Mark Cavendish: An Intimate Conversation With The Greatest Sprinter In Cycling History

Even in your darkest moments, the potential for redemption lays in wait. Mark Cavendish is a living illumination of this truth—a man who bounced back from career-ending setbacks and a protracted battle with mental health to become the greatest sprinter in cycling history. Over the course of his storied career, Mark has taken home 55 Grand Tour stage victories, 162 professional victories, and has won an astonishing 34 stages of the Tour de France, tying a previously thought impossible-to-match record set almost 50 years ago by Eddy Merckx. At the pinnacle of his career, Mark suffered a debilitating crash, began to battle seemingly insurmountable health obstacles—a debilitating crash, disordered eating, depression, and Epstein-Barr—that took him out of elite performance contention for nearly five years. But instead of ending his career, Mark fought back. In an extraordinary comeback Tour de France in 2021, Mark won four stages and the green jersey nearly a decade after he had last won it—a meteoric rise, fall, and resurrection beautifully portrayed in the recent Netflix documentary, Mark Cavendish: Never Enough. This is a powerful and revealing conversation about grit, commitment, mental health, and the hard-wrought journey to success. In addition to discussing his new Netflix documentary, we recount the highs and lows of Mark’s incredible career, his battle with mental health, and his unique relationship with cognitive performance strategist Dr. David Spindler. Mark also shares his new relationship with goals, and how he manages the pressure to eclipse Eddie Merckx’s historic record by winning his 35th stage at the 2024 Tour de France, where he will compete against riders nearly half his age. I found Mark to be humble and grateful—a gentle champion with a firm grasp on what is truly important and why. My hope is that Mark’s story serves as a powerful reminder that taking responsibility for your mental health is crucial, and that no matter how far you’ve fallen, there is always hope to build a better future for yourself and others. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: AG1: drinkAG1.com/RICHROLL Birch: BirchLiving.com/RICHROLL Babbel: Babbel.com/RICHROLL BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/RICHROLL Whoop: Whoop.com/RICHROLL Indeed: Indeed.com/RICHROLL Roka: Roka.com/RICHROLL Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  My job is to win.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  And here comes Mark Cavendish. Mark Cavendish is gonna do it! Mark Cavendish takes the title again!

• 1:12Rich Roll?

  Mark Cavendish is the greatest sprinter in the history of cycling.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  That was just a piece of magic. Mark Cavendish, one of the most successful sprinters of all time.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  I'm still doing what I love as a job, but you forget that you're doing what you love as a job.

• 1:30Rich Roll?

  Mark has won in astonishing 34 stages of the Tour de France.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  If you put it into the kind of context of what a race is, you learn from positives and negatives, don't you? I've had good luck before, bad luck now. That's life, that's bike racing, you know?

• 1:46Rich Roll?

  How are you feeling about the season that lies ahead?

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, good. If I do everything I can do, to the best that I can do it, then I'm happy. There's a pressure to winning, and it's how you deal with that that is the biggest factor between first and second. There's so many little things about a sport that just make it beautiful.

• 2:07Rich Roll?

  It's a different kind of race this year.

• 2:13Rich Roll?

  Thanks so much for doing this, man.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  No worries.

• 2:15Rich Roll?

  It's a pleasure to meet you. I'm honored that you made the time. I can't imagine how you feel right now. You were in Japan yesterday.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24Rich Roll?

  I don't know what time it is for you right now, but you did a criterium like Sunday, right? Today's Monday.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so weird like leaving Japan and then arriving here before I left. It's like being in a sci fi movie.

• 2:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  You know, I've never like skipped a day. Normally always between Europe, aren't I? So.

• 2:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  We see how long we go before I'm like hitting the mic.

• 2:45Rich Roll?

  Well, we'll go easy on you, man. We're all friends here. Um, and we're in this very unique auto garage, uh, because you couldn't make it across town. So I'm glad we could accommodate it. I know you do, I mean, obviously you do a ton of media, but you haven't done a ton of this kind of media, these types of podcasts. So, you know, I appreciate you being open to it.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  That's no problem. I don't actually do that much media anymore.

• 3:07Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  We have media commitments. We have to do round racing, but I don't really do even that much media anymore, really.

• 3:14Rich Roll?

  How has the Netflix documentary being out there kind of changed how people interface with you? Like average people who aren't gearheads.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Do you know what? Like it, it thrown me because it's been so overwhelmingly positive. Like nothing's ever really happened to me positive without something negative to kind of.

• 3:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Counterbalance it, you know? And it's been quite overwhelming. Like I wanted to just lock myself in the garage for two months. Cause like I just said, like, ah, you're waiting for, okay, can't be something good without.

• 3:46Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. The backlash.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, uh, I think mostly was like quite laying myself bare. You know, as a sports person, you don't, I guess the best way to describe is you play a character, don't you? You know, like not necessarily two fans and that, but your rivals, you know, especially as a sprinter, you have to, there's, there's a certain.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  A stereotype that goes with that. And it's a lot of mind games as well as physical.

• 4:11Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Just to lay my real self out there, flaws and all, it's quite, I feel a bit exposed actually, you know? Like, not in a bad way. It's not like, ah, terrified, but I just kind of wanted to close myself off from the world and that.

• 4:27Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. I mean, I think two observations on that. The first thing is just your openness to even doing it. Like, I was curious if that decision was made when you thought you were going to retire. Because it's one thing to do something like this post-career, to open yourself up and to be vulnerable on that level. You know, sort of like how Beckham did recently with his, with his thing. But for you to be still in the sport and like reveal a side of you that perhaps there's an aspect of your competitive nature that wishes, you know, people didn't know. It's not surprising that you feel that way. But I also think, my second observation is that that is an extension of all the work that you've done

• 5:10Rich Roll?

  on your mental health, to feel okay about putting that out there, like this exploration and vulnerability and realizing that it doesn't need to negatively impact your performance. And in fact, you know, evidence has shown that it's made you stronger and more resilient and has contributed to your longevity in the sport.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. We've talked about the stuff with the film, with everything that happened in the film. It was quite organic, actually. Like, actually, when we decided to do something, it was kind of before all that stuff happened. And then just it completely changed because all that happened.

• 5:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, so it's been going on for a long time, making it, yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  There's a lot more impact with it now anyway than what we're just being a

• 5:54Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Highlights in my career, really, you know?

• 5:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's a documentary about mental health. That's what it is.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Especially now, it's talked about a lot more, which is, which is great. So you don't mind it there. Actually, like, the biggest thing I say is that from My personal view of mental health, like before I suffered, I'd thought it was an excuse. You know, like, in fact, there's actual things I see in some of my competitors in the past that if I knew then what I know now, like, I perhaps preyed on problems that some of my competitors had without knowing. But like I said, I thought, just snap out of it. Like,

• 6:37Speaker 01

  like, what's wrong with you? Like, I'm not glad I I I suffered and suffered. Like, I wouldn't wish it on anybody. But at least I can understand and not just someone that wasn't thought about it. I really thought it was an excuse.

