Ep. 660: MeatEater Radio Live! Coues Deer, "Cowz" Deer, and Two Truths and a Lie

Hosts Randall Williams https://www.themeateater.com/people/randall-williams, Janis Putelis https://www.themeateater.com/people/janis-putelis, and Seth Morris https://www.themeateater.com/people/seth-morris recap their Coues deer trip to Mexico, catch-up with their guide, Phil Cramer, get some Coues insight from Jim Heffelfinger, and play Two Truths and a Lie. Read Jim's article here: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/d9926ed0-65f3-40c1-a06e-bc8e9c9da7f9/24-29%20Feature_Coues%20White-Tailed%20Deer_-e6ecd2e.pdf Join Steve Rinella and the rest of the crew as they go LIVE from MeatEater HQ every Thursday at 11am MT! They’ll have segments, call-in guests, and real-time interaction with the audience. Watch the live stream on the MeatEater Podcast Network YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Connect with The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Steven Rinella?

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• 0:42Speaker 02

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• 1:12Speaker 03

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment. A Lincoln Original Series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:47Speaker 04

  Smell us now, lady. Welcome to Meat Eater Trivia. Meat Eater Podcast.

• 2:09Speaker 05

  Welcome to Meat Eater Radio Live. It's 11 a.m. Mountain Time on Thursday, January 30th. That's not right. It is Thursday, February 6th. If it were Thursday, January 30th, I'd still be in Old Mexico.

• 2:25Speaker 06

  And you're not reading a script.

• 2:26Speaker 05

  No, no.

• 2:27Speaker 06

  This isn't scripted. Off the dome.

• 2:28Speaker 05

  It's good because Steve refused to read that portion in last week's episode, so just covering up his tracks. As I said, we are live, if you can't tell by that live error. I'm your host, Randall Williams, and I'm joined today by Seth Morris and Yanis Potellus. And we also have the pleasure of having Ryan Callahan join us for a little bit in today's episode. We've got a great show for you today. We're going to go all in on our recent Mexico Cowz deer trip. We've got a little show and tell planned with our bucks, or whatever Yanis brought to share. We're going to talk to Phil Cramer, a guide with more than 17 years of experience hunting Cowz deer in Mexico.

• 3:10Speaker 05

  We're going to chat with friend of the program and Meat Eater contributor Jim Heffelfinger, who literally wrote the book on deer of the Southwest. And we're going to play a delightful little game called Two Truths and a Lie. But before we get started, if anyone out there in the audience has questions for Jim or Phil, we have two experts that'll be joining us today. So you can get any of the questions you want answered about Cowz deer, Cowz deer hunting. Just add them into the chat and we'll try to get those guys to answer them. And yeah, looking forward to talking with those gentlemen, who we just saw, you know, less than a week ago.

• 3:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, we were eating Sonoran hot dogs with them.

• 3:48Speaker 05

  Oh, man. I think I had three.

• 3:51Speaker 06

  In the, in total, in our total time down there?

• 3:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:55Speaker 06

  I think I had three in one sitting.

• 3:57Speaker 05

  Well, we, we, I think we each started with two and then got a third.

• 4:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, I guess we only went to one dog place.

• 4:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:04Speaker 06

  We missed it on the way down.

• 4:05Speaker 05

  Cal insisted on tacos on the way down, which was not a mistake, but it also wasn't a hot dog.

• 4:10Speaker 07

  Oh, I got a, um, um, tripe burrito.

• 4:15Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:16Speaker 07

  Can't find those up here in Bozeman.

• 4:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, and that one guy got tattoos all over his face and neck.

• 4:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, exactly.

• 4:22Speaker 05

  It was an interesting crowd.

• 4:23Speaker 07

  Win-win.

• 4:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, Jim hooked us up, I feel like, with our new favorite, uh, Mexican joint in Tucson.

• 4:31Speaker 05

  Oh, that place was fantastic.

• 4:33Speaker 06

  Well, you never went to El Guero Canelo, but that was kind of our standby.

• 4:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:36Speaker 06

  And it's good, but we talked to a couple of police officers that came into our new favorite, uh, what was it called? La Carrieta?

• 4:44Speaker 05

  I don't remember.

• 4:44Speaker 06

  Yeah. However you say cart in Spanish is the name of this place. I think it's-

• 4:48Speaker 05

  Del Rojo or something?

• 4:49Speaker 06

  Aurora.

• 4:50Speaker 05

  Carreta Del Aurora.

• 4:51Speaker 06

  There you go.

• 4:52Speaker 05

  We'll get Jim on it.

• 4:53Speaker 06

  But, uh, yeah, I like their dogs better. And then we had that tasty little taco. It was like two small flour tortillas with a poblano chili, I believe, splayed out across both of them. Some carne asada and then melted cheese on top of that. Very simple, four ingredients. And then you'd have to cut the poblano in half and you'd get two little mini tacos. I think I liked that better than the dog.

• 5:20Speaker 07

  That's, that's, that's the best Sonoran dog I've had.

• 5:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was very tasty. Thank you to our friends at Carreta Del Aurora.

• 5:28Speaker 06

  Uh, oh.

• 5:31Speaker 05

  Oh?

• 5:33Speaker 05

  Uh, before, before we get started, uh, some exciting announcements to get to. Uh, you can preorder the Mountain Men audiobook, Media's American History, The Mountain Men, 1806 to 1840. Preorder now. It is released, uh, on Tuesday of this coming week, so Tuesday, February 11th. So if you preorder it now, uh, it will just download automatically and show up wherever you get your audiobooks, uh, the mo- the morning of its release. And, uh, yeah, it's like 11, 12 bucks. I think it's a great deal. You're gonna get your money's worth on content.

• 6:07Speaker 06

  How do you feel about the new, uh, new project?

• 6:11Speaker 05

  Uh, I'm happy with it. I think it's great. It's, uh, you know, there's like no shortage of wild mountain men stories and we tried to cover as many as we could.

• 6:21Speaker 07

  Would, would you mind just promoting the book as if you were an old mountain man in the same parlance and, and verbiage?

• 6:31Speaker 05

  Oh, man. I, you know, for all the research that I did, I didn't work on a character.

• 6:35Speaker 07

  You've read a gajillion journal entries, though. So you can kind of guess.

• 6:40Speaker 05

  Hey.

• 6:43Speaker 05

  Come on down and get the old mountain man audiobook. I'm hungry. I'm tired. Before the spring thaw. Before the spring thaw, it'll, it'll keep you occupied in your winter quarters before we go out and chase beaver again in the spring. Don't you know? That's just more Wisconsin. Uh, and we also, thank you.

• 7:05Speaker 07

  You are the expert, so I can't argue with that.

• 7:07Speaker 05

  Yeah. We're also going on a little mountain men tour. Steve and I are heading out on the road and we will be here in Bozeman at MSU on February 11th. We'll be at, uh, the University of Montana in Missoula on February 20th. And we will be at the University of Wyoming in Laramie on the 26th of February. That is the only, uh, evening where there are still seats left. Uh, the other two are sold out. So if you got your seats reserved, we look forward to, uh, seeing you and talking mountain men and talking history. And if you're in the greater Laramie area where you feel like making a little road trip, uh, you can still go on the.

• 7:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's not far from Denver.

• 7:47Speaker 05

  Oh, no. No, we're actually flying into Denver.

• 7:50Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 7:51Speaker 05

  Avoid that, uh, long drive down. So.

• 7:53Speaker 07

  My little sister pick you up.

• 7:55Speaker 05

  That'd be lovely.

• 7:56Speaker 07

  Plastic seats in the back of the cop car. It's kind of fun.

• 7:58Speaker 05

  Oh, that would be the longest ride I've, eh, yeah, probably the longest ride I've ever taken in the back of a cop car.

• 8:04Speaker 07

  What I like about it is I was very excited to make eye contact with other motorists, you know, during Denver traffic.

• 8:11Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:11Speaker 07

  Doesn't happen. Nobody looks at you.

• 8:14Speaker 05

  No.

• 8:14Speaker 07

  But it's a fun game.

• 8:16Speaker 05

  Maybe you weren't making enough of a scene. Uh, yeah, we got like a hundred seats left in Wyoming. I think we, we have like a, a space that holds 1,100. And we got 100 left. So, uh, yeah, if you like making a little drive and, and learning about the mountain men, come on out and see us. Uh, Yanis, I understand you have a announcement you'd like to make?

• 8:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, I just saw that too, and I wasn't quite prepared, but it's a bummer to have to give this announcement. But it's in regards to the, uh, 7 hunters that were on that flight going to DC last week that crashed and that lost their lives. Uh, they came, they were on their way home from, uh, Fowl Plains, which Cal, myself, uh, you didn't make it to one, did you? No, Max was on there. Max was there, Brent, Clay did a trip, Steve was going to, missed one. Um, but, uh, yeah, we did our three meteor experiences over there and, uh, yeah, seven of their

• 9:21Speaker 06

  hunters were on their way home and unfortunately lost their lives, so, um,

• 9:28Speaker 06

  our thoughts, prayers go out to, uh, everybody involved and associated with them. But, uh, if you'd like to help out the families that are, uh, very affected by losing these seven, uh, men, uh, there's a couple of ways you can help out. There's a, uh, a, uh, GoFundMe page that, uh, is, uh,

• 9:53Speaker 06

  I think the title is "Help Southern Maryland Families After Flight 5342 Crash." They've already raised, this is awesome, they've raised 200 and almost $218,000. Their goal was $200,000, so, uh, awesome. Thank you for everybody's, uh, donated so far. Um, if you wish to help them out, you can. And there's another way, uh, you can help them out. There's a all-inclusive three-day goose hunt at Fowl Plains, um, that they're putting on. Uh, Southern Oak Kennels is involved, I believe, uh, you get some puppy training along with this. Uh, they've sold 970 of the tickets. There's, uh, nine days still remaining to buy tickets.

• 10:36Speaker 06

  Uh, it's like a raffle deal, I'm guessing, so, uh, if you wish to help out these families, there's a couple of great ways to do that. Again, uh, thoughts go out to everybody over there at Fowl Plains and everybody else affected with that.

• 10:50Speaker 05

  And, uh, Cal, it seems we also have announcements from you.

• 10:56Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:57Speaker 05

  Some fun events coming up.

• 10:59Speaker 07

  Upcoming. Real quick, if anybody's planning on heading over, or if you're not planning on heading over, but you're in that, um, big Nashville area during the National Wild Turkey Federation, um, get together, we are going to host in conjunction with N W T F Friday night, a big series of giveaways. It's like an after-party to the big banquet that they have. This one, I think, is 40 bucks to get in the door. Uh, ruffling off a bunch of really great prize packages of first light and guns and all sorts of good things. Uh, the Isbell Brothers

• 11:42Speaker 07

  are gonna be there playing music. Uh, Spencer Newharth and Clay Newcomb are gonna put together, and, you know, Yannis and I'll all help too, uh, some live trivia for everybody. We're gonna help MC and one of the big draws is if you've never got a Gould's Turkey, you can put your name in the hat for Gould's Turkey Hunt. Um, same with Miriam's, Eastern's, um, Rio's, you know, so it can help you complete your Turkey Slam. And all you gotta do is show up and, and help another super awesome habitat organization, N W T F. So you get a membership with that, of course, and, uh, we'll be there helping, you know,

• 12:24Speaker 07

  grease the economic wheels of conservation. So, um, you don't have to be a member to show up, but you should show, show up and become a member and you can win a bunch of stuff.

