Pod Insights On Purpose with Jay Shetty 5 Ways to Find Balance Between Your Ambition and Wellbeing to Reach Your Potential & Succeed in Work and Life About this episode Everyone says that to start that successful business or make that dream promotion, you have to work harder and longer than anyone else. But is that sustainable? Is there a way you can achieve success without burning out?
On this episode of On Purpose, Jay Shetty outlines 5 simple ways to succeed in your dream career while thriving in your life.
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0:00 Jay Shetty? This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to-do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet,
0:44 Jay Shetty? AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to-do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on.
1:29 Jay Shetty? AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose.
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3:00 Jay Shetty? Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees, so you keep every dollar you earn. If you're like me, you have a passion for people and a genuine interest in helping them find success and happiness. Perhaps your past year wasn't the best you've ever had, but you're not ready to give up the hope and belief that you can live your purpose and make a difference. As I find strength in my support network and seeing the impact I create in others, I know you have the potential to do the same. I've designed the Jay Shetty Certification School to equip people like you with the skills and knowledge to find success and help others do the same through life coaching. To date, in the past year, almost 1,500 students have enrolled in our industry-recognized coaching program,
3:44 Jay Shetty? and more than 150 have already graduated and are now practicing to guide clients to find fulfillment. Every day, our students and alumni tell me how the program changed their lives, made them feel they belong to something far bigger than themselves, how their dedicated supervisors in the school showed them respect and compassion when they needed it, the incredible assistance and safety net that the community of fellow students, program counselors, and support staff provide to make their journey special. They've become part of an incredible family of like-minded people who share the same passion to serve others, a belonging that will last a lifetime. So ask yourself whether you're ready to become a part of our incredible family of...
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5:01 Jay Shetty? Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you. I just want to give a big shout out. We just hit 15,000 reviews with an average of five stars on the podcast. It's incredible. Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. And if you haven't left a review, please do it. It makes such a big difference to the podcast. It helps so many more listeners discover us. And I know that all of you are sharing this podcast on your stories and with your friends, and it truly, truly, truly means the world to me. Now, today's theme
5:39 Jay Shetty? is all about how we achieve wealth and wellbeing, or how do we balance ambition and you time? How many of you have massive goals? How many of you have things that you really want to achieve, things that you believe are priorities in your life and that you would regret if you didn't achieve them? But then how many of you also experience burnout? How many of you feel like you're not getting enough sleep? How many of you feel like you're always comparing yourself to what everyone else is doing? It can be really hard to manage
6:19 Jay Shetty? the fine line between ambition and acceptance. How many of you ever get lost in that discussion of, am I? Too ambitious? Am I too accepting? Am I too complacent? Like, how many of you always get into the mind mess of it all? And you're sitting there going, "Oh, I'm not doing enough. I'm not doing enough. I'm not doing enough. Everyone's doing so much." Or the other way, where you're like, "Wow, I am just doing so much. I need to take a break. I need to actually listen to myself." Pearl Bailey once said that "A person without ambition is dead." A person without...
