68: Inauthentic Extreme Ownership, Excessive Self-Blaming, The Grammar Nazi, Loyalty in Marriage and Service, Jiu Jitsu VS Boxing for 7 y/o, Artificial Intelligence Soldiers.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:04:56 - Working out EVERY DAY? 0:27:31 - What's better for a 7 y/o boy? Boxing, or Jiu Jitsu? And Why? 0:37:12 - How to prepare for Podcasts. Focus for Max Benefit. 0:46:30 - Inauthentic Extreme Ownership and Excessive Self-Blaming. 0:54:04 - Why Literature is good degree to pursue, and the importance of Language. 1:07:00 - Future Robots Soldiers in the Future. The Threat Artificial Intelligence. 1:12:56 - Effectiveness of Jocko's Favorite Submission Holds (Jiu Jitsu). 1:15:04 - Dealing with Push-Back from your team early in the plan. 1:22:28 - Opinions on leadership training West Point and other service Academies. 1:27:39 - Advantages and disadvantages of body types in Special Operations Forces. 1:30:26 - Dealing with emotions and being "hangry" when fasting. 1:44:16 - Difficulty learning Jiu Jitsu VS learning Wrestling. 2:05:42 - Loyalty in marriage to another Service Member. Loyalty to service vs. loyalty at home. 2:15:43 - Specific places and times to reflect on fallen comrades. 2:22:17 - Support, Cool Onnit http://www.onnit.com/jocko, Amazon https://www.amazon.com/?&tag=jocko20-20&camp=216797&creative=498533&linkCode=ur1&adid=1DKYGWXQBV0KNEZ3MZZX&, JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, with Jocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, (Jocko's Kids' Book) Way of the Warrior Kid http://amzn.to/2n9k6I9, and The Muster002 http://www.extremeownership.com 2:44:45 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 68 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. So we've been doing some Facebook Lives lately, Facebook Live, and they've been pretty cool, interacting, getting a lot of questions, but here's the deal. On the Facebook Live, I think the first one I did, I got 3,000 comments or questions in one hour, and it's something like 40 or 50 questions a minute, which is one a second, which means you can't answer all of them. And I started looking at some of the questions and there were some really good questions on there.

• 0:44Jocko Willink?

  And there was also a lot of common questions that pop up that maybe I don't address or haven't addressed. And I said, you know what, if a lot of people are asking the same question, there must be a need to know or people are interested in what the answer is. So I kind of threw together some of those questions from Facebook Live primarily. There's a couple of other ones that I got from Twitter and/or Facebook Message. Is that what it's called? Facebook Message Messenger? Yeah. Like when somebody direct messages? Right. And you know, with that, if there's people that are sending me messages and stuff through social media

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  and even through email, I can't answer all of them right now. I just can't and I apologize. And I appreciate what you're sending me, but I can't always get to them all. There's a lot of them coming in. It's not, I don't have enough time to answer them all. I look at them and you know, I'll try and throw back an answer real quick sometimes, but a lot of times I just don't have time to answer them all. Sometimes, yeah, I read them all. I do read them all. But you know, when I'm looking at a limited amount of time and I have a ton of Facebook questions coming in, it can be hard.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  Hey, if you do want an answer, let me give you something that is helpful. If you want an answer, ask like a really simple question.

• 2:19Jocko Willink?

  Yes or no, or should I do this or that? You know, should I? Go to college or join the military? Based on the situation I'm in right now? That I don't have any money and I'd have to borrow money to go to college? What do you think I should do? So, th- there's a couple of options there for me to answer. You know what I mean? It's gonna be pretty straightforward. On that one, I'm gonna say, join the military. You wanna join the military anyways? Go get after it. Boom, done. So, but if you give these long questions that then? You're looking for an open-ended kinda answer? It's hard for me to get around to them. Now, those are also questions that I normally might pull into the podcast? Because they do require more of a response? So if that's what you're looking for? Yes, that's a good way to send it. On Facebook or on Twitter.

• 3:03Jocko Willink?

  Hey, if you need a, if it's an open-ended answer that I'm gonna have to think about or, or I'm gonna have to discuss with you? That's cool. But if you just need an answer about something? Just answer, ans- ask a, a direct question, I'll get around to it. But during the Facebook Live, there was a ton of questions and it was really cool. I, I'd never done Facebook Live before? And? Got a lot of good questions. So? With that? Let's go to this, uh, some Q and A? From? The Facebooky boy.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And Twitter, I'm imagining.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  And Twitter, yeah. These primarily came from Facebook Live.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Oh dang, okay.

• 3:41Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I went through? Every comment.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 3:45Jocko Willink?

  So it took some time?

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:47Jocko Willink?

  But especially since my computer started lagging?

• 3:51Jocko Willink?

  Which, and I know I talk about being mad at computers or at printers and copy machines? But when my computer's lagging, that also? Can get me angry.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, the computer's pushing it on, pushing its luck.

• 4:01Jocko Willink?

  I just want the thing to work, quickly.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the whole thing though. That's the whole thing with computers. It's like? Of course you want it to work more quickly? The, like, if you get a cheap computer, chances are the main thing? Oh yeah, so you have, you have expectations? That, yeah. Makes sense.

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  I want the thing to work, quickly.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22Jocko Willink?

  I almost got a T1 line. You know what that is? Internet-wise?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  I thought that that was like, old school.

• 4:28Jocko Willink?

  No, it's the, T1 line is, is when you're, you're?

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Getting it.

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  And, and they guarantee 99.9%?

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  You know, up and going and never break, never have any issues. I almost got a T1 line.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Get a T1 line. I think.

• 4:46Jocko Willink?

  I didn't do it.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Hey, that's up to you, obviously. And with that, I think, uh, let's go to the question, the first question.

• 4:55Jocko Willink?

  Questions.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Okay, Jocko.

• 4:57Jocko Willink?

  First quest.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Do you work out every day?

• 5:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah, this is a question that a bunch of people were asking me. And I thought it was pretty evident that I do work out every day, which I do. And then I also thought that there was a little misleading

• 5:13Jocko Willink?

  statement in the Success Magazine article. And again, I don't know what I said on some of these questions, or how I answered it at the time, or what I explained, or how well I explained it, but there was a misleading statement that, that on this particular day, I had already lifted in the morning at 04:30, and now I was lifting again at 9:00. Or whatever time it was. And then I was gonna lift again. It was like, made it seem like I was lifting just over and over again throughout the day. Which generally, I don't do. Generally, when I wake up in the morning, I lift. And by lift, I mean workout. By workout, that might mean lift, it might mean do calisthenics, it might mean... Sometimes it just means stretching, right?

• 5:59Jocko Willink?

  But rarely do I do any stretch. But like, yesterday, I was feeling a little under the weather for two days. Wasn't full on sick. My, some of my family members got sick. They were really sick. And when it hit me, it didn't hit me as hard. Cause I, you know, fought against, against the illness. So I was a little bit sick, but one day I just went, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna go in and stretch. The next day, I, it was like leg day. You know, I was gonna go do squats. And I did squats, but if anybody was to come and witness that workout, I would have, be ashamed of myself, because all I did was basically go in there, go through the motion, put a little weight on the bar move.

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  But yes, I do. I work out every, so, so even when I'm sick, I'm gonna work out, right? Gonna work out. And I'm gonna do something, because I think it's healthy to do something. Now, another question that people say is like, do you lift and do jiu-jitsu in the same day? Yes, absolutely. All the time. Almost daily. Another branch question of that one is, do you lift before jujitsu or after jujitsu? I like to lift before jujitsu. I want to go into jujitsu a little bit tired. As a matter of fact, some of the young guns at the gym,

• 7:13Jocko Willink?

  they'll, they'll say, oh, you know, I'll go into roll with them at night and the young guns will say, oh, I already worked out, you know, I already worked out today. I'm not all fresh. And I always say, well, you think I'm fresh? You think I've been doing all day? So.

• 7:30Jocko Willink?

  So, so yeah, I like to work out before I do jujitsu and I like to surf. If there's good waves or even marginal waves, get a little surf session in. And if I can get, I don't like to use the word cardio, but I'll use it. It's nice to go for a little run, a little jog. So that's sort of like my grand slam of day. Oh, the three. No, four. Four, yeah. If I work out, you know, lift, calisthenics or whatever, then do some kind of a, again, I'll use the word cardio, go for a run, go for a jog, go for a swim, surf. That's awesome. And then you throw the jujitsu on top of it. That's a grand slam for me.

• 8:15Jocko Willink?

  I love those days and those are the days you go to sleep at night, you know, those are the days you, you, you, you go to bed and you feel tired. Yeah. You know, that's one of the things in, in the book that's coming out, the field manual. Discipline equals freedom field manual. I talk about sleep and one of the things I talk about is, you know, people are saying, how, how do you fall asleep at night? Cause a lot of people, you know, we all, everyone has trouble getting up in the morning. But then when you start saying, okay, well, I'm going to go to bed earlier, people have trouble falling asleep too. Yeah. There's a lot of people, even me. So what do you do to fall asleep earlier? I got a couple of steps in the field manual. One of the steps in the field manual is be more tired. Yeah. How do you be more tired? You work out harder during the day. You drain yourself physically and mentally during the day.

• 9:00Jocko Willink?

  That way, when you go, go to bed at night, you will fall asleep. Yeah. And I got the whole thing laid out in there, but that's one of them. One other note, so that's it, you know, do I work out every day? Yes. Do something every day. Do something. Yeah. Do something. Even if you, even if all you have is 10 minutes. Do a hundred burpees, you know, just do a hundred burpees, just at a minimum, make that happen. But also, sick, if you're sick, do what you can, get a little sweat going. If you're injured, do what you can. If you're sick, caveat, that doesn't mean go train jujitsu. Cause if you're sick, you make everybody else sick.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:37Jocko Willink?

  At jujitsu, and that's not cool. So if you're that kinda sick, don't do it. But, other than that, yes, I work out every day, I try and train every day. I would stay active.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:51Jocko Willink?

  Bottom line.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  It's gonna be hard though, to try to mask your routine onto someone else. You know, like you, you can't just go into, let's say I'm a guy, I work out one, it, once a day, and it's like, just let's say it's a strenuous workout, not super strenuous, not like, hard. I can't just be like, hey, Jocko works out four times a day on his good dance, so let me start doing that. Like, you can not only get hurt, but it, it won't work for you.

• 10:19Jocko Willink?

  And that's another misconception, is that every single day that I go, that I work out, I'm going level twenty-nine, just self-destruction.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:31Jocko Willink?

  You can't do that. You can't do that. It doesn't, you, you can't do it. You just can't do it. I mean, it's not like you can't do it, cause it'll hurt you, you just can't do it.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, you do squats, heavy, one day, or you go through three or four days of going really hard. The fifth, sixth day, one of those days, you're gonna be like, okay, I need to back off today. Whatever day it is, so I'll, I'll, you do some kinda workout, I'll still go, I'll still get it on. But I'm not gonna go level twenty-nine, you know, self-destruction. When I was going to bootcamp, there was, uh, they would say, there was a room attached to the main hall, the main barracks where everyone was, this open bay barracks. And if you got in trouble for something, they'd send you to this side room, and they'd say, "Go in there and self-destruct."

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  Which meant you did, where you did, and they had a list of exercises, and it was, you know, jumping jacks, pushups, you know, sit up, just a bunch of random. Calisthenics.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  What, when they'd send you and they'd give you that?

• 11:32Jocko Willink?

  It was already, I think it was posted.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:35Jocko Willink?

  And then you went in there and you did one of every exercise, then two of every exercises, then three and then four and then five and then six. And one of my buddies, who ended up being a SEAL, who's a great dude, who I went to bootcamp with, he's like, he's the only guy I went to Navy bootcamp with and we both ended up in the SEAL teams. But the, the chief that was running it was like, you know, whatever, Seaman Apprentice. He goes, get in there and self-destruct. And this guy was a wrestler, a college wrestler, legit college wrestler, great dude. And he went in there and, you know, normally people are done by whatever, you know, five or six repetitions or maybe eight repetitions. He was in there for like an hour.

• 12:18Jocko Willink?

  He came out just dripping with sweat. It was, I knew, I knew he was in there, uh, getting after it for sure.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, the wrestler version of self-destruct.

• 12:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's different than some, you know, guy from wherever that's, you know.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  A non-wrestler.

• 12:35Jocko Willink?

  A non-wrestler, yes.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  That's so true.

• 12:37Jocko Willink?

  Put quite simply, yes.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Thanks, they just kind of leave it to you to self-destruct.

• 12:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and that's right, he was the, that's what it was. He was the master at arms in my bootcamp, which I don't even remember.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Who, the wrestler guy?

• 12:50Jocko Willink?

  The wrestler guy, he was, he was the master at arms. We went, we were both from New England too. And so we had driven the, the, the, flown down there to Florida on the same plane. And of course, we were both kind of, you know, what are you going in the Navy for? I want to be a SEAL. What are you going for? I want to be a SEAL too. So we kind of had a little bit of, okay, well, at least this guy's kind of getting after it in some way. And honestly, he was a college wrestler. I was probably like a little punk to him because he's thinking, what is this? I was just a high school kid, go.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Non-wrestler.

• 13:19Jocko Willink?

  Non-wrestler going, uh, I want to be a Navy SEAL.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  And, yeah, so anyways, he was the master at arms. That's what he was like, master at arms, get in that room and self-destruct. So that was a good time. So, no, I do not self-destruct on a daily basis.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:36Jocko Willink?

  But I do get it on every day and definitely push myself on a regular basis.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's obviously gonna depend on what you, like, what is the results? Cause you're not at a point where you're like, hey, I need to really. Get in shape. I need to lose

• 13:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I am.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  25 pounds.

• 13:56Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm not saying that. You know what is interesting though is the days where I'm getting the, the, the grand slam going, when I get to jujitsu, I feel good.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:07Jocko Willink?

  The, I train way better when I'm in the zone, when I've been working out, when I've had a good workout, I've surfed. I show up to jujitsu, I feel great. I don't feel, I'll feel tired, but I feel better.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, it's kind of like your second round of rolling.

• 14:21Jocko Willink?

  If for whatever reason, I don't get a workout in the morning, or I only get a really short workout in the morning, and then I go train jujitsu. I've, I never feel optimal.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:31Jocko Willink?

  And as a matter of fact, I have a personal superstition slash curse in my own head, that if I don't work out in the morning, I am gonna get injured. So, so that forces me to work out even when I don't want to.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:44Jocko Willink?

  Cause I say, well, I'm gonna train tonight. I don't want to get injured, cause there's been, I think two injuries that I've gotten from jujitsu. Both of them happened when I didn't work out in the morning. I'm not kidding. One of them, yeah, I didn't work out in the morning and I showed up and went to train and one of them hurt my ankle really bad, like a high ankle sprain. And that was bad, but I didn't work out in the morning.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  That must have been it.

• 15:08Jocko Willink?

  And I think the, yeah, well, apparently.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Had to be.

• 15:10Jocko Willink?

  And I think the other one was, I think the other one was a knee injury. No, it wasn't a knee injury. I think it was a shoulder injury. Anyways, whatever it was, also that day, didn't work out in the morning for some pathetic reason, you know?

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:25Jocko Willink?

  Didn't work out. So, for me, workout, it's mental prep, it's physical prep, gets you ready for the evening, the jujitsu.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  I think that's, I think that's called availability bias. When you kind of, you draw that conclusion, you know, in your specific case, like, oh, it stands out in your mind on this emotional level. So it's like, you know, you accept.

• 15:46Jocko Willink?

  It really happened though. So never mind your cognitive biases. I'm telling you what happened.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  I understand what happened, but you have to consider all the times in your whole jujitsu career that you didn't work out.

• 15:57Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  That was the only two.

• 15:59Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, it's such a small number. It's such a small number. I bet you it is, I bet you there's 10 times.

• 16:09Jocko Willink?

  In the past 10 years that I didn't work out in the morning and I and I trained jujitsu that night.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, two out of 10, that's bad odds.

• 16:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Can't you can't consider you can't conclude that.

• 16:19Jocko Willink?

  And that's probably pretty generous. It might be like five because sometimes I'm on the road. And then I didn't work out, but I didn't train jujitsu, but for me to be here in my hometown with access to my garage gym and the jujitsu. For me to just say, oh, I'm just not going to work out today. I don't say that.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Right. It's not very common.

• 16:41Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say if it was a muscle strain or tear or something like this. I would say that would maybe make it a little different because you're stiffer, you know?

• 16:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  But then again, ankle too. If you're super like warm, you can stretch your ankles and shoulders a lot. So I don't know. Hey, maybe you might be right. I could be have it completely.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  Certainly sounds like I'm right.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  But statistically.

• 17:06Jocko Willink?

  I think I win statistically too.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Statistically, let's say it's inconclusive.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so 20% is not conclusive to you? Okay.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 17:17Jocko Willink?

  Well, you know what I'll do? I'll keep working out.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Given the quantity, like you'd have to do it over time and then if there's like a discernible 20%, then you could start to conclude, okay, I'm 20%. 20% more likely.

• 17:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, that's fair. That's we can make that a statement right now.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, more as of right now statistically, you're 20% more likely to get hurt if you don't.

• 17:38Jocko Willink?

  Which is pretty big.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Work out.

• 17:39Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, those aren't good odds at all.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  I know.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  I'm working out every day now.

• 17:43Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm talking about.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I used to do that. Um, like, but I would go hard workout then go jujitsu, but same thing though. I think it's mental. Unless you're doing it like seven days a week for, you know, a few weeks, then you can start to feel like, hey, or your nutrition is bad or I don't know, something. It's to go.

• 18:00Jocko Willink?

  You feel better. You feel better.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Sometimes, sometimes, not all the time though. I know sometimes I'll feel better if I don't work out, but so I wouldn't say that necessarily in my case, but I think it is more mental. You know, in jujitsu, like I think it's natural to put pressure on yourself to perform in jujitsu training. You know, because I think it's part of it. Like when I go in, I'm going to roll against you. I'm going to try to do good against you. I'm not gonna, every single time I'm not gonna go in. And be like, let's just see what I learned today. Let me work on my weaknesses and try to learn and.

• 18:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're gonna try and win.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  And try to win. And there's that element, I think, most of the time for most people.

• 18:37Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  So mentally, we'll play these games or we'll kind of psych ourselves out like, shit, I'm not at my best. Cause I'm kind of tired from working out, so I won't be able to perform. Now the pressure's on. Maybe I'm gonna roll with a guy who's my level. Maybe my instructor's gonna see me, roll with him. I'm not gonna do as good as I normally do. He will think I'm not as good as I really am. You know, it's like.

• 18:57Jocko Willink?

  So you're saying there's mental pressure when you're at the jujitsu?

• 18:59Speaker 01

  That's why, I think, that's why people will say, oh, I worked out today. I don't want you to judge my performance necessarily as the best.

