427. What to do when a 9-5 doesn't fulfil you?

Most of us will spend the majority of our adult lives working. So why does the traditional 9–5 leave so many people feeling exhausted, trapped, unfulfilled, or quietly wondering: is this really it? In this episode, we explore the psychology behind why the 9–5 can feel so unnatural for some people, why work often becomes the centre of our identity, and what to do when the life you've been told should make you happy simply doesn't. This includes: Why the 9–5 often feels so draining The psychology of role engulfment and losing yourself to work The personality traits that predict whether you'll enjoy traditional employment The importance of hobbies, purpose, novelty, and community When it's time to consider a different path Practical advice for anyone dreaming of working for themselves Happy listening! Watch on Netflix: HERE https://netflix.com/thepsychologyofyour20s Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s https://substack.com/@thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Granger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Costs climb. Too little? Production slows. Granger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need, when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRanger, click Granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  I'm Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart Podcast. When you want to make your best, it's got to be McCormick. From everyday meals to hosting dinner parties, turn to McCormick. Their convenient, versatile flavors elevate every dish. McCormick has been and is an essential in the kitchen. Now they have a new line of signature seasonings crafted by flavor experts. With everyday favorites like garlic and olive oil, globally inspired ones like chimichurri, and more. McCormick's signature seasonings make it easier to add bold flavors that make each bite of your meal more delicious. Try the chimichurri blend that elevates grilled meats. Explore the full array of blends and find your favorite at McCormick.com.

• 1:14Jemma Sbeg?

  Along with your regular expenses like rent and student loans, tis also the season for gifts, travel, and those overpriced holiday-themed pop-up bars. Good thing Ally Bank is looking out for you and your money with fee-free ATMs. No tricks, no hidden fine print. Ally meets you where your money connects with life today, analyzing your spending to help you spend smarter and save faster for next holiday season. Ally Bank, banking built for life today. Learn more at ally.com. Use Allpoint or MoneyPass no-fee ATMs. Plus, Ally reimburses other ATM fees nationwide, up to $10 per statement cycle. Surprise savings is a feature of Ally Bank's savings account. Ally Bank, Member FDIC.

• 1:58Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realizing that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know, I'm such a data and information driven person. And I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable personalized insights that have made me more intentional

• 2:43Jemma Sbeg?

  and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 3:07Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s, and what they mean for our psychology.

• 3:27Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode. Today, let's talk about an exceedingly common anxiety and maybe unhappiness for many of us in our 20s, for many ages, actually, let's be honest. And that is the depressing state of the nine to five life and our increasing disillusionment with this way of living. For so many of us who go to college or who just have like professional ambitions of any kind, it kind of feels like the nine to five is our professional destiny. There's no avoiding it as hard as we try and

• 4:09Jemma Sbeg?

  For all of its downsides, like it does offer structure, it offers the structure and the kind of work that most of us are told we should want and that would reward us. If you study hard, you get the degree, you get the job, you work your way up, you buy your apartment, you buy your house, like that's gonna be a happy life. That's the blueprint. And if you don't love it, if you feel trapped by it, exhausted by it, very resentful of it, there's this assumption that maybe you're just lazy or you're ungrateful or you are expecting too much from your work life and it's unreasonable. But I actually don't think that's true. I think a lot of us are asking a very fair question, which is, why does a lifestyle we spend the majority of our adult years in so often feel deeply misaligned with how we naturally wanna live?

• 4:55Jemma Sbeg?

  Do I just have to get used to this? Or is it actually that wrong to want more? Here's the thing, I don't think the issue is always the job. It is the structure that it demands from us and the fact that for a lot of people, it will never be fulfilling, just the very nature of that work is not fulfilling. So what's next? That's what we're gonna discuss today. The three reasons why the nine to five may feel so unnatural for you personally. The personality factors that influence your tolerance or indeed your enjoyment of this lifestyle. How to love your life outside of your job using some very important psychological hacks. And I guess when it's time to risk it and try something beyond the traditional nine

• 5:36Jemma Sbeg?

  to five work lifestyle and your plan, your exact plan for doing so from somebody, i.e. myself, who has done it. So stay with us.

• 5:49Jemma Sbeg?