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just pull yourself up, out of the gutter. What's your problem? It's all in your mind. Move forward.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. So now I can really talk about it with experience, like take it seriously. Like, I for one was not one that not not I wasn't even

• 7:09Speaker 01

  didn't think about it. I just didn't take it seriously at all.

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  As somebody who's who's been doing this for a very long time, I'm sure you've gotten really good at figuring out what your competitors weaknesses are. You're going to exploit those physically, but like, how can you exploit those mentally? Right? With, you know, how you're interacting with these people. Uh, does it? Does it make you less inclined to do that? Or are you still able to kind of deploy that?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  No, a lot less, like cliched smack talk, say, do you know, which was something I employed quite a lot in the past. I just don't do it now. Just any negative negativity is as a whole. Do you know when they say like, when you when you're a kid, like you make yourself better to be better. Don't make people worse for you to be better. Like, it's that on a on a grown up level, I guess. Do you know what I mean?

• 7:54Rich Roll?

  I mean, you're a grown up, you know, and you actually seem like you seem like a much happier person, like a more grounded person. You're approaching the sport more from a perspective of joy and gratitude than just being like on that like edge where winning is everything. And it's so interesting that the documentary is called Never Enough, right? Like, I'm sure your definition of that has changed from, you know, how you might have thought of that in earlier years.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Have to kind of think back and think what I was thinking. It's hard to do that because it's just you.

• 8:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  You know, like when you, when you have to kind of explain who you were, what you, it was just you. So you don't really know. You just know. Like with everything in life, like with a race, if you put it into the kind of context of what a race is, you learn from positives and negatives, don't you? If you win, even though you've won, you might still have made mistakes or you might have done something new and you learn, you, you, you, you put that into, into play the next time you go out. And more importantly, when you don't win, like you learn from, from what you did wrong and try and put that into practice next, next time. And life's a lot like that, I guess.

• 9:06Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  You learn, the older you get, the, the wiser you are, of course.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  The best thing for, for learning moving forward is making mistakes, you know, or, or doing things maybe you know, you don't necessarily regret them, but maybe you think back, oh, I would have done that different. And then you have kids as well and

• 9:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that changes.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  That changes, yeah, exactly, exactly what life is all about and why you do things. And I don't know. I don't know if it's growing up or it's what I've been through or what, but I'm just like, I used to harbor negativity and I actually, it served me quite well sometimes because that, it, it created a fire, but I tell you, you feel a lot lighter if you just don't harbor negativity. Can you negativity towards people or towards something you've done or right, but

• 9:56Rich Roll?

  But it's scary to let go of that. It's a very reliable fuel source, you know, and it's served you well. It's part of the equation. This is how I win. Right. And the prospect of like, hey, you're going to have to let go of that if you want to get over this hump and continue to race and you're going to have to find a new fuel source. I would imagine that's terrifying for anybody who's, who's acclimated to kind of that perspective.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, just, just enjoy it. It's kind of.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  It sounds so silly, it sounds so simple, so cliched, but if you can enjoy and appreciate every pedal rev, it makes everything worthwhile with what you're doing. I get to do what I love as a job, you know, and when I first turned professional, I realised that. But very quickly, you know, I was world champion, I won everything I did. And you forget that, and I'm still doing what I love as a job, but you forget that you're doing what you love as a job. My job is to win, you know, and that's kind of, I want to win for sure, but that pressure's put from an outside entity, you know?

• 11:06Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right, right. So you're, you're just so, literally like a month ago, you just announced that you weren't retiring and you were coming back. So how much of that decision is about like the joy piece? Like I love what I do, I love riding my bike, I love the camaraderie and being at these races versus the project 35, got to get that win and get my name up on the record boards?

• 11:30Speaker 01

  I have the record for most stage wins, like I'm joined with it, you know, I have it.

• 11:35Rich Roll?

  I'm not taking anything away from you.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, you set a goal, you try and achieve it, hopefully you do achieve it. I don't want to be like a non-playing character and just ride around the pella. And that's not fair on anybody, you know? Everything I do is always, I want a purpose for it, within everything I can control. If I do everything I can do to the best that I can do it, then I'm happy. If I know I just work hard, put myself in the best position to win. And I chose, made the decision to retire actually, just because I was happy again. Like I, I lost so much love for what I was doing, I guess. Like I forgot why I was doing it. And

• 12:18Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say I'd have ever been bitter, but if you start a career with a love of something you've done your whole life, you want to finish your career with that. And finally I've got that again. And it was like, wow, it's perfect stuff. Like fortunately I crashed at the Tour de France and... That is what it is. I was like, I've had a good look before. Bad look now. That's, that's life. That's bike racing, you know?

• 12:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was all sort of lined up for you last year. The crash took you out. By your own words, your motivation was super high and you were very positive about your prospects and how you would do. So now here we are, the next year, the Tour de France course was just unveiled. Like, how are you feeling about the season that lies ahead?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, good. We're starting out. And as I say, I've done it 20 times. So I know what to do. And it's quite nice actually, like, knowing I can build towards July. Like, it was strange for a few years that you had to fight for your place in the team to get, even get to July. So that would affect your preparation. If you have to fight, fight in quotation marks, but if you have to prove yourself to go to the tour within teams. So there's eight riders from the team go to the Tour de France. And there's thirty riders in the team. So you have to prove yourself sometimes, like, for most part of my career, it was a given I go to the tour. So I do the best thing I can to prepare for the Tour de France, for July. And there was these few years, like, where I had to

• 13:53Speaker 01

  just try and get in the team to go to the tour.

• 13:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  And to do that, you need results. And that affects your whole preparation for the tour because you're going to races. Okay, you want results in every race you go to, but obviously you can't specifically train because you're preparing for a race because you don't want.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  It's hard to, if I train hard before a race,

• 14:17Speaker 01

  like, I'm not going to do the best I can in the race. It's a tapering period. It's not the training that gets you better.

• 14:23Rich Roll?

  What are you really angling for? And this year, it's, it's all about the tour. So you don't have to worry yourself with all of these, like, early season races. And you've got a whole team that's lined up and organized around your success this year, which is, which is different. That's a new thing.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  You put it a lot more eloquently than.

• 14:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but the other thing is, the other thing is a little different is. That you meet your demons, a couple amazing people come into your life to resuscitate what everyone at that point believes to be, you know, game over for you. And at the last minute, you're selected for the tour in 2021. There's really no pressure on you because nobody expects anything from you. And you have had this experience of weathering your mental health journey and kind of coming out on the other side of that and entering that race with a kind of newfound perspective.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Before, it wasn't anything if I won, because I won. It was big if I didn't win. All I could do was lose before, whereas now, like, I really get the sense, both of myself, the people close around me, my wider fans, that it's just a bonus.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 15:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  It's a nice target to have, to stand alone, stage, and to the tour to friends, but it's like...

