Think About Death. Science Says You’ll Be Happier. | Dr. Laurie Santos

The most misunderstood Stoic practice is Memento Mori - remember you will die. Dr. Laurie Santos, an expert on the science of happiness, joins Ryan to share the research behind why thinking about your mortality is proven to increase happiness. Dr. Laurie shares how to balance negative and positive visualizations for a fulfilling life, the Stoic practices that she swears by, and practical applications of Stoic and Buddhist teachings. Dr. Laurie Santos is an expert on the science of happiness and the ways in which our minds lie to us about what makes us happy. Her Yale course, “Psychology and the Good Life,” teaches students how the science of psychology can provide important hints about how to make wiser choices and live a life that’s happier and more fulfilling. The class became Yale’s most popular course in over 300 years, with almost one out of four students enrolled. Her course has been featured in the New York Times, NBC Nightly News, The Today Show, GQ Magazine, Slate and O! Magazine. The online version of the class—The Science of Well-Being on Coursera.org—has attracted more than 4 million learners from around the world. A winner of numerous awards both for her science and teaching, she was recently voted as one of Popular Science Magazine’s “Brilliant 10” young minds, and was named in Time Magazine as a “Leading Campus Celebrity.” Listen to Dr. Laurie’s podcast, The Happiness Lab, where she shares the latest scientific research on what it means to be truly happy. Check out more of Dr. Laurie’s work at DrLaurieSantos.com and follow her Instagram @LaurieSantosOfficial, X @LaurieSantos, and on YouTube and TikTok @DrLaurieSantos🪙 We have a collection of items in the Daily Stoic store to help you in your own memento mori practice, check them out here: https://store.dailystoic.com/📖 Preorder the final book in Ryan Holiday's The Stoic Virtues Series: "Wisdom Takes Work": https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/wisdom-takes-work🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,

• 0:46Ryan Holiday?

  and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

• 0:54Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I was swimming in Barton Springs yesterday. And I'm swimming, I kind of see this movement. It's like a weird thing with Barton Springs where, you know, there's like huge fish in there. And you know, there's turtles, you don't see them as much, not as much as like Balmore or whatever. But I see this sort of soft-shelled turtle just start to head up to the surface. And then she takes off like a rocket just... And it almost hits me. It was dodging turtles, surfacing turtles from the depths of Barton Springs. And I just, I was like, ah, man. Life is absurd and life is good. Even just like the light in the pool was amazing,

• 1:37Ryan Holiday?

  where you could actually see everything because it's brighter in the mornings. I don't know, it was just a great day. And so I'm excited to tell you about today's episode. Actually, this goes back a couple of months now. My research assistant, Billy Oppenheimer, who you've heard me talk about before, many of you get his Sunday newsletter, which I highly recommend. You can find that at BillyOppenheimer.com. He is working on a book, which I'm very excited about. I'm sure he'll be on the podcast when that eventually comes out. Though he has not sent me a copy of it. And I'm saying this here on the episode. To jostle him a little bit so he'll finish it up and get it into the publisher. No, but anyways, Billy sent me a clip. He's like, hey, did you see this?

• 2:19Ryan Holiday?

  And it was a clip of the Huberman Lab podcast where this woman, Dr. Laurie Santos, is talking about memento mori. And I was like, oh, wow, that's so cool. And let me actually play the clip real fast.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  It's useful to remember, like, you know, this is limited, right? This is temporary. I should enjoy this now while it's happening. The most extreme version of this, of course, is with our own lives, right? Contemplating our mortality. There's this idea of memento mori, which is a common phrase, actually, of my, my ring has memento mori on it, which is morbid, right? I'm gonna die. I'm not gonna be here. But when you recognize that, you know, the old school folks thought, and I think it's true, like, you realize, like, I can't take any of this stuff for granted. I have to pay attention now. This is not, you know, the kind of thing that's gonna last forever.

• 3:06Ryan Holiday?

  And then so we, we reached out and we found out that Dr. Santos would be in Austin for South by Southwest. And she came to the studio. I was like, hey, what are you in town for? South by? This is when she shows up and she's like, oh, yeah, I'm here at South by to interview Michelle Obama. And I was like, what? Okay, that's a, that's a pretty good reason to come to town. Not what I would have expected to bring someone to Central Texas, but here we are. And it does make sense. Dr. Santos is an expert on happiness. Her Yale course, The Psychology and the Good Life, teaches students how the science of psychology can make you happier and live a more fulfilling life.

• 3:49Ryan Holiday?

  They've told me the most popular class in Yale history. And Yale has a pretty decent history. I mean, it is 300 years old. So to have the most popular class at one of the most prestigious universities in the world is a pretty incredible accomplishment. And, you know, it makes me think, like, I was introduced to the Stoics while I was in a class in college called Aristotle and the Meaning of Life. So, you know, I just love that this stuff is so popular. And I love that she is bringing the Stoics into her courses. She is, as you will see in this episode, very well versed in the Stoics. We share a lot of ideas and strategies that we both try to apply in our personal life. And yeah, I just, I really liked this interview. It was really exciting.

• 4:34Ryan Holiday?

  Her work is of course incredibly popular. You've seen it all over the world. She has an online version of the class called The Science of Well Being on Coursera, which has had more than four million students go through it. Her podcast, The Happiness Lab, where she interviews people like Michelle Obama, is one of the most popular podcasts anywhere there are podcasts. So it's all very impressive. You can check out her work at drlorisantos.com. You can follow her on Instagram. I will link to that. You can follow her on Twitter. She has a YouTube channel and a TikTok channel. I will link to all of this. Anyways, I was just thinking, this is a good life, man. Dodge and turtles in Barton Springs, dropped my kid off from school, went swimming, then I picked him up and went on a field trip. I just, I get to do this. This is what my life is. It's always perfect.

• 5:18Ryan Holiday?

  There was traffic, there was this, you know, but like by and large, this is what the good life is. Stressful couple of weeks for me, but I don't know. More good than bad. And that's, I think, basically what we're going to talk about in today's episode, which I am excited to bring to you now.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  This is my favorite thing in the live studio podcast is like, tell me your table story.

• 5:40Ryan Holiday?

  Okay, this is Joan Didion's table.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Oh my God, that's a really good table story. All right, you win.

• 5:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. People are like, it's kind of a weird table, but it's like, I bought it at this auction and these are, this was like a dining room table in Joan Didion's house. Yeah, isn't that cool?

• 5:56Speaker 01

  That's super cool, yeah.

• 5:58Ryan Holiday?

  Normally I'm not like a coaster person. I'm like stressed.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  No, like, no, no, yeah. I just wanted to ask.

• 6:03Ryan Holiday?

  And then sometimes I'll go like, oh, you can just put that down there. And then they'll think it's like a suggestion. Do you know? I'm like, get it off the table. I think at some point I'll probably, because it's, I mean, the table had history before, but now all these people have sat at it.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:20Ryan Holiday?

  Like I bought it, it was a charity thing. And so I was like, oh, but maybe I could just re-donate it like 10 years from now.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:27Ryan Holiday?

  All these other people will have sat at the table and it'll.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  I mean, Joan would be happy bringing all these people to talk to her.

• 6:32Ryan Holiday?

  Maybe, she seems pretty judgmental.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Baby, that's true. She probably doesn't like anything, so.

• 6:38Ryan Holiday?

  And like, everything is, she's like this tiny lady, you know? So like, sometimes like, like, we have like, an athlete coming in soon. And I'm like, I don't know, we might have to get different chairs. This is, this is meant for a small person.

• 6:54Ryan Holiday?

  Well, thank you for coming.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks so much. I've been a fan for a while, so.

• 6:57Ryan Holiday?

  Really?

• 6:58Speaker 01

  I was, when I got this in, I was like, yes, yeah.

• 7:00Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I thought you might have your Memento Mori ring on.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  I took it off to travel because I'm scared I'm going to lose it. So, which is dumb. I also have another second arrow, so it's an arrow. So that's my Buddhist one, my Memento Mori one and a Buddhist one.

• 7:12Ryan Holiday?

  Well, tell me the story on both.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:13Ryan Holiday?

