Oprah and Iyanla Vanzant on Daily Care for Your Spiritual Hygiene

Oprah sits down with world-renowned spiritual teacher, bestselling author and “fixer" Iyanla Vanzant for a powerful, soul-shifting conversation about her newest book "Spiritual Hygiene: A Practical Path for Clean Living, for Inner Authority, and for Divine Freedom." In this intimate and deeply personal episode Iyanla explains the transformative concept of spiritual hygiene—the idea that just as we tend to our physical hygiene our mental, emotional and spiritual well-being also require conscious, daily care. Iyanla shares what she’s learned and how she’s healed from her own childhood trauma as well as losing two of her adult daughters, Gemmia in 2003 and Nisa in 2023. Oprah and Iyanla are joined by audience members who bravely ask how they can cleanse their spirits of the pain, heaviness and generational burdens they’ve carried throughout their lives. Together they explore how spiritual hygiene offers clarity, courage and a way forward. This episode is a moving invitation to let go and step into a more grounded, spiritually spacious life. BUY THE BOOK! https://amzn.to/4yPSegO 00:00:00 - Welcome Iyanla Vanzant, author of ‘Spiritual Hygiene’ 00:03:40 - Meaning of spiritual hygiene 00:04:15 - Iyanla’s backstory 00:11:08 - The power of grief 00:13:30 - Parenting with spiritual hygiene 00:14:00 - Iyanla says she was a horrible mother 00:15:25 - The distinction between wrong and bad 00:17:50 - The meaning of divine freedom 00:19:00 - Everything is energy 00:20:30 - Healing the pain of being a daddy-less daughter 00:30:20 - Create your own spiritual hygiene 00:33:15 - How to be expressive with family 00:37:40 - Reorder your story 00:38:10 - The life you signed up for 00:40:00 - Look at far you’ve come 00:41:40 - The guilt of choosing yourself 00:46:15 - Always choose yourself 00:48:02 - A sacred no and a spiritual yes 00:52:00 - Everything has a purpose Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 02

  Somebody else can't learn their lessons in your life. Only you can learn your lessons. Somebody else can't learn their lessons in your life. And if you don't enjoy your life, your mother's misery will.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  So you've got to enjoy your life. Church is over.

• 0:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome to the Oprah Podcast. Hello to this beautiful audience of our listeners in New York City.

• 1:07Oprah Winfrey?

  I just love saying, "New York, New York." It's great to be here, even on a rainy day. So I want to ask the audience just a few questions.

• 1:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Am I seeing clearly? Ask yourself that. Am I seeing clearly or through a lens of pain? Am I trying to control, fix, or rescue anybody other than myself? Am I present enough to sit with what is? All of these questions are in Iyanla Van Zant's new book that she asks us to ask of ourselves. So what's missing? What my guest calls divine freedom is what's missing from so many of our lives. She says, "We each have a sacred responsibility, and it's our job to find out what is that responsibility."

• 1:58Oprah Winfrey?

  She is one of the most powerful spiritual teachers, healers, fixers in the world. Iyanla Van Zant has written a book called Spiritual Hygiene, "A Practical Path for Clean Living, for Inner Authority, and for Divine Freedom." What even is divine freedom? Whatever it is, I want some of that. Please help me welcome Iyanla Van Zant.

• 2:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Look at her.

• 2:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Been a while.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  A long time.

• 2:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Been a while. It's been six years since we sat together.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Since we've seen, we talk and text.

• 2:42Oprah Winfrey?

  And all that.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  God bless a text.

• 2:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, God bless a text.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  But my Lord, I haven't seen you.

• 2:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, but you're looking good.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  And are you not? Takes one to know one.

• 2:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Iyanla Van Dan is a world-renowned spiritual teacher, bestselling author, and a fixer who suffers no fools.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  You may have lost your femininity, but you found your bitch in that moment, right?

• 3:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. I first met Iyanla on "The Oprah Winfrey Show."

• 3:10Speaker 02

  If you don't have a test, you won't have a testimony. And so when you have a challenge...

• 3:17Speaker 02

  You are an adult.

• 3:18Oprah Winfrey?

  She hosted eight seasons of the hit show "Iyanla Fix My Life" on OWN, the network.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Go get you a Bob, a battery-operated boyfriend.

• 3:32Oprah Winfrey?

  And this January 17th, make sure to check out Iyanla's return to OWN.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  I've come to unpack.

• 3:37Oprah Winfrey?

  With her powerful new series, "Iyanla: The Inside Fix." I want to share how you began spiritual hygiene, because it's such a helpful analogy, I think. You say, you brush your teeth and you wash your body every single day. We do, right? You can see all these people are all brushed up in here. To prevent diseases and stay clean. But what do you do every day to heal your soul?

• 4:08Oprah Winfrey?

  I love the term "spiritual hygiene."

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:10Oprah Winfrey?

  How did it come to you?

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Well, really, it's something that I had done. Just checking in with my mind, my heart, my body, every single day. And to stay clean.

• 4:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  And I knew when I was dirty. When I was feeling dirty, thinking dirty, behaving in dirty ways. We won't have that conversation.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  But I don't know, maybe 10, 15 years ago, I said, "Okay, let me do my hygiene. I gotta be on top of my hygiene."

• 4:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Born into poverty, Iyanla Benzat, whose birth name was Rhonda, says her mother was an alcoholic and died when she was three years old. Iyanla was raised by her grandmother, who Iyanla says neglected and physically abused her. At age nine, Iyanla was raped by an uncle. She became a mother at 16, and by the age of 21, Iyanla was raising three children. In 2003, Iyanla Benzat lost her eldest daughter, Jamia. She died from a rare type of colon cancer at the age of 31. And in 2023, Iyanla's daughter, Nisa, passed away. She was 48 years old. Iyanla also has a son, Damon.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Jamia had good spiritual hygiene. Nisa, on the other hand, did not. And I began to say, "You've got to clean that up. You've got to clean that up." And so, it kind of stuck.

