Navy SEAL Operator: From 9/11 to Fighting ISIS | Joe Taverner

Former Navy SEAL Joe Taverner joins us to discuss his career from joining the Navy before 9/11 to deployments in the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the fight against ISIS. He breaks down hunting Abu Sayyaf in Zamboanga, working with Polish GROM in Baghdad, the Battle of Najaf, and the 2016 Battle of Tel Skuf where Charlie Keating was killed in action. This episode also covers leadership after loss, how the SEAL Teams evolved during the GWOT, and Joe’s current work in directed energy weapons, laser defense, and counter-drone technology. https://www.aureliussystems.com/ Today's Sponsor: Quince⬇️ go to: https://www.quince.com/house for free shipping and 365 day returns GhostBed ⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! Blue Chew ⬇️ https://bluechew.com/ Get 1 month free when you buy 2 of BlueChew Gold with code "HOUSECALL" For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ PRE ORDER JACK'S NEW BOOK "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN" ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/803651/the-most-dangerous-man-by-jack-murphy/paperback/ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 — Start 01:08 — Joining the Navy in 1999 and choosing the SEAL Teams 03:31 — 9/11 during workups and the war becoming real 05:31 — First deployment: the Philippines, Zamboanga, and Abu Sayyaf 10:27 — Hunting Abu Sabaya and the boat interdiction mission 13:24 — From pre-9/11 FID missions to real combat deployments 16:41 — Iraq 2004: working with Polish GROM in Baghdad 19:46 — The Battle of Najaf and fighting through urban combat 24:04 — Iraq 2007: Haditha, partner forces, and the SEAL Teams evolving 31:10 — Afghanistan 2009: Khost, partner forces, and the CIA base attack 36:08 — Afghanistan 2014: the Tangi Valley, firefights, and tribal realities 40:12 — Iraq 2016: Mosul, ISIS, and the Battle of Tel Skuf 48:43 — Charlie Keating killed in action and the medevac under fire 51:13 — Leading after loss: keeping the platoon focused after Charlie’s death 01:04:52 — Transitioning out of the military and finding the next mission 01:07:13 — Directed energy weapons, laser defense, and the future of counter-drone warfare 01:20:31 — TBI, veteran recovery programs, Home Base, and closing thoughts Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:28Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. This is episode 410 of The Team House. My name is Jack Murphy, and we are here with our guest today, Joe Taverner. He is a former Navy SEAL. Joined the Navy in 1999, served in SEAL Team One, deployments to Afghanistan, Iraq, Asia-Pacific Theater, and all the way up to the battle against ISIS in around 2018, 2019. And now works in the private sector, working on directed energy defense systems and other cool gadgets. We're going to talk all about that stuff in this interview. Joe, thank you for joining us.

• 2:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, thank you. Glad to be here.

• 2:08Jack Murphy?

  So, Joe, the first question I always ask about your origin story. If you can tell us a little bit about your upbringing and why you joined the Navy. I mean, 1999, America is supposedly at peace during this timeframe.

• 2:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, that's exactly what it was. And, you know, just still growing up for whatever, whatever reason it was, you know, I didn't grow up in a military family. I had an uncle in Vietnam. My brother had done, uh, you know, four years as a, as a CB in the Navy and did everything he could to convince me not to join on what a horrible idea it was. Uh, but for, you know, just the growing up, I really felt the, uh, the desire to, uh, do my part, put in whatever time it was gonna, gonna take. Uh, and kind of, you know, I just felt it was partially kind of my responsibility to serve back to the country, you know, that, that has protected us and done

• 3:05Speaker 03

  everything for us. So at the same time, I'd grown up as an athlete, you know, ran cross country and track all the way through high school, college, um, and liked kind of the, the small unit, the teams, the small group that that is and work together, count on each other. Uh, so when I kind of decided, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna enlist, I'm gonna serve after college, I wanted to be with a, with a great group, a great team and, and, you know, unit that I could count on, uh, to be there. So I enlisted in July of 99 after I graduated in June, uh, with a contract to go to BUDS. So I went through boot camp, A school, and then immediately checked into BUDS in January of 2000.

• 3:47Jack Murphy?

  Where did, uh, like, you know, I'm just curious, you know, in the, growing up in the 1990s, how did you even know about the Navy SEALs? How did that come up on your radar as a, as a young man?

• 3:57Speaker 03

  Uh, well, so I, I spent three years as an, as an engineering major, uh, but graduated with history. So, uh, I'd always loved history. I loved reading a lot. Uh, I read a lot of Vietnam books, World War II, and, and, uh, just through kind of that avid reading and, and just researching on history, uh, I had learned about, you know, both the, the army as well. But for whatever reason, it was the, the SEAL teams that kind of

• 4:24Jack Murphy?

  Resonated.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  Caught my eye a little bit more, right? Resonated a little bit more. And, and so that's the direction I decided to go.

• 4:32Jack Murphy?

  So tell us a little bit about, you know, if I'm looking at my notes here, were you at Bud's when nine 11 happened?

• 4:42Speaker 03

  No, when nine 11 happened, I was, we were doing a workup. I was actually up in St. Clemente. We were doing the soldiers training at Camp Pendleton and woke up in the morning and turned on the news and the first tower had already been struck and, you know, I'm sitting there watching the news, trying to figure out like, what's the deal? What's going on? And, you know, watched, watched the second plane impact that, you know, the second tower and, and knew the second that that happened, that everything just changed that, you know, the training we're doing, everything got very real very quickly.

• 5:18Jack Murphy?

  What kind of orders or what kind of information was coming down from higher to the, to you guys at the team level, at the platoon level?

• 5:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was, there wasn't, I think initially at least, there wasn't really a lot going on. The initial, you know, we were up at Camp Pendleton, like I said, doing a bunch of work, but I know that, that night I got called back as, you know, you're the new guy. So you get to go do security and we had, you know, machine gun nests up on all the roofs and, you know, security was crazy trying to get back on Pendleton the next morning. Took a significant amount of time, but at that point, I think the focus was pretty drastically shifted, I should say. It wasn't like, hey, this is all fun now. We're just going to go and do whatever. Now it's like, okay, this is like very, very serious.

• 6:09Speaker 03

  Pretty quickly afterwards, I think that, you know, the realization of what had really happened and taken place, you see that you saw the Pennsylvania and the Pentagon and everything else that happened and you started getting some of the intel back of, you know, the responsibility and what happened in, in the direction that we were going to go, I think as a, as a nation.

• 6:31Jack Murphy?

  And then your first deployment was actually to the Philippines rather than Afghanistan or Iraq that was coming down the line.

• 6:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was. We had kind of already had some, some groups set up. They did pull from all the platoons to kind of create some additional units going to Afghanistan as well. But my specific platoon, we had already kind of been designated. And so the Philippines it was. So off we, there we were in, yeah, 2002, in Southern Philippines down, down in Zambu. And I think we'd, you know, kind of mentioned the, there had been a lot of planning done, a lot of, a lot of the initial planning for, you know, with the Taliban and, and, well, Al Qaeda, I should say, I guess, the planning from Al Qaeda and what they had done over

• 7:24Speaker 03

  the Philippines and Indonesia and that role that, that that had in the attack on the Twin Towers. And, and so even though we were over in the Philippines instead, there, there definitely was still the feeling that it was still an important place and a place that we needed to get control of.

• 7:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Do you want to lay out kind of like the, the situation in 2002 in, in Zambu? Because, you know, at that time especially, anything, any international terrorist group that even remotely touched Al Qaeda or like money, terror, terror money coming out of the Middle East, it was like game on at that point.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was. And, and we had a great working relationship there with a lot of the, the Filipinos, you know, special forces, the SEALs, the Nassau guys, and then a lot of their other intelligence groups. And so we, we helped do a lot of targeting. We were actively very involved in the Abisaf group and Abisabaya, the,

• 8:27Speaker 03

  Turned into the operation to eliminate him, take him off the battlefield as he was one of the big leaders of kind of that movement in Southern Philippines. So it was a great mission to be a part of. When I went back to the Philippines years later, part of Abu Sabaya's boat was still up on the wall there in the Marine Corps Museum. So it was kind of an interesting thing to see to get to go back and talk to the Commandant of the Marine Corps and explain how I had been a part of that mission that is now at, you know, up on the wall along with Sabaya's sunglasses.

• 8:58Jack Murphy?

  And Abu Sabaya, if I recall correctly, he was like their propagandist? Was that was his primary job?

• 9:05Speaker 03

  That was a big part of what he did. He was the definitely kind of the larger than life figure, you know, he was kind of a key person for the obvious AF group, but it definitely was, you know, he was, he was kind of the figurehead for sure that was on the news, that larger than life person always, you know, representing, I guess, the terrorist organization, even though I think at that point for him and a lot of what they did was kidnapping, kidnapping for ransom, just being involved, you know, in having that prior connection to okay to put a huge, a huge target on, on their back for us.

• 9:41Jack Murphy?

  I remember talking to some of the retired Filipino like Colonels, Marine Corps Colonels, you know, smoking a cigarette and like Abu Sabaya was very noisy. It's that like him out there.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, they, you know, they had kidnapped a lot of, and then one of the things that definitely did not help him and he was, they started kidnapping, you know, Americans, other people that wasn't, yeah, missionaries, exactly. And it wasn't just, you know, wealthy Filipinos anymore.

• 10:13Jack Murphy?

  The, uh, the Burnhams.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  Martha and yeah, Burnham, trying to think what her husband's name is.

• 10:20Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the, the husband was sadly killed in the rescue attempt, if I recall correctly.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. But, but we were there for the rescue for, for her and it was one of my medics that escorted her from that rescue back.

• 10:34Jack Murphy?

  Oh, really?

• 10:35Speaker 03

  Through northern, through northern, uh, the Philippines and then back to Japan.

• 10:39Jack Murphy?

  Did you, did you by chance work with a CIA officer named Kent Clisby?

• 10:45Speaker 03

  I don't recall the names of some of those. I wish I could recall all of the names of the people we worked with, but it's very possible.

• 10:51Jack Murphy?

  Kent, Kent sent me a picture of her coming off the helicopter that he took.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Oh, then.

• 10:58Jack Murphy?

  So must have.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, we definitely would have. Yeah.

• 11:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, Kent, Kent, we did a previous interview with Kent many years ago now. If you guys go deep, deep into the archives of this podcast, you'll find the interview with Kent Kalisby. Very interesting to hear his point of view. And actually, another guy, Ron Mohler, who was an agency, may have been Air Branch at that time. We have a couple of interviews with him where he was watching the whole operation unfold on the drone feed. But Joe, I mean, can you tell us about it from your perspective, what you experienced and what you saw?