  Why is it that our nine to five can feel so unnatural and foreboding at times? Basically, why does it feel like such a scam that we spend our entire lives in service of somebody else with a weekend and maybe four weeks vacation? If you're lucky. I know that's a very dramatic take to call the nine to five life a scam. But I know it's a take that a lot of you have and I think that's for a few reasons. Number one, it is never just a nine to five. It's an eight to six if you include getting ready and your commute. It's an eight to seven or a eight to eight if you include overtime, maybe even longer. And then it's the fact that you're expected to be switched on and functioning

• 6:33Jemma Sbeg?

  for all those hours when we know that humans can only do focused intensive work for probably three to four hours max per day. And so that leaves us with very, very little energy to want or even to desire to do anything else when we get home other than eat, shower, maybe watch a TV show. Because of the fact our nine to five takes up the majority of our waking productive hours, it is very difficult to establish a personality beyond work because our motivation, our energy is depleted by the monotony of the routine, meaning that friendships, hobbies, personal goals, like those are the things that get deprioritized. This also has a secondary effect that I don't see many people talk about, which is that

• 7:15Jemma Sbeg?

  as our lives become more centralized around work, so does our mood, so does our emotional state. In psychology, this has a name, it's called identity fusion or role engulfment. It's a process wherein we lose ourselves to the roles we play as that role dominates over all other facets of our sense of being. So basically, our nine to five, if we're not careful, it doesn't just steal our hours, it steals our identity. Now, what happens if your nine to five then becomes really toxic? What if you stop enjoying work? Because that's fine if you're having a good time at work, but what if your boss or your coworker becomes unpleasant? What if deadlines pile up? There's no escaping from that when work is all you have.

• 8:00Jemma Sbeg?

  And when you have nothing else beyond that, if you have experienced role engulfment, you know, your interests, your purpose, your fulfillment becomes the job and you become, you become the job essentially. You know what also influences this? Definitely, we get burnt out when we have too much to do. We also struggle when we don't have enough to do. There was a twenty twenty one study that found that workplace and life satisfaction is equally influenced by being underworked as it is by being overworked. It's so hard to find like just that sweet spot with a nine to five where you're like equally challenged whilst also not feeling like entirely dominated by work.

• 8:40Jemma Sbeg?

  The routine and I think just the system in itself is not designed to work in parallel to a fulfilling life because of that reason. And because of many reasons, including reason number three, why your nine to five at time feels so unnatural. And that is that the nine to five was designed for when people had a domestic partner to take care of all the other little things that life requires from us. The first nine to five, like forty hour work week was introduced in the, in like the nineteen twenties, I think nineteen twenty six, almost a hundred years ago, when almost ninety percent of men who were working age were married by the age of forty. Women traditionally did not work once they got married. They were only, I think they only made up a quarter of the workplace.

• 9:23Jemma Sbeg?

  Meaning a nine to five model at that time operated on the idea that most people, men, you know, had someone who could do the groceries, could maintain their home, could take care of the kids, could organize their lives. So you're basically at this point doing the job of, of two people. And then you're expected to have a personality on top of it. An article I read from M I T actually found through historical records that pre-industrial workers actually had shorter days and work weeks than we do today. Back in those days, many people only worked like a hundred and fifty to a hundred and eighty days per year, according to UK historical data. They basically got a six month holiday due to the agricultural seasons, due to church holidays, due to how wages and hours were structured.

• 10:08Jemma Sbeg?

  I think it's a common misconception that these days, like we must have the most progressive working conditions and wages and hours of all time and that the nine to five is basically just normal and natural because of course it is. That's how it's always been. Research shows that it's not the most normal and natural and it's not the way it's always been. I think the final reason now nine to five can feel so stifling is because it's hard not to think. Eventually, like, is this all there is, especially in our twenties? There is definitely a level of like existential fatalism that there's no escaping this system. Like at some stage. We start projecting forward and forward and realizing, hey, wait, I have maybe like seventy to eighty good years here.

• 10:50Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm twenty two, twenty five, twenty nine now. I retire at sixty five. I have thirty to forty years of this left and then I get ten years to like. Enjoy this and that's all. That doesn't sound fair, nor does it sound like, you know, the dreams that you have as a child. Don't get me wrong, like, there are huge benefits to working a nine to five. I loved my nine to five for many reasons. Number one being financial stability. Number two being just life stability and the structure and the predictability and. Number three being community and the the people around you. And also the fact that, like, unlike working for yourself. When you leave the workplace, like when you go home for the day, for the most part, like you can switch off, right? Like you were allowed to leave because it's not.

• 11:33Jemma Sbeg?

  You like, it's not your business on the line. There's definitely perks, right? I'm not trying to villainize the nine to five, but. I do believe rather strongly actually that not everyone is meant to work a nine to five, just like. Not everyone is meant to be a doctor or an actor or a priest, and not everyone is meant to work for themselves either. There are certain personalities that when it comes to this nine to five lifestyle, they will never find fulfillment. There's no. Getting used to it regardless of the job, the workplace, the boss, the pay. All the other factors, it's it is the structure that they have a problem with. One theory of why this is comes from Jungian psychology.

• 12:13Jemma Sbeg?