• 19:08Jocko Willink?

  Excuse.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  In a way, yes.

• 19:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't have that excuse.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, you can't.

• 19:11Jocko Willink?

  Cause it would be a lie too.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:12Jocko Willink?

  Cause I would actually go and say, hey, I didn't work out today, therefore my game is gonna be weak. That's what I would have to say, but I wouldn't say that either.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  That's not the case for you most of the time. Yeah, and it's pretty rare, I think. I mean, in my experience, like, it's pretty rare that I'll work out, even a hard workout, in the morning and then go roll at night and then it affects me. Like, I feel, it's pretty rare.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  No. Now, I will get so sore sometimes. You know, if you do squats.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:40Jocko Willink?

  Or you do a hardcore, like a hardcore kettlebell workout, I'll be sore. And it takes a few minutes to get that soreness out of the body once you're on the mats.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:50Jocko Willink?

  And sometimes somebody will be doing some movement that's grinding on the quads.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:55Jocko Willink?

  And it hurts and makes you ziggy a little bit.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 20:00Jocko Willink?

  So I was jumping, I was parachuting. I had like hardly, this is like when I was, when I was in the SEAL teams.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, not like this morning.

• 20:08Jocko Willink?

  I was parachuting and I didn't have that many jumps, right? I wasn't an experienced free fall parachuters, parachutist at this time. And.

• 20:19Jocko Willink?

  The guy we were going jumping with was an extremely experienced, highly experienced, thousands and thousands of parachute jumps. And he took a crew of us and we were all pretty much new jumpers. We didn't know what the hell we were doing. And so, so we go up and there's a ceiling, meaning that the clouds are low and so we can't get to full altitude. And so he goes, hey, guys, we can't get up to altitude. We're in the aircraft. This is almost, you know, this is one of those cheesy, like a movie type scene where we're in the aircraft and he's kind of yelling like, what's going on to us? Yeah, like I'm pointing. We're all new guys and this guy was a master chief and he's like, he's like, hey, guys, we can't get up to altitude. We're gonna just do a hop and pop at three grand or something like that, meaning we're just gonna go at a very low altitude, just gonna

• 21:04Jocko Willink?

  jump out and pop our parachutes. And I'm sitting there, I've never even done a hop and pop before. I barely knew how to get stable coming out of an aircraft. The way you go through, we used to go through free fall school. It was like a rapid, rapid evolution where if you did correct on one jump, they moved to the next one. And I did my jumps correctly, so I didn't have a lot of jumps. So then we get this guy saying, and I only jumped at 13,000 feet before this. So you have all kinds of time if you, if you mess up on your exit, which if you don't know, when you jump out of an aircraft, when you're inexperienced, you can get spun around. As a matter of fact, Andy Stumpf talked about how he started spinning out of control and it happens. Well, when you're at 13,000 feet, you start spinning,

• 21:45Jocko Willink?

  it's okay. You've, you find your body position, you get stable. We called it flat, dumb and happy, meaning you're falling flat and everything is stable and good. And then you can pull your parachute and it's fine. Well, at 3,000 feet, you don't have time to do any of that. So when you come out, you basically have to come out and immediately adapt to the air stream of the aircraft and you have to get yourself stable and then you need to pull really quickly. And so I'm kind of thinking to myself, I'm kind of thinking to myself, I have no idea how to do this. And I've, I've known that I've messed up a bunch of exits and I knew that I've gotten unstable a bunch of times jumping out and you know, it just find my time and get stable and it'd be cool. So anyways, this master chief's like, hey, guys, we can't get to altitude. We're just gonna do a hop and pop at 3,000 feet. And

• 22:29Jocko Willink?

  I, I'm thinking to myself, okay, there's a limited chance that I'm gonna make this exit properly. And I think I said something along the lines of like, Hey, hey, Master Chief, I've never done a hop and pop before, you know? Because we're yelling in an aircraft, you can't hear anything. I'm like, hey, I've never done a hop and pop before. Look, what's anything, any pointers? And it was me and all my buddies, none of us had done it before. And he goes, yeah, it's no big deal. You just go out, just count to three and pull. And I go, Roger that. And then he goes, just don't ziggy the exit. That's what he says. Just don't ziggy the exit, meaning don't, don't have a bad exit, which like at this point, like I said, I was probably batting 50% bad exits because I just didn't know what I was doing.

• 23:10Jocko Willink?

  So of course, what did I do? Okay, fine. I'll just jump. If I ziggy the exit and die, cool. So be it. But at least I tried to, to hit it.

• 23:22Jocko Willink?

  So don't ziggy the exit.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  So what, what happened?

• 23:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so I went out, I didn't ziggy the exit, actually. You know, that's when the, when the pressure's on, you rise, you know? You rise. You hope to rise. I mean, I always feel better. You know, it's like surfing without a leash. You know what a leash is, right? Do you know? I mean, you're from Hawaii, you know.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Yes, I know what a leash, thank you.

• 23:42Jocko Willink?

  Some people wear a leash, some people don't. When you wear, when I wear a leash, which I don't like to, you feel, you can make mistakes and there's no, there's no, there's no price to be paid. Cause all you do is you fall and your board's right there with you. When you don't have a rope on or a leash on, when you fall, your board is gone. You have to swim for it. It's a pain. It can hit people. It's hazardous. It's dangerous. All these things. When I surf with a leash on, I surf like crap. When I surf with no rope, which I prefer, I surf better because if you don't make, if you ziggy that, if you ziggy that drop in, your board's gone, you're gonna hurt somebody. It's a nightmare.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:19Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Makes sense.

• 24:22Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you, my son the other day, there was big waves. And I mean, not big waves from a Hawaiian standpoint, but San Diego big waves. And he's just on a longboard, no rope, just dropping in on.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Shredding.

• 24:38Jocko Willink?

  I was, I was pretty impressed. And actually, especially because I have a little bit of a tweaked shoulder right now. So I was wearing a leash. Because I can't quite grip my board as much as I need to.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 24:50Jocko Willink?

  And so I was, I'm sitting out there wearing a leash and he's out there and no rope getting after it. I was like, okay, that's cool. Impressive.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, not everyone's like that, though.

• 25:01Jocko Willink?

  Not everyone's, oh, that they rise to the pressure?

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, or even in your case, it seems like you prefer the pressure.

• 25:06Jocko Willink?

  I prefer the pressure. I prefer the pressure. It feels better. Like, when you drop in on a wave and there's no, there's no penalty for, for making a mistake, there's just less reward, right? You want more reward.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I dig it.

• 25:21Jocko Willink?

  It's like rolling with people that you're better than, you know? You don't want to roll with people that you're just way better than. There's no reward to it. You wanna, you wanna feel a challenge, you know?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:30Jocko Willink?

  At least I do.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that makes sense, but I guess it's like the, the, the standard is different with you. Cause like, let's say, I was a sponger back in the day.

• 25:39Jocko Willink?

  For those of you that don't know, back in the day, Echo was riding a boogie board.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Body, we call it body boarding.

• 25:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Anyway, same, same thing, leash, no leash. But if you're shredding big waves,

• 25:53Speaker 01

  right, you want that leash, because some people, I was one of those people where if you don't have a leash, it's like, okay, now I'm thinking about that a little bit now. It's on my mind, rather than, you don't have to think about that, I can just think about, you know, this wave.

• 26:05Jocko Willink?

  Shredding.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  I can just think about shredding, yeah. So, you have that situation, but yours is a perfect analogy with the, with jujitsu guys, like, let's say, you know, you're a black belt, and, you know, whatever, you get matched up with a white belt, boom, timer goes off, and then, let's say it's a white belt that you've rolled with before, so you not only do you, you, you expect to be better than, than him?

• 26:26Jocko Willink?

  You actually know it, actually.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  You know it, yeah, and there's no payoff. So, yeah, your body is, straight up, has no, essentially no motivation, or no incentive to quote-unquote, perform. Same thing.

• 26:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  But I think with these types of things, like surf, it's just a different standard, though. Some people, in your case, apparently, you feel that in surfing, with the leash, but I think some people that, at the same time, it's like wearing a mouthpiece, too, you know?

• 26:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  They'll be like, oh, yeah, you know, but...

• 26:55Jocko Willink?

  That's not smart.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  What, not wearing a mouthpiece?

• 26:57Jocko Willink?

  Sparring without a mouthpiece. But, no, I mean, not, not jujitsu, but if you start stand-up, yeah, it's like boxing or kickboxing, without a, without a mouthpiece in, that's not smart.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  Which I've done a ton of, stupidly.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but think of that, that mindset there, where it's like, yeah, I won't wear a mouthpiece, that way, when someone hits me, it's, it, it, the cost is greater, you know? So, it'll add some pressure to me, kind of thing.

• 27:20Jocko Willink?

  Dental damage.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah.

• 27:22Jocko Willink?

  Dental damage.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, as opposed to losing your boogie board in the...

• 27:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  To the shore where you gotta swim a little bit more. Yeah, man, same deal.

• 27:31Jocko Willink?

  Jack, alright.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Boxing or jujitsu for a seven-year-old boy?

• 27:43Jocko Willink?

  Jitsu, all day, uh, on that one. It's a couple of reasons. It's fun, it's active, so you can actually fight the other person. And it's real fighting and it's what they're used to. And so many often when, when parents come in and they bring their kid in for the first time or now it's week two. And the parents are, oh, they just love it so much. And I said, yeah, they're doing what they wanna do, what they're, what they instinctually want to. Go look at dogs, go look at cats, go look at any animal out there in the animal kingdom. You know what they do? They grapple with each other.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:16Jocko Willink?

  And they, and they actually do submissions, right? They, they, if you watch like a wolf pack, when that dominating wolf gets the throat of the weaker wolf, the submissive wolf, he doesn't rip his throat out. The guy taps out, game over.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:31Jocko Willink?

  Now he knows that he's the alpha now, but it's the same thing. So, you know, you watch little lions or, or tigers, they wrestle with each other. They don't kill each other, they tap out, they get submissive. They say, oh yeah, you won. So it's very natural and very instinctive to do. So, yeah, jujitsu all day long. Now, it's important to develop your striking. And you can do that, you know, training, boxing, one, two times a week, you know, just get in there, learn how to throw. I mean, it's really, it's really pretty sad when you, when you meet a grown man that doesn't know how to throw a punch, right? That's just not good. You should know how to throw a punch because if you get in a fight, the fight's gonna start standing.

• 29:14Jocko Willink?

  And if, if all you know how to do is try and double leg someone, you, you don't always wanna do that. In fact, you prefer to knock the person out. In many cases, so learn how to throw strikes, but I will say as far as seven year olds getting in there and sparring, too young, too young, all kinds of brain development still going on, head trauma is head trauma. You're not gonna get better at it as you get older. You by well, I shouldn't say that you're not going to get better at it by taking more punches. The more you get punched in the head, the worse you're going to be at it, period, end of story. Nah, I shouldn't say period, end of story. When you turn 18 or when you turn 17 and you're going to start sparring, you're going to get better at it for a little bit.

• 29:59Jocko Willink?

  Because you're going to get used to it, you're going to understand how the reaction, you're going to know how to deal with the little white flash that hits you. You're gonna, you're going to become comfortable in that uncomfortable scenario. But that uptick of increased improvement is very short. And if, and very quickly you reach the other side of that, which is every time you get punched in the head, you're taking your, your brain resilience backwards. So do boxing, learn it, throw punches, hit pads. No, make sure you know how to throw a punch and you take a kid that's 10 years old that knows how to throw a one, two, three combo.

• 30:41Jocko Willink?

  And he gets in a street fight, he knows jujitsu and boxing, he's not even get to the, to the jujitsu part. Cause he throws a one, two, three combo and he's knocking out just about every other kid, or at least he's putting them down.

• 30:53Jocko Willink?

  Or at least, at least he's shown that that kid is going to go, wait, this person knows how to fight and I don't. Cause it is hard to knock people out. I don't care, you know, even, even a skilled boxer will have a hard time knocking out a random person in the street. Cause it's hard to knock someone out harder. So, yes, jujitsu all day long for the seven year old and do a little bit of striking to get them familiar with it.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, jujitsu is way funner too. And of course that it sounds like a matter of opinion, but just how you said, like grappling and stuff is natural. Like even if you get two brothers who. Don't take jujitsu at all, no wrestling, no nothing. You say, hey, go play outside. They're gonna start and no ball, no nothing. They're gonna mess around and chances are they're gonna start. You know, one guy's gonna be pinning the other guy on the ground, pinning his hands or whatever. And that's kind of part of it. So jujitsu, it's like, it's basically jujitsu is just that. It's literally just that, except for there's actual skills in there so they can get good at that thing that they were doing.

• 31:48Jocko Willink?

  And that's one of the reasons that boxing or striking kick, because I should say boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, whatever. There's a reason why it's a little bit boring if you're not sparring, because now you're not sparring. You're hitting pads, you're hitting, it's just not as fun. It is cool and it's good. And I'll tell you what, I've been to Thailand and it's awesome seeing the young kids that are training like that all the time. You drive down the streets in Thailand. Just like in America, you'd see guys shooting hoops or you see kids shooting hoops, you see kids playing catch the baseball. The kids there are doing Muay Thai. That's what they're doing. It's badass.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  That is badass, but that's a traditional thing. When that's all around you, that's what we do, that's what us kids, just like soccer, like certain places, you're gonna see more people playing soccer. Then you're not gonna see them playing basketball.

• 32:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, of course, it's a traditional thing. But I'm saying, even at that young age, they do find it entertaining. And they, and there also are ways to spar. If you can do it correctly, that is like light sparring. It's almost like you're playing tag. I call it playing tag. You can kind of play tag with a person, you are improving your skills, but you're not getting head brain trauma.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that, and that's actually a good point. So playing tag, because you do, even if you're not trained in boxing, you'll do that anyway. You know, with your brothers, like slap boxing. We used to go, um, before I actually took jujitsu, when we'd just watch UFC or the Hoist Crazy videos. We'd, um, we'd play slap MMA, basically. So it's slap boxing, you can kick them in the legs or whatever. And even if you get them on the ground, your ground and pound is just slapping them in the face. Like, we do that. And that's fun, even if you don't know jujitsu or boxing or anything. So that's right. I think that you're right about that, in that case where.

• 33:25Jocko Willink?

  You just have to be careful of get kids getting hit, kids and adults getting hit repeatedly in the head with legit strikes. It's just not good for you, period.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's kind of a slippery slope too, when you're like, oh, oh, seven-year-old boy. I want to get him into boxing, you know, so obviously there's a spectrum there. It's, it's, you know, on one side, you're like, okay, just get him, learn, learn how to throw one, two, learn this.

• 33:50Jocko Willink?

  You know what else is important to say too? You know, I just thought of this is. You said, did you say there's a spectrum?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so there's a spectrum. There's a spectrum of natural ability to take punches too. Right? So some people can get punched their whole lives and they're fine.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:05Jocko Willink?

  In the head. And you look at some pro boxers that come out of their boxing career after having wars. And they're, they're, they're cognitively fine. And there's other guys that go through their careers and they're, they're, they're in rough shape when they get done. They have a pugilistic brain syndrome. I forget the actual name of it, but they have, you know, the, the boxer's brain damage. And so you don't know who's gonna have that. You don't know if your kid's gonna have that or not.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:33Jocko Willink?

  So if the only way to find out is to test them by giving it to them, that's not a good way to find out. It's not worth it. Even if they wanted to be a pro boxer.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:41Jocko Willink?

  It's not a good way to find out. Because you're gonna find out when they're doing their first amateur bout and they get, if they get knocked out or, you know, they get bad headaches, it's a bad situation.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:51Jocko Willink?

  So I think that's one of the reasons why I think jiu-jitsu and wrestling is gonna get even more popular because as you look at the UFC evolve, the people are now saying, you know, all kinds of UFC fighters are saying, hey, I'm not sparring. You know, I'm barely sparring anymore. I don't spar before my fight or I spar a very limited amount. And so as people are saying that, well, what are you gonna do if you're not sparring? Well, you're hitting pads, that's cool, but how are you gonna train? You're gonna do jiu-jitsu, you're gonna do wrestling, you're gonna do grappling. That's where you're gonna win the fight. So I think that as the UFC gets more and more popular and as more information comes out about traumatic brain injuries that come from repetitive hits to the head,

• 35:30Jocko Willink?

  I think that the popularity of boxing and striking training is gonna go down and that will force or cause the popularity of wrestling and jiu-jitsu to go up.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, potentially, yeah. It's true. But these, um, oh, what I, what I said about the spectrum, I mean, everything's really a spectrum, but the approach to it, right? So let's talk about boxing, seven-year-old boy boxing. There's, there's a spectrum, one side of the spectrum is, yeah, let's have him learn the one-two, have him learn a jab, hook, cross, all this. And that's cool, hit some mitts, do a workout, do some jump rope and do this. On the other side, the extreme side, this kid, discipline, seven days a week, he's gonna be the next, you know, Roy Jones Jr. or something like that. And we're gonna start him right now, kinda thing. So, in that case, most of the time, I would predict, is that on the extreme case, the boy's not gonna take to it as naturally, you know? Unless it is part of the tradition or something like that.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  But jiu-jitsu, like I said, it's just so, unless you're, you're being that guy, that parent, you know, the one who's like, "You're going, no matter what." Yeah. Um, but I, I think so, I think you're right, I think naturally, they're gonna take to something like jiu-jitsu. It's just way more fun. And even just the traditional atmosphere of jiu-jitsu is more fun. You're just, especially in the kids, bro, those kids have so much fun in there.

• 36:46Jocko Willink?

  They don't barely know that they're doing something instructional in a lot of cases. They're just, "Hey, you hold this person here with your knees on each side." Well, that's the mount. And the person, the kid on the bottom's learning the mount escape. They don't even know it, but they're learning it.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, my daughter doesn't even wanna leave the gym now.

• 37:04Jocko Willink?

  That's so legit.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  You can just run around and think about it too, you're in a padded room.

• 37:07Jocko Willink?

  Here's a padded room, do whatever you want.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:10Jocko Willink?

  Go.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, it's the best. Next question. Jocko, how do you read books to prepare for podcasts? How do you read a book to extract maximum benefit? Any advice on keeping yourself focused and being patient while reading books?

• 37:28Jocko Willink?

  So this was a, a series of reoccurring questions that were about kinda how I read. And I grabbed three of them that were in there. So, how do I prepare for a podcast? It's actually a pretty in-depth situation. So, first thing I do is I read the book. As I'm reading the book, I highlight anything that I find to be interesting or informative to me, or reinforce an idea that I know, or bring a new idea to bear. So as I'm going through, I'm just highlighting everything. And when I get done with, now, just to, just to say, when we're talking max benefit, when I was in college and I would do that, I would, once I got done with highlighting the areas that I found informative or important, then I would make flashcards of the highlighted areas.