• 5:40Oprah Winfrey?

  One of the things you say in the book, I mean, really, when I read the sentence, where you say, "I can't bury another child."

• 5:47Speaker 02

  I cannot do it.

• 5:48Oprah Winfrey?

  But Iyanla has lost another child. She lost her daughter, Nisa, two years ago.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:55Oprah Winfrey?

  And it's the interesting thing you say in the book, that you weren't prepared for the first loss with Jamia. And then, when Nisa became ill and you realized that she was going, tell us about that.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Because I had good spiritual hygiene, one thing spiritual hygiene does is it gets you clear.

• 6:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  You don't see through distortion or illusion. And the key ingredient of spiritual hygiene is truth. You tell the truth. So just based on what I was seeing and sensing and feeling, I said, "Oh, my God. She's not going to make it through this." I knew it.

• 6:30Oprah Winfrey?

  What was she going through?

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Diabetes. But she was a noncompliant diabetic. She was in total denial. So she wouldn't accept the fact. And I taught her that, Oprah. I talk about that in the book.

• 6:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  I taught her that anything less than perfection and performance cannot be tolerated. And so she wouldn't acknowledge. She wouldn't care for. She wouldn't do what was required to manage and to embrace the diabetes. So she, she was noncompliant. And so many people are.

• 7:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Right, I know. I had a mother who shot insulin every day. Every now and then you'd see her sitting in the kitchen eating coconut cake.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:14Oprah Winfrey?

  And you're like, and she, you know, in, in our culture, a lot of people just think it's a little sugar. Oh, I got a little sugar.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Little sugar.

• 7:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Little sugar, gotta handle my sugar. Yes.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  I want to tell you this, not to freak you out or gross you out. Um, it took me a minute to process. Nisa died at home, um, on the sofa, by herself, with a half gallon of fruit punch in her hand and a container of honey roasted peanuts right by her side.

• 7:48Oprah Winfrey?

  As a diabetic?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  As a diabetic.

• 7:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow. That must have been really challenging, hard for you as the fixer. You've done hundreds of shows. You've helped thousands of people. And in your own family, your daughter, your baby girl, you weren't able to get her to see clear enough to do it for herself.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  On social media, people were saying, oh, she lost another kid. She trying to fix everybody. You know, that thing is so mean.

• 8:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  And, and, oh yeah, I told you she was a fraud. I told you she was a fake. And I saw that just accidentally. And I said, oh, I see. They think they're gonna stop me. But you know, one of the things that I talk about in spiritual hygiene is our greatest challenges come not from the outside, from the inside.

• 8:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Inside you, inside your family, inside your marriage, inside your circle of closest people. Those are the things that you have to address. Like, I didn't go to Nisa's funeral. I didn't go to my daughter's funeral. I didn't go because her son was emotionally unsafe for me. He was just out of his mind in his grief and in his whatever. So I did not go to my daughter's funeral and ask me if I care what people think about it. Because had he lost his mind and jumped on me, I would have been beat up and they just would have been shocked.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  So you've got to be clean on the inside so that you can address those things when they come from the outside.

• 9:20Oprah Winfrey?

  And you were ready to address it?

• 9:22Speaker 02

  I was really ready to. Like I said, the spiritual teacher in me knew she was gonna die. I knew it. I could see it. The mother was hysterical, okay? And she's running around with her hair on fire, trying to do every here, rub this crystal on your head, lick this stone, what can I do? Praying all day.

• 9:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  But the spiritual teacher knew, this is her choice. This is her lesson. Mind your business. And just be present for her. That's all you can do. Because I would much rather have been present for her than have her push me away. Because I'm telling her, read this book, take this thing, do this. I did that for a while, and it just didn't work.

• 10:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And so, to bury yet another child. Did that nearly break you? Or were you more prepared?

• 10:12Speaker 02

  I knew how to do it this time. I know that sounds crazy. When Jamia left her body, and I had to bury my first child, my best friend. She was my best friend.

• 10:27Oprah Winfrey?

  But that was many years ago.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Many years ago. Doesn't seem like it as a mom. It seems like last Tuesday. But it's been 21 years now. So spiritually, she was complete. She did what she came to do. So when she passed, so much, I didn't know. When Nisa passed, I remembered, I know how to do this. You don't have to do everything by yourself, I'mma call somebody. You don't have to figure everything out. Get some help. I knew how to do it. And so very often, one of the reasons we have spiritual hygiene, poor spiritual hygiene, is because we meet every challenge as though it's new. You've been left before.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  You've been disappointed before. What did you learn that time that you can use now? We meet every challenge with our hair on fire. What is that? Listen, this is your third breakup. Act like you done broke up before.

• 11:28Oprah Winfrey?

  What has the grief and loss of two daughters taught you?

• 11:33Speaker 02

  How much I can love. Grief is such a powerful teacher. Grief is such a powerful healer. Grief is such a powerful lesson. It teaches us how the heart can contract and expand at the same time. Contract because of the hurt and the ache, but expand because you have to learn how to love the unseen. I still love my babies. Those are still my babies. I love them deeply. And now grief takes you out of the attachment to physical. I'm not attached to their physical anymore. Now I'm loving them heart to heart, soul to soul. Grief taught me how to do that. Because I couldn't grieve forever. I had to come out of it.

• 12:18Oprah Winfrey?

  What impact did this have on Damon, your son?

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Well, you know what is funny about Damon? Damon, I had Damon when I was 16. We grew up together. So almost everything I learned as I learned it, I was teaching it to him. We grew up attached at the hip. And I've always told Damon the truth. And when Damon had his challenges in life, I'll never forget the day he called me and he went off. I mean, I was just a wretched other earth child. Please, he was, you did this and you didn't do that and you did this. And everything he said was true. But as a mom, I had to hear it with spiritual ears. And when he finished lambasting me, I said, "Tell me how I can do it different now."