• 11:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. But also, I will say that throughout the multiple decades of working with with the agency, very rarely did you get an actual first name.

• 11:42Jack Murphy?

  A real name. Yeah, yeah. I'll have to show you a picture.

• 11:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. So I guess going back to that operation itself, though, we had gotten information about Sabaya wanting to move. He was getting, he was getting kind of pinned down, getting cornered. He needed, he needed to get kind of pulled out and trying to move to a different island. Through one of his contacts that ran a lot of his financing, we knew where that was, and he was going to be the one to go in the boat. So we, we kind of put some of our own, or the Filipino, I should say, mission force, a couple of their guys on that boat, along with some, some tracking strobes, and then we followed them in. So we had,

• 12:29Speaker 03

  you know, a couple of our ribs, a couple of the Filipino ribs as well. And then, like you had mentioned, we had the ISR flying overhead, kind of tracking behind. So we move up the coastline under darkness and then right as first light was kind of getting ready to come up, called them into the shore. So they went in, picked them up. And then as soon as that boat got far enough offshore, the, the two navs off, or navs out boats moved in to intercept, if you want to call it intercepting, with, with a lot of guns blazing. And it turned into a pretty interesting little firefight there that lasted not, not too long as they ran over the boat and splintered it into pieces pretty quickly.

• 13:10Jack Murphy?

  And the fate of Sabaya himself, he went into the water, didn't he?

• 13:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, so he went into the water and again, every person that was on that initial boat loves to claim credit for filing or for firing the fatal shots. They pulled out his glasses and again, pieces of the boats, but that was one of the bodies that was never pulled out. They did find a couple of other bodies, but but not his. It was it was never recovered.

• 13:39Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you're right. There are all kinds of war stories. People saying they got his 1911 and stuff. It's like, okay, yeah.

• 13:53Jack Murphy?

  What? So it was NavSOG, the Filipino SEALs, you know, that you were partnered with. They're also, the Filipino Marine Corps was pretty involved in that operation, too, I believe.

• 14:05Speaker 03

  They had a lot of the support out there. We after we pulled them off, they did the recovery of all of the equipment. They also did the transfer of the people that were were pulled out all kind of went onto their boats. And then they kind of did a lot of the recovery of whatever was left of the situation and kind of an SSC, if you will.

• 14:24Jack Murphy?

  What was that sort of like for you guys in Zambu? I mean, prior to 9/11, being deployed to Guam of the Philippines was kind of like not exactly a hardship tour for a SEAL platoon, I imagine. But now you're in combat. I mean, this is real.

• 14:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, I mean, I guess you're still thinking, though, of like all of your other buddies that are in, you know, Afghanistan at the time, and they're getting after a little bit a little bit differently. It still is very real. You know, there's a lot of a lot of gunfire going on. There's you've obviously got the bodies all over that you're trying to help recovery or help recover. We talked about the The, uh, the mission with, um, with the Burnhams as well. So I think you do feel that you're very active. Before that, I think most of the people in the teams would have seen that deployment to like Sri Lanka, where you're doing some live FID as kind of like the, the higher end missions, you know?

• 15:21Speaker 03

  And you weren't really doing anything. You're just training, you're training the, the Sri Lankans and in getting them to go, train them on, you know, to go fight the Tamil Tigers. And this was completely different, you know, all of, I think when you talk to some of the older guys at that point, they, we had one person that had done, uh, Desert Storm and that was about it. There was very, very little experience. You know, and they talked about when they were new guys and they were young and their older guys that had all been like the Vietnam guys. So you're looking at the guys from like the early eighties that are now in there, you know, been in the teams for 20 plus years. And how they were in the early eighties with the Vietnam vets, having all that experience and they've got nothing.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Uh, and so I think that that was just that transition period going from the, the early 2000s through, you know, mid, you know, 2008, 2010 and just that, that growth and wealth of experience and, and development and the, the teams and really the military in general.

• 16:20Jack Murphy?

  Uh, did you, uh, you did Sri Lanka too?

• 16:24Speaker 03

  I did not do Sri Lanka. The platoon that I joined, they had done Sri Lanka the previous deployment. So that was their big experience from, from their previous deployment was talking about Sri Lanka.

• 16:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. I was going to ask because that, this, again, before nine 11, Sri Lanka was like, uh, that was like a very kind of like closely held, uh, secret that we had special forces and SEALs over there training those guys.

• 16:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't really talked about a whole lot, uh, but it was, it was, at least it was some, some pretty decent action and, and a good, a good place to hone skills.

• 16:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  My, my, yeah. Uh.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  I was just gonna say my, my father-in-law, actually, he was a pharmacist and he spent a lot of time over in Sri Lanka for the army as a lieutenant colonel. He, he ended up getting to the, the point that he had been over in Sri Lanka so many times that he was like the person the locals trusted and the rest of the military wasn't even able to get in the locations unless he was there to help like coordinate and work with them because that's who they trusted was.

• 17:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. That's awesome.

• 17:41Jack Murphy?

  So then I, I mean, you go, I assume you're going back to the United States, getting, doing, going through another workup and this time you're getting ready for Iraq.

• 17:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. So now we're looking at Baghdad, 2004.

• 17:59Speaker 03

  Definitely an interesting time, you know, we spent three months just doing assaults there, working with the Polish Grom, which is a fun time. And then we

• 18:12Speaker 03

  got tasked with taking over the PSD mission. So we did three months, basically, you know, it was a protection detail for the Iraqi leadership. And then right towards the end, I also got to go do the assault on Anadja, the city of Anadja, which, which was an interesting time as well.

• 18:31Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, let's start off. I mean, what was it like working with the Polish Grom?

• 18:37Speaker 03

  The Polish Grom were a lot of fun to work with. They are, they're,

• 18:43Speaker 03

  yeah, they're, they're a great group. They're very well-trained, very professional, can be a little on the crazy side. But, you know, I mean, that's, that's their mission. They're, they're a national asset for those guys there for Poland. You know, they are one of those groups that can work with in the country and outside. So, you know, I mentioned that later I went back and did the assault of Anadja. I was the JTAC and communicator for the, for the Grom sniper group that I was with. So I was the only American and I was with the team of like about, I think we had about eight Grom with us. So after that, I've, I've got my,

• 19:21Speaker 03

  It's in one of these boxes here, but uh my honorary official Grom certification and my coin and all the other stuff. So I think I'm official Grom member number 28 or 27 uh back in 2004. So I don't know how many there are now, but at that point there'd only been, you know, less than 30.

• 19:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that's unreal. Um, it's interesting to read about the Polish and how like the CIA formed a very close partnership with them um after the wall came down and then the and then our militaries did too. I guess it's just a cultural thing that we have a lot in common with them.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, they I think just the attitude they had, everything just really aligns well with with the soft groups. You know, I guess most most soft elements that I've worked with throughout the years, be it the the SAS or SBS, the CANSOF with Canada, uh, you know, same with the Grom. It it's a always kind of a great working relationship. There's always a little bit of a, you know, like who's better. We gotta, you know, but it but it's healthy. It's in a good way. It's not there. There's always just a lot of support. You're always there to help cover each other, to support each other and to figure out, you know, like, hey, what can we do to help take care of you? You're you're there for a QRF or the other one, whatever it needs to be. You're always there to support.

• 20:47Jack Murphy?

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• 22:12Jack Murphy?

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• 26:42Speaker 00

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• 27:13Jack Murphy?

  Well, tell us about the Najaf operation then.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, so in Onajaf, that had been,

• 27:25Speaker 03

  basically it was kind of a big holdout spot, right? For a lot of, a lot of terrorists and the Marines actually led that offensive. Basically had the whole city of Onajaf surrounded going in and

• 27:42Speaker 03

  they, it was a, it was a pretty good dogfight for, for multiple days. For actually it was a little where I think, we were there for about two weeks. It was a little bit longer than that total.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  And that was one of those spots where initially at least ROI or the, yeah, rules of engagements, the ROEs were, were literally given to us of like, there is nobody good in the city. If you see anybody moving, you can shoot them.

• 28:08Jack Murphy?

  Holy shit.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  It was like that was that's what you were given and then sometimes you would find some people that you're like that is definitely not that to look at kid or whatever and you've got to you've got to you know hopefully have that that moral decision making ability to not engage uh but the ROES were clear like if there is anybody there we have told them over and over again it this is now an open city like anybody moving is free game.

• 28:34Jack Murphy?

  And how did that kind of operation unfold?

• 28:39Speaker 03

  Uh we we just slowly slowly slowly started moving you know into this into the center of the city I think uh you know I'm glad that I wasn't on the other side where they had the uh the cemeteries because they had a lot of a lot of movement and as the Marines were moving through and trying to clear out the cemetery they had just dug in a lot of tunnels and they were just moving popping up behind uh popping up behind you know anything they could find and that was a tough movement on our side it was just straight urban warfare we got stuck in a couple of big buildings they got pinned down a few different times uh there's a

• 29:18Speaker 03

  first time that I think uh at least for me where you know we we're just completely pinned down in a building there's nowhere that we were going uh you gotta low crawl up to the front to you know engage a couple of people and then you're just you're just doing urban movement doing whatever you can to to break contact and get out of there because you know at at that point I had a small group of Grom I had two army SF guys with me doing this movement piece and we were just stuck and there was there was nowhere nowhere else that you're going so uh real quickly you you you learn that okay we gotta count on count on your ability and your training

• 29:57Speaker 03

  move fast

• 29:59Speaker 03

  don't don't stop.

• 30:00Jack Murphy?

  So yeah how'd you fight your way out?

• 30:03Speaker 03

  You know, that's basically what we did. We figured out where they are. We put in a two-person blocking, you know, some sort of a blocking team like, okay, I need you doing, you know, I need you to engage this building and this building because even at that point at a couple hundred meters, you're like, I think they're in that window, but they could be in that window. And either way, they were moving in on our position. So we couldn't stay, you know, at that point, it was like, we got to move or we're going to be done. So we put a couple of blocking positions in, moved down about a block down is where we had to get to. So just did kind of a rolling.

• 30:38Jack Murphy?

  Like break contact?

• 30:40Speaker 03

  Basically a rolling break contact drill, just like you would in any sort of your workup cycle. And more or less just moving down an alley or a street because there's nowhere else to go. We thought we'd be able to get out the back, but it was a solid. There's no, no exit through that, through that, that direction. So we had to move down the, down the front of the street, right into an open courtyard, which was, was not very fun for about 50 meters to get to an alley that then we could escape back towards, towards friendly forces.