• 38:13Jocko Willink?

  So I was like double locking the information. Cause when you, as soon as I make a flashcard, I've already got it 50% in my memory. I read it, I highlighted it. It was like 25%. Make a flashcard? That's another 45 or 50%. And so boom, now I gotta do is study the flashcard for that last 25% to lock in the knowledge. Where when I go in to take the test, I know 100%. I know, I'm gonna know every answer on the, on the, on the question.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  When you recall like a thing, you actually recall what the flashcard looked like.

• 38:44Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  You know how you wrote the A on that, you know?

• 38:46Jocko Willink?

  Yes. So that's what I would do. This is kind of a sidetrack. When I was in college, highlight and then make flashcards of what I highlighted. Now for the podcast, what I do is, once I, once I read it and highlight it, now I go back through and I look at the highlights. And now I start being selective of what is going to be in the podcast. And I actually circle the actual words I'm gonna read with a red pen that I'm holding right here. And that's what I do. I circle and then I have little notes that say next, like when I circle a section, and then I'll either have an arrow that goes to another point, or I'll have a little note that says, go to page 49.

• 39:27Jocko Willink?

  And then there'll be a tab, one of those little yellow sticky tabs on page 49, boom, there it is. I can flip right there real quick. So we don't have to edit, we don't have to, there's a flow, I can keep rolling. And then on top of those, when I get to, when I read something and I wanna say something about it, I have little sticky notes that I put in there. Either sticky notes, I have the sticky tape stuff, which is pretty legit. And I just roll, I roll that out, I stick it on there and I say, hey, mention, you know, experience I had here, or what happened when I was doing this? And so I kinda make those notes and that way I can. Get it done. And while I'm doing that is when I have to figure out the chronology that I'm going to read it because

• 40:09Jocko Willink?

  I don't always read the notes from the book on the podcast in the same order that they are in the book because sometimes it just doesn't make sense. Sometimes there's some, so at the same time I'm doing that, I'm going back and figuring out what direction I'm actually going to read them.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 40:26Jocko Willink?

  So sometimes my conclusion of the book is different than the author's conclusion of the book.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:32Jocko Willink?

  So I gotta go back and say, I gotta go back pages or forward or whatever. So that's what I'm figuring out there as well.

• 40:39Jocko Willink?

  So that's kind of what the podcast prep looks like. Now, how to stay focused and patient while reading books. This is really difficult. I don't have a long attention span. When I have a long attention span, it's only because I absolutely force myself to do it. So what I would prefer to do is to read in small chunks. I want to do work for like an hour at a time. Right? When I'm writing, I want to work for about an hour. When I'm reading, I want to read for about an hour. After that, I want to get up and break something or throw something or lift something or run somewhere. You know what I mean? It's, I have an hour of patience with me.

• 41:19Jocko Willink?

  Unfortunately, that's not enough time, you know, especially when you're doing a podcast a week and you gotta read a whole book. Well, guess what? You gotta, you gotta read for longer. You gotta read for two, three hours at a pop. Uh, I'll try and make it that I do an hour early in the morning. Sometimes when I'm behind the curve, I will read first thing in the morning before I work out. Because I just want to get an hour done. Then I get to go and release, right? Then I get done with the workout, take a shower. Now I'm going to read for another 45 minutes. Okay, good. Now I'll do something else. Little pre-lunch reading. So, and then before I go to bed, I'm doing another hour. So there, I just got four or five hours in a day without having to sit down and do something for four or five straight hours, which bothers the hell out of me.

• 42:03Jocko Willink?

  The other thing you can do, and I do this, is I'll read multiple books at the same time, which is, which is an interesting task, tactic. I don't know if everybody should do that or could do that or would want to do that, but sometimes one book gets boring. But I know I gotta read, so I just have two books, three books, all sitting there and I'm reading them all at the same time. And that makes them a little bit more. Interesting. And the last thing I would say about trying to be focused on impatient when you're reading books

• 42:37Jocko Willink?

  is to try to really understand what it is that is happening in the book, not just from a plot perspective, but from a human perspective. What is that person going through? What is that like for that person? What are they thinking? And I get to a point where I'm so engaged, I feel like I'm becoming the author. I feel like I'm in the book sometimes when I'm reading it. So that is another good way to keep it engaging. Because if you're seeing it from the outside and you're not really in it, well then it's not, it's just not as engaging, simply put.

• 43:17Jocko Willink?

  If you get into it and you start thinking about that person, you go back, you know, do a little Wikipedia search on the author and see who they are. That gives you like a little insight.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:27Jocko Willink?

  And that helps me. Now I connect with them. I know that they're from New Jersey. I know that they went to this college. I know that they played soccer. So now when I'm reading about them, I'm going, oh yeah, that must, oh, you know, so I try and get a little background on that person. Gives me a little bit more engagement.

• 43:44Jocko Willink?

  That's that. That's my reading habits.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  It's kind of advanced that, and it makes more sense, I think, that like how you say you want to put yourself in the guy's head, you know? Actively, I'm going to consciously put myself in the, in the guy's head. Sometimes people are so good at writing where that just happens naturally. But when you do, when you do that, it's like you can kind of get, you get the story, of course, but most of the time you, when you do, all the time, it's lessons learned, like what do you learn? It's almost like when you're in, your head is in it like that, all the lessons are just flying into your brain, you know? Cause it's almost like you're doing like you're, you're going through that war, that particular ambush or something like that. And then, you know, they talk about the mistakes and all that, but you feel the mistake.

• 44:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and also.

• 44:32Jocko Willink?

  I have some experience with what they're talking about.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:36Jocko Willink?

  And so, and I'm not saying, I mean, I'm telling you right now, I don't have even close to the experience of the books that I'm reading on this podcast, these guys that were in the Battle of Iwo Jima and the Battle of the Bulge. No, nothing I did compared to anything that they do. But do I know what it's like to be waiting to go into a bad situation? Do I know what it's like to be shot at? Do I know what it's like to, you know, have guys getting wounded? Yeah, I know what that's like. So that's a little connection too. But I think, you know, everybody that's been in stressful situations of any kind, you can say, oh, what must that feel like? Hey, I know what it's like when I was waiting to, you know, go in for a job interview and I was completely stressed out and that's what this guy must be feeling right here, only even worse.

• 45:21Jocko Willink?

  So then you make that little mental connection, a little mental leap and you can, like you said, you can then learn more from it.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Which is important.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if I'm going into this particular situation, you know, in a book, I'm reading it and I'm not as engaged as maybe I could be. This guy goes through XYZ experience. I'm looking at it from my opinion, like, well, I could handle that, you know, kind of thing. But this guy is the type of guy who that's maybe part of his weakness or something like that and vice versa. Where, you know, like, I don't know, something about claustrophobia, I might be like, dang. But that claustrophobia, part of it, part of the story, isn't necessarily a huge part of the lesson that you're trying to get from it, you know? So you might miss, there might be some disconnects there if you don't, because they have a certain intention. And you have a certain intention. So if yours is the lesson, lessons learned, you might miss some of those lessons.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Just the feeling of missing.

• 46:15Jocko Willink?

  For sure. I'm not going to get everything out of a book. That's why when you, that's why when you get a really good book, you read it multiple times and you get more out of it every single time that you read it. No doubt about that one.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Next question. Is it okay if extreme ownership sometimes feels inauthentic?

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Example, taking ownership of something not really your responsibility. When does extreme ownership become excessive self blaming?

• 46:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so again, this was two questions. There was multiple questions like this on the interwebs.

• 46:55Jocko Willink?

  If extreme ownership feels inauthentic, or if you're taking ownership of something that's not really your responsibility. So, yes, there is a chance that you're going too far. However, the chances are, is that there really is something that you can do about it. And too often, people say, well, you know, it's just, it's just something I couldn't control. For example, right, there's things that you have zero control over, right? And you could easily just say, hey, that we, I couldn't control that. And therefore I can't take ownership of it. For, like, for instance, if we were planning an operation and the weather went bad.

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  And so now our vehicles got stuck. So we could say, hey, you know, weather got bad. There's nothing I could do about it. And that's, people say, well, yeah, you can't control the weather. No human being can control the weather. Well, guess what? You could make that excuse and be okay with it. Guess what else you could do? Hey, I didn't have a good contingency plan for bad weather, for rain. We should have brought tow ropes with us. We should have brought a winch with us so we could get out. That's what I should have done. I should have, so yes, even though it's really easy and it's like a 90% to just say, hey, it was bad weather, nothing I could do about it. You could do something about it. And, and that's when, when you start making those excuses, they, they're going to hurt you. Same thing in the business world, right?

• 48:23Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you know, the market, we can't, I can't control the market, right? The market went down. We weren't expecting it to go down. And now, you know, there's nothing we could do about it. It wasn't my fault. Oh, really? Because what you could have done was diversify your income streams, right? You could have diversified your income streams. So you weren't relying 100% on this one segment of the market. And now you're suffering. But all you do is say, well, you know, not my fault. You know, we can't control the market. The market went down. Well, actually you can control your position. You control how you were set up strategically. You didn't do that. So. When you do those things, it's, it's generally, there is something you could have done about it. There's generally something you could have done about it.

• 49:07Jocko Willink?

  And so if it feels inauthentic, sure, question yourself, but then say, okay, what could I have done about this? And I would say this, even when you're with your troops and you say, look, I didn't have full control of the market. We, I should have done this a little bit better. We should have planned to diversify our income streams better. I didn't do that. Here's where we're at, here's where we're going to move forward. The guys aren't going to say, like, hang you out to dry. Because you took ownership of that thing. They're going to realize, look, Jock was taking ownership of that, that's cool. We did get shafted by the market and, oh, well, lesson learned. We're going to move forward. But when you just come in and say, hey, market went down, not my fault.

• 49:52Jocko Willink?

  You lose respect to your guys. So don't do that. Now, all that being said, is there situations where, or are there situations where extreme ownership actually does become excessive self blaming? And the answer is yes, because there are certain situations where there actually is nothing that you could do. So, for example, and this is a great example, speaking of lessons learned, from the book Company Commander, that we just went over on the podcast, Captain McDonald, they got assaulted by, like, basically the entire German army.

• 50:31Jocko Willink?

  And they were left to try and hold the line with pistols and rifles against Tiger tanks, right? And 88 millimeter guns and thousands and thousands of troops attacking them. He could not have stopped them. Like, you cannot stop a division of soldiers with a company of soldiers. You can't do it, especially when they have artillery and they have tanks and you don't have any tank support. It's, it's, it's an unwinnable situation. So for him to continually blame himself and say, I should have planned better. Could he, could he say that? Sure.

• 51:12Jocko Willink?

  He did what he did with the information that he knew at the time. If he would have known it was a division attack, they would have set up differently. He thought he was just setting up a typical defensive perimeter. Right? So can you get to a point where you're blaming yourself excessively? Yes, you can, and you do need to be somewhat cognizant of that. I'm going to tell you, those cases are extremely rare. Extremely rare. Most of the time, you have a lot more control over your own destiny than you think you do. And the worst thing you can do is continually say, you know what? This is one of those rare instances where I had no control. It's probably not. It's probably an instance where you did have control. So keep it in the back of your mind, but keep in the front of your mind? Ownership.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Seems like excessive self blaming. That sounds like, you know, maybe someone who's fully blaming themselves. And then like, instead of taking action to, you know, implement corrective measures, something like this. They're like, I suck. And maybe they go into a depression or something like this.

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  Or yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Where they're gun shy now.

• 52:17Jocko Willink?

  What you're getting, yeah, absolutely. They dwell on it. Right? They dwell on the mistake. They dwell on the fact that things didn't go their way. They dwell on the fact that it's their fault. And now they're, like you said, gun shy. That's great. Indecisive. People get indecisive. So no, yeah, those are great points. You definitely don't want to do that excessive ownership where it gets to a point where it turns you into a, an indecisive person that's not going to make decisions because you're scared you're going to fail. You don't trust yourself anymore. Yeah, that's a great point. That is excessive. What you need to do is say, okay, this was the problem. This was my fault. Here's what I'm going to do to fix it. I'm going to move on. We can't dwell on the stuff that happened in the past. Can't do it. Good point.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  That, um, how you, you know how early, how you kind of started this where if you, if you, let's say, okay, the opposite. Let's say you're a blamer, right? You're like, oh, something goes wrong and you blame someone. If someone's blaming me for something, for everything, you know, all the time. Of course, you know, the defense comes up and all this stuff that always happens. But after a while, they build that rep as being a blamer, you know?

• 53:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  So now just, it starts to become automatic that you're defensive against this guy. You don't trust him, all this stuff. But the same kind of goes opposite. You know how like? You know, if someone's always taking responsibility for the whole deal, they're not blaming you at all. They're like, no, it's my fault. No, it's my fault. They're correcting it. They're you almost. You have a bunch of stories like this where guys are like, no, it's my fault. No, it's my fault. And they all want to jump in, you know? And so the point there is like, after a while, you build that rep where it's automatic. People will automatically not have any kind of defense or whatever. They're automatically want to solve problems.

• 53:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's true too.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  That rep, man. Building trust is how you put it.

• 54:00Jocko Willink?

  It is building trust. It is indeed.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Interesting. Next question. What made you choose literature for your degree?

• 54:12Jocko Willink?

  You know, again, I think I've answered this before, probably a few times. So I'll keep it brief. But people, a bunch of people did ask along those lines, along a question along those lines.

• 54:24Jocko Willink?

  The reason I wanted to become better at English and the reason I studied English in college is because I had seen the importance of language in the military.

• 54:38Jocko Willink?

  Written and spoken. So written, you're doing evaluations, you're writing and reading and receiving orders. You're writing and receiving rules of engagement, concept of operations, awards, field manual, all these things that you do in the military are written. Either you're writing them or you're reading them. So to be able to write well and to be able to read and understand well is very important. On top of that, the spoken word, you're doing briefings, you're giving op orders, you're doing interviews or you're getting interviewed, you're even doing like interrogations. All these things are spoken word. So the better command you have of the English language, the better you're going to be at those.

• 55:23Jocko Willink?

  And furthermore, in that book that we read, The Armed Forces Officer, 1955 edition, I think it is. They, they, I, I don't have the quote on me, but. Leadership is communicating. That's what it is. It's communicating with other people, what the idea is, what the goal is. So communication is the use of words. So the better you can use words, the better job you're gonna do as a leader. And that's what I realized when I was, had the opportunity to go to college and got to pick my degree. That's why I picked it. Pretty simple.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Dig it. Also, it seems like when these, when somebody's your boss or your leader in whatever capacity.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  You know, like when someone misuses a word, like, or they'll say the, like, they'll say irregardless. You know, you know, when it's something like, you totally said that wrong. After all, you're kind of like, that feeling like.

• 56:21Jocko Willink?

  Disrespect this person.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Or the guy, he goes on a Facebook rant, even if he's not your boss or something. He's on a Facebook or whatever Twitter.

• 56:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Goes on this rant, but then he's like misusing your and your, you know, or, or, or failing to put a period. So, you know, it's like you almost, it's almost like you have that feeling, like you can't take them seriously. You want them to take you.

• 56:42Jocko Willink?

  Language is important.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:44Jocko Willink?

  It is definitely important.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  I mean, not because technically, I mean, really, how much bearing does that really have?

• 56:49Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  The idea is, but it just seems that way.

• 56:51Jocko Willink?

  At the same time it does. And I'll tell you, like, one thing, I'm not a good speller. If it wasn't for spell check, I'd spell all kinds of stuff wrong.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but.

• 56:59Jocko Willink?

  I never studied spelling because when I was a kid, I wasn't, because that's when you learn to spell. I think was when you're a kid. I didn't pay much attention to spelling. I never have. So.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Just the fact that you care, though, that's like the major part of it.

• 57:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  You know, you're like, okay, there's spell check.

• 57:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And one thing that's cool is, by the way, you don't need to major in English to get good at writing and get good at communicating. You could major in anything, as long as you, it'd be nice to take a couple of courses, though. Because when you do start diving in, and I'll tell you, Shakespeare's a big one. When you start diving into understanding Shakespeare for real, you really learn how to read well. You really learn how to read well. And when you submit papers that are being graded by somebody that is a.

• 57:46Jocko Willink?

  Master with grammar and they're picking you apart, you learn how to write better. There's no doubt about it. And so that's why I I enjoyed both those, both those aspects, both reading and truly understanding stuff and writing and being graded in such a way that someone's saying, "Hey, you didn't need to use this word. You could have shortened this sentence." And and basically, everyone's goal is to make things cleaner and shorter most of the time. Clarity, though, is, to me, the the most important factor. I want to make sure that what I'm saying is very clear.

• 58:26Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, English, I took a class called Advanced Grammar and Syntax.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Dig it.

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  And I just, I just, I would have, I would have, I would have taken, you know, multiple classes if they had, they only had one.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  That was all you.

• 58:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the best things I I did was when, because my guys had to write evaluations. The guys, my subordinate leadership would have to write evaluations when I was at the, it happens my whole career, but, well, once I became an officer. But when I was at the Training Command, I had a hundred guys or so, probably more than that, but everyone had to have an evaluation written. And so it was the senior guys, the senior leader, my subordinate leadership, my direct subordinate leadership, that would write their evaluations. And so if you didn't police these guys up in the get-go, there'd be issues. So I brought them in and I said, "Hey, bring me your best evaluation of your best guy."

• 59:21Jocko Willink?

  And so they brought them in, we put them up on the screen, and I murdered them. I murdered them all. And it was so good because they all got so much out of it. You probably need to go through that drill like one time, maybe two times of someone murdering your writing, because all you do is you you start off, you just read their sentence to them. That's all you do.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Correctly, right?

• 59:41Jocko Willink?

  Just, you just read their sentence, just what they have written, you just read it. And they go, and you and you say, "Is that what you're trying to say?" And they go, "No, no, I I just stop, stop, you know, I'll go back." Because a lot of times, when you read something aloud to yourself, you recognize how jacked up you wrote it. So that's like lesson number one in writing with more clarity. Just read your sentences and see what they sound like. So.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Well, you can't really read your own, though, right? Because when you read your own, you know exactly what you were saying, even though you said it wrong.

• 1:00:09Jocko Willink?

  You can read your own. But, and that will be helpful. But yeah, sometimes you'll already have an idea in your head, so you won't get the full benefit of having someone else read it aloud to you and laugh at you. So yeah, English is definitely important and, and it's fun too. I, I enjoy, one of the odd things like for Twitter. I have fun fitting something into a hundred and forty characters. Like that's enjoyable to me. I know that's like a twisted thing.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  It's all like a little puzzle.

• 1:00:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a little puzzle and now what, what could I use and maybe I could get it in there. That's kind of fun for me. Like there was something, and I had that kind of fun in some of the English classes that I took where I was trying to just get the perfect words. And so there's a little puzzle too. It's a lot of fun. It can be fun. It can be fun if you have that type of personality.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Interestingly, you're not, I don't find you to be a grammar Nazi.