• 12:36Speaker 06

  I'm, I'm going just so, uh, Dan Isbell shows me a picture of his giant buck and I get to hear the story of that giant buck he killed in Kansas.

• 12:46Speaker 07

  There you go.

• 12:46Speaker 06

  So if you're there, he might tell you that story.

• 12:48Speaker 05

  So if you're not into turkeys, there's also that.

• 12:51Speaker 06

  There's that. And those boys be playing music. I wanna point out that when we did that episode of Luke Combs, uh, pronghorn hunting, they were both there and, uh, Reed sang a little bit for me, like separately from the group.

• 13:05Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 13:05Speaker 06

  And I was like, wow, that's amazing. And then when I pressed him on it to do it more, he didn't really want to sing more in front of the bigger group. I didn't really understand why.

• 13:14Speaker 05

  What did he sing to you?

• 13:15Speaker 06

  Just, I don't know, one of his songs that he, he, it wasn't a love song, I don't believe. It was just a country song. But beautiful voice. And so I'm really happy to see that he's back in the, back in the, you know,

• 13:28Speaker 05

  In the saddle?

• 13:28Speaker 06

  In the saddle and gonna do some singing and playing some music for us. So.

• 13:32Speaker 07

  And your average country song's like three and a half, four minutes at this point, I think. I think a lot of them are actually getting shorter than that. So if you want to have the buck conversation, you're gonna have to be like, yeah, hey, man, I heard you heard about a big buck. And then they're gonna play a song. And you're gonna have to think about the next part of that story for two and a half, three and a half minutes. But it can be done. Good, good draw.

• 13:55Speaker 05

  And then the night after the big party.

• 13:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, if you can't make it to Nashville to hang out, but you're in the Salt Lake City area, you can come hang out at?

• 14:07Speaker 07

  Party for Public Lands. Utah BHA is doing the heavy lifting on this one. They're kicking butt. They got a bunch of brands together. Bunch of folks that are gonna show up to the beer bar Saturday night, Salt Lake City.

• 14:24Speaker 07

  This is in conjunction with the MDF. They've been in the loop the whole way. Doors are open to all nonprofits. And it's just a celebration of public lands. We're gonna give away a bunch of stuff to help get you in the door. And there's gonna be some ways that you can throw some cash at the support of public lands. But it's really important to get everybody together, show a big, broad coalition of folks that know that federally managed lands are public lands. And those are the ones that are open to everybody to go out and explore, hunt, fish, recreate. Super important to us. And we want you to show up Saturday night at the beer bar.

• 15:09Speaker 07

  You can track down the event through Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. And pre-register to make sure that you have.

• 15:20Speaker 07

  A ticket to get in the door.

• 15:23Speaker 06

  Does it cost anything to get in?

• 15:25Speaker 07

  Doesn't cost anything to get in, but we are gonna hit maximum capacity on the venue. So you can ensure the fact that you can get in by registering early. And then we are also going to allow some pre-registration at the first light booth at Western Hunt Expo as well. Yannis and I and a bunch of the first light crew are gonna be down there.

• 15:52Speaker 07

  We're coming in a little late, but look for that big first light booth, Phelps booth, FHF booth, Dave Smith decoy booth at the Western Hunt Expo. We'll get you pointed in the right direction.

• 16:03Speaker 06

  Yep, come show me a picture of your big buck. Tell me a story.

• 16:08Speaker 05

  A big Kuz deer buck.

• 16:09Speaker 06

  Make it, make it real quick. Sure, if you kill the Kuz deer, I'd love to see it.

• 16:13Speaker 05

  Speaking of photos of Kuz deer buck, Phil.

• 16:16Speaker 07

  Bucks. Yes.

• 16:19Speaker 05

  I think it's time for show and tell.

• 16:20Speaker 07

  Show and tell, you say?

• 16:22Speaker 05

  Please.

• 16:31Speaker 07

  Oh, you're missing out, Cal.

• 16:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:43Speaker 05

  Did you do the light thing before?

• 16:45Speaker 07

  No, that's new.

• 16:46Speaker 05

  That's really nice.

• 16:46Speaker 07

  I'm just trying stuff over here. Some of it will stick, some won't, but you know.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  I think we keep, I think we keep the pulsing light show.

• 16:53Speaker 07

  Great, sounds good. Yeah, it was nice. Nice touch.

• 16:55Speaker 05

  Well, we've got some photos. As we've mentioned, we just got back from Mexico last week. We've got some photos to share with the gang.

• 17:02Speaker 07

  That's pre haircut there.

• 17:04Speaker 05

  Pre haircut, brought in the sides a little bit. Actually, this photo was inspiration for the haircut. Based on the comments I received. That's the buck I shot on. Day, uh, day four, maybe of being down there? Day four, day five, something like that?

• 17:20Speaker 06

  They kinda all run together.

• 17:23Speaker 05

  Tell me about it. But yeah, this, we got like, Yanis and I were actually trying to get me to shoot another buck earlier that morning and he dove over a ridge. And, uh, then this buck was chasing a doe on the same hillside a little ways down. So we rallied up and met up with Seth and Cade, who's one of the guides down there. And, uh, this buck and a smaller buck were chasing a doe, just kinda going crazy all over the hillside. And they went down into a bottom and then popped up, uh, two something?

• 17:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:55Speaker 05

  Two, two fifty. Uh, and he paused for just a second, maybe to catch his breath or collect his thoughts, um, because he was having a rather active morning. And I shot him, uh, and, uh,

• 18:07Speaker 06

  And you put an end to all that.

• 18:08Speaker 05

  I did, I did. Um, but that was great. I was, uh, super excited to just be able to go down there on like 48 hours notice. And then, uh, I wanted to shoot a buck that looked like a koozieer buck. And that's the buck I found.

• 18:23Speaker 06

  That looks like one.

• 18:23Speaker 05

  And then the, the other funny twist to this was there was a bigger buck on that hill, Macho Grande. And, uh, we were trying to get Seth to shoot him, but he never popped back up. But there was a moment in time when Cade and I were retrieving that buck where we, uh, we heard Yanis say on the radio, Seth, why don't you get behind the gun? And Cade and I sprinted to the nearest little, uh, creek bottom and hid behind some big rocks until the coast was clear. So we even had a little bit of adventure after I'd pulled the trigger.

• 18:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 05

  Um, but yeah, just, uh, just a really nice, uh, morning. I was happy to do it with all my friends there. I, I think that was the only buck I was present for the shooting of.

• 19:03Speaker 06

  Well, you had two others that literally slipped out of being, uh, your buck, uh,

• 19:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 06

  By just seconds.

• 19:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, the, maybe the morning before.

• 19:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, the morning before.

• 19:16Speaker 05

  We, uh, Seth and Yanis turned up a buck that was just cruising down a hill and by the time I got there and got set up on him, he had walked down to the bottom and was coming up our side. So I did a little hike around the other side, tried to turn him up, but never saw him again. And then we made a big hike over to the agave patch and there was a buck over there, maybe a couple bucks and they never turned up, but I did have a doe almost step on me.

• 19:44Speaker 06

  Oh, right. That was exciting.

• 19:46Speaker 05

  I wish we had that on video, but yeah, we were waiting for these deer to step out and I'm laying down behind the gun and Yanis is messing with his backpack and something just passes right in front of my face and I thought maybe his seat, like his foam seat pad blew away or something blew out of his backpack. And then I thought, because it's windy, and then I thought a foam seat blowing away wouldn't spray gravel on my face and gun. And I looked up and there was a doe. She had literally stepped between me and the bush that was maybe six feet away. And that's probably the closest I've ever come to having a deer step on me.

• 20:23Speaker 06

  It was close.

• 20:24Speaker 07

  We did have multiple days of 20 to 30 mile an hour sustained winds.

• 20:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:31Speaker 06

  It was brutal.

• 20:32Speaker 05

  And Cal had a couple other close encounters with deer just wandering up the, up to his glassing point.

• 20:39Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I did have a buck and doe, just kind of leisurely walk within under 10 yards, which was always fun.

• 20:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:48Speaker 07

  I thought it was my glassing partner, Pete, walking around and I finally looked and no, it was two deer.

• 20:56Speaker 06

  It was deer.

• 20:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 07

  Cute little deer.

• 20:58Speaker 05

  Lots of stories, lots of fun. Here's, here's a picture of your buck, Cal. Why don't you tell us about that guy?

• 21:04Speaker 07

  Oh, so we spotted this guy the first after, it was like the not technically what we would have typically said is like the hunt day. Obviously you get all the hunting in that you can, but we went out, made sure our rifles were sighted in. And shot a bunch of rocks and, and paper, which is super fun. And then we split off to just kind of casually look for deer and Seth and I ended up sprinting off of one mountain and doing a nice jog. I turned to Seth at one point and I said, because he was running behind me picking up all the stuff that was falling off, off of me, which is nice to have that back up. And I said, we're just going to keep up this pace as

• 21:49Speaker 07

  long as gravity allows.

• 21:50Speaker 06

  Yep. As soon as we hit the uphill, went to a walk.

• 21:55Speaker 07

  We went to a walk, yep. But made it up, onto the same slope that the buck was on,

• 22:03Speaker 07

  just in time to see him get kind of set up and he slipped behind a tree and we were ready to smoke him as soon as he stepped out of the, the bush that he went behind and he never stepped out from behind the bush. So.

• 22:21Speaker 05

  As coos deer do all the time.

• 22:23Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was. Disappear. They have like this reputation as like being very hard to see.

• 22:30Speaker 07

  The gray ghost.

• 22:31Speaker 05

  The gray ghost. And I was surprised as a first time coos deer hunter, you know, like we're spotting a lot of them. I was sort of thinking we'd get there and just be grinding it out, trying to find a deer. We found a lot of deer, but man, a lot of the deer that were interesting would just step behind something and you'd never see them again for the rest of the week. I thought that was the most.

• 22:53Speaker 07

  Flat light, low light situations.

• 22:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:55Speaker 07

  They, it's shocking how they can be standing on a relatively wide open hillside in the open.

• 23:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 07

  And just totally be invisible to the, to the naked eye.

• 23:08Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 23:09Speaker 07

  At, at distance especially. So, yeah. Anyway, we stayed with this little ball of rut activity for the next day and a half. And could not turn this dude up, but it was still just kind of the place to be. And, and eventually he, we had not seen a deer all morning. And.

• 23:36Speaker 07

  Pretty close to one o'clock in the afternoon. One doe stepped out. And it was right before it was about to hike off and go check out another spot. And sat back down, stared at the doe, looked all around. Forever, nothing came out. And then finally, that dude rolled out and uh, yeah, great buck. Nice, carries all the mass all the way through and um.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, nice heavy buck.

• 24:03Speaker 05

  One of his sides, the picture doesn't really capture it, but one of his sides, the, the main beam just ends in like a broom handle.

• 24:11Speaker 07

  Like it flattens out, which is kinda neat.

• 24:13Speaker 05

  And it's, yeah, like from the top, it just looks like the end of a hot dog. It's just, there's no point to it. It's just round and, round and thick.

• 24:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, that's, so that was, that was super awesome. Uh, and that pea shooter there is the short action sawtooth, which is a, a new build for Sig Sauer and uh.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, sweet, sweet shooting gun. Very cool.

• 24:38Speaker 07

  I'm, I'm gonna be honest with everybody, like, we're not hiking our butts off like we typically do on a ton of hunts. You gotta get someplace high and see a ton of country. Um, kind of get math to work on your sides in the, in the cows, deer, uh, arena. So there's a lot of sitting and, and those guns are incredible shooting platforms. And all of us have lots of wind to deal with and it's just so nice. Bipod on that sawtooth is just rock solid.

