#409: Brené Brown — Striving versus Self-Acceptance, Saving Marriages, and More

"We chase extraordinary moments instead of being grateful for ordinary moments until hard shit happens. And then in the face of really hard stuff — illness, death, loss — the only thing we're begging for is a normal moment." — Brené Brown Dr. Brené Brown (@BreneBrown https://twitter.com/BreneBrown) is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds the Huffington Foundation – Brené Brown Endowed Chair at The Graduate College of Social Work. Brené is also a visiting professor in management at The University of Texas at Austin McCombs School of Business. She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy and is the author of five #1 New York Times bestsellers: The Gifts of Imperfection http://www.amazon.com/The-Gifts-Imperfection-Supposed-Embrace/dp/159285849X/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, Daring Greatly http://www.amazon.com/Daring-Greatly-Courage-Vulnerable-Transforms/dp/1592407331/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, Rising Strong http://www.amazon.com/Rising-Strong-Bren-Brown/dp/0812995821/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, Braving the Wilderness https://www.amazon.com/Braving-Wilderness-Quest-Belonging-Courage/dp/0812985818/ref=as_li_ss_tl?keywords=Braving+the+Wilderness&qid=1580948171&s=books&sr=1-1&linkCode=ll1&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=1c633ed31510b4e57008b48fff5bb165&language=en_US, and her latest book, Dare to Lead https://www.amazon.com/Dare-Lead-Brave-Conversations-Hearts/dp/0399592520/ref=as_li_ss_tl?keywords=Dare+to+Lead&qid=1580948292&s=books&sr=1-3&linkCode=ll1&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=014c2669ee9c896fe156d56ba5c752a9&language=en_US, which is the culmination of a seven-year study on courage and leadership. Brené hosts the Unlocking Us podcast https://brenebrown.com/unlockingus/, and her TED talk -- The Power of Vulnerability http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability?language=en -- is one of the top five most viewed TED talks in the world with over 45 million views. She is also the first researcher to have a filmed lecture on Netflix. The Call to Courage https://www.netflix.com/title/81010166 special debuted on the streaming service on April 19, 2019. Please enjoy Brené's return to the show! This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep https://helixsleep.com/tim. I recently moved into a new home and needed new beds, and I purchased mattresses from Helix Sleep. It offers mattresses personalized to your preferences and sleeping style without costing thousands of dollars. Visit HelixSleep.com/TIM https://helixsleep.com/tim and take the simple 2-3 minute sleep quiz to get started, and the team there will build a mattress you’ll love. Their customer service makes all the difference. The mattress arrives within a week, and the shipping is completely free. You can try the mattress for 100 nights, and if you’re not happy, it’ll pick it up and offer a full refund. To personalize your sleep experience, visit HelixSleep.com/TIM https://helixsleep.com/tim and you’ll receive up to $125 off your custom mattress. *** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. 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• 0:01Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Now would be an appropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:24Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Brave, the next-generation web browser. I love Brave. And if you haven't heard about it, here is the skinny. Brave was built by a team of privacy-focused, performance-oriented pioneers of the web, and I do mean pioneers. Brave was co-founded by Brendan Eich, E-I-C-H, and Brian Bondi. Brendan was previously the co-founder of Mozilla Firefox and the creator of JavaScript. Brave now has more than 10 million monthly active users, and I'm one of them. Why? Why would I use Brave? Because Brave gives you unmatched speed, security, and privacy. And when I say unmatched, I mean the difference is hard to believe. And here's why. Every time you download a webpage, when you go to any webpage, you are not just downloading the text and images,

• 1:09Tim Ferriss?

  you are also downloading web junk. This includes trackers and scripts that run in the background, slowing your downloads and wasting your time by an average of 5 seconds per page, while also draining your battery faster and costing you extra in data charges. There is a way to have the best experience a web can offer, and that is by using Brave. Brave is up to six times faster than other browsers, and it's truly incredible how much faster everything is. I have used Brave, for instance, to get on airplane Wi-Fi when other browsers crash. I have used it to watch YouTube videos when it's just suspended in loading forever on other browsers. It's not subtle at all. There's a huge difference. Other browsers act like a vacuum cleaner for your data.

• 1:53Tim Ferriss?

  So this is on the security/privacy side. You're being profiled and tracked across the web. "So what?" you might ask. Well, data collected about you can be used to manipulate both your decisions and countrywide decisions like elections. And if you want more on that, listen to my episode with Tristan Harris. Brave is a way to protect yourself and remove the surveillance economy. Brave also includes options, which I use quite often, such as Private Window with Tor for those seeking advanced privacy and safety. This browser feels intuitive. It's super easy to use. You can import your bookmarks with one click and all your favorite Chrome extensions are also available with Brave. And it doesn't have to be either or. You can use multiple browsers for different things.

• 2:34Tim Ferriss?

  Now, listeners of this show, The Tim Ferriss Show, can easily upgrade their browser for free and all you have to do is go to brave.com/tim. That's brave.com/tim. I use Brave all the time and I strongly suggest that you at least test it out. So, go to brave.com/tim and give it a shot.

• 2:58Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Last year, I focused on dramatically improving a few things. Surprise, surprise. Most notably, the quality of my sleep, which seems to affect just about everything. This led me to revisit, you name it, my daily routine, morning routine, exercise, diet, all the way to what I slept on. And I ended up getting all-new beds here in Austin, Texas, including mattresses from Helix Sleep. Helix has built a sleep quiz that takes two minutes to complete and they use the answers to match your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress. Whether you're a side sleeper, hot sleeper, cold sleeper, or you like plush, you like firm, with Helix, there's no more guessing

• 3:38Tim Ferriss?

  or confusion. Just go to helixsleep.com/tim, take their two-minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. That is their promise. For couples, Helix can even split the mattress down the middle, providing individual support needs and feel preferences for each side. They have a 10-year warranty and you can test drive your mattress for 100 nights risk-free. Right now, Helix is offering up to $125 off of all mattress orders. So, check it out. Get up to $125 off at helixsleep.com/tim. That's helixsleep.com/tim for $125 off your mattress order. Take a look. helixsleep.com/tim.

• 4:24Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot, what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first

• 5:04Tim Ferriss?

  subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out. Go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's drink A G one, the number one, drinkag1.com/tim. Last time, drinkag1.com/tim. Check it out.

• 5:24Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to interview world-class performers and world-class experts of different types from all different fields. My guest today is Dr. Brené Brown. Dr. Brené Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston, where she holds the Huffington Foundation Brené Brown Endowed Chair at the Graduate College of Social Work. She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, and is the author of five, count them, five, number one New York Times bestsellers, The Gifts of Imperfection, Daring Greatly, Rising Strong, Braving the Wilderness, and her latest book, Dare to Lead, which is the culmination of a seven-year study on courage and leadership. Her TED Talk, The Power of Vulnerability, is one of the top five most viewed TED Talks

• 6:09Tim Ferriss?

  in the world with more than 35 million views. Let that sink in. 35 million views. My goodness. She is also the first researcher to have a film to talk on Netflix, The Call to Courage, special debuted on the streaming service in April of 2019. She lives in Houston, Texas, with her husband Steve. They have two children, Ellen and Charlie. She also has a brand-new podcast, just in, should be launching right about now, called Unlocking Us, coming out March 2020. You can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brené, welcome back to the show. I'm excited to be here. It's so good to see you. I love your digs. Thank you very much. Beautiful. Austin Tejas.

• 6:50Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 6:51Tim Ferriss?

  Although you can't see much of it right now with the cloud cover. But I wanted to start with two things that happened today.

• 6:58Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 6:59Tim Ferriss?

  Number one, talking to my girlfriend this morning and she says, oh, who are you interviewing today? And I say, Brene Brown. She goes, I love how casually you say that. And then a woman downstairs, I won't mention my name, who works in the building. Similar story, similar reaction. And I have met so many women who are otherwise very tightly composed, who start gushing at the mere mention of your name. And what I would love to hear you comment on is what chord do you think you have struck? Or what archetype are you providing that gets that response? Because it's not a common response.

• 7:37Tim Ferriss?

  I know a lot of very successful or very famous women who do not elicit that kind of response from people. How do you explain that?

• 7:48Brené Brown?

  No idea.

• 7:49Tim Ferriss?

  No idea.

• 7:50Brené Brown?

  No idea. Um, I don't know.

• 7:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 7:53Brené Brown?

  Do you know?

• 7:55Tim Ferriss?

  I have perhaps a theory. I mean, the only other person I've heard elicit similar responses is Esther Perel. So I

• 8:04Brené Brown?

  Love her.

• 8:04Tim Ferriss?

  Have to imagine she's great, that has something to do with vulnerability. But is it just that? I mean, what is the feedback that people give you?

• 8:14Brené Brown?

  Okay, so I do have a theory. And I don't know, I don't know if this, I don't know if this is the driver of that reaction. Because it's still shocking to me. Like normally, like if somebody, if I walk up and someone goes, I still like look behind me like, what's happening? Like, you know, or mostly I'm looking for danger because I'm wired. But um, here's what my new theory is. My new theory is that it's not that people, I mean, people I think appreciate the research. They appreciate the work. But I think what really connects to people, a kind of a cross gender, is what they really like is watching me struggle with my own work.

• 8:53Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 8:54Brené Brown?

  So rather than being someone that's like, here's what we should all be doing.

• 8:59Tim Ferriss?

  I've got it all figured out.

• 9:00Brené Brown?

  Figured out. I'm like, this shit sucks. Like, and if I didn't think we had to do it, I'd be like, no way in hell am I doing this. And so I think. It's a combination of giving people language for experiences that we all have. Um, and then being really forthright about how much, how hard it is for me and how much I hate it sometimes.

• 9:28Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 9:28Brené Brown?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 9:29Tim Ferriss?

  I do.

• 9:30Brené Brown?

  Watching the struggle.

• 9:31Tim Ferriss?

  In the description of your new podcast, which will be launching shortly and is already dominating the charts with a preview. Congratulations.

• 9:40Brené Brown?

  Thank you. I'm excited.

• 9:41Tim Ferriss?

  One of the phrases that stuck out to me, and I might butcher this slightly, but it was something like the magic and messiness of relationships or the human condition. But the magic and the messiness. So maybe what you're speaking to is not providing the highlight reel, which I think is common.

• 9:58Brené Brown?

  Totally.

• 9:59Tim Ferriss?

  But also giving people the, the, the lowlights, which are part of everyone's experience.

• 10:05Brené Brown?

  Yes, I'm like not a fan. It's like the ESPN play of the day.

• 10:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 10:09Brené Brown?

  Like there are like 5,694 pop flies missed. You know, it's like, and you know, and then that means there's like 300 outfielders. They're in a shame shitstorm and you know, and like to me, that's much more interesting than the play of the day.

• 10:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I like the play of the day. I watch the play of the day. I'm a big sports person, but I don't often make the play of the day.

• 10:32Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 10:32Brené Brown?

