William Wallace, Scottish Rebel

Unmasking the Myth: The Real Story of William Wallace Matt Lewis and Dr. Fiona Watson get to know the true life of William Wallace, challenging the myths popularised by the film Braveheart. From Wallace's background and family origins to his role in Scotland’s fight for independence and ultimate demise, Matt and Fiona unravel the stunning real historical narrative. From Wallace's significant victories and strategic moves to his enduring legacy as a symbol of Scottish patriotism, free from the embellishments of Hollywood. Matt also ask the most important questions; did William Wallace wear a kilt, and did he bare his bottom to the English?! More: The Origins of Scotland https://open.spotify.com/episode/6ypGupE3NqScJT7TSmM57E Castles, Kings and Courtly Life, Stirling https://open.spotify.com/episode/6v2Irz1l8O4S5aJ3L86oPk Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis. It was edited by Amy Haddow, the senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds. Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit to watch the new Rebel series starring William Wallace. Plus hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK: https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/6FFT7MK Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Matt Lewis?

  From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr Eleanor Yarnagger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:42Speaker 01

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• 1:15Speaker 02

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie, and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  It's one of the first times, really, that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers. If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  In Our Time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Tea or coffee? Love a cup of tea.

• 1:50Matt Lewis?

  Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research, from the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the crusades. We cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots and murders, to find the stories, big and small, that tell us how we got here. Find out who we really were with Gone Medieval.

• 2:38Matt Lewis?

  Welcome to this episode of Gone Medieval. I'm Matt Lewis. If you've listened to our Medieval Movie Nights episode, you'll know that Braveheart is a solid favourite here at Gone Medieval. You'll also know that it requires a gentle setting aside, or perhaps a violent launching into the stratosphere of history. In a new series of documentaries on history hit, Professor Michael Livingstone is taking a closer look at some famous medieval rebels. You can watch his film about William Wallace right now if you're a subscriber. And we thought that gave us the perfect opportunity to look at the real William Wallace, the man behind the kilted, blue-faced Braveheart. To try and peel away the misty myths, I'm

• 3:20Matt Lewis?

  joined by Fiona Watson, whose books include Under the Hammer: Edward I and Scotland 1296 to 1305, and Traitor: Outlaw King, which tells the story of Robert the Bruce.

• 3:40Matt Lewis?

  Welcome to Gone Medieval Fiona.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  Hello, lovely to meet you, Matt.

• 3:44Matt Lewis?

  It's great to have you on to talk about William Wallace. I mean, I guess the first question has to be, how often do you think about Braveheart? Because I think about it all the time.

• 3:51Speaker 04

  Do you indeed. I think I try not to think about Braveheart, but to be honest, I mean, I am hugely grateful to Braveheart because I started as a young lecturer at Stirling University when Mel Gibson came to Stirling for the European premiere of Braveheart back in 1995, which is now... Way too long ago. And but and it it did huge things in Scotland. I just started as a medievalist and Stirling didn't have a medievalist. So I taught Wallace and Bruce. And so my student numbers were very healthy. And the Wallace monument, they had to build a new, bigger car park. So it did great things for for Scotland in terms of putting it even more on the map.

• 4:28Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, yeah. Eleanor and I have had several discussions about how much we we love Braveheart, but decried the desecration of the history all around it, but still an amazing film.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  It it is, yeah.

• 4:37Matt Lewis?

  But we'll set the film to one side a little bit because we're going to try and get to know the real William Wallace a little bit better, hopefully a lot better. Can you tell us to start off with, how much do we know about William Wallace's family, his background, when and where he's born, that kind of thing?

• 4:54Speaker 04

  That's a very good question. And as you know, it's it's hard to get a lot of details about even some of the the kings, maybe less for for English kings, but for Scottish kings. It's quite hard. We don't know exactly where Robert Bruce was born. And someone like William Wallace, who was never supposed to be famous, we were never supposed to have heard of him. Is even harder. And then we've got the huge layer of obfuscation that is the great poem about William Wallace called The Wallace that Braveheart is based on, but written 150 years after he was around. And right at the beginning, he, Blind Harry, who supposedly wrote The Wallace. He says that William was the son of Sir Malcolm Wallace of Crekey, and we know that isn't true.

• 5:39Speaker 04

  But for years, it wasn't until the 1980s that we found out who Wallace's father actually was. And that's because, I know it's jumping ahead, but William's seal was appended to a document that he sent out to Lubeck to say that Scotland was open for trade again after his famous victory at Stirling Bridge. So his seal is on there, cobbled together. And on the reverse, which no one had looked at, the actual seal came from Lubeck to Glasgow in the early 1900s. And a cast was made of it by a dentist. And he had sat in the Mitchell Library in Glasgow for about nearly a century. And someone who was very keen on William Wallace actually turned it over. And there on the other side was Wallace's personal seal.

• 6:23Speaker 04

  And it said, William, son of Alan Wallace. So we we know that. Doesn't get as much further. I mean, who is Alan Wallace? There is an Alan Wallace around at this time on the so called Radman Row that Edward the first, when Edward first conquered Scotland. He got lots of landowners to swear a fealty to him. And there is an Alan Wallace who is a royal tenant in Ayrshire. And that could well be our man or our man's father.

• 6:50Matt Lewis?

  So frustratingly, you sort of left piecing together tiny little fragments that we have. Until he, I mean, eventually he he just explodes onto the scene almost from nowhere, doesn't he?

• 7:00Speaker 04

  Yes, well, he does, you know, he absolutely does. And it's this shocking murder, murder on the fifth of May, twelve ninety seven in Lannart, which is in southwest Scotland. Yeah, you know, and of course, as Breevert would have it, that's all about the murder of his wife. And we do have a lot of that detail quite early in Scottish chronicles, but again, not necessarily contemporary about why he did it. So he does definitely murder the sheriff of of Lannart, William Heselrick, who was a Northumbrian. And we we have quite a lot of detail in a Norwegian Chronicle of all things, which gives us the date. And we know that the sheriff wasn't in the castle. He was in a house in in Lannock and William went and killed him and then set fire to the house.

• 7:43Speaker 04

  And there was another knight, another Northumbrian knight called Sir Thomas Gray, who again, his son writes a chronicle, so it's kind of first hand. And he was left for dead and someone who was with Wallace. A man called Sir Richard Lundie actually went back and saved the first Sir Thomas Gray. Otherwise, he would he would have been dead and we wouldn't have known the story. I think because he was a bit appalled by the murder of a man who represented the English king. And was therefore likely to excite a lot of retribution for that action. So Richard Gandhi was very, very worried and perhaps hadn't known that's what he was signing up to when he went to Lanark.

• 8:20Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, it's a big step to suddenly murder the man who is effectively the English King's representative in your area. It's a significant statement and kind of a leap that is very difficult to come back from. Do we have any sense of what Wallace is trying to achieve here? Do we get any idea at this point of a manifesto that he's operating under?