• 25:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm jealous of yours. Mine was shooting good, but yours is pretty much punching the same hole at a hundred yards, which is pretty sweet.

• 25:18Speaker 07

  Yeah, and yeah, not with a ton of bags and stuff, right? Like, I feel like you could, if you really solidified that position, it might be doing just a smidge better.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:31Steven Rinella?

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• 26:15Steven Rinella?

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• 26:50Steven Rinella?

  Here we have a photo of Seth's buck. What is that weird photo?

• 26:56Speaker 05

  Well, Phil, why don't you click to the right there?

• 26:58Speaker 06

  That's how an artist. That's an artsy photo.

• 27:00Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 27:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 27:02Steven Rinella?

  Picture boy.

• 27:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, so my, I don't know how many days into the trip it was when I killed mine.

• 27:08Steven Rinella?

  The day after mine.

• 27:09Speaker 06

  The day after yours.

• 27:10Steven Rinella?

  So whatever nonspecific answer I gave for that, just add one and you'll know when Seth killed his.

• 27:16Speaker 06

  Randall's buck plus one. So this, so we're pretty sure that you guys saw this buck the day before. We got a quick little glimp, glimpse of it and it disappeared like kuzdeer do. Next morning, I found myself looking at the same hillside. And yeah, just happened to pick this buck up on the hillside. He kind of rolled over the ridge with a smaller buck. And then he bedded down in the wide open. And I was like, oh, this is perfect. Just gonna go down there. I was like 800 and some yards at this point. I was like, I'm just gonna run down there and kill him. Well, I go down there and can't find him. He's like, um, Cade, our, our one guy that we were with,

• 28:00Speaker 06

  he was watching him the whole time while I was like making a move on him and he's like, yeah, he's still, still there, but where like where I was, um, you just couldn't see him on the hillside. So I kind of moved around and ended up like getting on this little knob at the base of the hill and just sitting there waiting for him to, to move. And then he did get up and move and then Cade lost him and we just like lost this buck. And, uh, I was kind of getting ready to just give up and go look for a different buck because I thought he like just got out of there without a scene. And, uh, um, Cade, uh, ended up finding him again. And it turns out that I had ended up about 120 yards from this buck, not knowing it. Um,

• 28:43Speaker 06

  so I actually had to pick all my stuff up and like very quietly backtrack and go from about 120 yards to 300 yards where I ended up shooting them. Just so I could get a shot at him because where, where I was sitting, I couldn't see him. So, um, yeah, it was kind of a bit of a scramble to get there, set up on a tripod and, uh, rest was history. Shot him at 310 yards.

• 29:09Speaker 05

  Lovely, lovely.

• 29:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 05

  Uh, we got some, some, uh, photos here from Seth.

• 29:15Speaker 06

  Oh yeah, there's Randall putting his boots on in the morning. I, uh, the, the photos I shared here were not much of the hunt, just because we were kind of playing with a bunch of unreleased SIG products that I had a bunch of photos of, so I couldn't really share those yet, but uh,

• 29:29Speaker 05

  Great fireplace.

• 29:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was just, just kind of our environment down there, what we experienced and some,

• 29:34Speaker 05

  Quite a few of those.

• 29:35Speaker 06

  Authentic Mexican food.

• 29:36Speaker 07

  We've had a few questions about the taste difference between cows, deer and whitetail up here. Is there any, anything noticeable there? I've been eating cows, deer. Uh, non-stop since, since we've gotten back and it's fantastic. Um, just, I mean, so you're aware, a lot of cowboys on the ranch. Uh, and they absolutely love this meat. Uh, it's highly sought after, so we typically do give some meat away. We ate a whole ham while we were down there.

• 30:09Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:10Speaker 06

  Chili Colorado.

• 30:11Speaker 07

  Chili Colorado, which is great. And then, um, yeah, I, I took the loins, tender loins and, and parted out the front shoulders and took those home and then gave, gave the rest to the, to the caballeros on, on the place. Um, and, uh, it's good. It's really good. I think it's very tender. Uh, super awesome there. I got a little tub of, um, front leg curry down there that is fantastic. And eaten, you know, several little backstrap steaks and, um, they're, they're awesome. Really good, really good. Is it distinct from

• 30:55Speaker 07

  the rest of your North American whitetails? I, I think you're gonna have like,

• 31:00Speaker 07

  like, these are non-GMO whitetails, right? Like, they're not getting anywhere near, uh, corn, soybeans, et cetera. So I think there's gonna be a, a different flavor to, um, to this deer versus like your, your Iowa corn patch deer. And, uh, we have a question for Yanis. Let me see if I can find it here. Okay, this is from Attack the, the D Point. He says, so I heard that Yanis ate 11 burritos one day on the Mexico trip. Is this true?

• 31:32Speaker 06

  Yes. Am I even gotten to 12 the next day? Uh, they're small burritos though. They're not like the one burrito you buy for $10 for lunch and it fills you up. These are depending on bite size, you know, three to four bite burritos, would you say?

• 31:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, the lunch burritos are, I mean, I made some, I made some real units of dinner.

• 31:55Speaker 06

  You made some, uh, gringo of burritos. So did I. So tha- that day that I set this, uh, record that now stands at that ranch, uh, I think for breakfast, I had two or three big gringo breakfast burritos. Then I had, uh,

• 32:12Speaker 05

  five for lunch.

• 32:15Speaker 06

  I think I had eight.

• 32:17Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 32:17Speaker 06

  Cause I had my four, plus I brought four more from the guy that wasn't eating his burritos. But I gave one of his away to you, right?

• 32:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 06

  Yeah. So what does that bring me up to? That's nine. And then I think I had two or three at dinner.

• 32:31Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then you had a, you had just one, you had a dessert burrito too.

• 32:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's straight frijoles.

• 32:36Speaker 05

  Just frijoles.

• 32:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's how I like my dessert down there in Mexico.

• 32:39Speaker 05

  But all, all the meals, all the meals were the exact same, except for the protein. Like breakfast and dinner. And lunch were tortillas. Uh, you had tortillas, frijoles. Some cheese, some hot sauce or salsa. And then a big pot of either eggs or.

• 33:01Speaker 06

  Chorizo.

• 33:01Speaker 05

  Chorizo, or I think there was beef one night, there's pork one night. I mean, it was like.

• 33:06Speaker 07

  In Sonora, no matter what, there's going to be. A pot of frijoles at every meal. That is a Sonora thing.

• 33:13Speaker 06

  And tortillas.

• 33:14Speaker 05

  And it's the same pot of frijoles. It just gets added to throughout the week.

• 33:18Speaker 07

  Delicioso.

• 33:19Speaker 06

  It's so good.

• 33:19Speaker 05

  Very delicioso.

• 33:20Speaker 06

  They're refried beans. I like to point out too, it's more like gravy consistency. Where here, I feel like you get refried beans on your plate and it's, uh, it's a lot drier. There's more consistency to it.

• 33:31Speaker 07

  More like a mashed potato.

• 33:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, you can eat it with a fork.

• 33:34Speaker 05

  You could sip these frijoles.

• 33:35Speaker 06

  Where down there, those beans, you can't eat with a fork. You have to have a spoon.

• 33:39Speaker 05

  Yeah. Fantastic. Um. Phil, we got a couple. The other thing we did on this trip, uh. Was, uh, Yanis, you're testing some, some materials on some britches. I didn't get that video.

• 33:53Speaker 06

  True that.

• 33:53Speaker 05

  But we have some other, uh.

• 33:54Speaker 06

  You have that or you don't?

• 33:55Speaker 05

  I, I couldn't find it, but we do have some other, uh, videos here of some.

• 33:59Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.

• 34:00Speaker 05

  Some product testing and promo.

• 34:01Speaker 07

  Yeah. I mean, in the spirit of the Superbowl coming up, you know, one thing everyone talks about the commercials.

• 34:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 07

  And First Light actually commissioned you guys to, to.

• 34:08Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 34:09Speaker 07

  Shoot some stuff just for, I think they're going to do a big ad blitz.

• 34:12Speaker 05

  Seth and I were inspired.

• 34:14Speaker 07

  Yeah, let's take a look at these here.

• 34:17Speaker 05

  Can your reindeer?

• 34:20Speaker 05

  Can your reindeer do this? Can it do this? Omen storm shelter.

• 34:27Speaker 07

  Huh.

• 34:28Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 34:29Speaker 07

  That was a good, that was a good use of money from First Light. Uh, there's, there's a few more, I think, right?

• 34:32Speaker 05

  We didn't get paid much for these.

• 34:34Speaker 06

  I'll give that one like a five out of 10.

• 34:36Speaker 07

  Okay, how about this one?

• 34:38Speaker 05

  Need some tough brush bustin' pants, but you don't want to lose all your mobility.

• 34:43Speaker 03

  Sawbuck pants by First Light.

• 34:46Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 34:46Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 34:47Speaker 05

  We're improving our craft here.

• 34:48Speaker 06

  It's getting better.

• 34:51Speaker 05

  Who directed that one?

• 34:52Speaker 03

  Do you need a warm hat that'll also protect your dome when you're moving through brush?

• 34:57Speaker 03

  Uh, whatever hat this is.

• 35:02Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 35:03Speaker 05

  And then this one is, is, uh, shows sort of the adaptability of some of the First Light line here.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  Do you want to look good on the streets but still need to be active?

• 35:19Speaker 03

  First Light's 308 pants.

• 35:22Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 35:23Speaker 05

  That was the trip back from the old McDonald's there. First stop once we hit free soil.

• 35:28Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a meat eater tradition. When you get, get back to America, we like to go to make, to the Golden Arches to celebrate freedom.

• 35:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, First, First Light doesn't know that we made those. No, no. I'm sure you'll see more. I'm sure they're thrilled now. My phone's ringing.

• 35:44Speaker 06

  Watch out for those when you're watching the Super Bowl.

• 35:47Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:47Speaker 06

  You might be able to vote on your favorite.

• 35:51Speaker 06

  I like the high kick one the best. That really shows off your athletic ability.

• 35:55Speaker 05

  I like the urban parkour. Yeah. I wish we'd gotten the first one when we were going to McDonald's and I fell off that wall and did a somersault unintentionally.

• 36:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, we've got, we've got a bunch of people saying who Randall looks like in those videos. We've got John Wilkes Booth. That's a good one.

• 36:11Speaker 05

  Oh, I've got three words for you there. Six semper tyrannus.

• 36:15Speaker 06

  There you are. Bringing it back. Um, we've got, uh, you know, Doc from Back to the Future. I think we've heard that one before. Dwight, Dwight Schrute. I think that's kind of rude.

• 36:23Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. Um. Vibes though, not appearance, just vibes.

• 36:27Speaker 06

  His hair looks like Bill, Bill Murray in Kingpin. We've got. But that fella, that fella says, I gotta get those pants. So.

• 36:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 36:34Speaker 06

  There it is. It works. Success.

• 36:37Speaker 07

  You're welcome first light.

• 36:38Speaker 05

  Oh, that's good stuff. That's good stuff. Do we have anything else to share from our trip or should we move on to our guest?

• 36:44Speaker 06

  Uh, I will say, you know, you've heard the buzz. We've all heard the buzz about the Sig Zulu six binoculars. The image stabilized. This trip like hands down made it, made me a believer of that binocular. It blew the first five out of seven days. I'd say what average?