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Wow. I didn't defend, I didn't explain. I had had a little spiritual hygiene by then. I said, "Tell me how I can do it different now." Because I couldn't go back and clean up what I did as a frightened, guilty, crazy 16, 17-year-old. And you know what he said? He said, "Stop being my mother and just be my friend." And that's what I did. Now, now he's older, I'm older. Now I can be his mother again, because I got good sense.

• 13:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  But back then, I was healing myself. You know, all of my infectious diseases of my mind and heart, I visited upon my children. I have to tell the truth about that. And Nisa struggled the most, because she was my greatest mirror.

• 13:53Oprah Winfrey?

  And this is really why you've written the book, is because you want to stop other people in their tracks of doing that and passing it on to their children.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  There's a chapter in there, Spiritual Hygiene for Parenting.

• 14:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Because I...

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Her lesson was different, and her choices were different. Uh, but I can see the contributions that I made to her dysfunction and destruction. Her choice was to hold on to it.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Because she had choices. She could have healed it, she didn't. That was her choice.

• 14:28Oprah Winfrey?

  And you were able to let that go.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  I had to.

• 14:31Oprah Winfrey?

  You write in the book so candidly, I mean, wow. You open up your soul, and you say, "I failed my children."

• 14:38Speaker 02

  I failed my children. I think I've said that publicly many times, that I was a horrible mother. Horrible, I was a great father. I was a horrible mother. Mothers nourish, nurture, teach. Mothers affirm. I didn't do that. I protected, I provided. That's what dads do. I was a horrible mother. When I recognize I failed my children from the perspective of spiritual hygiene, was because I denied my pain, I ignored my pain, I covered it, I called it something else. I put myself in unclean, unhealthy, unproductive situations, dragging my kids along with me, and expected them to stay quiet about it. I lived for nine years in an abusive marriage,

• 15:24Speaker 02

  and never talked to my children about it. Expected them to see their mother with a black eye, a busted lip, cooking franks and beans. So I taught them to lie, I taught them to deny, I taught them to avoid, I mirrored it for that. And then, that's what they did. That's a failure on my part as a mother.

• 15:42Oprah Winfrey?

  As I was reading your book, I thought, so many families could be healed if parents would just... Admit the truth to their children because they can't say, "I made a mistake. I was wrong."

• 15:55Speaker 02

  We're taught that it's bad to be wrong, that you're bad if you're wrong.

• 16:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  And just in general, you're bad if you're wrong. I mean, if you make a mistake on your taxes, the IRS penalizes you.

• 16:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  You know, if you make a mistake in doing anything.

• 16:11Oprah Winfrey?

  I think that's such an interesting distinction, don't you all? Yes. The difference between being wrong and being bad.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:17Oprah Winfrey?

  That you can be wrong.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  And it's a mistake.

• 16:20Oprah Winfrey?

  It's a mistake.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. But we live in a law and punishment society where you're afraid. This society is set up where you're wrong if you tell the truth. Really? If you tell the truth, you're wrong. And if you're wrong, you're bad.

• 16:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Hmm.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  So people don't want to tell the truth. I had to tell the truth because looking at my children and all I thought I had done for them, and looking at what I was looking at, you know, what the hell happened? You know? You, boo, you happened. Don't look at the fruit, look at the tree.

• 16:57Oprah Winfrey?

  But all of those failures, this is what I love about what you write in Spiritual Hygiene, all of those failures have brought you to a more clear understanding of who you are now. And you have used those failures. You've used that pain to create power and spiritual awakening in your own life.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  And hopefully in the world.

• 17:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Because one of the things that I think is killing this country, the world in general, is dishonesty. And people will look at somebody telling them a lie and grin. Yeah, yeah, uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh. What the hell?

• 17:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  That's a lie. Now, you don't have to say it like that. That's not spiritually.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  You know, you have to find a better way to say that. But the truth is just so contaminated today. And that's poor spiritual hygiene. We don't tell ourselves, "That dress is too short. Go somewhere and sit down and take that thing off." We won't even say that to ourselves.

• 17:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  And then we lie to each other. This whole thing, catfish. The catfish thing. Where the people, you be having a rela-- and the people.

• 18:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Are not really real.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Bad spiritual hygiene, bad.

• 18:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, bad.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  And so people won't tell the truth. And truth is a key element of clean living and divine freedom.

• 18:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow, divine freedom. What is it? When I was describing that and I was asking the audience to think about the questions that you ask in the book, what does divine freedom?

• 18:24Speaker 02

  The freedom God gave us. The freedom to be who we are. We are programmed and conditioned to perform. There's probably people sitting in this room right now, I ain't talking about, I'm not gonna look at anybody in particular.

• 18:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Who got all kind of wahala and conglomeration going on in their life, but they'll go out in the street.

• 18:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  And somebody will say, "How you doing?" "Fine, I'm good." No, you're not. Now, you don't have to spill your guts out to everybody you see, but just, we've lost that level of connection and trust, where you can say to somebody, "I need help." And you don't say that long enough. That's why suicide rates are up. That's why things like diabetes is up. Lack of joy. We, we, we, we're taught to perform. God gave us everything that we need to be a unique and a divine expression of God. And we walk around selling and camouflaging what we think are false.

• 19:24Oprah Winfrey?

  And you write that practicing spiritual hygiene has brought you to another level, actually, of consciousness, where everything is energy.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Everything.

• 19:34Oprah Winfrey?