7:02 Jay Shetty? A person without ambition but no luck. A person with ambition but no love is dead. A person with ambition and love for their blessings here on earth is ever so alive. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've heard me talk about how to maximize your productivity and impact. You've also heard me talk about how to live a life filled with more meaning and purpose. And you've probably heard me mention the importance of sleep and activities like meditation and exercise. But here's the big question: How do we do it all? Can we do it all? That's what we're talking about today. How to balance your ambition to live a purpose-filled
7:46 Jay Shetty? and success-filled life with your desire for good health and emotion and mental wellbeing. Netflix CEO Reed Hastings once joked that "For Netflix, the primary competition isn't another company, it's sleep." In her book, Can't Even: How Millennials Became the Burnout Generation, Anne Helen Peterson says that "One of the biggest challenges in the internet age is the illusion that doing it all isn't just possible, but it's mandatory. When we fail to do so, we blame ourselves," she writes. That "The biggest cause of burnout for millennials today
8:25 Jay Shetty? is the continuous failure to reach the impossible expectations we've set for ourselves." Today, we're resetting those expectations and looking at how we can really attend to all of our competing priorities in a meaningful way. We're looking at how to achieve not only financial wealth or success in our field, but how to balance that with the time and practices that will make us sure that we're wealthy and wealthy, right? In our life, in our relationships, in everything we do. So, if you're ready to go, so am I. Let's do it. One of the biggest challenges to this idea is the belief we have that there are people
9:09 Jay Shetty? that are perfecting everything all of the time. So we'll say things or observe things and be like, "Oh my gosh, she is the perfect mom and has the perfect workout and has the perfect career all at the same time." Now, chances are, that person didn't do all of those things all at the same time. There was a time in their life that they build their health habits. There's a time in their life that they built their understanding of how to be a mother. There's a time in their life they built their entrepreneurial skills. There may be someone else you look at and go, "Oh my gosh, he's got it all together. You know, he's a great partner, he's working out, he's healthy, he's also making a ton of money."
9:51 Jay Shetty? I promise you, there is no person on the planet that achieved and built all of those habits in the same year. It's just not possible.
10:05 Jay Shetty? Here's strategy number one. The problem is that we focus on the maximums instead of the minimums, because we think that's how we'll get ahead. We focus on doing the most, when really, we should focus on doing the least. Now, stay with me, I'll explain what I mean. It sounds counterintuitive, but let's unpack it. On one hand, Elon Musk has a sleeping bag under his desk. Indra Nooyi is clocking just four hours of pillow time a night. And Marissa Mayer says that the key to success is 130-hour work weeks. Jack Dorsey, co-founder of Twitter and the founder of Square, says he works eight to 10 hours per day at one of those companies and then the same amount at the other.
10:48 Jay Shetty? That's a 16 to 20-hour workday. Or rather, that's what he used to do. These days, Dorsey is focusing on the minimums. Instead of maximizing his time at the two companies, he's getting a minimum of eight to nine hours of sleep per night and meditating for one hour at a time, sometimes twice a day. That's very much in line with my sleep and meditation minimums. He's also walking several miles to work and takes off regularly to socialize with close friends, and yet both companies are doing better than ever. Notice this, though. Dorsey built Twitter and Square. And during that time, during that building phase, it took him to the point of working those sixteen to twenty hour days.
11:32 Jay Shetty? And now that he's built something, he's now finding more stability, more sustainability, more security, right? He's, he's getting the opportunity. And so sometimes when we have that thought in our head like, oh, it's easy for you to do that now because you're successful. There is actually some truth in that. So sometimes when you're on the way up, when you're figuring things out, you may be working really hard. You may be off balance and don't have the pressure in your head of like, oh, my gosh, I need to have everything planned. I need to have everything organized. I, I talk about it often that when I was building the work that I'm doing today, there were two years that I worked eighteen hour days. I always meditated for my two hours a day,
12:16 Jay Shetty? which has been my daily practice for the last sixteen years, fifteen to sixteen years. But I was working eighteen hour days. It took a hit on my health. It was tiring. I was exhausted, but I knew that if I could do that, it would allow me to start investing in my health. So what I want you to understand from this is that now that you hear stories of people sleeping this much time and meditating this much time, it wasn't that they necessarily did that on the way up, but at one point they had to realize, and this is the key. You want to realize before you break and before you burn out. If you're building something that you're proud of, that you love,
12:58 Jay Shetty? that you're passionate about, chances are you're going to work really hard. But the key thing is that you don't allow yourself to break or burn out. You switch, you evolve, you take this step. Dorsey is practicing something Arianna Huffington described when I talked to her on my podcast, focusing on the minimums. In two thousand and ten, when she was burnt out, literally she was working eighteen hour days at Huffington Post. And one day while working from home, she was simultaneously on the phone and reading an email when the next thing she knew, she woke up in a pool of blood. She was so tired, she'd passed out onto her desk and broke her cheekbone in the process.
