Tech Billionaires & the Rural Poor: Two Sides of Trump’s MAGA Populism

The tech billionaires of Silicon Valley and the Midwestern rural poor wouldn’t seem to have much in common. But somehow many of them have united under the MAGA umbrella. Kara brings together two reporters who have written about the opposite sides of the MAGA coin to talk about the role of social media in fueling enragement, why tech billionaires and poor Americans are coalescing around issues like education, the press and more; and how to bridge the political divide. Her guests are: Beth Macy, a newspaper reporter for three decades and the author of five non-fiction books, including her most recent: Paper Girl: A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America. Jacob Silverman, an independent journalist with a focus on tech, political corruption and illicit finance. He’s written three books, including his most recent: Gilded Rage: Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  I said, "You're either going to have to do something about income inequality, or you're going to have to armor plate your Tesla." Those are your two choices. And I got the distinct impression they wanted to armor plate their Tesla.

• 0:22Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. I've been talking all year about the authoritarian, right-wing, Trumpian shift in American politics. My guests today are two journalists who've been writing about that shift from very different corners of the MAGA world. Beth Macy was a newspaper reporter for three decades and is the author of five nonfiction books, including the New York Times bestseller Dopesick about the opioid epidemic, and her most recent, called Paper Girl: A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America. It's a personal look at how rural America has gone through what's known as downward social mobility and become more politically divided, not just from the coasts, but internally

• 1:07Kara Swisher?

  as well. Jacob Silverman is an independent journalist with a focus on tech, political corruption, and illicit finance. He's written three books, one about cryptocurrency and one about social media, and now his most recent, Gilded Rage: Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley. It's about how tech billionaires, not just Elon Musk, are using populism to fashion the world in their own image. And that's a problem, as I talk about all the time. These are disparate groups they're writing about, one urban, rich, upper class, and the other rural, poor, and working class, but both have been radicalized under the MAGA umbrella. I wanted to talk to Beth and Jake about how each of these groups is faring in Trump's America and how they explain the overlap in their viewpoints on education, journalism,

• 1:52Kara Swisher?

  and more. But before we get to it, I'm interviewing Dara Kostumshahi, the CEO of Uber, and Chris Urmson, the CEO of Aurora, live onstage at the Hopkins Bloomberg Center in Washington, DC, on Monday, December 15. These are going to be two really sharp conversations about applied AI and autonomous vehicles. To register for free tickets, Google Hopkins and Kara Swisher. Stay with us.

• 2:23Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 3:07Speaker 01

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• 3:39Speaker 02

  I'm Anna Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Chloe Malle. We talk all about her taking on the top job at Vogue, finding her personal style, and her favorite lunch order in the iconic Conde Nast cafeteria. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

• 4:18Kara Swisher?

  Beth and Jacob, thanks for coming on.

• 4:20Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Pleasure.

• 4:22Kara Swisher?

  I love both your books. I think they're both amazing. And I know this seems like an unlikely pairing, but it's actually not in many ways. So Beth, in Paper Girl, you show how divisive politics have fractured your poor rural hometown. Jacob, in Gilderade, you reveal how political division has been fueled and funded by tech billionaires in Silicon Valley. So I want to start by crossing that class divide, because I think it's a lot closer than people realize. And those billionaires themselves have been radicalized in many ways. So Beth, how do you think Trump supporters in Urbana, Ohio, see the impact of tech on their lives? Because a lot of what you talk about is radicalization from online sources.

• 5:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think what I noticed was just almost no local news. And we know now that Trump won 90% of the counties that were living in news deserts, basically. And they mostly get their news from Facebook and national sites. Members of my family are not going to buy The New York Times or The Washington Post because it costs a lot. But they're happy to watch Newsmax and Fox, which comes with their cable package. And so what I saw is I started going home to see my mom, or as she was diagnosed with dementia in 2015, is just politics, national politics, intruding in our family gatherings

• 5:51Speaker 04

  in a way I had never seen before. And, you know, my brother unfriended me on Facebook because of, quote, "all the liberal shit you post." And I'm like, I post fact-check articles from The New York Times and Washington Post, some of which I wrote. And it really put a damper on our family relationships. And then I started also noticing in my hometown that was once heralded as an important stop on the Underground Railroad, that there were Confederate flags flying. This is a union stronghold in Ohio. And so the idea was just to go back home. I spent two years, I spent about a week each month, to try to figure out what had happened. And a lot of it really was the media environment, as well as...

• 6:36Speaker 04

  Sort of the decline of public education.

• 6:40Kara Swisher?

  So Jacob, how did tech billionaires think about best former classmates and family in middle America? Do they think of themselves as news purveyors? How do you think they think of their role there?

• 6:51Speaker 03

  I don't know if they necessarily recognize their own power and influence in terms of setting the news agenda. I mean, maybe they do by now. Certainly, someone like Musk is pretty much unrivaled, except by Trump, in being able to set the news cycle. But I think there is something interesting in how they are mingling in these same spaces that we're talking about, you know, especially on X, of course. And they are sharing in the same, sometimes conspiracy theories, or false narratives, or just wrong information, as the kind of people in Ohio that Beth is talking about, and in dialogue with them. And sometimes these people are overt, you know, Nazis or right wingers that we see Musk or others

• 7:31Speaker 03

  talking to on X, or sometimes they're people who are just gladly receiving that kind of information. But I think that that's a strange kind of flattening that's occurred, actually, is that the paranoid billionaires and, you know, your paranoid cousin are now kind of operating in the same epistemological and media space.

• 7:51Kara Swisher?

  Right, absolutely. It's interesting. Oxford University Press named rage bait the word of the year, which, of course, is really apt. And one of the things, I've written about this for decades, this problem, that they were sort of moving in and trying to abrogate their responsibility for media, and at the same time, you know, saying they're just platforms. That was always their excuse. When you think about this, Beth, with your brother unfriending you and things like that happening, could you stop it in any way? Was there any, you know, way to get through when you were in person? I know, I have the same experience with my mother. I was, she's more of a Fox News person, she's elderly, but one of the issues I had, as I had told this story in an interview with Hillary Clinton, and she called me and said, Hillary's at

• 8:33Kara Swisher?

  us again. And she was talking about her, whatever tribe she happens to be part of, right wing tribe. And I said, what did she say? And she started to repeat things that were actually my interview. Actually badly mangled in the in the right wing media space. And I said, no, no, that's not what she said. And then one of the things that was really astonishing is she listened to it and she called me back. She goes, OK, that's not what she said. But, you know, the emails and I like it moved on to the next media engagement. But what I was trying to get is, do they think, do they understand that they're being manipulated or not at all?