  So, so, yeah.

• 10:34Tim Ferriss?

  Which is, which is precisely why when every once in a while I'll talk to someone involved with media and they're like, can we shadow you for a day? And I'm like, absolutely not.

• 10:42Brené Brown?

  No.

• 10:43Tim Ferriss?

  It's because it's 99% just like missing, missing the pop ball and having it hit me square in the face. That's 99% of the day. And I'm like, that's not going to make for compelling media coverage.

• 10:55Brené Brown?

  No, and I get asked that sometimes too. And I'm just like, well, first of all, no, because like, like, okay, I'm making a lunch for school. You know, for my kid going to school, I'm unloading the dishwasher. Um, you know, like it's, and yeah, this goes into a whole different topic, but I also have like, there's a line, like this is my life.

• 11:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 11:14Brené Brown?

  Like the people I love can't follow me.

• 11:17Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 11:17Brené Brown?

  So strangers are definitely not following me. I don't like anybody enough.

• 11:21Tim Ferriss?

  How did you, and I know we, we spoke about using a certain format for this conversation. We'll get to those.

• 11:26Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 11:26Tim Ferriss?

  But I'm curious, as someone who, as best I can tell, was not trying to become famous. You gave your TED Talk. That now has thirty-five-plus million views. It's one of the top talks of all time. So it seems, from the outside looking in, that you're sort of thrust into becoming a public figure. How did you navigate determining where to draw lines and boundaries?

• 11:55Brené Brown?

  Well, I don't know. It's still a daily practice. I'm still drawing them every day and I'm readressing them every day. But I am so grateful that this didn't happen to me when I was younger. Because I don't know. There's like this working theory that a friend of mine, Jennifer, shared with me that she said, "I don't know that anyone who is trying primarily to be famous has anything interesting to say." And I think part, and I think that's true. Like, I, I, I didn't want to be, I don't know that I'm famous, but I didn't want to be a public person.

• 12:37Brené Brown?

  Because I'm too self-conscious for that, really, to be honest with you. Like, and I'm, I'm a tough person, but I get my feelings hurt. And so when people make fun of what I look like, or what I say, or if I use the wrong word or mispronounce something, like, it can, it can take me down, less than it used to be able to, less than it did, I guess. But, so I didn't really want the public part. So when that first started happening after the TED Talk, I already had a team together, because I was, I wanted to get, scale my work. I wanted to get to as many people as I could with my work. I just wanted to stand, like, down and push my work into the world.

• 13:18Brené Brown?

  And not be, there's a lot of people whose work is in the world, but they don't, we don't know who they are. But again, going back to your first question, I don't think it's my work. I think it's me as a vessel for the work that resonates with people, because I think I am, it's like a terrible paradox.

• 13:37Brené Brown?

  It is a terrible paradox. I was just, I'm having a moment, like, that it's my ordinariness that makes me relatable, and it's also my ordinariness that makes me...

• 13:52Brené Brown?

  Where I take all the hits.

• 13:54Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 13:55Brené Brown?

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 13:56Tim Ferriss?

  I do, and I also think, I mean, I'm not gonna, I would, over drinks, maybe debate the ordinariness, but I do understand what you're saying, and I think that in your displaying of your fully imperfect self, which we all are, right, in that ordinariness, doing what you do and putting your work into the world as you have is extraordinary. And so I think that may be a piece of why people connect and find it so inspiring, right? As opposed to seeing like a LeBron James, whoever, just going, well, that's, that guy is a mutant.

• 14:34Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 14:34Tim Ferriss?

  There is, that is a separate planet. There's no, there's no room for me to aspire to emulate that because it's so out of reach. Does that make, does that make sense?

• 14:46Brené Brown?

  It totally, it totally makes sense.

• 14:47Tim Ferriss?

  Whereas when you are very vulnerable and discuss the struggle, people go, oh shit, that's how I feel. I didn't know people who do things like put work into the world in a TED Talk and this, that, and five bestselling books and so on, could also feel that way and do the work that they do.

• 15:09Brené Brown?

  Yeah. So, yes, I definitely, I definitely feel that way. I mean, I think, and I think the people who've followed my work for a long time were kind of just growing up together and learning together. I mean, when I started, I didn't understand that I could be brave and afraid at the same time. And now I kind of live in that. I'm like, I'm, I feel brave right now because I'm with you here doing this, but I'm also afraid. And I'm like, I'm literally thinking, how much longer can I hold in my stomach and talk to him? And at some point, I'm just gonna have to like breathe. These are the things I think about, you know, that I'm like, I shouldn't have worn the clingy like, uh, Rolling Stone shirt. I should have worn something like puffier so I could breathe like, like,

• 15:51Brené Brown?

  I'm just a normal person, but, but yeah, I'm just a normal, I am a really, I think we're all kind of ordinary people. I get to do extraordinary things, but I think we're all ordinary people, but I think sometimes this world is tough because we shame and diminish ordinary.

• 16:11Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:12Brené Brown?

  Ordinary lives are small lives, you know, ordinary moments are, you know, we chase extraordinary moments instead of like being grateful for ordinary moments until, until hard shit happens.

• 16:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 16:25Brené Brown?

  And then in the face of really hard stuff, illness, death, loss, the only thing we're begging for is a normal moment. Like, oh my God, can I please have that ordinary moment back?

• 16:37Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:37Brené Brown?

  You know, can I please hear this him come through the screen porch door? Can I please get a call from my mom or crazy like, then we want the ordinary moments, but in them with all the noise, it's about the extraordinary right now. And I'll tell you a true story. I'm, I'm debating right now whether I should tell her or not because it's so fresh, but I just had to do a photo shoot for the podcast, like the image for Apple and everyone to use. And I was, the photographer was great, Randolph Ford, and it was, it was fine. It was at the Hotel St. Cecilia here in Austin, which was a really fun place to do it.

• 17:14Tim Ferriss?

  Great place.

• 17:14Brené Brown?

  So, and I'm like uncomfortably like, you know, doing that, like how much, how much is too toothy, you know, that whole thing. And they said, well, come and look at the monitor. They're great. And then I stepped around to look at the monitor and it was such shock to me because this was the thing playing in my mind. Like, I'm 54, I know who I am, I really like who I am, but then I'm looking in this monitor and I'm like, oh my God, because my training for 54 years has been, why are you taking pictures and having all these fancy people here when you're not perfect looking?

• 17:56Brené Brown?

  Like this is, this is the realm of perfect people, like models do this and stuff, you know, like, but to see on these big screens with all these professional people against a white backdrop like me, I'm like,

• 18:08Brené Brown?

  Oh my God, this is, this is not what we normally see in a photo shoot behind the scenes, right? And it was just this moment that it was such a metaphor for life. It's like I earned every single one of these effing wrinkles and stretch marks. Like, and this is the body, you know, that raised my kids and, you know, like, but that ordinariness can almost be, for those of us who haven't found a way to love it in ourselves, repulsive.

• 18:41Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 18:42Brené Brown?

  You know, like-

• 18:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the realness.

• 18:44Brené Brown?

  The realness, like, this is me. And so like when they were, when they were doing the photos, like get ready, you know, photoshopping the photos, I was like, you know, make sure that you make, that I look my age because I don't like the like shock and aha when I show up someplace and they're like, damn, was that an old photo? You know, like, um, it's true, but it's like, but really grappling with, and I'm just gonna say these things out loud.

• 19:12Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 19:13Brené Brown?

  Do you know what, like, because, and maybe that's why people are like, oh, thank God, someone's saying them out loud.

• 19:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, right.

• 19:19Brené Brown?

  Because they're normally relegated to our secret shame lives.

• 19:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 19:25Brené Brown?

  You know, and we all have them.

• 19:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, oh, for sure.

• 19:29Brené Brown?

  Right?

• 19:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, I'm glad that you are, it's odd to put it this way, but showcasing that, right? I mean, it's, I think it's, I think it's, it provides a sigh of relief to a lot of people who feel like they have to keep all those things relegated or to do, or feel like they have to divorce those parts of themselves in, in some way.

• 19:49Brené Brown?

  Yes, yeah. And I think it's, I think it's, there is a divorcing, there's an orphaning even, I would say, that, you know, of these parts of ourselves. And it's not like, you know, it's weird too, because people always say, this is an interesting question, I should ask you this question.

• 20:08Tim Ferriss?

  Fire away.

• 20:09Brené Brown?

  People always say- Where's the line between embracing imperfection and vulnerability and kind of our humanity and striving for excellence?

• 20:21Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 20:22Brené Brown?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 20:22Tim Ferriss?

  Absolutely.

• 20:23Brené Brown?

  And I'm a striver, like I'm a like, you know, like we're serious about our brand and my work and attributions and I work out all the time and, you know, you asked me before we started, we were checking like, what'd you have for breakfast? I'm like, I'm intermittent fasting.

• 20:40Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm like, damn it, we just need 10 seconds of audio. What are you fantasizing about eating for lunch?

• 20:46Brené Brown?

  Keto bar.

• 20:47Tim Ferriss?

  Keto bar.

• 20:48Brené Brown?

  Um, so it's not like, you know, it's not like embracing your imperfection is giving up.

• 20:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 20:53Brené Brown?

  But what do you, how do you answer that question? If I said, Tim?

• 20:56Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 20:57Brené Brown?

  Where's the line between being our best selves or striving for excellence? And embracing who we are?

• 21:06Tim Ferriss?

  Funny you should ask because we're recording this in January 2020. And I thought a lot about this on New Year's Eve and in the few days after the passing of the new year, when I was going through notes and photographs and everything from the past year, and I'm actually still doing that review. I mean, we're well through the midpoint of January and I'm still doing my last year review. And one of the conversations with my girlfriend, with some of my best friends was this topic exactly. And I can tell you where I landed because I wanted to try to get the right phrasing from me of the question. So I talked about the line, right? Like, and there were a number of different versions of the question.

• 21:51Tim Ferriss?

  One was, how can you be self-accepting without becoming complacent?

• 21:57Brené Brown?

  Oh, God, that's right.

• 21:58Tim Ferriss?

  Right? Like, that was one, right?

• 21:59Brené Brown?

  That's great.

• 21:59Tim Ferriss?

  That was one. And then

• 22:01Brené Brown?

  That's good.

• 22:01Tim Ferriss?

  You know, how can you conversely, like, how can you be high achieving without being self-flagellating or self-abusing? And I thought about

• 22:10Brené Brown?

  Another good one.

• 22:11Tim Ferriss?

  I thought about the line, as you phrased it. I thought about the line and I realized that I had trouble answering that question, like where the line is. So the question that I started to ask myself, which was informed by a book I've been reading for the last month or so called Already Free, which is written by a Boulder-based psychotherapist who also is a

• 22:33Tim Ferriss?