• 15:38Rich Roll?

  Your identity is not hinged on how you're gonna perform.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Whereas before, it was a failure if I didn't win. There's not many sports people that that happens to. It's a failure if they don't win. Like, you lose more than you win.

• 15:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  If you have a tennis match with one player versus one player, you have a 50% chance of winning. And you have 200 bike riders on a 200-kilometer circuit with variables that are just infinite, you know? Your chances of winning significantly reduce. My team boss, Alex Vinokarov, he was Olympic champion in London. He had a big crash the year before. He should have retired. And he's like, "I'm gonna win the Olympics." And I was favorite for that race, and he won. And as a boss, he's incredible, because he says, "Look, we try. That's it. All we can do is try. We put the work and we do what we can do." And he's 100% right.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  If we do everything we can do and someone's better, doesn't happen. Doesn't happen. If we do everything we can do, we put ourselves in the best chance of winning. And I think if we do what we do, then the chances of winning are quite high.

• 16:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's gotta be different to have a former rider, especially of his caliber as the team manager, as opposed to just a manager who wasn't, you know, a rider. They have a different lens on it.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  You feel a difference with a champion. There's riders. I talk in second speech, and you can talk about it a lot more broader, but in second speech, you have riders. You have good riders and they win and you have people that win a lot, you know, and it's hard to win, you know. There's a lot of riders that are always second and third, which is good. Like I said, out of Peloton, I have nearly 200 riders. Getting consistently second, third is good. The difference between getting consistently second or third and winning. To get a win, it's crazy difficult.

• 17:42Rich Roll?

  What is the difference when you look at good versus great? Like, what is the differentiator mentally? I mean, obviously, everybody's training incredibly hard and they're all gonna, you know, sort of have watts in the same range and all of that, but racing's different.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  It's dealing with pressure. Was always my answer, will always be my answer. It's your ability to deal with pressure. It might be pressure from someone else. It might be pressure from yourself, but there's a pressure to winning. And it's how you deal with that that is the biggest factor between first and second.

• 18:12Rich Roll?

  So how has your relationship with pressure changed?

• 18:15Speaker 01

  I never really felt it anyway. It's more dealing with the aftermath of that pressure that was always that that's changing what I did. If it went well, obviously, I'm I'm elated, like throwing a bouncy ball in a room, you know? Whereas the other way, I probably was angry or just over emotional the other way, you know? Lashed out at myself or other people, you know? And wouldn't sleep at night going over what happened, what happened, what happened, what happened, things like that. Whereas now, it's there's not really that like holding on to it. You move on straight away is is what it is, isn't it?

• 18:57Rich Roll?

  How much of that is a result of the work that you've done on your mental health with David Spindler and the people that came into your life at the lowest moments?

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's everything to do with it. I think it was just learning.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  What's important? We didn't do so much work as such. Like David was really good at, he's obviously explained it to me after, but he, he dropped something in, like a cue for me to work it out myself. I didn't know he was doing that.

• 19:32Rich Roll?

  Things are going off the rails. You're not winning. You've got Epstein Barr. You got no energy. You couldn't make the time cut in the Tour de France. You had to drop out. You sink into this depression. You sort of allude to some disordered eating patterns also. And it's a pretty dark hole that's starting to impact your, your marriage. Like your whole life feels like a house of cards. That's, that's falling in on itself. And this guy, David Spindler, comes out to the Isle of Man, right? And hangs out with you and just seems like he's just trying to understand you and get to know you. And it would appear from watching the documentary that a big part of the way in towards solving this problem was helping you reconnect with

• 20:17Rich Roll?

  the joy that brought you into cycling in the first place. Like when you go to the field where you first learned how to ride. And he starts to understand and see that that's what you need to recapture in order to rebuild.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, make me just realize why I ride my bike. It's as simple as that.

• 20:34Rich Roll?

  And getting you over the hump on this idea that maybe you need and could accept some help, right? Like this idea that mental health is actually a thing.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  That was a pretty big hurdle.

• 20:44Rich Roll?

  How do you crack you open on that one?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  I knew something was wrong. It was when like I went and got all the tests. The doctor, Helga, he's someone I trusted so much. I want to talk about everything that I felt, but the irony is I didn't feel anything. You try and think back and it's like thinking back into a just an abyss, really, you know? It's quite strange.

• 21:12Rich Roll?

  Just being numb and like losing that enthusiasm for life.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  And it's different to being sad, you know? I think what I used to not understand, I used to think you're just, you're just sad. Like it's not sad. It's a good way to describe it is you're sad, but you're not sad.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  It's not happy. You're just not anything. It's quite easy to see somebody who, maybe they themselves don't know something's wrong. It could be quite easy to dismiss them as like feeling sorry for themselves.

• 21:46Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  But they're not.

• 21:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, like in your case, how much of it is like a brain chemistry thing? Like there's something broken in the wiring that needs to get, you know, figured out and reconfigured on the one hand. And then on the other hand, this idea that your identity is so wrapped up in being a champion, somebody who always wins. And when suddenly that's not happening, like there's an identity crisis, like who am I? Or, you know, my purpose is to win races and I'm like a, a machine for victories. And when that's no longer the case, like.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  It's hard for me to dissect that because it's obviously observations from the people around me, you know? You don't feel like that at the time. I didn't feel like that. I still kind of don't feel like that, that I had an identity that went because I couldn't do it. I'm just me. I don't know any different to how I know, you know? It's more observations from the people who know me, you know, like, and it makes sense and I, and I wholeheartedly agree with what they say. Unfortunately, I can't analyze it.

• 22:51Rich Roll?

  Right. But what were some of the things that you began to do that, that started to, you know, allow you to claw out of it or start to see the light?

• 23:01Speaker 01

  People around you that be all and end all. Like, I'm very lucky that I had some very good people around me, you know, that were patient and just, you know, helped me put things in perspective, really.

• 23:18Rich Roll?

  Beyond your wife, your family, the two people that come to mind beyond Spindler are Vazi, who comes in as your coach and you seem to immediately like resonate with him. And it feels like he understands you and has a way of communicating with you.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  But he's just straight. He's just straight. I've always appreciated someone that's just straight. Okay, you learn as you're older. You can be straight and still be diplomatic, you know? I could say you did that wrong.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Doesn't help anyone.

• 23:48Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  You might do something wrong. Instead of just going, you did that wrong. That's it. Like, what do you gain from that? There's no point saying a negative without some sort of solution. You know, something you did, you did that wrong. You maybe could have done that there and it would have gone this way instead of that. You know, it's the same thing, but it's a positive in how you say it. And I've learned to do that by still being straight. And Vazzy was straight with me. It's quite refreshing to have someone that just tells you straight, you know?

• 24:19Rich Roll?