13:41 Jay Shetty? Arianna Huffington says it was a literal wake up call. Several years later, she founded Thrive Global, which is focused on improving health and quality of life. And now, while she's still crushing it, she's not getting crushed by it. So it's natural in the beginning to get crushed by the process. But you wanna be careful to get those breaks, to get those moments, to get those weekends away, where you do get to switch off, where you do get to calm down, where you do get to unplug. It may not be the longest unplug, it may not be the biggest time away from your company, but you have to realize, even in the process, there have to be those breaks. So the way I think about it is this. During the process,
14:26 Jay Shetty? you need to find at least two days a month that you unplug, fully unplug. No phone, no anything. Two out of thirty days a month in the building process. If you have built something to a certain level of establishment or it's substantial to some degree, then I would encourage you to be taking all your evenings and weekends for yourself. It's so important that it starts moving in that direction. When we focus on the minimums, we look at our calendar differently. Instead of filling in all of our work obligations first, we start with our self obligations. How much sleep do we need to function at our best? How much family time?
15:11 Jay Shetty? How much exercise? What about the breaks in the workday? So you literally shift from work obligations to self obligations. Those are your non-negotiables. Those are your things that you know make you as good as you are and as good as you can be. If you could see my phone right now, I'm looking at my calendar and absolutely all of this is on there. I have my meal times planned out. I have my time with my wife planned out. And you may say, well, where's the spontaneity? The spontaneity is in what you do with that time. The spontaneity is the energy that you bring to that time. Don't get it twisted, right? Like, I love being spontaneous and I love being completely childlike in that sense,
15:54 Jay Shetty? but that doesn't come from not having the time planned out. It matters what you do with that time. I always say this. If it's not on the calendar, it just doesn't get done. It just doesn't, I promise you. Here's the exercise. Take a blank calendar week. If you don't have one handy, most computers will let you show or print a generic blank week. And not just fill in all of those things. How much do you need of those things each day or each week to feel good and grounded? To feel you have a solid foundation from which you can perform your best? So, for example, I know that I need to play tennis every morning for an hour. I know I need to do that. I love starting my day with play and I love starting my day with sweat.
16:40 Jay Shetty? At the same time, I know I need to start my day with meditation. So now I've started starting my workdays at nine thirty AM, which means by that time I've already been able to do that. Now you may be a parent, you may be dropping your kids off to school. So the times that you have available may be less, but the point is you still make that time for yourself. Here's a tip when coming up with your minimums in each area. Think about what makes a solid foundation for you to operate from in other areas of your life. But when you think about a foundation, think roots, not bricks. Close your eyes and feel into your body. And consider, okay, I expect you to close your eyes for real right now. Close your eyes.
17:26 Jay Shetty? Feel into your body.
17:30 Jay Shetty? And consider. What doesn't make you feel solid?
17:37 Jay Shetty? What helps you feel nourished?
17:42 Jay Shetty? What truly makes you feel supported?
17:46 Jay Shetty? You're not a machine. You're more like a tree. You're organic. You're not on a regulated regimented military production schedule. You live seasonally. Sometimes you're growing and bearing fruit. Sometimes you're striving towards the sun. And sometimes you're shedding leaves and resting. That's what self-care is about. It's not about ticking off more checkboxes. It's about deep care and self-consideration. And so every day also doesn't have to look exactly the same, unless that works for you. The exception is probably your sleep baseline and keeping that steady.
18:29 Jay Shetty? But otherwise, we can also think of our minimums seasonally as well as daily. I know that recently I've been wearing the Oura ring, and I love checking it because sometimes you don't even realise that you've had five bad nights. You've slept after your bedtime for five nights, and then you're wondering why you're tired. It's a great way of keeping it countable. It's a great way of measuring. You know, we always hear this in business, like you can't improve what you don't measure. The same is true in your life.