  Buddhist contemplative. And he would be the first to say, these two do not mesh. They actually contradict each other in some ways, but you can make room for and use both. So informed by this book, which I was reading during the passing of the new year. I thought to myself, maybe the question is, how can I make room for both striving and self acceptance? And so this might seem really clinical and boring, but I just schedule blocks of time for both. And practices for both. So for instance, there's a journal called the five minute journal. And part of that is what I'm grateful for, three bullets.

• 23:17Tim Ferriss?

  What made today great, three bullets. And those are generally small things. Sometimes they're big things, but I try to include at least one small thing so that I don't become myopically fixated on the extraordinary.

• 23:30Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 23:30Tim Ferriss?

  Right. And because I think one of the risks of being heavily achievement focused is that you only give yourself a pat on the back when you've done something that is the equivalent of a home run talk or a massive project launch or setting a world record some type in your mind. And you can become really miserable that way. So in my personal life, driving and achievement and being in gear six is and has been forever the default. Right? And I think that's a coping mechanism for a lot of things that happened when I was younger, but nonetheless, that is the default.

• 24:10Tim Ferriss?

  So the self acceptance is putting things in the calendar as practices that will ensure I take time for that. Because my experience is that if I don't put them in the calendar, they just get squeezed out by everything else. How do you, how do you think about it?

• 24:28Brené Brown?

  Well, I'm changing in real time because I love to make room for both. But I think the only place that I have come to around using my question about the line, where's the line between, I love that complacency and

• 24:44Brené Brown?

  What'd you say, complacency? Oh, self-acceptance. Self-acceptance and complacency. And for me, I always think, where's the line between? So, I'll just take it to my, to our organization. And my role as a leader in that organization. We believe in excellence and beauty in all things. And we are not jacking around. Like, like, if a font's wrong, I will notice it. So where is the line between excellence and beauty in all things? And perfectionism that is paralyzing no work gets out. So there's always, you know, where's the line between my perfectionism and my being my best self? I, the only thing I've come to so far that has been the shift for me between, it's a midlife shift.

• 25:28Brené Brown?

  I think it's a midlife shift for everyone. And it's taken me a good five years in midlife. I will determine the line. You will not determine the line for me. So I know. I know that for me, it doesn't matter what I'm achieving or accomplishing. If I'm not eating in a way that makes sense for me, working out and sleeping, that it doesn't matter. So like, for whether you're saying, boy, you need to, you know, lose thirty pounds, or you're on the side where you're like, healthy at every, you know, whatever, it doesn't matter. I don't care what you think on either side. What I think is, I know I need to work out five days a week.

• 26:12Brené Brown?

  I know that I need to eat this way. I know I need to write down what I'm eating. I need, because otherwise I'm like, I can be a stress carb person. So for me, the day I, the day I reclaimed that line as internally set, not externally set, was a huge changer for me. But I do think I need to make room for both. I, I'm gonna look into that. Like, I, it is very Buddhist.

• 26:38Tim Ferriss?

  It is.

• 26:38Brené Brown?

  It's not the competition conflict thing.

• 26:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Tim Ferriss?

  And what this author, I'm blanking on his name, but we'll put it in the show notes. What he uses as labels are, on the, on the Western psychotherapy side, he talks about the developmental view. So you look back at the, the outdated strategies that have become patterns in your life that are no longer applicable or are being overused. And then you take steps to sort of improve or change your behaviors. And that would include your thought patterns. And then the, on the Buddhist side, I would just say if Buddhist as a word bothers you, on the awareness side, he would call it the foritional view, which is being effectively becoming and cultivating the ability to be okay with whatever is.

• 27:26Tim Ferriss?

  And so another aspect of this that I've been thinking about a lot is there is, there is, there are different types of self-acceptance. And I think this is really important. And it's always something I've thought very closely about in the last handful of years because I spent most of my life hating myself, at best tolerating myself for moments. But there was a lot of self-loathing driving performance. And I, for a long time, viewed any type of self-acceptance as complacency. It was just self-acceptance equals complacency, period.

• 27:58Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Tim Ferriss?

  And you need to be your own devil whipping yourself in the back to try harder. What I've realized, and this is informed by a lot of reading, of course, is that there's, there is complacent self-acceptance, where you say, everything I'm doing is just fine. I don't need to change anything. And I shouldn't change anything.

• 28:16Brené Brown?

  Okay, I want to, you need to stop there for a second. You can edit it, but I'm a pauser. I need, I'm a, I have to think. There is such thing as what?

• 28:22Tim Ferriss?

  And I can modify, I can modify.

• 28:24Brené Brown?

  But I want, I want you to say what you just said first.

• 28:25Tim Ferriss?

  So what I said is, I do think there are multiple types of self-acceptance.

• 28:28Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 28:29Tim Ferriss?

  And that, that term self-acceptance could be used to excuse complacency in the sense that you could say, I am practicing self-acceptance, which means everything is great, everything is as it should be, la la la, I don't need to change anything. But then, I'll just add one more piece. There's, there is Self-acceptance, which says, for instance, as an example, I'm making this up lightly.

• 28:52Brené Brown?

  Have to write this down.

• 28:53Tim Ferriss?

  But like, right now, I am nervous and I'm frustrated and I'm angry because A, B, and C is happening in my life. And we're doing this podcast and I'm bald now and like in 2007 and oh my God, is my head just a shiny cue ball on camera right now? Blah, blah, blah. And I could accept all of those things as true because they are. Those are my experience. And then for some of them, I could resolve to take steps to improve upon those things. Right? So there's a situation I need to fix. Great. Let me go fix it because that's making me or agitating me in some way. So I think that there are, there's a, there's a self-acceptance, which is a macro, I don't need to change anything.

• 29:31Tim Ferriss?

  And then there's a self-acceptance, which is really just truthfully accepting whatever you're experiencing at the moment as what is happening. As opposed to saying, I don't want to feel angry. I don't want to feel angry and like fighting and fighting and fighting and tugging yourself in multiple directions. So that might sound kind of esoteric, but for me, it's been very profound in that you can be forgiving of whatever you are experiencing in your body, in your psyche, in the moment, while still putting in place steps to improve whatever it is you're hoping to improve. Right? I think it's possible to do both.

• 30:09Brené Brown?

  I think it's, I think it's possible to do both too, for sure. I, I do because I think I live, I live both. And I do, I go back to like the Jungian belief that the paradox is the only real thing that is, has enough tension to, to capture human experience. So I think you can have self-love and self-acceptance and want to be better in other, in ways. I think, and in fact, I don't think you can change without, okay, so here, here, here are the paradox, here are the things I want to unwind. I don't think you can truly change for the better in a lasting, meaningful way unless it is driven by self-acceptance.

• 30:49Tim Ferriss?

  I agree with that.

• 30:50Brené Brown?

  So I think being the shit out of yourself for, for performance, which, you know, I work with a lot of sports people now, like it works. And if all you have to do is pay someone for one season, or all you do is one game, or one whatever, you're okay. But lasting, meaningful change has to be driven by self-acceptance.

• 31:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 31:06Brené Brown?

  The other thing that is just so shocking to me about complacency and self-acceptance is, as I think back, and I would really have to go into the data, but just sitting here, I don't think I have ever come across a single person who I, not a single person that I can think of, who was complacent, driven by self-acceptance. Like, I don't think, I don't know, I don't know that that is not an oxymoron. I gotta tell you that, like, self-aware complacency doesn't work for me as a construct.

• 31:45Tim Ferriss?

  Self-aware, no. Uh, I don't.

• 31:47Brené Brown?

  Or self-accepted complacency.

• 31:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Brené Brown?

  I don't know that I believe that.

• 31:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I mean, I'll push, I'll push a little bit. I would say.

• 31:55Brené Brown?

  I knew you were going to, because of the look on your face.

• 31:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I would say, and I think that I'm, I'm struggling for the right terminology, but I think we all know people who are alcoholics, have various issues.

• 32:08Brené Brown?

  Totally.

• 32:09Tim Ferriss?

  And they are in denial of having problems.

• 32:12Brené Brown?

  Yes. Let me stop you there.

• 32:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 32:16Brené Brown?

  And say that is neither self-awareness nor self-acceptance.

• 32:18Tim Ferriss?

  Definitely not self-awareness.

• 32:20Brené Brown?

  But not self-acceptance either.

• 32:21Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I would, and maybe there's a better word, but I would just say that there are people who are delusional to the extent that they either believe they don't have a problem that they have, or they have a problem and refuse to accept it as a problem. I think that.

• 32:37Brené Brown?

  For sure.

• 32:38Tim Ferriss?

  Right, so, so, and we can go a lot of directions with this, but I would, I would say that,

• 32:46Tim Ferriss?

  I think we can agree there are complacent people, right? There are complacent people. And among those complacent people, I think there are those who. Hate themselves, there are those who sort of love themselves and are narcissistic, and I know a number of these. And then there's a lot in between, and I think that you, there are complacent, in some respects, complacent narcissists who, almost by definition being a narcissist, love themselves. So is that self-acceptance? Maybe yes, maybe no. I would say that it is, but it's a disabling self-acceptance, whereas, to your point about

• 33:26Tim Ferriss?

  lasting behavioral change, I think that, at least psychologically, if you are divorcing parts of yourself, if you hate parts of yourself, aspects of yourself that have been informed by your history, that, and I'm borrowing this phrase from somewhere else, but like, what you resist persists. Oh, for sure. Right? And that in, that you are going to carry that unproductive and, in some ways, self-defeating tension within you, even if someone is forcing you to change your behavior or incentivizing you to change your external behavior. Right? And so even if technically you're changing a behavior, if you, if you carry self-loathing,

• 34:09Tim Ferriss?

  even partial self-loathing with you, hating an aspect of yourself or a certain emotion within yourself, I view that as a loss. I agree. Yeah. So, this is, this is getting out there a bit, but this, this is, this is the type of stuff that, sometimes I worry that I lose, that I've lost my audience. Can I make a confession? Yeah. Because for a long time, I was thinking about writing a blog post about this, but for a very long time, if you look at all the books that I've written, it's like Book on Entrepreneurship, Book on Physical Performance, Book on Cognitive Performance and Learning, The Four R Chef, et cetera, et cetera. It's mostly developmental, it's about improving performance in one or more areas. And... Now, what I've spent more and more time on, like we're spending time on it right now, is the inner game.

• 34:54Brené Brown?

  For sure.

• 34:55Tim Ferriss?

  And the importance of developing a keen level of self-awareness so that you can examine the contents of your, this is gonna get super woo-woo for a second, but the contents of your consciousness, right? Like, wherever you go, you're carrying your mind with you. And to develop a familiarity with that, I think, is the crux skill that underlies everything else. And you and I both know plenty of achievers who are miserable, who are

• 35:25Brené Brown?

  For sure.