• 37:06Speaker 07

  The wind, the wind blew, not the binocular.

• 37:08Speaker 06

  Twenty, twenty miles an hour with gusts well into the thirties all day long. It wasn't until the last two days where we had like a nice, sonoran morning where it was quiet and just, and just clear and you could get sunburned. The rest of the days, it was just honking and those image stabilized binoculars mean the difference between that and non. On a tripod now, not just handholding, but on a tripod, regular binoculars still shaking. The, the, you know, the image is shaky. You're trying to find a deer that's eighty to a hundred pounds. Very hard.

• 37:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:43Speaker 06

  Image stabilized, huge difference.

• 37:46Speaker 07

  We heard coyotes yippen one day and Seth freehand with the image stabilized binoculars like, oh, there they are. And, and he's like, no, no, no, way out in that flat. And I, uh, ranged them at, uh, almost sixteen hundred yards. Yeah. That was with the twelves.

• 38:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, pretty impressive.

• 38:05Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think the twelves are my favorite.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  These are, these were, I, you know, even though it was windy, these fifteens, this is what I spotted my buck with, this exact pair. But these on a tripod were just phenomenal for finding those little things.

• 38:20Speaker 07

  Glass, yeah.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:23Speaker 07

  All right. I think we've got a guest waiting for us.

• 38:25Speaker 05

  Let's talk some more Mexico.

• 38:27Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:27Speaker 05

  Good friend, good friend, Phil Cramer. Phil, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm good, gentlemen. How about yourselves? Oh, great.

• 38:36Speaker 06

  Well, we're a little sad that we're not in Mexico hunting anymore, but we're, uh, slowly making our way back to reality.

• 38:44Speaker 05

  You go through that.

• 38:45Speaker 06

  Little depression when you first get home.

• 38:47Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 38:48Speaker 06

  Especially since it's been snowing nonstop since we've gotten home, so.

• 38:52Speaker 07

  Those little deer, all you'd be able to see is the top of their racks right now in Bozangels here.

• 38:56Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:58Speaker 05

  So Phil, uh, we just had the pleasure of spending a little over a week with you down south of the border. But, uh, could you tell our audience a little bit about, uh, who you are and, and what you do and what your experience is?

• 39:13Speaker 06

  Absolutely. But I must say, I almost didn't recognize you. Rojo Grande with a haircut.

• 39:19Speaker 05

  Oh, thank you. You're the first person to mention it. You're the first person. Everybody else has just sort of brushed it off. I was really excited to debut the new, uh, do here, but thank you, Phil. I appreciate that.

• 39:31Speaker 06

  You bet, you bet. Well, guys, uh, my name's Phil Cramer. Uh, I live in Arizona, born and raised here. Uh, moved off to a couple of different states throughout, uh, school and my career. I grew up on the back of my dad in a backpack or in a trapline and that kind of instilled a love for the outdoors. And I've never been able to shake it and God willing, I'll have it till the day I die. So with that being said, I've always been in the outdoors. I've always hunted. I've always found any excuse I could to get outside and that has kind of led me to Jay Scott Outdoors and Gould's Turkey Hunt.

• 40:13Speaker 06

  And that was a combination of timing with Jay looking to expand the business and grow it as well as me making a full-time career change. Uh, prior to that, I worked in the drilling industry, which fortunately left enough time for me to be in the outdoors and chasing my passion when I wasn't on a drill rig. So everything kind of worked together and now it's full-time. Um, I spend the majority of my time down in Mexico, looking at ranches, scouting new ranches, uh, going to some of our existing ranches and making sure everything's good there. And then as I got to do with you gentlemen, I get to guide and, and that's when the real fun happens is

• 40:55Speaker 06

  getting to interact with you guys and seeing what we can put on the ground and battling the winds when it happens.

• 41:01Speaker 05

  Yes, we did our fair share of that over the past, uh, week or so.

• 41:08Speaker 05

  I don't know if you guys have questions, but this was a first time trip to Mexico for me and my first time hunting out of the country. I wonder if you have just like a few thoughts on, for those who have never done this, what do people need to know about Mexico and what sort of, what can they expect? Um, cause I think there's, I've talked to a lot of people since I got back and said, oh man, that's always been a bucket list trip for me. But um, it's a little intimidating to leave the country and go hunting in a place where you don't speak the language. So could you just share a little bit about that?

• 41:41Speaker 06

  You bet. And I think the, the first thing to remember is anytime you leave the country, you know, make sure you have your passport. Make sure you do your research. Make sure you're going with a trusted outfitter and/or a person that knows the ins and outs of where you're going. A lot of people are intimidated and there's a lot of stuff in the news that makes people think it's not safe. However, this is my 17th year doing it. Um, I think it's Jay's 28th or 29th year, and we're very fortunate that we've never had a bad experience. We can say there's a lot of things to that. And the main thing is, is we do our research, we work with the local people, we make sure that all of our paperwork's in order. We work with licensed Mexican outfitters to make

• 42:24Speaker 06

  sure that everything we're doing is above board. We're not traveling to spots that are unsafe and we're doing everything right. So my first and foremost advice to anyone looking into doing a trip like this is make sure you go with a reputable outfitter. Do your research, get references. If they can't provide references, then it's probably a red flag. But don't be afraid to go because as you guys saw, and, and most of you guys have been down there quite a bit, it's a trip of a lifetime. I mean, you get to experience true Mexican culture, true authentic food. And best of all, when you're out on those hills, most of the time your phone's not ringing. You don't have cell service and you get back to the way life should be.

• 43:02Speaker 05

  Amen. Uh, how would you compare this year's deer season? You're, you're back at home in Arizona. How would you compare this year's deer season to, um, those you've experienced previously in terms of bucks and weather and all that? What are your takeaways from your 2025 season?

• 43:19Speaker 06

  As you guys witnessed firsthand, the weather was horrendous. Um, normally you'll get a day or two of winds that, you know, will gust 20, 30 miles an hour. For whatever reason this year, especially during your trip, the wind did not let up. Uh, it never blew itself out at night. Every morning we agreed it would just a blast of air right in your face. And that made it difficult. As you guys mentioned, uh, you're looking for a little animal and anytime you have that wind, everything around you is moving, your optics are moving and it makes it difficult. The other thing is coos deer or cows deer, uh, depending on how you say it, is they're a small animal and they hate the wind. Uh, it, it dulls their senses. It makes it harder for them

• 44:00Speaker 06

  to smell predators to hear, uh, so they don't move near as much. And with the drought that we've been having for the last two years and it made it double tough. We were very fortunate. We were able to dig out some really good bucks and a lot of our hunters had, uh, experienced great success. And all I can say is we're looking forward to some rain and some good moisture and God willing, the weather cooperating a little bit, but one thing about it is no matter what the weather is, we can't do anything about it. Just go down and hunt hard and, and we're very fortunate that we have good properties, good genetics, and we can scratch out some good deer.

• 44:36Speaker 05

  Love it. Yeah, we, uh, I mean, despite the weather, we were out there in the dark in the morning and hunting till dark in the evening, which is I think always the mark of a, a great trip.

• 44:48Speaker 06

  That, uh, that one windy day, I think it was the second to last day, or it might've been the last day. We watched that doe just stand there in the sun for an hour and a half and not move.

• 44:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 06

  It's just when it's windy and cold like that, those things you, you can just tell, you just look at them and they're like, damn, yeah, they're just like, I just don't want to do anything.

• 45:08Speaker 05

  And not a lot of body fat on them to keep them warm.

• 45:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 45:11Speaker 05

  Uh, Phil?

• 45:14Speaker 05

  We got a question for you and I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but Yes, you do. You know, you talked about references from clients and how important those are to check out. I was wondering if you could provide some references for the four Mediator crew members who had the pleasure of joining you. If you just have a couple of words, you know, reviewing your experience. You know, whatever comes to mind. We're all here. We're all listening. We're all trying to improve as hunters, so. Why does Pete from SIG Sauer get a free out? Cause he's not here to defend himself? I mean, we can talk whatever we want about Pete. That's right. You got a word or two? No, I don't, but I thought, you know, if Phil did. Yeah. Phil, what do you say?

• 45:58Speaker 05

  Take them in any order that you'd like to, please.

• 46:02Speaker 06

  Well, I'll tell you what, Randall. I'll start with Rojo Grande, AKA Wonder Boy. You know, there's a lot of names we got for you, but it was an absolute pleasure. I was greatly surprised. You told me first time coups hunter. I go, oh boy, he's not gonna see a deer. And I tell you what, Randall, you did very good. I was very impressed with your glassing ability. Not only that, you know, as I, well, as I do, a lot of times we'll spot something and then trying to walk someone else in on that same animal. So you know, you're looking at the same spot can be very difficult, but you and I, for whatever reason, seemed to click on that. We were able to find the deer, get each other in the same perspective and evaluate the deer. So Randall, I gotta give you props, man. That, that was impressive.

• 46:47Speaker 05

  I appreciate that. It always takes a day or two to like, get your, uh, get your lingo on the same page. You know, what somebody calls a knob and what somebody calls a, you know, this or that. So, uh, yeah, I feel like we became simpatico. Is that Spanish?

• 47:02Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 47:04Speaker 05

  In our, uh, in our glassing, uh, lingo.

• 47:07Speaker 06

  You bet, you bet. And Seth is just calm. Like I had to ask him two or three times, Seth, you okay?

• 47:17Speaker 06

  I never heard anything from him.

• 47:19Speaker 05

  Just in the game, you know?

• 47:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, just quiet and like just going with the flow. And I was like, oh, Seth's still here.

• 47:26Speaker 06

  Never knew he was around until it was go time and time to shoot. So, uh, really enjoyable. Aw, awesome, awesome, awesome. I didn't get to hunt much with Cal, but we talked a lot on the radio because normally we were not on the same page. We could not figure out where each other was looking. Didn't know there were two mountains at one time, but it was a pleasure. We got to spend a lot of time together in camp and I learned a lot. Um, very interesting and a wealth of knowledge that I never knew existed. It was a lot of fun. Uh, and then Yanni, I mean, we, we hunted together just about every day because we're the only stubborn fools that doesn't think a hundred and five inch buck's a big enough buck. So we got to spend a lot of time together,

• 48:09Speaker 06

  a lot of laughs, a lot of knowledge, going back and forth. He constantly proved me wrong on things that I thought I knew was a holy grail. Um, to the point where he'd give me videos. He's like, Phil, you were wrong.

• 48:24Speaker 06

  Well, you know, you're talking about how it's so important to have the same, uh, nomenclature, right? When you're out there hunting because you are communicating with each other through radios to be like, hey, are you looking at this century plant or this akiti or whatever? And so it's very important to know which ones. And we had, I had, I think last year, a couple of years ago, through that picture of this app, figured out which ones were the century plants. Well, it turns out it's the ones that we also call agave. It's one of the same. It's just that every whatever 75 or a hundred years, they shoot out that stalk and it has the flowers and all that. And then Phil was like, yeah, but it's only that purple one that has the skinnier leaves. I'm like, oh, okay. That's great. I'm glad I learned that. And then the next day I'm walking

• 49:08Speaker 06

  around, I'm like, well, hold on that one with the fat leaves also has a stalk coming out of it. So, yeah, but again, it's, I'm not trying to prove anybody right or wrong, but it's just so that all of us can be on the same page next time. And you're like, yeah, you see that century plant? Yeah. That's where that buck is.