• 31:13Jack Murphy?

  And what was kind of the result of that battle? Was it the, the Marines end up clearing the city, basically?

• 31:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. So they finally called a truce fire, a ceasefire and they, and more or less surrendered and gave up the city. So that kind of ended it at that point.

• 31:31Speaker 03

  But it took, yeah, they, it was, it was a big holdout spot for, for a while.

• 31:36Jack Murphy?

  And you rotated back to Iraq in 2007?

• 31:41Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. So back to Iraq in 2007 over in Haditha. Again, it was a lot, a lot quieter at that point.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  But it was still, it was still a good, a good tours. We had a lot of good mobility, a lot longer trips heading out towards the Syrian border and doing some clearance operations out there. So.

• 32:04Speaker 03

  I think it really, at that point, you're starting to see a lot of the SOPs that had been built over the previous, you know, five or six years really starting to take place, really starting to take hold. So you've got at that point, you know, all of your mobility training and all of the things that had been like, we're just figuring it out in oh four. By the time you get back to oh seven, a lot of these things are really ironed out. So that was one thing you definitely noticed, but Western Iraq out there, at least for the most part, was a lot quieter than I think than what we were expecting.

• 32:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, I, I can see that. Um, it's like a lot of like tribal areas and small villages out that way. Uh, it, were you guys by this time, was it mostly like doing HVT strikes or was it already sort of like working with a partner force and kind of trying to get them out there?

• 32:52Speaker 03

  You're pushing, you're, we are building at this point, we are building like our local SWAT force, SWAT team, kind of a local militia or military. And then we would use them to kind of try to partner and then, um, as there would be like a larger operation that they would want to go do a clearance off, a lot of times it would be with a conventional unit that we would team up with, uh, and they would maybe have a larger movement and we would kind of have a small piece within kind of a, a larger operation that they had planned.

• 33:23Jack Murphy?

  And, and as far as like, uh, how the, the SEAL platoons had evolved over time, um, we're, I, I mean, as I recall, what is a SEAL team, like something like 16 guys? But you started deploying like two platoons together as one kind of action element?

• 33:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. So initially we had 16 guys. It was two, two squads of eight, basically a mirror image of, of each other. Slowly over the years, by the time we get up a, a few years later after this even, a lot of times you're looking at 24 people, 25 people. There was just too much going on for one 60 man platoon to manage. Uh, and then they made the task element like you're saying. So the task element kind of has shifted a couple of times. It was two platoons, then it was three platoons and it's two platoons again. Uh, they still have an, I don't think as of last year, it was supposed to go back to two platoons, I think total, but

• 34:19Speaker 03

  it, you know, it's really kind of like a, a, an AOB or an AOB light type of a, a group led by an oh four, you know, element. So when, when we were there in 2007, actually basically our.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Platoon or our troop commander at that point as an O4, I think he probably had the size of what previous to that would have been an entire SEAL team that he was in charge of. So we had four platoons, I think he had three ODAs and he had another, not a MARSAQ team, but he did have another like civil affairs or something else that he was responsible for. So it was a, it was a pretty big size element for an O4 and out of all Assad.

• 34:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the machine's getting rolling there. Um, and let's see, you're going back home. I mean, I guess before we jump over to Afghanistan, um, do you have anything else you want to mention about how you saw the SEAL teams kind of evolve through the war on terror and some of the things that changed as you got deeper into the conflict?

• 35:19Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know if the timing was just, if it just aligned correctly or what, but you know, prior to really 2002, we did what was called, uh, we did a force optimization thing at that point where before that it was each team would deploy two SEAL teams at a time. So you had, and that was only with six SEAL teams. So you had six, six platoons deploying at a time from the west coast, six platoons from the east coast. Uh, and that was, that was it. And, and right at that time with force optimization, uh, they wanted to have an O5 headquarters along with kind of the, the troop headquarters

• 36:01Speaker 03

  be able to deploy to represent the team. And that just happened to align, you know, well with the beginning of the war. So you saw you going from two platoons, you know, with two O3s running the platoons to all of a sudden you'd be deployed and you'd have an actual O5 headquarters, an O4 headquarters. And I think that that ability to manage the teams also led to a lot more of the advanced, uh, intelligence and the intelligence package, the development of the SRTs or the sensor activity teams initially. Uh, and it really. Allowed at least from the NSW side for the the teams in the community to to grow and to

• 36:41Speaker 03

  become kind of a much more affordable uh yeah kind of piece of the battlefield as you you've got that entire operating engine, the the intelligence engine, the operators, you can fully develop a target package instead of waiting for some other sort of siege sort of agency, whoever it is, whoever it was to just bring you that target package.

• 37:06Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, the intelligence capabilities exploded and also, I mean, the the equipment and the gear and and quite frankly, the amount of money I think that was coming to these units was also um pretty amazing. I remember talking to a a guy, he was a SEAL during the 1970s and he's like, all we had back then was a snorkel, flippers and a K-bar knife and your UDT shorts and that was about it.

• 37:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. If you look at even early, the 2004 deployment when we were there and you're driving around Baghdad, you know, and you had, you know, around Michigan, around Irish, whatever, and everything that was going on there, we were driving around in thin-skinned Humvees with no doors and you had, you know, you had just machine guns everywhere. You'd have a 50-cal or or something up top and then you'd have both of the back seats had some sort of a saw, the back of the Humvee had two more uh saws. So you're just driving around, you look like a porcupine with guns just everywhere, running rails on the sides that as you're rolling up to the target, guys are like jumping off and and instantly either entering the target or getting ready to enter a target. And then

• 38:12Speaker 03

  you look even just to 2007, just with all of the IEDs and the development that way, now you're in, you know, armored vehicles and Humvees and then soon after that, you've got your Mabes or your strikers or whatever else you're driving around on. So I think as you talk about the technology, it's also the the safety and security is it changed a lot, you know, after just the four or five years of kind of continual combat.

• 38:36Jack Murphy?

  Uh, and then you get over to Afghanistan in 2009. What was that first trip to Afghanistan like?

• 38:47Speaker 03

  Uh, you're, I mean, it's just different, right? You're, I've been used to Iraq and you're in especially Western Iraq, it's flat, there's nothing out there. And now I'm, I'm pretty far east, close to the, you know, Pakistan border, it's mountains everywhere, it's, you're at altitude, you know, you're, you land in initially in Ba'ath, whatever, but then get, get a, a ride out to our little FOB in one of the agency's helicopters, because that's all that was really going out there to provide any sort of support. And you just, you instantly, you're like, okay, this is a slightly different, slightly different battle, it's a different, different trip, you know, and a lot of those roads where we were, you, you can't take a lot of the same vehicles. We're in armored vehicles a lot, but it was now you're in Hiluxes, you're in other vehicles that, that can handle those

• 39:31Speaker 03

  roads. You know, when I was there, a couple of years later, we did have some MAPVs and, and and RGs, but also we managed to get one stuck pretty good one time. And, you know, that is never a good position to be in. So I think the smaller vehicles and the, the ability to just kind of adapt to the area is something that you have to learn very quickly.

• 39:54Jack Murphy?

  What area, what was the area of operations you were in and, and kind of what was the mission at that time?

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, we were, so we had a, a partner force that we were working with and training with. And, and again, I was out in, so I was out in Kheif, uh, so pretty, pretty far over and, and I was working with some other partner force groups. So it was, it was a, it was a, a good trip that I was kind of attached to another group, uh, some guys that I actually knew, but it was a, an awesome experience and opportunity for sure.

• 40:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Uh, any memorable experiences from that deployment?

• 40:31Speaker 03

  I mean, there's a, I guess you've got a couple. I remember, you know, we went and did another like multi-day, uh, kind of an SR deal. And again, now you're starting to get really close to the border, but expecting, because of the partner force that we were with and where we were expecting that to get, um, a lot hotter than this. But then we left and almost right away, they started receiving a lot of, a lot of mortar fire and a lot of, uh, a lot of contact. So I don't know if they were waiting for us to depart the area or if it was, uh, just, you know, dumb luck on, on their part. And then, you know, we left in, I think, step

• 41:11Speaker 03

  Timber or so and then, you know, that FOB got hit by an IED. In December, I think it was just a couple of months after we left and one of the partner groups that we had worked with, yeah, they had a good portion of that group was was killed. The American, you know, the, the, a team of, uh, agency guys that we were working with.

• 41:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, it's pretty tragic. Um, is there, I mean, I know you weren't, you probably had very little oversight, if any, on the kind of intel stuff they were doing. But, um, you have any thoughts about why that incident happened? Um, what went wrong that day? I know you weren't there at the time, but.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  I was not there at the time. I know quite a few people that worked

• 42:00Speaker 03

  on that, like, operation of what was going on. And I think that, uh, the high risk

• 42:08Speaker 03

  meet significantly changed after that in the protocol for how you that individuals coming onto a camp. So I think that there was a lot of desire to get the intel that this person they thought had then, and because there was so much of, of that, just like, no, we need this intel, they let, uh, security down a little bit. And I think that that's the reason why you had a lot of change in protocols later. It really forced you to kind of double down on like, okay, what is the process? How are we going to make sure that this is correct? Or that this person is safe? Or that this is not going to be some sort of an ambush that we're walking ourselves into?

• 42:49Jack Murphy?

  Just to remind our listeners out there, 2009, we had basically no intel on where bin Laden was. I mean, we kind of had nothing. So that leads, I think, into the, um, I don't know if I want to say desperation, but there's a high level of motivation to gather up any intel that we could on, on where his location was, or to get someone inside his organization.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, and they thought they thought this doctor had access to some of that information. And so they kind of dropped their guard a little bit.

• 43:23Jack Murphy?

  So the next time that you went to Afghanistan, it was 2014.

• 43:28Jack Murphy?

  Now, actually, Bin Laden has been killed. Is it a different war the second time you go over there?

• 43:35Speaker 03

  It was different. The first time also while we were there was when, what is his name, walked off or walked off the FOB. And so there was a, yeah, Virgo. So there was a huge, that was another piece of intel that, you know, people were searching for. It was you could, you know, anything that you could do to get a piece of information for, for his location was also a huge requirement that everybody was just looking for. Go fast forward, like you said, a couple of years, and it, and it very much was like a different little, different war, I guess. I think that at that point, I really started to notice, I mean, they are very much a tribal nation, right? That is what they care about is their people, their group. They didn't really care about anything else.