• 35:26Tim Ferriss?

  high-performing, well-known people who are utterly miserable. And to me, the question of why is that? How can that be the case? Is the question that I'm extremely interested in these days. And, but I worry that having built an audience who is largely, not entirely, kind of go-go-go, rah-rah-rah, win-win-win, there's nothing wrong with that, but people who are trying to develop skills and competitive advantages and so on, that I may lose a large portion of those people in shifting into talking about more of these things. We'll see where it goes, but that's something that has occurred to me. And I

• 36:08Tim Ferriss?

  think I'm willing to make that trade. I think I'm willing to take that, if that's a cost of doing business. I don't know.

• 36:15Brené Brown?

  So, a couple of things. One, the go-go-go audience that you've built, this may scare them, but I mean, as someone who works with elite athletes and professional folks and CEOs and those things, what I can tell you is, this is the hardest challenge you've issued. Like, and it's not about the conceptual complexity of what we're talking about. It's about unlocking performance is one thing. Unlocking people?

• 36:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 36:45Brené Brown?

  Way harder, way scarier. And unlocking ourselves and creating self-awareness, to me, to me, you would be remiss not to go here.

• 36:57Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:58Brené Brown?

  Because...

• 37:00Brené Brown?

  You know, I don't know. I think like something you said when you were talking about, we all know a lot of narcissists and they love themselves, but that's actually not true. Do you know that narcissism is the most shame-based of all the personality disorders? Narcissism is not about self-love at all. It's about grandiosity driven by high performance and self-hatred. It's, you know, I define it as the shame-based fear of being ordinary. And so you have, to me, you have this audience that, and I'm one of them, I mean, like, and I'm probably an outlier, I guess, and you're, it's like me being a Rush fan, like, there's always outliers.

• 37:40Tim Ferriss?

  The audience is like forty, forty to fifty percent female, but I appreciate, yeah, yeah, it is. It's, it's shifted a lot in the last handful of years.

• 37:49Brené Brown?

  Yeah, but I think, you know, when I get invited in by a Fortune 50 CEO and, you know, and here she says, look, we need help, we need help with the team, we need, they're not asking me to help with time productivity. They're not helping me to set up a Scrum or Agile process for software development. They're saying, you know, we're at each other's throats. We hate each other. It's a shame-based finger pointing, like, it's all about self-awareness and changing those behaviors. And to me, you know, to me, the hard thing about this, this area and your work is a lot of what I've learned from you that has changed my

• 38:30Brené Brown?

  life has been not only effectiveness-based, but efficiency-based. And so where you can lose people with this conversation is this is not an efficient process.

• 38:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, right.

• 38:41Brené Brown?

  Do you know what I mean? There's no, I don't think there's a four-hour self-awareness.

• 38:46Tim Ferriss?

  It's like, I have no plans to write that one.

• 38:48Brené Brown?

  Yeah, but I mean, but like, but people would love it if you could, if you could unlock that fast. But to me, This is the capstone conversation for you.

• 38:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 38:57Brené Brown?

  Do you know what I mean? Like,

• 38:58Tim Ferriss?

  I do.

• 38:59Brené Brown?

  Because what's it all fucking for?

• 39:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 39:02Brené Brown?

  You know, like, I'm fit, I'm winning, I'm smart, I'm successful, and I'm on my third marriage and I don't speak to any of my children.

• 39:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Brené Brown?

  Like,

• 39:15Tim Ferriss?

  Which you see a lot, or I mean,

• 39:16Brené Brown?

  I see all the time.

• 39:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Brené Brown?

  Right, because I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you, not to dismiss the importance of that work, that's easier.

• 39:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, it is easier.

• 39:28Brené Brown?

  It is easier, you know, because

• 39:31Brené Brown?

  the thing about these conversations that you and I end up having every time we sit down, this is the second time, but both times we've sat down, is what, what differentiates us as a social species is the need to be seen and known and loved, and the need to see and know and love others. And no one rides for free. Like, we all come into this adulthood with hard stuff. And what I would say

• 40:05Brené Brown?

  is true about complacency. And 95% of what I see that people call pathology is it's armor.

• 40:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Brené Brown?

  It's not, it's armor, it's how, it's behaviors and ways of thinking that I've developed to protect myself from being hurt.

• 40:27Tim Ferriss?

  So I've, I have a question

• 40:28Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 40:29Tim Ferriss?

  to you about that. And I'm just gonna reach in.

• 40:32Tim Ferriss?

  There you go. So, you're good, you're good. So my question related to armor is,

• 40:42Tim Ferriss?

  I'll get to you through a segue, which is a quote that I want to say Tara Brock.

• 40:48Tim Ferriss?

  The well-known meditation teacher, also writer, Radical Acceptance is a fantastic book, shared with me, which I'm gonna paraphrase, and it's along the lines of, you know, a great sage once said, "There's only one real question that matters, and that is, what are you unwilling to feel?" I've thought about that a lot, and not to say I have any concise answers to that, but I think it's, I think it's, I think it's an anecdote really worth meditating on. I've thought about it. What do you say to the people you meet who are on the third marriage, their kids don't talk to them, and there are certain things that they have convinced themselves, subconsciously or otherwise, maybe through an abusive upbringing

• 41:31Tim Ferriss?

  or trauma, whatever it might be, that it is unsafe to feel certain things. And you come in, they've asked for help, but they do not want to open Pandora's box, right? They do not want someone to drag them into the deep waters of emotions that they've kept under lock and key for so long. How do you help someone like that? What do you suggest to them? Because it does get messy, right? It's gonna get messy before it gets clean, right? At least in my experience. It's like, you, "Oh, you're gonna do spring cleaning? Guess what? You gotta take all the things that are up on the, up on the shelves, all the things in the drawers, all the things that are hanging on coat hangers, and you're gonna put them in the middle of the room. And it's gonna be a mess. It's gonna be a fucking mess."

• 42:12Brené Brown?

  Yeah. And you're gonna be pissed that you did it halfway through.

• 42:14Tim Ferriss?

  And that is, but you can't really get pass-go without that type of step. So for someone who's listening to this and says, "You know what? I buy it. Like, I get it. And yet, what do I do? Because I've been, I've had on this armor for so long."

• 42:29Brené Brown?

  So I would say a couple of things. I mean, the first thing I always feel like is really important to say is that I'm a researcher, and so I'm not a therapist. That would differentiate me with Esther. Like, I don't see clients. If I go in and I'm working with CEOs and this question comes up all the time, what I would say to people is Pandora's box is closed right now, but... Are you under the impression that you're living outside of the box or in the box?

• 42:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I like that.

• 42:54Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I mean, like, you don't want to open Pandora's box because that's strange to me because you're living inside Pandora's box and what I feel like you've asked me to come here to open it up. Like, we're not going to do this process without walking through some deep shit. There's going to be deep swift water. And if the water's super deep and swift, you need to go through that with a therapist and get that that that settled before we work in the organizational way. But what I would say to people, what I always say is is the same for me, and I'm sure the same for you, that we all grew up and experienced at very varying degrees, trauma, disappointment, how, you know, hard stuff, we armored up.

• 43:34Brené Brown?

  And at some point, that armor no longer serves us. And so what I think I would say to that person is, how is not talking about this serving you? Like, I've been sober for 23 years. So someone in AA would be like, how's that shit working for you? You know, like, but I probably would put a softer spin on it than that. Over black coffee and a cigarette. But, you know, but I would say that it's not serving anymore. And now the weight of the armor is too heavy and it's not protecting you, it's keeping you from being seen and known by others. And so this is, I mean, just to tell you quintessentially,

• 44:15Brené Brown?

  this is the developmental milestone of midlife. From late 30s to, you know, through probably your 60s, this is the question. You know, this is when the universe comes down and puts her hands on your shoulders and pulls you close and whispers in your ear, I'm not fucking around. You're halfway to dead. The armor is keeping you from growing into the gifts I've given you. That is not without penalty. Time is up. So this is what you see happen to people in midlife. And it's not a crisis. It's a slow, brutal unraveling. And this is where everything that we thought protected us, keeps us from being the partners, the

• 44:58Brené Brown?

  parents, the professionals, the people that we want to be. And there are only, I've only seen, this is a fork in the road. I've only seen two responses to this visit from the universe. Well, there's, I guess there's, there was my response, which I was like, screw you. Bring it. Like you think you can best me? And then it was just one nightmare situation after another until you're not going to win that fight.

• 45:23Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 45:24Brené Brown?

  I think if you say, you know what, I'm not, I'm not going to do it. Then you've got to double down. These are the people that walk through the world, double down on their own shit in denial. You know, cheeks squeezed as they walk and cause so much pain in the world.

• 45:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. To themselves as well.

• 45:46Brené Brown?

  I mean, yes, because it is so much easier to offload pain than to feel pain.

• 45:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Brené Brown?

  And so you really have a choice in midlife. Whether you're going to be, you're going to, you know, identify the first step of it. The whole process is what armor? And I'm not saying like, I'm not saying just pull off all the armor and streak through Austin. Because I think you can't replace the armor with something. I think it's curiosity is what you replace. You just become very curious about yourself, about the world. Why did I react that way? When Tim asked me that question, I wanted to like hit him over the head with a Topo Chico bottle. You know, what was going on there? Do you know what I mean? Like, what is my obsession about this?

• 46:32Brené Brown?

  You just become very curious is curiosity is really the superpower. For the second half of our lives. Because it keeps us learning, it keeps us asking questions and it increases our self-awareness. But when you see, and I think it's really hard because, you know, I'll walk into a situation and there'll be the person who invited me is usually the CEO. And then you'll have like the cross-armed pissed off clenched cheek like F you looking person, usually in operations or technology, you know? And then they're like, what's the business case for you being here?

• 47:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, right.

• 47:12Brené Brown?

  Like, because, you know? Here's our stock price. Here's what's going on. Here's our valuation. Like, why, what, what, what do you need? And then, you know, the CEO usually say, fucking hate each other. And this can only last for so long. Like, you know, it's the end of every great band, right? Like, this is going to come to an end and it's going to be terrible. And so, I don't know. I think you can't pull it all off at once. You have to, there's, for a lot of people, for all of us, there's trauma.

• 47:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 47:41Brené Brown?

  And people are like, no, there's not trauma for all of us. There's trauma for, you know, people who had ever been abused, physically, sexually, emotionally. There's trauma for people of color and people who have been on the margins. There's trauma for all of us. It's just different levels of trauma.

• 47:56Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 47:56Brené Brown?

  You know, I mean, to escape childhood with nothing is, I haven't met that person yet.

• 48:03Tim Ferriss?

  No, I haven't either.

• 48:04Brené Brown?

  Right. So, the trauma stuff, literally, the trauma message in our body is, you take this armor off, we die. So you protect us at all costs and lead this on. A lot of that work has to be done with a therapist.

• 48:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. There's, uh, there's some really good books. I mean, there are a lot of terrible books on this type of topic, but the, the, I think it's The Body Knows The Score, The Body Keeps The Score.

• 48:29Brené Brown?

  Bessel van der Kerkhove.