• 8:43Speaker 04

  Well, I think we can only judge really from his actions because he himself obviously didn't tell us anything. And I think my sense, and it's no more than that, and you know, it's nice to have the Hello Magazine version, you know, with the wife or girlfriend or whatever, is that he seriously objected to A, the English takeover of Scotland the year before, but also I think more importantly, and I think this is where in a way after the first lost the war almost on day one, is the way that English officials were managing the administration of Scotland. And even English officials say that other people were asking a lot of money for people to swear homage and fealty or to get a charter or, you know, anything that they needed. I mean, they would normally pay, but maybe not that

• 9:28Speaker 04

  much. And so there was a lot of extortion perhaps going on because there wasn't really anybody keeping an eye on the government of Scotland. And Scotland was kind of presumably looked down upon for having capitulated so quickly. And Edward himself, King, was now concentrating on his war with France, with Philip the Fourth of France. So, yeah, it was, if the English regime had sort of said, okay, we've taken over, we are a little bit more heavy handed, more taxation, et cetera, et cetera, which Scots obviously love. The, I think on the other hand, we will offer you very good justice, that everybody can get access to justice and, you know, we'll do things efficiently and we won't let people oppress you, et cetera, et cetera. There might have been a chance the regime would have stuck. And it's hitting people like William Wallace. William Wallace is not a

• 10:13Speaker 04

  peasant, contrary to Braveheart. He is, well, if his father really is a royal tenet, he's a younger son. So he himself doesn't have lands, but he comes from the sort of human stock, I think you would say in England. So these people are being hit by the English regime in a way that they've never been hit by the Scottish kings. Cause Scottish government is comparatively light compared to England. So these kind of people like Wallace are being hit very hard. And then Wallace is clearly somebody who is prepared to to stand up and do something about it.

• 10:44Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. So Edward has kind of come in hard, but made no efforts to to win kind of hearts and minds, we might say. You know, he's he's seeing no need to be gentle about the way that he's ruling. And he's sort of stoking this opposition by allowing his officials to be more brutal than they they might have been otherwise.

• 11:00Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 11:01Matt Lewis?

  Is is there a sense as well at this point that Wallace is, I mean, it's something that comes out in the Braveheart film. And it's something that, you know, it seems to me might might actually have a ring of truth about it. That Wallace is slightly frustrated with the Scottish nobility and they're they're sort of in action in the face of the English. You know, lots of them have land on the English side of the border too. So they're perhaps more reluctant to stand up to the English than those of of Wallace's rank perhaps.

• 11:25Speaker 04

  This is a fantastic myth of Scottish history. It very much times, I think, for more modern times, you know, that the nobility were useless. They were half Norman, you know, all these all these Normans that came into Scotland, many of them did. But, you know, that was like 250 years earlier. Sorry, I think you can say they're Scottish, even if they do have English landed interests. Almost all the Scottish nobility backed the the going to war in 1295. When they had the Scots had concluded an alliance with France, which was really their their card to take on the English king. Who was making more and more outrageous demands as they saw it on on their king, John Ballyo, who'd been put in, well, chosen by Edward. You may or may not want to talk about how useless he was.

• 12:07Speaker 04

  I don't think anybody would have stood a chance against Edward the first, who's who's got a great legal brain and had sewn up the Scottish kingship under his jurisdiction. And the Scots either had to just basically take it or fight. And because England was about to fight France, Scotland became attracted to France as an ally. And the Scots concluded an alliance. And almost all, apart from those very, very closely associated with the Bruces, who'd lost out to John Ballyo for the kingship, sided against Edward the first. The Bruces were in Edward's army. So the whole notion that the Scottish nobility didn't fight Edward is nonsense. Many of them had been.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  imprisoned in England if they had fought a battle, the battle of Dunbar against Edward. Or were effectively on gardening leave on their English estates while Edward was in France. He didn't want them in Scotland because it might cause trouble. So there was, there was very few of the, the, the leading nobility left in Scotland in this period. The Brucees capitalised on that, the, the young Robert Bruce, the future king, he also gets involved after Wallace has killed the, the Sheriff of Lanark in his own rebellion. Although he doesn't call it that, he says he's, he's just complaining on behalf of the, the people like Wallace, the middling sort. Because they're worried they're going to be taken to France to fight with Edward the first, and that's a great imposition. So he's, he's not saying that Edward is wrong to rule Scotland. He's just saying the way you're going about it isn't particularly good.

• 13:31Speaker 04

  So there was general revulsion against what the English regime meant in Scotland. But what Wallace himself, because it's hard to pin him down because traditionally he's supposed to have, his family supposedly lived on lands of James the Stuart in the west of Scotland. But I think if he's, if his father's a royal tenant, chances are he's actually more closely aligned to the Brucees. His brother, he has a brother called Malcolm Wallace, is in the retinue of the Earl of Carrick, the future King, Robert Bruce. But Wallace himself doesn't, he seems to have not particularly cared, as far as we can tell, for noble politics. Because there is this Bruce-Bailey split, not Bailey himself, he's out of the kingdom, but the common family

• 14:11Speaker 04

  who are the most powerful, that's C O M Y N, it's all, it's most unfortunate that they've got a name that sounds like common. They are the most powerful family in Scotland. They, they've been sent out of the country, but they've been sent back because they're so powerful that Edward realizes he probably has to rely on them to go after when the rebellion breaks out. So there is this, this bit of argy-bargy in Scottish politics as well as the war with England. And Wallace just doesn't seem bothered. He's also very close to a man called Robert Wishart, Bishop of Glasgow, who's been at the forefront of asserting Scottish independence ever since the relationship with England started to break down. So he also seems to have been a bit of a mentor, as far as we can see, for Wallace. But what their relationship was, you know, how, how they knew each other, we really don't know.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  So Wallace does definitely, when you look at noble politics, does seem to be above that. And, and he's quite single minded about getting on with the job and not worrying about all this politics.

• 15:08Matt Lewis?

  Someone else who crops up in Wallace's story.

• 15:12Matt Lewis?

  Quite soon after this, and who is so often cut out of it and completely forgotten, is a man named Andrew Murray. I wonder what you could tell us about him and how he and Wallace joined together.

