The Pitmaster With A Pulpit

Monday through Saturday, Devin Pickard and his family run Papa KayJoe's BBQ in Centerville, Tennessee. But on Sundays, Devin trades the BBQ pit for the pulpit at Hope Church, the non-denominational congregation where he preaches. In many ways, food is a natural fit for a southern preacher, but there are other, less obvious ways Devin's two professions come together.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean. Whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love like maple and brown sugar, and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker. Available at a store near you.

• 1:03Dan Pashman?

  Can you just say your name and introduce yourself, plus your title?

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Uh, my name is Devin Pickard. I'm the owner of Papa K Joe's BBQ in Centerville, Tennessee. No title, just Devin.

• 1:13Dan Pashman?

  Well, you have another job.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  I do. I'm a preacher. Yeah.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  I would prefer them call me Right Reverend, or Your Highness, or something, but they never, they never. I've tried to get people to do that, or, you know, curtsy or bow, but they never, they never do that.

• 1:33Dan Pashman?

  This is the Spork Fall. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And this is the last stop in our month in the South. So far, I spoke to Karen Block-McCarry at Memphis. I took a road trip visiting gas station restaurants in Alabama and Mississippi. And I talked with Deb Freeman, who released a new documentary about the iconic Virginian Edna Lewis. Today on the Spork Fall, I travel to Centerville, Tennessee, where I'm meeting up with pit master and preacher Devin Pickard. Centerville's a small town about an hour southwest of Nashville. It's the seat of Hickman County and the birthplace of country comedian Minnie Pearl. Johnny Cash lived in the area for a time, too. He even wrote a song called "Saturday Night in Hickman County."

• 2:21Dan Pashman?

  Papa K. Joe's BBQ is on the outskirts of town, set into a hill by the Duck River. It's on a piece of land that's been in Devin Pickard's family for at least a half century. If you go up the hill a little more, you'll find Devin's house and his parents' house. Devin started working at a barbecue place in Dixon, the next county over, when he was 15. He managed some restaurants, too.

• 3:05Dan Pashman?

  And in 1999, when his granddad passed away, Devin's father told him he should use the family land to open his own place. Papa K. Joe's was born. Papa was what they called Devin's grandfather, who had passed away, and K. Joe is short for Devin's kids, Kaylee and Jordan. When I visited the restaurant, I asked Devin about his barbecue education.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Well, I just learned at the place in Dixon. It was really old-school barbecue, so we cooked shoulders. We burned hickory wood and with a shovel would shovel up some coals, scatter the coals under the shoulders. There were no thermostats or anything, so you just kind of learn. Eventually, you learn where your hotspots are. You learn how much coals to put here and how much coals to put there. I learned to cook by feel. As it's browning up, you know, it's time to turn it. And that takes a long time to learn how to do right.

• 3:53Dan Pashman?

  The thing I don't understand about barbecue, Devin, is, you know, like, I understand why there's not great local corn in Wisconsin in February. And I understand why there's not great lobster in Oklahoma. No offense, Oklahoma. But to me, it seems like barbecue is more like a craft that you learn, and if you've got a good cut of meat and a good smoker, you should be able to do it anywhere. And yet, I can tell you, living in New York, every year, there's a new barbecue joint opens up, and it's always the same story. It's always this so-and-so. He went down south, and he lived in Tennessee, or South Carolina, or Texas, or whatever it was.

• 4:35Dan Pashman?

  And he trained under the pit masters and he learned all the secrets and he took the smoker and hitched it to the back of a truck and he brought it up here to New York and now he's making authentic barbecue in New York and it's never the same, ever. Why not?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  The smoker that I have right now, I bought from a fella who had the dream of doing that in Indianapolis, I think. Bought this big smoker and I don't think ever even sniffed opening it up on it because he realized it was too hard. It can be a difficult thing. I think people may underestimate how to cook good barbecue. Some of the best pit masters in the world are folks who are probably over 50 years old because they've just learned their craft and fine tuned it over the course of all that time. And, "Oh, well, that was a little too much salt or well, I should have used kosher salt as opposed to table salt or brisket. You've got to cook to temp and you don't want too done because it'll taste like pot roast and all that stuff."

• 5:31Speaker 01

  And the thing about it as well, you would assume that if you cook a cut of meat the same way every time, that it's going to turn out the same way every time, but with barbecue and that's not necessarily true. For whatever reason, every now and then, either fat, too much fat rendered out or it wasn't, you know, it didn't render out enough. It's a difficult thing to keep consistent.