  And the Jungian personality types. So if you aren't familiar with Carl Jung's theories, he is essentially one of the. Grandfathers of modern psychology and he believed that there are eight personality types and twelve. Archetypes that each person can essentially fall into. This has now been expanded, like, in the last a hundred years to the sixteen personality types, also known as your Myers-Briggs personality type indicator. That is based on Jung's work. I have to say, there's been debate recently around the legitimacy of this categorization. We have a full episode on this. I think it's like our personality test legit. You can go and listen to it. But if you do follow the theory, according to the sixteen personality types, only four out of the sixteen

• 12:58Jemma Sbeg?

  do well in a structured work environment. That is twenty-five percent, twenty-five percent of people only who have the attitude, temperament and personality to thrive and enjoy this type of work. These are the, I think, the logic, the defender, the executive and the console. Basically, they're like the Sentinel personality types. And these are the people who are practical, they're highly organized, they like tradition, they like structured environments, they're very self-motivated, they do well in a nine to five. The people who, according to the Myers-Briggs research, don't do well in a nine to five or don't find that it suits them are the analysts and the explorer types, also known as our entrepreneurs, entertainers,

• 13:43Jemma Sbeg?

  debaters, architect, adventurers. These aren't job titles, by the way, they are the names that they give to like the specific configuration of personality traits. And these groups represent those of us who are very independent, but also very spontaneous, very creative, very motivated. We can solve problems, we can work diligently, that's not the problem. We struggle to do that, though, when we're being instructed to do so, when we don't see the purpose behind why we've been asked to do it. When we don't care about what we're doing, when the schedule that we have to do something by is set by somebody else. Signs that this may be you is that it's not the job that's annoying you, it's the structure around the job.

• 14:25Jemma Sbeg?

  You may love the industry you're in, you may love what you do, you just wish you could do it more independently or for yourself, or you wish you could set your own hours. You wish you had more of a say over how it affected you in your life. This, my friends, is why you may have a secure job. You may be really grateful for the paycheck, but still completely disillusioned by the entire idea of working a nine to five for the rest of your life because, because of the way it sits in contrast to how you see yourself and your future. What is the solution to that? Because it's probably not just quit your job. That's too simplistic. It's like when people hear about your relationship problems and are like, just dump him.

• 15:09Jemma Sbeg?

  Like, yeah, get it over with, dump him. Like, that's not how it works. It's not how life works. At this stage, you have two options. You either have to find a way to tolerate the nine to five by making your life around it bigger and grander. Or you have to find an alternative to the nine to five that sits better with your desires and personality and make the transition to it. We're going to explore both of these alternatives after this short break. Stay with us.

• 15:43Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year. And something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns. So I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a thirty day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 16:28Jemma Sbeg?

  Who out here shops at CBS? Most of you, right? Well, if you're not signed up for extra care, you need to fix that because when you are, you get extra big deals. These are limited time offers you can find in store or in the app, and it's where being an extra care member pays off. So sign up now. If you're already shopping there, it's a no brainer. If you're not, well, you need to do something. Something about that as well. Signing up couldn't be easier. And once you've joined, the exclusive member discounts instantly appear. You don't have to do anything, no coupons. You'll just enjoy savings on the items you buy most. We're talking about savings on essentials like household items, snacks, health, personal care products, plus travel and seasonal stuff

• 17:10Jemma Sbeg?

  too. All right there in store. Couldn't be easier. Deals refresh every two weeks, so there's always something new, but they don't last long. Extra big deals with extra care. Instant savings made simple. Head to your local CVS or open the CVS app, look for extra big deals and start saving today. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on, and it's made for people who love

• 17:54Jemma Sbeg?

  to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 18:08Jemma Sbeg?

  These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. And we've all gone down an internet rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends. Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice, telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to health influencers,

• 18:49Jemma Sbeg?

  real people, and most importantly, doctors, to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 19:07Jemma Sbeg?

  No two journeys look alike. That's why SkyMiles is designed to move with you wherever life takes you. Fly, it flies with you on new adventures, family getaways, business trips, and the moments that matter most. Earn, it earns alongside your everyday life. It dines with you on special nights out, it streams alongside your favorite entertainment, rides through your daily routines, and helps turn everyday moments into something more. Redeem, it helps you redeem for what's next. From spontaneous weekend escapes to the trip that you have been dreaming about, to upgrading your next trip to a premium cabin experience, the miles you've earned along the way can help take you further. Access, and it unlocks access to exclusive, one-of-a-kind experiences and opportunities

• 19:52Jemma Sbeg?

  that make membership feel rewarding long before takeoff and long after landing. Because SkyMiles is more than a travel program, it is a membership that moves with you. Fly farther, earn every day, redeem your way and access more. Because when your membership is as unique as you are, there's no telling where your next journey will take you.