  And did he also, he brought a different kind of structure to your training? Like the physical part of it also?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  He brought our structure to my training. I've had a structure before, really. With that much time that I had away from cycling, really, you lose your physical ability as well, you know? So that takes a time to build up. I'd been professional by that point over a decade, like. And the resilience and that you build up over that time is compounded from years and years of kilometer after kilometer after kilometer. And having a big block off, it's like retiring and coming back from retiring. It, you know, it doesn't just happen. You have to work and I think he was able to do that. But I still don't like training instructor. I don't like how we train, like I'd rather go out and ride.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  But I understand that.

• 25:07Rich Roll?

  How is that a change and evolved as you, as you're aging up? Like in terms of recovery and just being really precise and intentional about your workouts? Is that more important than it used to be? Are you still able to bounce back?

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Now the sport's changed as well.

• 25:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  So you have to be more dialed now. When I started, hey, there was sports science, but you, there wasn't the data there is now to collect. So basically you turn professional if you won races as an amateur, that's it.

• 25:40Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Now, the majority of the Pella, they never won a race as an amateur. They're just, you can see physically from the data that they're strong. So everybody's strong. Not necessarily good bike riders. But strong. So like, the speed is just ridiculously high. The bikes are faster, so the speed's higher. And just everyone's strong.

• 26:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Like, everyone.

• 26:05Rich Roll?

  So you have to level up in terms of your training.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I'm not very good. I'm not, like, really.

• 26:12Rich Roll?

  You're just gonna ride your bike around.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13Rich Roll?

  Old school style.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, really.

• 26:15Rich Roll?

  Coffee rides.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm actually.

• 26:17Rich Roll?

  Keep some tempo, call it a day.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  I'm actually a bit of a runt in cycling, you know, I just ride my bike a lot, so.

• 26:23Rich Roll?

  But there's a whole generation of cyclists coming up who, to your point, incredibly strong, power to weight, all that kind of stuff, super dialed. They understand the technology. There's all these gadgets and trackers and there's no end to the amount of data you can collect and kind of mine to get better. But at some point, that doesn't replace experience or, you know, I mean, frankly, like, the balls to race, right? Like, all of that stuff is more instinct and experience.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, instinct more. You still have to work out. You set a plan before and you can know. The more you can go over something, the more you do something, the more it becomes instinct. You do without thinking, you know? Yeah, and that's a benefit of age, I guess.

• 27:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  You've had many scenarios before.

• 27:09Rich Roll?

  I do want to, like, indulge you with one thing. I want to show you something. Can I show you a clip?

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:36Rich Roll?

  That's an amazing moment, man.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's nice.

• 27:39Rich Roll?

  What does it bring up for you to watch that now? I mean, you're, you're so emotional. It's just this amazing catharsis where, you know, everything that led up to that, you know, finally you could kind of let it go.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Just like my wife Peter said, just holding on. It was just finally letting go of that hold on. Like it might never have come. Might not have won there and then might never be that let it go.

• 28:13Rich Roll?

  Do you think about that?

• 28:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 28:14Rich Roll?

  Had things gone just a little bit differently, like you might not have had that opportunity.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Not at all because they didn't.

• 28:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  You know, like we'd done everything we possibly could within our control to do it, you know? That's all you can do. And fortunately made for a successful race. It sounds quite unromantic to our talk about it. It's as simple as that, really. I just couldn't let go there and then like, and it did happen like that. And that's why it went like that, you know?

• 28:48Rich Roll?

  Did you just feel lighter and the confidence was there? Like the rest of the tour after kind of.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:57Rich Roll?

  You know, breaking that seal became easier and more joyful.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say I felt lighter because I didn't feel pressure anyway going into that. Wasn't like I had everything to gain and nothing to lose, you know? So it wasn't like I felt any pressure go because it was not there anyway. But I definitely felt the confidence after that. And I felt the confidence that the boys had as well. And that is a massive factor. It's always been a massive driving factor in my performance is how committed my teammates are. You know, you don't necessarily have to be the strongest. But if you're committed, you're probably better than everyone else. It's another cliche, like a strong team is.

• 29:45Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Is way stronger than a team of strong people, you know?

• 29:50Rich Roll?

  It feels like your team this year going into, into the tour is very strong. You've got your lead out sorted. You got Vinikorov supporting you. You've got Vazi, you've got all the elements, right? So that must feel good.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Got to commit, boys. I know that, which is nice and lads that know me, you know, I work. I always think you get a good sense of how a team's going to perform by. Not how they are on the bike, but how they are at the dinner table. So where we go, we stay in hotels and not quite often you'll have two, three, four teams in the same hotel.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Overnight and it can change which teams you're with and that. It's too complicated going how they do the hotels, but eh. I always think normally a team will go to dinner about the same time, finish dinner at the same time. The teams that stay longest after they've finished eating at the dinner table are usually the most, the more successful teams. As a rule of thumb.

• 30:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. But the difference between your sport and a lot of other sports is you're not training with these guys day in, day out.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a mad sport like that.

• 31:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  And even that, there's only one guy crosses the line.

• 31:05Rich Roll?

  And you've got to be simpatico with your lead out.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  So I'm smaller than most of the guys as well. So I have to trust where they're going and that's built on a lot more than just being on the bike. And I'm fortunate to have some of the best, most healthless people in the sport. During my career, you know, I'm very, very fortunate for that.

• 31:29Rich Roll?

  It is such a weird thing though, because most of the training you're probably doing alone, right? But that's nothing like the racing and nothing like the teamwork required to, you know, for you to be successful and your teammates to be successful. You come together for these camps and then you see each other at races.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  It's mad. And can you imagine?

• 31:46Rich Roll?

  It doesn't make sense, actually.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Can you imagine being a lead out guy where you know you've got to train, you've got to make yourself vomit in training by going hard?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  So that you could go and make somebody else cross the finish line first. Okay, the team's winning. There's only one rider has their name on the.

• 32:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  For me, that's incredibly special for guys that know.

• 32:11Rich Roll?

  Their job is to sacrifice themselves for somebody else.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  And they'll go out and hurt themselves at home just so they can hurt more to support you in the race. Like it blows my mind.

• 32:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there really isn't any other sport like that.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Nah, it's what's so beautiful about this sport. There's so many little things about this sport which make it. Beautiful, you know.

• 32:38Rich Roll?

  When you look at the layout for this year's tour, like where's your head at in terms of it's a different kind of race this year. It's not ending in Paris with the Champs Elysees. You're in Italy for part of it.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  It's a very challenging course.

• 32:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  For all riders. But for a sprinter, like you don't choose whether you're a climber or sprinter. It's a physiological makeup that defines if you can go uphill fast or not. Doesn't matter how much I trained. If I only trained on hills, I'd still be last up a hill or one of the last. I just wouldn't be very fast in the sprint. Yeah. Next year's Tour de France is very odd for anybody that can't go uphill decent. Like it's always hard, you know, it's never easy. It's never easy to make a time cut to finish. It's never easy. To put it into perspective, the last group on the road on a mountain day, which is normally my group, we would finish a stage in

• 33:37Speaker 01

  a faster time than the winner of what's called Le Tapis de Tour, which is a grand fondue, a massive amateur event that does one stage of the Tour de France.