• 5:53Dan Pashman?

  When you walk into Papa Kajo's, you're hit with the unmistakable smell of smoked meat. And you'll know exactly where you are because just about everything on the walls relates to Hickman County. Photos, newspaper clippings, even the high school basketball team's old scoreboard. Then, there's a big sign that says, "Easter is all about Jesus." Devon's faith is a huge part of his life. A few miles up the road from the restaurant is Devon's ministry, Hope Church. It's non-denominational. Devon started it a couple of years ago. He's been preaching since he was 17, ever since the regular pastor where his family was going at the time was away at the last minute. Devon filled in and never looked back. In college, he'd preach on the weekends here and there to make extra money.

• 6:35Dan Pashman?

  Now, he's 48 and has his own congregation of 150 people. And Devon has a very clear idea of the kind of place he wants Hope Church to be.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  You know, I preach in Chuck Taylor tennis shoes and t-shirts, so we try to make it very welcoming for folks who maybe don't feel comfortable wearing a suit and tie. And we're real addiction-driven. Most, every family out there has had someone that has struggled with addiction in one way or another.

• 7:03Dan Pashman?

  Why was it important to you to focus on that?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Well, my oldest daughter had a season of addiction in her life, a real struggle right out of high school. So it was a real personal thing for us. I lived it and am living it. You know, she's in recovery and we pray to God that she never goes back. But it's a, it's, we have seen here what addiction does to families and to individuals and to communities. I mean, it's a really, really tough thing.

• 7:36Dan Pashman?

  Are there other constituencies or groups that might feel left out at other churches that you want to feel welcome at your church?

• 7:45Speaker 01

  We welcome anybody, anyone who's searching for God. And we don't care, you know, who you vote for, we don't care what color you are, we don't care what country you're from. I used to use the word tolerant, but I don't like that word. A fellow explained to me sometime back that when you say tolerate, really what that's is saying is, you know, you're lesser than me, but I kind of will tolerate. I'll, you know, let you grace my presence with your presence. And so I've thrown the tolerance word out. We just, we just want to embrace people who are really at a very dark place in their life. You know, we feel like we can draw a lot more people to a relationship with the Lord

• 8:29Speaker 01

  by showing compassion and understanding rather than shoving them away because they're not like us.

• 8:35Dan Pashman?

  What do you do, how do you handle it when you've got a potential new parishioner that you're meeting, maybe you're sharing a meal with, and they, it becomes clear to you that that's not the kind of church that they're looking for?

• 8:51Speaker 01

  I let them make that decision. We don't run them off by no means.

• 8:55Dan Pashman?

  Is there a specific story you can share of an interaction you had with someone where you had that kind of exchange where it was clear that maybe they were looking for a different kind of church than what you want to be providing?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Yes. We had some folks to show up to visit a few weeks after the Orlando shooting at the gay nightclub. And oddly enough, we had a meal that day. So, as is usually the case, if there's a new couple, you know, they'll kind of go sit by themselves. So as a preacher, I gotta go sit and talk with them, make them feel comfortable. So I did. And during that conversation, they essentially said, you know, "Praise God for that massacre, and we hope there are more." I swallowed my food. I told them we were glad they were there, and I just kind of excused myself.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  They were at the wrong church. They were sitting with the wrong preacher. We love, we love, we love. Now, there may be things in your life, or in the lives of other people, that I disagree with, that I believe maybe the Bible has a certain thing to say about that topic. But nothing would ever, ever, ever cause me to say, "Praise God that all those innocent people died." Nothing ever stops me from loving.

• 10:51Dan Pashman?

  So you've gotten a sense of Devon as a pit master and as a preacher. But how do these two roles come together? Well, there's an obvious connection and a less obvious one.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Well, if we have any kind of a meal at church, they expect me to bring barbecue. And they want it free, of course. It's odd, our attendance is higher when they know we're gonna eat. Isn't that amazing? Which is fine. But I don't have a church office, per se. But the office is out back in the pit.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  People seem to feel more comfortable showing up during the week. I'm out back cooking or doing whatever. Can we talk? You know, they make, say, can we talk? I need a little bit of time. And I think some folks would rather do that than come to a church office where things seem sanitary and things seem rigid. I don't know. People get really good at putting masks on on Sundays and portraying something that they're not. You know, they're screaming at each other in the car when they get out of the parking lot and then they get out. Hello, how's everybody doing? I hope that Hope Church and Papa K Joe's in some ways are synonymous. Not only because people can find me at either place, but because they know that they're gonna be accepted and loved at either place. They're gonna be fed at either place.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  And hopefully that they leave both places feeling better than they did when they got there.