• 1:01:03Jocko Willink?

  No, I wouldn't say I'm a grammar Nazi much. Because I just don't think I'm an overt grammar Nazi. I think, I think, I think I find it. I think I kind of just say, oh yeah, that's, that's poorly written.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, to yourself, okay.

• 1:01:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, to myself. Yeah. I mean, unless it's someone that is going to turn something in and I just have to say, hey, man, this is not good.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, which technically that's not being a grammar Nazi. Grammar Nazi is like me and you, I'm telling you about, you know, jujitsu something.

• 1:01:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Or the beach and you're like, you know, hey.

• 1:01:36Jocko Willink?

  I correct you.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Jocko Willink?

  I don't, yeah, I don't do that a lot because you know why? Partially, not only is it not cool, but it's a conversation, right? And I was going to say something about like being from the streets, which is a major exaggeration because I'm not from the streets, although I spent some time in the streets. But, you know, I, I, I enjoy language, right? I enjoy language. And so when somebody speaks improperly, I actually like it. It's a different, it's a different thing. I mean, Cormac McCarthy, probably my favorite writer, he doesn't, he does all kinds of crazy things.

• 1:02:15Jocko Willink?

  He doesn't use a lot of punctuation. He doesn't use quotes. So you're dealing with a whole nother ballgame. I'm not slamming him.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Jocko Willink?

  And, and, and honestly, it makes it harder, in many cases, it makes it harder to read what he's written.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Jocko Willink?

  And you know, people say, well, he says, you know, that it, you shouldn't need quotations. Well, sometimes you need them.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  But I'm not gonna sit here and criticize Cormac.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:40Jocko Willink?

  Do it.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Bro, that makes so much sense. I never thought about that. How you, how, so, two things actually, where, yeah, you like it. Like, there's these memes and they're the, they're so funny. Where it'll just have a picture, maybe familiar, maybe not, and then it'll have like some, you know, a little saying on top of it, you know? Like, oh, how it looks when she goes through your phone. I don't know, something like that. And a lot of those memes are just no grammar. No, it's almost like just an ignorant person wrote it, you know? And it makes it way more funny. So overall, the point there is like, people talk, talking pigeon or something like that, or with a crazy accent, their English not that, it can be more enjoyable experience. It's a more in-depth experience, for sure. So there's that. Um, and it, but at the same time,

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  there are a few, there are certain situations where if you misuse a comma or misuse, or don't put quotes or something like that, you can literally say something different. Then there, you know, misunderstandings can kind of creep in.

• 1:03:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and people ask me about, I hate to bring this up right now, because this is just like a bloodbath argument, but the Oxford comma, which you can look at in the interwebs, but it's basically when you say a list of things, the last thing that you're gonna say, which normally you say, "And this", you, the Oxford commas, you put a comma before that "and", and for me, it makes things very, very clear. And the reason some people don't use it, it came from the new, I think, it came from newspaper, where they're trying to, you know, fit stuff in a column, and they gotta fit stuff in the newspaper, so they, "Hey, we can get rid of that comma, it's not needed." That's kind of where it started. But it's not proper.

• 1:04:17Jocko Willink?

  And, A, sometimes it makes sense, but a lot of times it doesn't. So anyways, that's one small example. And the other funny thing, because I was talking about Cormac McCarthy, I'm gonna say this little thing too, because it reminded me of it. Another thing in the Success Magazine interview, or article, it wasn't interview, it was an article, he said, uh, the writer, who's a good dude, he said,

• 1:04:42Jocko Willink?

  Jocko rarely does interviews, right? And that's when Tim Ferriss said that two years ago, Tim Ferriss was 100% correct because I had done zero interviews. So he could have said, and he's never done an interview before. Tim Ferriss would have been speaking the truth, and he was at the time. Since then, I don't know how many freaking interviews I have done. I have done interview upon interview upon interview upon interview. It's ridiculous. And I put in my little Facebook rebuttal to the argument, or to, or my, my comments about the, or corrections to the article. I said, I actually do interviews all the time.

• 1:05:25Jocko Willink?

  If you want someone that rarely does interviews, that's Cormac McCarthy, because Cormac McCarthy, he doesn't do interviews. He does, he's got what? I think he's done one interview in the past 20 years with Oprah Winfrey. That's it. 20 years, one of the most, you know, one of the best writers of our, of our time, living today. You know, is he going to come on the podcast? Nope, he's not.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  He rarely, he rarely comes on podcasts.

• 1:05:52Jocko Willink?

  He should, he should come on this podcast.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:05:56Jocko Willink?

  But.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Also, if you, if you see a lot of misuse grammar and you let it go and you see a lot of it, you get better at understanding it, you know? You know how like, you know how certain people, they'll be like, oh, this guy's accent is too thick. You know, I can't understand them. Meanwhile, the guy next to you is like, oh, I heard that accent before plenty of times.

• 1:06:13Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  You know, my neighbor is Jamaican or whatever. So they understand, it's kind of like that idea, you know? People misusing words, grammar all messed up. But if you're used to that, you're like, oh, I see what they're saying. It has a lot to do with context as well, but I'm just saying if you're familiar with that situation. So it kind of expands your mind to allow people to use bad grammar.

• 1:06:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  That's not to say you should use bad grammar. I'm just saying from, from a standpoint of understanding.

• 1:06:36Jocko Willink?

  I could see where you're coming from. I'm not sure that I would like completely buy into that, but we'll go with it for this.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Can't get down with that. All good.

• 1:06:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, you're right in the fact that some people can understand accents really well.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  And for me, it depends on the accent. Some accents I can understand fine, some accents I can't.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it has to do with what, what you're familiar with.

• 1:06:54Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes, you are correct.

• 1:06:58Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Jocko, what do you think about mechanical warrior robots in the SEAL teams?

• 1:07:07Jocko Willink?

  Again, this is, this is a question where people ask me this because there's weird hype and uh, what's the word? Conspiracy type attitude about, you know, artificial intelligence and robots and all that. And so my thoughts are robots, like warfighting robots, awesome. Let's build the most awesome destruction robots and let's build an army of them. And let's let them get after it. I think it's awesome. You look at what's happening right now with drones and, and unmanned air vehicles. That's where we're going in another, I, I forget the name.

• 1:07:50Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I forget the specific timeframe, but in 10, 20, 30 years, there's not going to be any more manned fighter jets, military fighter jets. Why would you do that? You can put a, a computer in there and you can fly it from the ground or you can, you don't even need to fly it. It'll do your mission that you want it to do. So when we can come up with a robot, that a Terminator robot that can go and attack and take care of the problem? Yeah, let's do that. I support it. And the whole idea that robots will turn against us, we'll build better robots that will kill those robots. I'm not worried about that. Or we'll fight the robots. Yeah, I don't care. I say bring it on, bring on the robots.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Jocko Willink?

  I'll crush you.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:32Jocko Willink?

  I know, like Joe Rogan, he'd be freaking out about some robots. You know, and I think, you know, pretty much everybody, I'm probably the ignorant person here, right? Because the smart people like Elon Musk and Sam Harris, they're all, you know, you gotta watch out because this artificial intelligence is going to become smarter than us. And then what are we going to do? It's going to attack us and control us.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, their thing is if, if, if it winds up that they, they ultimately figure out and they won't be wrong. Is that's the, that's the view. If they figure out that they don't need us, then the logical thing would be to. Eliminate us.

• 1:09:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Like, like everybody and everything does ever, you know?

• 1:09:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I gotta admit, like, that sounds pretty cool to me. I say, bring it. I want that robot war.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Let's get it on.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  Well, typically, robots, I mean, we say unmanned.

• 1:09:22Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I got a question for you. How about we unplug them? Right? Cut their power source.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but typically, I mean, even that, when you, you know, yeah, I don't think it, I think there's, I think that's a simple thing for a robot, if they're smart, to understand, oh, they might very well cut our power source. So they're gonna figure that out pretty quick, I would imagine, if they're turning, but.

• 1:09:44Jocko Willink?

  I like the way Sam Harris described artificial intelligence one time, though. He said, imagine that you, that I ask you a question, and then you have a year to go and research and come up with the perfect answer, and then you come back and you answer that question, but it happens in a millisecond. That's what a computer's gonna be able to do.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Jocko Willink?

  And that's pretty awesome.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Jocko Willink?

  And do they end up then, and I don't, you know, I'm not a, I don't even know what you'd call a person that theorizes about this kind of thing. I'm not one of them. But that's pretty unbelievable, and, and it'll only get faster and better from there. I just think that, I don't think it's too hard to control, to put controls in there that prevent the, the turning of the robots.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Like preventative mechanisms.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Well, you, you talk about unmanned stuff, and usually.

• 1:10:37Jocko Willink?

  You know what? I'm about to make a movie reference. Robocop.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Hit it.

• 1:10:41Jocko Willink?

  Robocop, old school, because I think the story of that had some kind of a, uh, mechanism in there.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  The directives.

• 1:10:50Jocko Willink?

  The directive.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Prime directive.

• 1:10:51Jocko Willink?

  Prime directive, wasn't allowed to kill, wait, what's, is it prime directive? What's that from? Is that from Robocop?

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  I think so. It, I know they're uphold the law, protect the innocent. This, I'm not doing it in order. Um, something about trust.

• 1:11:04Jocko Willink?

  See, if you were AI, you'd be able to come back with a perfect answer.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:11:07Jocko Willink?

  But you program in that you can't hurt humans or whatever.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:12Jocko Willink?

  Whatever.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  Like over this rigid thing.

• 1:11:15Jocko Willink?

  Let's, let's, this is another situation. Let's see where it goes. I'm good. Rock and roll.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  But the unmanned thing, I mean, it's based on like patterns, you know, so the unmanned thing, usually you're not gonna find something that's really technically unmanned. Even a drone is not unmanned. It's just less manned.

• 1:11:31Jocko Willink?

  They can be unmanned.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  It's just less manned. Somebody's.

• 1:11:33Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, somebody programmed it where to go, but you can put a drone in the sky that's gonna go.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but see what you say, you can put, someone's gotta put them in, in the sky, someone's gotta launch, somebody, so it's gonna be manned, like the intentions of something, like that first intention of something, it's gonna be manned.

• 1:11:48Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Once you give that up, then you're like, okay, now you got some problems.

• 1:11:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:11:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, again, I, I'm just not sitting around worried about this kind of thing. So I'll let Joe Rogan and Sam Harris.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00Jocko Willink?

  And Elon Musk worry about keeping the robots in line.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:12:06Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'll be ready to? I'll be ready to fight them if they, if they need me. Bring it.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Yep. Sure. Next question. Unless you wanna talk about robots some more?

• 1:12:17Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  That's cool. Okay. Or Robocop?

• 1:12:19Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, even Robocop was manned. He was a man, part man, part machine.

• 1:12:23Jocko Willink?

  But the, the big machine that, the initial one that caused the problems.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Who, Ed 209?

• 1:12:29Jocko Willink?

  The, the thing that looked like a, had big legs.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, Ed 209, man. They malfunctioned and murdered that guy in front of the.

• 1:12:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 1:12:39Jocko Willink?

  You have four seconds to comply.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:41Jocko Willink?

  You have three seconds to comply. You have two seconds to comply. Hey, shut it off, buddy.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  Bro, the first time you watched that, bro, that was, that was tense. Well, that was a harsh scene. Oh, you, he loved it though, huh?

• 1:12:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  Savage.

• 1:12:52Jocko Willink?

  I guess so.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  Ed 209.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Jocko.

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  What's your favorite submission?

• 1:13:02Jocko Willink?

  Real, again, trying to do a little rapid fire here because people ask me this all the time. Favorite submissions. Because I gotta go plural on that one.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  God.

• 1:13:11Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Kimura and Guillotine, those are my two favorite submissions, I think. The reason why is because they're both really effective, gi and no gi. They're both really effective. From the bottom, right? You can do them from the top, you can do them from half guard, you can do them from mount. You can do them from a lot of different positions. You can do them in the street. You can do them in MMA and you can do them in jiu jitsu. So I just like the fact that they're kind of universal positions and very effective in every aspect of jiu jitsu.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, those are good. I'd go for the Kimura.

• 1:13:49Jocko Willink?

  Rear naked choke.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  And the rear naked choke, for sure. Yeah, those are ones that you don't, um, like.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  They're big, they're like granddaddy, there's a few of them, they're the granddaddy submissions, you know?

• 1:14:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and you could say arm lock is one of the granddaddies. I just find the Kimura to be a higher percentage move.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:14:10Jocko Willink?

  Now lately, my last several years, I've been using more straight arm locks again.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Like what, like arm bar or the, it's a straight arm?

• 1:14:17Jocko Willink?

  Both.

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:18Jocko Willink?

  Both. Because all my training partners are so good at defending my Kimuras.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:23Jocko Willink?

  That I have to go to alternate moves. Actually, I surprised you the other day with the, you were kind of, you were kind of depressed too. You remember what I'm talking about?

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  I feel like that was like a few weeks ago.

• 1:14:35Jocko Willink?

  It was, it was probably more than that, but I remember your reaction, your reaction was sort of.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:41Jocko Willink?

  Like, I can't believe he got me with an arm lock.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  And I even like made it like a comment.

• 1:14:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you did.

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  During the roll, like when you were going for him, like, like.

• 1:14:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  And it's, it kind of seemed like you turned up, turned up the heat when I said that.

• 1:14:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't like when people challenge. Challenge accepted.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, those are good, I agree. Next question. Jocko. You discussed making sure your teams have the freedom to make strategic changes to the plan if needed. What if you're developing a system with your team? And you begin to get pushback from them before you feel the core values are established?

• 1:15:22Jocko Willink?

  So this is a really good question. Once again, you start coming up with your plan and you're already starting to get some pushback from the boys on what it is. Well, what do you do? Listen to them. Listen to them. Why are they pushing back? You know what I mean? Why are they pushing back? Maybe they have some good points. Is that possible? Maybe you're a little bit off base on the plan that you're coming up with or the strategy that you're coming up with. Maybe you're not, of course, that's always possible too. Maybe they're wrong and you're right, but hear them out. You know, if I say, "Hey, we're going to hit the target from this direction here." And my team disagrees with what I'm saying, well, why are they disagreeing? What's, what's the reason for that? You know?

• 1:16:07Jocko Willink?

  How do they think we should do it? They should think we should come in from the, from the south and I think we should come from the north? Why do they think that? Now, if I know something is right

• 1:16:18Jocko Willink?

  and I am right, then guess what? I can explain it to them and they'll say, "Oh, Jocko, we didn't know that." "We didn't know that there was defenses that we hadn't been told about to the south and why, that's why we should come into the north." Or, "We didn't know that the sun would be at our back from the north and that's why." We didn't know that at the time. So, you're right. Now, if I can't explain it to them, if I can't give them a reason why my strategy or my plan is better, then there's something wrong with my plan. Or there's something wrong with my ability to explain it to them. Right? So, if you're doing the right things for the right reasons, you'll be able to convince your team of the strategy or of the plan. And if you can't,

• 1:17:02Jocko Willink?

  it's a hint that maybe you need to adapt your strategy. Or maybe you need to adapt your plan. Now, be advised, this is not easy. This is not easy to do. First of all, you have to get your ego in check, right? Because you think you've come up with a plan and you think it's the master plan. So you, you, you have to put your ego in check. Secondly, you might actually have the best plan, but maybe you don't have the ability to articulate the nuances of the plan. And so your guys, you get a guy that's a really articulate guy that's arguing with you on his plan. And he's actually winning the argument, even though your plan might be better. That's a, that's a tough situation to be in.

• 1:17:44Jocko Willink?

  So that means you've got to really get in the weeds. Now, one thing that you could do in that situation is say, hey, I'm in charge. Shut up, listen to me.

• 1:17:58Jocko Willink?

  And again, this might be a situation where you're right and they're wrong. But if you can't articulate that properly, and now you only way to do it is to pull rank on them. Hey, you're going to go backwards, right? You're going to go backwards. So you have to be very careful of that. Again, this is why it's important to, to have good command of the English language. That's why it's important to listen. That's why it's important to take people's ideas. And that's the thing with being a leader, okay?

• 1:18:28Jocko Willink?

  Have an open mind, have open ears, listen, communicate, and lead your team not by rank, right? But by being able to, to discern and uncover and mold and shape the best possible plan and the best possible strategy by and through understanding everyone's perspectives and ideas. And then taking all those perspectives and all those ideas and coordinating them into a unified thought that leads the team to victory. That is hard.

• 1:19:13Jocko Willink?

  That is hard to do. But the minute, again, the minute that I'm telling somebody, hey, no, just do it my way. I know that there's, there's something wrong here. Either I'm not articulating right, which means I should take the time. Because if I'm right and you're wrong. We should be able to get there to where you see that.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:35Jocko Willink?

  We should be able to get there. We could also get to a point where it's six and one half dozen the other.

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:39Jocko Willink?

  Right? We could get to that point, too. And at that point, you know what I'm gonna do? You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna use your plan. If it's six, one half dozen the other, I'm gonna use your plan.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:48Jocko Willink?

  Echo says, "Come in from the north." I say, "Come in from the west."

• 1:19:53Jocko Willink?

  We look at the pros and cons of each. I'm gonna go with your plan. Would you just wanna come in from the west? Yeah, okay. If it's, if it's fifty-fifty, I'm gonna go with your plan. I'm gonna give it to you. I'm gonna give you the ownership. That's what I'm gonna do.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:06Jocko Willink?

  Even, I'll tell you, even sixty-forty, I'm probably gonna give it to you. We get to, you know, seventy-thirty, now you're gonna see it. You're gonna see the light.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:18Jocko Willink?

  If you have any brain. Now, you could also be an egomaniac, right? Who's like, "My way, my way, my way." Now, we've gotta break through that. How do we do that? It's not by attacking your plan, which you're gonna defend, because you're an egomaniac. Instead, I'm gonna say, "Well, tell me the benefits of your plan. Let's weigh it out between your plan and my plan. Maybe we adapt your plan a little bit. Oh, I like what you did here. I see where you're coming from. That's a really good point. I didn't think of that." "But also, we need to consider this that I didn't, you know, we, we didn't know before, so now we gotta adjust." So, those are the things that are hard.

• 1:20:52Jocko Willink?

  Those are the things that are hard about being a leader. But the best thing you can do, open your mind, open your ears, listen to what people are saying. Take it on board. If their plan is better than yours, great, use it. If it's not better than yours? Okay, articulate the reasons why. Have the conversations with them. Don't be scared.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  It's a slick move. I, I didn't think of that.

• 1:21:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:21:17Jocko Willink?