  Memento Mori, remember you will die. Why is that something you want to wear on your person?

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Because it's nice to remember that you're going to die, right? I mean, no, seriously, I mean, I think it like, causes you to live better. And there's research showing this too, right? That fast forwarding to your death, this idea of death awareness, noticing that things might go away soon. You wind up like, enjoying things more. Whether it's like a local thing, like they do this with like, college seniors who are about to graduate and just notice, hey, you're going to graduate really soon. They spend their time differently when you remind them.

• 7:41Ryan Holiday?

  Really?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  But I think for bigger things for life too, this is like, I mean, this is what the Stoics were on top of, like, before anybody did these social science studies about this stuff, but yeah.

• 7:49Ryan Holiday?

  Isn't it interesting how much social science studies confirm just hypotheses or arguments from ancient philosophy? That they were just making up 2,000 years ago or 2,500 years ago?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  And even still, like, I have a colleague, Hedy Kober, who studies meditation and a lot of kind of, you know, interpractice from Buddhists. And I was like, you need to go do Stoicism. So she's doing a negative visualization.

• 8:10Ryan Holiday?

  Oh.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Studies now to try to see if that also can like, she just studies like craving and these kinds of things. Can it reduce craving? Can it make you feel better and so on? But I'm like, still, new insights from them are coming in and.

• 8:20Ryan Holiday?

  So do you just kind of fiddle with the ring and?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  I do, yeah.

• 8:23Ryan Holiday?

  Is this something you run through in your mind?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Actually, another reason I don't take it to podcasts is I whack it, you know? I have to take it.

• 8:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you notice it every once in a while and then you, this is another one I got, which just came from Arthur Brooks, who I know you had on your show.

• 8:34Ryan Holiday?

  I think he was wearing a very similar.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so his work with the Dalai Lama, he hangs out with these monks who.

• 8:39Ryan Holiday?

  Did you go on that trip?

• 8:41Speaker 01

  I did not. I had a wedding and I was like, can you move the wedding? But I met one of the monks who was there and because of the work, they gave me this. And so it's blessed by the Dalai Lama and it's meant to remind you that you're on the path to being a bodhisattva. And it is true that I'll be like, like literally today, driving over here, trying to get out of the main part of Austin City. And I looked at it, it was about your road rage. And I was like, no, I want a path to being a bodhisattva.

• 9:03Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Control of this. And so, yeah, so the reminders help. Yeah.

• 9:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. I don't know if people agree. People find momentum mori morbid. People find it disconcerting, depressing. There's a reason that people don't do it. They don't want to think about it.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Oh, it's disturbing. I mean, I think it's partly the disturbingness that makes it so powerful.

• 9:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Right? It like makes me a little want to like vomit in my mouth every time I think about it. But it also makes me want to put my phone away and notice the things around me and have a conversation with someone. And so, yeah, I think it works because it's really discombobulating.

• 9:38Ryan Holiday?

  And you can get desensitized to it itself a little bit. And what I think is interesting, which has never been desensitized for me, is the one that Marcus Aurelius talks about in Meditations, which he's cribbing from Epictetus. He says, as you tuck your child in at night, say to yourself, they will not make it till the morning.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:54Ryan Holiday?

  So there's something about momentum mori for yourself. You just be like, yeah, of course I'm going to die. I always knew this. Hopefully, but, but it's when, if you have to meditate on losing someone or something so precious to you, you never become desensitized to that. It is always a very powerful, sobering, humbling, and a little bit terrifying thought to run through your mind. And there's something about the human mind that doesn't want to consider it precisely because of all those things.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. But what's amazing about the human mind is that you can just instantly switch your reference point with a little bit of imagination. Right? And I think this was one of the Stoic insights, like if you actually have a bad thing happen to you, that changes your reference point. Like I actually lose my phone, like while on this trip, oh my God, this is a pain in the butt. I gotta get, I never realized how much I appreciated my phone, but I get a new phone. It's like, oh, a phone, it's so useful. I can look at the map and so on.

• 10:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  But what's amazing is we don't actually have to go through the actual terrible thing. We can just simulate it very briefly.

• 10:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  And this is, I think Marcus Aurelius' insight, right? Like every morning you should wake up and think, I might, you know, get shunned. Lose my job, I lose my, my legs won't work and stuff. And I think that that's amazing that we have the power to do that, that we don't actually have to face the real consequences, but we can psychologically reset our reference point. It's such a good hack.

• 11:07Ryan Holiday?

  Well, what's interesting is we use our imagination in a way that's not helpful all the time.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 11:11Ryan Holiday?

  So we imagine a bunch of extremely unlikely, uh, you know, fake things. We're ruminating on stuff that nobody's thinking about and we're torturing ourselves with our imagination. Instead of using our imagination to prepare for things, like oftentimes if you act like the, if you just kind of have this vague imagining of a terrible thing, you feel unpleasant. But if you can get specific with it and you go, well, what would I do? Here's what my plan, actually it has the exact opposite effect. So you, it's, you sort of decide how you're going to use your imagination.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  And this is a critique that I sometimes get from my students. So I, I talk about these negative visualization, psychology studies in my happiness class. And I'll always get a student who stays after class and is like, but wait, isn't rumination terrible? Isn't that like the worst symptom of, you know, depressive episodes? And I'm like, Marcus Aurelius didn't say like, do that 14 hours a day. He said like first 10 minutes right before the war at all, you know, like do that quickly. And then recognize that that's not true, appreciate and move on. And I think that's where we get stuck, right? Is that we have to know the dosage of some of these practices and that can get a little tricky, including the Memento mori, right? A terrible health anxious paranoia that you're going to die.

• 12:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Is not awesome.

• 12:20Ryan Holiday?

  Right. Hypochondria is not the, the, supposed to be the result.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Correct. But I think the Stoics were good about giving us that sort of dosage. But in practice, that's, that's where the, the rubber meets the rubber.

• 12:31Ryan Holiday?

  Sophocles is like the right amount.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:33Ryan Holiday?

  Right. Like no, the ability to discern, which is also, it's interesting that the line between like, where's sort of temperance? Where's wisdom? But they're the same, they're related. It's like, what is the golden mean of this exercise, this truth, this idea? Because when you hear Seneca on the one hand, say, you know, we suffer more in imagination than in reality. And then he also says, he who suffers before it is necessary suffers more than is necessary. He says like the unexpected blow lands heaviest. And then he's also. Saying like, don't torture yourself with every possible thing that could happen. People feel like that's a contradiction. And I think oftentimes that is a critique of the Stoics, that they contradict each other. What they're actually saying is not too much over here and not too little over here.

• 13:18Ryan Holiday?

  Get the right amount, even on something like, hey, am I prepared for things to not go my way? Is very different than ruminating on how they're never going to go your way.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, if you, this is, I love the Stoics, but I also like bringing in these other kinds of traditions too, right? Like, if you look to Aristotle, this was something that Aristotle was really worried about, the kind of right amount. Like virtue isn't one thing or the other. It's not kind of bravery or cowardice. It's this lovely, sweet spot in the middle. And so, yeah, so I think that the right amount is something that we should be thinking about a lot.

• 13:48Ryan Holiday?

  Well, that's the problem with the word temperance, is that temperance in America, not even in English, but the temperance movement became the abstinence movement.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Smash your bottles of dry.

• 13:59Ryan Holiday?

  Exactly. I mean, none, not what is the right amount? What is a moderate, safe, reasonable amount? And that's a hard. And look, there's some things, not at all, some things you should definitely not do. There's probably not a moderate amount of heroin that you should be doing.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:17Ryan Holiday?

  Or a fentanyl or something, but, but there are other things that if you can do them in moderation, it's totally fine. And I think ruminating is probably one of those things, because there's a fine line between ruminating and being ignorant.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things I think the Stoics would say is that you're the main principle of like finding agency over your own mind, finding agency over your own emotions, finding agency over your own actions. Like, they almost want you to be probably in that hard, sweet spot of sorting it out for yourself, right? That's the kind of virtue that the Stoics want you to cultivate.