• 44:20Speaker 03

  They wanted to, you know, we, I think we may have discussed this before, but you know, we're in the middle of a, it was about a 12, 14 hour firefight. And

• 44:33Speaker 03

  you know, 200 meters to the direction would that have been, I guess, to the north of where the enemy force was, is a guy out there with his, with his donkey clearing his field because he's got to eat. Like the fact that we're in the middle of a firefight doesn't get his fields done.

• 44:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 03

  Uh, so we're calling in A10s and you've got Apaches and F15s and all these things. And he's just not there plowing his field back and forth for three or four hours while we're, we're just getting after it.

• 44:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I've heard stories like that before, the guy coming out and like hoeing the field. You know, some 80 year old Afghan guy because, yeah, his life doesn't stop just because there's a war.

• 45:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's still got to feed his family. So you started seeing and you started seeing the insurgency different because you would you would see this very much seasonal, you know, like, okay, it's very much downtime. And then it's like, oh, it's wartime and you'd start seeing the flood of people, the flood of insurgents kind of coming through. You know, we were right at the southern tip of the Tangi Valley. This wasn't too long after extortion. A extortion helicopter went down just a couple of miles north of where we were. And so I think that it was just kind of a, for us, it was a very pivotal location because of that, you know, and we did have a couple of really great joint ops.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  So we got to do with with both our other platoon and then with an O D A that had been up a little bit north as well. They came down because their previous, I think it was their previous cycle, they had lost one of their guys in a fight right that terminal area. So they wanted to come down and and work with us and kind of make sure that, you know, let's let's clear this area up. It was personal for them as well. So.

• 46:14Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, well, you're right. A lot going on in that one A O at that one time. And any memorable experiences from that one you'd like to share before? It sounds like there's a few.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, those are they're all. I mean, you you have some just some really tough, some really tough times, you know, we we had helped build up a new FOB for a new like a police forward police station and and had the police come over and and had talked to them about, you know, hey, we just put this here. Make sure you have security. We need to make sure this is maintained. We can't just put this up and run. They decided they were going to have a huge party instead. They left like four people there, got completely overrun. All four of those guys were killed. And we said to watch them, I started to watch the whole thing happen. And, you know, that's a tough thing to do. You just put in all that time and effort, you know, in a in a fight on our own, but to make sure that that

• 47:09Speaker 03

  spot could be set up and then maintained, hopefully. And instead of leaving the force that we knew they were going to need, they just they kind of left it and let it get let it get overrun. It's never, you know, the stories of of sitting there watching the partner force just get annihilated. Like, those always, those are always tough, you know, tough events to to think back on.

• 47:39Jack Murphy?

  And speaking of which, so 2018, 2019, you're starting to look at Iraq again, right? As the ISIS war is picking up.

• 47:50Speaker 03

  Well, so 2016, we're back in Iraq.

• 47:52Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 47:53Speaker 03

  Initially, so we're in Iraq in, in up, up north, a little bit north of Mosul. And we're setting the stage for basically the, uh, the, the clearance operation for Mosul. Yeah. So, and that's where, that's where the Battle of Telesa happened. And that's where, uh, that's where we lost Chuck.

• 48:11Jack Murphy?

  Charlie Keating, uh, can you tell us about that operation and how things unfolded as it was ISIS was overrunning a Peshmerga position? If I recall right.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly. So we, uh, you know, my platoon, we deployed in 2016. We've got two different sectors up there between Sector 6, I think we're 6.1. And then my other platoon had Sector 7, which is going out towards the west. It's just a huge line, you know, at that point, you've got truly a slot. It's like a berm basically that the Peshmerga are managing. And on the other side of it was all, was all ISIS. So Charlie and my platoon, I see, were over at Mosul Dam. And then I stayed over by the hook with my, um, AIC. And we had been checking the border, trying to figure out what was going on since we'd gotten there.

• 49:07Speaker 03

  We got there like late February, by March 3rd. The other platoon, Charlie's platoon, or their, we're all the same platoon, I guess, but his squad. They were actually doing recon and there was a huge assault on the Mosul Dam then that they had repelled. Uh, and it, that ended up being a pretty, pretty crazy fight as well. And they had multiple VBIDs driving almost right up on their position. If they had known that they were actually a group of Americans, they probably would have all been dead because they drove by within about 100 meters of them. They tried law rockets, whatever, and they just like bounced off these armored trucks that they built, you know, the Mad Max trucks that ISIS would put together.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  They finally got some cast in there, took care of the IDs. We showed up to assist after, of course, everything's done and then it's too late as you're trying to do, you know, show up as QRF. But anyway, that was March 3rd. So then, fast forward a couple of months later, we'd been doing our own recon, you know, meeting with all of our partner forces and kind of figured out this weak spot that we thought was going to be the weakest spot on the line. They just didn't have the funding, didn't have the support. Both of the other sides where their guys, where Charlie and his guys were more of like Jerome Brozani's forces. In front of us was another general who was part of like the Feshmerg, uh, parliament, kind of another, you know, higher ranking official. He had a lot of his own funding.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  And then you've got Teleskoff and it was kind of a, uh, just kind of an open area. You had forces, but you know, they didn't have a lot of food. They didn't have a lot of supplies. They didn't have any tanks. They didn't have any like armored vehicles or not, not many at least. And so we had kind of felt that that was probably the weakest point and if something happened, that's where it was gonna, that was where it was gonna take place. Plus you've got a direct line road coming from the border through the, through the town there in Teleskoff and almost all the way to, uh, to the Bozal Dam. So not only was it a weak spot, but it was also a very pivotal spot that gave them direct access up to, straight up to the hook and then over to, or over to the Bozal Dam. Uh, so that morning, we started getting calls at about, about 2:00 AM saying like, hey, we're, the

• 51:16Speaker 03

  Flosk getting, um, attacked. Like, okay, let us know if it gets worse. So again, throughout the night, we keep getting calls. And by probably 4:00 AM, um, my, my ground force commander now, um, AOC from the Bultu, he wakes me up too. He's like, hey, this is, we gotta start getting ready. We're gonna figure this out. So him and I sit up for a while. We start figuring out what the plan is gonna be. And finally by, uh, By six at least, we're, we've got our whole group up now. We're heading out on the vehicles and we're going to that spot because we know that's going to be the weak spot. Uh, as we're driving into the town, my communicator is on, or my translator on, actually is on comms with their,

• 51:59Speaker 03

  um, partner, Terp, you know, from the, the general saying that nope, Telkot is still secure. We still have the town. They're in the south, but they're, you know, they breached the flop, but they're still south in the town. They don't have access to anything else. So I go, okay, well, we're going to go to the, the general's headquarters. We'll get up on the roof. We'll get some, some cast support. We'll figure out what's going on. And then as we start pulling into the village, we start taking small arms fire. So at that point, we're like, okay, what's going on? What's the deal? So stop the convoy a couple hundred meters before we get into the town is there's a, there's a two, PASH Humvees that are kind of blocking the road a little bit that we can use as a little bit of cover. So we pull over, we've got my one, uh, armored vehicle at the front and we're,

• 52:44Speaker 03

  on comms trying to figure out what the heck is actually going on because obviously the intel we had was not correct with the status of the city. Um, and almost immediately, um, the, the PASH people in the, the group in the two Humvees start driving away and our armored vehicle at the front takes, an RPG, uh, airbags are gone.

• 53:06Speaker 03

  We're not driving that vehicle anywhere. Then one of our F-150s started taking a bunch of bullets. So now we're basically, down two vehicles, not really going to be able to get out of there well. And the decision that I make is to, we're gonna, um, consolidate, we're gonna hard point in a, in a building complex, about 75 meters or so off to the side. So just like before, it's like, okay, let's, uh, let's set up some blocking positions. Let's lay down, lay down some fire. And let's get behind cover. We can't just sit here in this bowling alley. That definitely not going to end well for us. So, uh, that's what we do. We move over to the building and as we are entering the building and just getting there, then, then Charlie and his guys show up as a QRF.

• 53:48Speaker 03

  Uh, they, we had sent them over to go check out another area. They had already done that. Marzani's guys had, had confirmed that that area was clear. So they came to join us. So we all linked up as a platoon, actually almost a one and a half platoons because we had another group up visiting us and they were getting ready to go on another, another event and when this took place, but we'd been housing them for the night. So it just lucked out for us that we had an additional about 10 guys. So we're sitting there with about, we probably had about 30, about 30 people there. And we just hard point this, this

• 54:27Speaker 03

  building. We start getting a lot of, it ends up being a school, but from the school, it's, it's a north of the town, maybe 200 meters or so. We've got multiple VIVs coming up towards us, going off, you know, doors are flying directly over your head. We've got a small field in front of us and then a line of like three story buildings. So they've got altitude on us and they've got ammo. They've got basically everything, task police appear to where we are. So not really the best, again, position to be in, but I don't have anywhere else to go. And it's the best cover we can get. So we, we hard point there and just set up, you know, we're, we've got our javelins for some of the ID

• 55:10Speaker 03

  or some of the bigger vehicles, whatever we can do with that one, our automatic weapons and then our own sniper teams. And, and we're, we're just in a battle for multiple hours. We finally are getting our cast support. So we're starting to be able to engage with some cast. We weren't getting as many aircraft as we wanted. The flood of the vehicles and the flood of the, of the forces of ISIS from the south was still continuing pretty heavily. And so the headquarters decided that they were going to keep part of the forces themselves and they were engaging the vehicles as they were trying to move from further south in Iraq up, up across the plot. I don't, I don't know if that would have made a difference

• 55:55Speaker 03

  for, for Charlie or not, but we definitely had the building that we're pretty sure he was, he was, you know, shot from on our list. We're trying to get air support in order to. Take that building out. But before that was able to happen, I tasked him because we were getting a lot of very, very accurate, you know, sniper fire from kind of that area. He was our lead sniper and spent years as a sniper. It's like, had Charlie try to work on figuring out where that was and hopefully take care of that threat. While he was in the process of doing that up on the roof, he took took a single round right kind of by his clavicle upper, you know, collarbone. And that was that he basically rolled over and had had said, you know, he was hit and

• 56:41Speaker 03

  and then he was he was gone. You know, we continued to work on him for for as long as we could. We got him off the roof. Got in the medevac bird. They launched that almost immediately. Grid was the grid was passed incorrectly, not from us, but we passed the 10 digit grid. Medevac birds take an eight digit grid instead of taking off digits five and 10. They took off digits nine and 10, which completely changes the grid and they ended up directly on top of the town that all of the forces were coming from instead.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  They did make it up finally. After they finally got to us and we were able to get some smoke out to call them into the position. I took Charlie loaded them up on our one other armored vehicle and along with a basically a security detail and a medic. They they drove about five kilometers up the road further north to get away from the contact where we finally had the helicopter come in and land. And then they got out of there. And at that point, they when they got back, one of the helicopters, I think, never flew again. It was done. I think they had, I forget, 100 something bullets. It was it was pretty wrecked. Both of them had quite a few

• 57:57Speaker 03

  bullet holes in them. So those pilots were amazing. They did everything they possibly could. For sure, to to do what they could. They changed, I think, the the SOPs after that too, because they were supposed to be escorted by a couple of Apaches. The Apaches were slower than they were, so they just said, we're not waiting for you. And they took off after losing basically the two helicopters. They said, no, no, no, you guys go as a team. You need to keep your armored escort. You can't just take off on your own. So

• 58:26Speaker 03

  but after Charlie took or after Charlie was was medevaced out, we still had another couple of hours of the fight before we finally had.