• 20:15Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, if the idea of the nine to five is leaving you feeling entirely empty, as I said, you have two options. Decent to your nine to five or find an alternative. We're gonna start with number one. Even if you aren't made for the nine to five lifestyle and you identify with one of those personality types we just spoke about, it may just be unavoidable based on what you've chosen to do, maybe even what you love to do. It may also be unavoidable just based on the time you're at in your life. I think for a lot of people in their twenties, the nine to five may not be forever, but it is for right now in order to establish your career. To avoid feeling crushed by it, we have to work on strengthening our out-of-work personality, interests, and life

• 21:00Jemma Sbeg?

  to be seismically bigger and more impressive than our workplace personality, interests, and life. This is what we're gonna do. Number one. We need to delineate between the two different sides of our life almost physically. And we can do that by creating any kind of ritual that signals to our brain that we are switching from one part of our life to the other at the beginning and end of the workday. Some examples of that are always having a shower as soon as you finish work, especially if you work from home. Always changing your clothes before you leave work, always going for a walk after you finish the day. Shutting your laptop, zipping it away, leaving it at work if you can, if you work from home, putting it in a specific location.

• 21:45Jemma Sbeg?

  Listening to the same song, same album, anything like that. You just need to signal to your brain, okay, like, we are done with that for the day. We are switching to this other area of our life, our personal life. And they sound really small and simple, but psychologically, having that kind of physical boundary is important because the brain relies heavily on contextual cues to mode and identity switch. Essentially, without a clear transition, your nervous system struggles to distinguish between work mode and personal life mode, especially when so many of us work from home or we just have to be digitally connected after hours.

• 22:25Jemma Sbeg?

  There's been this research into role transition theory, especially around people who work in high-pressure environments, so think like emergency rooms, prisons, policing. And it shows that having this kind of cue helps reduce emotional spillover because they have that cognitive separation between their professional identity and their personal identity. You have to be consistent with it, though. Like, it's not gonna register if you don't make it a routine. But that is like one of the first easiest ways to separate work from home. Number two, be careful of role enmeshment. By making sure that you have things you genuinely care about and are working towards outside of work.

• 23:07Jemma Sbeg?

  Think our twenties are when we are most at risk of our professional identity becoming our. Only identity because we're kind of like fresh to this new environment. We haven't really learnt like the balancing act. That people older than us have. And I honestly think, well, I can say that like the beginning of nine to five life, it's very romantic. It's really fun. It's kind of like being in the start of uni again, like you're friends with everybody, you're working hard, there's free snacks, like. Very easy to be like, this is great. This is so fun. This is so romantic.

• 23:40Jemma Sbeg?

  We don't wanna leave it until it's too late though. The biggest antidote to role enmeshment is hobbies. If you don't have something that you can genuinely say like you're passionate about and enjoy doing beyond your job or beyond what needs to be done to survive. Your likelihood of burnout is dramatically higher. We've all heard the statistic that you need five hobbies. One to stay fit, one to build knowledge, one to spark creativity, one to keep you sane and one to make you money. Just choose two of those categories to begin with. And if you're struggling with what you'd actually enjoy, like. Or if you find that like typical hobbies are like a bit boring to you.

• 24:21Jemma Sbeg?

  I think the essential route to finding what you would personally find interesting is going back to what you loved as a child. When you're, you just had the most purest kind of curiosity, desire and interest. Also, don't be afraid to like abandon a hobby and be in like a hobby dating stage. I love running. I love spending like three hours on a Sunday jogging around London or wherever I am, but I know for a lot of people like that sounds awful. It sounds like there's nothing worse. The point is to enjoy it. And if you're not. Make a list of like twenty five different things you wanna try and go at it. Make it a priority. Once a week, you're going to try. You're gonna date each of these hobbies until you find a match.

• 25:02Jemma Sbeg?

  Basically, what this is doing is outsourcing your identity a little bit more, outsourcing your passion to something beyond work. In a similar vein, have specific things that you do each night of the week, or at least some nights of the week. In particular, I would say like two to three days per week. You should have something on where you're not just going home and you're going and doing things. Similar to the rule of five hobbies, I like the idea of the rule of three evenings. Every week you need one evening to do something with yourself, one evening to do something with your friends, one evening to do something for your development. This is about injecting novelty back into the monotony of the nine to five routine.

• 25:44Jemma Sbeg?

  By forcing yourself to fill your calendar deliberately with other things. One more rule, big rule episode, but another one that helps bring novelty back. Into the boringness of full-time work is the rule of two, two, two. This is funnily enough, a tip I actually stole from relationship maintenance research. It says every two weeks, you've got to go out for a novel fun evening. Every two months, you have to go away for a weekend. Every two years, you have to go away for two weeks, two weeks a month, something like that, can't remember. The brilliance of this, yes, obviously it comes from relationship therapy, but the brilliance of this is that you have something to look forward to.