  And understanding that. Can you explain what that means?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Everything is energy, because energy, frequency, vibration. Energy is the essence of life. It's the movement of life, it's the flow of life, that manifests both physically and visibly, but intangibly and invisibly. So we perform at the physical level. Make yourself look nice, do this, do, do, do, do, do. But it's at the invisible level, the being level, where everything is born. Somebody gets pregnant, they don't get pregnant on the outside. They get pregnant on the inside. And that energy is in there, that life force is in there, and the egg and the sperm, and they're doing all their little wonderfulness to make the human being. That's all invisible. Energy, it's there.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  We are so addicted to the physicality, the third dimension, if I can see it. So what happens is, we get to doing. We do, do, do, do, do, and forget about our being. Our being is what sets us free.

• 20:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for listening. Time for a quick break. Next, a woman who wants to ask Ayala how to heal from an absent father.

• 20:43Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The Four Seasons is back for season two, starring Tina Fey, Will Forte, Coleman Domingo, Marco Calvani, Carrie Kenny Silver, and Erica Henningson. After a difficult year, your favorite group of friends continues their tradition of vacationing together, now with a baby in tow. From the Jersey Shore to upstate New York and Italy, their getaways are sure to take unexpected turns where comedy ensues. Watch The Four Seasons, now streaming only on Netflix.

• 21:12Oprah Winfrey?

  I thank you for listening and welcome back. Our audience has questions for Iyanla about how a spiritual cleanse can lift the heaviness and pain they've been carrying. Well, this is what's so interesting, how you've been able to use everything that's happened in your life to become, as I was introducing you, one of the great spiritual teacher healers in the world. And I know so many people are here because they want to talk to you. And Camry, Camry.

• 21:40Speaker 05

  Hi.

• 21:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Question, right?

• 21:42Speaker 05

  Yes. So I built a life becoming an author, a speaker, an advocate for people who are often hidden in plain sight. And I thought healing others would be a way of healing myself. So I've watched you guys for a long time talk about daddy-less daughters. And I grew up without my father. And a part of me thought I was healing that part by, you know, healing other people, until I realized that, once I got older, he started having one child, and two child, and three child, and four child. That he was being a father to.

• 22:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Your father.

• 22:18Speaker 05

  Yes. And he had never been present for me. So that brought a new level of grief that I thought that I had healed, like that little girl who was without her daddy. I thought that part was healed until I saw, you're present for all these other little babies you got running around. So how do you?

• 22:35Speaker 02

  How do I?

• 22:36Speaker 05

  How, I'm sorry, how do I? I know you spoke about the grief that you have when you lose someone physically. But when he's 10 minutes up the street, how do I begin to grieve the loss of someone that is here physically?

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Well, is it a loss or is it a disappointment? You gotta get clear about what it is that you're trying to heal. You haven't lost him, he's there, but you're disappointed in the way he shows up, which means you have an expectation that daddy would do this, that, or the other. Would that be accurate?

• 23:11Speaker 05

  Yes, because he was never present. So, yeah, it's a disappointment that you were never there. Absolutely.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  How do you know that's not a good thing?

• 23:24Speaker 05

  I'm a parent, and I know that I can't go a day without my babies.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  But that's your experience.

• 23:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  How do you know that for your soul, your purpose, your mission in life, perhaps who he was would not have been healthy for you? See, I believe everything is just as it needs to be. God doesn't kick us out and then abandon us. So there's a reason, a purpose, that your daddy would be around the corner and you see him every day. And maybe that purpose wouldn't have been served with him being in your life. My mother was an alcoholic, who died when I was three. And so, the good news is, I didn't know. They forgot to tell me she was dead. So they told me this woman was my mother. She wasn't... that's a whole nother story. But I often wonder, did I benefit not growing up as a child of an alcoholic?

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Can you hear me?

• 24:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  I don't know what that would have looked like.

• 24:22Speaker 05

  So how can I tell myself that when, of course, we've all heard these stories, and I heard you guys talk about it many of times, when those daddy-less daughters grow up and then they seek for love and validation in all the wrong places? And I guess that's why it was so hard for me to tell myself that, because I did go through that process of seeking for love and validation and expectation from the love that I did not get from my father.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Do you know this man right here?

• 24:47Speaker 05

  Is it obvious?

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Huh?

• 24:48Speaker 05

  No, I said, is it obvious?

• 24:49Speaker 02

  He's getting me to eat you with his eyes. I'm a little...

• 24:53Speaker 02

  I was a little nervous for a moment.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  That much love, you ain't missing nothing. But anyway.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  I would say, let the little girl grieve.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Because, you know, daddies make us princesses. Not you grown woman. That little one. Let her grieve. Ask her, the three-year-old, the five-year-old, the seven-year-old. What did you want from daddy? And then you give it to her.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah? Let her grieve, let her weep, let her cry. Let her feel it. Let her heart break. Because that's what's gonna teach you how to love him from a distance. And forgive him. And forgive yourself for thinking you shouldn't miss your daddy. You've been so busy trying to be strong. Until you're ignoring her pain. It's her pain. It's not really yours. Because you big girl, all grown up, and you got this hunk of burning love over here. A hunk of burning love. Thank you.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  But let her grieve. And also let her know that she can still love her daddy. Even though he chooses not to be in relationship with her.

• 26:14Oprah Winfrey?

  How's she gonna do that?

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Just love, how? Just let her feel the love. Not comparison, not jealousy. But let her heart open in love and not focus on the ache.

• 26:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Can I share something? Can I share something? So, I have all of these wonderful daughter girls, I call them, who had come to the United States from South Africa. And most of them had grown up without their fathers. Almost every single person had some form of trauma. Because my school is for underserved, poor girls who come from traumatic backgrounds. And in the beginning, it was such a mess going on all the time that I called Iyanla, y'all. When we had 20 girls crying and screaming and yelling, crying about their daddies. And I remember there was one girl, because I never had my daddy to walk me to school.

• 27:11Oprah Winfrey?

  And you were like, but you're 19, you can walk your own self to school now. Now, you can walk your own self to school now. And these girls are now coming here for college. And what you shared with those girls was that... You need to let, as you were just saying to Camry, let your young self mourn the father or grieve the father. But your older self is already grown and taking care of yourself.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:36Oprah Winfrey?