• 15:22Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for bringing that up. He does often get missed out because he went and died just after the Battle of Stirling Bridge. So Andrew Murray is a nobleman's son. His father is imprisoned in both he and his father, also Andrew Murray, fought at the Battle of Dunbar in 1296. And his father was imprisoned in the Tower of London. But the younger Andrew was put in prison much nearer to Scotland. Well, he managed to escape anyway. And he went back to Scotland and raised his father's men in the Black Isle north of Inverness, in conjunction with the Burgess's of Inverness, who were also being stung by Edward's taxes. And what you're basically seeing, okay, Wallace is the first at the beginning of May, but you get these outbreaks of rebellion or uprisings, freedom

• 16:07Speaker 04

  uprisings, depends on your point of view, all over the country, not necessarily coordinated. But that's the good thing about Scotland being an uncentralised kingdom, unlike England, which is comparatively very centralised, as is France, is that you don't need the top layer of leadership to be there for local communities to be perfectly capable of doing whatever they want to do. And this is exactly what happens. But so Andrew Murray is a much more traditional leader of his father's tenants. And we surmise, because it's no more than this, because how did they know? How did Wallace and Murray know they're in very different parts of the country? And Wallace kind of goes round a bit. By the time that Andrew Murray is up in arms, Wallace is in the south east of Scotland, training men, gathering

• 16:52Speaker 04

  men to him. But probably the Scottish nobility, there was certainly accused of this, are although they did not want to be seen to aid this uprising, because Edward might divert his army from France back to Scotland, they were covertly sending men in, you know, and communication. And the church is very, very important in that because monks and People like that can wander around, nobody's going to stop them. So they can take messages. There's a huge network. And so it's probably that way. And somehow Andrew Murray comes south, right over the mountains and and joins up with Wallace, probably at Dundee, somewhere like that. And they know, they must know that an English army now, finally, because they hadn't been taken seriously,

• 17:36Speaker 04

  is coming from Beddick. And there's really only one way you can take an army, and that is over the bridge at Stirling, because there's only a little ferry. You're not going to use that. So they don't need to speak to each other to know that that's going to be the point at which they can both hook up, the both sides.

• 17:52Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And and does those two coming together in particular, does that mark a step change in the revolt, the rebellion in Scotland, in that it's becoming more coordinated, that there is now focus that that these disparate rebellions are beginning to join together into something more coordinated and more serious?

• 18:10Speaker 04

  Yes, that's that's a very good question. I think I think you you may be right there that that it's it's and we can't see the mechanism of that, because obviously neither of those young men have a mandate, if you like, to raise the Scottish Army. Only the King can do that, or his his proxies. And and it's interesting that after the Battle of Stirling Bridge, they name themselves as Commanders of the Army of Scotland. They don't have any official position yet. So, yeah, I think that it it does very much hint at that underlying organisation, a local organisation that can be mobilised, if you like, to create a national movement out of almost nothing. And that certainly is what happened. And that I think we definitely can see

• 18:52Speaker 04

  that army as the National Army of Scotland, even though it does not contain the traditional cavalry component that you would expect. Although the Scottish Army is mostly an infantry army.

• 19:03Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. And you mentioned that Edward the First had been quite happily pursuing his campaign in France up until this point, almost as if he's not taking this very seriously. Does the fact that he now sends an army north, does that mark a change in his opinion of the rebellion? Is it beginning to look more threatening?

• 19:21Speaker 04

  The guy who is in charge in Scotland in theory is a man called the Earl of Surrey. He won the battle at Dunbar, which is why he's got this job, and he probably wished he hadn't. He doesn't like coming to Scotland, the weather's shocking, and and so he dilly dallies, if you like, in England. The person who's really running Scotland is a man called Hugh Cressingham, who is the treasurer of Scotland, which is offensive in itself because the Scottish financial officer is the Chamberlain. So, I mean, Edward had no sensitivity whatsoever to a Scottish sense that their, that Scottish customs and ways of doing things are perfectly fine. You don't need to change them. So why are you doing it? That just really gets up people's nose. That sort of thing really sticks in the craw.

• 20:03Speaker 04

  So Hugh Cressingham is sitting in Berwick. He is the only one who realizes that the rebellion, that Robert Bruce, the Arlocanic, James Stewart, his neighbour in Irsure, and Robert Wishart, the Bishop of Glasgow, that's the rebellion that the English regime in Berwick takes seriously. And that is diffused in June, which is obviously September is the Battle of Stirling Bridge. So that is, they all disband and there is no battle between those two lots. Once that aristocratic uprising or complaint has been dealt with, everybody else seems to think that's it. But Cressingham in Berwick realizes it's not, that all over Scotland it's very hard for the sheriffs

• 20:43Speaker 04

  that Edward put in to operate at all. And many of them have already left and gone back to England. It's just too dangerous for them. So he realizes that. He can't collect money anymore. So Edward's desperate for money for his French campaign. And so he is the one who says, look, we have to take this seriously. It's getting bigger. It's not going away anytime soon. And eventually Surrey brings some men north. Cressingham's already mobilized people in Northumberland. And so that's the corps of the army that goes north to meet Wallace and Murray at Stirling.

• 21:15Matt Lewis?

  And I guess we ought to get to Stirling Bridge, really, because it's, again, if we go back to the film, it's an interesting battle where there's obviously no bridge to start off with. But it's, it's an important moment for this uprising in Scotland, isn't it? And a slight stroke of military genius, I think. Could you, could you give us kind of an overview of, of what happens at Stirling? How do the armies meet there? You've mentioned that this is the one place that everybody knows you're going to have to cross. So the Scots presumably are sort of lying in wait for the English, knowing that they're coming.

• 21:44Speaker 04

  Yes, absolutely. Yes, they seem to have. And they, they probably would have marched down, there's an old Roman road that comes down around the back of the Oco Hills, that I can actually see right now, down to Stirling. And there's a causeway on the north shore, leading to the river Forth.

• 22:00Speaker 04

  So the Scots are on that side, the English are on the southern bank. Now, there's very stories about Stirling Bridge, that Surrey was in the castle and he overslept, as you do, and Cressingham's the one at the front going, goodness sake, time is money. And he sends some of the English knights over the bridge. Surrey's still not, brings them back, sends them over again. Nope, he's still not up. And this is when Richard Lundie, so Richard Lundie, whom I mentioned at the beginning, was with William Wallace at Lanark. And he had capitulated very quickly, when he'd kind of gone with Robert Bruce and that lot, and capitulated to the English army sent out against them, because I think he was so worried about what he'd done or what had happened at Lanark. And what he says to Cressingham is, look,

• 22:45Speaker 04

  there's Fords upstream. If you give me 500 horse, I'll go round behind the Scots and then we've got a pincer movement. Very sensible. But I think what discombobulated the English, which they hadn't understood, is that the Scots are not likely to allow the English knights to come across the bridge, form up, and then beat them. They are going to, I've heard Michael Presswich, the biographer of Edward the First, say, it was an ambush in plain sight, in the sense that the Scots did not do what the English expected them to do, or thought was the chivalrous thing to do, because in that case, they would have lost. But Wallace and Murray, they must have been watching whatever nonsense was going on on the English side. But they had to judge it. They had to bring their men down the causeway, so that

• 23:30Speaker 04

  they in effect have a beachhead, if you like, at the northern end of the bridge. And they have to allow so many English over to make it worthwhile attacking them, but not so many that they're likely to overwhelm the Scottish pikemen. So it was strategically very well thought out. But it's the fact that the English do not think that's what the Scots should have done. I think that they can't really believe that. Just not cricket. That's stupid. Yeah, exactly. From their point of view. So, yeah, and that's exactly what they do. And then, of course, there's a bottleneck on the bridge. Once the attack starts from the Scots. There's nowhere for the English knights who've reached the other side to go.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  So everyone's stuck. Some of the knights jump in in the river and they're in heavy armour. So, you know, they don't survive. And we know that one of the most fantastically named knights of this period, Sir Marmaduke Tweng, who's a Yorkshireman, he manages to cut his way back across. So he just, you know, he wasn't taking no for an answer. So he he got away and actually went into the castle to try to save the castle, although he didn't manage it. So so it was utter chaos. I mean, it would have been carnage and and and all the people still on the southern bank would have just been totally appalled. Because remember, in this period, knights don't tend to die in battle, not very often. They they're going to learn that, particularly in the Hundred Years' War.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  But, you know, this is this is catastrophic. And and yes, there'll be a lot of whooping Scotsmen on the on the other side of the bank.