• 14:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you want to be prepared for things to go wrong, but also not a cynical, miserable, you know? Because I don't believe in manifestation, but I do believe like, if you have a fundamentally negative worldview, the world will be negative to you. I'm not, I don't think you're changing reality, but if you only look for the worst, you're going to find a lot of bad stuff.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Okay, but this is a spot where my students also get it confused. I think it is really confusing psychologically, right? Because on the one hand, we know thinking about the worst helps you a little bit in all the ways we were just talking about. We also know that optimism helps you a little bit, but it also has these interesting downsides, right? In the manifesting work, there's lots of work by folks like Gabriel Ottingen, that if you fantasize about a positive future a lot, you take less action towards that positive future.

• 15:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  So she uses these studies where like, you know, you fantasize about getting fit and going to the gym all the time. You think, oh, my gosh, it's gonna be so great. I'm gonna fit in my clothes and look great, whatever. But then the more you fantasize about it, the less you actually go to the gym.

• 15:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  And this too comes from a weird feature of imagination, which is that if we've imagined a goal, we don't want that goal as much anymore. There's this lovely study by this guy, Carrie Morwedge, who has people either imagining putting quarters into a vending machine over and over again, really slowly, or slowly eating M&Ms one by one. And then at the end of the study, people come out and there's a big vat of M&Ms.

• 16:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  What does he find? He finds that people that imagine the quarters eat less M&Ms because they kind of feel like if you imagined eating all the M&Ms, you're kind of satisfied by them. You don't need them anymore, right?

• 16:20Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  And this is what happens with certain kinds of positive fantasies. We imagine that we already went to the gym and got all the benefits. It's like, well, I don't need to put action into that.

• 16:39Ryan Holiday?

  I think it's kind of like you took, like, obviously the ancients were saying, like, you should do things for the right reasons, not for necessarily the external rewards. But if part of what is motivating us is the reward and you have stolen it, like you've taken it on credit, you've fantasized it into existence, you have decreased some of your motivation to do that thing. Like I've always, I try not to talk about like a book that I'm working on. I prefer to spend all the energy doing it.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:05Ryan Holiday?

  Because I find that that depletes the motivation to do the hard, uncomfortable day-to-day-ness of the thing. It's easier to live in the fantasy world than the messy making-it world.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Right. Or, or you can use your imagination to recognize, okay, if that's my goal, what's it really gonna take, right? This is kind of like, you know, when you go to the baths, like. Know what's going to happen at the baths, right? If you have this goal, know what it takes to get there.

• 17:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  And I think that was another really rich. I associate that with epictetus, but correct me if I'm getting the wrong stoic here. Yeah. Where it's kind of like, you know, if you want that goal, you want to be like the fit person. Imagine the plan to get there. And it turns out from the research that that's a thing that works really well. If you imagine, okay, I want to get fit, say, well, then I have to go to the gym every day. I do put my sneakers out. I really have to commit to this. And that helps you know what the plan is because you kind of rehearsed it. It's not as bad or not as much of a pain in the butt. But also sometimes you do that and you're like, actually, I, there's no way I'm going to get my act together to do that.

• 18:00Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  And then you can have a more appropriate goal, right? You can kind of use your imagination to figure out which goals are appropriate.

• 18:06Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think of, we were talking about testing the stoic ideas like in the laboratory. Person who did that most recently is Stockdale. Stockdale gets a graduate degree in ancient philosophy at Stanford. The Navy sends him and then he gets thrown into a real Stanford prison experiment.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  To be fair, most psychologists don't go as hardcore as Stockdale, but yeah.

• 18:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And there he's basically testing a lot of these ideas. He's also really well steeped in the sort of literature as well. But what I think is fascinating is they asked him after, you know, who had the hardest time? And he said it was the optimists because there was this sense that they would get out by the, they, they were always falling for the, hey, by Christmas or, you know, news stories would trickle back to them or they'd hear things in letters, you know, and arms justice is coming. And then when that wouldn't happen, they were crushed. And what's interesting in his memoirs, which obviously he wrote after the fact, but you can even see it in some of the letters he wrote at the time. He kept saying like, it's going to be at least another two years. It's going to be at least like, he was, as it turned out, underestimating how long it would take.

• 19:08Ryan Holiday?

  But he was not at all convinced that this would be happen quickly. And so there's something about optimism that can set you up to be crushed.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:17Ryan Holiday?

  By a world you don't control.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Yes. Because again, what our mind is doing is it's setting up these reference points.

• 19:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  And if we set up a reference point like by Christmas, everything's going to be great and it's going to be perfect and we don't get there.

• 19:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  You know, we feel terrible, even if objectively, we probably could have made it. I mean, we're talking about terrible Vietnamese prisons, probably, you know, bad, extreme case. But the idea is if you set your reference point too high, then even getting the second best possible thing, you know, feels, feels kind of crappy. Here's another one of my like favorite psych reference point studies. So researchers analyze people's smiles on the Olympic medal stand, right? And I just, who's happiest, right? So you look at the gold medalist, he's that person, you know, best in the world, really happy. What's going on with the silver medalist? Turns out they're not showing expressions of happiness. They're showing expressions of things like grief, contempt, deep sadness. And that's because like, you know, their reference point was like, I almost got gold. So they're objectively second best in the world, but feeling really crappy about it.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  That kind of makes sense, but the reason I love this study is they also analyze the smiles of the bronze medalist, right?

• 20:17Ryan Holiday?

  Happy to be there.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  They're so happy to be there. In fact, in some cases, their smiles are bigger than the gold medalist because like, oh my God, my alternative, my negative visualization is like, I almost didn't get up here.

• 20:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  At all. And that study has always been really powerful to me.

• 20:30Ryan Holiday?

  And I love that because I think there's a Seinfeld bit about that that predates the study.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 20:35Ryan Holiday?

  He sort of intuited it just as a, as a student of human nature. And that's the best studies confirm kind of what we obviously know, or it confirms like the opposite of what we think we know. But that one, so he nails, that's exactly what it is.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Jerry Seinfeld was such a great psychologist in so many, so many different ways. Yeah.

• 20:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I think for me, the, the Memento Mori thing is it's not that you are going to die tomorrow, but that you could.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:02Ryan Holiday?

  And the goodness puts a, a level of uncertainty and then it, it forces you to make some decisions. I think that's kind of how I think about it.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  That's right. And I think those decisions ultimately are ones that make us a lot happier, right? The decisions are usually to be a little bit more present, to not fall for the like, you know, low value, you know, dopamine hit in the current parlance, even though it's not really a dopamine hit, but like, like just a kind of low value, quick, like I'm looking at my phone rather than hanging out with a kid right before he goes to bed, right? And those changes matter a lot. Those changes matter a lot for our moment to moment happiness, but I think those changes matter a lot for really a Appreciating the stuff we have in life, which again, you know, as the Stoics so lovingly pointed out, like is not guaranteed at any point.

• 21:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, the, the like, hey, should we extend the vacation one day? Or, hey, should I blow off work and go spend an extra bit of time for this first? Should I take this phone call? It's the, it could be the last time that you get that thing.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 21:56Ryan Holiday?

  And so you should probably seize it while it's here. That is, I think, just a real practical way of momentum. Helps you make better day to day decisions.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  It also changes our time horizon, right? Like psychologists often worry about these cases of myopia, right? Where you're not saving enough, you're not eating healthy enough, you're not protecting your future self. I, from a happiness standpoint, worry a lot about the opposite, which is hyperopia, which is like, we're constantly saying, I'm doing something for my future self, right? But we both get our future self wrong. And sometimes like the future isn't guaranteed. So, you know, take the reward, take that fun thing now, you know? You know, how many times like do people not end up spending their frequent flyer miles and they expire? Or you know, buy this nice bottle of wine that you and your partner are gonna have one day? And then you finally find it and it's like corked or something, right?

• 22:40Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  I feel like we're constantly in danger of corking our lives.

• 22:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Even in these local domains. I mean, I've heard you use the example of your, you know, kids going to bed and that, you know, Stoic mantra, helping you notice and be present. What would you be doing if you weren't being present? Well, you'd probably be checking an email for something like future you was trying to get some more.

• 22:57Ryan Holiday?