• 48:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. Bessel van der Kerkhove is, is very interesting in terms of tying the, the physiology and somatic experience into these past emotional experiences. And, you know, what you were saying about Pandora's Box and the question, which I liked of, do you think you're living outside of Pandora's Box or are you just locked inside Pandora's Box? Uh, is, is, uh, is a really insightful question. It also reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine who's had, who had a very, very tough time, multiple divorces. Fortunately, on good terms with his kids, but a lot of interpersonal strife and...

• 49:13Tim Ferriss?

  He said, what no doubt you've heard a lot, which is like, yeah, I'm just not sure I want to go there. I'm not sure I'm ready to sort of open that. I'm not sure I'm ready to deal with it. And what what occurred to me as I was listening, because I experienced this for a long time, is, oh, you're dealing with it.

• 49:29Brené Brown?

  I was gonna say, yeah, you're dealing with it.

• 49:32Tim Ferriss?

  Your choice is, do you want to deal with it head on in the sunlight? Or do you want to have have it come oozing out of the corners in the darkness where you can't contend with it in a direct or systematic way? So you're dealing with it no matter what. The question is, how are you dealing with it? And

• 49:54Brené Brown?

  Great, Jungian saying, keep your shadows in front of you. They can only take you down from behind.

• 49:58Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I like that. I like that.

• 50:00Brené Brown?

  Yeah, you're dealing with it. Like, like, here's the thing. Emotion and cognition, undefined and unexplored, drive every decision you make.

• 50:12Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 50:13Brené Brown?

  I mean, you either develop self-awareness, or these things control you. Like, I mean, it's, but it's really, I have to say that it can, as someone who chooses affect or affect words carefully, it can be terrifying for people.

• 50:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Brené Brown?

  But rarely does anyone around them who knows them, like you with your friend, say, oh, my God, I'm shocked to hear this when the reveal comes out.

• 50:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 50:41Brené Brown?

  You're like, your whole life has been defined by this.

• 50:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and I would, I would also like to say, and this is, this has just been my experience and my experience observing a pretty decent sized group of close friends who have had this realization in the last, say, 10 years, that the process of becoming curious about your subconscious programming and the old scripts and the armor can feel messy, and it probably will be messy, and it'll feel terrifying. But not all changes need to take 20 or 30 years. Like, some changes can In my personal experience, at least, I had some terrible things happen to me as a kid.

• 51:24Tim Ferriss?

  And in the last, say, five years, with the right tools and the right prompts and the right books and the right accountability partners, like my girlfriend, who's a very well-developed empath and a very clean fighter, which is really important. Huge. Huge. And one thing that she does really well that has been instrumental for me, she's been the clearest mirror, maybe, I've ever had, in the sense that I have my stuff, she has her stuff, I have my scripts and my sensitivities, many of which are out of date. And we set time to do what we call batching.

• 52:03Tim Ferriss?

  So rather than having lots of interspersed criticisms or constructive pieces of feedback that may not be taken the best way by me, especially at 3:00 PM on a weekday, we'll set time aside to sit down and we will take turns. And this is a format, it may not be the best format, but it's something we came up with that works for us, where we'll tell the other person what they're doing well, like what they're really doing well, what we think we are doing well. And then we'll ask for what we would like more of. And in that format, you can start to spot patterns, right?

• 52:47Tim Ferriss?

  And so if you do that once a week or every two weeks, sort of things come up. I'm like, oh, well, the first time you said that, I thought it was just an exception. But now I realize that is a pattern that I have. When X, Y, and Z happens, I go, uh-uh, like, let's talk about it later. Don't want to deal with it now. And I sort of shove off certain types of topics or questions. And then you can begin to experiment with working on alternatives. And the reason I'm saying all this is just because I don't want people to feel like the curiosity, if you're willing to take that first step, about your patterns, your programming, these out-of-date strategies in armor, does not necessarily lead to you trying to run an ultramarathon with a blindfold on.

• 53:33Tim Ferriss?

  Like, there are actually tools and resources and books and methods that can be really, really, really helpful in short order. And...

• 53:43Brené Brown?

  You'll be surprised. I mean, it's really like, it's like putting off the mammogram or, you know, prostate check or whatever it is that you have to do, putting it off, putting it off. All the shit you make up about it, all the scary stories, you collect as many horrible things as you can, and then you go and you're like, wow, the fear leading up to this was so much greater.

• 54:03Tim Ferriss?

  So much worse.

• 54:03Brené Brown?

  I mean, I'm not saying it's not gonna hurt, it's gonna hurt, but I do think, I mean, the two hacks that we have, Steve and I have been together for thirty-two years, dated off and on for seven years, then married for whatever the delta is there, twenty-five or whatever, we're married now. Um, hardest thing I've ever done.

• 54:21Brené Brown?

  Hands down, hardest thing I've ever done. Y'all hear me out there? Hardest thing. Um, he and I both come from our parents', marriages on both sides, divorce, remarried several times, shit shows, we had no idea what it was supposed to look like, right? We just were willing to keep showing up, and the conversations like you and your girlfriend have, we do that too. It's uncanny how similar it is. Yeah.

• 54:48Tim Ferriss?

  It's amazing.

• 54:49Brené Brown?

  Yeah, especially what we want more of, what's really working. I really appreciated this this week. Um, we try not to, if it, unless it needs to be done in real time, we'll usually wait until we're in a good place to do it, you know, and, and, and I, I don't know, I don't think that he saw dirty fighting, but all I saw was dirty fighting. I'm like, you know, shame, humiliation, put downs, you know, stuff that leaves marks, stuff that you can't, and I, and I can default there when I'm in like a powerless corner, I can come out like mean. I know it's hard to believe, but no, it's really not, I know.

• 55:23Tim Ferriss?

  Throwing elbows and head butts.

• 55:24Brené Brown?

  Yeah, no, for sure. I can come out, and verbal ones that really are way more serious than a physical headbutt.

• 55:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Brené Brown?

  The other, the other two hacks that I think have saved our marriage, um, besides just showing up and kind of using some of these things, like what's working, what was hard, is the eighty-twenty. So, everyone says marriage should be fifty-fifty. It's the biggest crock of bullshit I've ever heard. It's never fifty-fifty.

• 55:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 55:49Brené Brown?

  Ever. And so what we do is we quantify where we are. So if Steve comes home and he'll be like, I got twenty.

• 55:56Tim Ferriss?

  Just in terms of energy.

• 55:58Brené Brown?

  Just energy, investment, kindness, patience. I'm at a twenty. And I'll be like, I'll cover you. I got you, brother. Like, I'll pull the eighty. Sometimes we come home, which we have done a lot. My mom has been sick. And I'll say, I've got ten. And Steve, you know, Steve, like, two days ago said, I'm riding a solid twenty-five. So we know that we have to sit down at the table anytime we have less than a hundred combined and figure out a plan of kindness toward each other.

• 56:27Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I love that.

• 56:28Brené Brown?

  Yeah, because the thing is, marriage is not something that's fifty-fifty. A partnership works when you can carry their twenty, or they can carry your twenty. And that when you both just have twenty, you have a plan where you don't hurt each other.

• 56:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, because you're a threadbare.

• 56:44Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and so, so what we'll say is, I'm like, I've got ten. And he'll be like, I got maybe twenty-five. We're like, put all the groceries that are supposed to be great and healthy in the freezer. We're ordering out. Get the housekeeper here an extra day. And we're canceling anything with people that we really actually don't like.

• 57:04Tim Ferriss?

  So how can we create some buffer in the system?

• 57:06Brené Brown?

  No, we do that. So like, and then, you know, then we'll like, a day or two later, I'm like, he'll be like, I'm riding a sixty. I'm like, oh, my God, work is kicking my ass. I'm still at a twenty. He's like, I got you, but we're a spare twenty. So, you know, let's ask Charlie if he wants to skip water polo practice today, and let's all turn in at eight o'clock. Like, huge. The other thing I would say, too, that now I'm thinking about that, is we made a determination very early. There's kid-focused families, parent-focused families, and family-focused families. We're a family-focused family. So that means that if you want to do water polo, Eagle Scouts, tennis, and skeet shooting,

• 57:45Brené Brown?

  and then that comes to the family. And the family agrees what will keep the family healthy. Like, we can, we, you know, I've got a book launch, I've got this, Steve's got patients, he's taking on others, you know, he's a pediatrician, he's doing this. So what works for our family right now is you can do two extracurriculars. And I'm going to have a two-week tour, not a four-week tour, but we put the family as the system that we serve.

• 58:11Brené Brown?

  It's not the kids at the parents' cost, or the parents at the kids' cost. It's the family. And it is...

• 58:17Brené Brown?

  It is remarkable.

• 58:19Tim Ferriss?

  How do you weigh, if you do it all, the, the voting system, so to speak, right? So if you all come to the table, does everyone have equal vote in the decision-making process?

• 58:33Brené Brown?

  No.

• 58:34Tim Ferriss?

  No?

• 58:34Brené Brown?

  No, this is dictatorship. Yeah, like, yeah. No, fix my mind. Oh, no, yeah, no, like, we don't even bullshit around that. It's like when my kids, like, if I say, like, oh, shit, and my, my kids are like, ooh, you can't say that. I'm like, I can say anything I want. You can't say that, and when you're old enough, you can do whatever you want.

• 58:49Tim Ferriss?

  When you get your cursing license.

• 58:50Brené Brown?

  Yeah, we, yeah, you, but right now, I, I can totally do that. Um, watch me. Um, but it's, so we have very, we talk to our kids about everything. We're super open. Steve and I both have veto power, and we rarely use it. I bet, I, I bet I've pulled out my veto card once in the last five years.

• 59:09Tim Ferriss?

  Veto meaning kid says, I want to do X, and you say, can't do it.

• 59:13Brené Brown?

  Or Steve.

• 59:13Tim Ferriss?

  Or Steve.

• 59:14Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I'm like, I, I have to veto that. I cannot do that. And then we really respect the veto, because we don't overuse it. So our, our thing with our kids, this is my theory on parenting. My, my theory on parenting is the best we can do is a loving course from compliance to commitment. That your kids need to do what you're asking them to do out of compliance. So don't run into the street, don't do this, that's, that's, you know, you're not allowed to watch that kind of TV. You're not allowed to play that kind of video game. You need to comply, otherwise there's some natural consequences. At some point, I've, I've got a 14-year-old now, he, he's at other people's house doing video.

• 59:55Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 59:55Brené Brown?

  And so if all I teach him is compliance, and don't give him the why about why you can't do that. If I don't say yes every time I can and explain the no's, then when he's there, and I can tell you that, like, we got a call from a parent maybe a month ago and said, the boys were having a sleepover. They wanted to watch, I know, some R-rated violent thing, and Charlie said, can we watch something else? You know, my parents are not cool with this. And he couldn't, he didn't have to do that.

• 1:00:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Brené Brown?