  So you need to make the distinction between the two.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:40Oprah Winfrey?

  That it needs to be acknowledged, but what you're looking at and seeing him doing with his other kids all over the place, you don't actually need that now. You have been able to take care of yourself, take care of yourself.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So, but the good spiritual hygiene is acknowledging this hurts, and I have the right to grieve it, and I have the right to live beyond it. Spiritual hygiene as a daily devotion to taking care of your mind, your heart, and your spirit will clean up any residue for you. And it'll bring that little one who's grieving into alignment so that she's not running your life.

• 28:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah. How do you fix the daddy hole? I mean, it's not one answer. I mean, there's so many people who have a daddy hole.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  They do, but again, it's not the grown person. It's not you today that's grieving.

• 28:36Oprah Winfrey?

  You don't.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  It's the five-year-old, it's the seven-year-old. Even when she uses your eyes, she's not counting how, you're not counting how many children daddy has. You, as an adult, you may say, "Boy, you need to stop it." But she's like, "He doing it for them, but he didn't do it for me."

• 28:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  "I want my daddy too." That's her, that's not you.

• 28:56Oprah Winfrey?

  That's your younger self.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, but what you want, I know, baby, I know. But what is it that you wanted daddy to take you to the park? Let's go to the park. I don't care if it's 18 inches of snow on the ground. Take your butt out to the park and let her, you know?

• 29:11Oprah Winfrey?

  You can fill that hole by giving yourself what it is that you thought you should have gotten from the other person, and then forgive them for not giving it to you. And also giving it to her children now.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:23Oprah Winfrey?

  She said their children, her children are the same age as her father's children.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Wow. Well, I want to just, from a spiritually hygienic perspective, I want to be careful with that because that was my goal, to give my children what I didn't have.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  And in doing so, I forgot about the kids. I got into the giving now. You understand what I'm saying?

• 29:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  I got into the giving.

• 29:51Oprah Winfrey?

  They thought they should have the things, they should have the things.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  I didn't have a stable home. I, they had to have a stable home. I didn't have, I didn't, I had food scarcity. Even now, at my age, with everything that I, I have two refrigerators full to the brim. Right now, you can come to my house, you want anything? Why? Because I live with food scarcity. I didn't know always where my next meal was coming from. And so, today, I can afford two refrigerators that's full, to, to the brim. Full, right now. Because that keeps my little girl safe. Keeps her safe. And it don't, and I love to shop. I don't go on, I don't care, oh, they got wings on sale, let me go. That makes me happy.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  So it makes me happy to make her happy. So just be careful trying to give them what you didn't have or what you wanted. Make sure that's what they need. That's not what my children needed.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  That's not what Nisa needed. Nisa needed hugs and kisses. Her love language was, were words of affirmation. Jamir's love language was quality time, which she got because I took my kids everywhere with me. Her, Damon, Nisa, I was dragging them along like little ducklings. But that's not what she needed. So in my quest to work two jobs and to keep the home and to have the food and to buy the clothes, I missed giving her what she needed, which were words of affirmation.

• 31:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Did this help you?

• 31:23Speaker 05

  Absolutely, absolutely, yes, thank you.

• 31:25Oprah Winfrey?

  You've been watching us a long time, so, yeah.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  I think the, the show is about the daddyless daughter. I think that came out before I was born and I just caught it up on YouTube. So, yeah, that was a long time ago.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:38Oprah Winfrey?

  What are some basic spiritual, I don't know, practices that we need to create our own daily spiritual hygiene?

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Number one, breathe. There's 50 people sitting right in here that ain't breathing. Air's going in and out their nose, but I'm talking, fill the lungs.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Let your whole body participate in your breath. Because we walk around and schedule and tight and performing. And as soon as something happens.

• 32:12Oprah Winfrey?

  We tighten up.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Tighten up.

• 32:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  On the during, um, devices. People aren't breathing. I'm like, breathe.

• 32:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Number one.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Number one, breathe. Stillness. Be still and know. What's next, what to do, what not to do. Be still and know how you feel. How are you feeling? Not fine. That means effed up, insecure, neurotic and excited about it. That's what fine means. That's an acronym. You know, people will just, it's habitual, fine. No, you're not.

• 32:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Everybody is going through something. This is what we know.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  And in this contempt, our world is contaminated right now.

• 32:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Spiritually, physically, emotionally contaminated. People are scared to death.

• 33:06Oprah Winfrey?

  And so spiritual hygiene is about coming to terms with what is the truth of you. Acknowledging that.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Moment by moment by moment by moment.

• 33:16Oprah Winfrey?

  We have to take a quick break, but first, as you're listening, does someone in your life come to mind who may want to learn from Ayanna about spiritual hygiene? If so, go ahead and send them the link to this episode. We'll be right back.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  We're back with the fixer, spiritual teacher, and bestselling author, Iyama Van Zant. Iyama says, "As adults, we often have to unlearn some of the lies we were told in our childhood." Let's get back to the conversation. Matthew.

• 34:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, this is so good because I, in the beginning of my life, my mother and father were not the best human beings. They made decisions that they shouldn't have made, and I got the bad end of the stick as the boy, whereas my sister did not. So I had to be placed in the state until my aunt and uncle had to come and raise me, until my mom got clean, and then I got with her. So with all of that, it's almost like no one told me nothing.

• 34:46Speaker 06

  They just said...

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Good.

• 34:47Speaker 06

  They just said...

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Good.

• 34:50Speaker 06

  They just said, "Your daddy is on vacation," or whatever. And my son and my mom were there now and then, but they didn't tell me why she had vegetation, right? Why did she have to come in and come out?

• 35:01Speaker 02

  So it's not that they didn't tell you anything, they didn't tell you the truth.