  Not important at all.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 22:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  And so fighting our hyperopia and making sure, you know, we're prioritizing things in the present so that we get the right future benefit, I think is important.

• 23:08Ryan Holiday?

  I've never met someone who's not saving for retirement, not taking care of themselves because they have philosophically worked themselves into that position.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:17Ryan Holiday?

  They're not doing that because they're just not responsible. It's not a philosophical point of view. I do think this is a trouble with some philosophy and some people, people like, they, they try to like overthink it. And for these edge cases that aren't real or would affect such a minority of the, it's like, it's like people don't want to work out because they don't want to be too fit.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:37Ryan Holiday?

  You're, you're not gonna get there, don't worry about it, you know? And it's like, you know, if everyone actually put in this ancient philosophical practice, social security would go bankrupt. And it's like, no, okay. First off, it's automatically taken out of everyone's account. It's not a choice, that's why. But like, no, the people that are not doing it are, are doing it for other irresponsible reasons, not for an extreme philosophical principle.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I do feel like hyperopia is one of the, you know, people who are a little philosophically informed are thinking about how to live a good life. They're often the ones that are pretty good at like discounting, right? Like, you know, withholding. But then if you do that too much, you know, again, none of us know when our moment is in the moment. It's just a reminder of like, could be tonight.

• 24:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  What I want to do different if it was.

• 24:20Ryan Holiday?

  Well, how many of these people that are obsessed with sort of radical life extension have a life worth extending? Seneca talks about this story about this emperor, this criminal sort of begging to be spared, like, don't put me to death. And, and he says, oh, you're really alive. That's what the emperor says to him. He's like, you, you have wasted your life. You're a shitty person doing shitty things. And now you're begging to be spared. To do what? So you can go back to your life of crime? This is not a statement on the justice of the death penalty. The point is, when I look at the life that these people are trying to extend. I'm like, what? You're living like a monk, but not in a philosophical way.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yes, in a life of getting, you know, random injections and you can't hang out with people because when you hang out with people, you're going to have a drink or go out and have some food. You're going to eat real food.

• 25:06Ryan Holiday?

  Because you're worried about this. Like, what you're doing is stripping all the reasons for existence out of existence to then prolong the existence. So maybe in the future, you'll someday be happy. You could be happy now.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  And I think they're getting the evidence wrong. I think a lot of the evidence for that form of longevity comes from like, I don't know, supplement research or like what. But if you look psychologically at the kinds of things that extend longevity, it is happiness in the moment. Your social connections, right? The good that you're doing in the world, the sense of purpose and value, right? These are the things that extend life when you're faced with terminal illnesses and so on. And so it's like, I think they're doing it for the wrong reasons. They're going to get a long life that's not very valuable. But I also think they're missing out. If really what your goal was longevity, you might actually just want a happy life in the moment because that would work for you.

• 25:47Ryan Holiday?

  Have you ever talked to someone who's really old, like 90 to 100 or whatever? I've talked to many of them. And first off, they don't talk about being old. They don't talk about wanting to live longer. And they're not even particularly pumped that they're still alive, to be perfectly honest. I don't mean like their life is depressing. But, but one of the striking things about someone you meet, anyone over 100, they are not clinging to life.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:09Ryan Holiday?

  They are not like, I hope I make it to 112. I need two more years to get this stuff done. What they actually are is day to day. And like, I knew this guy, Richard Overton in Austin, he was 112. And I asked him if he takes it day by day. And he said, at my age, you take it day by night. He's like, look, I just, if I live through the evening, if I wake up tomorrow, that's like defying the odds once again. In fact, it can sometimes be painful. If you love these people, they're like, I'm ready to go. And you're like, don't say that.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:39Ryan Holiday?

  Because you're not ready for them to go.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:41Ryan Holiday?

  But they have gotten to a place where life is no longer so precious to them. And that's probably part of it. But it's just interesting to me that when you talk to the people who have, it's like, I guess this is also true for wealth. When you, you talk to the people who have it, they're like, it's not that great. I'd trade it for X, Y, or Z. And then the, the people that are obsessed with life expectancy are often neglecting the present moment at the expense of some optimized future.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And ultimately, like, when you get there, you might be happier than you think, no matter what you optimized, right? I think this is another stunning thing is that as people, as people get older, but specifically as people get closer to death, they wind up being more positive rather than less. And one of the cute studies that looked at this, I mean, just talking about a structural issue that we should, you know, talk about and fight about, but it looked at people on death row, right? Where for older individuals, probably they're getting closer to that last moment, but we don't know when it's going to be. Unfortunately, with individuals on death row, we can measure it. And so researchers look at people's journals, their expressions and things as they get closer. And rather than getting more negative, they actually get substantially more positive.

• 27:46Ryan Holiday?

  Because the anger, the frustration, the fear, it just dissipates because what's the point?

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're working out, right? I think we don't actually know why it is, but it seems like psychologically what happens is you wind up kind of happier. And if you look at, uh, kind of death row notes, because often people will write, you know, know about their situation, whatever, like way more strongly, like two to one strongly positive words and other oriented words, like kindness and their connection and the meaning they've gotten and so on. Like, it's not like me.

• 28:13Ryan Holiday?

  It probably turns down the noise on the trivial shit. They're not like, this guy stole this thing from my bunk, you know, like the, just the things you're holding on to when there's an eternity. There's a story Lincoln tells, um, this guy in his town who hated this other guy. They hated each other and he finds out he has some terminal illness. And, uh, so he reaches out and he says, I want to make amends. And so the guy comes in, he sees him and they make amends. And, uh, as the former enemy is leaving, he says, hey, I just want you to know if I survive this, the grudge is back.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  It's back.

• 28:47Ryan Holiday?

  There's something about the silliness of what we cling to that the ephemerality of life renders insignificant. And I imagine whether you're sitting on death row, you just found out you have cancer, or you're 95, you're just like, nah.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the benefits of awful situations, like finding out you have a terminal illness, or going through terrible trauma, or cancer scare, or something is like, you wind up more positive, more likely to kind of drop the BS. There's lots of evidence for what researchers call post-traumatic growth, which is kind of just what it sounds like, right? You go through this traumatic experience and you're like, I feel more connected to my purpose. I feel more connected to other people. I feel it's much easier to kind of do, you know, what the Stoics said a lot about, which is like, just don't deal with the, you know, just drop the boring stuff, right? And that seems to come naturally when you face something kind of existential in this rich way.

• 29:39Ryan Holiday?

  To me, the essence of wisdom is like knowing what matters and what doesn't matter. And mental more is obviously a shortcut to like, the ultimate wisdom of like, hey, basically, nothing matters except this present moment and the people you love. But just, yeah, the faster and better you can get at being like, I have no control over that. It doesn't matter. Like Seneca talks about paying the taxes of life gladly.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:02Ryan Holiday?

  I posted, we posted this on Daily Stoic like every April 15. And the irony of the people who get angry and think it's making a political point and they go, IRS, you know, taxation is theft. And it's like, no, he's saying that taxes are an unavoidable part of life, not just from the government, but like delays or attacks on travel, rainy days are attacks on, you know, living in the tropics, right? Like they're just, every rose has its thorn. That's what he's saying. And I think the element of what philosophy is supposed to get you to, what wisdom and sort of these practices, okay, this is just a fact. This is just a thing. And my opinion about it doesn't matter. Fighting about it doesn't matter. I just accept it and move on. And that's how you know you're making

• 30:46Ryan Holiday?

  progress is the less hung up and resentful and. Bent out of shape you are about those things that just don't matter or are inalterable.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  And I think if you understand a little bit about the psychology, you can realize that like, not only do you have some agency in that, but there's learning that goes on, right? There's growth, right? If you take this mindset of like, I'm not going to let the BS destroy me. Then when the BS shows up, you're like, oh, hang on. This is my time to level up. Like, this is some really good BS to like, you know, achieve my calm and so on. And that, reading the Stoics, has been kind of a game changer for me is to remember that when, when the tax shows up, you're like, oh, good thing. This is how I build up my like, life tax resilience. And this is actually good. This is a chance for me to like, show my metal or something. And I think that kind of stance can be really powerful because it means you almost, not only are you like, I'm just accepting of the BS when it shows up. You're almost like, bring it.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  You know, I go to the airport and I'm like, is this going to be a like, when you go to the bath situation? Like, let's, you know, you know, yeah.