• 9:07Speaker 04

  I don't think so. I really don't. With my brother, I mean, he's not a huge consumer of news, but he lives in this rural, very red district. And when this happened with us, he had missed an invitation I'd sent him on Facebook to come see our kid in their senior musical. They were the lead, Nathan Detroit and Guys and Dolls. And their girlfriend was Adelaide. I was like, how can you miss this? Because he always came. And then he said that thing about, you know, all the liberal crap I post. And then we kind of didn't talk for a while. We never made a decision. We just didn't do it. And then, as I started going home to work on this book a couple of years ago, we just started spending

• 9:48Speaker 04

  time together. And we very carefully, because I interviewed a lot of experts about how to have these interviews and how to try to reconnect. And they all said, you have to go to who you are as people. What are the things in your family that you're proud of? And spend time without politics. And so I didn't tell him like I had done all this research. I just tried to do, I invited him to teach me how to fish again, because that was something we used to do together as kids. And we had just an incredible visit. And then, at one point, he said, well, what about Sasha? That's my non binary child, who's a musician and an activist. Does he still date girls? And I said, and I'm thinking, and he said it in such a kind tone, and I'm thinking, well, I didn't really think, I

• 10:33Speaker 04

  just reflexively mirrored back his tone. And I said, Yes, they are dating a young woman now. And I mess up the pronouns too. And he was, hmm. And he didn't know anybody, that there was no one in his world other than Sasha, who lives five states away. And then he started showing up for Sasha's performances. They're in a band now. And, you know, driving eight hours. And by the end of this two-year homegoing project, I mean, he was supposed to come today because they have a concert here tomorrow and the weather canceled it. But, you know, they're a Pamela Superfan now. And when he brings politics up, I just, I just don't go there.

• 11:17Kara Swisher?

  You don't go there?

• 11:17Speaker 04

  Anymore. I don't even try.

• 11:19Kara Swisher?

  And Jacob, when you think about the responsibility of being a media person, there is a certain responsibility that each of us understands, having been in the media, in terms of getting it right, in terms of correcting mistakes. When you talk to these, because especially Musk, who I think does understand it. I always thought he was trying to be the next Rupert Murdoch, which I said to him. Do you feel they have any sense of responsibility when, as you were doing this? Or just as they're moving especially into the media space so aggressively? Now, of course, it's the Ellison's trying to get control of CBS and CNN, et cetera.

• 11:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't think there's a strong sense of responsibility because, partly because among most tech elites, there's such an intolerance for critique or for admitting any mistake. I mean, someone like Marc Andreessen, who blocks me and probably and most other journalists at the drop of a hat.

• 12:12Kara Swisher?

  Me too.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  Does not think that journalists or anyone who's kind of a non-technical expert has any authority at all. And they're also coming in, I think, with such contempt for existing institutions, especially existing media institutions and the broad bulk of us journalists, that their conception of what's getting it right is a little bit different than ours, I think. Whenever you might point out some of these things, I think, to some of these people or people in tech in general, it's sort of like the conversation you're having with your mom. Like, there's always another talking point to jump. Rather than take responsibility for one's own actions or saying like, oh, I was wrong there, you know, it always becomes a what about something else?

• 12:55Speaker 03

  I even had a similar conversation with, I was at a book event in Wyoming in Jackson Hole. So it was a bit of like a mixed crowd politically. And I was on this panel where we were talking about the need to have sort of a shared set of facts that we at least all agree on like what is true. You know, we can disagree politically, but as long as we acknowledge some basis of reality. And then afterwards, someone comes up to me and she says, well, you're talking about so much Trump corruption, but Obama has been just as bad or Biden. And I said, well, they didn't accept billions of dollars worth of crypto when they were president, like it's not the same. And we had, and it just was clear out this person was coming at me with a different set of facts where they didn't believe the things that I was saying.

• 13:38Speaker 03

  And I don't know, as long as people can kind of retreat into that different set of facts, it's a huge problem.

• 13:44Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it is absolutely. Just so you're aware, Marc Andreessen was the most thirsty journalist hanging out person in the very beginning of the internet. I couldn't, I would be like, I can't have lunch with you today. Stop calling me. Stop texting me. And they're all like that. You saw the example of when there was just a mild criticism of David Sacks in New York Times, they all jumped on like as if you had just told them they were all pedophiles or something like that.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's an incredible sensitivity there.

• 14:10Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's an odd thing. So Beth, your book is a memoir and reported, which I think works really well. You grew up in relative poverty. You were a paper girl. Then you got the Pell Grant, which allowed you to go to college and eventually become a journalist and writer. My partner on my other podcast, Scott Galloway, got a similar kind of thing out of poverty. The trajectory is not an option for as many in Urbana, and it definitely doesn't pay the same amount. You were pointing out it paid for your entire college and now it's 30% or some smaller amount. Talk about how the path to escaping poverty has changed since you were a kid.

• 14:44Speaker 04

  Urbana, when I was growing up, it wasn't idyllic, but it had a thriving working and middle class and then a professional class. The schools were very good. I had great teachers. I was, you know, president of the band and I got a lot of experience, but I also had people, because my- Family often didn't have a reliable car or couldn't come and get me from practice. I relied on the kindness of my friend's parents a lot. I was like the original Eddie Haskell, you know, like I had one friend who would make me lunch every single day in high school. Her mom would. And that's what's missing today with the hollowing out of the middle class.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  There are no people for a poor kid like me to sort of look up to. So one of the things I did when I started researching the book was I cast about for a young me, a promising poor kid, to write about, you know, the decline in upward mobility. And so I profiled this young man named Silas James, who was every bit as smart as me. He was also the leader of the band and I loved that because that was such an important role for him. But he was homeless for his junior and senior year. His dad had died of an overdose. His mom had been in and out of prison on drug charges. You've got to remember, we're in the second and third generations of the opioid crisis now, something I've been writing about for 10 years.

• 16:08Speaker 04

  And he just had so many more strikes against him than I did. And so he gets not a Pell Grant, but he gets a full scholarship to a community college to become a welder. And but he doesn't have a way to get there and it ends up being an hour away from where he's then living at the time. And so during the course of this 10-month welding program, you watch him go through five clunker cars, four full-time jobs. He has to work full-time. I didn't, you know, I had work-study jobs. And so much family drama and trauma bringing him down that he just barely makes it, but he does.

• 16:48Speaker 04

  And he's now raising his younger siblings who got removed from his mother's care. And I just don't think that's a situation I could have handled. I think you have to be really, really special to make it in this day and age.