• 49:24Speaker 05

  Yeah. Word of advice for first time Kuzdear hunters, if you don't know anything about plants, uh, there aren't a whole lot of other landmarks out there to like direct people in. A lot of those hillsides are pretty.

• 49:34Speaker 06

  Yeah. You gotta know your.

• 49:35Speaker 05

  They're very.

• 49:35Speaker 06

  Sinoran flora.

• 49:36Speaker 05

  Yeah. They're very uniform. And so it's like below the yucca, above the red oak. There's a, a dead juniper and then there's a dead oak. And it's just like, unless you're dialed in on what you're looking at, you're going to be, your head's going to be spinning.

• 49:50Speaker 06

  Yeah. You spend a lot of time down there trying to. Tell people landmarks that like will walk someone into a deer.

• 49:57Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 49:58Speaker 06

  And when everything looks the same, it's tough to do that.

• 50:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, unless you're saying like, there's three, there's three yuccas.

• 50:06Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 50:07Speaker 05

  Two of them are a little higher. The third one's offset a little bit to the right. Below that is a red oak.

• 50:12Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 50:12Speaker 05

  You know, and it's just like, you, you gotta be able to recognize that stuff and not scratch your head. Cause otherwise, everybody else can be looking at that deer and you're going to be looking at the wrong mountain. Sometimes you end up looking at the wrong mountain anyway, right Cal?

• 50:27Speaker 07

  And working really hard at it.

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• 52:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, you've done one too. A lot of hiking, you're just not covering the amount of ground that you wish you could be covering. So it's just much less, it's less efficient hunting. In years past, we've paid people to drive, you know, trucks and side by sides from Montana. We've had friends come from Colorado and bring side by sides to make it easier to cover all those logistics. And it, you know, for those of you that haven't experienced the other, you wouldn't know. But for me, being the guy that's usually worried about all that, it was really nice just to land in Arizona, meet up with these guys and boom, across the border. You know, next thing you know, we're sighting in our rifles and then we're hunting, you know, and they took care of all that.

• 52:59Speaker 06

  That aside, it was awesome for me to go to hang out with a couple of real Cowz deer guides for a week. It was a real confidence booster for me to know that, yes, they definitely did glass up more deer than I did, but not by the ratio that I thought they would.

• 53:18Speaker 06

  So I feel like I'm ready to go Cowz deer hunting again and I'm confident that I can find a couple of deer.

• 53:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, it was a great trip and I think like, part of it too is just having someone with the amount of experience that Phil does. Telling you what, what Cowz deer like, what they don't like, what you've seen them do. I mean, and like predicting what they're gonna do, which is something that, like, even if you've been down there a couple of times, you don't have that depth of knowledge.

• 53:47Speaker 06

  No.

• 53:48Speaker 05

  Well, and just sheer eyes on the mountain, you know, guys helping you glass because a lot of times you'll get up on your glassing point and it's almost overwhelming. And when you can share that with other people that you know are putting in the work and they're able to find.

• 54:02Speaker 06

  Animals, it helps a lot. But one thing I was gonna say on the little review there, I will say Yanis doesn't quit. I mean, on the last night till I was like, it's dark, we're done. Yanis was like, I think I got five more minutes left.

• 54:19Speaker 06

  I mean, just no quit. It was just a great time.

• 54:24Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah, I like to hunt and you know, so I like to hunt right until the end if possible.

• 54:28Speaker 06

  Make sure you're on the same page with identification of the plant. So we did a little, I don't know, show and tell, basically, as you say, uh, when we were on there and getting ready to sight the guns and it's like, okay, this is juniper. That's a red oak. That's a central plant. That's a yucca. That's mesquite. That's an acotillo. So that way, when it came down to the, the nitty gritty, when it was time to find some deer, we were all on the same page. And I think that went a long way through the week we spent together.

• 54:57Speaker 05

  Yeah. No, it was great. And, uh,

• 55:00Speaker 07

  I gotta say, like, even when your butt cheek to butt cheek on the mountain, like you cannot take your eyeballs off a deer. So,

• 55:09Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:10Speaker 07

  Like even if it's a whisper, not over a radio to the person next to you, like you have got to walk them in. And sometimes the deer that you're seeing, it's because it is only because they moved. And it takes a long time for the person right next to you in the exact same spot to stare at that spot and be like, oh, yep, that weird shadow line is part of a deer's butt cheek laying down underneath and behind, uh, whatever. So, uh, that communication can get really frustrating. Uh, so once you lock in, it's an incredible benefit.

• 55:51Speaker 05

  Yep, for sure. Phil, uh, really appreciate your time and really appreciate your, uh, your hospitality last week. I know I speak for all of us when, uh, we had a tremendous experience and, uh, I hope we can hunt again very soon.

• 56:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, but before Phil goes, uh, are there any listener questions or viewer questions?

• 56:12Speaker 07

  Also, Phil, I want you to talk about the Gould Hunt that you're donating for N W T F.

• 56:19Speaker 06

  Absolutely, absolutely. So as I mentioned, also Director of Operations for Gould's Turkey Hunt. And we run approximately 200 to 250 hunters down through Mexico and Sonora and Chihuahua every year chasing the Gould's Turkey. So what we did is actually we were approached and donated a Gould's Turkey Hunt that you'll get to come down and hunt with us either in Sonora or Chihuahua and hopefully knock that Gould's Turkey off your bucket list and go one step further to your Royal Slam or World Slam, whichever it might be. Yeah, and Yanis, we did have one question for Phil that someone actually, someone else in the chat already answered,

• 57:04Speaker 06

  and I'm assuming it's inaccurate. Someone asked what the Boone and Crockett minimum was for cows, deer, and Lance answered 100 inch for typical, 105 for non-typical, if that's, if that's accurate, Phil. I don't know if you're, if you, if you know or not, but. Oh, I'm sure you know. I believe it's 110 actually for typical, but honestly, there's some deer that we kill that just score doesn't do justice. You know, we, we try not, we use score as a descriptive tool, right? Because that's what everyone wants to get and, and it's a, gives us a good tool to actually measure. However, there's some deer that we kill that score just doesn't do justice, even though it might be 116,

• 57:45Speaker 06

  that buck should be 130, just depending on where the mass measurements lie. And you know, the blading, just like cows buck out at the end of the beams, I mean, broomstick, and just didn't get credit for it, except for the one measurement. So I believe it's 110 though for buck minimum.

• 58:04Speaker 05

  Fantastic. Well, Phil, again, pleasure seeing you and maybe we'll run into each other at the Hunt Expo next week.

• 58:14Speaker 06

  Well, Jay and I'll definitely be at the NWT. So anyone out there can look us up. I'm sure I'll run into Yanni and Cal out there and I'm not sure about the Hunt Expo, but if we can get out there, definitely look forward to running into you guys.

• 58:27Speaker 07

  And your hunt is being auctioned Saturday night or Friday night?

• 58:33Speaker 06

  Saturday night at, uh, at the dinner. Yes, sir.

• 58:37Speaker 07

  Cool. Yeah. So you, I think, I think you can bid on those online as well. Um, so if you want to go on a, a killer Gould turkey hunt and support an awesome habitat organization, check, check that one out.

• 58:52Speaker 05

  Alrighty. Thank you, Phil.

• 58:54Speaker 07

  Thanks, Phil.

• 58:55Speaker 05

  Good to see you.

• 58:55Speaker 06

  Appreciate it.

• 58:58Speaker 05

  Uh, Phil, should we take listener feedback now or should we, uh?

• 59:02Speaker 07

  Well, we, we've got a couple. I'll, I'll fire off a couple and then we'll, we'll move on to Jim who's being very, very patient.

• 59:08Speaker 05

  Very patient with us.

• 59:09Speaker 07

  Yes. Thank you, Jim Heffelfinger. Jim's got nothing better to do.

• 59:14Speaker 07

  Uh, Devin asks, hey Seth, how's it going? Just curious who ended up with that sweet alumacraft boat you and Chester did the walleye fishing tour in if you, if you remember?

• 59:24Speaker 06

  Oh yeah, I still have it.

• 59:25Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 59:28Speaker 06

  That's who ended up with it. Uh, yeah, still use it all summer long. Love that boat. Put a lot of fish in that boat. Yeah. Gonna use it again this summer.

• 59:38Speaker 07

  Right on. Uh, Leland is asking Randall, did you come across any mountain women in your research?

• 59:46Speaker 05

  That's a good question. Um, so during the era of the mountain men,

• 59:51Speaker 07

  Great question.

• 59:52Speaker 05

  there weren't a ton of, uh, like Euro-American women who came out, uh, with the trapping brigades. But, um, interestingly enough, a lot of mountain men married into tribes and had, uh, relationships with indigenous women. And that was like a huge part of mountain men culture, like a very significant percentage of all mountain men marriages were two indigenous women. And, I think Bridger was married to three different indigenous women. So in the book, we have a chapter about sort of all the different facets of mountain men, uh, tribal relations. And in that chapter, we do get into, um, Sort of the, the unique history of mountain men marrying, uh, native women.

• 1:00:38Speaker 05

  And we also have a segment of a, uh, the wife of a missionary who attended rendezvous and was horrified at the behavior that she witnessed. So, um, yeah, look forward to that.

• 1:00:49Speaker 07

  Great. Uh, question for Seth. How did you find your place in Alaska? Was it a Zillow thing or just word of mouth?

• 1:00:55Speaker 06

  Uh, I was up at Steve's place, um, one summer just for vacation and it's right next door to his and there was a for sale sign on the front porch.

• 1:01:04Speaker 05

  Good old fashioned way.

• 1:01:05Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:01:07Speaker 07

  Yeah. Uh, hippie homebrew. This is kind of a general question, but, um, it's, it's dumping in Wisconsin. He says, well, he's stuck inside. What's the best way to get out and start prepping shooting lanes during the winter? Anything to do during the spring? I mean, he's just asking about prepping shooting lanes during every season of the year, but you can, if there's anything you can get a head start on when it's during the winter. I don't know if you guys have any.

• 1:01:27Speaker 05

  General winter land management principles for a Wisconsin landowner. I think we have someone who could speak to that.

• 1:01:34Speaker 06

  Is he asking specifically about shooting lanes?

• 1:01:38Speaker 07

  The, I mean, this, I was directing this at, at you, Yanis, just about when, yeah, Randall summed it up well.

• 1:01:43Speaker 05

  What are you doing? What are you doing with your property? What are you thinking about right now with your, with your Wisconsin?

• 1:01:47Speaker 06

  Oh man, what am I not thinking about? Um, but I mean, I guess to answer the, the shooting lane question, uh, I mean, I don't think it'd be really much different in any, uh, season, other than your leaf, you know, coverage might be different. Um, so winter is a great time to do it because it's gonna, it looks most like what it looks like in November now versus, you know, once the, you get new leaves coming out, but, uh, yeah, just get out there with a chainsaw, man, and go to town. Uh, but, uh, you know, if I could get to Wisconsin anytime I wanted to, I'd probably be thinking about maybe doing some frost seeding if there was anything, you know, I'm getting ready to do a big like,

• 1:02:31Speaker 06

  uh, native grass and for, uh, restoration and we'll be applying it through just frost seeding, which is ma- basically means that you're going to add it when there is some snow on the ground and then let the freeze thaw cycle, uh, bring those seeds into the ground versus trying to plant them. Uh, there's that, uh, you know, herbicide, there's probably not much that's really gonna do well, cause the foliar applications won't work, cause there is no foliage. And I don't think that the plants are really still sinesting, so they're not really gonna bring in much herbicide. So that's probably out. Uh, but TSI, timber stand improvement, which is basically walking through the woods with

• 1:03:13Speaker 06

  a chainsaw and, uh, knocking down trees that, uh, you have deemed that aren't, you know, uh, worthwhile for the wildlife in your area. Uh, that's probably, that's like a every day of the year thing. Yeah, well, this time of year puts a lot of buds on the ground for deer to eat. That's right. Which the deer like. That's right. Knock, if you need to knock down some trees. Hope that helps. So you got your homework. Hebrew.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  There you are. All right. Let's get Jim Heffelfinger in here. How about that?