  Gotta build up their ego if they got the big ego. We gotta flank 'em.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  We flank 'em. Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, it's good. Get other people's perspectives, because it can seem like a fifty-fifty, or it can seem like... Sixty forty, you know, but it can also seem like a sixty four or seventy thirty. Your plan is better, but to them seventy thirty their plan is better because of their perspective. Let's say they they there's rats drawn down this trail.

• 1:21:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  I don't like rats, but if you didn't know that, you know, you're like rats, who cares kind of thing.

• 1:21:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 1:21:52Jocko Willink?

  Dogs would be a better thing.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:21:54Jocko Willink?

  To say rats aren't going to interfere with your mission. Dogs start barking and maybe they had they had somebody they read an intel report that said there was a bunch of dogs up in this this. You know, residents to the north, so we want to come in from the west. I didn't know that I didn't do good enough, so now it's easy, easy thing to convince me of. Right? But all we have to do is have the conversation.

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, understand the perspective.

• 1:22:16Jocko Willink?

  Talk and communicate.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Those dogs with rabies.

• 1:22:19Jocko Willink?

  Put your egos in check.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, or snakes, by the way, if you're Indiana Jones or something like this. Next question.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Jocko, have you encountered any gaps in the leadership capabilities of officers from West Point? Or the other academies?

• 1:22:39Jocko Willink?

  OK, so for those of you that don't know what the service academies are, there's West Point, there's the Naval Academy, which gives you Navy and Marine Corps officers. West Point gives you Army officers, the Air Force Academy gives you Air Force officers and the Coast Guard Academy gives you Coast Guard officers. They're four years, they're military school, they're really hard to get into, they're extremely competitive. They have massive amount of tradition at all of them and they are highly disciplined and hard hard to get through. So.

• 1:23:09Jocko Willink?

  You would think, right, that what I just said would produce a and a standard, a very high standard of an outstanding officer. The fact of the matter is, in my career, it it really makes no difference. Because there's other ways that you can have officers, other avenues that officers come from. They can come from ROTC, which is when you know you go to a regular college and you basically take classes about being an officer and you get shown how to wear a uniform and all that. You can go to OCS, which is when you graduate from college, you go to a program for 13 weeks or however long each service has a little bit different in the Navy. For me, I went to OCS, it was 13 weeks. That was after being enlisted for eight years.

• 1:23:54Jocko Willink?

  You know, you can be a prior enlisted guy like me, which is you get your commission after you've been in the military. And so, all those, I've, I had outstanding officers, or I worked with outstanding officers from each one of those commissioning sources. I had outstanding Naval Academy guys, outstanding West Point guys, outstanding ROTC guys, outstanding OCS guys, just outstanding guys. Great leaders. And guess what? I also had crap leaders that were from the academy, crap leaders that were from West Point, crap leaders that were from OCS, crap leaders that from ROTC. So, and crap, and by the way, probably the biggest

• 1:24:37Jocko Willink?

  example of the disparity of good and bad is prior enlisted. So, prior enlisted means that you were an enlisted grunt, you were a frontline trooper in the SEAL teams or in the military, and then you get your commission. That's what I did. And I had great officers that were like that, and I also knew horrible officers that were like that. So, for me, it doesn't really matter what your commissioning source is. It, it matters who you are as a person and who you are as a leader. And if you have those characteristics that make you a good leader, if you're humble, if you listen, if you're dynamic, if you articulate, all those things that make a good leader. If you have them, doesn't really matter your commissioning source.

• 1:25:20Jocko Willink?

  If you, and if you don't have them, doesn't really matter your commissioning source. That's what I've experienced. In my time. So it is interesting. I thought when I first joined the military, I thought these guys that came from the naval academy that I'm going to work with in the SEAL teams, they're gonna be really awesome because they went to four years of leadership training and learning how to lead. And I mean, Brian Stan's a great example, right? You could hear he got a lot out of them, out of the naval academy, a ton, just the way he talked about it.

• 1:25:58Jocko Willink?

  I bet that Brian Stan would be an outstanding officer if he went to the naval academy, if he went to OCS or if he went to ROTC. It's just, he's got a great, did he learn lessons there? Yes, but he had an open mind to learn those things. And so, yeah, you know, the, the, the service academies are, are definitely awesome and re- really great tradition in all those, but you know, I don't think you need to go to a service academy to be a good officer and I don't think it really matters. What matters is what kind of leader and person you are.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Is that the kind of deal where you just never know who you're gonna get at the end? Because some people, they're really good at, you know, these people, they'll get really good grades, but out in the field, they do substandard performance wise. Cause, cause they're good at getting good grades or they're good at taking classes kind of thing. Good at memorizing or whatever.

• 1:26:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, interesting.

• 1:26:55Jocko Willink?

  But you don't know what you get as a person. Well, like, how were they brought up?

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:59Jocko Willink?

  You know, Brian Stan's story, cool about how he got brought up, you know, he just very, you could see that he, he wasn't taught his leadership ability, in my opinion, at the naval academy. Did he learn there? Yes. Did he take away a lot from it? Yes. Anybody that heard him would probably think, ah, I definitely would, would love to go to the naval academy. But, you know, you listen to his story of his life, he learned a lot. Prior to, he learned a lot at, when he was at, uh, at the TBS, the basic school. He just learned a lot and he had an open mind and he was a humble guy and a hard worker. That's what makes you a great officer, you know, that type of thing.

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Next question. Do smaller built dudes have a niche for SOF world? For the SOF world?

• 1:27:46Jocko Willink?

  SOF world.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:48Jocko Willink?

  Special Operations Forces.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:51Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  Do you say SOF? You don't say SOF.

• 1:27:53Jocko Willink?

  No, you got to say SOF.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  Do smaller built dudes have a niche for the SOF world? Any advantages, disadvantages with physical size or of operators?

• 1:28:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, special ops guys come in all shapes and sizes, for sure. They are, can be big giant monster guys and they can be little tiny skinny wiry guys. And that's the way it is. And they're all needed in, in the special operations community. You know, if you look at your average point man, your average point man is a wiry light guy that's quick and nimble and

• 1:28:29Jocko Willink?

  you look at your average machine gunner, he's a big hoss of a dude that can tow it around a bunch of weight. But also, there's a bunch of skinny little guys that are carrying a machine gun. There's some big guys that walk point. And that's the way it is. So is there, is there a niche for certain body types? Yeah, I mean, there is. If you're a big guy, you, you should carry something big like a, like a machine gun. If you're a small guy, you should try and be in a situation where you're carrying a little bit of a lighter load, like a point man or a rear security dude. But both, do both. And there's a bunch of other, I mean, you know, you look at a radioman, radioman's got to carry a ton of weight too.

• 1:29:15Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, there's no real, there's no real advantage or disadvantage. I would say you don't want to be that big. And you don't want to be that small. But if you are, get some, you know, get some. There's just the way it is. There's going to be things, there's going to be things that are way harder for a bigger guy in the SEAL teams and in special operations. And there's going to be things that are harder for a smaller guy and that's the way it is. So.

• 1:29:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, if you've got to do submarine lockouts and you're a big guy, you're going to be in a little escape trunk, a little six foot sphere with a bunch of gear in there. It's not fun to be a big giant guy at that point.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:29:57Jocko Willink?

  And when you get to the beach after you lock out of the submarine and you've got to carry a 55 horsepower motor across the beach into a cash site and you're, you weigh 143 pounds, that's not going to be fun for you. You want that big 260 pounder to come over and throw that motor on his shoulder and carry it into position. So that's why you have everything at a SEAL platoon. That's why diversity is good in terms of body styles.

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  Next question. Good morning. Do you ever get edgy, perhaps hangry?

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  Near the end of a fast? If so, how do you deal with it? I tend to have more difficulty controlling my emotions during the last few hours. Thank you.

• 1:30:42Jocko Willink?

  Anyone that listens to me very often will probably know what I'm going to say here. If you think you're going to get edgy or you think you're going to get hangry, just be aware of it and don't get angry.

• 1:30:58Jocko Willink?

  Next question. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, if you're hungry and you're frustrated because you haven't eaten and now it's starting to get to you, just don't do that.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:09Jocko Willink?

  I actually, it's kind of like what we were talking earlier about surfing without a leash or about, you know, parachuting under a pressure situation where I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but I'm going to do it anyways.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:20Jocko Willink?

  And I get focused on it. It's the same thing for me. When I'm doing a fast, I don't, I actually enjoy the fact that I'm under some excessive stressful situation. In fact, I like it better, you know? I want to feel that. And then I want to be like, I want to say to myself, hey, You might get frustrated right now because you haven't eaten and your blood sugar is low. But I'm gonna be, I'm gonna use the Echo Charles approach of, hey, that's weakness, right? It's weakness. For me to be getting angry, it's weak. For me to be complaining because I'm on the tail end of a 72-hour fast, that's just weakness. I'm not gonna complain. What are you talking about?

• 1:32:04Jocko Willink?

  You don't need to eat for 30 days. People can go 30 days without eating. My daughter, when she was cutting weight for wrestling this past season, she, she would say that. She'd say, you know, I'd be getting, she'd say, you know, dad, I would get really hungry. And then I just think, people can live for 30 days without eating. I think I can make it through the next eight hours. Come on. It's not that big of a deal. There's no reason to get hangry. That's just an excuse. Don't do it. Carry on with your airborne self.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  Also, you know how, I've said this before, there's a difference between how you feel and then how you behave, you know? So you can get hangry on the inside, but once you start behaving like-

• 1:32:43Jocko Willink?

  Jiu-Jitsu men get angry on the inside.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  Trading Places, that was pretty good. Yeah, very good.

• 1:32:52Jocko Willink?

  You know, actually, now that I think about it, when I was doing deployments,

• 1:32:58Jocko Willink?

  back in the day, in the 90s, we watched, there was nothing to do on a ship. We didn't have internet. No one wrote us letters. No one cared about us. There was no, so all we did was play spades and watch movies. And the movies we watched were on videotape. Because this is back in the day, before CDs, before Netflix. You had videotape and we had a crate full of videos. And so we were watching the same, you know, cheesy movies over and over and over again. Probably Trading Places was one of them. So if you go back, if you were to go back further in the movies, you're not, because, because what, am I five years older than you?

• 1:33:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, five, six.

• 1:33:36Jocko Willink?

  Five or six years? Yeah. So I'm just five or six years ahead of you on movies. So there's a whole bunch of cheesy movies that I actually know about, that you might not know about. And occasionally we're getting an overlap, Trading Places.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Trading Places, iconic movie, Eddie Murphy, the man.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, but hangry, right?

• 1:33:54Jocko Willink?

  Karate man bleed on the inside.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  Hang, I like that word, hangry, by the way, that's fun, funny, but that implies that you're kinda like, oh, I'm hangry, you know? Like, like you're expressing yourself.

• 1:34:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:34:11Jocko Willink?

  Don't express yourself.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:13Jocko Willink?

  Keep your emotions in.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  Keep it on the end and act like a winner. You feel, you can feel like a loser on the inside.

• 1:34:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  You can feel hangry, but act like, don't act like that.

• 1:34:23Jocko Willink?

  Don't ever let other people see you be all pathetic like that. Cause be like, oh yeah, I haven't eaten in four days, whatever.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 1:34:31Jocko Willink?

  You, you know what? No, did you hear this joke? You know what I mean? Just, hey, I haven't eaten in six days. Hmm, no big deal. I'm gonna go train jujitsu. What are you doing?

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:40Jocko Willink?

  Nothing.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  Yep. So, yeah.

• 1:34:42Jocko Willink?

  Oh, what are you doing, sitting around being weak?

• 1:34:46Jocko Willink?

  Don't do that.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  I'll be over here doing something else.

• 1:34:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, yeah, separate, separate your feeling and your behavior. And typically when it's the, and you know, you even have a word for it. You, it's not like it crept up on you and I had, I had no control over it. No, you, you identified it, gave it a name, everything. And, and if, I mean, if my experience serves me, a lot of times when people say like, oh, I have, I get hangry or I'm PMSing or I'm whatever it's to explain their common behavior. Meaning they just let it go. They embrace, that's how.

• 1:35:17Jocko Willink?

  It's an excuse.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  That's how it is for them, kinda thing.

• 1:35:20Jocko Willink?

  Please forgive me, I'm hangry.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get like that sometimes. What, what are you talking about? And you just let it go, you know? Be like that on the inside, be good on the outside. Separate the feelings versus behavior. Next question.

• 1:35:33Jocko Willink?

  Stifle your emotions inside.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  You know, they say like, if you get like emotions, you gotta like, let it out, punch a pill or whatever.

• 1:35:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  I guess as it turns out, that's not true.

• 1:35:45Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  Because if you internally, you know how you, you say stifle them.

• 1:35:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, the reason I kinda say that with sarcasm is because I think the, the...

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  For instance, yeah, like you're saying, people these days, they say, oh, you know, you gotta let your emotions out. You gotta let your emotions out. You got, if you gotta cry, cry. If you, and I understand where that's coming from. And you can get to a point as a person, if there's something that's really traumatic that's happening and all you do is hold it in. And I've seen guys get destroyed over that because they're not expressing the emotions that they have.

• 1:36:23Jocko Willink?

  But that's

• 1:36:26Jocko Willink?

  at a big level, right? At a daily level? No. You don't express those things. You keep them inside. That's why I say it like that. Like I'm being kind of sarcastic, but at the same time, I'm being serious.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's just, don't let your emotions out and into the world. Keep them for yourself. Own them.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  Keep them for yourself. Don't share them with other people if you don't have to.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:50Jocko Willink?

  Now, again, people are gonna freak out that I'm saying this, cause bury your emotions. Cause that what happens when you bury your, when you've got something really traumatic that you bury, then it eats you apart. And I've talked about that. I mean, talking about things that you go through in life and, and expressing those feelings that you have about them, that's good. But what we're talking about is not that. What we're talking about is daily emotions, little ups and downs, little tick marks on your Richter scale. We're not talking about a, an eight point eight on the Richter scale, right? We're talking about just like little twos.

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:24Jocko Willink?

  And when you express those twos and threes on the Richter scale out to people, you just look unstable.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  Hangry. That's a two.

• 1:37:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a two.

• 1:37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, overall, and, and this, I'm not to split hairs or nothing, but overall, it's, it's more about dealing with your emotions, quote unquote. So yeah, if you, if you, if a good conducive way to deal with your emotions is to let them out, and there's all different kinds of emotions. Like if you're sad, if something's eating you up on the inside because of sadness or whatever, and it's conducive to your recovery development, whatever, to express

• 1:37:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  those emotions, then yes. But if you're hangry and you lose your temper on your kid, that's not gonna, you're not dealing with your emotions correctly. So in

• 1:38:07Jocko Willink?

  Stifle your emotions.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  But it's not, it really, it is stifling them, but before you stifle them, you're identifying them. You're like, oh, hey, I'm hangry. Okay, I identified that. I'm gonna separate feelings from behavior. That's dealing with your emotions right there. That's dealing with them.

• 1:38:22Jocko Willink?

  It's a great point that. Oftentimes, expressing your emotions to the world doesn't improve your situation or your position at all. Correct. In fact, I would say that most of the time, expressing your emotions to the world sets you back. And that is why I vote in many cases to stifle your emotions, keep them in. Don't let other people see. You put your cards on the table, right? You put your emotional cards on the table. Now you can't gamble anymore. You can't, you're not in the game anymore. The person knows what's going on, that you're giving it to them. You're not gonna know what I'm thinking. You're gonna think I'm just, everything's cool with me. We're training jujitsu, right?

• 1:39:04Jocko Willink?

  If I'm getting frustrated and I show that to you, what does that do? You're getting, also you just go level up. You're thinking, oh, I got him. He's frustrated right now. He can't, oh, I'm working. This is working against him. If I'm just saying the same face all the time, which is what I do primarily. Hey, same face all the time, just, you know, moving the same way. When you do get me, I forget what you say, when you get me to react to something good. Recognize the urgency. Yeah, you say, you say, oh, I recognize a little urgency there. And I always go, damn. I don't want him to recognize. I'd rather just have you just pass my guard and yours is there. And me just sit there like it's no big deal, cause it's not. You meant. Then me get all panicky, where then you level up a little bit. And it's the same thing with life, right?

• 1:39:48Jocko Willink?

  Every time you express these big emotions to your boss or to your team. You express these big emotions to your team, they see all your cards. Don't let them see all your cards. Is this manipulating? Kind of, right? This is one of those things where people think, oh, transparency, we hear that all the time these days, transparency. You gotta be transparent. No, actually you don't. Yeah, not with that. You don't have to be transparent all the time. You have to win the game. You know what? Does the football coach go out and hand his playbook to the other football team? No, he's gotta win the game. Yeah, typically, no. And that's not how you win the game. So, are we, you know what we're doing? We're playing chess. It's emotional chess. You're playing with other human beings.

• 1:40:31Jocko Willink?

  You wanna win. Now, if you're winning so that I can take advantage of you, so I can manipulate you and get something from you that you don't wanna give me, that's bad. And I'm not talking about doing that. But if what I'm doing is keeping my calm so that instead of escalating an argument with you, I'm getting you to see it from my perspective just by remaining calm. That's what we're talking about here. You know, Leif told that story the other day where he tells the story a lot because it was a hilarious story where I came in, we didn't have a chance to talk to each other as he was planning this big operation. And I come in 10 minutes before the operation. I said, hey, let me, let me see what you're doing. And he kind of shows me on a map. Hey, we're gonna go here, here and there. And it's like, hey, you should do this instead.

• 1:41:14Jocko Willink?

  And he was like, dude, we're leaving in 10 minutes. And I said, man, but just think about it. And he goes, you know what? Just cancel the op. And he was all mad, right? And, and you know, he's, he's like, and Jocko kind of like laughed at me. I didn't laugh at him like a, like a, like a jerk, you know? No, but I was like, hey, man, listen, just think about what I'm saying right now. But that's, that's an example. I, I didn't show my emotions, which was, which would be more like, dude, are you serious right now? You're gonna cancel an op because we have a difference of opinion? Think about what you're, I didn't do that. I was like, hey, man, I get it. Everyone's stressed out right now. We gotta leave on this thing quickly. Think about what I'm saying though. Look at, this is all I'm saying. We could execute this in a better way. So that's what I'm talking about. Does that make me manipulative?

• 1:41:59Jocko Willink?

  No, it doesn't make me manipulative. It makes us as a team do a better job. And as soon as Leif saw that, he was like de-escalated himself. He was good to go. We move on. So that's what I'm talking about. Stifle your emotions at all times.

• 1:42:16Jocko Willink?

  You know, and, and just to address that though, for real.

• 1:42:20Jocko Willink?