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19:42 Jay Shetty? That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Home should be a place that feels like a sanctuary, a space that truly reflects who you are. But it can be challenging to balance style, budget, and endless options. I was looking to create a dedicated calm space for my morning meditation and reading, but I was struggling to find pieces that felt grounding but could also stand up to daily use. I went on Wayfair and found a beautiful, solid wood accent chair and a bookshelf. Now that corner is my favourite. favorite place to anchor my day. The quality is incredible, it's built to last, and it completely shifted the energy of the room.
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21:08 Jay Shetty? That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online. So let's move on to strategy two. When I listed all of those hours that some famous CEOs are working, maybe you were nodding, thinking, that's what it takes to get ahead. More, more, more, more hours, more meetings, more deliverables. This idea that more work is better work really came from the Industrial Revolution when machines came online to take over a lot of jobs people were doing.
21:50 Jay Shetty? Productivity became about maximum hours because for machines, maximum hours meant maximum output. But as Rahaf Harfush points out in her book Hustle and Float, those standards that applied to machines are in many cases causing us to turn in poorer quality work over time. And they're making us burn out. So if earlier you were listening to me like, Joe, okay, I get it. You're telling me to work hard as well. But how do I know when to slow down? How do I know when I'm going to break? When you start to see yourself putting out low quality work. See, you do want to work hard, but as soon as you start seeing your output decline in quality, in substance, in depth.
22:32 Jay Shetty? That's when you know it's time to slow down, wind down, and take those two days a month. Those twenty-four hours in thirty days. Because if you're not doing that, and unfortunately, what usually happens is we think, oh, I'm getting away with it, right? Like, the quality's not as good, but we're getting away with it. People seem to still like the product, whatever we're doing. But we don't realise that we're being affected by it. Check this out. Researchers looked at forty people who had symptoms of burnout and who'd worked about sixty to seventy hours a week for several years. They compared these people with seventy people from a similar economic background who were relatively unstressed. They hooked each participant up to electrodes
23:17 Jay Shetty? and asked them to focus on a picture. Then the researchers played a sudden loud noise in the background. Both groups were equally startled and agitated by the noise, but those in the burnout group had a much harder time recovering. Their nervous systems took longer to return to resting levels. Here's something that may be even more surprising. Psychologists at Rice University wanted to look at how our mood impacts creativity. Workers kept journals recording their moods while their bosses reported how well they thought the participants were doing with regard to their creativity. Now, you might think that we're more productive and creative in positive states, but in reality, those with the greatest creative performance
24:01 Jay Shetty? experienced a full variety of positive and negative moods. Today, lots of us are feeling pressured not only to perform to the top of our game, but to always be happy and fully engaged while we're doing it, to think we have the best job ever at all times. In reality, we need to be able to be ourselves to be creative. We need to be authentic and be able to acknowledge when we're frustrated or struggling. I was talking to a coaching client of mine recently, and I was saying that it's not about sharing perfection, it's about sharing your truth. And so if you're confused, share that, right? Put that into your work. That's the phenomena of art and expression.