  But he's moved to a commitment to our family values, because we say yes every time we can. We don't do any of that stuff that my parents did because I said no. We explained. So in the voting process, we'll sit down and say, here's the fall semester. Charlie's like, I've got guitar, I've got, you know, this, I've got this, and I've got this, and I'd really love to do this. And Steve's got, here's what my fall looks like, you know, we still keep time in semesters. Here's what my time looks like. We're going to be able to do two curriculums. You can choose.

• 1:00:53Brené Brown?

  Why not? A lot of my friends are doing that. So I totally understand. Different families have different ways of operating. And it was like my daughter, when she went to high school, she's a junior now in college, but we sat down with her and said, the number of AP courses that you'll take will be limited by your time. You won't go to bed past 10. You will not miss a single dance. You will do something every weekend with friends. We will not participate in the race to nowhere. Like, you don't need to graduate with 40. And she's a super academic kid. And she's like, what? You know, and like, she's like, but I need to take this, and I need to take this. I'm like, it's not going to work that way. And then when she got to college, we were like, we're not paying for it if you

• 1:01:37Brené Brown?

  already know what you want to be. You're 18.

• 1:01:41Tim Ferriss?

  So what is that? Say more. I'd like to hear more on that. So does that mean that you wanted her to, well, actually, I'm not even going to speculate. So could you elaborate on that?

• 1:01:53Brené Brown?

  Take every class that's interesting to you. Learn who you are. Because if I had a dollar for every interview I did with a late 20, early 30-year-old that got on the engineer, lawyer, doctor path, because that was the moving escalator for smart people, who was depressed, hated what they did, never even knew that you could be a shoe designer, or casting director, or a microphone builder.

• 1:02:22Brené Brown?

  If I had a dollar for every one of those, like.

• 1:02:25Tim Ferriss?

  Set for life.

• 1:02:26Brené Brown?

  Set for life. Yeah. And I said, you need to explore. But, you know, and she's like, that's so cringey, mom, that's so, so cringey, like, everyone that freshman orientation knows exactly what they're gonna be, where they're gonna go to grad school. I'm like, that's great. That's not the way we work.

• 1:02:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Brené Brown?

  So, you know, I'm like, what are you taking? And she's like, taking a class on black power movements, Germany in the 20th century,

• 1:02:52Brené Brown?

  statistics and multivariate analysis. And I'm like, great. I mean, granted, that spells graduate school, but.

• 1:02:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Brené Brown?

  She's like, as it turns out, I don't think I want to do this, and I don't want to do that. And I'm like, super valuable. And she's like, no, are you sure it's as valuable as knowing what you do want to do? I'm like, oh, yeah.

• 1:03:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Brené Brown?

  Knowing what you don't want to do, you get to save all the part in your 30s and 40s where you hate work, you're drinking heavily, you know, like, you get to save a lot of that. Like, figure it out, nothing's wasted.

• 1:03:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I graduated from college when I was 29. I was like, go see the world, get a job, wait tables. Everyone I know is better at who's waited tables, a better human being.

• 1:03:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think everybody, everyone should have to work at least one, preferably two service jobs.

• 1:03:43Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 1:03:44Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah, you really learn a lot.

• 1:03:46Brené Brown?

  Yes. Yes, I mean, like that and like, that's what I always tell Ellen, you get one job where you're serving the public. And you not to ever, do not ever date a guy who's a dick to a waiter.

• 1:03:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm going to suggest, we could talk for hours and hours and hours, because I know we have a finite amount of time today, that we, we switch to the, the format that was anticipated.

• 1:04:12Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 1:04:13Tim Ferriss?

  And I did this previously with my friend, Dr. Peter Tia, and it was, it was fun, so I want to try it again. And it is talking about things you're excited about.

• 1:04:24Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Tim Ferriss?

  Or thinking about. Things you've changed your mind on and then silly, absurd, stupid, anything that you love.

• 1:04:35Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 1:04:36Tim Ferriss?

  Doing and.

• 1:04:37Brené Brown?

  I got my homework. I'm so glad we're gonna do this because I did, I prepped.

• 1:04:40Tim Ferriss?

  I know.

• 1:04:41Brené Brown?

  You know, I like my gold star. I'm a self-aware person, but like I still like my gold star.

• 1:04:45Tim Ferriss?

  Got my gold stars in my wallet. And so why don't we start and we'll, we'll go one from each.

• 1:04:51Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 1:04:51Tim Ferriss?

  Bucket.

• 1:04:52Brené Brown?

  Really?

• 1:04:52Tim Ferriss?

  Is that okay? Or we could do the other way? How would you like to do it?

• 1:04:55Brené Brown?

  Oh, no, I want to do it batched.

• 1:04:57Tim Ferriss?

  You want to batch it?

• 1:04:57Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:58Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, let's batch it.

• 1:04:59Brené Brown?

  Is that me like being like asserting myself into your process?

• 1:05:01Tim Ferriss?

  I'm all for it.

• 1:05:02Brené Brown?

  Okay, great. I'm good at asking for what I need.

• 1:05:05Tim Ferriss?

  Which category would you like to start with?

• 1:05:06Brené Brown?

  Oh, okay, Tim, let's take five things I've changed my mind about.

• 1:05:12Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, great.

• 1:05:12Brené Brown?

  In the last few years.

• 1:05:13Tim Ferriss?

  Wonderful. Let's do it.

• 1:05:14Brené Brown?

  Okay. And this is like a rapid fire?

• 1:05:16Tim Ferriss?

  You can, you can take as much or as little time on it as you'd like. I'll, I'll, we'll probably ask some follow-up questions, but fire away.

• 1:05:24Brené Brown?

  Five things I've changed my mind about in the last few years. Further, faster.

• 1:05:28Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:05:29Brené Brown?

  Was always my motto. How can we go further faster? How can we go further faster? And then investors started coming about five years ago and saying, can we invest in your business? I'm like, you know, when you're a thought leader, like, what does that look like? And I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. So we kind of self-funded learning platforms and ways to scale the business. Further, faster. I've learned through painstaking, weirdly, have you ever heard this? Painstaking success.

• 1:05:52Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm, I haven't.

• 1:05:53Brené Brown?

  Like, I'm the only person that like shut down businesses that were doing really well because I hated it.

• 1:05:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:58Brené Brown?

  Like, so what I've, the one thing I've changed my mind about is I'm a slower, closer kind of a person.

• 1:06:02Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:03Brené Brown?

  I'm not a further, faster person. So we've changed our Jim Collins hedgehog to scaling our own work, to creating world-class research and content and partnering with people who scale as opposed to scaling. Like, I just, like, we were hiring all these people and getting new desks. And I was like, what's happening?

• 1:06:21Tim Ferriss?

  What's happening here?

• 1:06:22Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it's like scale, the magic word.

• 1:06:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Brené Brown?

  I'm not a further, faster person. The further faster I go, the crazier I get and the slower closer I am to my real life and grocery shopping and unloading the dishwasher and loving on people, the better I am. So I'm a slower, closer person.

• 1:06:37Tim Ferriss?

  Dang it.

• 1:06:39Brené Brown?

  Number two. Sobriety is a superpower.

• 1:06:44Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:45Brené Brown?

  Yes. I thought it was like a, I never thought it was a pain in the ass. To be honest with you, I have never missed drinking. I've, I've, no, I've missed drinking five or six times in the 23 years I've been sober.

• 1:06:55Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:56Brené Brown?

  And I can't explain it to you, except it's when, when my anxiety, which I can struggle with, is so high that I feel like the only thing that will put it out is something that I shouldn't be using.

• 1:07:12Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:13Brené Brown?

  So, and I've never wanted a drink when I'm in my food zone.

• 1:07:21Tim Ferriss?

  When you're in your food zone?

• 1:07:22Brené Brown?

  Yeah. So my food zone is pretty, like my normal, and I text you about this all the time, so I always want your advice, but um, my food zone is, my food zone, not because it's a thing, but because it's my food zone, is kinda keto-y.

• 1:07:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Brené Brown?

  Yeah. So like, I'm probably insulin resistant from a lot of yo-yo dieting my whole life. And so just that kinda macro of kind of high fat, moderate protein, low carb is my jam. And I, I just feel good. So

• 1:07:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:50Brené Brown?

  I think of my keto prick, and it's binary, which I learned from you. It's like, when I text you, like, should I go slow carb? Or what are you thinking about this? And you're like, the thing about keto that you need to be careful about is the binary nature of it. You're on it or off it.

• 1:08:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you're either in ketosis or you're not.

• 1:08:05Brené Brown?

  Right. And so for me, that helps me with my, with kinda the food addiction stuff.

• 1:08:12Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:13Brené Brown?

  Cause I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm an abstainer. I'm not a moderator.

• 1:08:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Brené Brown?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:08:17Tim Ferriss?

  I totally understand. I'm the same. I'm very binary.

• 1:08:19Brené Brown?

  Yeah. And so for me, it's great. I just don't eat that stuff. It's not like I negotiate the breadbasket. I just don't eat the breadbasket. And in the big book, they talk about when you work a program.

• 1:08:29Tim Ferriss?

  Can you describe for people what the big book is? Because I had never even heard this term until yesterday.

• 1:08:33Brené Brown?

  Really?

• 1:08:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:35Brené Brown?

  Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book. And I'm not a big, I, I worked at A for the first year and then for the last 22 years, I worked my own program. It's like got components of A, but it's also got some Buddhist stuff in it and some kind of daily examine Catholic stuff in my own thing. I work my own program with some like serious accountability partners, like, but in the AA big book, they write, one of the promises of sobriety, if you stay in fit spiritual condition and do your work, is the pro, is the gift of neutrality. Where you're neither running as fast as you can away from the booze or the food, nor are you running away, you know, you're not running for it or away from it. It's just neutral. And so for me, like the breadbasket now is neutral, the wine. But my sobriety is really a superpower.

• 1:09:20Brené Brown?

  I would attribute, including my marriage and the fact that I'm proud of how I've raised my kids and my career, to the fact that I'm sober. That when shit gets hard, I stay in it. You know what I mean?

• 1:09:35Tim Ferriss?

  As opposed to trying to

• 1:09:36Brené Brown?

  numb it out.

• 1:09:36Tim Ferriss?

  dull or numb.

• 1:09:37Brené Brown?

  Yeah, work it out, work it, work out it out. Drink it out, eat it out. So I've really changed my mind of looking at it from an albatross to it's kind of a superpower.

• 1:09:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:49Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:49Tim Ferriss?

  I like that.

• 1:09:50Brené Brown?

  Bangs, I just got banged.

• 1:09:52Tim Ferriss?

  Me too.

• 1:09:54Brené Brown?

  Yours are so cute. You kind of got the curtain bang. I like it. You've got a really big curtain bang.

• 1:10:00Tim Ferriss?

  Just bangs. I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get implants, just bangs.

• 1:10:07Brené Brown?

  That's so, what are their names? Like, duck, duck.

• 1:10:10Tim Ferriss?

  Just forehead curtains.

• 1:10:11Brené Brown?

  What is that? Like, the Three Stooges?