• 17:02Kara Swisher?

  Right, it's a downward social mobility rather than an upward one, or one that's pulling you back, right, where there's no aid to do so. Jacob, in your book, you write about the trajectory of tech. Let's talk about them, the tech billionaires. Peter Thiel, David Sacks, Elon Musk, for example, three members of the so-called PayPal mafia. They all are from South Africa. Talk about their backgrounds and what influenced them, influenced especially the authoritarian vision that Thiel, I think, has been promoting since he was in college and he founded the Stanford Review. And he and Sacks, you know, were so mobbed up there during that time period. So it was a really,

• 17:43Kara Swisher?

  it's an unusual developmental pair, for example. But talk about their background and how that formed them.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Sure. I mean, well, all three of these people, Musk, Sacks, and Thiel came, of course, from either apartheid South Africa, or Thiel spent time in southwestern Africa, which became Namibia, dominated by apartheid South Africa at the time. But, you know, patriarchal, officially racist, hierarchical societies where were white men were the designated elites. And I think Thiel and Sacks's activities at Stanford show that they were dyed-in-the-wool political animals from early on. I mean, to this day, I think Thiel still hires people who come up through the Stanford Review, which he founded, of course. And for someone who complains a lot about universities and as sort of places of corruption, he spends a lot of time there and sort of engaging with them and still hiring people, like I said, from Stanford.

• 18:34Speaker 03

  So I think the the kind of place that we see them occupying now is certainly one of immense power and influence, but it's one in some sense that they've been preparing for since they were in college. Musk feels in some ways more like, you know, an instrument or if not quite, someone they've been able to direct a little bit. Or, you know, with his more recent radicalization and discovery of electoral politics. But he is certainly not someone, I mean, I think he's someone who felt like an elite like they did, but who didn't feel as interested in getting involved in the muck of politics and still maybe, until maybe politics started affecting him, especially during the pandemic.

• 19:13Kara Swisher?

  That's right when he got radicalized, actually, I would say. One of the things they talk about, as you reference education, is one of those areas where Urbana and Silicon Valley seem to agree, maybe for different reasons. Beth, you wrote about homeschooling and no schooling trend in Urbana, which I think was really critical. I was sort of struck by what was happening there, speaking of different realities, right? You're talking about. And Jacob, you talked about the tech billionaires disdain for public schools and write about their lobbying for charter schools. It's not just K through 12. Both MAGA and tech bros are also pushing the idea that college isn't worth it. Beth, talk a little bit about the public and higher education has become one of the scapegoats of the movement and who is benefiting versus being hurt by this? Because schooling is

• 19:57Kara Swisher?

  what brought you to where you are, obviously. It's not well regarded now, correct, in these areas?

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Absolutely. One of the most disturbing trends I've found was absenteeism, both in the workplace and in schools, particularly after COVID. So, one of the people I checked in with every time I went in, I'd spend a day shadowing the school truancy officer, who put like 115,000 miles on her car, driving kids from all ends of the county to the schools. And as the public schools have deteriorated in Urbana, the state legislature became increasingly red and they deregulated homeschooling. So, as of a year and a half ago, a parent who wants to homeschool no longer has to have their curriculum signed off by a retired teacher

• 20:46Speaker 04

  or an education expert. So, people started homeschooling at a bigger rate. And of course, the public schools left suffer because the money doesn't go to the school. The parents who are maybe a little more switched on educationally started open enrolling their kids elsewhere to even more rural schools, which had higher test scores. But the unintended consequence of the deregulation of homeschooling was this shocking thing that always came up when I was with the truancy officer, and that was the number of people who weren't sending their kids to school because they weren't mentally well enough to get up in the morning, go to work, send their kids to school. And when the truancy officer began

• 21:30Speaker 04

  to knock at their door and threaten charges, they would then pull them out and say they were homeschooling.

• 21:36Kara Swisher?

  So, no school?

• 21:38Speaker 04

  No school. And one woman even handed her a slip. It had gone from this big portfolio you had to show of how well you were teaching your kid to a simple one pager. And one person even handed her a note, on a post-it note, saying, "I'm homeschooling now." There was a girl that showed up dead in West Virginia because of that. And that's, of course, the fear that with no eyes on what's happening with these children, what's going to happen to them?

• 22:04Kara Swisher?

  And where does that come from? The idea that school is not, both K through 12 and college? That has happened rather quickly because college was the reach, right?

• 22:15Speaker 04

  Right, right. And there's this idea that if you do send your kid to college, they're just going to get liberal and they're not going to come home and live in Urbana anymore. And you're not going to be able to do Thanksgiving anymore and all that kind of stuff. And I think one of the places for genuine reform would be to start underscoring the need for trades and community college certifications. I think that's a really important thing that we should be focusing on now because it was just so hard for Silas to get there. And he needed those social supports. He needed transportation.

• 22:53Kara Swisher?

  Right, all around him, right.

• 22:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, he needed everything. And he did it by the skin of his teeth. But, you know, he could have done that welding program in high school, but there weren't enough slots at the trade technical school that was in the county for him to do that. So I think we sort of made trades a stepchild. At the same time, we told people that, you know, college education is absolutely necessary with technology happening, but we made it so unaffordable for everybody.

• 23:22Kara Swisher?

  So Jacob, where does the disdain for college come from? You know, they're all incredibly well-colleged, I would say. Each of them operate in those systems but are astonishingly disdainful.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, they don't, they use the line, perhaps that college is too expensive, but the money doesn't really matter to them, or the fact that a lot of people are being put into debt. I think it's more that they, a lot of them see them as these kind of left-wing woke institutions. You've heard people like Bill Ackman or Elon Musk talk about how basically they think schools are turning their kids into left-wingers who hate them, or, you know, communists in the case, I think, of Bill Ackman's daughter, or-

• 24:02Kara Swisher?

  Trans.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that, the idea that, you know, gender fluidity and sort of what they would call trans ideology somehow emanates from these kinds of institutions. I think that's what also makes them partners with MAGA politically, is that they share a lot of the same reactionary and culture warrior impulses. And that can be manifested in colleges and institutions. And of course, we're seeing things like, not only just the Thiel Fellowship, which has been around for a while, but now Palantir advertising at colleges and encouraging kids to basically drop out and sign up with Palantir.

• 24:36Kara Swisher?

  Many of the people who've gotten most radicalized have trans kids, which is really, you know-

• 24:41Speaker 03

  That is interesting.

• 24:42Kara Swisher?

  I'm like, one of them I was so surprised by, and I, then I saw him posting about his trans kid, and I wrote him, I said, "You're a terrible parent. Like, you're a terrible, horrible, to do this publicly."