24:46 Jay Shetty? When you bring your confusion and curiosity into your work, that's what people are connecting with. And that's what people are resonating with. When I think about music that works today, when I think about art that appeals to our mind and hearts, it does so because someone shared their truth and you can relate to their truth. You can't relate to their perfection. You can't relate to their supposed, "I have arrived", but you can relate to their pain. And when you think about the fact that when your nervous system also has a harder time regulating itself when you're working long hours,
25:29 Jay Shetty? it points out the benefits of a shorter workday. Studies show that those who work forty to fifty-five hours per week perform better than those who work sixty-five hours or more. Henry Ford saw that way back in the nineteen twenties. The qualities, the quality of workers' performance declined beyond forty hours per week. And Harfush says for today's knowledgeable workers or knowledge workers who engage in complex analytical and creative thought, the optimum workday could be even shorter, more like six to seven hours per day of high intensity work. Now, that's the key. Right? Usually when people hear these studies, they're like, "Oh yeah, I should have a shorter workday." No, that's not the point. You should have a shorter workday of more intense work. So, most of us are working twelve, fourteen, sixteen hour days,
26:14 Jay Shetty? but it's not high intensity. And so, we feel more tired, we feel less energized, less productive. But if you're doing six to seven hours of high intensity work, you're then getting more time to rest, more time to relax, more time to meditate, but your time at work was spent phenomenally. According to Fast Company, lifestyle brand Tower has instituted a five-hour workday. A company in New Zealand experienced greater productivity when it switched to four-day work weeks. Jason Frye, CEO of Basecamp, advocates a flexible eight-hour day, meaning those hours can be worked at any time. Massively successful outdoor brand Patagonia is similar, with a flexible policy that allows employees to take off work to hit the beach when the waves are good
26:59 Jay Shetty? or take their kids hiking. Now, what I think's really important about that is, or you need to realize is, could you do the work you do in your current day in less time? And therefore actually have more downtime even while you're at work. I remember when I worked in the corporate world, that was definitely true. I've really found that I was able to do most of what I was required to do, even above and beyond, within about six to seven hours, which meant I had at least another two to three hours in the workplace that I could use for personal growth and personal research. So instead of more, more, more, we want to think better, better, better. So if you're not getting better and you're losing the aptitude to get better, that's the sign that you need to start slowing down, right?
27:44 Jay Shetty? So that's what I was doing when I was working those busy 18-hour days sometimes. When I started to see my quality was dipping or my focus was decreasing, that's when I knew I needed to take a break. Some of the ways I did that was I have a little minute timer, you know, the ones you can turn over and the hourglass and you can watch the sand move. I have that as a distraction timer. It allows me to time my distraction, lets me have a welcome break. I love the idea of working in blocks. I have creative mornings and logical afternoons. I have number mornings or number days and logical days or creative days and creative afternoons. That way I can really, really go deep into focus. And setting up for the next morning the night before has changed my life. I never wake up not knowing what I'm gonna do.
28:29 Jay Shetty? I always know what I'm going to be doing from the night before. Okay, so strategy three. On top of working long hours, when we're away from work, we're often not truly off. Neurologist Nathaniel Watson calls our 24-hour culture the caffeine industrial complex. We're either thinking about work or we're engaged in some kind of mindless activity, like scrolling social media or binging a show. Not that there's anything wrong with these things in moderation, but they mostly end up stealing our rest time. We think we're resting, but we're not. We're agitated and outside of ourselves. It's not restorative.
29:06 Jay Shetty? When you're off, be off. And be engaged instead in something purposeful and restorative. It has to be meaningful rest. This is what athletes understand that will help us substantially. Rest days aren't days where they're doing nothing. Maybe they're not training. Or they're doing active rest, like going for a fun hike or a walk. But the rest is work too. Because what athletes know is that gains are made on rest days. That's why bodybuilders would never hit their chest and back hard two days in a row. It actually depletes their muscles. They know they aren't gaining strength and mass during the workout so much as afterwards in the rest and repair phase.