• 25:00Matt Lewis?

  And I guess losing this battle feels like it must have been a real shock to the system for the English, both in that moment where they're they're caught kind of off guard. But also in, you know, to this point, not particularly taking this uprising in Scotland very seriously. And all of a sudden, an English army has lost

• 25:18Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 25:19Matt Lewis?

  to the Scots. It's a fairly significant moment.

• 25:22Speaker 04

  First of all, it's unbelievable. That's not in the playbook. That doesn't happen. So, yeah, they're absolutely shocked. I mean, bearing in mind how easily they'd conquered Scotland in in twelve ninety six, they just couldn't get their heads around it. I have heard it argued, and I've heard people argue against this too. But that actually, from Edward's point of view, in terms of, you know, Scotland is not a popular posting. We've seen this with Surrey and a lot of the the English people like Sir Robert Clifford, Henry Percy. These guys want to fight in France. They don't want to be in Scotland. So it wasn't popular in England. And especially once Scotland started to cost England, which it wasn't supposed to do. So they have to take it seriously now. And Edward finds it easier to sell the Scottish War

• 26:04Speaker 04

  year on year after this coming back, because the English lost, because they want to erase that from the collective memory. So, yes, and so in some ways. It makes it easier for Edward to reconquer Scotland in the succeeding years.

• 26:19Matt Lewis?

  It's interesting. So, Stirling kind of creates this impression that Scotland has done something to England now.

• 26:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:24Matt Lewis?

  They've offended England and we need vengeance for that, and that hadn't existed before.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  You're absolutely right. And this is the terrible thing about wars. It doesn't matter who starts it because very quickly, somebody, the other side does something to you and then therefore you're absolutely right. You've got a reason to keep going. It doesn't really matter who started it. It's catastrophic on both sides and both sides. But I'm sure committed war crimes and all the usual stuff, they certainly banded that to each other. So, yeah, it's horrific.

• 26:50Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Should we think of Stirling as William Wallace's victory or Andrew Murray's victory? Or is it a combination of the two?

• 26:58Speaker 04

  I don't think we can separate, you know, who came up with the idea to do this. I mean, they seem to work well together, which is interesting. Andrew Murray's name comes first because he's the higher, has the higher status. But his death, and we don't know how quickly he died. It's possible that he sustained quite serious wounds in the Battle of Stirling Bridge and was pretty much out the game from then on. But that leaves the Scots with a conundrum. Their king is in England. Murray would have been very acceptable as a guardian, which is the Scottish office for holding the post of king if the king is incapacitated or not there. So they probably hold off in kind of announcing his death or just pretend he's still alive while they try and sort that conundrum out.

• 27:42Speaker 04

  So the letters, the Lubec letter that has Wallace's seal in it is written in both their names. It's just that his seal's on that one and Andrew Murray's is on the other one, to Hamburg. So quite clearly, people step into the breach again, probably the churchmen. Oh, right. Okay. This is what we need to do. We need to have a functioning chancery. You know, we need to put the mechanisms of state back in place to some extent. And Wallace would not have any experience, as far as we can tell, of that side of things. He's a soldier. So they would be allowed to get on with organising Scotland. Because very quickly after Stirling Bridge, Wallace, all the English garrisons, apart from Berwick Castle, are expelled. There's no English soldiers or administrators left. Cressingham is killed very brutally at Stirling Bridge.

• 28:28Speaker 04

  You kind of feel that Murray's death was a great shame for the Scots because making Wallace guardian, I mean, who is he? He's not even a knight. That is problematic, but they do go down that route because they don't have any choice. There isn't anybody else. So yeah, they just have to get on with it, make it up as they go along.

• 28:49Matt Lewis?

  Just before we leave Stirling Bridge behind us, is there any truth do we know to the myth, the story, the legend that Wallace made himself a sword belt and a scabbard out of Cressingham's skin?

• 28:59Speaker 04

  I think that was true. That's in a contemporary chronicle. I mean, and it does feed into the legend of Wallace. But again, coming back to the question you asked me early on is, you know, his motivation for the initial murder of William Heswick. You can see a visceral anger in him. He is really angry. Now, whether that's personal or whether that's about the situation Scotland's found itself in, we'll never know. And he, Cressingham, is the big bogeyman, that the cartoon villain figure of the English regime. He's the one who's been dinning people for money and going on and on at the Scots by paying up huge taxes they're not used to for Edward's wars. And I mean, England is groaning under Edward's taxation. So you can imagine that the Scots who are just not used to it feel that as

• 29:42Speaker 04

  a nationalist issue, rather than just a kind of an oppressive issue, which it certainly is. So I do feel that because Cressingham was so symptomatic of the oppression of the English regime, that it is entirely possible that he did that and that everybody cheered him on to do it. I mean, to us, that's the absolute tragedy of this war, given the good relationship between Scotland and England before 1296, is the utter hatred on both sides that grew up so quickly and which was so hard to get rid of.

• 30:13Matt Lewis?

  Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Henry III, who managed to maintain a really, really good relationship with Scotland for a very, very long time, which his son then came along and completely utterly wrecked.

• 30:23Speaker 04

  Utterly mek'd.

• 30:24Matt Lewis?

  What does it mean for Wallace to be made? You mentioned he's made guardian of Scotland, perhaps in the absence of Andrew Murray. Is that an established office that is used often in Scotland? There's, there's not really a parallel in England, is there? Till the 15th century, when you get something like a protector, but you get regents in France. Is it, is it that kind of feel of, of a regency?

• 30:42Speaker 04

  That's it. Exactly. The minute you get primogeniture as your method of deciding who's king, then you're going to get minorities. So you would tend to then have somebody put in and, and this has happened before. And it's most recently happened when the Scottish king, this, this is what kicked the whole thing off. The Scottish King Alexander III died much earlier than he should have done. And there are guardians put in representing the church, the earls and the lords. You know, it's all, it's all very carefully balanced. It's a very civilized and effective way of, of, of working in the absence of the, the balancing boards of the king. So, so the Scots are used to, to that and they did a very good job in a very difficult situation before the John Balliol was chosen as king. So this guardianship is, is traditional.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  One person, I think what's different about this is it's not normally one person. It's normally a bit more of a, a spread of interests. And I think, I mean, I'm sure Wallace would have been guardian, but along with Andrew Murray would have been slightly easier on, on the Scots in terms of, of, of habit and custom. So, so yes, the fact that he becomes a single sole guardian is, is unusual. And in fact, when, to jump ahead, sorry, what happens next? The next guardians are again, the two representatives of the leading opposing families in Scottish politics, which is what you would expect.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from Ted's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over a hundred dollars off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 32:49Speaker 05

  Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast from History Hit. Twice a week, join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were. That's the Ancients from History Hit.