• 58:35Speaker 03

  That they could take over the fight and we were able to to break contact and get out of there.

• 58:40Jack Murphy?

  I remember you telling me that, you know, after, oh, sorry, after losing Charlie, that it was a kind of a leadership challenge for you as the platoon chief to kind of like hold the, you know, you're the senior guy, you're the adult in the room and you got to hold this thing together because the deployment's not over. And obviously everyone's upset that, you know, their friend was just killed.

• 59:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that it really brings up that leadership issue that, you know, I'm not the only person. A lot of people have had to deal with it before.

• 59:13Speaker 03

  But it's not something that you can ever plan for and not something that you can ever train for. It's something that, you know, you have to just take care of at the time. But the guys are, you know, the guys want to get after it. The guys are, well, one, you're already all, everybody's, everybody's struggling from TBI after that with all the VBIDs and everything else. I think, I don't think there was a single person didn't have headache for at least three days after that. So we got everybody, well, supposedly you got, got everybody in the platoon baseline tested for TBI at a, at a repeal. Of course they lost all those records, so I don't know what happened to them, but we tried. So some people can see that there was something that was supposed to be inputted in the record from repeal, but you can't open it, the files were corrupted, unfortunately, so.

• 59:58Speaker 03

  But after that, you added to, you know, it's like, most guys want to get after it, they want to get revenge, they want to get whatever. So it's a matter of keeping guys focused, keeping guys busy, not letting them just kind of go crazy, continuing the mission and, and keeping them kind of tied in. So really started making a huge point of breaking down like, okay, here's today's operation. Here's what we're doing, here's why we're doing it. So that, that guys knew exactly what the job was that day. And it wasn't, like, you could see sometimes that it was maybe that the guys were Taliban or whatever and they just immediately wondered, sorry, I says, immediately want to get some sort of cast in and start blowing people up. But sometimes I need this talent to maintain its cap one classifications that we can continue to do.

• 1:00:45Speaker 03

  Strikes or whatever, but if it, I think it's cat one, cat two. But you've got to have a certain amount of footage of, you know, video footage and just recon on the town showing, hey, look, we were here for this long. This is all we've seen. There's only been ISIS. There's no other threat. So sometimes it's like, look, this is more important. We have to continue the mission. We, we have to do the job that we're tasked to do. We can't just go do, like, follow these guys and go do something else because that's what you want to do to, to, you know, get revenge. And, and it worked very well, making sure that guys knew, okay, this is exactly what we're doing this today. And it kept them from kind of straying on whatever other little tangent they wanted to go do.

• 1:01:27Speaker 03

  But it also, by getting into a good kind of rhythm, it kept guys focused and not just getting kind of, I guess, antsy or, it was like, okay, we took a few down days and I thought, okay, now it's time to get back after it again. And you go to an op, you take a down day or whatever, just go do an op, take a down day and just stay busy, stay busy, but also focused.

• 1:01:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I think like one of the interesting key points you make there is like the issuing of precise instructions to your subordinates. That they know exactly what they're doing, why they're doing it, as you mentioned. But sometimes the worst thing that can happen in combat, it's not a bad decision. It's confusing, confusing instructions or no decision being made, which is often a lot worse.

• 1:02:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, clearing concise decisions or clearing concise instructions are huge. It's also not the time to, to start questioning authority and questioning instructions. You know, I had a boss both in Afghanistan and then a different one there. And we spent a lot of time discussing like leadership and what does it take and the, the timing that it takes to get to know your people. Truly understanding, you know, their strengths and their weaknesses and when they're having a down day or an off day and what does that look like? But that also turned into, I think, a lot of times like earlier in a workup cycle, earlier in a, in a, in a training piece, like answering some of the questions, answering like, hey, why are we doing this or why do you want me to do that or what are we doing?

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  So that then when we were in combat, I didn't ask questions. Then it was like, now it's just time to, to listen and move.

• 1:02:58Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:02:59Speaker 03

  Because you already had to build, you built that confidence earlier. You, you know, just because you've got eight years or 10 years or you've got the rank or you've got whatever, it doesn't mean that you're going to always be right. So you've got to at least teach though that. You know, they should need to be following and it just it it takes time to build that that trust and that confidence. You know, they're they're putting their trust in me as a leader that I'm going to make the right decision and I'm going to keep them safe or, you know, at least to the best of my ability. So I'm going to show that that that trust is is worth them, you know, putting in me.

• 1:03:36Jack Murphy?

  The other thing I wanted to ask you about is from, you know, 2000 or you joined the Navy in 99. Now we're getting into 2018, 2019, 2016, we just talked about, but even the subsequent years. How you're starting to see the battlefield change and how drones are starting to become a a normal, regular facet of tactical level operations?

• 1:04:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that even is from our side, right? Because early you didn't have a lot. Now we're running with like be it a Raven or whatever. We've got our own smaller drones, not just the the Preds and the Reapers and a lot of the other tactical Scan Eagles, but even the smaller ones, you know, and after the 2016 deployment, I started moving more into the intelligence side of what Naval Special Warfare offers and worked a lot with both, you know, our civilian teams and our our intelligence and teams. And you really learn to leverage on our side, those ISR platforms and how important they can be. But at the same time, that's right when we started having ISs flying over with small drones and they

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  learned how to just fly them over and drop grenades. You know, you look at the how that has shifted from 2016 to today is you've got FPV drones and you've got, I mean, it's very, very impressive what they can do with a lot of these drones today, taking out tanks, taking out any, almost any armored vehicle. They they are so small and precise with these FPVs, they can fly them to the smallest creases. And back then, they couldn't do anything. And if they were just going to drop a grenade on a tank with reactive armor, a Bradley, anything like that, it wasn't going to do anything. Now you look at all of the tanks that we've sent over to Ukraine today, and they don't move any of them. They can't. They are the the army operating concept of using, you know, mechanized infantry and and these

• 1:05:31Speaker 03

  armored. Abrams and Bradley's is just not functional. And so that's a huge shift. I think that the army is figuring out now like, okay, we need to figure out the a bigger and better counter UAS policy and capability to defend our armored vehicles.

• 1:05:52Jack Murphy?

  What are you allowed to tell us about the tail end of your Navy career as you kind of dealt into the intel side?

• 1:06:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, we get to, I mean, a little bit. I think I did a lot more work. So from 2018 all the way until I retired in 2025, was just a lot more with the the sensitive activities, a lot of work with the creation of like the ramp at SOCOM and a lot of work with them when I was at the Warcom Naval Special Warfare Command. And then a lot of Beltway tours. So we, you know, you work with with all of the the partners that you you probably think of over in the Beltway, the three letters and a lot of numbers as well. But you end up with close relationships with with a lot of these groups. And you start really understanding what does the targeting cycle look like? What is the like, what goes into

• 1:06:44Speaker 03

  developing some of these these target packages and everything else that as a platoon, as an operator, you don't necessarily see, you're just seeing the end. You don't see the, you know, week, week, week of 20 hour days that these intel analysts are putting in, sitting behind their computers and building out what their targeting network looks like and understanding how to task assets and what does that look like? And, you know, when you're building pattern life or you're building building out a network, be it a physical network or a, you know, a cellular network or whatever it might be. You you don't see the work that goes into into that. So I really appreciated all that time and and

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  helping me develop kind of that whole cycle, understanding of like lucky going from going from just being a door kicker, which was a lot of fun, but then to really managing and running an entire intelligence platform is just, I don't know, I really enjoyed it. It was a great way to kind of finish off, I think, the my career and and maintain a lot of

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  I guess, just feel that you're very relevant, you know, like the rest of the platoons, like that's essential, like they can't do what they're, what we need them to do with, without what you're doing as well.

• 1:08:06Jack Murphy?

  You, people get upset with me sometimes when I say this, but I, I do think it's true that the operators, a lot of times really just don't understand everything that goes into the operations that they're sent on, you know, on the backend.

• 1:08:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I agree 100%. And it's, it's fascinating. I think the capabilities that we have as a nation and, and what goes into, you know, like, quite honestly, one of the more interesting places to ever visit, you know, if you can go to the FBI headquarters or CIA headquarters or whatever, but go to NSA headquarters and like, this is a very interesting place. It's full of some, full of some, uh, very, very bright, uh, not always, not always the best communicators, though, uh, in that, in that building.

• 1:08:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they, they have a hard time making eye contact and shaking hands.

• 1:09:03Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly. They, uh, they always have a great joke of, of, you know, the, the outgoing ones are the ones that look at your shoes instead of their own shoes as they're talking to you.

• 1:09:16Jack Murphy?

  Uh, you know, I was gonna ask, like, was that hard for you as a frogman going from that sort of very like more kinetic environment to going to this intel, inter-agency, deconfliction, coordination sort of role? Um, it sounds like it was a real eye opener for you and you really enjoyed it. But I mean, was that a tough transition for you to make initially?

• 1:09:37Speaker 03

  I think it was tough, kind of more on the deployment side when you're, you're there and, and everything we were doing was essential with my task group that I was, you know, kind of running because we ran that whole intelligence. But then you see the platoons and you see what they're doing and you definitely miss that piece at that time. I think you start seeing like, all right, you know, your days as being that operator are over. Uh, you know that it's coming. You know that you're getting older and, you know, the body is fragile and after. Close to 20 years in the teams, you just, I don't know, another, another work I had out at Nyland was probably just not in the carbs. You just start breaking down physically. So, you know, that is when you start looking at like, okay, well, where's the best spot that

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  I can go and still be a contributor. So as difficult as it is, it also, I think, was a way to maintain relevancy.

• 1:10:30Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, absolutely. And then you did the SOCOM Fellowship program at the tail end of your career. Can you tell people what that is?