• 12:15Dan Pashman?

  Hey, oh, yeah. Later that afternoon, Devin took me out back to see the barbecue pit. Oh, that smell. He's got his old smoker out there that he doesn't use anymore, and a newer one. It's in a shed that's open on two sides. There are piles of boxes and a table where Devin does his prep work.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  You know, it means a lot to have it on this property. So my mom and dad, if there were no trees here, you could see their houses right here. My daughter and her husband live beside of them. And we own, you know, property over that way. And then there goes my brother.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, bye bye. So, yeah, it's kind of a, my daddy calls it Pickard Hill.

• 12:53Dan Pashman?

  Now, at any good barbecue joint, the pit elicits a certain reverence. It's where the pit master works their magic. Because you know, they don't put filet mignon in the smoker. Barbecue places don't serve you a porterhouse. The iconic cuts of meat in barbecue are the ones that are too tough to eat unless they're cooked for hours. They're the castoffs. And a great pit master sees their potential and transforms them. The pit is where these lowly cuts of meat are redeemed. So really, a barbecue pit is the perfect place for a preacher. And it makes sense that so many of Devin's parishioners would come here to talk with him. After Devin and I spent a little more time chatting, a parishioner named Mark showed up. He works in a nearby factory.

• 13:35Dan Pashman?

  Mark didn't grow up very religious. His parents never really felt welcome at church. Devin just baptized him a few years ago. What inspired you to get baptized at age 50?

• 13:44Speaker 02

  A lot of it had to do with being around Devin.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Seeing the way he was with people and

• 13:51Speaker 02

  just the way they worked church.

• 13:53Dan Pashman?

  Tell me about it. What's the way that they work churches different from other churches?

• 13:57Speaker 02

  They accepted everybody. Oh, you're gonna make me tear up now.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  I got that big man syndrome. I tear up really easy. But yeah, Devin, they, I mean, they just treat everybody the same. They don't look at somebody because they got tattoos or they got piercings is a different type of person. They just look at them as another person.

• 14:16Dan Pashman?

  What is it about you that made you feel not welcome at other churches when you were younger?

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Well, you'd go to some churches and it'd be like Sunday, they'd eat you up and Monday, they wouldn't know you.

• 14:29Dan Pashman?

  And what's the connection between the church and the restaurant? How do these three or two things work together?

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Well, it works out good for people in the church because Devin's not in the factory like I am. And if somebody wants to talk to him, he's able to stop what he's doing and help him out. There's been a lot of people come out here with a lot of problems and this pit has been solved.

• 14:50Dan Pashman?

  So this is like this, uh, this is, it's its own kind of church right here?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Like a holy smoker right here.

• 15:02Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, I will eat at Papa K Jo's. You didn't think I'd go all the way to Centerville, Tennessee and not get myself a meal, did you? Plus, cookbook author Tammy Allgood introduces me to a special way to end a meal, and I attempt to put my own spin on it. You sure you don't want another bite of cake?

• 15:17Speaker 03

  You're a bad boy, Dan, a bad boy.

• 15:21Dan Pashman?

  That's all coming up. Stick around.

• 15:29Speaker 04

  Ooh, advertisements. Yummy.

• 15:34Dan Pashman?

  Thank you to American Express, the presenting sponsor of today's episode. I'm so happy to have them on board because I break out my Amex Gold card when I go out to eat. So I'm always thinking about them when I'm eating. Of course, my first thought is about where to eat. Now, I got pins in my maps to let me know where I want to go, where I've been. There's what am I in the mood for, what's got a lot of word of mouth, what looks great on social media, what's convenient or nearby, what's open. And then I go out to eat, and it's usually very good. And then Amex Gold tops the whole experience off. Because I get four times Membership Rewards points at global restaurants up to $50,000 annually. Cardholders can enroll and earn up to $120 back in statement credits after paying at participating dining partners, and get up to $100 back annually after you pay with the American Express Gold Card

• 16:17Dan Pashman?