• 35:04Speaker 06

  They did not tell me the truth.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  And the reason I said "good" that they didn't tell you anything is because that meant you had a lot less to unlearn. See, a lot of us were told stuff that we then had to unlearn. Nobody told me anything either, so I didn't have a lot to unlearn. I had a lot to learn, but unlearning, woo, that's rough.

• 35:24Speaker 06

  Sure, so we grew up in a family where we kind of just dealt with things. We didn't really express. And I guess my question is, how... Because I'm a fielder. She calls me sensitive sometimes. But how do you learn to... How do I learn to express in a family that does not... They just deal, they don't feel. They just sweep right out of the rug.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  They do feel. What they do is they numb or dissociate. You can't... Everybody's made the same way. God gave us all a brain, a heart, a nervous system. It's not that they don't feel. It's that the dishonesty, the emotional dishonesty, so they numb or dissociate and move on in performance. But let me say this to you. Thank you for sharing that. I want to support you in kind of re- recreating the beginning. I heard you say, "My parents made decisions that they should not have made, and I got the bet and..." That is true, yeah. That makes them wrong.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  And in spiritual hygiene, we don't want to make people wrong. We want to see their humanity and tell the truth about it. They made the best decisions they could make, based on who they were and the information they had at the time. And those decisions had a negative impact on you. That's the truth. Your mother and father never got up one morning and said, "Let me destroy my kids by going out here and get some drugs." That would have been a bad decision. So I just encourage you and invite you to re-language that story, not to make yourself a victim. Yes, ma'am. It had a negative impact on you. That's the truth.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  And then, everyone partic- the family participated in it by not being, telling the truth about it. Imagine, nobody told you your mother was on drugs or incarcerated. Nobody told me my mother was dead. Duh. So I grew up thinking one person was my mother, who wasn't, until I was 30. Okay?

• 37:41Oprah Winfrey?

  That's a lot to unlearn.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  A lot.

• 37:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Not only is that a lot to unlearn, and then you have to go through the process of, is everything a lie?

• 37:49Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 37:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Is everything a lie?

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Everything.

• 37:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Everything is a lie.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  And so for me, I can smell a lie.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  You know, so truth for me, you know, that is like, that is my minimum daily requirement. I can't deal with a lie. So what I would say, first of all, start re-language in your story. And again, let me go to the base. Everything happens the way it needs to happen.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  It may not be the way we like it. So the thing becomes, what did I learn? What did you gain? What did you grow? See, for me, I became a guardian of the truth. That's my spiritual high. Don't lie to me, and I won't lie to you. I became a guardian of the truth because of the very devastating experience. What did you learn that you can then use? I learned how to bury my second daughter by the mistakes I made burying the first one. I know that sounds bizarre, but this is like spiritual hygiene. You know, this is what we do. Like, you have to take chemo, which could have devastating effects to cure cancer. But you want to be healthy, so you you deal with the effects.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  There's something, lesson, a mission, a purpose in what you went through. And don't compare yourself to your sister. You got what you needed, she got what she needed. Her soul had a docket. Your soul has a docket. Spiritual hygiene.

• 39:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Docket meaning your own. You your sis, just because you all come from the same family, this is for everybody. Everybody has their own soul contract. You come to the planet for a different reason than she came to the planet, even though you came from the same people. And your job, your role, is what she's telling us in spiritual hygiene, is to figure that out and to work at every day, enhancing what is the real reason why you are here. And I think I I think this is just really incredible advice for everybody to reorder the way you tell the story so that you are not the victim in the story. You're not the victim in the story. Because so many people have made themselves the victim of what they didn't get.

• 40:03Oprah Winfrey?

  And then missed the power of what they did get. You know, we signed up for this. We did. And and again, that's another beaut, the beauty of grief. While grief takes you into the pain, it also expands you.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  Because, once you learn the meaning-

• 40:22Oprah Winfrey?

  I know, you just said that, and that went over a lot of people's heads. When you say you signed up for this, I know I can hear a lot of people saying, "But I didn't sign up for it." Because what you think you signed up for is the life you see everybody else living.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Uh-huh.

• 40:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Bad spiritual hygiene to compare your life to anybody else's life.

• 40:38Oprah Winfrey?

  If you're living it, if you're experiencing it, you signed up for it. You signed up for it. The soul contract, signed up for it.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  You know, like, when you do certain things online, and they say, "Read and accept," you don't read that, do you?

• 40:54Speaker 02

  You go down there, click that button, so you can get to the next page, right? You don't read it.

• 41:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  And then, when they come back later on, and they're asking you to say, "Well, what is it?" "You signed, you accepted it, right?"

• 41:07Oprah Winfrey?

  You accepted it, yes. But does that make sense to you all? Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I know. From the spiritual realm, we all signed up for what we- You know, it's why Maya, Maya used to say to me all, actually, not only say, she wrote a book called, "Wouldn't Take Nothing For My Journey Now." "I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now."

• 41:25Speaker 02

  But here's the piece that we forget, Ms. Oprah. You're equipped to handle it. That's the piece. We think that we're not equipped to handle being left, or being diseased, or being this or that, or- You are equipped to handle it. You really are. Every car is built with the tank of gas that'll get it where it needs to go. So are you. I, you know, I would have never said, "Well, yeah, I let my mother die, and then my uncle raped me, let me get pregnant as a teenager." That sounds like an exciting thing to do. I would have never picked that thing, but when I look back now, and my evolution from the little girl Ronnie,

• 42:08Speaker 02

  into Rhonda the woman, into Yomla the writer, into- I say, "Wow, yeah, I did have what I needed, because I made it through."

• 42:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. I always use this metaphor, because I hike a lot now, and when you're looking up at the mountain, and it looks like you have so far to go- It feels like every step is a burden. So I always now, I turn around and I look back at how far I've come. And when you look back at how far you've come, it gives you so much more energy and power to keep going. Look at how far you've come.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also that's why God built roads that curve. So you can only see from here to there, then you gotta go around the curve. And then you see from there to the next one, then you gotta go around another curve. Because you have to sit here and look there. I can't do that. I can't do it. I can't do it.