• 31:45Ryan Holiday?

  I remember when I moved to New York, a friend who'd lived there a long time, he's like, look, the secret to New York is you gotta, you gotta understand that it costs what it costs. You come from somewhere else, you're like, this is insanely expensive. This is insanely dirty. You just have all these objections that this isn't how it should be. And he was basically saying like, look, if you're going to go out for drinks in New York City, it's going to cost a lot of money. If you're going to go out to breakfast, your apartment's going to, that's just what it is. And the sooner you accept that, and he wasn't making a financial point. He was saying, he was saying like, don't, don't add on top of this resentment and bafflement and, and.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Shock, like what, like.

• 32:21Ryan Holiday?

  And don't spend a ton of energy trying to think you can beat the system. It costs what it costs. And I, to me, that's like, just a really basic philosophical, like, life is what it is. People are people. When you go to the baths, expect this thing, that's what it is. And that was true in ancient Rome, it was true in ancient Greece, it was true in this or that dynasty in China. It's just how it is.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  It's just how it is.

• 32:43Ryan Holiday?

  The sooner you go, it costs what it costs, I'm just going to pay it and I'm going to pay it gladly, the happier you can be as a person.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  And this, I think, is where imagination can help us because you can help yourself remember that, ooh, this is a situation coming up where like, it's a bath situation. My husband's a philosopher also. Stoic stan like me and he constantly is reminding me like this is a bath situation. He lives in the Midwest, which means we're constantly flying through O'Hare Airport. And I think like, you know, Epictetus wasn't talking about O'Hare Airport, but he could have been when he was talking about the baths. And like, literally when we, when I'm about to book a flight and I'm like, here's our labor in O'Hare. My husband will be like, remember we go to the baths, like when you go to O'Hare, flights get canceled, there is snow. And you just have to, and I'm like, oh yeah, it's a bad situation.

• 33:24Ryan Holiday?

  I flew through O'Hare a week and a half ago. And even though as I was looking at the flight on FlightAware, it's like, average flights out of O'Hare are 32 minutes delayed, right? And I get there and I was flying from Dubai. And so it's like, all I wanted to do was get home, you know, it's like the last two and a half hour leg. And get there, board the plane, immediate 32 minute delay. And I'm surprised by it. I'm like, what? You know, and it's like, no, no, they told you on average, this was going to happen. It could actually be worse, that it was almost certainly not going to be better. And here you are, you have the information, you know what O'Hare is like, and you know what O'Hare is like right now.

• 34:07Ryan Holiday?

  And then you're disappointed, caught off guard, and you are like frustrated as if something's being done to you, as if it's not being done to everyone. And they didn't warn you in advance.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. But for me, that advanced simulation, when I'm like, I'm going to, you know, we're here in Texas having this conversation. I'm in Austin, the relative to the Northeast, there's just a lot of traffic. There's a lot of like, you're just gonna not go very far and you're gonna sit in traffic. And I just have to, when you're in Austin, you just, you know, do what.

• 34:35Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you go, hey, at least it's not Sao Paulo or something, right?

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:38Ryan Holiday?

  But the perspective goes is, hey, would you rather it be canceled?

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yes. And that, and that moment of negative, like recognizing you have the agency to pick a different reference point is so, so powerful. Couple of years ago, broke my knee on the ice for the second time. So I broke my knee on the ice first time and then a few years later broke my knee again. And it was like, right at the beginning of this very busy period of my life and I was so bummed out about it. And I was like, this is a time for the Stoics. And I picked up Bill Irvine, the philosopher, I think you've had him on the show, his book, Stoic Challenge. And he was like, you know, this is. Challenge, but the book is awesome because it goes through like, you know, you broke your leg. I was like, well, that happened to me like bummer. But then he's like, but you could be, you know, blind, like you could have like had your leg chopped off. You could be locked in, right? Where like, you know, you literally can't communicate with anybody except blinking your eyes and you're drooling.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, that's knee is great. I can deal with knee. It's like, and so just having that power, like taking the agency to remember that you can find this reference point that makes you feel not that bad.

• 35:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  That for me has been a real game changer.

• 35:38Ryan Holiday?

  Well, Epictetus said, you know, we choose which handle we're going to grab, that every situation has two handles. And I actually, I don't disagree with the Stoics too much, but I would say actually every situation has an infinite number of handles. And you get to choose which one you're going to go. So, hey, it's broke your knee instead of, you know, an amputation. That's one. The other is what are the fucking chances that I broke my knee twice?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:00Ryan Holiday?

  The same way. Isn't this hilarious? You know?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:03Ryan Holiday?

  There's an infinite number.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  The Stoics talk about humor a lot because I feel like that's where my mind goes to with some of these negative visualizations, but I don't see that as much.

• 36:11Ryan Holiday?

  Well, Seneca says that there's two schools of thought. He says there's Democritus, who basically despaired and cried over the awfulness of life and Herakles who laughed at it. And which, which are you going to choose? So again, that's the handle, right? You're going to choose the depressing cynical handle? Are you going to, you know, choose the, the absurdity laughter handle? We know that one of the Stoics, Chrysippus, dies of laughter. He's actually on the Wikipedia page for unusual deaths. And the joke is, he was sitting on his front porch and a donkey runs away from its owner and runs up and begins eating like figs out of his garden. And Chrysippus says, you should get that donkey some wine to wash down those figs.

• 36:52Ryan Holiday?

  And then starts to laugh at his own joke, which as I do not understand, like I don't get the joke. What does it mean? And he laughs so hard that he dies.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  That's beautiful.

• 37:01Ryan Holiday?

  Which I love because first off, we have this idea of the humorless Stoics.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:06Ryan Holiday?

  And then in and of itself is funny.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:09Ryan Holiday?

  What a ridiculous way to die.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Like probably if you would have told him that was how he's gonna die, he was like, "That's beautiful. It's a legacy."

• 37:15Ryan Holiday?

  And it's kind of a memento mori thing too. Like, you know, you look at like famous people who died on the toilet or, you know, like, like you think life is so dignified and in your control and you're gonna die with your boots on. And it's like, actually, no, you're gonna sneeze too hard and have a stroke, you know? Like, the human body is so lame and stupid and you're not any bit above that.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And when you ultimately look at that, it's kind of funny, right? It's kind of, it's like connects you with everything, right?

• 37:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. You see like, oh, there's a deer got an antler stuck in a tree. They'll find, or have you ever seen where it's like two, like a deer with another deer's head?

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

• 37:51Ryan Holiday?

  And you're just like, that's so dumb. And then you're like, like, human history isn't full of dumber ways that we've killed each other or accidentally killed ourselves, you know? It's just like, life is pathetic in that way.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Recognizing that humor can be part of your agency, I think, is really, really, really powerful.

• 38:10Ryan Holiday?

  Do you feel like the Stoics didn't talk about happiness enough?

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I mean, their whole point was getting to a happy life. I think they didn't define it that much because I think they were kind of like, what you want is like not to be bothered by the BS of life. Like, I think they didn't state that out because they just thought it was so self-aware.

• 38:24Ryan Holiday?

  Let's eliminate all the pointless causes of unhappiness.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, yeah. And ultimately, I think, you know, they're channeling something I think is really important in the happiness science, which is like, even in extreme circumstances, like, it doesn't define your happiness in the way that you think, right? And all the good stuff definitely doesn't define your happiness. Like, getting more money, getting more prestige, that stuff, it doesn't make you happier. And I think the Stoics were on to that, but also for a different reason, which is like, at any point, it could go away, right? And so if you're going for the, and you tend not to have control over that stuff as much, right? So, leading a life where you really don't want to be perturbed, just go for the stuff that you can control and you make it much easier on yourself.

• 39:02Ryan Holiday?

  Well, Cicero's question was like, can you be happy on the rack?

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:05Ryan Holiday?

  And that seems like, you know, is that like a philosophical question like the trolley problem? And then it's like, well, this dude did get his head and hands chopped off.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:13Ryan Holiday?