• 33:34Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, it's interesting then that we get one single guardian and that that is Wallace, who as you say, you know, he's not even knighted at this point, he's not a significant political actor in Scotland, but he's also, he's kind of the sharp end of the sword, isn't he? He's, he's the vicious front of this, you know, he's killing sheriffs and to the point where someone who is with him is going back and almost apologising for, you know, sorry for what Wallace has just done, I'll help you out with this fire kind of thing.

• 34:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:01Matt Lewis?

  And all of a sudden, you're putting this man, this blunt instrument, front and centre and in charge of the whole country. Does that suggest that Scotland was, was absolutely behind Wallace at this point? Or is there another reason maybe that he's, he's set there as an outlier?

• 34:17Speaker 04

  He is a total outlier. And of course, his weakness is that he doesn't have a political party behind him or a group of, of nobles. He is backed by some of them, probably more in the Bruce faction. The Commons, who have returned to Scotland, they don't take part in Stirling Bridge, but now they do start to, to show their colours, as they were described as doing against England. They think they should be running the show, but obviously they failed. They, they were the ones who allowed Edward to come in and lost in 1296. So Wallace is there because he did a job and Wallace has proved he's good at that job. And you're absolutely right, he is, he is what Scotland needs in that he can take his men and go rampaging, as, as he does after Stirling Bridge, and to take the war into

• 35:00Speaker 04

  England and try to persuade England that they don't want this, they really don't want this, didn't work. But it's also a period, we shouldn't forget, of declining climate. We've getting bad harvests, we're getting very, very cold winters, the medieval sort of warm period is weakening. And so there are a lot of places where there's famine. And I think both sides raid the other side in order to get grain and cattle to feed their own people. So that dimension, Wallace certainly does that. He goes into Northumberland and Cumberland, the northern counties of England. And then there's retaliatory raids by the English for

• 35:40Speaker 04

  the same reason. And so it acts as both engines and a part of the war effort and just in some cases, pure survival. So that's going to become a theme for the war as well.

• 35:52Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, it's interesting because we often think, we often talk about, you know, how far Wallace gets into England and how much of a threat that might have appeared to the English. It's interesting that that might have been about getting supplies and also a little bit about rather than, you know, an act of almost conquest in return. This is more about saying to the English, you know what, Scotland's more trouble than you actually need right now. Why don't you just leave us alone?

• 36:14Speaker 04

  I think that's exactly right. That's exactly what the Scots are trying to say. But I think, I mean, Wallace does this. It's a tactic that the Scots employ time and again. And Robert Bruce does it par excellence. But it doesn't work because England is a huge country. The king sits in the south of it. And although the northern counties of England suffer dreadfully in this war, because it is right in the war zone, as do the border counties of Scotland, but particularly northern England and later, it doesn't matter to the king. He's not got as much money. Okay, the taxes are not rolling in from the north, but he's got the rest of England. And so he just doesn't care. And so you cannot force an English king to capitulate

• 36:58Speaker 04

  on Scotland from that method. But then it's very hard to see what else you can do. Because as you say, the Scots are not going to conquer England. That's just daft. So all they can really do is wreak havoc and take as much as they can from England.

• 37:12Matt Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's horrible.

• 37:13Matt Lewis?

  And all of this is going to lead to what will be a significant reversal for William Wallace at the Battle of Falkirk. Can you talk us through what leads to that? How do the armies end up coming together at Falkirk?

• 37:24Speaker 04

  Yes. Well, initially after Stirling Bridge, you know, Surrey goes home with his tail between his legs and goes down to England because Edward's still away and sort of reports to the Regency Government nominally under the control of Prince Edward, but he's still fourteen or something, he's not very old. And he, sorry, organises another army to come back into Scotland and sort of does manage to stave Berwick, you know, so there's a few, you know, there's a toehold the English have. But Edward, of course, who's still, even when he takes a long time to come back, he doesn't seem that bothered, or at least he's more bothered by what's going on in the continent and getting a peace deal with Philip. But he basically says, just stop. It's a kind of, if you want something done,

• 38:07Speaker 04

  do it yourself. I'll be back, I'll sort it out. Just, just don't do anything, really. You're hopeless. So, so that's exactly what happens. So the orders, I mean, hats off to Edward. I mean, he's just campaigned right through the winter and the continent, Flanders, and now he's signing up for the next campaign over the summer in Scotland, which is not really, wasn't really on his agenda. But there, there we are. So the orders, the muster orders go throughout England to go north again. But what Wallace does, which is very, very savvy, is use the scorched earth policy in Lothian, in the borders. So he guesses rightly that the English are going to come up the eastern route, probably because they

• 38:48Speaker 04

  may know where the muster is to take place. So they basically destroy everything, all the crops, remove all the livestock. There's supposed to be one cow left in the entirety of Lothian. And combined with that, because this is another major component of warfare that probably doesn't always get as due, is contrary wind. Because of course, they do have supplies, the English have supplies, but if the wind's going the wrong direction, the boats can't sail up to Scotland. And that's exactly what happens. They are running out of food and they end up near Edinburgh and they've no idea where Wallace is. And what Edward's really worried about is that Wallace is going to Outmaneuver him, he's going to come down underneath him and raid the north of England,

• 39:29Speaker 04

  which in reflection would have been a more sensible idea, while there's nobody there almost. So he is concerned about that. And then the two Scottish earls who are on the English side, and always, and always were, they inform Edward where Wallace is, and he's at Falkirk. Well, they have to basically jog overnight through Llann Liffgo and on to Falkirk. It's about, I don't know, it's about 20 miles, something like that. And Edward is stood on by his horse, he has a quick kip and he's stood on by his horse. He's got broken ribs as well. I do have to take my hat off to him sometimes. He's, you can't fault his energy. Wallace has got a lot of flak for Falkirk. I, I think that's unfair, because what Wallace has done is choose his site.

• 40:10Speaker 04

  He's, he's on a, an incline hill. There's a bog at the bottom. Because what the Scots are expecting, which is what the English usually throw at them, is a cavalry charge, because that's what they've tended to do. But Edward, particularly through his Welsh wars, now has a lot of Welsh bowmen in his army. And he, well, again, there's, it's not quite clear exactly how the battle was fought. But what seems to have been the case is that there might have been an initial cavalry charge that wasn't sanctioned by the king. The king didn't say, off you go. Two brigades, as usual, kind of vying noblemen, tank at the Scots, have to veer round the bog

• 40:53Speaker 04

  and then start charging uphill. Now, that's exactly what the Scots want, because pikemen can deal with that. But Edward manages to get them back and then unleash the bowmen who pick holes. The Scottish infantry formation is called a chotrim, just like a hedgehog, basically, with these, so large in a body of men with spears. You, you did see a bit of that in Braveheart to repel cavalry, that's what it's designed for, and, and it's, it's a very good way of, of doing that. But bowmen, there's nothing they can do. So the bowmen start picking holes in the chotrim. There are some Scottish cavalry and some bowmen, two Scottish bowmen, but they're tiny numbers. There's nothing they can do to protect. The shield trims. So once there are enough holes in the shield trims, then the English cavalry

• 41:38Speaker 04

  can sweep through and knock them apart because they're not the tight, bristling formation that they should be. So that seems to have been what happened. So it's not necessarily that the bowmen won Falkirk, but they certainly played an important part in negating the Scottish sensible tactic against what they expected from Edward. So yes, you may have heard that the Scottish cavalry don't come out in glowing colours out of this one. The commons, they all run away, but so Wallace, to be fair. But I think they recognised there was nothing they could do. You know, the game was over and they, like Wallace, thought it's better to leave now and fight another day and just

• 42:18Speaker 04

  take part, be part of this, what is effectively a massacre. So English losses, very, very negligible. I mean, there probably were some infantry killed, they don't get counted. But in terms of important people, whereas I'm sure there was quite, we have no figures for the Scots, but it would have been a bit more carnage from that side of things.