• 26:26Jemma Sbeg?

  Part of the pessimism around the nine to five is that when we imagine the future, it looks awfully like the present and awfully a lot like the near past. And that loss of expectation and anticipation also means a loss of curiosity and optimism. I know it can feel like, God, I have to have all these rules. It's an upward battle. To like have a life that I actually enjoy, but it does work. And I think having the nine to five not be the only present structure in your life. Is how you bring back meaning to your life, because it is not the only priority. It is not the dominant force. Finally, before we get into the, should I just quit advice?

• 27:08Jemma Sbeg?

  You need to genuinely assess whether you have a vision for yourself and why you're doing this job. One of the hardest parts of the nine to five routine isn't always the work itself, as we've been saying. It's the feeling that your life is happening in service of something meaningless. Psychologists call this goal incongruence. It's when your daily actions, identity, purpose, whatever. It's in a state of disharmony with what you actually feel you wanna do or deserve to do. Your brain, when it has that goal incongruence, is far less able to tolerate stress, boredom, repetition, delayed gratification. There was a two thousand eighteen study published in the journal Frontiers of Psychology and they

• 27:51Jemma Sbeg?

  found that people whose jobs gave them A, a broader purpose in that they felt they were, they were doing some kind of greater good, or there was a greater good they were striving for, or B, gave them self-realization, basically a sense of autonomy, authenticity, self-expression. They felt better not just about their work-life balance, but about their lives. Does your job provide either of those two things, a broader purpose or a sense of self-fulfillment or self-realization? You have to seriously ask yourself, like, why am I doing this job and is it a satisfying reason? Is it because of stability? Is it because of opportunities? Is it because of what it allows you to do for others? Is it because it's impressive? Is it because it was just the first job you applied for and you happened to get it?

• 28:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Is it because everybody else at your uni was going into this discipline, you may as well follow them? Why? Why are you doing this? And if that reason isn't enough, once again, no lifestyle change is gonna fix that because doing something you feel has no meaning for forty hours a week is not easily reversible. So this is when we arrive at the, maybe I need to just get out of here, point of this conversation. And by here, I mean not just the job, but like the nine to five lifestyle. First thing to consider, before you jump the gun, is there a way that you can do the parts of your job that you love in a different format before you quit? So like freelance, shift work, is there a way that you can hone in on the one part

• 29:19Jemma Sbeg?

  of the job that you like and do that in a specialized way? I think jumping onto parallel tracks before diverting the path is obviously a possibility. Secondly, is there just any way of doing this job in a way that is satisfying? What would you risk by trying out that path before you risked the entire structure? I think it does eventually come down to a cost-benefit analysis of, you know, if I've, again, seventy good years on the earth and I have one life and I'm in my twenties and I have more freedom than I ever will and I'm, if I'm being honest with myself, I'm not very happy, like, would I continue, should I continue to choose this? Not should I keep doing this, would I choose this for myself every day from now? What are the pro-cons of that?

• 30:04Jemma Sbeg?

  I think it will feel very scary to to walk away from something stable. But this is something we often miss when we sit down and do a pro cons list of like, do I stay or do I go? Do I change? Do I stay the same? We underestimate, we don't properly assign the frustration and hopelessness of the years ahead of us. And the cumulative load of that satisfaction. We often just account for our unhappiness right now. We think it's gonna pass. And it doesn't. It just turns into apathy and resentment. We underestimate that and we overestimate the difficulty, specifically the emotional difficulty of this leap of faith. There is this amazing psychological model called the roller coaster of change.

• 30:49Jemma Sbeg?

  It was developed by Elizabeth Hubler Ross. She's a Swiss psychiatrist. And it talks about how we're gonna feel our worst about a decision the moment that we make it. As we realize, you know, we need to let go, there's nothing left for me here, we're disorientated, we're angry. That's when we're gonna feel really bad. The moment we say, oh my god, I realize I need to change is when we're gonna feel the most intensely. But it's also when you get to work. And as soon as you're at that low point, she assumes, she says, things do improve as you move through these other stages of exploration, purpose, problem solving. All of these activities of rediscovery will alone reengage a part of your brain that you previously probably weren't using very much.

• 31:34Jemma Sbeg?

  So you will begin to feel a sense of meaning and purpose coming back into your life, even if it is scary. Because you have something that you meaningfully feel you are working towards, even if the outcome is unknown. If your next question is, okay, what do I do instead? I actually don't know what I wanna do. This is a very simple exercise that may be able to reveal that for you. It consists of, I think it's like four or five questions. The first, what task do I naturally find myself engaged in without even trying? Basically, where does my flow state come from? What do I enjoy? Secondly, what do people naturally come to me for help with? What does that kind of reveal about what you are naturally good at?