  When you do see the big emotional impactful things in someone's life. And they don't express them, that absolutely is bad. And I'll tell you where you see this a lot is with kids. You know, kids, teens, where they, they, there's something bothering them. And they don't, they hold it in, hold it in because they don't have anybody to talk to. They can't talk to mom and dad because mom and dad don't get it. Their friends are the people that they're pissed off and pissed off at anyway. So they can't tell them what's going on. So they sit there and they harbor a lot of that anger. And that can be, that can be very problematic. And it goes through all through, you know, adults as well. And, and you know, at work. Sometimes people, well, they got problems at home. So they can't talk to their wife because that's what the problem was.

• 1:43:05Jocko Willink?

  They can't talk to their husband because that's the, the source of the problem. But then they get to work and they don't want to look like the person that's got problems at home. So they're not going to say anything there either. And the next thing you do, what are they doing? They're trying to escape those problems. How are they doing it? Instead of, instead of letting those problems out and talking to somebody about them. They're having a, you know, having a drink in the afternoon, getting on the alcohol, whatever. They're doing something that's negative and they're not moving forward at all. So those are not the kind of feelings that, and emotions that you want to subdue or stifle. But these little ones and twos and threes on the Richter scales.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Being hangry.

• 1:43:37Jocko Willink?

  Get, get, get control of those things and stifle them.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  Stifling certain emotions, ones and twos, is a good way to deal with them. Because when these, because they're usually real spontaneous emotions anyway.

• 1:43:48Jocko Willink?

  And they'll, and they'll, they don't have the power to sustain. They're just gonna, they're there and then they just fade away. And that's cool. That's why, yes.

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  And then over time, now you're good at dealing with them in that way. When you get hangry and you've been, for one year, you've been dealing with it by just ignoring it. You know, in regards to behavior, just not acting on it. Now you're good at doing that. Now it's automatic. Now you don't get, you don't act hangry anymore. Next question.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Okay, this is part question, part opinion. In podcast 13, you stated effectively, not explicitly, that jujitsu is the martial art that takes the most time to become proficient. I disagree. Here's why. As a wrestler, I've been able to pick up jujitsu in a matter of about two months, to the point where I can submit a blue belt here and there. And mostly control purple belt, possibly there is wide skill range along belt switch. I only roll with lower level players.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  I might just be a bad teacher, but I've not, I've not had as much success teaching jujitsu guys to wrestle. After the same amount of, of time, they're.

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  After the same amount of time, there may be a low high school wrestling level. I've found it extremely difficult to teach judis players to shoot, penetrate with their hips, or effectively use their hips to defend us, or scramble. Possibly my sample size is too small to form an accurate opinion, but I'm curious of your thoughts on the topic. Thanks, love listening and learning.

• 1:45:20Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, I guess when I said that, I should have said grappling in general, which is definitely harder to achieve a basic level of competence in, rather than striking. Now, don't get me wrong. You take a skilled boxer, they will destroy an unskilled boxer. You take a skilled Muay Thai guy, they will destroy an unskilled Muay Thai guy. Do you, you've trained with good Muay Thai people before, right? The first person that I ever did that with, that was a skilled Muay Thai, legit skilled Muay Thai, it was like a black belt versus a white belt, right? I would think about throwing a kick at him, and he would check it, right?

• 1:46:02Jocko Willink?

  And then he would throw a kick at me before I even knew what was happening, right? They're that much better, they can see your hips, they move. It's the same thing with boxing, if you go against a good boxer, they'll jack you up, in that sport, right? In that sport, you will get worked. So, now, that being said, a good wrestler is a good grappler. You are a good grappler, and that's why you're able to pick up jiu-jitsu very quickly, because wrestling is grappling, which is jiu-jitsu. Are there differences? Yes, there absolutely are differences. But, it's like longboard surfing and shortboard surfing. If you're, or, or, or, baseball and softball.

• 1:46:46Jocko Willink?

  If you played baseball in college, when you get out on the, the, the office softball team, you're a killer. That's the way it is. It's because you played softball, you played baseball. You didn't play technically softball. It's the same thing with wrestling. And as far as the fact that it doesn't take long to learn, if you're a high level wrestler, to learn jiu-jitsu. Yes, absolutely. You'll learn it very quickly. Look at the history of the UFC. Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Randy Couture, Tito, all those high level wrestlers. And that's the history. Because guess what? High level wrestlers are there right now, too.

• 1:47:26Jocko Willink?

  Jon Jones, DC. It's wrestlers, it's wrestlers and wrestlers. Now, are there other guys that come in and fill it? But the, I would say the majority base is wrestling.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:42Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:47:45Jocko Willink?

  Now, you also have to look, speaking of history, you have to look at the early UFC's or you go to any gym. And the fact is, the fact is, a jiu-jitsu only guy beats a wrestling only guy in a fight nine times out of 10. That's the way it is. That, now, if the wrestler can learn very quickly, but if the wrestler only knows wrestling, and the jiu-jitsu guy only knows jiu-jitsu, the jiu-jitsu guy is going to win.

• 1:48:20Jocko Willink?

  Simply because the wrestler doesn't know how to finish the fight. He doesn't know how to finish it. He doesn't have any submission holds to finish a fight. So can they occasionally, nine times, you know, one time out of 10 or whatever, get something? And, and yes, that can happen. But, and also, I'm not talking about if you take a NCAA wrestler, and you put him against a white belt, or maybe even a blue belt. There's a chance that the blue belt can't submit him. The guy's just too strong. That's if he has some awareness. If he has no awareness whatsoever, he's gonna get tapped out.

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:56Jocko Willink?

  And if you watch the early UFC's, that's exactly what happened. You know, the wrestlers, they might get positioned, but they were getting choked, they were getting tapped. And you go to any gym right now, you have a tough wrestler walk in that doesn't know any jiu-jitsu, he's gonna get tapped out. I mean, for instance, right now, at our gym, we got a really good wrestler named Taylor Johnson, and I'll bring his name up because he, it's, I can remember it all because it's all been recent. He's been training now for less than a year. When he first came in, he was getting tapped out. You know, that's the way it is. He's a phenomenal wrestler. Two months later, he wasn't getting tapped out. Six months later, he's tapping people out. So, that's what happens.

• 1:49:39Jocko Willink?

  But, if you take physically kinda close people and you put pure wrestling against pure jiu-jitsu, jiu-jitsu's gonna win. Now, there's also another thing that you're probably noticing in this situation. And that is, that wrestling, wrestling selects for athleticism. Right? Wrestling selects for athleticism. And for you to be competitive in wrestling, you need to be strong, quick, athletic, agile. All those things are important. And, and I've seen that, you know, with the, the school where my kids wrestle, and you see it, what it's like when you get a strong athletic kid,

• 1:50:20Jocko Willink?

  and how they're able to execute moves better than someone that's not that good of an athlete. And so, wrestling does that. Wrestling is selective. So if you wrestled, guess what? You're a really good athlete. You, and if you did well wrestling, or you wrestled for a long time, you developed that athleticism because you had to be explosive, you had to train hard. So, that's that. Also, blue belts, you look at a blue belt, a blue belt is basically a person that's been doing jiu-jitsu for a year. Maybe two years. Right? So-

• 1:50:57Jocko Willink?

  That's the same thing as a lower level high school wrestler, right? A low level high school wrestler is a guy that didn't start wrestling until he was a freshman year. Started wrestling. Well, that's a low level high school wrestler. And guess what? He's getting beat. So you should be, if you're a good wrestler, you should be able to, once you understand the basic principles of jujitsu, you should be able to beat blue belts because they're a year into the game. That's the way it is.

• 1:51:26Jocko Willink?

  Now, you take a competitive wrestler and you go against somebody that's, you know, seven years in, and now they're a brown belt. Well, that's, that's a competitive high school wrestler. That's a senior and he started training in sixth grade. That's seven, eight years. Go against a seven or eight year jujitsu guy, you've got, now you've got a good match. And likely the jujitsu guy's gonna win. Now, again, if you take no, if you take a pure wrestler versus pure jujitsu, the jujitsu guy's gonna win all day, all day. So, um, you know, there's no denying, and like I just said, there's a reason that wrestling is the, the premier skillset in the UFC that predicts champions.

• 1:52:09Jocko Willink?

  No doubt about it. It is a great and incredible martial art. I, I wish that, that wrestling had kept its roots, as catch wrestling and still had submission holds and all that, because it would just completely change the game. But it doesn't, so you have to add them later. There's also something else too, where I think that, I think that people in general, wrestling's not for everybody, right? It's a very hard sport. And I think that people avoid that grind of, as far as, as far as, okay, you're gonna get good at wrestling now? I'm a jujitsu guy. Now I'm gonna make you good at wrestling? Jitsu guys avoid the grind. I shouldn't say all of them, but some.

• 1:52:50Jocko Willink?

  Often, jiu-jitsu guys avoid the grind of the takedowns and the intensity of wrestling. They're not looking for that. That's one of the things that makes jiu-jitsu appealing to a very broad range of people. Is that you can train it at a, at a mellower pace, right? And that's also why if you go do jiu-jitsu tournaments, wrestlers do really well in jiu-jitsu tournaments. Because they understand the intensity of rounds, of limited time, of smashing someone, of going all out. Jiu-jitsu guy that's been training in the gym, they ain't ready for that first tournament. There's no jiu-jitsu guy in the gym that goes to the first tournament and says, "Yeah, that was just like what I thought it was gonna be like." No, they're not used to that intensity, they're not ready for it.

• 1:53:33Jocko Willink?

  So, I mean, and, and of course, not taking away from jiu-jitsu guys that train like madmen with total intensity and get after it super hard too, because those guys exist as well. And also, last little thing on this. There are also some wrestlers that don't adapt to the slower pace of jiu-jitsu. They can't adapt to that, and they don't adapt to the slower pace of MMA. And so they, their whole career, they gas out. And there's plenty of pro MMA fighters, UFC, that have come in, high-level wrestlers, that they couldn't ever quite make the transition to MMA.

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, bottom line, these are, uh, these are points that I pretty much agree with, that the, that this, this guy made. And wrestling's awesome, I think it's a great base. I think it's, it's a form of grappling, and it complements jiu-jitsu. And jiu-jitsu complements it, and I wish that it was one sport.

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:38Jocko Willink?

  But it's not, so you have to do both.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it seems like...

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  Like to, because he was originally, not complaining, wasn't complaining, but he, his premise was that, you know, jujitsu is, is not in fact the hardest one to master, you know, wrestling, he's implying that wrestling is harder to, to master, you know, because he taught jujitsu guys wrestling and they didn't pick it up.

• 1:55:04Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:55:05Speaker 01

  That was kinda it. In jujitsu, you can break all kinds of wrestling rules in jujitsu.

• 1:55:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  And, but wrestling guys, when they'll come in, if they, they have to learn to break some wrestling rules, otherwise it's gonna be their detriment. Sure, a lot of them, a lot of them carry over.

• 1:55:25Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  A lot of, you know, a lot of the strength and explosives.

• 1:55:27Jocko Willink?

  I see, I see what you're saying.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  But man, if a wrestler can't break the rule to, to go to his back, you know?

• 1:55:33Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna get choked.

• 1:55:34Speaker 01

  Because a lot of wrestlers, wrestlers will give up their back all day, because they don't want to go on their back, you know? And that's why they're gonna get choked all the time. But if, like Taylor, that's a good example, bro, he'll flop to, he broke that rule quick, and that's why he's so good, because he can expand his mind and break that rule. So, but consider the jujitsu guy, right? Now, he has to learn all these, so he has to essentially, and not so much break the rule, he has to probably break some rules, you know, by not going to his back, whatever. But a jujitsu guy doesn't have to break any jujitsu rules necessarily.

• 1:56:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, case, case in point. Case in point, how much time and effort am I gonna put into learning a takedown correctly? When it barely decides the match?

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:56:17Jocko Willink?

  And so there's, there's a mental, there's a mental, uh, gap into the desire for knowledge, because if I, if you take me down, cool, I'm gonna guillotine you, I'm gonna, you're not gonna pass my guard. Whereas, when a wrestler shows up, he has to learn this stuff, otherwise he's losing, he's getting tapped out, he's getting choked.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:56:38Jocko Willink?

  So that's a great, great, uh, point there.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:41Jocko Willink?

  Very true.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 1:56:43Jocko Willink?

  You don't have to, you know, and even when you say, okay, jujitsu should focus more on takedowns, and it's really cool, and you should definitely focus on takedowns, you gotta learn them, and it's very important, but at the back of your mind? As a jujitsu guy?

• 1:56:57Speaker 01

  I'm like just bulldog.

• 1:56:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't really care if you take me down, it's okay.

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  Or, and then now we're talking about, in this case we're talking about-

• 1:57:03Jocko Willink?

  I'm not saying that me personally, cuz I don't like-

• 1:57:04Speaker 01

  Right, right, I'm just saying potentially, but, and here's the thing to even add to that even. If you're considering the comparison of wrestling and jujitsu, take the takedown situation. Take, not all takedowns are quote-unquote wrestling takedowns. I can be like, okay, I can not learn wrestling at all and still be good at takedowns. If I learn judo, or if I, you know, if I learn something else. So, again, so it goes, it's basically you're taking something really vast with a lot of easy ways to maneuver around certain techniques and still be vastly successful. And then you're, you're basically saying, okay, let's take that, a person who has that approach, and narrow it down to this much more difficult approach and way less effective approach, essentially.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  It's the vastness of grappling, I can still be successful in grappling without learning X, Y, Z wrestling moves. And then you wanna teach them these X, Y, Z wrestling moves, probably some that can go against you. Especially when it comes to energy, energy conservation and all this other stuff. That's why a guy, maybe, yeah, it might be difficult to, to learn that, but how you said, there's a gap in the motivation to learn.

• 1:58:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a motivation-

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  So it's difficult to wanna learn or care, or care about learning this thing when it's gonna serve me less in my grappling.

• 1:58:18Jocko Willink?

  No doubt, you can just look at the human facts of jujitsu. There's a reason why takedowns are not emphasized very much in jujitsu at a normal academy. In normal academy, they do not have the focus on takedowns like wrestling.

• 1:58:38Speaker 01

  Wrestling, yeah.

• 1:58:38Jocko Willink?

  Wrestling, the takedown wins you, doesn't win you the match automatically, but that's a huge part of wrestling, is getting the takedowns. Jiu Jitsu, it's, it's a little tiny percentage of the match. Does it give you two points? Yeah, but it doesn't mean anything to me because I'm going to submit you.

• 1:58:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just the nature of the, of the game, you know, wrestling is takedown pin, there's more to it. I understand, but Jiu Jitsu is just submit the guy, you know, so Jiu Jitsu in, in a way, it's like just, just get it to the ground. You can win off your back, you can win from the top. You can, wrestling is not like that.

• 1:59:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, people literally pull guard.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  And then win from their back. Spend zero seconds on top, zero, and win the match.

• 1:59:21Jocko Willink?

  And so, so the fact that you can pull guard gives you this entire out to get away from doing takedowns. And you can still be victorious very, very often.

• 1:59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that goes along with these, even these techniques that he mentioned, like, you know, uh, you know, see hip, basically that, there's, there's a lot of moves in there. They're big moves. Big moves and they do help you, but like I said, they're just, they're simply not necessary. You know, I mean, any physical move is helpful to know and how to defend, whether it be from offensive, uh, you know, or defense position, but again, if you're trying to narrow it down and teach these guys who, their approach and their knowledge comes from the vastness of grappling and you want to narrow it down to this thing, it may or may not work, you know, and it may or may not serve you. It could work against you, but here, let's try to learn this real hard. Yeah, you're going to have that gap in motivation.

• 2:00:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, those guys actually don't care about the takedowns.

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:19Jocko Willink?

  And I'm going to go on record now as saying this. Just because Jiu Jitsu doesn't focus on takedowns, doesn't mean that you shouldn't focus. You should learn takedowns. You need to know takedowns from a self-defense perspective, from an MMA perspective. Takedowns, wrestling, you have to do it. I mean, that's why my kids wrestle, you know, it's because I didn't wrestle and I hate that fact. Because I go against a, like he's saying, you know, I go against a good high school wrestler. It's hard for me to take them to the ground, you know? You get somebody that wrestled in college, I know what's, I know I'm not going to. Now, I, I have developed good takedown defense over the years and it's actually takedown offense

• 2:01:02Jocko Willink?

  because I have offensive ways of defending the takedown, you know, I'm going to throw submissions and stuff. But I can't go back in time and go through.

• 2:01:15Jocko Willink?

  The, the training that you get when you're a high school wrestler and, and a college wrestler. I can't do that. I can't do it. I mean, I just don't have the time and the motivation to do it. Because I'm in the same boat as, as you know, what the guy that you're just talking about. How much time am I going to focus on takedowns? I know I go against a college wrestler, he's taking me down. I go against a good high school wrestler, there's a good chance he's taking me down.

• 2:01:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:42Jocko Willink?

  So how much time and effort? I mean, I could spend the next five years, I could go through a competitive circuit. I could join the wrestling club, but am I going to do that right now? Is that time effective or do I just want to get better at jiu-jitsu? And then have access to the rest of the grappling spectrum that you just talked about? Well, it's an obvious choice. I'm going to focus on the spectrum that has the most, uh, the most application in every situation I'm going to be in.

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:10Jocko Willink?

  So if you, if you get the chance, wrestle, wrestle as much as you can. Learn your takedowns, drill your takedowns, put your kids into wrestling. Jiu-jitsu for sure, put your kids into wrestling.

• 2:02:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:21Jocko Willink?

  They don't have to worry about it then.

• 2:02:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Fact remains, some people, they don't want that beef, you know, where you gotta go and wrestle. You're, man, that's hard, you know, and even like a wrestling, you can have a wrestling style to your jiu-jitsu. You know, but again, if you, if you don't want that.

• 2:02:38Jocko Willink?

  You know who didn't wrestle? Craig, Craig Baker.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Baker, yeah.

• 2:02:42Jocko Willink?

  Didn't wrestle.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:43Jocko Willink?

  If you, if you train with him, you'll be like, where did you wrestle in college is what you'll be thinking. He's pure jiu-jitsu.

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:49Jocko Willink?

  Didn't wrestle in college.

• 2:02:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Didn't wrestle in high school.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:52Jocko Willink?

  Didn't even wrestle in high school. He feels like a total wrestler when you train with him.

• 2:02:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:02:55Jocko Willink?

  And his takedowns are great.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:57Jocko Willink?

  And there's some Brazilian guys that have come up that, you know, Brazilian UFC fighters that are very good wrestlers that never wrestled before. They have really good takedowns.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:05Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 2:03:07Jocko Willink?

  But you know, you're gonna, you're gonna have to, you have to work for that. And these kids that come out of high school.

• 2:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:12Jocko Willink?

  That wrestled in high school, they got it.

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:15Jocko Willink?

  It's a little gift.

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  That work has been put in.

• 2:03:17Jocko Willink?

  Yes, little gift that they got.