• 33:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You get ringer amateurs out for that.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:49Rich Roll?

  You know, but it's a whole different tier.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's not just a just a level above. It's a complete other level above.

• 33:58Rich Roll?

  And then there's the gap between, you know, you being in that final group coming over the hill versus, you know, whoever's taking that stage. That's a huge time gap, too.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's look, sometimes it's like we're never going easy and talking. You're never doing that. But sometimes it's not as close as it might seem. Say we're likely to lose 38 minutes in that one stage on the on the winner.

• 34:30Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  But the time limit is 45 minutes.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  We're idiots if we only finish at thirty eight minutes and not forty four minutes.

• 34:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, cuz you're not, it doesn't matter.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it it's really quite done. It's calculated now. You can work out what the winner will do and then you work out how many watts per kilo you have to do on each climb, how much time you lose on each climb. And then you can work out the overall time you'd lose. So you can you can kind of ride to a

• 35:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  You still have to be able to do that. And it's it's a lot higher than even your average amateur cyclist to be able to do. It's quite calculated. It's just it's

• 35:14Rich Roll?

  It's a math equation, you know, for you. You know exactly. Yeah. And you've got, it's it's about efficiency cuz you're looking at, you know, the whole event and where you're gonna make your mark. It's not gonna be on the hill.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. I might be taking the show away from from the commentators. You know, they have to make a story about how to make it exciting, but it's not that exciting.

• 35:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, look at how much he's hurting at the back. You're just like, no, I'm doing this on purpose cuz I got, you know, in three days, I got this other stage that I'm thinking about.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  There's times when we're fighting to make the limit. There is. I can't deny that. But it's not that often, really.

• 35:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but it's still fucking hard every single day, right? The grind of like doing that day in and day out and having done it for for twenty years, like I can't imagine and

• 35:54Speaker 01

  It's a loneliness, to be fair.

• 35:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Like, even though you're not talking, you're not riding, if you're in a big bunch, there's so much going on that you're thinking about that.

• 36:05Rich Roll?

  Cuz any little thing and you go down. Yeah.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  When you're on your own, all you're thinking about is the pain in your legs. And that's actually hard. It becomes a mental thing rather than a physical thing, if that makes sense. Cuz it's all you it's all you have to to concentrate on. You have nothing else to concentrate on, you know? And it's that day in, day out of loneliness when you think everybody else is, for me, that's the always the hardest thing to overcome.

• 36:31Rich Roll?

  If you go on social media and kind of scroll through, you know, the sort of fitness influencer ecosystem, you see a lot of people talking about gadgets or some kind of supplement, or this new recovery modality, or that. My sense, though, of all the kind of super elite performers at the highest level of their sport do very little, or any of that whatsoever. It's like you train hard, you eat what you need to eat, you go to bed early, you're with your family, you try to see your friends when you can, and that's basically it. Like, is that your approach? Like, it's a very old school approach, but my sense is that, like, that's how you kind of do it.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, obviously, there's big sacrifices, but it's a pretty straightforward life. Like, it's harder for somebody that, like I said, it's my job. I get to do what I love as my job. That's all I have to do as a job, is ride my bike.

• 37:30Rich Roll?

  But at the same time, in fairness, like, that's just, it's another year of having to get out there in the freezing cold and the rain, like, ride by yourself and all of that, like, to maintain, you know, kind of the level of motivation that you need to keep doing that. It's like, it's not an easy life, even at your level.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  No, but still get to ride my bike, don't I? You know? Like, okay, you would like the choice to not go out if you didn't want to go out, but quite like going out. There'll obviously be times when I'm not gonna be loving it, but I still, every day, know I'm lucky to do what I do. Every single day.

• 38:07Rich Roll?

  At the end of this year, so there's no pronouncement about whether you're gonna keep going or not?

• 38:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:14Rich Roll?

  Are you playing that year by year?

• 38:15Speaker 01

  I don't know, really. But I'm old now. Like, I'm racing with-

• 38:20Rich Roll?

  You'll be 39 at the tour, right?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm racing with lads who, whose dad I race with. I race with their dads, you know? There's a few of them that, they're only a year older than my eldest boy, you know? It's like-

• 38:35Rich Roll?

  How do they treat you in the peloton? Like, what is their relationship with you as the old guard?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  I don't know, really. Like, I'd only be looking at it from my perspective, but-

• 38:48Speaker 01

  I'm asking like today Pagaczy, like he's won the Tour de France two times. My five year old is like his biggest fan. And he like signed jerseys and stuff for him. So I'm asking him for a signed jersey and stuff like that. So it's kind of a bit.

• 39:02Rich Roll?

  He's 25, right? He's like 25 years old.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's a good kid, like brilliant kid, that lad. I don't know, they're still my competitor.

• 39:12Rich Roll?

  If and when you you decide to, you know, call it a day for good, what does life look like? Like, would you have a sense of what you would do, where you would invest your energy?

• 39:22Speaker 01

  I don't know, I stay in the sport, that's.

• 39:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  That's for sure. I'm quite happy with my team, Astana, Kazakhstan.

• 39:29Rich Roll?

  So manager maybe in the future?

• 39:31Speaker 01

  I hope so, something like that, we'll see. I just love it. I love teaching. I love camaraderie, being with my teammates. You know what the only one thing that I don't like about my job? Having to get dressed to go for breakfast.

• 39:52Rich Roll?

  I thought you were gonna say coming and doing podcasts like this.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Hotels, like if you go away on holiday, it's nice to be in a hotel. You don't have to do your washing, make your bed, make your breakfast or dinner. When you spend 70, 80% of your year in a hotel room, honestly, like it's so nice to be at home.

• 40:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  And not have to get dressed to have breakfast. Just go down in my underwear and just make a coffee.

• 40:24Rich Roll?

  You still have to share a room at races?

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it depends what team you're in, really.

• 40:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  But I like to share a room, always have. Like I climb the walls if I'm on my own. I like to chat, joke, talk about the day, talk about other stuff. Like I like company in the room. It means a single bed instead of a double bed, but yeah, I like that company, really.

• 40:47Rich Roll?

  The other crazy thing that happened to you is this situation where your house was robbed and these people broke into your house. And from what I read, what I understand, like a guy like held you at night, had like a knife to your neck?

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Hmm, wasn't anything I wish on anybody.

• 41:06Rich Roll?

  I can't, I mean, I can't imagine. Three of them have been convicted, right? But there's still one guy who's.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:13Rich Roll?

  At large, they can't track him down.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you still did a good job, really, you know.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  It wasn't the nicest night.

• 41:23Rich Roll?

  I mean, I can't even, I can't even wrap my head around that, you know, what that must have been like.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, not nice.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Like especially it stays with you a long time after, like especially like my, my boy, he was three at the time. In the room in bed, I just, I had a crash a few days before.