• 32:19Jemma Sbeg?

  How important is money to you? And how important is purpose? If you're being very honest, would you be willing to sacrifice one for the other? In ten years' time, how do you picture your ideal workday? When are you getting up? Where are you working? Are you in an office? Are you surrounded by people? Are you outdoors? Are you doing deep work, busy work, creative work, physical work? What does it look like? How do you feel? And in fifty years' time, what will you be most proud to say that you have done that you haven't yet accomplished? What do you keep coming back to here? I had a professor say to me once, your purpose isn't that hard to find. It is the thing you think about every day, but talk yourself out of every night.

• 33:04Jemma Sbeg?

  If you think it's your calling, I don't think it ever stops calling. But you get very good at ignoring it if you don't pick up after the first few rings. I think deep down, you know, you know what you want to do. Now it's worth examining, like, why am I afraid? Really stop and think for a second. Like, what is that deep fear keeping you in this unhappy place? Is it that you'll never be enough? Is it that you'll fail? That people will be mad at you, embarrassed for you, that they'll see you trying and that will be whatever, cringe? I think it comes down to two separate problems. The first is a practicality problem, the second is an ego problem. And they're different and they need to be addressed in different ways. We're gonna talk about how after this final short break.

• 33:55Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year. And something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns so I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a thirty day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month.

• 34:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Of whoop. Who out here shops at CVS? Most of you, right? Well, if you're not signed up for extra care, you need to fix that because when you are, you get extra big deals. These are limited time offers you can find in store or in the app, and it's where being an extra care member pays off. So sign up now. If you're already shopping there, it's a no brainer. If you're not, well, you need to do something about that as well. Signing up couldn't be easier. And once you've joined, the exclusive member discounts instantly appear. You don't have to do anything, no coupons. You'll just enjoy savings on the items you buy most. We're talking about savings on essentials like household items, snacks, health, personal care products, plus travel and seasonal stuff too.

• 35:22Jemma Sbeg?

  All right there in store, couldn't be easier. Deals refresh every two weeks, so there's always something new, but they don't last long. Extra big deals with extra care. Instant savings made simple. Head to your local CVS or open the CVS app. Look for extra big deals and start saving today. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise,

• 36:06Jemma Sbeg?

  whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 36:19Jemma Sbeg?

  These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. And we've all gone down an internet rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends. Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice, telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeart Media's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Episode Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly,

• 37:03Jemma Sbeg?

  doctors to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 37:19Jemma Sbeg?

  No two journeys look alike. That's why Sky Miles is designed to move with you wherever life takes you. Fly, it flies with you on new adventures, family getaways, business trips, and the moments that matter most. Earn, it earns alongside your everyday life. It dines with you on special nights out. It streams alongside your favorite entertainment, rides through your daily routines, and helps turn everyday moments into something more. Redeem, it helps you redeem for what's next. From spontaneous weekend escapes to the trip that you have been dreaming about, to upgrading your next trip to a premium cabin experience, the miles you've earned along the way can help take you further. Access, and it unlocks access to exclusive, one of a kind experiences and opportunities

• 38:04Jemma Sbeg?

  that make membership feel rewarding long before takeoff and long after landing. Because Sky Miles is more than a travel program. It is a membership that moves with you. Fly farther, earn every day, redeem your way and access more. Because when your membership is as unique as you are, there's no telling where your next journey will take you.

• 38:26Jemma Sbeg?

  So when it comes to like making the decision to leave your nine to five behind, addressing the problem of ego is first. And it means being okay with not being able to control how people perceive you because of your choices. There is going to be judgment. There's probably going to be a lot of fear from people who love you that's going to look like judgment. What we have to return to is our why. Over and over again, why am I doing this? Why is this important to me? I think you know your answer. It's important to you because you don't believe you deserve to be unhappy, because you want more, because you know you have a calling, because you know yourself. You think and you believe, and you have to believe that work can be enjoyable, because you have to try.

• 39:10Jemma Sbeg?