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• 17:06Dan Pashman?

  As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean. Whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider.

• 17:40Dan Pashman?

  There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba's not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fair. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines and Beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you.

• 18:13Dan Pashman?

  Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you.

• 18:45Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to This Borkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, I spoke with the journalist Deb Freeman, who just made a documentary about Edna Lewis. Now, Edna Lewis was one of the first Black women to write a successful mainstream cookbook about Southern cooking. And in that book, she talked about seasonality and farm-to-table cooking long before it became trendy. And she tied that approach to the way she grew up in Freetown, Virginia. And as we hear in this episode, while it's true that Edna grew up with farm-fresh food in this farmer community, she was also raised with recipes that were heavily influenced by European cuisine. Because she grew up near Monticello, Thomas Jefferson's estate/plantation. When Edna came to New York to work as a caterer, she took the New York food world by storm. Here's Deb Freeman.

• 19:23Speaker 05

  She takes her experiences from cooking for all of these white families and these white dinner parties and marries that with the tradition of cooking that she had back in Virginia and creates this menu. It really became the hotspot for bohemians, to use that word all the time. And so folks, very famous people would show up there. Eleanor Roosevelt showed up there and all of these dignitaries show up there for her food.

• 19:50Dan Pashman?

  Edna Lewis had a huge influence on American food culture. She's probably had an impact on the food you eat today, but there's so much about her life that's still unknown, which is why Deb wanted to make a documentary highlighting her life and work. Hear all about it in last week's episode. It's up now wherever you got this one. All right, let's get back to the show. After spending time talking with Devin and hearing his story, I was ready to eat. I didn't order, I just put myself in his hands. I was joined for the meal by the food journalist Tammy Allgood. She was actually the one who brought me to Papa K. Joe's in the first place. Tammy was born in Starkville, Mississippi. She's a food editor for Tennessee Magazine. She's written five cookbooks. She got into cookbook writing when people in her Bible study group were having trouble following recipes in other cookbooks. Tammy thought she could do better. One of her books is about Sunday

• 20:35Dan Pashman?

  dinner in the South, which is the meal traditionally eaten after church. So it seemed like there was one obvious place to begin. So we're talking Sunday dinners. In your mind, what makes a great casserole?

• 20:47Speaker 06

  Balance. I see a lot of people that treat casseroles like they treat salads. In essence, they clean out their produce drawer and they put a lot of things in there. And by the time that fork gets to your mouth, there's so many different flavors and textures going on there that you can't almost process all of it. So I think that the perfect casserole is a nice, has a little crunch in there, but not too much, has a little spice in there, but not too much, has a few vegetables in there, but not everything that you own, and

• 21:30Speaker 06

  that has a protein source in there that balances everything out. So I think that simple is better when it comes to casseroles and salads.

• 21:41Dan Pashman?

  I'm glad you mentioned the importance of texture. I mean, I'm a crunch guy. I like crunch and spice. And I think you're right. If you don't have something... Crunchy inside your casserole, you're gonna be in

• 21:53Speaker 06

  It's boring.

• 21:54Dan Pashman?

  Right. So with Sunday dinner in particular, there's kind of a, there's a logistical challenge, because you're in church all morning, and then you gotta come home and everyone's starving.

• 22:06Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 22:06Dan Pashman?

  How do you handle that?

• 22:08Speaker 06

  I believe that's the perfect role for appetizers.

• 22:11Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 22:13Speaker 06

  My mother's perfect solution for Sunday dinner was chicken spaghetti. So it's a merge of a chicken casserole with spaghetti in there that was oven-ready. She would set it out of the refrigerator before we left to go to church. And then as soon as we got home, the oven was preheating and it was back in the oven. And basically, with a little bit of flatbread and some pickled vegetables, we were fine for about 45 minutes while that heated in the oven. And that was all we got. You just got a little bit of an appetizer. There weren't trays of appetizers set out. There were individual portions set out.

• 22:57Dan Pashman?

  This is something to take the edge off.

• 22:58Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 22:59Dan Pashman?

  So for your Sunday dinner cookbook, you spoke with a lot of preachers.

• 23:03Speaker 06

  Forty.

• 23:03Dan Pashman?

  Wow. What were some of the consistencies that you heard from them over again about, about the relationship between food and church?