• 43:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, but if you can hit the curve.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  And keep on going.

• 43:08Oprah Winfrey?

  And that's why the switchbacks are good.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Isn't life like that?

• 43:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Life is like that.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  You hit the curve and you gotta maneuver, but you get around. And then when you get around, phew, got that one. And then before you, ooh, there's another one. And sometimes you go a long stretch before you hit a curve or a ditch or whatever. But we are quit. We have so little faith in ourselves.

• 43:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, but I love this idea of sitting in the space and in the peace of how far you have come. And all of us has our own story. We all have our own story about how far that is. After a quick break, a woman with a mentally ill mother wants to free herself from the guilt of feeling responsible for her mother's choices.

• 43:52Speaker 07

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• 44:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome back. If you know someone who might need some help with a spiritual cleansing, send them this link to this conversation. Let's get back to my talk now with Yama Van Zant. Where's Jenna? Jenna, what's your question for Yama?

• 44:34Speaker 08

  Hi, grateful to be part of the conversation. I've always had a very complicated relationship with my mother. I was parentified and made to feel emotionally responsible for her as a child and growing up, later financially. And she was numbing her own pain and her own trauma with shopping and spending and deadening and denial and then mental illness. And for the last 12 years, she's been homeless. And I tried everything to prevent that. I spent money.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Wait a minute. Bad spiritual hygiene to have that feeling and ignore it. Let it come up. Honor yourself. It won't kill you. Look how far you've come. Breathe, breathe in it. Yeah. No, don't shake your head no, yes. See how brilliant the body is. The body is cleansing itself. Tears cleanse. It's bad spiritual hygiene to feel an emotion and then to keep everybody comfortable, you keep on going like the thing wasn't even there. Breathe, let.

• 45:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Go ahead. We'll just be, we'll just wait for you.

• 45:52Speaker 08

  I don't really cry about it anymore. Okay.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  But you're releasing. Breathe. Please, please don't do that to yourself.

• 45:59Speaker 08

  That was not my plan.

• 46:01Oprah Winfrey?

  I know that wasn't your plan, Jenna, but here's the thing. The fact that you're still crying about it means it's still there and it needs to come up to be cried about.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  And that's bad spiritual hygiene. Not right there. That's a fibroid. That's raising your blood sugar.

• 46:14Speaker 08

  Who wants to cry on Oprah?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Oh, everybody.

• 46:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Everybody's over it. Right, that's what everybody does. Everybody.

• 46:24Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Breathe.

• 46:26Speaker 08

  So to give some.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Wait a minute. Breathe. Check in. Better?

• 46:34Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 46:36Speaker 08

  So I tried to fix and prevent her consequences and her current reality. I gave over $50,000 and my own finances, career, sanity were destroyed. Like, I put them at risk. However, I knew that was not like what was in store for my highest self. So.

• 47:06Speaker 08

  Before I hit my own bottom, I got help in Al-Anon, which for some people don't know, it's friends and family of those with addiction. My mom was numbing her pain like an addict. And no matter what I did, I couldn't prevent where she was going. And I finally saw that by getting help and learning to have boundaries. And really, it came down to her, me. It really was her or me. I chose me.

• 47:38Speaker 08

  I got help, and I had to let her go.

• 47:44Speaker 08

  Now, I have a husband and two children now, and I choose them. And I choose them over her. And so I don't engage with her because I can't show up as the best version of me for my children or my husband, and I deserve to do that. Now, I refuse to pass this trauma to them. So I do the work. But if I share about this part to this other professional side of my life, it's just, it's too much for people.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  So what are you feeling? The main question is, you're feeling guilt?

• 48:17Speaker 08

  Guilt and shame. And it's not the shame of her life. It's the shame of how could you let her be homeless?

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Well, OK. You know, sometimes you gotta let your loved one hit rock bottom because God made the rock. God made the rock. So if she down in rock bottom, that's her business and God's business. That's number one. Number two, helping somebody out of obligation is not helping them at all. It's destroying you. And in your... Preach this morning.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Preach this morning. What? And in helping her out of obligation... Sacrificing yourself, that is not, not only poor spiritual hygiene, it's abuse, self-abuse to put yourself out. But in this contaminated world we live in, that's what we think we're supposed to do. But each of us is given the gift of a life, each of us. And each of us gets to choose. But always, beloved, vote for you first. And people who love you and care about you, like I hear that story and you say, you know, she's homeless. You had to let her go and vote for you. I'm like, yes, good spiritual hygiene, good spiritual hygiene, good spiritual,

• 49:40Speaker 02

  you know, but I'm weird.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  But what a courageous act.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  What a courageous act.

• 49:50Speaker 08

  Yeah, I can't be in conversation with her. I can't have communication anymore. And I tried up until about eight months ago. And finally, I was like, it's, it's taking pieces.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  If she ever comes to you and asks for anything and needs it, and you can give it to her, you can give it to her through the door. You don't have to take the chain off. Just reach it out, here, Ma. No guilt, no shame. And maybe you don't have to talk to everybody about it. Talk to your weird friends, people like me.

• 50:18Speaker 08

  I mean, the Al-Anon saved it for me.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Talk about how hard it is.

• 50:23Speaker 08

  I do every week.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  How hard it is to watch her make this choice for herself. That's what's hard, not her being homeless.

• 50:33Speaker 08

  No.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  The fact that she doesn't have to be. But this is the choice that she made.

• 50:37Oprah Winfrey?

  And even when you were saying, I spent $50,000 and I did this and I did everything to try to get her. You know, what I'm thinking is, well, that's you. She's not doing any of that. That's all on you.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  Did she ask you to do it?