• 1:10:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, so the SOCOM Fellowship with the Care Coalition, they basically, SOCOM will sponsor you with an outside company. They do a specific contract for every, every company they do. Go see your Care Coalition rep if it fits something you're interested in. And that is up to six months that you can do. So unlike Steelbridge where it's changed multiple times, last time, I think when I was retiring, it was four. I've heard it might be down to even three months. And it's got to be with a Steelbridge certified company. With the SOCOM Fellowship, you could go to any company at all. You write a separate contract or the Care Coalition will write a contract for you. And it gets routed up

• 1:11:24Speaker 03

  through SOCOM, signed by the, I think it's the Deputy Commander, one of the senior civilians at all of SOCOM, signs it from their side. And then the company representative signs it from their side. And then, once it was signed, basically, you're gone. I would check in. It wasn't a requirement, but I'd call back to Warcom, as that's where I was at the time, about once a month, just to check in. And then every month on the first, I would get a survey of like, how is this going? What are you learning? What are you getting opportunities? And so you just fill out this survey of like about 10 questions and break out like, here's the things I've done, here's who I'm talking to, or how I'm growing, I guess, what you're learning. And then, at the end of it, they just ask you to kind

• 1:12:09Speaker 03

  of do basically the same thing, write another survey about how great it was, or what your opinion on it. And it was just, it really gave me the opportunity to.

• 1:12:23Speaker 03

  Uh, network. You know, I started networking through the Anna Foundation. I did the Anna Foundation and you start talking to people. You start kind of growing a little bit there. You start figuring out what a resume looks like, what you might be interested in doing. How do you translate your military resume into civilian speak? Uh, and in that process, I had run into an old friend of mine that we had done a couple of platoons before. He had a company that was like, hey, if you want to do this, like I will totally like sign up for it. And he would allow me to, to join, to join this company. They did some investment stuff with a, it was a nonprofit, um, a nonprofit VC company, basically. But it allowed me to just start networking. That's what he wanted. He's like, come in, I need you to help me with this.

• 1:13:08Speaker 03

  And then I want you to just start talking to companies. Uh, and in the process of talking to all these other companies, I met Michael and, uh, my current CEO. And I started helping them a little bit as well with a few things. And he offered me a, a position in about, I think it was in November when I was retiring in the end of January.

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• 1:16:02Speaker 03

  And I thought, well, this is awesome. I don't have to worry about finding a good job, but I still got three months. So that was a huge, a huge relief, actually, of like not, there was just no pressure at that point. I could really focus on just transitioning out of the, out of the military.

• 1:16:16Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the SOCOM Fellowship and the stuff, the Honor Foundation, sounds like it's great as far as, you know, a lot of the problems that we've had with, you know, special ops guys retiring and having a pretty rocky transition, which I think it's a little, gonna be rocky no matter what. But it sounds like those programs really help guys, you know, land on their feet and have a good transition out of the service.

• 1:16:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know some people that have done the SOTF and a few of the other programs, and I think they're all great programs. I don't know that one is necessarily better than the other. I very much enjoyed the the honor foundation, the time that that I spent there. It was a lot of work. It's definitely time consuming. It's not an easy thing to, you know, you're dedicating a lot to go through that process, but I think it's worth it.

• 1:17:07Jack Murphy?

  And so you found a pretty good landing, it sounds like, at Aurelius Systems. Tell us about that company and what you guys do there.

• 1:17:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we build direct energy weapons. We build basically laser guns. So laser guns, small laser guns to take out group one, group two drones. So we use, everything's built, software wise, everything's built in-house. Hardware wise, we build all of the materials. We are looking at vertically integrating our laser, but currently we are buying laser and the cameras and like radar, we're not going to build those things ourselves. But the company is doing great. We are, we closed the seed round already. We're currently working through some, some series A stuff as we are just rapidly, rapidly growing and the demand

• 1:17:57Speaker 03

  signal from the government is, is huge of like, we need the system now. You do have some other, some other good systems out there. You've got like the build blue halo air environment system, but it's just a lot bigger. We're looking at a significantly smaller, you know, at, at the biggest side would be the back of like a JLTV or, or a vehicle of some sort, you know, a few hundred pounds type of a deal that you could really move anywhere, runs off a battery, you're going to get, you know, a pretty significant amount of shots off of a battery. You're looking at, you know,

• 1:18:34Speaker 03

  The smaller size, the group one, group twos, that final line kind of a defense though. So if you, if you're looking at a big FOB and you've got the 10 or 20 million dollar blue halo system, that's awesome. I think it's a, it's a, it's a great, very capable system. But when you start having some of these larger swarms, or if you're forward and you can't move a system that big, that's where the system we're building kind of comes in.

• 1:19:01Jack Murphy?

  So just to translate that for folks out there listening, when you say group one, group two drones, you're talking about the smaller drones that are like 10 feet to 500 feet off the ground?

• 1:19:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. So you're looking at group one drones are basically like zero pounds, like DJIs are normal ones that you're flying around town, um, up to group twos. So think of it in probably really 20 to like even up to like 40 pounds. I think 55 pounds is technically the cutoff from group two to group three. But you're looking at the, the smaller drones, the FPV drones, the really the small group one drones that we're talking about, just like your, your 10 pounds or less drones that people have at home. That is the number one cause of casualties in Ukraine. That is like over 80% of casualties are caused by these drones. They're the ones with FPV that, that they can take into these creases and they can, and you know, like the crease in the tank and the turret and they can destroy the tanks. They're the ones that are targeting, uh, with explosives. Basically you're putting

• 1:19:56Speaker 03

  a shape charge on this and you're turning it into an airborne IED, you know, with a shape charge. That's basically what it is.

• 1:20:05Jack Murphy?

  And I know that counter UAS or counter drone stuff is, as you said, there's a huge demand right now. This is like something the entire military, I think, is thinking about and trying to find systems to protect our troop formations, forward operating bases, uh, um, forward medical facilities, all of that sort of stuff, um, needs to be protected. And how would it, you know, this system that you're working on at Aurelius, how, how would it actually do that?

• 1:20:34Speaker 03

  Well, so I'm trying to think how to explain, you know, Mike Michael's great at some of these explanation stuff. I love the operation side, but really so everything that we built, right? We've got EOR, but you've also got the radar that we can integrate with. You can integrate with ATAC, you can integrate with any of these things for typically queuing system, locate whatever these drones are. And then with the with the laser, you're really just, you can do a couple of different things as we train our language model on how to target. You can look at propellers, you can look at the body, you can look at the battery, you can, so you're basically training your model on like, what are the weakest spots of these different types of drones. And then the system itself then is an autonomous system, ideally is going

• 1:21:18Speaker 03

  to target that that weakest point of the drone. And if that's the case, then they get, they drop pretty quickly.

• 1:21:27Jack Murphy?

  So I mean, it has some sort of radar and algorithm is processing the data that's coming into the system. And then it's going to like rapid fire these laser beams at the drone.

• 1:21:38Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly. If you've got a swarm coming in, you know, that's exactly what you're doing. You're looking at whatever you can to help you with your queuing. We have done a lot of integration and work with Equida specifically, but we could integrate with whatever radar to give us an additional like queuing from outside of what we're getting with our internal EOR cameras. Or we could just run passive off of our own camera systems and stuff. You know, as a as a soft person, the last thing you want is to be required to have some sort of a radar or something that's active, something forward. You know, that's just an electronic signature that you want to not be forced to use if you don't have to. You know, most people know at this point that if you have even like a Harris

• 1:22:22Speaker 03

  with Alice radio, if you have anything radar that is going active, if you're over in Ukraine and as soon as you turn that on, that signal is getting picked up immediately and you're going to have some incoming rounds.

• 1:22:35Speaker 03

  Within minutes, you know, so if you can maintain just kind of a passive attitude and you don't have to go active, great, you know, then then that's awesome. And you can you can set up out there in a in a forward fob or forward position and you can still use the system passively. But if you're on the southern border of the US, or if you're at an airport or a stadium or a large fob, you've got active radar all over the place, like get as much information as possible. We will intake that for our queuing, set it up so that you can you're ready if the swarm is coming in. And you can, exactly like you said, you just one after the other if you're prioritizing the incoming drones.

• 1:23:14Jack Murphy?

  Is the current thinking that at least during warfare, it's going to have to be autonomous, that a human being won't be able to select and target each of those drones fast enough, that a machine will have to do it?

• 1:23:29Speaker 03

  Well, so I think that I think that the consensus is it's a lot easier to build it autonomous, and then to add a human in the loop than it is to build it as a human in the loop, and then create it autonomous after the fact. But then also, to your point, a lot of these drones, the way that they are operating right now, if you look over in Ukraine, they're either they've got a spotter drone that's flying up fairly high, you know, they might be at a couple of kilometers even away. And they're just in a hover with a really good camera, and they're doing spotting, and they've got somebody sitting next to them after they identify the target. And so they're coming in very, very low, maybe behind a bridge line, you don't even see them. And by the time they hit the bridge line, or through the trees, or whatever it is, you've only got a few seconds.

• 1:24:13Speaker 03

  It's just not enough time. I think that from at least the staff, even with Department of War, now that I've spoken with, there's a pretty open recognition that the long term plan is going to have to be, at least in some locations, you have to be able to run autonomous, or you're not going to be able to you're not going to be able to make it. There's going to be more sensitive areas where that's probably not going to be the case, and you're going to want to be able to keep that human in the loop to make that final decision, even if they're tracking and everything else is all done autonomous, the actually firing of the laser itself, that can still maintain human in the loop.

• 1:24:51Jack Murphy?

  Anything else about what Aurelius is doing that you want to talk about or anything else about this system?

• 1:24:59Speaker 03

  We've got some great testing opportunities coming up and then, you know, we're looking at

• 1:25:06Speaker 03

  integrating our own, our own laser. I think that lead times on supply chain are, are a very difficult piece right now. And I think that's not just for us across the board. So to really solidify that supply chain.

• 1:25:26Speaker 03

  The feeling is that we have to integrate that ourselves. We've got to vertically integrate the laser system. The, there's only a few companies in the U S and they're just, they're maxed out. But honestly, the, the few that you have, you're looking at four to six months and they're just running full speed all the time. And so it's hard to grow if that lead time is what you've got to wait for all the time. So I think that as we do that, you're going to continue to see.

• 1:25:57Speaker 03

  It's going to help us grow, I think, because we'll also be able to sell potentially those to, to outside markets. You know, right now we're trying to make everything is, everything is as cost as possible. We want it to be commercial off the shelf. That's how we keep costs down. You keep costs down by somebody mass producing these products. And that one is just one item. It's just, it's not happening right now across the board. So.