• 23:14Speaker 06

  Unfortunately, a lot of the preachers and pastors and bishops and rabbis that I interviewed had zero memory of a Sunday dinner at a parishioner's home because they're always taken out to eat. In fact, I had several that said, you know, I've never been invited. I can't give you a story. And that made me very sad to hear that.

• 23:42Dan Pashman?

  Why do you think parishioners would be reluctant to invite them over?

• 23:46Speaker 06

  I think that it's because of the time issue that we talked about, and I think that it is a feeling of inadequacy on their part.

• 23:55Dan Pashman?

  You mean like, what if our home isn't nice enough?

• 23:59Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 24:00Dan Pashman?

  What if I'm not a good enough cook?

• 24:01Speaker 06

  What if I don't have a beautifully set table? What if I don't have fresh flowers on the table? What if we don't have matching dishes? I also think that a lot of clergy told me that there is a level of competition there. That they find out that so-and-so had them over the week before and they're gonna try and outdo that person the next Sunday.

• 24:26Dan Pashman?

  Can that also be an issue at church potlucks?

• 24:28Speaker 06

  Totally.

• 24:32Speaker 06

  Totally. I have spent a lot of time at church potlucks. And what I see now is a truly concerted effort to pull your eye to their dish. So garnishes that were never a part of potlucks when I was growing up are suddenly all over the place. And even little place cards telling you exactly what these are. So it's not your grandmother's potluck anymore. It, it, they've upped their game a whole lot on that.

• 25:05Dan Pashman?

  But the fact that this sort of, this competition has arisen, what do you, what does that tell you about church communities?

• 25:17Speaker 06

  Well, it tells me that in the midst of the love, there's also a healthy amount of pride. And I like that. I like that people are putting extra effort into things and that it's not just an ordinary day. This is Sunday potluck. It's, it is meant to stand apart from every other meal and they're making it do that.

• 25:45Dan Pashman?

  So, Sunday dinner is special. And like with a lot of special meals, there are some important rules of etiquette.

• 25:52Speaker 06

  Never, ever, ever, do you start eating until the food has been blessed. And so, what I like is that that is the signal that the meal starts. That you don't just, everybody's coming in at different times and sitting down and fixing their plates. That there's a start to the meal, and that there's an end to the meal. Another etiquette point is that you don't get into anything controversial. That this is to be an enjoyed experience after your soul has been fed. So, politics and confrontational things like that aren't really done.

• 26:34Speaker 06

  In fact, most of the time in the South, what we do is talk about the food.

• 26:39Dan Pashman?

  It's interesting, I guess, food is such a universal topic that if someone's like, "Hmm, seems like we're on the verge of nuclear war," you could be like, "Check out these biscuits."

• 26:50Speaker 06

  Exactly, exactly. Get your perspective right, man.

• 26:56Dan Pashman?

  We could be gone tomorrow, we got biscuits today.

• 26:58Speaker 06

  That's right, we're happy today.

• 27:04Dan Pashman?

  Pretty soon, the trays of food started arriving. They were delivered by Devon's mom, who the family calls Oma. I see baked beans, I see coleslaw, I see potato salad, I see collard greens, oh, here comes the meat, oh mercy.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  I don't think we have enough food.

• 27:23Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. Oma, what are your instructions for the corn cake? Are these corn cakes?

• 27:28Speaker 07

  Yes, well, my instruction is to put a big pat of butter on them.

• 27:32Speaker 07

  You know, a pat here and a pat here.

• 27:35Dan Pashman?

  As Oma says, "A pat here and a pat here," she gestures to each cheek of her behind. Can I just take a piece of this sausage with my hand, Tammy?

• 27:43Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:44Dan Pashman?

  Tammy showed me how to build a structure that one of Devin's friends came up with. He calls it "the southern way." You start with a corn cake, add pulled pork and a bit of barbecue sauce, and then top it with coleslaw, fold it up sort of like a taco. You know, Tammy talked about the importance of balance in casseroles. Well, that's also so important in barbecue, and Devin nailed it. Oh, my. Oh, it's so good.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  You could taste the smoke.

• 28:06Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. The meat was smoky and salty, but not too much. The corn cakes and barbecue sauce were sweet, but not too much. Coleslaw brought crunch and acidity. I mean, wow. Then there was the sausage casing snap and the tenderness of the chicken and the ribs. And the surprise hit for me? Turnip greens. They have this mild bitterness that really stood out so nicely. Then came dessert. Devin's mom, Oma, that's her department. But she hadn't been down at Papa K's in a while because she had knee replacement surgery. When she heard I was coming, she got right back to baking. And I am so grateful that she did. I mean, carrot cake, chest pie, coconut chest pie. In case you don't know, chest pie is a custard pie common in the South.