• 24:54Speaker 03

  With Musk, it's so visible.

• 24:55Kara Swisher?

  You know, he's just mimicking Musk. Yes, well, he's, well, it's not even, I mean, he's just the worst. So, one of the things, Jacob, you called Dems a feckless opponent, right, that Trump had an easy time presenting himself as a, quote, "populist savior for a benighted working class abandoned by the Democratic elites." And that was partially because he was backed by allies in tech and media, that he had, Beth writes, quote, "The consummate showman connected most voters into thinking he cared. I blame Trump and his billionaire enablers, not them." Playing devil's advocate here, you both seem to portray the working class as having little agency, perhaps, as being morally ignorant. Is there some way to call out the tech influence in MAGA without falling into that trap? Beth, you start, and then Jacob.

• 25:42Kara Swisher?

  Or you might disagree with me.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  Well, um, I think they owe the nation something for what they've done. And I would love to hear Jacob's points on what he thinks the PayPal mafia, et cetera, actually owes us, you know, for, my editor doesn't like me to use the word "brainwashing", but I think that's exactly what's happened to a lot of people in this. When I see people turn from, um, uh, normal, educated people who maybe were on the left to spending four to seven hours a day watching Russian propaganda and being so eat up with anger.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  I spent time with an ex-boyfriend I hadn't seen in 38 years.

• 26:32Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, that was something.

• 26:32Speaker 04

  It was kind of a reporting stunt at the beginning, the idea like, who does that? Who interviews their ex-boyfriend? But to watch him go into somebody I didn't even recognize was stunning. And that at the end of the book, because of his beliefs, he didn't have health insurance. He was okay with that. He said, "Oh, if I die at 76, okay, whatever, something's gonna get me." But he gets, uh, pneumonia and waits too long to go to the hospital, and then he dies.

• 27:01Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 27:01Speaker 04

  And when I interviewed his daughter several weeks, it's not in the book, but I interviewed her several weeks after his death, she said, "The internet killed my dad." And she's heartbroken. She's now lost both of her parents, she's 30 years old, has a child. And like, what, what do the PayPal mafia, and I'd love to ask Jacob this question, what do they owe people like Bill's daughter?

• 27:24Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:25Speaker 04

  Jacob? Rattlecalizing him.

• 27:28Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, you know, individuals are responsible for their own behavior, whether we're talking about, you know, everyday people in Ohio or MAGA voters, but that also means that, you know, class differences are real and that the people I'm talking about, like the billionaire platform owners, exert massive influence and also often massive unacknowledged influence. So one must tweet something like that COVID will be gone. On by the end of April of twenty twenty. Or basically, a lot of these people repeatedly engage in some form of covid denialism. That has a huge effect and that one that they refuse to recognize. And, you know, I see it also a lot with Musk and his, basically, his taking up of the great replacement theory.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  And essentially promoting or potentially inciting violence against migrants. I mean, he's now doing this internationally. He gave a speech to at a Tommy Robinson rally via video in September where he said, violence is coming to your door, whether you like it or not, and said it was coming from migrants. And told people to get ready. And, you know, this is stuff that I think if it were on the front page of papers decades ago, or, you know, we, I think we were talking about Musk as sort of a William Randolph Hearst type, perhaps. You know, it would be considered incitement to violence. You know, if a media mogul were portraying this on TV or on a newspaper headline many years ago. But now it's just part of their everyday behavior. And I think it is very disturbing that there isn't even a conversation about some kind of accountability there,

• 28:55Speaker 03

  or the fact that they are repeatedly and daily engaging in this kind of behavior with massive unacknowledged effects.

• 29:03Kara Swisher?

  Right now, I'm obsessed with chatbots and the effect on young people. I was talking to one of them and I've been interviewing all the parents whose kids have committed suicide. And they said, when are you gonna stop? And I said, how about never? I said, I'm gonna show people what you're doing because, and I, the point I was making to one of them was, Tylenol killed six people and they pulled all the drugs off the shelf. And you've, you're up to seven now, just, you know, like a month into this kind of thing. And so I feel like I'm not gonna stop. But one of the things that's, that's, to me, is where, is where the agency is. I think that's what I was trying to get at, Beth. And when you think about that and, and the agency that people have, it is propaganda.

• 29:45Kara Swisher?

  And you do see people's minds warped in that regard. Again, getting back to it, when you were interviewing all these people, did they feel manipulated? Or did they understand what propaganda was doing, given there was such a shift, say, of your boyfriend, for example? Did he, here's someone who you write about is educated. By the way, I have you beat, one of my ex-boyfriends became a neo-Nazi, but go ahead.

• 30:08Speaker 04

  Well, Bill was on his way there. The last thing he posted on X before he died was about the great replacement theory. But I'm thinking more along the lines of my friend, Joy, who was my first friend in kindergarten. She's black. She and our friend Betty, we were like the great trio. We still hang out. She's a Christian radio host. And I interviewed her several times. I took notes. I recorded with her permission. And, you know, she believes children are identifying as cats and taking litter boxes to school. She doesn't think, even though she's black, she doesn't think George Floyd was was killed by Derek Chauvin. And when I roll my eyes in conversation with my dear friend, who I've just made dinner

• 30:49Speaker 04

  for, and, you know, she she presided over my mom's funeral. That's how close we are. She says, I know. But how do we love each other beyond what we can't understand or agree with? And I thought that was a really profound question that I'm still grasping with. But she was very disappointed when the book came out. And she said, I didn't, I feel like you threw me under the bus. I didn't expect it to be in a national book, a national platform. I said, Well, Joy, you know, that's what I write. And I know I hurt her feelings, and I feel bad about that. But at some point, you have to be responsible for the things you have consumed and what you're putting out there. I mean, she's

• 31:28Speaker 04

  a media figure herself in her world. And that was news to her. Like, it's almost like, we need to go back and deprogram some of these folks.

• 31:57Kara Swisher?

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• 32:40Kara Swisher?

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• 33:02Kara Swisher?

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• 33:45Kara Swisher?

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• 34:15Kara Swisher?

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• 35:22Kara Swisher?