  By a vindictive, you know, enemy. So it wasn't so abstract. Like, he did mean, can you be happy when you're grieving the loss of a child? Can you be happy when your, your government has fallen? Can you be happy when you're in exile? I do think the Stoics specifically had a more robust and resilient happiness in mind. They weren't talking about laughter and fun so much as, it's not smiling happiness, but it's something more profound.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  It's eudaimonia, right? They're like stealing from these other ancient concepts. So it's really about kind of having a flourishing life. And, but I think the difference of a flourishing life for the Stoics is like, okay, have the flourishing life and do all the good valuable moral things, but also don't let the BS get you down.

• 39:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Like, don't experience the perturbations. If we could just get, or just not get rid of the negative emotions, but use them in ways to get you towards your values and regulate them as quickly as possible. In part because like you can, right? And so I think what the Stoics are really focused on, or at least my read of the Stoics is focused on, is like regulating that negative emotion so that you feel happy kind of in your life. Modern day psychologists tend to think about happiness as having these two parts, sort of being happy in your life. So ideally lots of positive emotion, the laughter and so on, but less negative emotion, not none, but less negative emotion. And then second, being happy with your life, which is kind of like, you think your life is going well, it has value, it has purpose.

• 40:36Ryan Holiday?

  Having enough.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Having enough, yeah.

• 40:38Ryan Holiday?

  Not needing some conditional future thing to go a certain way to become happy then, but you have it now.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think the Stoics tapped into both of these. Often psychologists talk about these two parts as sort of the affective part of happiness, how your life feels, versus the cognitive part of happiness, how you think your life is going.

• 40:54Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  And I think the Stoics wanted to kind of achieve both, right? You regulate your negative emotions, you come up with all these strategies to have control over them, but you also have control over your thoughts and how you think it's going, right? And so even in a bad situation, you can think it's going well because you have a mechanism of appreciating it.

• 41:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's, um, it's tough, though.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  It's tough, though.

• 41:14Ryan Holiday?

  How many, how many powerful, successful, important people would be?

• 41:19Ryan Holiday?

  Would we say we're happy?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Very few, right?

• 41:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  But I think the Stoics would be like, yep, because like they're going after all these things that they ultimately can't control, right?

• 41:29Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  But I think also the Stoics, so that's another big principle of the happiness science. Like, you can definitely become happier. You can't become infinitely happier. Like, most of the modal size of most of the effects in the field are about 10%. Dan Harris has this idea of 10% happier.

• 41:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  It's really, it's really built on the evidence because you can go up about a point on a 10-point happiness scale.

• 41:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  What most of these interventions do, right? So you can get happier, but ultimately it takes some work.

• 41:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  And I think those Stoics knew about, you know, I mean, some of the most painful passages in the Stoics for me are when they're just like laying out like, yeah, you know, your, your kid could go and you gotta like, just be like, yep, he didn't belong to me anyway. And you're like, oh.

• 42:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  But like, yeah, you know, it didn't belong to me. So if I really want to be happy, I just have to not, I have to, you know, the day after your spouse dies, you're like, yeah, I'm not perturbed because my goal is to live unperturbed. And you're like, oh, man, that's rough. That takes a lot of work.

• 42:32Ryan Holiday?

  It's a lot to ask. It's a bit much to be like, you know, Marx's Realist's meditation is a little depressing. It's like, okay, this guy was the most powerful person in the world.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:42Ryan Holiday?

  He spent his whole reign at war. There was a flood, there was a famine, there was a coup attempt. Some historians think his wife was repeatedly unfaithful. He buried more than half of his children. He lost his father as a young man. You know, just think of the conniving, awful, disingenuous people he would have had to deal with on a day-to-day basis. And by the way, what he really liked was books and he never had a time. Like, it's a lot to be like, well, you know, he could have been more fun. Like, that this guy got out of bed in the morning was a profound statement about his happiness and hopefulness and, you know, sort of character and resilience. Like, I think it would have wrecked most people.

• 43:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's insane that he, he didn't kill himself, to be quite honest. Like, How did he not stagger under those blows? And I would say he probably did. But there was some fundamental love of life and the day to day that kept him going.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  And I think that this, you know, this idea of a fundamental love of life and the day to day that keeps you going is so powerful, right? In the happiness space, folks often talk about gratitude. I think it can sometimes sound cheesy. I wish I had better marketing.

• 43:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  I like to talk often about delights.

• 43:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Which are just kind of just like things in the world that you like delight. Like it's just, you know, sunny out, this cat's here and is really cute, you know? I mean, morning coffee has a little swirl in it and that's funny. It's like, oh, delight.

• 44:06Ryan Holiday?

  But that's some of the best writing, the meditations.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:09Ryan Holiday?

  He's talking about like a stalk of grain bending under its own weight. He talks about the brow of a lion. My favorite delight when he talks about the way that you put a loaf of bread in the oven and when it comes out, it has this crack on the top. And he's like, nobody knows why, and it wasn't on purpose, but it's sort of pretty. And just like the poet's eye for the mundane extraordinariness of life.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think, you know, what they're tapping into is a positive emotion that we know is super important for happiness. We don't talk about a lot, which is emotion of awe.

• 44:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Right? It's kind of something bigger than you. It's kind of like, you don't really understand it. So it kind of makes you feel a little bit weird. And I think that Stoics saw that level of awe in so many things, including the moral goodness of other people, right? This guy, Dacher Keltner at UC Berkeley, does a lot of studies of awe. And he kind of goes through the different categories where we experience awe. Like you think it's like, you know, like some spiritual moment or taking psychedelics.

• 45:05Ryan Holiday?

  Grand Canyon.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  The Grand Canyon. And he's like, most of the ones that normal people report on a day to day are the moral goodness of other people.

• 45:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Just like somebody did something really amazing and good, or somebody achieved some really interesting thing, like, and I think this-

• 45:19Ryan Holiday?

  You lose a pair of sunglasses and they're at the lost and found.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, somebody turn them in. Or, you know, you're walking and somebody drops their ID and you see someone else pick up the ID for them. And you're like, that's just-

• 45:28Ryan Holiday?

  You see someone help a mom down a flight of stairs, like carry the stroller or whatever. You know, like strangers when you're just like, oh, holding the door open. Yes.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're just kind of helpers around. And I think that the Stoics were looking for those moments of moral goodness. They wanted to experience them themselves and be the kind of person that did that stuff. But they also were like, open to noticing it. Plus the cracks on the bread, right? The little tiny, little wonderful delights in the world.

• 45:52Ryan Holiday?

  You were saying awe. It's like, how do you find awe in an awful world?

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:57Ryan Holiday?

  Like not, not, hey, look, if you retreat to a monastery and you live in the beautiful green hills of China, you know, open up the window and be like, wow, this is amazing. That's, that's one thing. And it's like, I'm gonna go to the beach this weekend. It's gonna be wonderful. The ocean is the ocean. But it's, can you find the awe in the delayed flight on the way there?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:18Ryan Holiday?

  That this is the miracle of flight.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:20Ryan Holiday?

  And, you know, the rude person, hey, that we're not like stabbing each other to death is actually pretty incredible. The coordination of all of this. And, you know, can you find it in the, in the not so awesome things?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:33Ryan Holiday?

  That's where the work is.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  The anthropologist Sarah Hurdie, who studies primates and primate interactions, has this essay about getting off a flight where everybody stands up and everybody's like pissy and kind of hungry. And she's like, if this was any other species, like, she literally says, no one would leave with their testicles. Like, testicles would just be all over this Delta flight, like on the chairs and stuff.

• 46:54Ryan Holiday?

  They'd be killing each other.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  We'd be killing each other. And she's like, it is amazing that we have one, that we get to be in one of the few species that, that all that happens is somebody says a nasty thing to the flight attendant.

• 47:03Ryan Holiday?

  By and large cooperate and cling to each other.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  So even in like the O'Hare terribleness, you can find, you know, these moments of awe. But as we were just saying, it's hard. And it's hard in part because our mind is built with this negativity bias. We instantly go to the terrible things. It takes no work whatsoever to find like how mad I am about O'Hare, the flight's delayed, right? But it takes some work to notice the neutral stuff or the good stuff. But this is what I think that the kind of training and the practice is about, right? Is that you, you build up the ability to do that better and better.