• 2:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, but for these guys, and back to the question, for these guys that he's trying to teach, and he totally says, like, it could be my sample size, I understand. And that's a good point, actually, but um, because the sample size be big, you can get guys like Craig, they'll pick that stuff up real quick. But at the end of the day, when it comes to, as he put it, when it comes time to shoot, penetrate with their hips, or effectively use their hips to defend or scramble, you can omit all of those things from a jujitsu guy, and he can still win.

• 2:03:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  And be vastly successful, you know, so.

• 2:03:49Jocko Willink?

  Scramble, hmm, you gotta, yeah, scrambles, scrambles, a questionable one. You have to be able to scramble.

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but again, I mean.

• 2:03:59Jocko Willink?

  You, scrambling is a very good valuable thing to have in jujitsu.

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:04Jocko Willink?

  Much more valuable than, you know, being able to penetrate on the shot.

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I agree. But yeah, wrestlers, right, that's a weird, that's such an interesting one, bro, I roll with this, I'm, I feel bad that I forget his name, but I roll with him every time I see him. And he's swallowing me, I give him maybe 165 maybe, and but, an awesome wrestler, new guy too, under one year. And his game is wrestling, but he's like high level wrestler, you know, so. If I play the wrestling game, and I know, I know wrestling, like I'm solid, I can wrestle against good wrestlers, maybe not Taylor, but good wrestlers, so I can play, and I'm bigger than him, you know? So if I go and wrestle to wrestle this guy, bro, he like.

• 2:04:43Jocko Willink?

  He runs game on you.

• 2:04:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, he'll run his game.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  But if I, if I just slow down in my mind, be like, okay, he's a wrestler, then let's just, yeah, let's work around the wrestling, oh, no problem.

• 2:04:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:54Speaker 01

  You know, but once, once he, if he can give up the wrestling rules, you know, you know how you.

• 2:05:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  He, cause he has that athleticism, he can switch his hips like all quick, base just like, like he's built into the ground, that's how good his base is, you know, it's. But yeah, wrestling.

• 2:05:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I guess from a human nature perspective here, if you were to apply this to other situations in life, think about, when you're trying to get people to do things, think about. The motivation that they have in their head, not motivation of like, hey, let's go. But the actual, the actual mental motivation of what they're going to gain from what you're trying to give them. And do they see the reason of why it's important?

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:38Jocko Willink?

  Got to apply that across the board.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  Jiu Jitsu is life.

• 2:05:43Jocko Willink?

  Wrestling is life.

• 2:05:43Speaker 01

  Wrestling is life.

• 2:05:44Jocko Willink?

  Grappling.

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  Grappling is life. Next question. Hello. Do you happen to have a podcast discussing loyalty to marriage that involves marriage to a service member? I see many marriages, military spouse, where the service member has a great background in the military, but lacks marriage at home.

• 2:06:06Jocko Willink?

  You know, I actually have answered this question before and maybe not this specific, but I'm going to go over it quickly just because this isn't just about military, you know, relationships. It's about any relationship, but you know, from a military perspective, absolutely. Military relationships are very hard. You've got time away. You've got classified work. There's a lack of understanding of what's going on at work and you've got lives at stake, right? And with that, the job has to come first. And that's a very hard thing for people to understand that the job has to come first. Why does it have to come first? For survival. Because the harder you train,

• 2:06:50Jocko Willink?

  the better you know your teammates, the better shot you are, the better your chance for actual survival in a combat situation. So a spouse has got to understand that, right? That in order for the service member to take care of the family, the service member has to do his utmost to prepare himself and his team for war.

• 2:07:21Jocko Willink?

  The number one priority. Now, what the spouse has to understand is that this doesn't mean that he wants to spend time away from his family. He doesn't want to prioritize his team over his family. He doesn't want to miss the recital, doesn't want to miss the ballgame, doesn't want to miss the teachers conference. But he has to. He has to. So spouse, don't be mad when he makes that priority.

• 2:07:58Jocko Willink?

  Accept and understand that the family is the number one priority. It is the number one priority, but in order to be there for the family,

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  he's got to prepare for war so that he can come home to his family after deployment. Now, this, this obviously also applies to police. This applies to firefighters and I'll tell you what, it applies really to the breadwinner,

• 2:08:31Jocko Willink?

  man or wife, husband or wife, in any walk of life, right? If you're the breadwinner for the family.

• 2:08:39Jocko Willink?

  You've, that's what you're doing. You, the way that you're taking care of the family is by bringing home money so that there is food and housing and clothing and a secure future. That's what you're doing.

• 2:08:55Jocko Willink?

  And so the spouse in these situations has to understand that the hard work, the hard work and the hours and the days and the weeks that are taken away from the family

• 2:09:08Jocko Willink?

  is actually done to provide for the family, right?

• 2:09:13Jocko Willink?

  So that's the key piece that, that people have to understand, that, that the spouse has to understand.

• 2:09:21Jocko Willink?

  Now, the service member, and again, I've, I've talked about this before, the service member or the firefighter or the police officer or the breadwinner, what they have to do is they have to make sure that they don't go overboard.

• 2:09:36Jocko Willink?

  That they draw the line somewhere that they don't destroy what it is that you're trying to protect, don't destroy what it is you're trying to take care of, don't give the, the plant so much water that you drown it. Don't cook the steak so long that you burn it. Don't work so hard for your family that you don't have a family anymore. You gotta have the balance. And one of the things that you gotta do is you gotta explain that to the family and you gotta tell them what's up and you gotta tell them that they are the most important thing and that all this work that you're doing that's taking you away from them is actually being done for them.

• 2:10:20Jocko Willink?

  And you gotta communicate that to them, they gotta understand, it's hard for them, it's hard for a, a, a eight-year-old kid to understand why you're missing the, the, the baseball game or what the, the six-year-old girl while you're missing the, the jujitsu tournament or whatever. It's hard to explain that. But you've gotta at least try, you gotta make it evident to them and you also have to make sure you don't abuse it. Right? Because work, work can be fun. And hanging out with our teammates for an extra day of shooting or an extra day of jumping or having a beer at the pub on the way home, that can all sometimes be more appealing than

• 2:11:02Jocko Willink?

  the recital, than the ballgame. So, don't abuse it. You, you have to take care of your family and you have to talk to each other and understand this balance together. Understand the sacrifices that are being made on both sides so that you can work it out and maintain the strength of that entity, the family that you're trying to take care of.

• 2:11:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I mean, I walked the line on this one. I work hard and I worked hard for my whole life.

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's gonna depend too, right? I mean, like how you say, don't work so hard that you don't have a family. It depends how rigid or resilient like the family is. And that has to do with like, you know, you explaining and it's kind of like lifting and overtraining. You know, I'm lifting so I can get these results when I rest or all this stuff, right? But if I'm just lifting, no resting, but it's gonna depend on how strong I am to begin with, kind of thing. So, I mean, yeah, man, it makes sense, you know?

• 2:12:12Jocko Willink?

  It's a helpful.

• 2:12:13Speaker 01

  I think if you explain it though, like how you say with everything, just keep explaining. Bro, my daughter yesterday, last night asked me why, she wasn't sad or nothing like that, but she's like, why do you work so much? Thing is, I mean, let's face it, I don't work so much, but as far as she's concerned, if I'm not playing with her at that moment, or you worked too much, I can work one minute, I work too much. But I was like, oh dang, I had to think of it from her perspective, you know? And I explained it, I explained it all, and she had fun me explaining it, you know? And now she understands.

• 2:12:40Jocko Willink?

  I had, you know, I was like, sitting having a dinner with my, with my family. You know, and we don't eat together every single night, because we're all busy doing a bunch of different things. So, we were having dinner and for some reason I had something going on, it's business where I was pulled out my phone and I was texting someone, going back and forth. And you know, one of my kids was, you know, why are you on your phone right now? And then, you know, my like wife chimed in, yeah, can't you just put that down? And I said, hey, just so everybody knows.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  Did you get defensive?

• 2:13:14Jocko Willink?

  I did get a little bit defensive. I said, just so everybody knows, if I could, I would take this phone and throw it in the ocean and never look at it again. But I have work to do. And sometimes my work involves working at night. And some, and most of the time, if I'm working at night, it's on this little gadget right here that I have to look at. So, that's why I'm doing this, not because I don't want to listen to you, not because I don't want to sit here and just focus on the family right now. But guess what? I got work to do and the work that I'm doing is not for me.

• 2:13:54Jocko Willink?

  It's for this family, so we can have a house, so we can have food on the table. So, back off!

• 2:14:04Jocko Willink?

  But they got the point, you know what I mean? I didn't really yell the back off point, but they, they understand, they, they realize, you know? And for, you know, for my, for my young daughter that was, you know, five years old at the time, I said, "This is how we get food and this is how you get toys. I have to work to buy you toys."

• 2:14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:21Jocko Willink?

  You know? "Do you not want any more toys?" She was like, "Mm, no, go ahead and answer the phone."

• 2:14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Did you have work to do? Yeah, the toy, the, the, that's why you have toys. That was part of my speech too.

• 2:14:33Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 2:14:34Speaker 01

  But I wasn't all nuts though.

• 2:14:36Jocko Willink?

  You didn't get nuts like I did?

• 2:14:37Speaker 01

  It wasn't very confrontational. She was like smiling, you know?

• 2:14:40Jocko Willink?

  She doesn't get confrontational.

• 2:14:41Speaker 01

  Keep in mind, when I'm working, she has the option to jump on my lap.

• 2:14:45Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:14:45Speaker 01

  Keep that in mind. So it's, it's, this isn't a troublesome situation for me and I understand that. But the point still is there though. You explain it like you explained it or like how I explained it. And if they know and they understand, then it's like, it's clear, you know? But not, that's not to say that they don't have a point though. Cause sometimes, especially if you don't explain or you're not engaged at all, these people who, you know, they're on the phone.

• 2:15:09Jocko Willink?

  You need to check yourself. That's why you need to check yourself and make sure that you're not going overboard, that you're not abusing it. Cause you know what? As, does that client really need to hear from me at this moment? The answer is, and this is, you know, I figured out years later, it's like, no, actually they don't need to hear from you right now.

• 2:15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Not all the time, sometimes.

• 2:15:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, sometimes, but they can hear from me a little bit later.

• 2:15:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:30Jocko Willink?

  After dinner.

• 2:15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. When I text you right back, you have to respond right back.

• 2:15:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. No, you have to respond right back.

• 2:15:39Speaker 01

  Sometimes I'm busy cruising.

• 2:15:41Jocko Willink?

  We got a, time for one more, you think?

• 2:15:43Speaker 01

  No, we don't, but we're gonna do that anyway. Jocko, do you have a specific place or time you spend thinking specifically about your fallen comrades?

• 2:15:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:04Speaker 02

  Anytime that things are going good in my life, any moment of happiness,

• 2:16:17Speaker 02

  anytime I'm enjoying my life or I'm thinking about

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  what the future holds,

• 2:16:30Speaker 02

  that's when I think about

• 2:16:33Speaker 02

  my friends that died.

• 2:16:40Speaker 02

  So, surfing, after a good wave and waiting for the next one, after some good jujitsu training, after a good workout, or a good meal, or maybe a smile, or a laugh with a friend, or having an ice cream cone with my with my daughter,

• 2:17:12Speaker 02

  or playing guitar with my son, or catching a catching a little smile from my wife.

• 2:17:23Speaker 02

  At those moments,

• 2:17:28Speaker 02

  at those moments, without a doubt,

• 2:17:32Speaker 02

  that's when I think of Mark, and that's when I think of Mikey, and that's when I think of Ryan.

• 2:17:39Speaker 02

  And that's when I think of

• 2:17:44Speaker 02

  just when I think of

• 2:17:47Speaker 02

  all those, those brave souls.

• 2:17:56Speaker 02

  Those brave souls that have fallen.

• 2:18:03Speaker 02

  And I always will.

• 2:18:06Speaker 02

  I always will.

• 2:18:09Speaker 02

  But you know, it's not... It's not a bad thing.

• 2:18:16Speaker 02

  And, and I don't want you to think that it, that it ruins the moment, because it doesn't. It doesn't at all.

• 2:18:25Speaker 02

  It doesn't fill me with sadness, or with sorrow, or with pain.

• 2:18:35Speaker 02

  And it doesn't make me angry, or frustrated, or depressed, or dark. And it doesn't make me focus on, on death.

• 2:18:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:18:57Speaker 02

  It doesn't do that at all.

• 2:19:08Speaker 02

  It makes, it makes me wanna live.

• 2:19:13Speaker 02

  Makes me wanna live more, and do more. It makes me wanna be more.

• 2:19:21Speaker 02

  To, to know, at those moments.

• 2:19:28Speaker 02

  Those precious moments, this, this life.

• 2:19:35Speaker 02

  This life is a gift from those men. They gave this to me. They gave me that moment.

• 2:19:49Speaker 02

  And because

• 2:19:53Speaker 02

  they gave it to me, they don't have it anymore.

• 2:20:00Speaker 02

  They gave us everything they had.

• 2:20:06Speaker 02

  Everything they had,

• 2:20:10Speaker 02

  they gave to us.

• 2:20:16Speaker 02

  So, I'm grateful.

• 2:20:24Speaker 02

  Grateful to them, and when I think of them,

• 2:20:31Speaker 02

  I'm not sad.

• 2:20:38Speaker 02

  When I think of them, I'm happy.

• 2:20:44Speaker 02

  I'm happy I knew them. I'm happy I served with such heroes.

• 2:20:56Speaker 02

  And I'm happy

• 2:21:00Speaker 02

  that they gave me the chance to be happy

• 2:21:09Speaker 02

  today.

• 2:21:17Speaker 02

  And I won't let

• 2:21:24Speaker 02

  the dark specter of death drag me down.

• 2:21:35Speaker 02

  I'll remember them.

• 2:21:40Speaker 02

  And for them,

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  I will live.

• 2:22:00Speaker 02

  And I think that's

• 2:22:05Speaker 02

  all I've got for tonight.

• 2:22:11Jocko Willink?

  So Echo.

• 2:22:15Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you take a quick minute? Or forty seven minutes and explain how someone can support this podcast if they want to.

• 2:22:27Speaker 01

  Yep, so.

• 2:22:30Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go right into it. If you're into supplements, well, actually, even if you're not into supplements on it. Supplements. It's actually not just supplements, though. It's like all kinds of stuff to improve your whole. Life game. Physical. So yeah, supplements, whatever.

• 2:22:48Jocko Willink?

  Mental.

• 2:22:49Speaker 01

  Mental, yeah, mental, physical.

• 2:22:54Speaker 01

  Emotional even. New mood.

• 2:22:58Speaker 01

  It's called new.

• 2:22:59Jocko Willink?

  I haven't tried that.

• 2:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got.

• 2:23:00Jocko Willink?

  I don't wanna new mood. I like my current mood, yeah. Somebody told me I should smoke pot.

• 2:23:07Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:23:08Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, you should, yeah, you should just try it. You know, you're out of the military now. You should just, you know, should try some pot. And I was like, oh. Interesting, but like, why do you think, you know, I should do that? And they said, well, you know, you you won't be so angry all the time then. And I said. I like being angry. I don't think I'll try your your potion.

• 2:23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is also kind of strange, even that, I mean. I know you don't actually like being angry. You're also not angry all the time.

• 2:23:36Jocko Willink?

  That's true.

• 2:23:37Speaker 01

  I don't think I've seen you angry, but maybe three times.

• 2:23:41Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 2:23:41Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 2:23:43Jocko Willink?

  What did I get angry at?

• 2:23:44Speaker 01

  You were angry at Dean for something.

• 2:23:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, yeah.

• 2:23:49Speaker 01

  And then.

• 2:23:51Jocko Willink?

  Something else.

• 2:23:52Speaker 01

  Actually, so one time. That was it. That was the only time. Like, actually, it was it was at Dean twice.

• 2:23:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, yeah, Dean can be frustrating.

• 2:24:00Speaker 01

  Hey, man. And if you're angry all the time. There's this thing called new mood.

• 2:24:06Jocko Willink?

  Have you taken it?

• 2:24:07Speaker 01

  I took it once, but.

• 2:24:11Speaker 01

  I didn't feel like I was in a new mood, but from the people that other people that take it. Cause you know, like, okay, so supplements like anything else is like you're, you're probably gonna take the ones that you feel like you need. Or you want help with, you know, like if you're like, okay, I gotta recover better from my, cause I work out so much. You're gonna take some kind of recovery thing, you know? My joints are, you know, whatever you're gonna take krill oil or something for your joints, whatever. So new mood is one of those ones where I was like, okay, I'm sleeping fine. I don't have necessarily like hangover situations or depression or, or anything where I need some enhancement. Not to say that I couldn't benefit, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying I'm not gravitating towards.

• 2:24:49Jocko Willink?

  So why'd you order it?

• 2:24:50Speaker 01

  I hear good things, man. I hear good things.

• 2:24:52Jocko Willink?

  Cause I'm thinking probably in the back of your mind, you're like, you know, I'm cruising right now, but I could probably cruise harder.

• 2:25:00Speaker 01

  Actually, no, I bought it for my wife. Cause she, you know how like, she's the kind where she like, if there's a task. Like, let's do the task, real task, you know?

• 2:25:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, someone that likes to get stuff done.

• 2:25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, I do know that type of person.

• 2:25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you can see why.

• 2:25:17Jocko Willink?

  She didn't like making videos, we could be in a whole new scenario right now.

• 2:25:21Speaker 01

  Anyway, I bought it for her. So, you know.

• 2:25:25Jocko Willink?

  So she wouldn't be so productive.

• 2:25:27Speaker 01

  No, no, cause she, she said that.

• 2:25:29Jocko Willink?

  She stresses from it.

• 2:25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially with the new ba-, I mean, kinda new, six, seven months, whatever, but you know, like, when it's time to go sleep, you know, the kind where, and I don't know if you're like this, but you know, the kind where, me, if I'm like, eh, I'm gonna go take a nap from three to four. When I go in at two fifty-nine to go take a nap, in the event of me doing that, I go into two fifty-nine, at three oh one, I'm probably either sleeping or close to sleep. You know, not everyone's like that where they'll be like, all this stuff was on my mind.

• 2:25:55Jocko Willink?

  Cause I go in to take a nap and I'm like, BTF, BTF, BTF, BTF, BTF, BTF, BTF, can't sleep, gotta get up and do more stuff.

• 2:26:02Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. So this new mood.

• 2:26:04Jocko Willink?

  I took a nap the other day though. I took a like serious nap. Yeah. I was just tired.

• 2:26:09Speaker 01

  Slacker.

• 2:26:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, tired on the couch.

• 2:26:13Jocko Willink?

  That's kind of a, yeah, no, couch naps are, are sort of, I don't like the couch naps.

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  Too bad. I think they're pretty dope.

• 2:26:20Jocko Willink?