  Now, Jacob, the tech oligarchy seems to be fully in charge now. They've bought their way into this particular coin-operated president and recognized the need for involvement in politics. They had been politics-averse for a long time, the tech industry in general, but figured it out pretty quickly, largely through Thiel and Musk, I would say, and Sacks. There was Doge, of course, but one of the Starfakers' examples recently was the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's visit. Jacob, you wrote in The Nation after the dinner with the tech bros, "The authoritarian rulers of both the United States and Saudi Arabia were clearly relishing the media-friendly spectacle, distracting their home constituencies from the parless conditions they're facing." Conservative pundit Scott Jennings told me that Trump was just trying to get the Saudis

• 36:06Kara Swisher?

  to sign a Middle East peace deal. I'm guessing you don't buy that, neither do I. What do you think is really at stake in what's happening here? Obviously, the Trump family has benefited enormously from the Saudis, and the Silicon Valley people also went there looking for money. Talk a little bit about this sort of iron triangle of investment, repression, and an access situation.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  Well, it is certainly an iron triangle with Saudi at the head of it, but also involves the UAE and Qatar and basically all of these authoritarian countries from the Middle East, these dictatorships and their sovereign wealth funds, funding Silicon Valley for years and being this essential source of cash now, especially in the AI bubble and for people like Musk whenever he needs a new round for XAI to raise billions and billions of dollars. And that is something that I think changed during the sort of zero interest rate era, when you started having companies like Uber raise multi-billion dollar rounds from Saudi Arabia. It really changed the financing of tech in a way that perhaps hadn't existed before.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  And there's a quote in my book that I mentioned from Ben Horowitz, the venture capitalist, where he was at one of these Saudi business summits a few years ago. And he said Saudi Arabia also has a founder, but you call him your highness. And it was just sort of acknowledging this kinship, founder being the most hallowed word probably in Silicon Valley culture. But I think it also reflects that increasingly these are authoritarians on both sides, people who aren't very fond of democracy, CEOs or founders or venture capitalists who kind of rule by fiat, just like their funders in Saudi Arabia do. And I think it reflects a style of doing business. I also think it reflects the fact that tech companies are increasingly important geopolitical

• 37:55Speaker 03

  and even national security actors in ways that aren't always regulated or recognized.

• 38:01Kara Swisher?

  So Beth, I was looking at some old drawings, Thomas Nash and others, like the fat cat idea, which I think was very popular among working class, right? This idea that there's these fat cats taking things. Do they see it that way or not making the links at all?

• 38:17Speaker 04

  Among the people I talked to in Urbana, some did. I mean, there is a small stable of Democrats there that really work hard to search out fact-based news. Their state's newsroom has a really great operation called Ohio Capital Journal and things of that nature. But for the most part, the people I saw who were deeply down the rabbit holes were looking for community where their community no longer existed.

• 38:48Kara Swisher?

  Correct, yeah.

• 38:49Speaker 04

  And so like, for instance, our high school reunion planner, sweet woman, you know, she was just... Dying to convince me that, you know, the vaccine was bad, bad move that you got one. The then President Biden was dead and that was an actor playing him with a mask. And she would send me proof and she said, you've been red pilled now. I've educated you. And like, she was just breathless and I couldn't get a word in. And that just blew me away. And some weeks I would rent an Airbnb for a week and some weeks by day four, I would be so exhausted because it was so different than the, the blue bubble I live in here in Virginia, that I would go home a couple of days early because it, it was also just painful.

• 39:34Speaker 04

  Like what has happened? These, the, the community is crumbling. The kids aren't being taken care of. There was a smear campaign for the director of the youth center who was helping the kids that dropped out because he was gay. And, um, you know, his funding got taken away and he was standing up to the power structure and, and it, it was just a really painful thing to see.

• 39:59Kara Swisher?

  They don't see that linkage when you were interviewing anybody, that the power structure is in it for themselves and not like, which is a sort of an old American trope, right? The idea of fat cats and, you know?

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Exactly. That, when the mayor said, uh, I don't, I don't think everybody needs to go to college. I was showing him how Urbana's college going rate is only 16%, whereas in the nation it's 37 and among more rural towns it's 21. And he said, well, I went to college and got a religion degree, but I didn't need it. Did I need it? And I said, well, no, you inherited your dad's insurance business. And I just, the, the, the idea of, of a factory town that was sort of, you know, bad and good run by a single old man Grimes who owned the dominant airplane like factory. But he would give like, The best students that were graduating scholarships to Ohio State University employees

• 40:54Speaker 04

  got free haircuts. I just didn't see any of that looking out for the people who had been left behind. And among the professional class that's there and the leadership class, they weren't even willing to look at it. And none of it was ever in the news, in the newspaper. And, and at the end, as somebody says in the book, what you have left is the country club set and the ghetto set. Those were his words. And neither knows what's going on with the other. But that was really true.

• 41:26Kara Swisher?

  But the, the bottom set doesn't, seems to be liking the ruling class, correct? Which is a shift.

• 41:33Speaker 04

  Or just not paying in attention to it because they're struggling so hard to just survive.

• 41:38Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. And it's clear that real estates are facing a brain drain that creates more anger and more class resentment.

• 41:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. The, the thing that really shocked me was the number of people who weren't showing up for work. And so I went to one job fair and I interviewed every, I just went around, it was at the Fairgrounds building and I went around talking to every manager and I, finally I asked, because they were all hard up for employees and I said, because Urbana is rare and that is, has retained, it's a lot, a good stable of manufacturing. It's not all grimes now. It's, it's pretty diversified, which is cool. But not one single employer can get people to show up for work. And I asked one, I said, well, if you were to hire 10 people today, how many would still be there in six months? And he said, one. And we'd still probably have an attendance issue with that person. And that, that's just a

• 42:27Speaker 04

  story that's not being told.

• 42:30Kara Swisher?

  Right. Of people not showing up. So the political divide is not just internally fracturing communities. As you're talking about, people are self segregating, right? Moving to places that match their politics. And tech bros are proposing self-contained alternative communities. Jacob, you wrote about this. I'm thinking of Balaji Srinivasan's network state idea. The project, California Forever is trying to launch in Solano County, California. And speaking of factory towns, Elon's company town outside of Austin, he's not quite as kind as Mr. Bryant's. There's also attempts to offshore some less than legal stuff in places like Honduras. There's also that happening. And of course, the ultimate, I'm going to Mars. You know, and I'm always like, please leave soon. That would be great. Fantastic. We'll pay for the gas.

• 43:13Kara Swisher?