• 47:32Ryan Holiday?

  Don't you think that's the challenge of our time, though? It's like, how do you find in so much awfulness? How, how do you not let miserable, awful people, which we see on the headlines or in the headlines?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Literally after it.

• 47:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I could pick up my phone right now and change my mood negatively if I wanted to. How do you not let that make you miserable? How do you not, like, the Stoics talk about the best revenge is to not be like that? How do you find happiness in profoundly unhappy times? That's the challenge.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Well, one of the insights I had, because I think sometimes Sometimes also people think, an additional challenge of that is people think it's not moral to find happiness in those times, right? How can you be the person that's looking away when, you know, the economy's falling apart, the climate's falling apart, the world's falling apart? Like, you're a bad person if you're not, like, the idea of if you're not angry, you're not paying attention, right? But this winds up being an interesting empirical question for nerdy psychologists like me. Like, that has a certain hypothesis, which is like, if you're not violently angry and very perturbed in the stoic words about this, you're not doing anything about it.

• 48:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  And this guy, Konstantin Kusheev at Georgetown, has been studying this. He actually goes out and asks, like, who are the people who are, like, showing up at a protest, for example, for, like, say, Black Lives Matter or climate justice or something? And he finds it's actually the people who are experiencing the least negative emotion. And you kind of, when you reflect on it, you get that. You're like, oh, if I'm experiencing extreme negative emotion, like, I'm not getting out of bed. Like, I'm just under the duvet about, like, all the terrible things in the world.

• 48:55Ryan Holiday?

  There's a statement of hope to go to the protest.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Exactly. You think that there's some agency that you can take to fix it. And that, that, that set of findings has helped me a little bit because sometimes I kind of fall under that, like, how dare I not be upset at this? How dare I not be angry or sad or whatever? And that research suggests, like, actually, if you want the bandwidth to make a difference, you gotta go stoic and regulate some of your emotions so that you're noticing the bad things, but you're not affected, perturbed by them, right? And, and in theory, that's going to give you the psychological bandwidth to actually fix this stuff. So, so I've been helped by recognizing, like, oh, it's, it's not just not a bad thing to not be pissed off at all this stuff or participate in it to the point that it affects my emotions. It's actually the most effective thing I could do if what I want to do is act better.

• 49:39Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it all comes down to efficacy, right? Because if you are up against evil or powerful interests or intractable, you know, complex issues, the idea that you're going to bring your best self while you're caught up in the passions, as the Stoics would say, is preposterous. No, it's precisely here that you need to be the most calm, the most in command of yourself because they're not going to give you anything, right? They want you to be angry. That's actually, I mean, part of the media strategy, as they have disclosed, is this idea of flooding the zone with shit, making everyone confused and overwhelmed. Making them believe they're more powerful than they are, that the resistance is less powerful and the, you know, the powers that be are more powerful to make you think it's not possible,

• 50:22Ryan Holiday?

  that it's only going to get worse. And then you don't do anything. That's the whole point is to make you irrational. So you can't rationally solve for the actually somewhat solvable problems.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that, you know, what the research really shows is that we're just much better at solving these problems when we are not beset by our emotions. Right? I mean, I think this is the thing you forget that like, you know, there's this other cute study by my former colleague, Susan Nolan Huxema, where she looks at this idea that we sometimes assume that like, if I ruminate about this problem, I get really upset about it. If it's like really affecting me, then then I'll find a solution. Cause I think we have this, we're not like masochists and wanting to be so upset about stuff. I think we think that this is the right thing to do to get to a good solution. But she has people either ruminate about a particular problem. These are college students. So it's like, someone's not hanging out with you. It's like these problems that aren't, you know, world peace and these big things we're worried about. But she either has people ruminate about it, or just distract yourself. Just do something else to distract yourself when you're thinking about this problem. And then she has people go through

• 51:20Speaker 01

  optimal solutions. And she finds that people who are ruminating, people who are thinking about it, getting so upset about it, that actually came up with the worst solutions than somebody who just distracted themselves. And we're like, I'm not gonna. And so this is, this is a sort of strategy I've taken with the current news cycle where there's, it's one thing to be informed, but it's another to be like destroyed by this stuff. And I think that like, what you actually need to do to get informed is not, is not as much as we think. It's not being on social media every day. Like you're gonna hear about what's going on in 24 to 40 hours.

• 51:51Ryan Holiday?

  I don't need any more information to let me know that what they're doing is criminal, that it's cruel, that it's stupid, that it violates most of the laws of economics. Also, like I know this by now, right? Like, and this is also the fundamental idea from the ancients that character is fate. Like when you, like, even if some of the ideas were good, the people who are trying to execute them are bad people doing them for, you know, motivated by bad reasons. So I'm opposed. Right? So I don't need to follow this day to day. Like, sometimes it can be helpful to look back historically. Like if in 1964, you sort of actually put some thought into what was

• 52:31Ryan Holiday?

  happening in Vietnam and the bogus reasons we were there, you'd go, yeah, we have no business being here and everything we do there is, is wrong. You didn't need to then follow it day to day for the next seven or eight years to update your opinion. Your opinion was correct from the outset. Actually, you need, you could be organizing, you could be moving, you could, there's, you know, you could, you could be running for office. There's a bunch of things you could do, but reading the day to day news reports is only going to make you despair.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  And that was when it was day to day, right? The problem is we like, I mean, you know, a gift to you if you only look at the stuff like one day.

• 53:09Ryan Holiday?

  A daily newspaper. Oh, my God. That would be incredible.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, I often think about like, what would the Stoics think about what we are? You know, just like the clickbaity headlines designed to like steal your emotions. They would be like, what, what have you done?

• 53:24Ryan Holiday?

  Think about Mark Serris. He's the head of this empire. So all the news, all the important, he's, it's all his purview. He would look at your and my information diet and be like, how do you manage? And he was running an empire of 50 million people in which information was essential, right? And he'd be like, you're just getting minute to minute reports about like cabinet meetings. He'd be like, I mean, they tell me, like, I've been at the front for the last two years. They send me summaries and I read that. Like, it's insane how much information. And if you're not an intelligence operative or a hedge fund manager, chances are you are doing nothing with this information but torturing you. You want to get just enough and you want

• 54:06Ryan Holiday?

  to have rooted it enough in psychology and history and, you know, philosophy that you can know what's what. Like, you can know what's good, what's bad, what's cruel, what's immoral, etc. But you don't, I don't think you need, you don't need the minutes of these meetings. You're not in the cabinet.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think you need to notice how it's affecting you. This is why I always love, you know, stealing all the ancients and pulling them together. I think this was something that, you know, the Buddhists talked about a lot, right? Is this idea of noticing. Every time I pick up my phone and go on Blue Sky, I leave with my, you know, my chest clenched. I'm like, ready to scream. You know, my husband's talking, like, it's like, oh, that wasn't good. But I think sometimes these things happen, like, our emotions change so unconsciously, and then we can unconsciously affect other people. It's a real skill to be noticing what this stuff is doing to you. And so I think just notice, like, you know, did you get the information you wanted? Or is it?

• 55:01Ryan Holiday?

  Do you feel better after or worse?

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 55:05Ryan Holiday?

  I feel worse every time I do this. Why am I doing it over and over and over again, expecting to feel differently?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:11Ryan Holiday?

  And it's time to like, you know, what are the, I think, sitting down and going, hey, what parts of my information diet can I cut out? And again, that you have a duty to be an informed, participating citizen. But where is the proof that this is informing you?

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Or helping you participate.

• 55:29Ryan Holiday?

  Exactly.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 55:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Catherine Price, who's been on my podcast, The Happiness Lab, a bunch. She has this lovely book called How to Break Up With Your Phone, where she kind of argues you don't need to break up with your phone, but you need to take it like to couples counseling for kind of situations like this with the news. And she uses this acronym, she uses WWW whenever she tries to interact with her social media, which stands for what for, why now, and what else? Like, what was this for? Was there a purpose to it? Was I trying to check some factoid about what was happening in the news? Or was I just like sucked in, right? Why now? And this is a kind of mindfulness moment, like, what drew you in? Were you already a little anxious and that made you scroll even more? So you kind of, you know, created your own doom spiral?