  That's your why. Everybody has one. And a twenty twenty one study found that having a why behind a major life decision or change that you can put into a single statement and point to and say, this is why I'm doing this. It greatly impacts your follow through, greatly impacts your perseverance, your success. And remind yourself, like, you're not without backup options. You've already done Plan B. Like, a lot of people go in with Plan A and don't have Plan B sorted out. You've done Plan B. You went back to front. There is no, like, issue in that you can eventually return to that job that you're gonna leave. That's always gonna be there. You've done the training, you've got the, you've done the degree, you've got the work experience, like,

• 39:54Jemma Sbeg?

  you are in a better position than many to now take a risk because you do have fallback. I also think we need to be aware of, like, a lot of the time, the judgment that we think or know will come from other people is really just desire that they have that can't be expressed. They are looking at your choice, your decision, and it's easier to say that's gonna fail or to say, what are they thinking? Then to acknowledge what this person is really thinking deep down, which is that why didn't I have the guts to do that? And the fear that maybe it will end up turning out really well for you. And they're gonna have to face the fact that it could have turned out really well for them as well. So just be conscious of why and how other people's opinions

• 40:38Jemma Sbeg?

  about your choices is probably more of a reflection of them than of you. Next is the practicality problem. As someone who has quit their nine to five for this very podcast, I wanna tell you some things to be prepared for. I think we definitely glamorize quitting the nine to five grind because, of course we do. Like, unless you're part of the twenty five percent who are made for that lifestyle, like, there are challenges and you're gonna be unhappy. But there are also challenges with the, like, I quit my nine to five and I've never been more fulfilled lifestyle that we see. And things that you probably wouldn't think about. The first one, which you probably do know, is that it's very expensive.

• 41:20Jemma Sbeg?

  They, they do tell you this, I will say, but I just think practically speaking, you need to be prepared for a lifestyle adjustment. So I personally had, from memory, like, three to four months of expenses saved up. And I did have my, like, door back into my nine to five that I was very grateful for. It was still a risk. The risk was worth it for me. Just because something is a risk, though, doesn't mean it needs to be spontaneous. And so I really took as much time as I could to prepare. Save, save, save again. Build alongside your nine to five for as long as you can, if you can. And have a bit of a squirrel mentality. You know how squirrels like bury, hide their food, hide their nuts to survive the winter?

• 42:04Jemma Sbeg?

  I did that as well before I quit my nine to five. In the six months kind of leading up to me quitting, I would, yes, I was saving, but I was also like putting money onto an emergency debit card that I then put away for a rainy day that I didn't have access to. I also got my car appraised, so I knew what that was worth and what I was working with. Um, I also picked up tutoring work and I got paid in cash. And I wouldn't spend that money and I would hide it away so that like on a rainy day it was there. The squirrel mentality was really helpful as well because it stopped me from feeling like this was gonna be a disaster. And then I was gonna fall flat on my face financially. Like, I felt like there were different levels that I would drop to when I knew like, oh my god, maybe this isn't working out. And I was so lucky that

• 42:49Jemma Sbeg?

  you know, it all did work out and I never had to use a lot of those things. But again, a lot of it was psychological and then I felt like I had the safety net. The second thing they don't tell you, and as a pathological extrovert, I wish that somebody had said this. It is very, very lonely. When you quit your nine to five, there is this period of like elation and excitement and like you're pursuing your dreams and you're building something and you're trying something new. Unless you have friends who are also doing that, or you have friends in like creative industries or who run their own businesses, a lot of the time you're like, I am waiting, I'm gonna spend my whole time waiting for somebody to also

• 43:31Jemma Sbeg?

  clock off from their nine to five so that we can hang out. And it can, it's a very unique situation to be in, to feel like, oh, nobody else really knows what I'm going through, but also I chose this. I wish I just would have a friend in this. And it can be quite an isolating thing. And the third thing is boundaries. If you thought you didn't have boundaries at your nine to five. Pursuing a big dream, working for yourself, pursuing something, I don't know, creative or a business, you will have less boundaries there because now you are the boss, the employee, the accounting department, H R, social media, you're everybody. And you're not just doing this for somebody else. You're doing this for you.

• 44:13Jemma Sbeg?

  It all counts, like your input is directly correlated to the output. And yes, there's a bit of luck kind of thrown in there, but with the traditional job, like you're a team and there's somebody else who can help you. There's also somebody else that you can kind of blame. You are gonna work much harder. Unless you were like a doctor or like in finance or in a very high pressure job, I would say nine out of ten times, you're gonna work longer, more intense hours on this new path. Again, it's worth it because you get the full impact of that output and you don't have to share it. And also, I think the dedication and motivation is much more accessible than it is when you're working for somebody else.

• 44:57Jemma Sbeg?

  Perhaps psychologically because you have a clearer vision and your goal is clear. You know what you want, you know what you're after, it's there, this is for you. But be warned, there are some just other considerations. So some things to include in your, I wanna quit my nine to five plan. Make sure you know what your explicit vision is for why you're doing this. Can you see it? Can you write it? Can you think about it? Can you feel it? What are three things that you're gonna do in the first week, first month, first three months to execute that vision? Make sure you have practical steps. Have you thought about how you're gonna manage money? How are you gonna manage connection and how are you gonna manage boundaries? Are you willing to sacrifice things in that department?

• 45:42Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm hoping your answer is yes. And what is the backup plan that doesn't require you to go back to your nine to five?