• 1:10:13Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, exactly.

• 1:10:14Brené Brown?

  Yeah. Um, I, I changed my mind about bangs. Usually I only got bangs in my twenties.

• 1:10:22Brené Brown?

  After I broke up with some asshole. So I would be like cigarettes, wine coolers and bangs is the, always the answers to that. But

• 1:10:29Tim Ferriss?

  That could be, could be, uh, could be the next memoir.

• 1:10:32Brené Brown?

  Yeah. Really? And every woman in the world would be like, oh my God, cigarettes, bangs and a wine cooler.

• 1:10:38Tim Ferriss?

  I'm in.

• 1:10:39Brené Brown?

  Some asshole just broke up with her. Like, yeah.

• 1:10:41Tim Ferriss?

  Buy ten copies.

• 1:10:42Brené Brown?

  Yeah. Um, if you, because my last one, I've got six, but I'm gonna just share four or five. Okay. Uh, I've, one thing I've changed my mind about, this is what, or goes back to our earlier conversation. If you can't do it a hundred percent, don't bother. Yeah. Like, I was like, I'm not going to like, cook every meal at night until I can do this class I really want to do at the CIA, the Culinary Institute of America, you know? And now I'm like, you know what? My kind of pretty good fish tacos is still a family meal where we're sitting down saying grace together and, you know, like, it's good enough.

• 1:11:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:13Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I see. So it used to be, the mantra used to be a hundred percent or not at all?

• 1:11:18Brené Brown?

  Yeah. I'm not going to work out until my schedule opens up for me to work out every day at five o'clock.

• 1:11:22Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:11:23Brené Brown?

  But my schedule will never do that.

• 1:11:24Tim Ferriss?

  Will never do that.

• 1:11:25Brené Brown?

  Yeah. So like, I'm doing like, my little bands and my stuff on my phone at my house or whatever. Like, like, yeah, the hundred perfectionism is not only a defense mechanism, it's the worst procrastination tool in the whole world.

• 1:11:36Tim Ferriss?

  It's a great avoidance tool.

• 1:11:37Brené Brown?

  It's avoidance. Just real quickly, I will say, sleep, I've changed my mind about sleep. Like, why exercise? Eat well. Any of that stuff, if you're not sleeping.

• 1:11:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Brené Brown?

  Sleep is like, the best, isn't it?

• 1:11:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Brené Brown?

  But no one, no one in your thirties or twenties will believe you. And functional medicine, I've changed my mind about that. Okay, five absurd stupid things?

• 1:11:57Tim Ferriss?

  Let's do it.

• 1:11:58Brené Brown?

  Do you want to do that last?

• 1:11:59Tim Ferriss?

  I'd say, uh, no, let's, let's do the, let's do the absurd stupid stuff and then we'll go to exciting.

• 1:12:06Brené Brown?

  Okay. So this was so interesting for me, because I, as a qualitative researcher, really found a thematic analysis here. I've got some kind of unprocessed, um, problem with the British.

• 1:12:18Tim Ferriss?

  The British?

• 1:12:18Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:12:19Brené Brown?

  But, okay, so, five absurd stupid fun things I do. I wa, on movie night, I give myself a movie night, because I love movies.

• 1:12:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:12:27Brené Brown?

  I only watch movie trailers.

• 1:12:29Tim Ferriss?

  Huh.

• 1:12:30Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 1:12:31Brené Brown?

  I watch like, twenty movie trailers. I'm, don't, y'all are judgy over there.

• 1:12:35Tim Ferriss?

  Do you do it on YouTube, or how do you find the trailers?

• 1:12:37Brené Brown?

  Apple trailers.

• 1:12:37Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:12:38Brené Brown?

  Yeah, yeah, and it's like, the happiest place, like, ever. It's my, it's my, it's like, I probably, imminent light. Like, okay, so I watch movie trailers on movie night. It's so, it's, you get the whole emotional rush.

• 1:12:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:54Brené Brown?

  And narrative.

• 1:12:55Tim Ferriss?

  Without the ninety minutes.

• 1:12:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah. Um, I, this is a stupid thing I do, I really am a bad trash talker and super competitive. So whether it's like ping pong, or we play a lot of family four square, um, I play a lot of cards, I'm like, a shit talker.

• 1:13:11Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 1:13:11Brené Brown?

  Yeah, terrible shit talker.

• 1:13:12Tim Ferriss?

  You know, I can see it, I can see it.

• 1:13:14Brené Brown?

  Oh my god, yes, you can see it.

• 1:13:15Tim Ferriss?

  I can see it.

• 1:13:15Brené Brown?

  Yeah. This is a confession. Um, okay. So I'm obsessed with Rick Beato videos on YouTube.

• 1:13:23Tim Ferriss?

  Wait, who's this?

• 1:13:24Brené Brown?

  Rick Beato.

• 1:13:25Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know who that is.

• 1:13:26Brené Brown?

  He's a music producer and so he does like the best countdowns. He does these great countdowns. So the 20 best acoustical intros to rock songs and he's my age. And so like, yeah, the 20 best vocal, like, I really took a problem with it. Like I took, I like, he's a Beatles fan. So there's a lot of shit ton of Beatles in there, but, um, so like, let's just do this. Three best vocal. I'm a big music person and a big rock and roll person and Texas music person.

• 1:13:52Tim Ferriss?

  I'm about to get very much.

• 1:13:54Brené Brown?

  You're gonna get schooled.

• 1:13:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'm gonna get schooled here. Okay.

• 1:13:57Brené Brown?

  So I thought there would be only one song that could be the number one vocal introduction to a song. What would your guess would be? If you're thinking about harmony.

• 1:14:08Tim Ferriss?

  Harmony. I'm already out of my depth here.

• 1:14:11Brené Brown?

  Kansas.

• 1:14:12Tim Ferriss?

  Kansas. Okay.

• 1:14:13Brené Brown?

  Carry on, wayward son.

• 1:14:14Tim Ferriss?

  I was thinking Whitney Houston from the Bodyguard soundtrack, but.

• 1:14:18Brené Brown?

  Lord have mercy.

• 1:14:20Tim Ferriss?

  I know.

• 1:14:22Brené Brown?

  We're gonna, um.

• 1:14:23Tim Ferriss?

  I love you, Whitney.

• 1:14:24Brené Brown?

  I love you, Whitney, too, but this is Austin, Texas.

• 1:14:26Tim Ferriss?

  I know.

• 1:14:27Brené Brown?

  And I'm gonna take you out one night and we're gonna watch some Rick Beato videos.

• 1:14:29Tim Ferriss?

  I'm ready.

• 1:14:30Brené Brown?

  Okay. Yeah. So it was, he did Queen Bohemian Rhapsody, which I think good. Kansas was three. Paperback Rider from the Beatles was two. I just take exception. So I watch all those. Best acoustical guitar intro, all that's all of like the seventies.

• 1:14:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Brené Brown?

  Like Jim Croce and stuff. Best electric guitar. I still have some issues with some of his, but I walk, watch a lot of rock Beato, Rick Beato videos. Okay.

• 1:14:52Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, wow. Paper Goes Down.

• 1:14:54Brené Brown?

  I'm gonna change your life.

• 1:14:55Tim Ferriss?

  You're, I'm ready.

• 1:14:56Brené Brown?

  Okay. I watch a lot of British crime procedurals.

• 1:14:58Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 1:14:59Brené Brown?

  Okay. Like, yeah.

• 1:15:01Tim Ferriss?

  Crime procedural.

• 1:15:02Brené Brown?

  Like, you know, like a, you know, like Law and Order, but British.

• 1:15:05Tim Ferriss?

  Uh huh. Yes.

• 1:15:06Brené Brown?

  I watch like a ton.

• 1:15:08Tim Ferriss?

  A ton.

• 1:15:08Brené Brown?

  Yes. Gogglebox.

• 1:15:10Tim Ferriss?

  Goggle.

• 1:15:11Brené Brown?

  Have you watched this?

• 1:15:12Tim Ferriss?

  No, I've never heard of it.

• 1:15:13Brené Brown?

  Okay. It's, I think it's all over like a different countries now, but I watch the UK Gogglebox. It's where you watch people watching television.

• 1:15:22Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, it's like response videos. So you get to see how they respond.

• 1:15:26Brené Brown?

  And they, and you, you fall in love with these families. Someone's obsessed with British crime procedurals and Gogglebox.

• 1:15:31Tim Ferriss?

  Gogglebox.

• 1:15:32Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 1:15:33Tim Ferriss?

  Also sounds like a near future dystopian technological like Terminator kind of thriller.

• 1:15:39Brené Brown?

  It does, but it's better.

• 1:15:40Tim Ferriss?

  Gogglebox.

• 1:15:40Brené Brown?

  There's no action at all.

• 1:15:44Brené Brown?

  It's just like these like kind of normally, normal, ordinary British families going, oi. I mean, and you're like, I just laugh really hard. And then TikTok, I've spent a lot of time watching TikTok.

• 1:15:55Tim Ferriss?

  Really? Oh, yeah, I do get sent. I TikTok for me, I, it's kind of like, I feel like someone's peeking around a corner. Late at night going, hey, heroin, $10.

• 1:16:05Brené Brown?

  No, yes.

• 1:16:06Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm just like, I can't, I'm afraid to go on TikTok because I, I can understand why I would get hooked.

• 1:16:15Brené Brown?

  You have to, on my Instagram, I just put my favorite TikTok.

• 1:16:18Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 1:16:19Brené Brown?

  All right, let me do it with you. Let me ask this question.

• 1:16:23Brené Brown?

  Would you rather eat?

• 1:16:25Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:16:25Brené Brown?

  A baby goat?

• 1:16:28Brené Brown?

  Or a matter baby?

• 1:16:29Tim Ferriss?

  Or a?

• 1:16:30Brené Brown?

  Matter baby.

• 1:16:31Tim Ferriss?

  What's a matter baby?

• 1:16:32Brené Brown?

  Nothing's a matter, what's wrong with you?

• 1:16:34Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, my God. Is that from TikTok?

• 1:16:41Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, that is good. I get it. That is good. That is good.

• 1:16:43Brené Brown?

  Okay, so my kids say that I'm.

• 1:16:48Tim Ferriss?

  You got me hook line and sinker. Yeah, that was easy.

• 1:16:50Brené Brown?

  Please promise me, like pinky swear right now, with your pinky, that you will put a link to this specific matter baby from TikTok on my, on my episode.

• 1:16:58Tim Ferriss?

  Confirmed. Matter baby is in.

• 1:16:59Brené Brown?

  Cause this is like this Irish guy and his dad. He's like, matter baby. Okay.

• 1:17:05Tim Ferriss?

  So that's. For fuck's sake, Teddy. For fuck's sake, matter baby.

• 1:17:09Brené Brown?

  They say that more than I do.

• 1:17:11Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I guess.

• 1:17:12Brené Brown?

  They're good. The Irish are good.

• 1:17:13Tim Ferriss?