  We'll pay for the gas, whatever you need. But talk about these exit efforts to try to then create their own towns.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. What's so astonishing about some of this stuff is that they are so coddled and do live in their own, you know, gated off worlds, but that has become not enough for some of them. And people like Peter Thiel or some of the other folks for Time Out in recent years seem to pursue two avenues, which is one is electoral politics or pouring their money behind Trump and Republicans, but also simultaneously pursuing exit, which is a specific word that Thiel has used. And it's about exiting society. It's about exiting your money to places where it can't be governed, whether it's Switzerland or some Caribbean destination or now new countries, charter cities especially.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  Thiel famously funded the seasteading project that never really got off the ground to create these floating cities. And he wrote an essay saying he wanted to fund the technology that enables freedom. And so for them, you know, they think that somehow true freedom, which they have not yet acquired, can only be found by exiting the normal strictures of society. And that might be in a little corporate charter city state in Honduras on the island of Rotorua, as they have now in Prospera, or it might be in Solano County or in Greenland, if Trump succeeds in acquiring that, or indeed off planet. But this is something that a lot of money, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in some cases,

• 44:43Speaker 03

  is being devoted to these kinds of projects. And I think it also reflects kind of the politics we see at home and what we see, for example, in San Francisco, which I've written about a bit too, is just that they're, they no longer are interested in improving or rescuing urban spaces. They see them as just gone and they have real contempt for average people and especially down and out people who are living rough on San Francisco streets. And that only contributes to this idea that, you know, they want to flee, they want to exit and have total kind of corporate control over where they live.

• 45:13Kara Swisher?

  Right. So when you think about that, about the idea of escape and getting out, how do you create a town where if you can't, like the people of your town can't exit, there is no exit?

• 45:25Speaker 04

  No, and the and the people left behind have been brainwashed. And so, I mean, I want to flip this back to you guys. Like, what do the Zuckerbones and Andreessen's owe the nation? What can we do that might ameliorate the power and this never before seen ability to stifle, if not shut down, our democracy entirely? I mean, I write a bit about the Communications Decency Act Right. in the book, and, you know, people like Ro Khanna have tried to had a federal policy to tax digital corporations, but that didn't go anywhere. And, you know, I write about this fifth generation newspaper owner in Iowa,

• 46:10Speaker 04

  who actually gets a meeting with a Facebook executive, and he's trying to start this nonprofit in Iowa that would help keep the papers alive, to help keep democracy, you know, which was once, newspapers were once the democracy's immune system. And so he's begging them for a grant, and they say no initially. And he says, "Look, when the revolution starts and we have a civil war in this country, and someone's dragging you and your family out of your Silicon Valley homes, before the knife goes into you, you're going to think, maybe I could have stopped this." Right. Which is such a trenchant quote, right? Yeah, yeah, wow, okay. So eventually, Facebook gives him $150,000, but it's not enough. His 90-year-old mother remortgages the home, and they still have to sell the business at a huge loss. Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 04

  So what are some things like Khanna's trying to do that you think could actually work to help us build back these healthier information ecosystems?

• 47:05Speaker 03

  One phrase I keep thinking about, when, especially when you're time out, people bringing brainwash essentially, is "false populism." I mean, I think that is kind of one of the scourges of our age, and it's what brought us Trump, and it's what brings us, you know, Elon Musk is somehow a savior of the people, or someone who is maybe not motivated by money and wants to help people via

• 47:24Speaker 04

  Well, that's

• 47:25Speaker 03

  Doja or whatever else, you know? It's all nonsense, it's BS, but part of the problem is we don't have a genuine populism, you know, and this is where I do critique the Democratic Party, that

• 47:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  there isn't a genuine populist alternative to I mean, they're individual figures who might be part of such a movement, but that but there's not a populist alternative that seeks to put a check on billionaire power, that seeks to really tax them, break up companies, and actually like, you know, say that this is about class and this is about the billionaires eating our lunch and not wanting to give people healthcare or not wanting people like the folks who retired on Ohio to be able to get to work because they just don't care about them.

• 48:02Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 48:03Speaker 03

  And in the absence of that alternative, which could be articulated through a better media ecosystem, among other means, in the absence of that, that's where, you know, Trump and the right wing billionaires really flourish is because they, while they're not necessarily offering a better solution, they are giving voice to that anger.

• 48:21Kara Swisher?

  To that rage.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  To that rage and that confusion that I think a lot of people feel and that draws them to the right. So there needs to be some liberal left challenge that that really gives people a positive program, I think.

• 48:33Kara Swisher?

  Well, one of the, one of the issues, I'm just going to say briefly, is you imagine they care, Beth, they don't. Like, I've tried to get this message through. You imagine, like, Andreessen is possibly the worst person I know in Silicon Valley as a person, a broken, angry, troubled person in desperate need of mental health, help. Same thing with Elon, broken. Using drugs. Using drugs. If they were poor, they'd be on the streets. Let's just, you know what I mean, this kind of thing. And so I think one of the problems is that we imagine they care, right? Like, and you have to get that out of your head. You know, who was delivering a gold statue to Trump? Tim Cook, the last person I thought would do that, not the last, but, you know, when

• 49:16Kara Swisher?

  they were standing there at the inauguration, one after the next, in front of the elected officials, in front of the cabinet officials, that was, it was game over and Trump knew it, right? That's, to me, they were standing there because they wanted things. And were it a Kamala Harris administration, they would pretend to be Democrat, you know what I mean? They don't have any values whatsoever. And they really don't like people. I think that's ultimately at the heart of it.

• 49:43Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 49:58Speaker 05

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• 51:09Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher, and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 51:45Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Ested from America Actually at vox.com. We know that you have big questions about the world, and so do we. At Vox, we focus on covering the things that matter in your life and the things that make you curious, whether that's the big politics questions of the day, climate solutions that might actually work, or hopeful news in cancer or Alzheimer's research. We believe that journalism made for the everyday curious person can make a difference in making a better world. And if that sounds like something you want to be a part of, Vox now has a brand new app, and it brings all of our journalism together in one place. Go to vox.com/app to download today.

• 52:28Kara Swisher?

  Let me talk about the overlap between your two books is Ohio itself. Jacob, your former boss Vivek Ramaswamy is running for governor there. And of course, there's an Ohio native and Silicon Valley insider, Vice President J.D. Vance. I actually, I like to use Rachel Maddow's term, he's Peter Thiel's failed intern. He was terrible at tech. Let me just tell you, a squirrel could have made money during the period he was in tech, and he lost money. That's all I'm going to say. I spent time with him during that period when he hated Trump. But do you think either one of them can bridge the gap between the two worlds, poor and middle-class American tech billionaires, the way Donald Trump has been able to? And is there an alternative on the Democratic side?

• 53:09Kara Swisher?

  Beth, you go first, and then talk a little bit about Vance, and then Jacob, talk a little bit about Vivek.