  Cause I think you gotta go, all right, I'm gonna nap, boom, gonna feed up, elevate, set the alarm clock. Couch nap is just like, what happened?

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah, you know what's weird? In a way. And I'm just, I guess, I'm just speaking from experience. I don't have any like technical reason, but

• 2:26:36Jocko Willink?

  What else is new?

• 2:26:40Speaker 01

  It seems like the couch nap, you're in this mental state that is kind of like you have low expectations of comfort. You know, so your body's like, you know what? You might not be the most comfortable, but hey, you're not moving. So boom, you just fall asleep. But when I, when you can go like in your room and you lay down and you're like, wait, wait, wait. The temperature is just a little bit not cool. And then you're like, okay, let me adjust it down. Oh, wait, wait, wait. I hear something outside. Let me close the door, you know? So it's almost like you can't sleep because the conditions aren't perfect when you have that expectation of perfect conditions. But on the couch, you don't have that expectation. You're just like, it's like if you're napping outside on a grass.

• 2:27:15Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I don't have a blanket. I'll just pull this pillow over my left arm and I'll be good to go.

• 2:27:21Speaker 01

  Exactly right. So yes, no expectation. I mean, that just has to do with naps, but this is the new mood one. That's for like, if you have like stress, you know?

• 2:27:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, don't talk about it. If we don't know, then talk about another thing.

• 2:27:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think we do know. I think it, the conversation went in that direction of its own like momentum, I think.

• 2:27:42Jocko Willink?

  Well, next thing you know, we're

• 2:27:43Speaker 01

  Talking about naps. Yeah, I know, bro. I know. That's

• 2:27:47Jocko Willink?

  So on it.

• 2:27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. On it is the best supplement. Let's get that out of the way, like straight up factually.

• 2:27:56Speaker 01

  Brother, also they have like, you know, warrior bar, bro. The other day, so I got some warrior bars. Already had them, whatever. Did a workout and I like to eat after workout. Got to get a certain amount of protein in there and not necessarily, oh, I'm going for counting my macros. Nothing like that, but if you only have like one small piece of half piece of chicken leftover from like, you kind of need more, in my opinion. I needed more. So I was like, but I made cool, like it was like this brown rice. It was good, but I only had like this half piece of chicken. So I was like, shoot, I need more meat in there. Look in the fridge like nothing. So I got a warrior bar, two warrior bars, and chopped them up and like put it in there and like heated it up in the microwave. It was actually good. So it was like a buffalo meat, chicken, rice.

• 2:28:38Jocko Willink?

  Concoction.

• 2:28:38Speaker 01

  Concoction. It was good, though. Even you're used to Warrior Bars, kinda like beef jerky or like a.

• 2:28:44Jocko Willink?

  Was it like soft and moist?

• 2:28:47Speaker 01

  It was. No, it wasn't soft. It was still the Warrior Bar. It was just a warm Warrior Bar.

• 2:28:51Jocko Willink?

  But it was good.

• 2:28:52Speaker 01

  It worked. It worked. The flavor profile worked.

• 2:28:57Jocko Willink?

  I like it.

• 2:28:57Speaker 01

  Majestically.

• 2:28:58Jocko Willink?

  I'll have to give that one a run.

• 2:28:59Speaker 01

  Anyway, Warrior Bars, if you don't know what that is, there. Look on on it dot com. It's buffalo meat and it's dope. Gluten free, by the way. Um, anyway, so the main ones is what? Krill oil for your joints. You'd be surprised how much joint degeneration we all have. That's what I think.

• 2:29:14Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:29:16Speaker 01

  Get the krill oil. Also.

• 2:29:18Jocko Willink?

  You're trying to entice me into longer conversations. I'm not taking the bait. I don't wanna know about your joint degeneration.

• 2:29:24Speaker 01

  Yes, you do.

• 2:29:24Jocko Willink?

  You keep that in your mind.

• 2:29:26Speaker 01

  No, bro, of course you're the one who turned me on to it. So you care.

• 2:29:29Jocko Willink?

  Joint degeneration.

• 2:29:30Speaker 01

  Joint.

• 2:29:31Jocko Willink?

  I gave you krill oil.

• 2:29:32Speaker 01

  Krill oil for joint maintenance. This is, okay. This is where krill oil. Okay, so this Greg, Greg Train McIntyre asked me, not yesterday, not the, last time I saw him, uh, Sunday.

• 2:29:45Speaker 01

  I hear fish oil. Like what? No, it was Juan who asked it. Greg was just there. Um.

• 2:29:51Jocko Willink?

  Juan each.

• 2:29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. He said, Phil, what's the difference between fish oil and krill oil? Cause I take fish oil or whatever. What's the difference? Okay, here's the difference.

• 2:30:01Speaker 01

  My dad, uh, my wife's dad would say that this dude, krill oil is better. This is why. Cause krill oil, the omega threes, the omega threes, that's what you're going for. So they both fish oil and krill oil omega threes. So fish oil attaches to your triglycerides. Krill oil omega threes attached here, phospholipids. So. What does that mean? Who cares? Right? Who cares about? I just want it, you know, in my joints. So.

• 2:30:27Speaker 01

  Let's say your joints are a nightclub. Okay? Follow me. This is a perfect analogy. Your joints are like.

• 2:30:34Jocko Willink?

  Long analogy?

• 2:30:35Speaker 01

  I'm gonna make it short. Joints are, you're a nightclub. That's your joint, right? And you want the omega threes to get in there.

• 2:30:42Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:30:42Speaker 01

  Right? So omega threes are these, your crew.

• 2:30:47Speaker 01

  Okay. Jocko is triglycerides. Echo is phospholipids. Okay. Hey, Jocko's cool. His crew, the omega threes, we both have omega threes with us. They're attached to me. We're, me and you are on the guest list. Hey, who am I gonna let in Jocko and his rowdy crew of omega threes? Navy SEALs. They do burpees at random times. They, you know, or Echo, because they're just cruising. They both spend money. They both, all the omega threes spend money. They gotta be in the nightclub. But which omega threes is the bouncer gonna let in? Your omega threes? The omega threes attached to you, the triglyceride?

• 2:31:28Speaker 01

  Or to the phospholipids? Who's me? Who?

• 2:31:33Speaker 01

  Probably me. Yeah, okay. So anyway, boom, that's why the krill oil gets let in better. Can't say boom after a fourteen minute story. That's not fourteen minutes, that's like two minutes. But you see what I'm saying? That's basically how your body is. So it's like, hey, it's better absorption. Okay. Krill oil in that, you know, krill oil, krill oil format. Okay. For lack of a better term, it just gets better absorption. There's other stuff, do some antioxidants. We accept your explanation universally here. Anyway, get the krill oil. Take care of your joints. You'd be surprised the role they play in everything. That's my opinion. If you're not on that, get on that. Also, good way to support, Amazon. Click through.

• 2:32:13Speaker 01

  What you do is you go before you do your Amazon shopping, if you don't already, before you do your Amazon shopping, go through the website, JacoPodcast.com. Or Jocko Store, whichever. Click on the Amazon link. Also,

• 2:32:26Speaker 01

  it's also called support. Click on support or the Amazon link, whatever. Then, so you click through the website, then you go do your Amazon shopping. Outstanding way to support.

• 2:32:37Speaker 01

  Really good support. Then you do your shopping as you normally would and boom, instant support and, you know, it doesn't cost you anything. It costs you two seconds of your time for big support. So it's like, you know, small action, big reaction.

• 2:32:51Speaker 02

  Like sodium in water.

• 2:32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So yeah, so you understand now if you're, if you know what happens to sodium metal when you put it in water, that's gonna be you. That's the Amazon click. I'm just saying. I think it's important to like, remember that, cause it's.

• 2:33:04Jocko Willink?

  Apparently you do think it's important.

• 2:33:06Speaker 01

  That's dope, that's dope.

• 2:33:07Jocko Willink?

  Cause you remind us every time.

• 2:33:10Speaker 01

  Subscribe to the podcast. iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, all the podcast platforms. Um, and write a review if you're in the mood. That's a good one. Write a review. Support the rankings. If our podcast is in good rankings, that's cool. Right?

• 2:33:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 2:33:29Speaker 01

  I think so. Uh, or subscribe to, or and subscribe to YouTube. If you're into YouTube, you watch videos, you can see this podcast, obviously in video format, or all the excerpts that we put on there.

• 2:33:42Jocko Willink?

  You say that like there's this massive number of excerpts.

• 2:33:44Speaker 01

  There is, and there's more coming, and you know, these are good because you can share them with your friend, you know? If you, so, okay, so I have some technical knowledge of you. So I know how to share the link and then in the link that I share, I can manipulate the little URL or whatever. So when they click on the link, it'll start at a certain moment in the video, right? It's not hard to do, you just, there's little setting. But anyway, I can do that. So if I'm, if I'm like, hey, let me share Jocko's take on this with, with my friend Joe, or whatever. And he, cause I think he could benefit, or this is what he was asking me about, hey, here it is. I, I can send them the whole podcast. I just manipulate the thing to the, the little bookmark place where it can start.

• 2:34:29Speaker 01

  But if you don't, you don't wanna do all that, you can just find the excerpt that I put on the YouTube channel, you know? They're just more shareable. So they don't have to listen to the whole podcast to get the, you know, the specific lesson.

• 2:34:41Jocko Willink?

  That's really cool. You'd think that there would be a lot of those from your excitement about them.

• 2:34:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it depends on what you mean by a lot, but I think, yeah, there's some significant, you know?

• 2:34:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:34:52Speaker 01

  We're putting more on there.

• 2:34:53Jocko Willink?

  We'll be the judge of that over here on this end.

• 2:34:57Speaker 01

  Also, Jocko has a store. If you don't know, it's called jockostore.com. If you, um, you know, if, if you like these shirts that we make, and we put effort into the shirts. They're not like the cheap, make a stencil, spray paint, cheap Hanes. Not that Hanes is cheap, but cheap shirt here. Can you give away for, it's not that kind, they're good, like, quality.

• 2:35:23Speaker 01

  Same, same. I say the spray paint thing because I've made shirts like that before.

• 2:35:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're not that kind, they're good. They got some, you know, some cool design, if, if you like them. So check out those, go there, jockostore.com. If you want to support in that way, get a shirt and represent in the wild.

• 2:35:41Speaker 01

  Boom, women's stuff, whatever, shirts, patches, rash guards. Nineteen percent performance increase, proven. Hundred forty-seven percent proven, nineteen percent improvement. Hoodies as well, it's getting warmer, I understand, but still it's cold some places. Michigan, still cold.

• 2:35:58Jocko Willink?

  The, the hoodies are probably good for this time of year right now. Because they aren't the heaviest of weight. Next winter, we're gonna go Jocko style on the, on the hoodies. They're gonna be heavyweight. This year, we would Echo style.

• 2:36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:13Jocko Willink?

  Lightweight.

• 2:36:14Speaker 01

  Kawaii.

• 2:36:15Jocko Willink?

  Not super light, they're, they're, they're still hoodies, but they're not as heavy.

• 2:36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:20Jocko Willink?

  Duty.

• 2:36:20Speaker 01

  They're like medium heavy.

• 2:36:21Jocko Willink?

  They're, they're medium.

• 2:36:22Speaker 01

  I think technically they're, I think they are medium heavily, heavy technically.

• 2:36:26Jocko Willink?

  Next year, we're going heavy, heavy.

• 2:36:28Speaker 01

  Going heavy, heavy, yeah. Um, or we could go light for the spring, summer as well.

• 2:36:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, let's not just do like the whole fashion thing. We're only gonna make one kind from now on, heavy.

• 2:36:40Speaker 01

  Anyway, go there, jockostore.com.

• 2:36:41Jocko Willink?

  Start talking about the spring line of Jocko's clothing, stop.

• 2:36:46Speaker 01

  Spring collection, yeah. But yeah, see, you know, if, if something, uh, looks good to you, support that way, represent. Also, psychological warfare. Now, look, support the podcast, I, I dig it, and thank you.

• 2:37:01Speaker 01

  Everyone who's supported, but psychological warfare, that one is a support yourself situation. Really.

• 2:37:10Speaker 01

  If you're weak, this is what it is, Psychological Warfare, if you don't know already, I know I explain it every time, but I'm gonna explain it again. If you're feeling moments of weakness in regards to you're worked out, or waking up early, or slipping on the, on the whole diet program. And I don't mean diet, like, I'm just saying eating correctly, and not incorrectly. If you're about to slip on that, you get enticed, like my sister explained she did with her son, brings home some brownies. She couldn't help but eat the brownies, now she's paying for it on the treadmill, according to her, her words, not mine.

• 2:37:41Speaker 01

  At the moment of the introduction of the brownies, or donuts, as the case may be. You put on one of these tracks, it's called Sugar Coated Lies. Snack time, Sugar Coated Lies. Listen to Jocko, he'll explain to you some stuff that will cause you to not slip on that plan. And this goes for, like I said, waking up, doing the workout, uh, pushing yourself during the workout, all this stuff, getting your work done, all this stuff. So if you need a spot in those areas, look into that, it's called Psychological Warfare, Jocko Willink, it's on iTunes. Good way to support yourself, and by happenstance, it supports the podcast as well, double whammy, double gravitational thing.

• 2:38:26Jocko Willink?

  Also, while you're clicking through Amazon, you can order Jocko White Tea. You can get it on Amazon.com, do the click through, try it, be careful, be careful when you use it. But give it a try, see what happens, and I got a couple more, just reviews from Amazon.com. "Since taking it with me to the gym over ice, I not only get to enjoy the semi-sweet flavor of the tea, but I have also noticed increases in strength. On squats, I've noticed a 15 to 20% increase in strength while using it.

• 2:39:09Jocko Willink?

  And my deadlift has gone from 475 to 805."

• 2:39:16Speaker 01

  Excellent.

• 2:39:17Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, it says semi-sweet, there's no sweetener in the tea, it's just is what it is, there's no sugar in there. That would be just hypocritical, and I would have to close down my life.

• 2:39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be wack, for sure.

• 2:39:28Jocko Willink?

  Another one, no big deal.

• 2:39:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm not a tea drinker, but needed a sound substitute to kick the diet soda. Jocka white tea is what the reviews say. I drink it iced and I love the taste. Since drinking Jocka white tea, my total and free tea levels have increased.

• 2:39:54Jocko Willink?

  I don't have the labs to back up my claim, but my voice is deeper. My muscles are leaner, energy increased, and my wife's favorite result is increased stamina. I feel 21 again. Enjoy the tea and support the podcast.

• 2:40:10Speaker 02

  Dang.

• 2:40:11Jocko Willink?

  Again.

• 2:40:14Jocko Willink?

  Science. These are from Amazon, right? These are peer reviewed.

• 2:40:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Very reputable.

• 2:40:22Jocko Willink?

  These are reputable. And Jocka white tea, you can get it. And you could write a funny review like everybody else is doing. A little book coming out called Way the Warrior Kid. By the way, it's coming out soon. It's coming out May 2nd. It's gonna sell out. And once people read the initial ones that sell out, the people that got it, they're gonna order more. It's gonna be backordered and you're not gonna be able to get one. So order it now, real easy. Also, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, that's coming in October. Same thing. Order it so you can get a copy when it comes out. The manual will show you how to get after it. That's it. It's the field manual.

• 2:41:08Jocko Willink?

  You wanna know how to get after it? Here, get the field manual. Discipline Equals Freedom, you've heard that. You probably think that. You actually probably know that. How do you execute it? You get the field manual, follow the instructions.

• 2:41:20Jocko Willink?

  Workouts, thoughts, food intake, sleep habits, everything's in there. No factor. Extreme ownership also. It's just word of mouth, keeping it in the top 100 to 200 on Amazon. That's insane. Thank you all for spreading the word. And getting your people in the game.

• 2:41:44Jocko Willink?

  Get them a copy. You know what? Write a little note in the copy that you get for your team. Give them a little advice, what chapter you think is suited for them?

• 2:41:57Jocko Willink?

  Get them on board, up and down the chain of command, by the way. You don't want your whole team to be outperforming your leadership, which is what will happen if you just get the book for them and you.

• 2:42:09Jocko Willink?

  Echelon Front.

• 2:42:12Jocko Willink?

  Leadership and management consulting. Keynote speeches? Yep. We do those. Long range leadership alignment programs? Yes, that is what we do. So. Me. Leif, JP, Dave Burke. Combat Leadership Applied to Business and Life. Check the website, echelonfront.com or email [email protected]. Also, the muster.

• 2:42:47Jocko Willink?

  And again. This is not. A seminar about getting pumped up. No. It isn't a seminar about finding yourself.

• 2:42:59Jocko Willink?

  It's not going to help you. Channel your internal chi towards eternal bliss. It's not going to do that. It's not what the muster is about. The muster is about leadership.

• 2:43:15Jocko Willink?

  Pragmatic leadership skills. For you to use. In your business and your life, you work with people. You lead people. Or you aspire to lead people. Who's going to teach you how to do that? Where are you going to learn that from? Actual question, where do you learn that from? Who's going to teach it to you?

• 2:43:39Jocko Willink?

  That's the question. The answer is the muster.

• 2:43:44Jocko Willink?

  Learn to lead your people, learn to lead yourself. May 4th and 5th, New York City, Marriott Grand Marquis. Are we playing around? No. We are not. The first muster was awesome. Agreed. Why are we having a second muster? Because the first muster was awesome. That's why we're having a second muster. So come to it.

• 2:44:09Jocko Willink?

  And until we see you at the muster, because by the way, I'm gonna be there. Leif's gonna be there. JP's gonna be there. Dave Burke's gonna be there. If that's not enough for you, and you need something to kind of close the deal, don't worry, because Echo Charles is gonna be there, probably giving a four-hour speech to the public.

• 2:44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:32Jocko Willink?

  Until the muster, you can also find us more on the interwebs. Cruising. And in Echo's case, cruising hard. We're on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.

• 2:44:48Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink. And lastly, thanks for listening and giving us feedback and inspiring us to do this. Inspiring us to do better and to be better.

• 2:45:05Jocko Willink?

  Knowing that we aren't alone on this mission.

• 2:45:11Jocko Willink?

  Knowing that you all are with us in the game, standing watch,

• 2:45:19Jocko Willink?

  not backing down, not settling for average, not just going through the motions, but living.

• 2:45:28Jocko Willink?

  Living life, living life hard and fast and aggressively.

• 2:45:38Jocko Willink?

  And taking every opportunity to step up, step forward, step on fear, and step on failure,

• 2:45:51Jocko Willink?

  and step toward a better you.

• 2:45:57Jocko Willink?

  And step out

• 2:46:00Jocko Willink?

  into the unknown

• 2:46:04Jocko Willink?

  to get after it.

• 2:46:08Jocko Willink?

  So, until next time,

• 2:46:12Jocko Willink?

  this is Echo and Jocko. Out.