• 42:39Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting because I think the usual view, and probably the one that I had before, is that Falkirk is where Wallace makes a mistake. He makes some kind of error, either he's overconfident, or it exposes the fact that Andrew Murray was actually the military genius behind what had happened at Stirling or something like that. But it sounds like he did everything as well as he possibly could have done. And in fact, it's a move by Edward to rely on his archers more that changes the dynamic of the battle in a way that Wallace couldn't really have expected.

• 43:07Speaker 04

  That would be my view. I mean, not all historians would agree with that. I mean, I suppose his mistake is to think that he could take on the English army in a pitched battle. This is not an ambush, like Stirling Bridge was. There was maybe a bit of hubris, but he would have been under a lot of pressure. You know, he's not, as we said before, you know, his guardianship is dependent on his military success. That's the only reason he's there. He doesn't have a political, political clout behind him. So he is probably under pressure. He maybe did think, okay, if I do it the traditional way, then Edward will be shown that, you know, Scotland isn't worth it, that we can take you on in any way you want and we'll win. And so that may be part of his thinking and he

• 43:49Speaker 04

  thought it through and he just wanted, he probably just wanted this all to end. In this battle, you know, although, as you know, battles rarely bring wars to an end, but unfortunately for Wallace, Falkirk spelled the end of his political career as guardian. He had no longer had any mandate to run Scotland. And whether he jumped or was pushed, who knows? The end result is, is that we end up with a more traditional two-person guardianship in the form of Robert Bruce Earl of Caer Wyrth and John Common of Badenoch, representing the two political factions in Scotland. And Wallace then, of course, he stays in Scotland for a little bit, but then he embarks on a change of career, which is to join the diplomatic corps.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 45:23Speaker 05

  Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast from History Hit. Twice a week, join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were. That's the Ancients from History Hit.

• 46:08Matt Lewis?

  And he spends a period kind of almost in exile, but in France, doesn't he? What is he doing there? Is he still, is he still pursuing the idea of Scottish independence? Is he still holding on to an idea that he can go back and lead anything?

• 46:21Speaker 04

  Yes, I mean, I think, again, you have to take your hat off to Wallace as well. You know, this is a man who he's got his eyes on the prize, just like the first. He wants an independent Scotland and he will, you know, not leave any potential stone unturned. And trying to find a way through to that. So yes, he goes to France. We know that he was at the court, we know for sure that he's at the court of Philip IV, who is just making a truce with Edward. Well, their, their, their relationship is marginally better. It's never good, but it's marginally better than it had been. But Philip is still happy to encourage the Scots. It's the usual things. If the Scots do something for France, that's great. France probably won't be stir itself very much for Scotland. We haven't seen the old alliance.

• 47:05Speaker 04

  The treaty between Scotland and France that was supposed to be mutual aid didn't really work from the Scottish point of view, because they were left to England. But Philip is very happy to loan Wallace some money. And to also, what he also does is write a letter of recommendation to the Pope, Boniface VIII, in Rome. Now, we don't know if Wallace made it to Rome. We know he had, well, no, this is hugely controversial and I'll get into trouble. The National Archives in London has the letter of recommendation. There's big, huge debate about how the English got it. I think for many people, and I was on a committee set up to look into that, and both the Scots and the French, in a nice tie-up there,

• 47:50Speaker 04

  agreed that most likely explanation is when Wallace was captured, he had a lot of letters on him and that that's how it found its way into the Tower of London and then subsequently to the National Archives. But the truth of that will never be known for sure. So anyway, Philip gives Wallace this letter of recommendation. He, he goes to the continent with a number of notables who are associated with the king, the Scottish king, John Baelio, who by this time has been released into papal custody, but in France, in papal lands in France. And then the French king acquires John Baelio, we're not quite sure how. And Baileal ends up in his ancestral lands in Picardy in the north of France. And we're, we know that Wallace must have gone to see John Baileal.

• 48:33Speaker 04

  Because again, when Wallace is captured, he has a letter, a safe conduct from John Baileal, that he couldn't have got at any other point, because by the time Wallace was rebelling, Baileal was in English custody. So again, what's fascinating, and despite the fact that his brother is in the retinue of the Earl of Carrick, who wants to be king, Wallace just goes, do you know, I'm not interested in the whole kingship issue, because that is just going to allow the English to conquer us more easily. We don't want to reopen that. Baileal's the king, I'm fighting for him. End of story. And, and, and that is, that is what he does. So he's very, he, he is very good at seeing through the garbage of Scottish politics, or any politics, and going straight for what is most likely to get Scottish independence. And, and, and

• 49:17Speaker 04

  John Baileal is still at that point seen as the rightful king of Scots by most Scots, apart from the Bruce's. So, um, he, he's conforming to that. So he spends two, three years. Uh, where does he go? He, he goes 1299, 1300. He comes back to Scotland in 1303. And what's interesting then is by this time, we've had the uneasy relationship between two men who hated each other, Robert Bruce and John Common. John Common is the sole guardian. So Robert Bruce does really well, bearing in mind that his family had fought against Scots in the initial conquest in 1296. He's done very well in, in convincing people that he's worth supporting to the point of becoming a guardian, even with John

• 50:00Speaker 04

  Common, who we'd expect, who he would expect to be guardian. But it's a very uneasy relationship. It's, it's very noticeable that Robert Bruce tries really hard not to say that he's guardian in the name of King John. And it's John Common who insists that that is exactly what he is. The Commons related to John Baileal and backing John, John Baileal. So eventually the Commons managed to force Bruce out. There's, there's a bit of argy-bargy and fisticuffs. That's how we know that Malcolm Wallace was in the retinue of the Earl of Carrick. It is a very unseemly scuffle in Selkirk Forest, when one of the adherents of John Common, the guardian, accuses William Wallace of treason.