• 53:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, Vance grew up an hour south of me. You know, he's 20 years younger than me, and had it really rough, and wrote this book that, upon first read, I thought was a decent story of a first-generation college student. I related to some of it. And, you know, he was helped by the GI Bill and all this kind of stuff. And at one point calls Trump "cultural heroin." And we've seen him flip. Now, in Hillbilly Elegy, I was reading that as I was starting to report on Appalachian, what had happened with the opioid crisis, and going down there and interviewing activists. And they just completely called him out on the fact that there is no systemic

• 53:58Speaker 04

  analysis of what happened with centuries of out of state coal companies going in and taking advantage and then the jobs going away and the pills coming in, the pill mills coming into the exact same places that the jobs went away. He's blaming the poor for their poverty and saying, well, I got out, everybody should be able to get out. And then to see him emerge in Springfield, Ohio, calling out the cats and the dogs with the Haitians, to then see people like my ex-boyfriend emerge as the leader of this anti-Haitian influx and just to be totally under the spell of this guy Vance, who was, I mean, wasn't one

• 54:40Speaker 04

  of his jobs when he went back to Ohio, he was going to fix the opioid crisis?

• 54:44Kara Swisher?

  He was.

• 54:44Speaker 04

  He didn't do anything. He did zip and is still doing zip and still trying to pull the ladder that helped him climb out of poverty for the rest of us.

• 54:55Kara Swisher?

  What about Vivek, Jacob?

• 54:58Speaker 03

  So I worked for what ended up being a pretty short stint at Vivek's company called Royvent as a ghostwriter essentially. And, you know, this is someone who at the time was not very overtly political necessarily. I mean, he did not strike me as a liberal or a leftist, but he hadn't started going on Fox News or Tucker Carlson's show when it was on Fox News still, or writing op-eds for the Wall Street Journal. But what he clearly was, was massively ambitious. I mean, it just radiated from him. And this was sort of interesting for me as a writer and journalist and someone interested in this world of tech and finance elites to kind of observe that up close. So, you know, when he eventually

• 55:41Speaker 03

  came out as this basically frothing right-winger, I think it was actually a surprise to some people around him. You know, I talked a little bit, I never end up publishing anything about this, but I talked to someone who worked at one of his companies who was trans and she transitioned and received a

• 56:00Speaker 03

  Gender-affirming care via health insurance from Vivek's company. And at the same time, he's talking about how there are only two genders. And I think one thing that showed to me was incredible opportunism, you know, that maybe he does actually believe that, but this is someone who is very power-hungry and very determined to get it. And like a lot of successful politicians of our age, which I think he will be in one form or another, he's going to be around for a long time, he'll kind of say anything to get there.

• 56:28Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, he's trending left again, to be noticed.

• 56:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know if he'll win in Ohio, but, you know, he is malleable. He is very smart. We'll be dealing with him for decades.

• 56:38Kara Swisher?

  Really? I don't know. I think he's repellent to voters, as I think Vance is, actually.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  I mean, he does have the sort of annoying debate kid affect, as I say.

• 56:45Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I've had a lot of rounds with him. But, Beth, speaking of power, you recently announced you're running for Congress in Virginia. A local reporter from the Cardinal News described your campaign launch as the most direct assault on an incumbent he'd heard in a long time. So talk about why you're doing this. I think, you know, I had to thought about running for office at one point because I was like, I'm tired of just saying they suck.

• 57:06Speaker 04

  Come on, let's do it.

• 57:07Kara Swisher?

  I know. They have a good mayor in San Francisco. I was for mayor of San Francisco. But I was tired of the tech bros beating up on a city I love, right? And having no solutions. That was one of the impetuses. So talk about why you've done this and what your goal is as a politician.

• 57:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm running for Congress in the 6th district, which is an R-plus-15 Cook Report. It's a very red district. There is a strong chance that we will be redistricted. You know, the Virginia legislature is taking that up now in response to what's happened in Texas and elsewhere. And so that might change. It might become a more dumb-leaning district. But the decision to run really grew out of the end of my book. Now, when I swear to God, when I finished this book, I had no intention ever of running for office, not on my bingo card. I thought I would write maybe one or two more books. I was going to become a master gardener with my buddy Lon and be very happy. And at the end of the book, Geraldine Brooks called

• 58:09Speaker 04

  it, it's more than a memoir, it's a manifesto. And I guess I sort of like take a tonal change at the end, because it's right after the election. I just watched, you know, the ex-boyfriend die, all these things happening, all these people I love, their services being cut. I mean, my own child is on Medicaid, my professional musician kid. And I say in the book that we should run better people for office. And I start participating in these rallies outside of our incumbent Republican congressman's office every Monday. And people start asking me to run. It's very flattering, of course, but they're pointing out that you have to

• 58:48Speaker 04

  do this for your kids. And, you know, I took the bait. And I'm doing it. I'm not a politician. I'm not a politician. I'm not a politician. And what I said in my launch was that I'm not going to be like automatically for any party or any people. I want to go out and I want to listen to people. I want to find out what their concerns are. This what's happening to Medicaid and what's happening to healthcare is just so wrong. I mean, I've spent over a decade reporting on the opioid crisis. We are going to go back 20 years if these Medicaid cuts really take place. 350,000 Virginians alone are going to lose their Medicaid. And that has been the main way that men who are disproportionately dying

• 59:31Speaker 04

  of death of despair have been able to finally get treatment, just in recent years. So I'm really stressing that. I'm out listening in these rural communities, not in Ohio, but in Virginia. I'm going up and down the Shenandoah and Roanoke Valleys, talking to people. And they're really upset. There's a lot of rage on both sides. And a lot of concerns about affordability. You know, my husband and I, we were a school teacher and a newspaper reporter. We managed to buy our first house at the age of 30. Kids today can't buy their first house until they're 40. They're not even kids. The price of groceries.

• 1:00:08Kara Swisher?

  Wow, you do sound like a politician.

• 1:00:10Speaker 04

  Well, I'm worked up about it. And, you know, and I'm It's a lot harder than being somebody out talking about a book. I will tell you that. I'm not getting like rave reviews and please sign your book for me. It's, it's, it's like a combat experience.

• 1:00:26Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 1:00:27Speaker 04

  But I'm willing to meet with people, unlike our congressman, to really learn what's happening. And, you know, I think Bernie and the economic populism way is, you know, that's what worked. I mean, Abigail Spanberger was more centrist than Bernie, but focusing on affordability and then getting these kleptocrats, these billionaires to pay their fair share. We've got to figure out a way to do that. I mean, it's just, it's just criminal and we just accept it like it's just business as usual.

• 1:01:01Kara Swisher?

  Well, not everyone does.

• 1:01:02Speaker 04

  And we have no guardrails.