• 1:03:41Speaker 06

  Let's do it. Please.

• 1:03:45Speaker 06

  Jim, thank you for your patience. Jim probably has a thought on what you might do at this time of year in Wisconsin for to improve deer habitat.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  I do. I'm gonna be there in a couple of weeks and my suggestion is spotted cow and bloody marys and find a, a nice tavern.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  For some deep thinking.

• 1:04:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  That's right. For thinking about what you might want to do with your land. Yeah, I have, I have your segue, segue Randall. Um, if you're interested in ghouls turkey restoration in southeastern Arizona, go to Jay Scott's podcast and find the podcast where I talked about bringing ghouls turkeys back to the US from restoring with populations.

• 1:04:21Speaker 06

  Excellent. There you go. Excellent. There you go. Uh, Jim, as a first time coos deer hunter, uh, speaking for myself, you know, this is an animal that you hear a lot about and for someone living in the, in the northern Rockies, it's kind of this far away exotic creature. Can you just tell, uh, tell our listeners a little bit about coos deer, uh, like the differences between whitetail and coos deer and maybe what, how coos deer are doing? Little state of the union. Jim, real quick, before you do that, coos are cows. We've heard it both ways so far.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  Oh, Jim's, Jim's the, the, the main mascot.

• 1:04:59Speaker 06

  I know, I know. That's why I just.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, we talked about this on the podcast. I have, I have an article.

• 1:05:04Speaker 06

  I wonder if you can link that in the show notes where I talk in detail about the the the subspecies is named after Elliot Cowes, early naturalist and army surgeon. And that was his name and it was named after him. So it's it's cows deer. There's no doubt that it's cows deer. Elliot in a footnote in one of his a bird guy and one of his bird magazine, one of his bird articles. He wrote a footnote and said, my name is pronounced C O W Z. And he actually tells us himself how it's pronounced. So there's no question how it's pronounced. I try not to be an enunciation Nazi and and I don't correct anybody. But you know, that's how it's pronounced. So that's how I pronounce it.

• 1:05:37Speaker 05

  Do you feel like cows is gaining any traction whatsoever in your neck of the woods?

• 1:05:44Speaker 06

  I would say there's probably an increase in 1% in the last decade that people using cows instead of coues.

• 1:05:49Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:05:52Speaker 06

  We're getting somewhere. That's it. It's counts as forward movement. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, what I'm surprised at is the the residents that people dig their heels in and they get angry about how you pronounce the deer. And I'm just pointing out the correct way. You can say it any way you want.

• 1:06:09Speaker 05

  Well, Jim, what so if you're explaining to someone what the no matter what you call it, what these things are. Uh, what are some of your main takeaways as far as uh, differentiating a coues deer or cows deer from your average whitetail?

• 1:06:24Speaker 06

  So there are subspecies of whitetail deer. They're they're not some different kind of whitetail. They're they're just like there's there's about 38 subspecies of whitetail in North and South America. And they're just another one, but they are different and we'll look in a minute. Here's a South Texas whitetail, much bigger, of course. And if we put a cow's whitetail next to it. You can see the difference.

• 1:06:49Speaker 06

  Okay, not really, not really. Here's here's a.

• 1:06:54Speaker 06

  So there's a comparison of the skulls of a cow's whitetail versus a Texas whitetail. So think about this. This isn't even just a big borealis Minnesota, Wisconsin whitetail. This is from South Texas. So just like another kind of a southwestern whitetail, but dramatically dramatically different in. But you found a real nice cows deer skull to show off. Yes, that was, this is about a hundred and seven. So you were talking about minimum score. It is a hundred and ten. So that doesn't make it, but that's pretty close to minimum Boone Crockett score.

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:25Speaker 06

  And those two deer have been a couple of years of each other. I mean, they're, they're not dramatically different in age. So it's a valid comparison, especially of skull because they're, they're adult, um, adult deer. Um, Phil, if you can put that map up, let's look at where cows deer are distributed in, in, uh, the Southwest. Just a map from, uh, my book, Deer of the Southwest, and that red is colored what we call cow's whitetail, um, distribution. So you, you can see that it, it doesn't touch any other kinds of whitetails, those species on the west or the north. There's no whitetails in northern Arizona and northern New Mexico. Doesn't touch any whitetails on the east because the Chihuahua Desert's a big grassland and there's not really whitetails out there until you get over into the Carmen Mountain Whitetail in West Texas and then the Texas Whitetail. And so there's a

• 1:08:11Speaker 06

  physical separation on three sides. Now, if you go south into Mexico, the cow's whitetail just blends into all those other smaller whitetails in South Texas. There's a whole bunch of Mexican subspecies of whitetail. None of them are scientifically valid or scientifically supported by real physical differences or genetic differences. When you look at the genetics of all those Mexican subspecies, they just kind of overlap in a, um, a kind of a scattering. And we did, early on, about fifteen years ago, I worked with funding from Boone Crockett Club, worked with some geneticists that I know and I've worked with for a while. I collected with some friends of a bunch of whitetail samples from eastern whitetail, from, um, cow's whitetail in the U.S. and also in Mexico. And we

• 1:08:56Speaker 06

  had geneticists apply a whole bunch of different, uh, genetic, uh, markers and, and fine tune a, a set of markers that really divided animals that are known cow's whitetail deer from animals that are known not cow's whitetail deer, eastern whitetail. And those came from Canada and from Wisconsin and, um, from all kinds of different places that were not cow's whitetail deer. And Phil, if you put that scatter diagram up. You can see what we came up with with a test. Those blue, the blue squares are cows whitetail deer clustering in one neat little cluster. The white is a whole diversity of different whitetail deer from eastern North America that are not cows whitetail deer.

• 1:09:39Speaker 06

  We had one deer then, this is the value of the test, that someone comes up with a deer. And in this case, the guy's last name was Lay, and he had this deer from the attic. And his grandfather said he shot it in southern Arizona. And so he, he, he says, if this is really a cow's whitetail deer, this is the new world record cow's whitetail deer. So it's an example of us applying this genetic test. Taking that unknown deer that someone says is a cow's whitetail deer, running it through the genetic markers, you can see it lands right in the middle of regular eastern whitetails. So the Boone and Crockett and the Pope and Young Club are using that genetic test we developed a long time ago.

• 1:10:16Speaker 06

  To keep the record book categories clean and separate to make sure nobody's got a brand new world record whitetail that's really not a, a world record cow's whitetail. That's really not a cow's whitetail and sneak one of those. And so we can use genetics now to keep those record categories separately. So they do, they do different genetically, mostly because they're physically separate from other whitetails everywhere except when you go south into Mexico.

• 1:10:42Speaker 05

  Jim, I see we had a question in the comments section about, uh, obviously CWD is a big concern for your average whitetail deer hunter. Are there any known instances of, uh, coues deer being affected by CWD and sort of what's the prognosis there? Do you think it's a risk spreading down into that environment?

• 1:11:01Speaker 06

  Arizona has not detected, um, CWD and we've been testing really intensively and we're testing to the, on the eastern border of Arizona because that borders New Mexico, which has some positive deer. We're testing on the north and the northeast because of Colorado and Utah having positive deer. We have not detected it. It's not really being tested that much in Mexico. But there hasn't been, um, there hasn't been any evidence of it in Mexico. So the answer. And in, in southern New Mexico, I don't, I think it's all mule deer that they've had some positives in, in south central New Mexico. So I think the answer is no, cow's whitetail deer has not been, um, hasn't been detected.

• 1:11:40Speaker 06

  And maybe the geographic separation and the lack of people driving back and forth with cows whitetail and, and trailers might help kind of isolate that a little bit.

• 1:11:49Speaker 05

  Phil, any other questions there in the chat? We can throw it, Jim?

• 1:11:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, sure. We got a couple. Marty's asking, do the coastal cows in Mexico show any differences from the rest of the population? I don't know what differences he's referring to, but if you have any insight.

• 1:12:05Speaker 06

  Probably talked, well, he must be talking about the western border, the western coast of Mexico by, by the Gulf of Mexico there, the Sea of Cortez. And, and no, there's genetically, cows whitetail are pretty genetically distinct until you go down, and we did sample a lot of whitetails in Mexico. Till you get down into Mexico, and then it just starts getting a blend of genetics. They're not so distinct there because they don't have that physical separation. And it's unique that in Sonora and, and Sinaloa even, you have these little whitetails that are probably cow's whitetail, living really in some really low desert country. Whereas in Arizona and New Mexico, that would be mule deer habitat. But in, in Sonora, for some reason, we've got whitetails

• 1:12:48Speaker 06

  really low down into the desert, all the way out to the Sea of Cortez. But they're not different. Those whitetails in the state of, mixing state of Sonora, which is southwest of Sonora and along the southwest of Sonora, in the state of Sinaloa, those have been designated as a different sub-species. But that's one of those deals where there really isn't any physical differences or genetic differences that anybody has, has determined to be real differences.

• 1:13:13Speaker 05

  Gotcha. Other listener questions, Phil?

• 1:13:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, we're getting confused. Zach's asking what the typical home range radius and elevation is for cows. He says he's seen them from 1,500 feet all the way up to 5,000 in Arizona.

• 1:13:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, you certainly can see them in those, the, the, the, probably the most of that distribution, though, is going to be from 3,000 feet up to about six, about 7,000 feet. Once you get 7,000 feet, you start getting more into the open ponderosa pine forest, which isn't as good as that mid-elevation with shrubs. And a friend of mine did his master's degree a long time ago in southeastern Arizona and found that the distribution of the shrubs is what really governed the distribution of whitetails. And that was highest in that 4,000, 5,000, 6,000 foot elevation range.

• 1:14:05Speaker 06

  Seems like there's another part of that question. Did I miss something besides elevation? Oh, home range, yeah. Home range radius. So we don't talk so much in terms of radius, but some of the work we did in Southern Arizona showed that it's about a square mile. This country is so rugged from an aerial view and whitetails being whitetails a lot of places, about a square mile is what they'll spend most of their time in. What about during the rut, Jim? Do you know how far they're traveling? I, I don't know, but because we haven't done a lot of like GPS collars to track some of that stuff in Arizona, but they definitely will move. They're not staying in their square mile at that time. And so

• 1:14:43Speaker 06

  when you're out there, you're seeing a lot of bucks on the move and they're not necessarily in the home range you're using the rest of the year. They're out, uh, they're out just looking for, for does that are close to asterisk. Yep.

• 1:14:55Speaker 05

  Jim, did you get out and hunt coues yourself this year?

• 1:14:58Speaker 06

  I didn't. I hunted meal deer. The, when I, when I did my master's degree in South Texas, my, my research was on trophy whitetails in South Texas and coyote predation after the rut. It with trophy whitetails because those bucks are at like close to a one to one buck to doe ratio, old age structure. There's a lot of competition for does, a lot of fighting. And those bucks will lose 20, 25% of their body weight during rut in South Texas because of that. So afterwards they're all worn out. They just want to find some place and, and hang out and recover. And, and also you've got dense coyote populations in South Texas. So we were finding packs of coyotes almost acting like wolves ecologically. Taking down these post rut mature bucks where normally you wouldn't think of a coyote taking down a mature buck, but it was a unique circumstance.