• 50:42Speaker 04

  Because he's going, he's about to go to the continent. And, and they, maybe they suspect that William might also be arguing for the Bruce claim to the throne, since his brother's with the Earl of Carrick. I, I don't think there's any evidence that William would have done that. But whatever, they're taking exception to him going without anybody saying so. Because again, Wallace disclaims and ploughs his own furrow, doesn't ask the guardians permission. And then John Common seizes Bruce by the throat and yeah, they, they don't get on. And, and eventually, of course, one of them will murder the other. So when Wallace comes back to Scotland in thirteen oh three, by this time, it's John Common is the, is the sole guardian. You've got rid of Bruce. And what's interesting is that William Wallace slots in as a commander of the Scottish Army that is, although they don't know it, is going to try to deal with the final push by Edward the first to reconquer Scotland.

• 51:26Speaker 04

  Edward has, has managed to get pretty much up to the fourth and he's hoping to get over the fourth into northern Scotland, which is what you might call free Scotland, where the guardians have operated out of. And, and that's exactly what he does. And he manages to winter in Scotland over thirteen oh three to four, which is a major achievement, even just in having the cash to pay soldiers. So he manages to do that, which he hasn't done before. The Scots are sensible, they operate in the southwest of Scotland while Edward's in the northeast, because a lot of the men have been withdrawn from the English garrison. So they think they might be able to capture them, but they can't. So by the beginning of thirteen oh four, John Common decides to sue for peace. He decides that that Scotland's exhausted. Edward is now in, in his part of Scotland, John Common's part. So he makes terms and they're very good terms.

• 52:11Speaker 04

  And, you know, they, they basically attest to Scottish success at holding England at bay. And most, almost all, there were a few exceptions made that didn't make it to the final cut. All Scottish noblemen could get their lands back, wouldn't lose lives or limbs, you know, they would be intact to get their lands back. And Edward does, he, he initially thinks that they should serve some time in exile. And then he thinks, actually, no, I want hard cash. That's what I need more. So there's a series of fines before they get their lands back. The one exception that does stick right to the, to make it into that agreement is Wallace. Wallace's de Grovel.

• 52:50Speaker 04

  Wallace is to throw himself on Edward's mercy and Edward wasn't promising anything to him. And I think what you have is two characters who are probably very similar in their single-mindedness, their, their ability, their energy. And Wallace is never going to agree to that. So you have stories about him and his mother wandering around Dunfermline. That's actually where Edward was during the winter of thirteen oh three to four. I think what Wallace does is try to get out of Scotland. He is chased off, well, he's chased off with Simon Fraser, who's someone that will go on to support Bruce in the Borges, where Simon Fraser's

• 53:30Speaker 04

  lands are. Fraser then submits to Edward. He's one of the last to do that. Stirling Castle falls to Edward. That's in Outlaw King, if you saw that. So that's the last garrison to fall to Edward. So it's just Wallace, really. And everybody is, all the Scots, and this is, this is understandable, but very distasteful. All the Scots who've just submitted are supposed to be out looking for Wallace. He's chased off from Dundee by the English garrison there. And I think that's a port city. And that's why, I mean, I don't know about you, but when you go on the run, do you take your archive with you? And he's got all these letters of protection from, from before. So that's what it seems to me that he's trying to do. He's trying to get out and get to

• 54:12Speaker 04

  the, get to France. And, and, and a number of Scots were in France and did stay there. He ends up, of course, being betrayed, as they put it, but it was just the bad luck of Sir John Manteith that it's on, in his jurisdiction that Wallace has found. And thank goodness, from Robert Bruce's point of view, because he is now, he's submitted and he is an officer for Edward the First. Wallace wasn't found in his jurisdiction and handed over. And, you know, once, and there's loads of Scots, I mean, of all stripes, all classes, prepared to spy on Wallace, prepared to hand him over, because that was the thing now that was, that was stopping respite from this war. Whether the Scots were genuine in thinking, yeah, we'll make peace, it's, it's over. Or whether they just thought, you know what, we'll have a few years of peace,

• 54:57Speaker 04

  and then we might go again, because Edward's getting on a bit when Edward goes. I suspect the latter, but we can't prove that.

• 55:03Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, but you can imagine, I think it's easy to imagine William Wallace wanting to leave Scotland, simply because this is a man who has, has focused everything that he has on achieving Scottish independence. He must have felt like he'd been sold out by his fellow Scots who have now caved. I imagine in his view, caved to the English. And not only that, but they're after him as well. He must have thought, like, what is the point? I might as well just go.

• 55:26Speaker 04

  I I don't see, I don't have a problem. I don't think it detracts from Wallace's stature in Scottish history. To say that he wouldn't, when he left Falkirk, why would he not leave now and fight another day? You know, Bailey was in in France, you know, maybe he thought he could persuade the French king to invade. Who knows? But yeah, I I don't have a problem with it. It seems eminently sensible to me, but he didn't manage it.

• 55:49Matt Lewis?

  And I suppose, having been captured, then he he's taken to London for, I mean, essentially a show trial. Edward is very keen to make a spectacle of Wallace, isn't he? What does Edward charge Wallace with? And how does Wallace defend himself?

• 56:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, it's treason in medieval law. That's self evident. I mean, you just read the charges out. You did this. You called, well, there's the merger. And that's not going away. And that's how we know about it, actually, to be honest, apart from the the Scala Chronicle, the Thomas Gray thing. So so you can read the list of charges against Wallace that he called parliaments, that he raised armies, that he put in officers of state and got rid of English ones, as Wallace's success says. But obviously, from the English king's point of view, he had absolutely no business at doing that. And there is no resolving that circle. So, I mean, as far as Edward is concerned, the Scots had submitted to him in 1296. The Pope had exonerated them of their oaths of loyalty to him.

• 56:44Speaker 04

  They said it was under duress, which is an excuse. But people say, oh, Wallace didn't seal the Radman law. No, he he wouldn't. He's a younger son. His his father may have done. So, you know, he doesn't have a leg to stand on as far as English law is concerned. So they just read out the charges. They do say that Wallace did speak in his defence, although he knew that it was pointless in terms of the the result. And and basically, he just said, you you you have no right to judge me. You have you have no jurisdiction over me. You have no right to Scotland. And and again, you know, as far as English is concerned, self definitely, they do. So, yeah, the end result, which is the hanging, drawing and watering, it was never in in doubt. And it's it's timed to mark the beginning of the St Bartholomew's Fair in London.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  So it's part of that that spectacle, as you say, it was very much designed to be a spectacle and and put an end to the whole Scottish thing. As far as England was concerned.

• 57:39Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, and a brutal way to go as well in front of a significant crowd. What would you say is the immediate legacy of Wallace's life and death, you know, in the the months and years after he dies? Where does Wallace sit in Scottish culture then?