• 45:50Jemma Sbeg?

  I think you can have two backup plans, right? The nine to five is always gonna be there. The effort that you've put into that is always gonna be there. What's your other plan for this more? I work for myself, creative, big dream, independent lifestyle? That won't require you to have to have made this big leap and then go all the way back. Maybe just go slightly back. I don't think there's any shame in going back to the drawing board or having that plan B. There's been heaps of times where I've, you know, something wasn't working. And I think it's definitely this evolve or die mentality. And that's probably something you were missing in your nine to five evolution. But just be prepared that it's not gonna be this easy glamorous thing that a lot of people talk about online.

• 46:34Jemma Sbeg?

  It is a struggle. I still think, again, it's worth it. And at the end of the day, you're probably at this point where you have little to lose and a lot to gain. Right? The job that you've been doing or are currently doing has already taken all that it can from you. And I think when you get to this very existential point of like, what am I doing this for? What am I here for? What, like, why am I wasting my time?

• 47:05Jemma Sbeg?

  Pushing, there is no pushing through that. The only thing that's on the other side of that is just to become completely switched off and resentful. So if you have, even in the slightest capacity, the desire to move beyond this lifestyle, the capability, the financial position, or you could put yourself in a financial position where you should give this a go. I think just even having the experience of three, four, five months of trying is gonna be worth so much. So that at least you can go back to your nine to five, if it doesn't work out and say, hey, but at least I didn't have to sit here for the next thirty, forty years wondering and wishing.

• 47:51Jemma Sbeg?

  And thinking, what if, what else, what could have been? So that is kind of your guide. In summary, I wanna say if you are struggling with your nine to five right now and you are feeling like it is crushing you, you are most certainly not alone. I hear about it all the time. Because I think this life, the way that it is set up, it's no longer just the nine to five. It's so much more than that. It's so time consuming, soul crushing in a way that I think. I think that we can't really understand until we're living it. It was made, this idea of the nine to five was constructed in a different time. And it's okay to want more and it is possible to have more.

• 48:33Jemma Sbeg?

  I think, again, there are certain personalities for whom the nine to five will never be fulfilling. Maybe that is you. And if it is, you have those two options. Either de-prioritize your nine to five whilst you're still in it. Or seek an alternative and take the risk, especially if you're in your twenties, like, why not? Like, obviously, if you have a valid reason, don't take this as like, I'll be disappointed in you or like, you're giving up on your dreams. Because I know it's very complicated and it's not an easy decision. But if the reason is quite paper thin, if it's a bit of a paper wall that you could push down, I think you kind of owe it to yourself to try. So I hope this has been motivating.

• 49:16Jemma Sbeg?

  If you have made it this far into the episode and you're listening on Spotify, leave a comment down below. What is the life that you want beyond the nine to five? What is the dream job? Maybe you don't dream of a, of labor or dream of a job. What is the dream life that you are looking for beyond this structure? I hope that you find it. I think that you are absolutely capable of doing it. I don't wanna like, I sit here and say, oh, because I've done it, you can, because I know everybody's circumstances are different, but.

• 49:46Jemma Sbeg?

  If you have ever thought like, is it worth it and will it work out? The answer is yes, and I do think that you owe it to yourself. You can watch this episode on Netflix and all other episodes by following the links in the description. You can read the transcript of this episode on Substack, also available in the description. Instagram, links to my book, all those things are down there as well. If you wanna do some exploring. Again, I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any further thoughts that you wanna share, you can DM me on Instagram and I would be happy to to listen to them. But until next time, be safe, be kind, especially be gentle with yourself if you're finding yourself very uh burnt out by work. I feel you. We will talk very, very soon.

• 50:35Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year and something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns so I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30-day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 51:19Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is. Lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 51:57Jemma Sbeg?

  Hi, this is Gemma Speck. Taking care of yourself doesn't have to mean completely changing your routine. Naturewise Vitamin D3 is an easy way to support immune, bone and muscle health every single day. And because quality matters, Naturewise has one of the first NSF certified Vitamin D3 currently on the market. Plus, it's non-GMO, gluten-free and third-party tested. Visit naturewise.com to explore their Vitamin D3 options and find the one that's right for you. Naturewise.com. You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what Clinique Moisture Surge 100-Hour Moisturizer is for.

• 52:41Jemma Sbeg?

  Moisture Surge 100-Hour Moisturizer absorbs instantly and hydrates for 100 hours for plump, glowing skin. That's right, 100 hours. It is a lightweight, oil-free gel cream, safe for sensitive skin. It's allergy-tested and fragrance-free. I use this all the time. It makes my skin feel so fresh and plump and glowy. Even under makeup, I still see an amazing difference. It never leaves my skin oily or tacky. Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100-Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.