29:48 Jay Shetty? This is the mindset shift we need to make when thinking about balance. Off is still on. That's why ideally we schedule our self-care and rest first and then fill in the rest of our calendar. Being off and resting is part of our game plan for achieving our goals. And you have to see it that way. See, half the issue is seeing it that way. When you realize that actually if I take rest today, I'm gonna be better. Then it feels a part of the ambition. You have to make your self-acceptance a part of your ambition. You don't have to see it as opposing. We say it as acceptance versus ambition. It's acceptance with ambition, right? And, and when you make that mindset shift, that paradigm shift, everything starts to
30:33 Jay Shetty? move. So here's strategy four. We also need to look at the hidden cause of lack of me time. And this one will probably surprise you. It's not wanting to be with ourselves. In Think Like a Monk, I described a study where people would rather give themselves an electric shock than be alone without distraction for just a few minutes. Cal Newport writes that solitude is important because it provides us with a subjective state in which your mind is free from input from other minds. It allows us to see what we really think and become aware of, who we really are and how we truly feel. But that can be terrifying. Research shows that one of the best ways to help kids' brains develop is to give them opportunities to be bored.
31:17 Jay Shetty? This gap in distraction or needing to perform gives us opportunities to think novel thoughts, to catch up with ourselves, to reflect on the world around us and our role in it. And again, as it turns out, so much of our stress and discontent is from that pendulum swing of needing to be exceptionally productive and perform at peak levels, and now the pressure to get eight hours of sleep per night. We want both of those things, but it's actually being able to live more in the gaps of those two spaces that can help us realise success in both. Instead of swinging from one extreme to the other, thinking about modulating your day, turning the volume up a little here, down a bit there. It's similar to how our nervous system regulates ourselves.
32:02 Jay Shetty? Let your mind wander sometimes. Engage in conversations with coworkers or with store clerks when you're out. Again, this helps us be more human, and that humanness allows you to bring more presence to your work. Now, I want to share one last strategy with you, strategy number five. Harvard Business School's Frances Frye was asked how companies can perform consistently well, day after day. Her answer was surprising. To be excellent at some things, you have to accept that you're bad at other things. She gave the example of Steve Jobs speaking about the MacBook Air and explaining that in order to be the best at being the lightest laptop, they had to accept being bad at having accessories, like an internal DVD drive, which would add weight.
32:46 Jay Shetty? Patagonia is similar. To accept being excellent at providing fair-trade, sustainable products, they accept being bad at having the biggest colour or product selection. For example, when they found out that they couldn't obtain an orange dye that wouldn't be environmentally destructive, they simply decided the product wouldn't be available in orange. Decide what you're willing to be bad at to be great at something else. But have fun with it. This is not about self judgment. Inject some humor. One of my friends decided to be bad at keeping up with the latest TV shows. So she could be good at having meaningful family dinners and being well rested. Another one of my friends is bad at trying to maintain more than two truly close friendships
33:27 Jay Shetty? at a time because she feels she starts failing at something after that. Either being fully present with family, work or her friends. So you may find that a lot of people in your life don't have time for you. Or they only have time for what they're going through. That's okay. And you need to actually do this exercise. List it out. I'm willing to be bad at X so that I can be great at Y. Because here's the conclusion. While we can't actually have everything we ever want, with some planning and attention, we can have the things that are most meaningful to us. Remember, it's all about what order it happens in. This year may be the year of a particular habit or a particular strength.
34:10 Jay Shetty? Don't make it the year of everything because then you'll make it the year of nothing. Thank you so much for listening to On Purpose. I hope that you will share this episode. Share on Instagram what you learned from this episode as well. I can't wait to see your insights and I look forward to you joining us for more episodes. Thank you so much.
34:47 Jay Shetty? This podcast was produced by Dust Light Productions. Our executive producer from Dust Light is Misha Youssef. Our senior producer is Juliana Bradley. Our associate producer is Jacqueline Castillo. Valentino Rivera is our engineer. Our music is from Blue Dot Sessions. And special thanks to Rachel Garcia, the Dust Light Development and Operations Coordinator.
35:17 Speaker 01 Mr. President, my company informed me of the explosion on our rig. On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.
35:33 Jay Shetty? What would happen if I stopped going? You stall, you freeze to death, that's what.
35:37 Speaker 01 With great power comes great deniability.
35:41 Jay Shetty? I'm not the first then.
35:42 Speaker 01 Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.
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