• 57:53Speaker 04

  Well, I think that Wallace does represent, and almost immediately, and possibly even at the time, is this being above Scottish politics, because obviously Scottish politics is going to take a very serious diversion with the murder of John Common, who was probably, in my view, setting himself up to become John Ballyo's replacement. John Ballyo gave up his title to Scotland to the French king. He's not coming back. John Common is John Ballyo's nephew, his nearest living relative in Scotland. John Ballyo's son Edward is in England. The Commons themselves have some vague credentials to the throne. They're not very good, but but they are circulated at this time. And I think it's because Robert

• 58:35Speaker 04

  Bruce realises that John Common, who's led the Scots for most of the previous period of warfare, the minute Edward dies, and everyone can see that's not going to be long, that John Common will get himself to scoon, the traditional inauguration place for Scottish kings, and be made king before Bruce can make a move. So that, in my view, again controversial, is why Bruce murders him before Edward dies, which is very tricky. So for Wallace, for many Scots, given that Scotland is then thrown into civil war as well as war with England, many churchmen as well, Wallace symbolises someone who doesn't play those kinds of games, who doesn't play politics, who's not interested in their family's self, his family's self

• 59:20Speaker 04

  a grandeur, that is like the churchmen, fighting for Scottish independence and not for personal reasons. So so I think that that is his immediate legacy is that sense of devotion to Scotland that that carries right through to Braveheart, well, through Blind Harry and into Braveheart. And and and I think we'll never leave him. And I think it's fair. I mean, that's what nobles do. They just try and acquire more. And Wallace didn't seem to gain anything much. Well, obviously, he died in the cause of Scottish independence. But but even, you know, as guardian, he didn't make lots of money or get lots of lands, you know, which is highly unusual. So I think he can genuinely

• 1:00:02Speaker 04

  be seen as a fairly selfless patriot, as far as we can tell.

• 1:00:06Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, it's fascinating. And as you say, you know, he becomes a subject for for poets and writers. And, you know, up until 30 years ago, well, movie makers can be added to that list, albeit that film is Braveheart. And maybe the truth, the the history isn't quite correct in the film, but

• 1:00:23Speaker 04

  Spoiler alert.

• 1:00:24Matt Lewis?

  But he's still there, isn't he, as part of the Scottish National Consciousness? What does William Wallace mean in Scotland today?

• 1:00:29Speaker 04

  That period is incredible in Scottish history for having these two colossus, if you like, colossi in Wallace and Bruce. And of course, very early on, it happens in Braveheart, but it happens early on in Scottish Chronicles 2 and and the Blind Harry's poem is that there has to be a relationship between Wallace and Bruce, and that after Falkirk, Wallace hands on his fight to Bruce, which, as far as we're aware, didn't happen. I don't think Robert Bruce was at Falkirk, but let's not spoil the good story. You know, that mantle was handed to Robert Bruce, and he will fulfill Wallace's promise, which is utter nonsense. The only promise Bruce was fulfilling was to himself. But that's another story. So he's very, very important in terms of the success.

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  I mean, the irony is, of course, Wallace wasn't successful, but but he did kickstart something that ultimately was successful. So he's part of a story that not always is true in Scottish history, that was about success and not just failure, even though in individual battles, of course, Wallace lost. So he's he's very, very important. And of course, he becomes a working class hero in sort of 18th and 19th centuries, because he's seen as a man of people, which, again, I think is justified, even even if class wise, that's not particularly true. He's not a peasant. But I think the fact, again, that he's not a nobleman in the in the political sense, it means that he can be appropriated. As a working class hero, and he still is very, very much. He never sold out, unlike

• 1:01:55Speaker 04

  Robert Bruce, who changed sides many times. William Wallace never did that. And the other thing about him, which we alluded to at the beginning, is how little we know about him. So you can paint him any way you like. You can put a backstory on that's all about romance and vengeance and it's black and white, you know, that his wrong was done to him and he righted that wrong, whether that's his wife or whether that's Scotland. So he's very easy to make into anything you want him to be. And he has been made into that. But I think at heart, there is a fascinating and core story about someone who didn't compromise, whom I wouldn't have wanted to argue with in any way anymore. Now we don't argue with

• 1:02:38Speaker 04

  Edward the First, but who had his eyes on the prize and did in the end make the ultimate sacrifice.

• 1:02:45Matt Lewis?

  And to some extent, he feels like someone who, had he not come up against someone as capable as Edward the First, might have even achieved more success. It's kind of his misfortune that he arrived onto the scene in the face of one of the most capable English kings of the period.

• 1:03:00Speaker 04

  I think that's fair. Yeah, I mean, what happened at Falkirk, as I said before, is I don't think he can be blamed too much for that, other than fighting the battle at all. And yes, Edward, you know, really, he was so dedicated to whatever task he had in mind and to, and he really learnt from the Scottish wars, how to fight the Scots. So yes, it was a great misfortune for Wallace that it was Edward the First and not Edward the Second, whom of course, Robert Bruce was up against only five years later, so.

• 1:03:32Matt Lewis?

  This has been absolutely fascinating, Fiona. I feel like you've uncovered for me new sides to William Wallace, and I find him impressive in brand new ways that have nothing to do with the Braveheart film anymore. I wanted to ask you three quickfire questions before we finish. Two, I think, are easy to answer. The other one might be a little bit trickier. Did William Wallace ever wear a kilt?

• 1:03:49Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:03:53Speaker 04

  He did come from Ayrshire, so it is a Gaelic speaking part of Scotland because it's on the coast and the Gales were all over the coast. So, but no Celts, no.

• 1:04:01Matt Lewis?

  Did he ever paint his face blue?

• 1:04:02Speaker 04

  No, he might have buried his bottom. No, I don't.

• 1:04:07Speaker 04

  No, he didn't.

• 1:04:08Matt Lewis?

  Yeah, we'll leave it at that. He buried his bottom. We'll have that. But he didn't paint his face blue. If you and I were going to make an historically accurate film about William Wallace and his life, who could you see playing William Wallace on screen?

• 1:04:23Speaker 04

  Oh, that's a, that's a tricky question. Gosh. I actually think we would have to follow in the spirit of Wallace and we would have to search the schemes of Glasgow or Edinburgh or Dundee or wherever Aberdeen and find a new face of William Wallace because that would be exactly like him. He came from obscurity to greatness. So I think that's what we'd have to do. Cop out.

• 1:04:46Matt Lewis?

  That sounds like a night out in Glasgow though. You and I can go and find the next face of William Wallace. That sounds like a good night out. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining us Fiona. It's been absolutely fascinating to get to know William Wallace a little bit better. And just a quick reminder that Mike Livingston's fantastic new documentary about William Wallace is out now on History Hit and you can catch Fiona sitting with Mike in Edinburgh, talking all about William Wallace in that as well. Really enjoyed our chat. Thank you.

• 1:05:12Speaker 04

  No, absolute pleasure, Matt. Thank you.

• 1:05:15Matt Lewis?

  I hope you enjoyed this episode and continue to enjoy Braveheart despite its departure from the true story. If you haven't listened to our medieval movie nights episode, you can find it in our back catalogue and listen to Eleanor and I musing about our favourite medieval films. Last week, there was also an episode on Edward the First, the Hammer of the Scots, to have a look at William Wallace's story from the other side. There are new installments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back and join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can sign up to History Hit to access hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new

• 1:05:57Matt Lewis?

  release every week and all of History Hit's podcasts ad free. Head to historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 1:06:06Matt Lewis?

  Anyway, I'd better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis and we've just gone medieval with history hits.

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