• 1:15:42Speaker 06

  So we knew that was happening. So my research focused on, could you control coyotes on part of the ranch? And, and have so many mature bucks that you save from coyote predation that you would have more bucks to, to hunt. And the answer in the end was no. The answer was we saved a few bucks from coyote predation, but in the grand scheme of things, population wise, ranch wise, it wasn't worth all the money and effort you put into controlling coyotes. You didn't get that much benefit in terms of number of bucks that you save. So that, that's to say.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  Those buck to doe ratios after the rut or during the rut in South Texas are different than you see in a lot of places in the West, although we're going to talk about the status of cows whitetail in Arizona and it's surprisingly well, our harvest and survey data shows a pretty good steady increase for the last 10 years overall in hunt success, the hunt success of hunters. We try to manage in Arizona for, in terms of hunt success, we try to manage between 15 and 25% of the hunters being successful and statewide it was 46% hunt success.

• 1:16:50Speaker 07

  Oh wow, wow.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  Buck to doe ratios, we try to manage between 20 and 30 bucks per 100 does. So 20 per 100 does is one to five ratio, the 30 bucks per 100 does is about a one to three ratio and our average is 25 bucks per 100 does statewide last year. That's a one to four buck to doe ratio in mostly public land hunting. It's controlled with a lottery style draw, so we control the harvest that way, but not a bad buck to doe ratio for public lands in the West for cows whitetail deer.

• 1:17:22Speaker 07

  Is that 46% success rate? Is that a spike from previous years? And if so, what do you think that's attributed to?

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  It's the end of an increasing trend and then also an important point is we have a couple of alternative management units in Arizona where we manage for more mature buck age structure, higher buck to doe ratio, lower 100 densities. And so those are much harder to get drawn, but when you do get drawn, you've got a better experience and a chance to shoot a more mature buck and that statewide total includes a handful of those units that run higher. So that's not the average of some of the places outside of those alternative hunts. And that's at the end of kind of an increasing trend. So not really, I guess it may be a spike, but it's definitely an increasing trend of hunt success for the last five to 10 years, really.

• 1:18:13Speaker 07

  Gotcha. Guys have any other questions for Jim here?

• 1:18:18Speaker 05

  Jim, I think we were running over time here. I apologize. We didn't get you sooner, but before we go, I did want to thank you for a few months ago. You sent me an email about Sonoran hot dogs and received a wonderful recommendation. And then we had the, we had the privilege of joining you for lunch at La Carreta del Rojo Aurora. Still not good on my Spanish despite my immersion experience last week. But you, you, not only did you recommend these dogs, you bought me one or several. And so I did want to publicly just thank you for a wonderful lunch and a tremendous experience talking all things deer and hot

• 1:19:03Speaker 05

  dogs with you.

• 1:19:04Speaker 07

  For, for those that don't know what a Sonoran hot dog is, can you describe it?

• 1:19:10Speaker 05

  How about we let the local expert describe it because there's so many ingredients. I'm afraid I might leave one out.

• 1:19:17Speaker 06

  Yeah. And there's a lot of diversity. Yeah. It was, I, I recommended the best place in Tucson to get Sonoran hot dogs. And, and by happenstance, I live a mile away. So I was able to scoop down and join you all. But it comes in a, a larger kind of a football shaped bun normally that's cut on, on the top, not a regular hot dog bun. The hot dog is usually wrapped in bacon and then the bacon is fried. So it's crispy on the hot dog. And then there's pinto beans, there's mayonnaise, there's mustard, onions, and then usually served with a couple peppers. I think that's probably the, the basis, but then you can have chorizo and cheese and all kinds of things added to that. But pretty delicious.

• 1:19:59Speaker 07

  I did manage to snap a picture of the, the schematic for La Carre- La Carretera.

• 1:20:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:20:07Speaker 07

  It's jalapeno sauce, mayonnaise, mustard, grilled onion, bacon, tomato, hot dog, beans, steamed bun. I thought the grilled bun was one of the, the hallmarks of the Sonoran hot dog, but that's not correct. That's an extra.

• 1:20:26Speaker 06

  Yeah. Steamed, steamed bun is, is what I consider the more typical. Come, it's steamed, so it's warm and a little softer.

• 1:20:32Speaker 07

  Well, that was a huge upgrade in the world of Sonoran hot dogs. So.

• 1:20:36Speaker 07

  Thanks, Jim.

• 1:20:37Speaker 05

  Thank you, Jim. Appreciate it.

• 1:20:39Speaker 07

  Thanks, Jim.

• 1:20:40Speaker 06

  All right. You bet. See ya.

• 1:20:43Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean, and they'll get years and years of use out of

• 1:21:27Steven Rinella?

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• 1:21:33Speaker 06

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• 1:22:04Steven Rinella?

  Phil, we're a little over time here, but I wonder-

• 1:22:09Speaker 07

  Are you guys okay? I mean, yeah, we're over time.

• 1:22:11Steven Rinella?

  I don't have-

• 1:22:11Speaker 07

  Do we still have a segment left?

• 1:22:14Steven Rinella?

  Corey crossed that one out. I think we're going to keep that one in the-

• 1:22:17Speaker 07

  We can rip through it quickly.

• 1:22:18Steven Rinella?

  Let's rip through it.

• 1:22:19Speaker 07

  If we're having fun.

• 1:22:20Steven Rinella?

  Are you guys busy?

• 1:22:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, let's do it. Well, I mean, I just need to have to get some lunch in me before whatever is happening at 1. Oh, sure. This will be fast, I think, right?

• 1:22:28Steven Rinella?

  Do you have a jingle?

• 1:22:29Speaker 07

  I do have a jingle.

• 1:22:29Steven Rinella?

  You should have led with that. We wouldn't have even questioned skipping the segment.

• 1:22:33Speaker 07

  Okay, let's hit it. Well, do you want to say the name of the segment first?

• 1:22:36Steven Rinella?

  The segment is two truths and a lie.

• 1:22:58Speaker 05

  You know, Cal must be really having a great time because before the show started, he said, he told you he was gonna give you five minutes of his time. And here we are, an hour.

• 1:23:08Speaker 06

  He's a company man.

• 1:23:09Speaker 05

  Twenty minutes into it.

• 1:23:09Speaker 06

  So much so that he didn't even prepare for this.

• 1:23:11Speaker 05

  He's a company man, through the truth.

• 1:23:13Speaker 07

  I am having a great time, but I was also told like, these are the things that you're here for. And we didn't, we didn't get to them. So I was, I'm confused. Ever? Well, one of the things was supposed to be two truths and a lie.

• 1:23:26Speaker 05

  Oh, okay, great.

• 1:23:27Speaker 07

  That's what Corey told me.

• 1:23:28Speaker 05

  Well, let's play.

• 1:23:28Speaker 06

  You are, you are prepared for it.

• 1:23:30Speaker 05

  For this fun new segment, we're gonna go around the room and each tell two truths and a lie. Each tell two truths and a lie about ourselves, Meat Eater Edition, while the other two hosts try and figure out which one is a lie. And this week, we have a twist. It's gonna be the other three hosts because Cal is still here. Yannis, would you like to lead us off here?

• 1:23:50Speaker 06

  I sure can. Mine are, it's very simple. I didn't have anything prepared an hour ago, or two hours ago, and Corey gave me this idea. It's just to give you guys, uh, some scores of some, uh, animals that I've killed. And figure out which one is true.

• 1:24:03Speaker 05

  Ooh.

• 1:24:04Speaker 06

  Which two are true and which one is a lie? So my biggest whitetail buck scores 137 inches. My biggest bull elk scores 317 inches. And my biggest mule deer buck scores 195 inches. Which one is a lie?

• 1:24:27Speaker 07

  The elk. Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on the elk.

• 1:24:30Speaker 05

  I'm gonna say the mule deer.

• 1:24:33Speaker 06

  These boys are correct. My biggest bull elk is around 305 inches. I have killed a 137 inch whitetail in Nebraska with our buddy Brody Henderson. Um, I almost felt bad for a quick moment when I shot that buck, but it was one of those instances that someone had to do some shooting. And I was really good at shooting. And, uh, my biggest mule deer buck I actually killed, uh, with our buddy Cali Ann here, and it scores roughly 195.

• 1:25:02Speaker 07

  That was the most excited I've ever seen Yannis be, after he pulled the trigger.

• 1:25:06Speaker 05

  Fantastic.

• 1:25:07Speaker 07

  He was sprinting erratically across the mountainside.

• 1:25:11Speaker 06

  I like to make sure they're dead, Cal.

• 1:25:14Speaker 07

  But it was without properly knowing where the buck ended up. He was that excited. He was like off this side of the mountain and over there and just like bird dogging around. It was cute as a button back, back when we were all younger.

• 1:25:27Speaker 06

  He had extra points, you know, it was one of those kinds of deals where like you look at him and you go, Cal's like, what do you think about this one? And all I saw was a couple kickers and I'm like, oh yeah, buddy.

• 1:25:39Speaker 05

  Cal, do you have two truths and a lie prepared for us? Or should I move on to Seth?

• 1:25:45Speaker 07

  No, I can whip one out.

• 1:25:47Speaker 05

  All right.

• 1:25:48Speaker 07

  Uh, I, I do have to say that the other, there's a good quote, there's like, it was a one doe or two does on this slope. And I was like, you know, a good mule deer hunter would just keep staring at these does. And that buck's going to show up eventually did. So that was cool. Um, okay. I have

• 1:26:09Speaker 07

  bagged over time. A black bear, a mountain lion.

• 1:26:17Speaker 07

  And, uh, you know, a whitetail.

• 1:26:22Speaker 05

  So we had to pick one of those animals that you haven't bagged?

• 1:26:25Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:26:26Speaker 05

  I feel like, uh, because of our conversation yesterday, I know the answer.

• 1:26:31Speaker 06

  I'm gonna say mountain lion. I'm gonna say lion.

• 1:26:33Speaker 07

  Me too.

• 1:26:35Speaker 07

  Corey's not even talking. It's lion, lion, lion. Yeah, I haven't, haven't killed a mountain lion. Been on quite a few hunts and

• 1:26:41Speaker 05

  Two truths and a lie. Are you packing a lion tag this year in your pocket?

• 1:26:45Speaker 07

  Yeah, I always, I always buy them.

• 1:26:47Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:26:49Speaker 05

  Well, Seth?

• 1:26:50Speaker 06

  All right. Um, I've killed one book animal. Meaning it, it scored enough to hit the record books. I poked a cow elk in the butt with my gun barrel. And I killed a turkey in my crocs.

• 1:27:05Speaker 05

  It's not the turkey and the crocs.

• 1:27:07Speaker 06

  Hold on, the, the, when you poke the cow, this, I'm assuming she was still alive.

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, real live, wild, out there hunting, poked a cow in the ass.

• 1:27:17Speaker 05

  I'm gonna say number one, even though I don't remember what that is.

• 1:27:20Speaker 06

  You think that he has or has not killed a book animal?

• 1:27:24Speaker 05

  I think he hasn't killed a book animal.

• 1:27:25Speaker 07

  Because he's from Pennsylvania?