• 41:44Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  I had a collapsed lung, so I'd been in intensive care a day or so. A few days later, my wife had come to pick me up. She drove me home. And yeah, so I was in bed a bit, bit bad middle of the night they came in and they beat me pretty bad, but I'm pretty happy I was there, you know. Like I had a friend who was away and

• 42:10Speaker 01

  they tied his wife and kid up, you know, and went in his house.

• 42:14Rich Roll?

  The same guys?

• 42:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't, I don't think so. I don't, I don't know. But uh,

• 42:22Speaker 01

  I count myself lucky.

• 42:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 42:27Rich Roll?

  Sorry that that happened. I can't.

• 42:37Rich Roll?

  With all that you've kind of accomplished and all the growth that you've experienced, how do you think about like the young Mark?

• 42:44Speaker 01

  There's a couple of things, but yeah, I think I'd say something, but then would that affect? You don't know which way you go with it. One, don't trust people like I was just completely trusting. And that leaves yourself quite open to be, you know, really burnt, you know?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  And that'd be a bit more, don't open yourself too quickly with people. That's something, but.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, stay humble, I think. I know when I was younger, could have been a little bit more humble.

• 43:18Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  At times, and I wish I had been. I seem like talking about before, like where I I smack talk using somebody's, what I perceived as mental weakness against him.

• 43:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  But I didn't know, you know, it's not, it's not an excuse, but at least I.

• 43:35Rich Roll?

  Also, you're, you're winning everything, right? So what does that do to a young mind when?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  When you trust people that aren't going to tell you right. Someone needs to hit you around the head and say, stop that.

• 43:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  You know?

• 43:47Rich Roll?

  Who's giving you the honest feedback? You didn't have that when you needed it early.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  No, not really. When I was pro, you know, why? It's quite common in professional sports, it's like that, you know, you're a product. At the end of the day, like, it's entertainment, you're, you're a product, you know, like, as a person, you're human, but as a sports person.

• 44:10Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  You're a commodity, you know?

• 44:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we could see this person, you know what I mean?

• 44:15Speaker 01

  I was so happy with how they did that. Like, it wasn't my film, I didn't have editing rights and that on the, on the film, you know? And I really believe the director, Alex, the producers pitched Netflix. I'm so happy they didn't make it look all shiny and like, they really showed.

• 44:34Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Flaws and how shit I can be as a person, but also how vulnerable I can be as a person, you know, they, they really showed. Showed that I was quite humble that they did that, really, you know?

• 44:47Rich Roll?

  Well, I think that's why it works, you know, and I think that's why it's meaningful. And I think that, you know, I mean, first of all, I commend you for opening yourself up to, you know, be available for that type of narrative and conversation. You could have easily said, I'll revisit this when I'm done with cycling, you know, you know what I mean?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Oh, no, it was quite hard to, to film some of it. And Alex, the director was super patient, like really, really, really patient. And I think he was incredible to be able to open up to like that. And I would stay like that and just let me do it. Cause it's hard to talk about as well, like trying to analyze.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Struggles you have can kind of put you in a dark place again, you know, and you don't mind if you can share your experiences and maybe somebody relates to it. It's worth doing then, you know. We do too much and you can, just talking negatively, it can spiral you down, you know.

• 45:58Rich Roll?

  Well, I think it's also an important piece in a, in a larger conversation around like elite athletics and, and mental health. It kind of pulls the veil on this idea that somebody like yourself or, you know, high performer X, Y, or Z, they're immune from these sorts of conditions and they operate differently than, than normal people. When in fact, like the pressures are very real and you're human, just like everyone else. And you giving voice to this gives other athletes permission to do that. Because as you know, like everyone is in this situation where they feel like if they're vulnerable, like that's gonna, that's gonna really harm their career.

• 46:42Rich Roll?

  Like if they let anybody know that they're actually hurting, that's a chink in the armor that they don't want their coach to know. They don't want their competitors to know. It might not bode well for them getting resigned or, or whatever it is.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, even if that's, it's not just them thinking that it is detrimental, because there's a lot of people that don't understand, you know?

• 47:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Like unfortunately, it's like that and it can be hard for an athlete or a non-athlete to deal with their demons, deal with what's going on or know there's something wrong, be able to do something about it. That's one, that's a struggle in itself. But when there's other people making decisions based on the perception of you, that you, you can't, it's actually more detrimental.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Like if you're trying to fight against something like exactly what I was doing.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  It wasn't like I was trying to fight against what was going on with me. I was having a battle against obstacles were put in the way. And that's the problem that that unfortunately facing there. When it's universally misunderstood, like mental health. And it's not to feel sorry, like you, it's not to feel sorry for someone. Never want anyone to feel sorry for me. Why would you feel sorry? It's not a something that's good or bad, it just is. With an understanding that you only put obstacles in a way.

• 48:14Rich Roll?

  Making it harder than it already is.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 48:16Rich Roll?

  You know, to come out and, and, and talk about these things. And I think, yeah, yeah. Sort of the, the uninformed view of kind of what happened to you when you were in your lower moments is, listen, you know, he had a good career, but it's not happening anymore. Like the train is moving on, you know, and like Mark will figure it out and do something else with his life.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  The people who thought that have never done anything that I've done. So how could they?

• 48:38Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  How could they put themselves in a position to think that? That was always my thought process. How can they say if I can do it or not? Because they've never done anything that I've done. Do you know?

• 48:49Rich Roll?

  No, I understand.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  And but they, they were the ones stopping me showing them. If that makes sense, I'm not showing them doing it. It was like you try and go forward and you, for every step you do and you're having to push.

• 49:01Rich Roll?

  The door is being shut. Like, we don't want, we don't want to hear about it. And your, your whole thing was like, you don't go from being the best in the world to suddenly like, being shit and not being able to do it. Like something's wrong.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  You can decrease steadily over time.

• 49:13Rich Roll?

  Listen, you're old, whatever, like blah, blah, blah. Like we're done with you as opposed to, well, let's try to understand what Mark is saying here. And the fact that, you know, good people came into your life who honored that. And you went on this journey with them, came out the other side and proved like, indeed, there was something wrong with you. You addressed it with the physical stuff, the Epstein bar, but also the mental stuff and came out, you know, counterintuitively, having to deal with vulnerability and mental health and all these things that, you know, you probably thought were weaknesses, coming out.

• 49:46Rich Roll?