• 1:01:04Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:04Speaker 04

  Congress has no guardrails, no checks on the president now. We've got to take back the house.

• 1:01:09Kara Swisher?

  Okay. So Jacob, at the end of your book, I like your spiel. It's excellent. It's excellent.

• 1:01:14Speaker 04

  I'm working on it.

• 1:01:15Kara Swisher?

  Okay. At the end of your book, you say, we're living in Elon's world, though, this speaking of kleptocrats. But his influence seems to have declined, although he seems to be back again in some fashion. Who do you think will step into that role and a likelihood to undo damage? If you had to go up five years, what would the landscape look for these billionaires? And I, I say this because I think they're in quite a bit of trouble. I think there's a lot of anger towards them. It's building. Years ago, when I was worried about income inequality, I said, you're either going to have to do something about income inequality, you're going to have to armor plate your Tesla. Those are your two choices. And I, I got the distinct impression they wanted to armor plate their Tesla. That was kind of cool.

• 1:01:56Speaker 04

  Or go to Mars.

• 1:01:57Kara Swisher?

  Or go to Mars. They could shoot poor people, right? What could change here? Or nothing at all. They'll continue their pay to play for the next couple of years and get the shit they want and then solidify themselves by being trillionaires.

• 1:02:09Speaker 03

  I, I think they've chosen the latter of those choices, as you described. I mean, in a sense, even if you want kind of unfettered capitalism, you have to make society safe for it. And they've chosen kind of repression of the masses in one form or another, rather than, you know, providing for their basic needs. And I don't see this improving in any way. I mean, I think we're on the road to kleptocracy, if not already there. I don't see the Democrats as really united enough to, I mean, I think a lot of them understand that some populist economic response is what's necessary. And actually restricting these guys' power. I don't think there are any virtuous billionaires out there, really. I mean, I think there are some who sponsor sort of democracy-building programs that sound nice, but I don't think that's where our savior is coming from.

• 1:02:53Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  I think the Democrats have to realign themselves really around labor and working people and understanding that Silicon Valley and especially parts of the industry like crypto are their adversary and not someone who's worth befriending or trying to get some money from because ultimately they're going to undermine you and your constituents.

• 1:03:13Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I think it's difficult because I think we have a, you know, we have an idolatry of innovators and money, you know, in this country, and I think it's gone to the extreme at this point. I do think there are several that are better people than others, but even relying on them is a problem, right? Because it doesn't really matter who it is. One of the problems that you have is that, that the money in politics is so massive, it's hard to battle. But you look at something like Elon in Wisconsin losing despite spending the money, or you look at Zohar Mandami, which all the billionaires sort of put themselves against him and he still won. But I have a last question. I want to read you a quote, both of you, from James Baldwin. "The world changes according to the way people see it.

• 1:03:56Kara Swisher?

  And if you alter, even by a millimeter, the way a person looks or people look at reality, then you can change it." Each of you, do you think we can alter how people look at reality right now, given the forces from above that Jacob writes about and the forces from below that Beth writes about? First, Jacob, and then Beth.

• 1:04:15Speaker 03

  I do, actually. And I'm thinking of something you said in a question just a couple of minutes ago, which is that, you know, these people that I write about, the tech elites and their allies in politics, in some sense, aren't that popular, especially when people discover who they are and what they're about. And, you know, they're not our friends, they don't have the mass of people's best interests in hearts. A lot of them are kind of sociopathic or xenophobic. And I think that's something that a lot of people are capable of understanding. It's just sort of a message and a reality that needs to be spread. And if that's a direction we can nudge people in, I think that can make a huge difference because, you know, as the sort of hokey old phrase goes, you know, there's ultimately more of us than them. And when people understand what they're about, it's not what they want.

• 1:04:58Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 1:04:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. But that's why your book is so important, because you're shining a light on that. You know who's really ticked off about this is moms. And when I go out on these listening tours, they are just so fed up. They've seen that these guys have made us more divided, less educated, and their kids addicted to porn and gambling and things like chatbots. I mean, that's where my groundswell of support has come for this idea to run. I think if we can somehow galvanize the moms to get more active and really make this a grassroots campaign to point out how self-dealing these folks are and how they're not paying their fair share. They are not paying their fair share.

• 1:05:40Kara Swisher?

  Right, that's exactly right. So give me each of you one last hopeful idea. These are very dire books, they really are. But if you don't mind, indulge me on that. Beth and then Jacob.

• 1:05:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think the fact that if we can reach out, start with our families. I know sometimes it's easier to deal with somebody else's crazy cousin than your own. But I think that's a, I show a couple of examples in my own family where we spend time and we talk about politics and we point things out and we do it gently and with respect. And we try to mirror back the best version of what they just said without going zero to sixty or rolling my eyes like I did sometimes. I think that's a technique that works. And I do think we have to have hope. We have to have these hard conversations because people are really suffering out there. And they're starting to get the message. We saw that in Virginia a couple of weeks ago.

• 1:06:35Speaker 04

  And you saw every county move a little bit to the left. And, and people are starting to see. And that's why I think like shows like yours and books like Jacob's and mine are helping people understand how they got there. One of the best things I heard about the book was from my very centrist friend Betty, who I've known since we were four, who read the book. And, you know, she's on the bank board. She runs a very successful business. And she said, Well, people aren't going to like it here, but I think I need to change my media diet. And I thought, that's a perfect answer.

• 1:07:08Kara Swisher?

  There you go. Millimeter, millimeter. Jacob, you get the last word.

• 1:07:12Speaker 03

  Well, I think one sort of silver lining perhaps is that the people we're talking about are not really able to fall through on their rhetoric and provide that better utopian world that they once talked about or improve people's lives. I mean, I think that's what's created some of the reactionary sentiment, but we've had 10 or 15 years where a lot of supposed tech innovations haven't really taken off. And I think the AI bubble that's inevitably going to collapse, I think, will hurt people, but at least perhaps produce some positive kind of political anger and sentiment where people realize like, hey, these guys poured unbelievable resources into something that's not really helping people, that's just gouging labor. And look what we could have done with this money. Like, why are these people in charge?

• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  That's sort of a kind of realization I hope plays out for a lot of people, and I think can.

• 1:07:59Kara Swisher?

  All right. Great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate two wonderful books and really important, and I really enjoyed reading them together, actually.

• 1:08:05Speaker 04

  Thank you, Kara.

• 1:08:06Kara Swisher?

  Anyway, thank you so much, both of you.

• 1:08:08Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:08:15Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yokum, Michelle Aloy, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Track academics. If you're already following the show, you're willing to move a millimeter. If not, stop rolling your eyes. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.