• 1:27:27Speaker 06

  No, because I think the, uh, the croc thing is true and the poking a cow with the gun barrel is oddly specific.

• 1:27:36Speaker 05

  But he could just be really good at this game.

• 1:27:37Speaker 06

  Hmm, uh huh, uh huh. I agree with you about the, the turkey, the croc, turkey in the crocs. Oh, buddy, has he killed a book animal? I think I would know about that if you did. So I'm gonna go with, say that Seth has not killed a, a, a Boone and Crockett book animal.

• 1:27:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, I've, I mean, Pope and Young antelope's pretty darn achievable.

• 1:28:03Speaker 07

  But I don't think he shot an antelope with your bow, have you? No. Yeah, we'll go with, um, the, the book, book critter.

• 1:28:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're right. Unfortunately, yeah, you're right.

• 1:28:16Speaker 06

  That's pretty cool that you've poked a cow in the butt.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, this past hunting season, I was doing, it was opening day of rifle and, uh, had a, a cow elk, um, come running past me and I just gave a little poke in the asses, went by it, so it didn't run me over.

• 1:28:33Speaker 07

  And you were dressed as a cow elk at the time?

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, smelled like one too.

• 1:28:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was gonna ask if you did it in a little bit of a motion of self-defense and it sounds like it, that was the case.

• 1:28:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just like, was just did it to keep it moving, you know? I thought it was just gonna stomp me in the dirt, but, yeah.

• 1:28:52Speaker 05

  Well.

• 1:28:53Speaker 06

  Randall?

• 1:28:53Speaker 05

  I'm doing a little improv, cause I feel like some of my clues, in fact, I know that Cal knows one of my clues is false, or it's true, it's true. So I'm gonna go with, uh,

• 1:29:07Speaker 05

  shot a deer with my pants at my ankles,

• 1:29:11Speaker 05

  caught a fish on a jug, or shot a deer with a pistol.

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  I'm gonna go with the pistol.

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  That's a lie.

• 1:29:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, caught a fish with the jug is just not very fun. So what would be the point of lying to people about that?

• 1:29:33Speaker 02

  He's from Ohio, so.

• 1:29:34Speaker 06

  Well, unless he's trying to fool you. That's the point. Yeah, but there's no money on the line.

• 1:29:44Speaker 06

  What was the first one?

• 1:29:45Speaker 05

  Shooting a deer with my pants at my ankles and underwear.

• 1:29:51Speaker 06

  Well, from our little, our time spent together in Mexico, I know that Randall is often in the field in that position. So that's, that's a high probability that you've done that. I'm gonna go with the pistol.

• 1:30:06Speaker 07

  Chats, Chats also saying pistol.

• 1:30:09Speaker 06

  I'm gonna go with pistol.

• 1:30:11Speaker 05

  Well, it's catching a fish on a jug.

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  Son of a gun!

• 1:30:15Speaker 05

  Yep, yep, yep. Shot my first deer with my pants around my ankles.

• 1:30:20Speaker 06

  Okay, and tell us about the deer that you shot with a pistol.

• 1:30:23Speaker 05

  See, I started with that as a lie, but then I remembered I had shot a deer with a pistol. Cause I, I'd shot it and it was still alive and I walked out to go drag it back to the truck and it was still alive. So I shot it with a pistol.

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  That doesn't count, shooting a deer with a pistol?

• 1:30:38Speaker 05

  Alright, two lies and a truth.

• 1:30:43Speaker 05

  And I was gonna go with eating iguana, but Cal fed me that iguana, so. Yeah. Sorry, gang. I guess I screwed that game up.

• 1:30:52Speaker 06

  No, it was good.

• 1:30:52Speaker 07

  It's still fun.

• 1:30:53Speaker 05

  Well, you said my one truth didn't count.

• 1:30:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think, yeah, it's a gray line. It's a gray area there.

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  I shot a deer with a pistol before too, but it was after hitting it with my pickup truck.

• 1:31:03Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:31:04Speaker 02

  So would that, that probably wouldn't count either.

• 1:31:06Speaker 07

  For those of you listening, if you have access to a bunch of iguana tails and hindquarters, Super Bowl's coming up and they make pretty awesome buffalo wings.

• 1:31:16Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:31:16Speaker 06

  Oh, hey, well, that was one of the questions I was gonna ask in the last listener feedback. Caleb asks, what's your favorite Super Bowl snacks to make with game meat?

• 1:31:26Speaker 05

  I enjoyed the Iguana. That same Super Bowl, you also made a giant chicken wing out of an elk shank.

• 1:31:33Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Speaker 05

  A buffalo chicken wing out of an elk shank.

• 1:31:36Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:31:36Speaker 05

  Quite tasty.

• 1:31:37Speaker 07

  Yeah, real tasty.

• 1:31:38Speaker 06

  Classic like red hot?

• 1:31:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, I did like a Frank's red hot wing, so I sous vide the leg.

• 1:31:43Speaker 06

  Uh huh.

• 1:31:44Speaker 07

  To where it was edible.

• 1:31:45Speaker 06

  Didn't have any Frank's red hot?

• 1:31:47Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:31:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:31:48Speaker 07

  No, and then dropped the whole thing in the deep fat fryer. Get her all crispy and then, you know, tumble it around with some butter and some Frank's red hot. Sounds good.

• 1:32:00Speaker 05

  That was real tasty. I'm a classic nachos guy. Like to get a big, uh, big package of elk burger. Little of the taco seasoning from the store, as cheap as you can find it. And, uh, spread out a big mess of tortilla chips. Little sour cream, cheese, hot sauce.

• 1:32:19Speaker 07

  It's crowd pleaser.

• 1:32:20Speaker 05

  Jalapenos, yeah.

• 1:32:21Speaker 06

  What do you do for cheese?

• 1:32:23Speaker 05

  Oh, just, uh, Western Family Fiesta Blend.

• 1:32:27Speaker 06

  I like it.

• 1:32:29Speaker 05

  In a large quantity.

• 1:32:31Speaker 06

  Why is it that the cheapest taco seasoning packets taste the best?

• 1:32:37Speaker 05

  Food science.

• 1:32:38Speaker 07

  MSG.

• 1:32:39Speaker 05

  Yeah. I think it's just MSG.

• 1:32:42Speaker 06

  I'll accept those answers.

• 1:32:43Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:43Speaker 06

  Uh, I'm a Rotel dip guy.

• 1:32:45Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:46Speaker 06

  You know, so I do a little, you know, it was nice thing about when you buy that giant chunk of Velveeta, that gets me three through, through, through, three Super Bowls.

• 1:32:55Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 1:32:56Speaker 06

  Um, it doesn't go bad. It's expensive stuff, you know, those bricks of food that don't go bad ever.

• 1:33:03Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 1:33:03Speaker 06

  But, uh, yeah, little Velveeta, uh, can of Rotel and then, you know, whatever, half pound, pound of, uh, also taco seasoned ground meat and, uh,

• 1:33:14Speaker 05

  Lovely.

• 1:33:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, I like to eat enough of that until it gives me.

• 1:33:18Speaker 07

  A little bit of a tummy ache.

• 1:33:19Speaker 05

  Now, are you, are you dipping like a Frito in there or a standard tortilla chip or what?

• 1:33:23Speaker 07

  Uh, usually tortilla chips.

• 1:33:25Speaker 05

  Hmm. Lovely.

• 1:33:27Speaker 06

  Um, if I have them squirrel hot legs.

• 1:33:30Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:33:31Speaker 06

  Hmm. Are, are always good. And then just your typical jalapeno popper.

• 1:33:36Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:33:37Speaker 06

  With whatever. I've done it with doves, ducks.

• 1:33:42Speaker 07

  You can pop anything.

• 1:33:43Speaker 06

  Yeah, anything.

• 1:33:44Speaker 05

  Lovely.

• 1:33:44Speaker 06

  Whitetail backstrap, whatever.

• 1:33:47Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:33:47Speaker 05

  Kuz deer backstrap. Phil, what do you got for us here?

• 1:33:50Speaker 06

  Uh, well, just first, Brian says he, he goes gator nuggets.

• 1:33:53Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:33:54Speaker 07

  Hmm. Oh.

• 1:33:55Speaker 06

  So those are pretty good.

• 1:33:55Speaker 05

  Nuggets of any kind are welcome.

• 1:33:57Speaker 06

  Yeah. Deer and dove poppers, that's what Chase, Chase likes.

• 1:34:00Speaker 07

  We did pheasant nuggets for Phil's kids last time we had to get together.

• 1:34:04Speaker 06

  That's right. Those were a big hit.

• 1:34:05Speaker 05

  Those are tasty.

• 1:34:06Speaker 06

  Yeah. Um, let's do one, uh, just wrap it up here. This is the longest episode of radio so far, boys.

• 1:34:12Speaker 05

  Nice work.

• 1:34:12Speaker 06

  Oh, we beat Steve.

• 1:34:13Speaker 05

  Nice work or bad work? I don't know.

• 1:34:17Speaker 06

  Uh, really quick, multiple questions about the, the gaming stream for conservation. I've been given pretty much, I've been given a green light. It's happening. I'm very excited, but I also don't want to half ass it. So, um, TBD on the date. I want to make sure that we can, even though I want to bullshit, um, and play video games, I also want to raise a lot of money.

• 1:34:35Speaker 07

  Do you have a BD on the game?

• 1:34:39Speaker 06

  Red Dead Redemption 2?

• 1:34:40Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:34:41Speaker 06

  Yes. You can, uh, you can, you can do all kinds of cowboy stuff and hunt, hunt animals in all kinds of ways. So.

• 1:34:47Speaker 07

  Nice.

• 1:34:48Speaker 06

  Go fishing.

• 1:34:49Speaker 05

  Sweet. Skunk Ape Customs.

• 1:34:52Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:34:52Speaker 05

  Really want to know what, what he's customing.

• 1:34:55Speaker 06

  I don't know. It's with a K, so it could be anything. Anyway, let's call it. That was great.

• 1:35:00Speaker 05

  Let's call it.

• 1:35:01Speaker 06

  Thanks for tuning in.

• 1:35:01Speaker 05

  Thanks for tuning in, everybody. This was delightful. We'll see you next week.

• 1:35:05Speaker 06

  Later.

• 1:35:05Speaker 05

  Oh, oh, before we wrap up, it is Steve's birthday next week. So we're going to have a very special birthday celebration for Steve. Live on Media Radio Live. You're not going to want to miss it. Steve's hosting. There might be some cake, there might be some singing, there might be a gift exchange, probably not the gifts, though.

• 1:35:23Speaker 06

  Okay, on that note, sorry, really quick, I'm stretching out this show. At the very top of the show, Randall, first of all, what, do you mind sharing what date your birthday is?

• 1:35:31Speaker 05

  October 3rd.

• 1:35:32Speaker 06

  Okay, Spencer's an SOB because he wished you a happy birthday at the beginning of the show and everyone was saying happy birthday to you, Randall.

• 1:35:39Speaker 05

  Everybody knows it's October 3rd.

• 1:35:42Speaker 06

  Everybody does?

• 1:35:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's the same day that the first Peanuts cartoon was published and it's one of the landmark days when the Berlin walks and came crashing down.

• 1:35:49Speaker 06

  All right, well, that'll do it for today's episode of Media to Radio.

• 1:35:53Steven Rinella?

  Thank you for tuning in.

• 1:36:04Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean and they'll get years and years of use out of

• 1:36:48Steven Rinella?

  a set. Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today.

• 1:36:54Speaker 06

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• 1:38:01Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.