  Not just stronger, but a more fully actualized person who's happier in their life and more grounded and like can connect with gratitude and all these sorts of things that you know, you put blinders on as an athlete to perform and realizing that, oh, that's a more sustainable source of strength for me that can power me through many more years and great successes is a really powerful contribution to how people understand not just mental health, but like athletic performance. And I think you've also sidestepped whatever kind of existential crisis you might've had in the wake of retirement, thinking, well, what am I going to do now? I'm used to this like super, you know, exciting, high level,

• 50:28Rich Roll?

  rare kind of life that nobody gets to experience. I'm probably not going to be able to have those kinds of peak experiences. Like, how do I make sense of my life? Whether you're Michael Phelps or somebody else who's coming out of a career where their identity and their whole like kind of way that they operate is based on that to suddenly being a civilian, precipitates more than a few, you know, mental health crises in like high performing athletes.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but in all fairness, I've had an idea and got into like plans in motion of what I'm doing after. I never want to just stop and like, it is always, you think, your dream is to stop. I've worked, I've been doing this since I was a kid. I'm enjoying my life now. Or like, athletes are driven. That's why they're athletes, you know? It's not just athletes are driven, but many, many people are driven. I need something, a goal, doesn't matter what it is. I need that. I just need one that allows me more time with my kids, really.

• 51:32Rich Roll?

  Cycling takes up a lot of time. The other weird thing about cycling is that like in other sports, especially really grueling ones, when an athlete, you know, finally retires, they're like, I'm done with that. Like, I don't need to do that. Cyclists always continue to ride. Like, they stay connected to the sport. You know, their love affair with the bike doesn't go away, which I think is unique and interesting.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  So dynamic cycling. Like, you can do it competitively as a sport. You can do it to keep fit on any level, spinning or...

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Ultra riding or part of triathlon. You can use it as a mode of transport. You can do it with your family. Kids go out and play in the street and it like. Like just riding a bike is just so dynamic. You you you got no. You can go. At what speed you wanna go at, you know?

• 52:27Rich Roll?

  Social too.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 52:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  You can go on your own or with people, like you said, like socially. You can go for as far you want, as fast you want. Heely flat, it it's so. You're free. I always felt free on a bike.

• 52:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  That's why I did it. I still. Feel free now, like I think if I'm not doing Vaz's efforts, like interval sessions, I I'm just thinking on my bike. If you run too slow, you're walking. No, do you know what I mean? Like bike, okay, you fall off. You can choose the speed you do that. It's brilliant, like, you know?

• 53:04Rich Roll?

  You'll always ride.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  I'll always ride. I'm not doing a triathlon though.

• 53:08Rich Roll?

  I'd like to see you swim though.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  No, mate.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  No, like. I was at the World Ironman Champ in Nuthen.

• 53:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were?

• 53:16Speaker 01

  I was like.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Blown away. It's impressive. It's incredible. But it's so stupid. It's so stupid. Put your body through that.

• 53:25Rich Roll?

  Says the guys on the Tour de France twenty times.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  I'm just one thing. I'm just riding a bike.

• 53:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  I'm trying to do that.

• 53:32Rich Roll?

  That thing's over in a day though, you know?

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you know what? Actually, more than the pros is the the people that are coming in at midnight. Like being like.

• 53:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's special.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Like however many hours, sixteen hours, whatever, like. It's easier to push through physical barriers and mental barriers, like even before I add all the problems and that. It's how far you can push yourself mentally and like.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Doing that much time like that, being out there. With just you and your body. So impressive.

• 54:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Like it's.

• 54:05Rich Roll?

  It's life changing. I mean, it's one thing to be Sam Laylow or Christian Blumenfeld or what these guys, you know, on the rivet for eight hours. Um, but the people who are coming in at twelve, it's like they're out there so many more. They're suffering. Longer, right?

• 54:21Speaker 01

  It was impressive.

• 54:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so I don't know. Maybe you're gonna.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Not a chance. My my team boss, Vino, he was world champion.

• 54:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  He won the world championships there, like age group.

• 54:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Fifty, fifty four.

• 54:33Rich Roll?

  I think you should. You should design kits with Paul Smith.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:39Rich Roll?

  He's your guy, right?

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, he just loves cycling.

• 54:42Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  He raced when he was young, like, and the nicest person you'll ever meet.

• 54:47Rich Roll?

  He's still like coming up with designs for cyclists, too.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:51Rich Roll?

  If there's one thing that you're kind of focused on and working on for this year, like, what is the hurdle you're still trying to overcome to unlock, you know, that next level of performance for yourself? Or like, what comes up? Like, this is what I really need to work on. This is my weakness that I'm focused on right now.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  I don't know, really. Like, I look at, like, last year, and I have a lot more things in place for next year than I did even last year. But, say, the Tour de France is a lot, lot, lot harder.

• 55:24Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  I have to adapt to that.

• 55:27Rich Roll?

  When they unveil the course, how does that impact? Do you have to tweak and sort of dial in your training?

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:34Rich Roll?

  To customize it?

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Not right now, but...

• 55:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:38Rich Roll?

  And any things that you have to do, like, you know, now at 39, that you didn't have to do when you were 26?

• 55:45Speaker 01

  I kind of continued to ride. Actually, taking a block of time or so. I'm in off-season at the minute. And, eh,

• 55:55Speaker 01

  when I was younger, it would be five, six weeks off the bike.

• 55:58Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Then you start again. After I hit 30, it got short and short, the amount of time I could kind of have off the bike, without it taking a long time to get back.

• 56:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Your base fitness is always there.

• 56:11Rich Roll?

  You can't let it go for too long anymore.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  You feel a lot more lethargic, don't you?

• 56:15Rich Roll?

  Is there any training that you do off the bike that's different? Like, what does the gym workout look like? The other, the sort of dry land, other things?

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Nah, I probably do less off-bike work now than I used to.

• 56:29Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  All my stuff is quite...

• 56:32Speaker 01

  On bike based, that's Vaz's thing. A lot of my strength training. There's no gym or anything like that. The, the strength works done on the bike.

• 56:40Rich Roll?

  It's all on the bike. And when you're hitting peak training, how many hours a week are we looking at?

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Thirty, thirty-five hours, yeah. There's some weeks you do fifteen hours, but very high intensity, fifteen hours, you know? It varies. The workload would probably always be relatively the same. You might do just less hours with higher intensity. I don't really know. I don't, I just ride my bike. I just ride my bike.

• 57:07Rich Roll?

  I'm trying to make it more complicated than it is. It's actually refreshing, honestly.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  I'm measuring wins really. Well, for me, I want to win, you know? Like at the times when I have to try and get in the team to go the tour, then all that stuff kind of matters, but it's for other people, you know?

• 57:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  If I know I could just be left to my own thing, own devices to be the best I could be to go the tour.

• 57:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  I know what I need to do to win.

• 57:38Rich Roll?

  It's basically getting fit enough. You know exactly what your power to weight ratio needs to be. You know what the number and you know how to get there. And you want to show up at the tour healthy, fresh and be able to strike when the opportunity arises. And efficiently ride through the rest of it so that you can basically be in the best position you possibly can for those sprint opportunities.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 58:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  It's twenty-one days, so.

• 58:05Rich Roll?