• 28:51Dan Pashman?

  I took some of each home in my carry-on. I was eating them for days. Now their memory is kind of haunting me. I'm sure that's normal. Anyway, Tammy and I were stuffed. But I noticed when they were clearing the plates, Tammy, and we still have our tray of ribs and chicken and sausage here, and you said, "No, don't take that yet. Leave that here."

• 29:14Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 29:14Dan Pashman?

  Why?

• 29:15Speaker 06

  It's our sweet out.

• 29:16Dan Pashman?

  Sweet out.

• 29:17Speaker 06

  Our sweet out. So in the South, after the meal is finished and you've finished your dessert, you have a little something salty to get the sweet flavor out of your mouth. So in the South, we call it a sweet out. So the best sweet out I can even imagine having is just a little bite of this meat after our meal.

• 29:38Dan Pashman?

  Do you ever end up falling into a situation where you have a little taste of the salty? And then you're like, "Well, maybe just one more bite of cake." And then you have the cake and you're like, "Well, I need my sweet out now." And they're like, "Eh, maybe one more bite of pie." And you like fall down this horrible vortex and never stop eating?

• 29:54Speaker 06

  You could, but that would be your own problem. You're supposed to completely finish your dessert before you do your sweet out.

• 30:00Dan Pashman?

  Oh, okay. You didn't mention that part. Okay, gotcha.

• 30:06Dan Pashman?

  So what do you think we should, what should be our sweet out, Tammy?

• 30:08Speaker 03

  I think our sweet out should be that little piece of pulled pork.

• 30:11Dan Pashman?

  Okay, let's do it.

• 30:15Dan Pashman?

  Oh, you're right, that is nice.

• 30:17Speaker 03

  Perfect.

• 30:18Dan Pashman?

  And it tastes saltier.

• 30:19Speaker 03

  Yes, it does.

• 30:20Dan Pashman?

  After having just had it. Oh, my gosh. You sure you don't want another bite of cake?

• 30:26Speaker 03

  You're a bad boy, Dan, a bad boy.

• 30:52Dan Pashman?

  That's Tammy Allgood. She's the author of five cookbooks, including Sunday Dinner in the South and The Complete Southern Cookbook. My thanks to Devin Pickard, Oma, and everyone at Papa Cajun's Barbecue. And this is a big year for Devon. Papa Cajun's Barbecue celebrates its 25th anniversary this year, and Hope Church is celebrating its 10th anniversary. So congratulations to Devon and the whole family. If you're near Centerville, make sure you stop in, say hello, tell them this Porkful sent ya. One more big bit of news, Devon is running for city mayor this fall, so if you live in Centerville, look out for his campaign. Next week, we bring back the Salad Spinner, a rapid-fire roundtable discussion of food news. Now, normally, this is more strange and silly, but over the past few months, there's a lot of big and important food news.

• 31:33Dan Pashman?

  Tariffs, raw milk, the price of eggs, bird flu, all these things. We've got two all-star journalists joining us to help us break it all down for you. And if you're looking for more Sporkful episodes to listen to, check out the rest of our Month in the South episodes, from my conversation with Karen Blockman Carrier in Memphis, to my road trip of gas station restaurants across the South, the last week's show about Edna Lewis. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful

• 32:15Dan Pashman?

  listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporful. This episode was produced by me, along with managing producer- Emma Morgenstern. Senior producer- Andres O'Hara. And producer- Anne Sanney. It was edited by Dan Charles. The show is mixed by- Jared O'Connell. Our intern is- Julia Leo. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 32:40Speaker 08

  And I'm Andrew from Downey, California, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 32:59Dan Pashman?

  Thank you to our presenting sponsor, American Express. Amex Gold makes your dining experiences more rewarding so you can discover and connect more. Enjoy every meal with the benefits that come with the American Express Gold Card. For terms and to learn more, visit americanexpress.com/withamex.

• 33:18Speaker 09

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So, when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's Syndrome can occur. Get help for

• 34:00Speaker 09

  high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTC or visit nurtac.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 34:17Speaker 10

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• 35:01Speaker 10

  While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.