  Undervalued phrase.

• 1:17:14Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 1:17:15Tim Ferriss?

  That was excellent. So excited about.

• 1:17:19Brené Brown?

  Okay. Excited about two big things for 2020. One is that I am taking a visiting professorship at Texas McCombs at UT.

• 1:17:30Tim Ferriss?

  Whoa.

• 1:17:31Brené Brown?

  University of Texas, Austin. Yeah, hook them.

• 1:17:32Tim Ferriss?

  High five. That's amazing.

• 1:17:34Brené Brown?

  So I'm gonna do, be there for a year and I'm bringing Dare to Lead to UT Texas McCombs. And so we're gonna do our trainings out of the University of Texas, more research, develop some cloud-based tools for organizations to use. It's really exciting.

• 1:17:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Go ATX.

• 1:17:48Brené Brown?

  Go ATX and UT.

• 1:17:50Tim Ferriss?

  I know. Amazing.

• 1:17:51Brené Brown?

  Um, podcast, the new podcast historian. I'm really excited.

• 1:17:56Brené Brown?

  Um.

• 1:17:57Tim Ferriss?

  What is the name of your podcast?

• 1:17:59Brené Brown?

  Unlocking Us.

• 1:17:59Tim Ferriss?

  Great title.

• 1:18:00Brené Brown?

  Very much. Thank you very much. What we were talking about, right?

• 1:18:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Brené Brown?

  Super excited about less travel because I feel like the podcast may be a way for me to do that. Um, that will eat you up.

• 1:18:11Tim Ferriss?

  Travel.

• 1:18:12Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:12Tim Ferriss?

  I'm so excited to be parking here in Austin for a few months straight. I'm thrilled about it.

• 1:18:19Brené Brown?

  It's a big deal.

• 1:18:20Tim Ferriss?

  And I look back at, say, my twenties, when all I wanted to do was travel.

• 1:18:23Brené Brown?

  Me too.

• 1:18:23Tim Ferriss?

  And after a while, you're like, oh, I feel like George Clooney in that movie Up in the Air.

• 1:18:30Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 1:18:31Tim Ferriss?

  I'm beginning to feel like I'm never quite unpacking. And I don't like this feeling.

• 1:18:37Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:37Tim Ferriss?

  And there's a lot to be said for seeing new places and so on, but man, do I love the sort of energetic conservation of just having a nice routine.

• 1:18:46Brené Brown?

  But don't you think routine will set you free?

• 1:18:48Tim Ferriss?

  I do. Absolutely.

• 1:18:49Brené Brown?

  I do too. Like, yeah. So I'm excited about a new work thing that we're doing where 30% is leading my team and my organization. 70% is white space creative time.

• 1:18:59Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. Wow.

• 1:19:00Brené Brown?

  We'll see if we can make it happen, but we're.

• 1:19:02Tim Ferriss?

  That's great.

• 1:19:02Brené Brown?

  It's a big.

• 1:19:03Tim Ferriss?

  That's a big percentage.

• 1:19:03Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:04Tim Ferriss?

  What are you hoping to do with that 70%? Or do you have any idea what types of?

• 1:19:08Brené Brown?

  I'm working on new research.

• 1:19:10Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:10Brené Brown?

  Big research. And so it's hard research on um, human experience. And so I, I love that. Like, my happy place is like alone with my data. Like, that's.

• 1:19:22Tim Ferriss?

  Curled up watching, curled up with your data.

• 1:19:24Brené Brown?

  Yeah, like snuggling with my data.

• 1:19:26Tim Ferriss?

  Watching movie trailers.

• 1:19:26Brené Brown?

  Yes. And TikTok on the side. Yeah.

• 1:19:31Brené Brown?

  Um, I'm gonna do one more TikTok to you before we leave.

• 1:19:35Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I'm ready. I'm ready for it.

• 1:19:37Brené Brown?

  It's gonna be fun. Okay. Um, I'm gonna work on a new book. I'm gonna write more. I'm going to think about, I mean, the podcast is gonna take a lot of creative white space for me because I want to be really thoughtful.

• 1:19:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:51Brené Brown?

  I feel like you're really thoughtful, like you think through what you want to talk to people about. And I want to do, like, we have our discernment lens for the podcast for success for us is contribution. And so if at any point I feel like a book will not make a contribution, I pull it back.

• 1:20:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Brené Brown?

  If at any point I feel like this is just contributing to all the bullshit and the noise, I'm going to pull it back. So I think in order to meet that discernment goal of contribution, I have to be really thoughtful. And I say, I think that's going to take creative space.

• 1:20:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I think I think you'll do great. I also think you have a, you have an attunement to other people's emotional states that elicits a lot of very vulnerable truth. And I think if you have that, you're set. As far as contribution, I think that checks the box. There's some of that, certainly there are a million plus podcasts. So there, there's some of that out there, but to get it consistently, I think is still quite difficult.

• 1:20:48Brené Brown?

  I think it is hard.

• 1:20:49Tim Ferriss?

  As an audio listener, if you're looking for those raw moments of truth and messiness within which you can find and learn so much, I think you are very gifted at doing that. So if you, if you do that consistently, I think you're in good shape.

• 1:21:02Brené Brown?

  Thanks. I'll come to you for mentoring.

• 1:21:05Brené Brown?

  I will.

• 1:21:05Tim Ferriss?

  I will make no claims to have good answers, but I can, I can certainly make up some answers and do my best.

• 1:21:11Brené Brown?

  Okay, one last for TikTok?

• 1:21:12Tim Ferriss?

  Let's do it.

• 1:21:13Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 1:21:16Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I'll hold this. Oh, wow, it's a graphic TikTok.

• 1:21:23Brené Brown?

  What is this?

• 1:21:25Tim Ferriss?

  What is that? Looks like to me, looks like a butterfly.

• 1:21:30Brené Brown?

  Okay, what, what are these?

• 1:21:32Tim Ferriss?

  Wings.

• 1:21:33Brené Brown?

  Okay, and what is one called?

• 1:21:36Tim Ferriss?

  A wing.

• 1:21:36Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 1:21:39Brené Brown?

  Put your finger down.

• 1:21:43Brené Brown?

  And then give me two thumbs up.

• 1:21:46Brené Brown?

  Get closer to me.

• 1:21:58Brené Brown?

  Now, I want you to say the word that you just said to me 10 times fast. Wing, wing, wing, wing, wing, what? Hello?

• 1:22:07Tim Ferriss?

  Wow. All right, TikTok.

• 1:22:12Tim Ferriss?

  First one's on us.

• 1:22:16Tim Ferriss?

  That was good, that was good.

• 1:22:19Tim Ferriss?

  No, I'm not, I'm not.

• 1:22:23Tim Ferriss?

  Wing, wing, wing, wing. Please tell me there's an, like an Elmer Fudd somewhere in that TikTok. There should be.

• 1:22:29Brené Brown?

  There has to be.

• 1:22:30Tim Ferriss?

  There should be like an animated remix with Elmer Fudd.

• 1:22:33Brené Brown?

  There has to be, yeah. That's probably our age. We might be too, like, but this is my hashtag wholesome TikTok obsession.

• 1:22:37Tim Ferriss?

  I like it, I love it. Uh, well, I'm so happy that you're gonna be spending more time here in Austin.

• 1:22:43Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 1:22:44Tim Ferriss?

  How exciting.

• 1:22:45Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:45Tim Ferriss?

  And, uh, where can people learn all about your latest interests, including TikTok, your latest projects? Where can people best find you?

• 1:22:55Brené Brown?

  Uh, brenebrown.com.

• 1:22:58Tim Ferriss?

  All of the things.

• 1:22:59Brené Brown?

  All the things.

• 1:23:00Tim Ferriss?

  brenebrown.com.

• 1:23:02Tim Ferriss?

  So nice to see you again.

• 1:23:03Brené Brown?

  It's so nice to see you too, it was so fun.

• 1:23:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so to be continued.

• 1:23:06Brené Brown?

  Yeah, oh, yes. To be continued.

• 1:23:09Tim Ferriss?

  And for everybody who's watching or listening, you can find show notes, links to everything we've talked about, including the promised TikTok videos, in the show notes at tim.blog/podcast.

• 1:23:21Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered, it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the, uh, the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles. That I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 1:24:03Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Last year, I focused on dramatically improving a few things. Surprise, surprise. Most notably, the quality of my sleep, which seems to affect just about everything. This led me to revisit, you name it, my daily routine, morning routine, exercise, diet, all the way to what I slept on. And I ended up getting all new beds here in Austin, Texas, including mattresses from Helix Sleep.

• 1:24:47Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:25:32Tim Ferriss?

  Get up to 125 off at helixsleep.com/tim. That's helixsleep.com/tim for $125 off your mattress order. Take a look. Helixsleep.com/tim.

• 1:25:49Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Brave, the next-generation web browser. I love Brave. And if you haven't heard about it, here is the skinny. Brave was built by a team of privacy-focused, performance-oriented pioneers of the web. And I do mean pioneers. Brave was co-founded by Brendan Eich, E-I-C-H, and Brian Bondi. Brendan was previously the co-founder of Mozilla Firefox and the creator of JavaScript. Brave now has more than 10 million monthly active users, and I'm one of them. Why? Why would I use Brave? Because Brave gives you unmatched speed, security, and privacy. And when I say unmatched, I mean, the difference is hard to believe. And here's why. Every time you download a webpage, when you go to any webpage, you are not just downloading the text and images,

• 1:26:34Tim Ferriss?

  you are also downloading web junk. This includes trackers and scripts that run in the background, slowing your downloads and wasting your time by an average of 5 seconds per page, while also draining your battery faster and costing you extra data charges. There is a way to have the best experience web can offer, and that is by using Brave. Brave is up to six times faster than other browsers, and it's truly incredible how much faster everything is. I have used Brave, for instance, to get on airplane Wi-Fi when other browsers crash. I have used it to watch YouTube videos when it's just suspended in loading forever on other browsers. It's not subtle at all. There's a huge difference. Other browsers act like a vacuum cleaner for your data. So this is on the security/privacy side.

• 1:27:19Tim Ferriss?

  You're being profiled and tracked across the web. So what, you might ask? Well, data collected about you can be used to manipulate both your decisions and country-wide decisions like elections. And if you want more on that, listen to my episode with Tristan Harris. Brave is a way to protect yourself and remove the surveillance economy. Brave also includes options, which I use quite often, such as Private Window with Tor for those seeking advanced privacy and safety. This browser feels intuitive. It's super easy to use. You can import your bookmarks with one click and all your favorite Chrome extensions are also available with Brave. And it doesn't have to be either or. You can use multiple browsers for different things. Now, listeners of this show, The Tim Ferriss Show, can easily upgrade their browser for

• 1:28:04Tim Ferriss?

  free. And all you have to do is go to brave.com/tim. That's brave.com/tim. I use Brave all the time and I strongly suggest that you at least test it out. So, go to brave.com/tim and give it a shot.