• 1:26:19Jack Murphy?

  The laser itself.

• 1:26:22Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 1:26:22Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can't exactly buy one of those at Walmart.

• 1:26:27Speaker 03

  No, but the funny thing is, I mean, the ones that we mostly use, right? They are, they're built for automotive industry for the most part. That's, that's kind of what they're built, they're built and expected to basically be on 20 hours a day, just sitting there, you know, welding, way cutting sheet metal for, for automotive. So they're, they're very robust. These, these are built to last for a long time. We know that you can use them for an extended period of time. What the team is doing is they're really, they're putting a lot more focus and effort on, on the software stack and on the targeting piece of it so that they can use them the lower grade laser, if you will, because as soon as you go from like these commercial lasers,

• 1:27:10Speaker 03

  we try to get some of these other more of a bespoke laser, it's like a 10x increase in cost and it's no longer an affordable system that you can put in a ton of different locations.

• 1:27:21Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha. Um, well, Joe, I appreciate you sharing all this with us. Um, is there anything else you want to discuss or anything you want to plug before we get going today?

• 1:27:33Speaker 03

  Uh, I, you know, I always think it's worth mentioning to everybody, the, the mental health piece and staying on top of your mental health, uh, you know, through,

• 1:27:46Speaker 03

  uh, let's see, where do you want to go with that? I know personally, I struggled a lot. I struggled for a long time, do a lot of therapy still, and it was hugely beneficial for me. Uh, you know, I had a lot of guys that, that I could tell were struggling and being able to share that story of like, look, it got to the point where my wife left. She was like, I'm done. You need to figure this out. And it took, you know, about eight months of really hardcore focus and therapy and meditation and a lot of work. Uh, and now we're great. You know, I've retired, we're, we're together and we're doing awesome, better than we probably ever have. Uh, but it's because I had to put in the focus and I had

• 1:28:31Speaker 03

  to put in the time and I still have to. It's not something that just ends. It's not just like, oh, I did therapy for two months and now I'm better. It's, it's a, an ongoing thing that people need to continue to be on top of. Um, and it's just very easily, you know, have any. Not only how many funerals have we been to from people we lost, but then how many funerals also we've been to from suicide after people have gotten back as they've gotten to that mental state. And my wife has been pretty open saying that if I hadn't shifted when I did, that she feels that would probably be another suicide statistic now. So I'm very grateful for all of the opportunities I've had to take care of myself and the therapy and the support, both from, from all the different foundations and groups that are out there.

• 1:29:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, it's great. Are there any particular that you'd, that you found helpful or that you like that you recommend to people?

• 1:29:24Speaker 03

  There are a couple.

• 1:29:30Speaker 03

  Shoot, now you just said that and I'm trying to think of the one that I go to in Boston that was absolutely huge. So the, the, the Boston Red Sox Foundation pays for it and sponsors the whole, the, the event. They've got two different, two different groups there. One is, is I think it's called Combat. It's a one week deal and it's really only for soft operators. But then they also have a two week that is a in-depth cognitive or a therapy session. It's kind of a group of like 10 people and you can do a soft one or you could do kind of a joint. But it's, it's still basically all military people that have, that have suffered, you know?

• 1:30:13Speaker 03

  And I ended up doing the joint one for that and, and I'm grateful that I did because I got to see some of the things that happened to the other, you know, just like maybe an army or whatever it is, just other individuals that they had gone through. And how similar to what we've gone through as well. It's just because you're in soft doesn't make the PTSD any different, you know? It's, it's, it's still what it is. I want to look it up real quick and figure out who am I think, why, why can I not think of a, why can I not think of the name?

• 1:30:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47Speaker 03

  But that that was probably the best one for me, a lot of support. And then afterwards, they follow up every, we did a follow up every month for a year. I think I just had my last call.

• 1:31:00Jack Murphy?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:31:00Speaker 03

  Cause I did that one last April.

• 1:31:05Speaker 03

  The combat one, but you know, I went over there and within the first day, you've got like two or three different MRIs, you've got x-rays, you've got full body scans and you're going to speech, you're going to a therapist, you're going to like just everything of like, okay, let's see what's going on with you physically and mentally and figure out and develop a plan. Going forward to, you know, make you whole, I guess, as best as possible.

• 1:31:32Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, go ahead and look it up and we can shout it out here.

• 1:31:37Speaker 03

  Homebase.

• 1:31:38Jack Murphy?

  Homebase, okay.

• 1:31:39Speaker 03

  Homebase is what that one's called. Yeah. And they were, they were fantastic. You can look them up on their website and, and apply and, and if that isn't working, then reach out to, to you and I can give you the details and definitely people can, can get in contact with them. But they were, they're phenomenal.

• 1:31:57Jack Murphy?

  We will put links down in the description for our viewers. And where can people find Aurelius Systems?

• 1:32:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. So AureliusSystems.com. And we are based out of San Francisco and we're going to be all over, you know, touring at Soft Week and at T-Rex and everything else. And if somebody wants to support, also the C4 Foundation, as we talked about Charlie a little bit, we are sponsoring a Memorial Day event on the USS Hornet in San Francisco. I can send you that link as well. We're looking for people to, to show up and do a little bit of workout and then have some drinks and some food. And Charlie's dad, C3 is going to be up there with me to, to speak a little bit. It's going to be a great event.

• 1:32:41Jack Murphy?

  All right. Yeah. I hope to see you at Soft Week then. I'll be down there for a couple of days.

• 1:32:46Speaker 03

  Okay. No, yeah, it sounds great. Look forward to it.

• 1:32:49Jack Murphy?

  And thank you for joining us. Thanks for coming on and sharing your experiences with us. And thank you everyone who watched the program tonight. So I guess we'll see you next time. And thank you, Joe.

• 1:33:02Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:33:07Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, I want to take a moment to tell you about the Team House Podcast Newsletter. If you go and subscribe, it's totally free and what it will do is aggregate all of our data, all of our content that we put out, the things that are on the Team House, on our geopolitics podcast, Eyes On, things that I write journalistically with Sean Naylor on the high side, anything else that we have going on, books we recommend, upcoming guests that we have coming on the show, and also filtering in some fun stuff in there as well. If you go and check it out, we send it out just once a week. We don't want to spam you guys. It's just a kind of roll up of all of our content on a weekly basis.

• 1:33:52Jack Murphy?

  You can find our newsletter at teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Again, the website for that is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join.

• 1:34:04Speaker 05

  So we Underdog already has team picks, player props, money lines, spreads, you name it, they got it. But apparently somebody over there said, you know what's missing? Screaming like a maniac about a rookie card on your couch. And we love them for that because Underdog now has rips. You get a digital pack starting at just five bucks. You check the live odds, see which grails you could pull, then rip it open to reveal a real physical card. And the grails are no joke. They have cards up to $125,000 in value and plenty to pull. From football and basketball to Pokemon with new limited edition packs dropping regularly. Even cooler, you can decide to keep the card and Underdog will ship it straight to your home or sell it back instantly at 100% of its fair market value.

• 1:34:48Speaker 05

  And the cash goes right in your account. No listing it online, no stranger low balling you in the messages. Just rip, reveal and cash out instantly or make some room on your shelf. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Get five free rips packs when you deposit $5. Real rips, real cards, real cash, only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18 plus terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare. Ready to feel more energized and in control of your health? If you've tried diet and exercise

• 1:35:18Speaker 00

  But still aren't seeing the results you're looking for, it may be time to explore a different approach. At OrderlyMeds.com, you can connect with licensed medical providers through a simple virtual process, all from the comfort of home, and find out if a GLP-1 treatment may be right for you. Learn more at OrderlyMeds.com. That's OrderlyMeds.com. Compounded medications are not FDA-approved. Eligibility determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at OnDeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:36:11Jack Murphy?

  Hope to see you there. The link will be down in the description.

• 1:36:16Speaker 05

  Underdog already has team picks, player props, money lines, spreads, you name it, they got it. But apparently, somebody over there said, "You know what's missing? Screaming like a maniac about a rookie card on your couch." And we love them for that. Because Underdog now has rips. You get a digital pack, starting at just five bucks. You check the live odds, see which grails you could pull, then rip it open to reveal a real, physical card. And the grails are no joke. They have cards up to $125,000 in value, and plenty to pull. From football and basketball to Pokémon, with new, limited-edition packs dropping regularly. Even cooler, you can decide to keep the card and Underdog will ship it straight to your home, or sell it back instantly at 100% of its fair market value.

• 1:37:00Speaker 05

  And the cash goes right in your account. No listing it online, no stranger lowballing you in the messages. Just rip, reveal, and cash out instantly. Or make some room on your shelf. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Get five free rips packs when you deposit $5. Real rips, real cards, real cash. Only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18+, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 1:37:25Speaker 00

  Ready to feel energized and in control again? At Orderly Med's, we have helped thousands just like you take charge of their health with a GLP-1. If you've tried dieting, exercising, and relying on willpower and nothing seems to stick, then it might be time to talk to a licensed provider about your options. That's what Orderly Med's is for. This fall, choose healthier habits for yourself with a visit to OrderlyMed's.com. You don't need to visit with a physician in person to become eligible. Orderly Med's has a simple virtual process. Connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine whether a GLP-1 treatment may be appropriate for you wherever you are. Getting started from the comfort of home, online. Change your habits and consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit OrderlyMed's.com to learn more.

• 1:38:09Speaker 00

  That's OrderlyMed's.com. OrderlyMed's.com. Gain confidence and choose better habits this fall. Compounded medications are not FDA-approved. Eligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at OnDeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:39:00Speaker 05

  Underdog already has team picks, player props, money lines, spreads. You name it, they got it. But apparently, somebody over there said, "You know what's missing? Screaming like a maniac about a rookie card on your couch." And we love them for that. Because Underdog now has rips. You get a digital pack, starting at just $5. You check the live odds, see which grails you could pull, then rip it open to reveal a real, physical card. And the grails are no joke. They have cards up to $125,000 in value, and plenty to pull. From football and basketball to Pokémon, with new, limited-edition packs dropping regularly. Even cooler, you can decide to keep the card and Underdog will ship it straight to your home. Or sell it back instantly at 100% of its fair market value.