• 50:50Speaker 08

  She expects it. She holds me responsible.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Here's the question, here's the question. Did she ask you to do it?

• 50:57Speaker 08

  Yeah. And demanded it.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Mm.

• 51:00Speaker 08

  How could I? She's still.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  You didn't have a sacred no or a holy yes. Very important in spiritual hygiene.

• 51:08Oprah Winfrey?

  A sacred no.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  Your no has to be sacred. Meaning it's protecting, it's governing, it's guiding. When you give your no, it has to be solid and firm from the inside out.

• 51:19Oprah Winfrey?

  A sacred no.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  A sacred no and a holy yes. Meaning your yes inspires, enlightens, evolves, help.

• 51:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, I love a sacred no, y'all.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  A sacred no is a boundary.

• 51:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Matthew, you taking that in.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  I know, I'm... Can you give an example of the yes?

• 51:37Oprah Winfrey?

  A sacred no?

• 51:38Speaker 02

  No. I got the no down pat. Give me, yeah, give me an example of the yes.

• 51:45Oprah Winfrey?

  A holy yes.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  A holy yes. Is when I make a commitment, a vow, a promise to do something because I want to.

• 51:53Oprah Winfrey?

  And it's coming from the center of myself.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 51:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And it's coming from the center of you.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  Not betraying myself.

• 51:59Oprah Winfrey?

  You're not betraying yourself.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  And you're not just performing. Mm. You're just showing up because you think you have to. Because you feel obligated. Or because you're afraid of what other people will say. You know, we get to an age where I forget what people say, so I really don't care. They say that if you want, I will remember next time, so go on say it.

• 52:20Oprah Winfrey?

  So it's about releasing yourself to the freedom of honoring yourself. You said, "I've honored myself." But you have not made yourself comfortable with the honor that you're giving yourself. Because somebody, I don't know who's in your head, or were you on social media? Whoever's telling you that you need to be doing something different.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  What part of you tells you you should be doing something different? Because again, everything is energy. The laws of the universe are flowing. This is the law of cause and effect.

• 52:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  The cause always comes on the inside, and then it'll show up on the outside. So she is voicing something you're holding. What part of you is saying, "I need to be doing more"?

• 53:03Oprah Winfrey?

  That's the truth right there.

• 53:04Speaker 08

  I mean, that's what I was taught from day one. I was filling a hole in her, she did.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  But look at her. Why you taking her lesson?

• 53:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Can you forgive yourself for not being able to do more?

• 53:22Speaker 02

  To savor?

• 53:23Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, I, like, this has been going on for a long time.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Yes and no.

• 53:26Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  Can you forgive yourself for not being able to do more based on her choice? That's number one. Can you forgive yourself for no longer being willing to participate in her self-destruction? Can you forgive yourself for that?

• 53:45Speaker 08

  I think so.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  Work with it. Hear what I said. Forgive yourself for no longer being willing to participate in her choice.

• 54:01Oprah Winfrey?

  That's huge, isn't it, y'all? And I know y'all got some stuff going on that this applies to, because I could see the nods. Forgive yourself for no longer...

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Being willing to participate in someone else's self-destructive choice. And why I say no, forgive yourself for no longer being willing? Because there's a part of you that thinks you should.

• 54:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Yep.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  Of course. The evolved part, the clean part, is no longer willing to participate in that. So you're forgiving, a part of you that's forgiving is the part that's saying to that other part, "No, no, I'm not willing to participate with you in that conflagration."

• 54:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and the forgiveness is accepting the fact that you now realize that everything that you've done, that's all that you can do. You have to accept that. Isn't that true?

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 54:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 54:49Speaker 08

  And that it didn't make a dang difference?

• 54:51Speaker 02

  It did make a difference. It taught you.

• 54:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Ah. Preach this morning!

• 55:01Speaker 02

  See?

• 55:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Preach this morning!

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Good spiritual hygiene brings everything back to you. This was your lesson, beloved.

• 55:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, that's it.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Not hers.

• 55:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, my God, the little hairs just stood up.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  You think this was about her. It was about you.

• 55:18Oprah Winfrey?

  You.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  You can't, somebody else can't learn their lessons in your life. Hear me? Only you...

• 55:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Somebody else can't learn their lessons in your life.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  And if you don't enjoy your life, your mother's misery will.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  So you got to enjoy your life.

• 55:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Church is over.

• 55:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Or to the church or now. To receive the offering. Spiritual hygiene.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Spiritual hygiene. Yeah, that was all about you. How far will you go before you say no? When will you set up a boundary? When will you hold a boundary?

• 56:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Did anybody else get some aha's off of that? Oh my God. My eyes are watering from the aha. Wow, wow, wow.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  If you think this is deep, wait till you get the book.

• 56:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh my God, Iyanla, that was so good.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  But isn't that true? Everybody, you think you're doing it for them. You're not.

• 56:22Oprah Winfrey?

  It's your lesson.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Your life, it's your lesson.

• 56:25Oprah Winfrey?

  It's your lesson.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  But see, we're programmed and conditioned to reach out. No, it's all about you. So get your no sacred.

• 56:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  Get your no holy, your yes holy. Create your boundaries. So your work now, again, is about forgiving yourself for believing, A, you did anything wrong, B, that you should have done more, and C, forgive yourself for feeling guilty about no longer being willing to participate in her choice.

• 56:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Thank you, Ms. Oh.

• 57:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Iyanla Van Zant.

• 57:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Did some preaching up in here today.

• 57:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Iyanla's new book, Spiritual Hygiene, A Practical Path for Clean Living for Inner Authority and Divine Freedom, is available wherever you buy your books. And thank you to my guests, to Camry and to Jenna and to Matthew and to you, audience, for being here in New York City today. Thank you so much. Thank you.

• 57:32Oprah Winfrey?

  You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.

• 57:49Speaker 09

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