  And you can't control it. There's so many variables, right? Like.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  You know, everything you do on the first and second day, even though you will have a knock on effect on the eighteenth and nineteenth day, you know? For instance, if it was a really flat first ten days, you'd probably go in with a little bit more weight. You'd lose a weight in the first ten days before you got in the mountains. If you'd have a more powerful sprint, whereas it's hilly at the beginning, you need to be able to get to the sprint as well, so you'd. Change your body shape and that by, by, by different training, so.

• 58:38Rich Roll?

  Depending on the course.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  I'm going too complicated now that even I'm getting bored talking about it, so.

• 58:46Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna let you go in a few minutes, man, don't worry about it. Two more things I want to ask you. One is, uh, was anything left out of the documentary that you wish had been in there? Or is there any aspect of who you are that you think gets misconstrued in the press? Or that people kind of don't understand about the real Mark?

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Don't know, really, don't.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  No, I don't know if it really matters if someone who doesn't know you, who, who's never met you, will never met you,

• 59:16Speaker 01

  has a opinion on your personality.

• 59:22Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Like,

• 59:25Speaker 01

  they could be right, but most probably they're wrong about your personality, you know? For good or bad, I don't know, you know? Unless you know someone.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  Someone I know or meet. If I make them happy, that's good. If I upset them, then I, that's a problem with me and I, I should sort that out, do you know? If you're affecting somebody's life or how they are now, their, their day, then that's something you've got to address. My kids, they pretend to be the favorite

• 59:58Speaker 01

  sports person or pop star, like, that's when you understand your job as a cyclist, really, you know, if someone's, it can be a kid or it can be a even an adult, like, you know, when you go out, they, don't say you haven't done it, you, you imagine that person you've seen on TV. You, you've done it for sure, you've done it, you might have been a kid, but you, you, you imagine you're someone. That's our job. You know?

• 1:00:21Rich Roll?

  To be that person when you meet those people.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, no, when you don't meet them, so it's not your personality, it's what you do. But when you meet them, then it's important to be the person you want them to to believe you are. If you're a good person, you bring them joy. If you're not, you affect them negatively.

• 1:00:41Rich Roll?

  That's so interesting, though, because you're thinking about this not just in terms of how you perform as an athlete, but how you're perceived as a public person and the responsibility.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  I'm not talking about how I'm perceived. I'm talking about how I am.

• 1:00:57Rich Roll?

  Being the person you want. You want to acquit yourself the way that.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I understand.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  You should do it for, especially in the world now with with social media and the like, that you can manipulate who you are.

• 1:01:09Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Don't be perceived to be a good person. Be a good person, you know, like.

• 1:01:15Rich Roll?

  It's like, you shouldn't even have to say that. You know what I mean?

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  You do. I have heard things about, I met him myself, met him 15 years ago, he was a dick. I was a dick. I was. I'm not a dick now. I realize I'm a dick.

• 1:01:34Rich Roll?

  Right. Based on a 10 second encounter that you had, where that person was probably really excited to meet you and you were in a bad mood or whatever. And now his whole view of who you are was based, is based on that.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  There's someone over at another team bus with another rider. You sign 100 autographs for those 100 people. When you're down to the last three, who've been waiting there for two hours, that person has finished getting that one from there and comes and waits there. But you're done. You have to go. The bus is going. It's not, the bus has to go. And you leave. You're not being a dick.

• 1:02:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Do you see what I mean?

• 1:02:10Rich Roll?

  No, I understand. Yeah. You can't fulfill that expectation all the time.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  You can't. But there was times in the past when I could have signed 50 autographs and I didn't. I wish I knew before I kids how much that means to sign autographs. Do you know? Kids is a reason I know, but probably I was a dick for not realizing that before. Do you know?

• 1:02:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:02:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I understand. But it's also. You know, viewing that charitably, like, you know, you're probably younger and my job is to race a bike. Like, I'll sign as many as I can, but I have other things to do, too. Like, I can't just be available.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  I could make people perceive me as being nice, but it wasn't that. I was just a dick.

• 1:02:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  I have to be true for her. I didn't really care.

• 1:02:58Rich Roll?

  Right, I get it. But I don't see a dick sitting across from me right now. I see like a pretty nice grounded dude. And I guess like that leads to the final kind of question that I want to ask you, which is, you know, this podcast thing that I do, if there is like one overarching theme, it's really about growth and evolution and change. Like, how can we become better people? How can we be more fulfilled, you know, live more purposeful, meaningful lives? You know, be a little bit more compassionate and self-actualized. And when I look at kind of the changes that you've gone through and your own personal transformation and growth as not just an athlete, but as a human being and this kind of mental health journey that you went on, like, I see somebody who's who's earned their transformation.

• 1:03:42Rich Roll?

  Like, you've grown up in a lot of ways, right? And I just want to leave the audience with some thoughts about that process. If somebody's thinking about like, how can I kind of level up who I am as a person? Or how can I welcome a little bit more discomfort into my life to to grow and challenge myself? Like, as somebody who's on the other side of one chapter of that, like, what do you tell that person? Or what can you impart from what you've learned and the experiences that you've had?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Right. For me, of course, you're gonna have negatives, but find a solution to any negative or look for a solution to turn it into a positive. Like, negativity drags you down. And that's not to say just don't be negative, because that's like saying before, don't be depressed. It's not, you know, if you can find solutions to whatever negative things going on, it doesn't have to be negative thoughts. It doesn't have to, just anything that, there should never be a problem. You should look at the solution to the problem, just I can't do it because it's a problem or I can't. It's, you might not be able to do it, but it turns it into a positive rather than a negative.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  And it's a massive weight lifted. Like, the glass is always half-full, it's not half-empty. If you can look at life like that. You can do what you want to do, you know, just take it from experience because I never thought like that before. And it's been an absolute game changer to me. Not harbor negativity, finding a positive way to look at things.

• 1:05:24Rich Roll?

  That's a great way to go into this season, man. I'm happy for you, dude. You know, it's cool. It's really cool to, you know, you're so clearly in, in this really good place in your life, like emotionally. And it's one thing to be in that place and it's another thing to recognize it. Like you really recognize like this cool life that you have, the opportunities that you have.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  Thanks, man. I'm lucky. Like, I have an incredible wife that's still by me through everything. And I realize why I have got an incredible, beautiful family. I get to do what I love as a job. There's nothing to, yeah, things are perfect, you know?

• 1:06:07Rich Roll?

  That's a good way to end it, man. Things are perfect. Right? Thanks, man. That was great. You're, you're an inspiration. You know, I've been a fan for a long time, but now, you know, knowing you a little bit and getting to know you through the documentary, like, I really appreciate, you know, the journey that you are on and what you're trying to do, man. So I'm really excited for this season to come for you.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Thanks, Rich. Thank you.

• 1:06:30Rich Roll?

  Cheers. Thanks for doing this.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:06:32Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:06:39Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment.

• 1:07:24Rich Roll?

  Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Salis.

• 1:08:07Rich Roll?

  Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Tractor Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. [music]