• 1:39:44Speaker 05

  And the cash goes right in your account. No listing it online, no stranger lowballing you in the messages. Just rip, reveal, and cash out instantly. Or make some room on your shelf. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Get five free rips packs when you deposit $5. Real rips, real cards, real cash. Only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18+, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 1:40:09Speaker 00

  Ready to feel energized and in control again? At Orderly Med's, we have helped thousands just like you take charge of their health with a GLP-1. If you've tried dieting, exercising, and relying on willpower and nothing seems to stick, then it might be time to talk to a licensed provider about your options. That's what Orderly Med's is for. This fall, choose healthier habits for yourself with a visit to OrderlyMed's.com. You don't need to visit with a physician in person to become eligible. Orderly Med's has a simple virtual process. Connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine whether a GLP-1 treatment may be appropriate for you wherever you are. Getting started from the comfort of home, online. Change your habits and consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit OrderlyMed's.com to learn more.

• 1:40:53Speaker 00

  That's OrderlyMed's.com. OrderlyMed's.com. Gain confidence and choose better habits this fall. Compounded medications are not FDA-approved. Eligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:41:43Speaker 05

  Games on a break? Don't doom scroll. Try rips on Underdog. Buy a digital pack, rip it open, and reveal a real physical card. Football, basketball, even Pokemon. Packs start at just $5. Ship it straight to your door or sell it back instantly at full market value. Max value up to $125,000. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Deposit $5, get 5 free packs. Real rips, real cards, real cash. Only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18+, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 1:42:13Speaker 00

  Ready to feel more energized and in control of your health? If you've tried diet and exercise but still aren't seeing the results you're looking for, it may be time to explore a different approach. At OrderlyMedds.com, you can connect with licensed medical providers through a simple virtual process, all from the comfort of home, and find out if a GLP-1 treatment may be right for you. Learn more at OrderlyMedds.com. That's OrderlyMedds.com. Compounded medications are not FDA-approved. Eligibility determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:42:44Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses, like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans, up to $400,000, help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at OnDeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:43:20Speaker 05

  Games on a break? Don't doom scroll. Try rips on Underdog. Buy a digital pack, rip it open, and reveal a real physical card. Football, basketball, even Pokemon. Packs start at just $5. Ship it straight to your door or sell it back instantly at full market value. Max value up to $125,000. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Deposit $5, get 5 free packs. Real rips, real cards, real cash. Only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18+, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 1:43:51Speaker 00

  Ready to feel energized and in control again? At Orderly Med's, we have helped thousands just like you take charge of their health with a GLP-1. If you've tried dieting, exercising, and relying on willpower and nothing seems to stick, then it might be time to talk to a licensed provider about your options. That's what Orderly Med's is for. This fall, choose healthier habits for yourself with a visit to OrderlyMed's.com. You don't need to visit with a physician in person to become eligible. Orderly Med's has a simple virtual process. Connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine whether a GLP-1 treatment may be appropriate for you wherever you are. Getting started from the comfort of home, online. Change your habits and consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit OrderlyMed's.com to learn more.

• 1:44:35Speaker 00

  That's OrderlyMed's.com. OrderlyMed's.com. Gain confidence and choose better habits this fall. Compounded medications are not FDA-approved. Eligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:44:51Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses, like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at OnDeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:45:27Speaker 05

  Underdog already has team picks, player props, money lines, spreads, you name it, they got it. But apparently, somebody over there said, "You know what's missing? Screaming like a maniac about a rookie card on your couch." And we love them for that. Because Underdog now has rips. You get a digital pack, starting at just $5. You check the live odds, see which grails you could pull, then rip it open to reveal a real, physical card. And the grails are no joke. They have cards up to $125,000 in value, and plenty to pull. From football and basketball to Pokémon, with new Limited edition packs dropping regularly. Even cooler, you can decide to keep the card and Underdog will ship it straight to your home. Or sell it back instantly at 100% of its fair market value.

• 1:46:11Speaker 05

  And the cash goes right in your account. No listing it online, no stranger lowballing you in the messages. Just rip, reveal, and cash out instantly. Or make some room on your shelf. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Get five free rips packs when you deposit $5. Real rips, real cards, real cash. Only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18 plus, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 1:46:36Speaker 00

  Ready to feel energized and in control again? At Orderly Meds, we have helped thousands just like you take charge of their health with a GLP-1. If you've tried dieting, exercising, and relying on willpower and nothing seems to stick, then it might be time to talk to a licensed provider about your options. That's what Orderly Meds is for. This fall, choose healthier habits for yourself with a visit to OrderlyMeds.com. You don't need to visit with a physician in person to become eligible. Orderly Meds has a simple virtual process. Connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine whether a GLP-1 treatment may be appropriate for you wherever you are. Getting started from the comfort of home, online. Change your habits and consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit OrderlyMeds.com to learn more.

• 1:47:21Speaker 00

  That's OrderlyMeds.com. OrderlyMeds.com. Gain confidence and choose better habits this fall. Compounded medications are not FDA approved. Eligibility required and determined by licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:47:36Jack Murphy?

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at OnDeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:48:15Speaker 05

  Underdog already has team picks, player props, money lines, spreads. You name it, they got it. But apparently, somebody over there said, "You know what's missing? Screaming like a maniac about a rookie card on your couch." And we love them for that. Because Underdog now has RIPS. You get a digital pack, starting at just $5. You check the live odds, see which grails you could pull, then rip it open to reveal a real, physical card. And the grails are no joke. They have cards up to $125,000 in value. And plenty to pull. From football and basketball to Pokémon. With new, limited edition packs dropping regularly. Even cooler, you can decide to keep the card and Underdog will ship it straight to your home. Or sell it back instantly at 100% of its fair market value.

• 1:48:59Speaker 05

  And the cash goes right in your account. No listing it online, no stranger lowballing you in the messages. Just rip, reveal, and cash out instantly. Or make some room on your shelf. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Get five free RIPS packs when you deposit $5. Real RIPS, real cards, real cash. Only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18+, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 1:49:23Speaker 06

  Looking for a new way to take control of your health? If diet, exercise, and willpower alone haven't gotten you where you want to be, visit OrderlyMedds.com to learn about GLP-1 treatment options. With a convenient virtual process, you can connect with licensed medical providers from home and see if treatment may be appropriate for you. Visit OrderlyMedds.com today. That's OrderlyMedds.com. Compounded medications are not FDA-approved. Eligibility determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:49:53Jack Murphy?

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at OnDeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:50:32Speaker 05

  Games on a break? Don't doom scroll. Try rips on Underdog. Buy a digital pack, rip it open, and reveal a real physical card. Football, basketball, even Pokemon. Packs start at just $5. Ship it straight to your door or sell it back instantly at full market value. Max value up to $125,000. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Deposit $5, get five free packs. Real rips, real cards, real cash. Only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18+, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 1:51:03Speaker 00

  Ready to feel energized and in control again? At Orderly Meds, we have helped thousands just like you take charge of their health with a GLP-1. If you've tried dieting, exercising, and relying on willpower and nothing seems to stick, then it might be time to talk to a licensed provider about your options. That's what Orderly Meds is for. This fall, choose healthier habits for yourself with a visit to OrderlyMeds.com. You don't need to visit with a physician and person to become eligible. Orderly Meds has a simple virtual process. Connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine whether a GLP-1 treatment may be appropriate for you wherever you are. Getting started from the comfort of home, online. Change your habits and consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit OrderlyMeds.com to learn more.

• 1:51:47Speaker 00

  That's OrderlyMeds.com. OrderlyMeds.com. Gain confidence and choose better habits this fall. Compounded medications are not FDA-approved. Eligibility required and determined by licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at OnDeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:52:39Speaker 05

  Games on a break? Instead of doom scrolling, try rips on Underdog. Rip real player cards worth real money right there in the app. It's instant cash in the palm of your hand. Buy a digital pack, rip it open on your phone, and reveal a real physical card. Football, basketball, Pokemon, yes, Pokemon, and more. The best part? Packs start at just $5. And if you pull something you don't want to let go of just yet, have it shipped straight to your door. Want the cash? Sell it back instantly at 100% of its fair market value. No listing, no negotiating, no stranger asking if you'll trade it for a used jet ski, even though jet skis are super sick. Best part? There are some serious grails in the mix, with maximum card values reaching up to $125,000,

• 1:53:24Speaker 05

  depending on your pack tier. You can also check the live odds and see what you could pull before you rip, and what other cards are being pulled by fans. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Get five free rips packs when you deposit $5. Real rips, real cards, real cash. Only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18+, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 1:53:45Speaker 00

  Ready to feel more energized and in control of your health? If you've tried diet and exercise but still aren't seeing the results you're looking for, it may be time to explore a different approach. At OrderlyMeds.com, you can connect with licensed medical providers through a simple virtual process, all from the comfort of home, and find out if a GLP-1 treatment may be right for you. Learn more at OrderlyMeds.com. That's OrderlyMeds.com. Compounded medications are not FDA-approved. Eligibility determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Covers seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at OnDeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:54:52Speaker 05

  Underdog already has team picks, player props, money lines, spreads, you name it, they got it. But apparently, somebody over there said, "You know what's missing? Screaming like a maniac about a rookie card on your couch." And we love them for that. Because Underdog now has rips. You get a digital pack, starting at just five bucks. You check the live odds, see which grails you could pull, then rip it open to reveal a real, physical card. And the grails are no joke. They have cards up to $125,000 in value, and plenty to pull. From football and basketball to Pokémon, with new, limited edition packs dropping regularly. Even cooler, you can decide to keep the card, and Underdog will ship it straight to your home. Or sell it back instantly at 100% of its fair market value.

• 1:55:36Speaker 05

  And the cash goes right in your account. No listing it online, no stranger lowballing you in the messages. Just rip, reveal, and cash out instantly. Or make some room on your shelf. Download Underdog and get in on the chase. Get five free rips packs when you deposit $5. Real rips, real cards, real cash. Only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. 18+, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 1:56:01Speaker 00

  Ready to feel energized and in control again? At Orderly Meds, we have helped thousands just like you take charge of their health with a GLP-1. If you've tried dieting, exercising, and relying on willpower, and nothing seems to stick, then it might be time to talk to a licensed provider about your options. That's what Orderly Meds is for. This fall, choose healthier habits for yourself with a visit to OrderlyMeds.com. You don't need to visit with a physician in person to become eligible. Orderly Meds has a simple virtual process. Connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine whether a GLP-1 treatment may be appropriate for you wherever you are. Getting started from the comfort of home, online. Change your habits and consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit OrderlyMeds.com to learn more.

• 1:56:45Speaker 00

  That's OrderlyMeds.com. OrderlyMeds.com Gain confidence and choose better habits this fall. Compounded medications are not FDA-approved. Eligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

• 1:57:06Speaker 00

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