• 56:05Ryan Holiday?

  Frustrated, tired, bored.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Word, right? Like, all these things that if we were, you know, following the Stoics, we'd just find some other way to notice and find some other way to deal with it. But the biggest one, what else, right? There's an opportunity cost. Whenever you're spending your limited time, you know, moving up to your eventual, you know, death, right? Like, doing this stuff. And like, what, you know, what else could you be doing with that time that might fit with your higher ideals and your values better? And the acronym has kind of helped me because sometimes I'll, you know, you probably do this too, you just find yourself with your phone in your hand, you're mid-stream, and you're like, wait, uh, WWW, like, I was being avoidant because I was avoiding some other problem and now I'm anxious about this other thing. And like, I could put this down and take a walk, or I could put this down and go talk to my husband or something.

• 56:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, my wife and I try to, like, when we see each other, you know, really getting sucked in the phone, we go, you don't want to be doing that.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Oh, that's good.

• 56:51Ryan Holiday?

  And then as soon as you kind of break the trance, you're like, oh, yeah. But I'm stuck, like, it was designed by the smartest people with the best technology. For the same reason the casino doesn't have clocks or windows, and you just need someone to snap you out of the hypnosis a little bit, and then you can make a, you can make a better new decision instead of just continuing the decision that you already made.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  I mean, that's another thing I'm constantly thinking about what the Stoics would think about. You know, we just talked about like the information overload that we're all experiencing, the kind of fire hose. How's it the Stoics would be fascinated by the trance, right? There's so much stuff now that sucks us into a trance. And I think, you know, the Buddhists had a different take on that, which is like, you want to be present and the trance is bad for that reason. I think the Stoics think the trance causes you to miss out on so many positive emotions and often is indirectly sucking you into lots of negative emotions, too.

• 57:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. Yeah, anything that like had power over you, they would have been very skeptical of. So you're like, I can't not do this thing. They'd be like, well.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta get away from that.

• 57:55Ryan Holiday?

  So you have the Momentum Mori ring. And then what's the other bracelet?

• 57:58Speaker 01

  So the other bracelet, which actually my producer, Ryan, is my co-writer for my podcast, The Happiness Lab, gave me is it's an arrow with two arrow points that goes around as a bracelet. Sometimes it stabs me because it's very sharp. But that's to remind me the parable of the second arrow, which comes from the Buddhist. So if you don't know it, Buddha is talking to his followers and he asks his followers, if you're walking down the street and someone shoots you with an arrow, is that bad? And the followers are like, yeah, it kind of seems like that sucks. Like, so Buddha says, okay, imagine you're walking down the street, someone shoots you with the first arrow, but then they also immediately after that shoot you with a second arrow, too. Is the second arrow, is that worse? And the followers are like, yeah, it sucks twice as much to get shot by a second arrow. So Buddha says, first arrow is the circumstances of life. That's your car doesn't start, that's you break your knee, that's your oh hair up and your flight's delayed. You don't have any control over that.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  That's the world shooting with the arrow. But the second arrow is usually the one you shoot yourself with. That's that I get really pissed off at the, you know, the delayed flight. I'm angry and I'm pissy at my husband when I break my knee or whatever it is. And he's like, you don't have any control over that first arrow, but the second arrow you are shooting yourself with. And in my case, in the worst moments, it's not just the second arrow, it's like a 16th and a 17th arrow. Because like, you know, I'd like, you know, somebody at work does something stupid. Hours later, I'm talking to a friend, I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe that person did that. And it's like, the person's action is done, this is hours later. And so it's a Buddhist, you know, parable in a Buddhist tradition, but I think it fits so much with the Stoics. It's like, the one arrow, let that go. Because like, you can't control it, you know, ignore it, deal with it.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  But the second arrow, it's on you. You definitely can control that one. And so for me, that's been really helpful is like, is this the first arrow or is this the second arrow? Sometimes my producer, Ryan, who gave me the thing, well, if I'm complaining about something over text, he's based in London, so we're often texting each other. He'll text me the archery emoji, archery emoji. And I'm like, okay, fair enough. Shut up. Moving on.

• 59:50Ryan Holiday?

  Well, Epictetus said, you know, it's not things that upset us, it's our opinion about things. And our opinion about things is the second arrow, right?

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 59:56Ryan Holiday?

  It happened. It is bad. It happened. I'm harmed by it. It happened because that person is an asshole and they purposely targeted me. That's the second arrow stuff. The, the story we tell ourselves about it. I'll never recover, etc.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  And it's so amazing just how differently you feel when you change the story. My father-in-law passed away recently and everything was discombobulated. And I was like, you know, we weren't doing stuff. And I found myself remembering that like, hey, this is a possibility in people's lives. People die. And, you know, was at like, you know, a parking lot or something and somebody like pulled into my space. And my instant reaction other than like that person jerk was whatever, like maybe a family member of theirs died. It was just like in the possibility space for me. And that just like changed my reaction to everything. Like instead of being pissy, I had like compassion. I'm like, oh my gosh, cut, cut in line, you know, do this thing. And that just feels so different. But it really was just like a slight change in the possibility space of which handle I was grabbing to interpret

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  this event. And you just realize that's possible for you all the time.

• 1:00:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. In a way, some of our grief is the second arrow. Not that we're sad that we lost them.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  This is the one I have to say. It's like, it's, I get it. I know the Stoics are right. But like, wow, is this one hard? Like your kid dies, you're like, well, it wasn't really mine in the first place. Moving on.

• 1:01:13Ryan Holiday?

  No, that's not what I mean. Cause I, I feel like the grief of just loss is unavoidable and a fact, right? I don't think any of the Stoics were like, oh, they were mortal when I met them. I don't think anyone's actually doing that, right? And I'm not sure it's healthy to do that. But the decision to say be haunted by the memory of this person is a loss on top of the loss. So while they were alive, every time you thought of them, it was positive, right?

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Ryan Holiday?

  And when you saw them, it was positive. And now they're gone. And, you know, you think of the anniversary of their death, or, you know, every, every once in a while, like, I think about how many dead people are on my phone?

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:53Ryan Holiday?

  Right? Because I type in the letter C and then, oh shit, I forgot. But the feeling of sad, like sadness, loss, bitterness, whatever, I could also feel joy and love and gratitude. And so there's this second, and Seneca talks about this in one of his consolation essays where he's like, do you think your father would want you

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:15Ryan Holiday?

  to break down in sadness every time you think of him? That would have been like, if, if as he was leaving life, he was like, by the way, your memory is going to haunt your daughter. Like, he'd be like, no, that's, so that's the worst thing. All anyone would want is to be remembered fondly and be a positive, ongoing sort of energy in your life. And that is, we don't have total control of that, especially right as it happens. But as time goes by, I think you get to choose whether, how you think about that memory and what that death means to you.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  And I think the Stoics were kind of hedging against a certain form of that grief, which is like, I didn't do right by that person. I didn't spend time with them, right? Like, in theory, they're hedging against the regret of what happened so that, you know, when a person you care about passes, you're like, I recognize they were mortal the whole time. No, I'm not grieving, but I don't regret what I did when they were alive. I spent the time that I could have spent with them. I invested as much, like, you know, I'm washing my hands of the regret part of it. And that, that does feel like a different way to grieve. I think-

• 1:03:21Ryan Holiday?

  And they're certainly not holding on to the grudge.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Ryan Holiday?

  They're dead. So like, I'm not sure they want you to be like, I should have called more. You know, they have, they have let that go. You probably can too.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. But if you do it in advance, then, then everybody, you know, then it's happy all the way through.

• 1:03:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. But yeah, the second arrow of like, okay, you lost them too soon. And now you feel guilty all the time.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:44Ryan Holiday?

  That, like, you did lose them too soon and you could have done better. But the decision to wake up today and feel like a piece of shit about it, that's the second arrow or third arrow, fourth arrow.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  That's right. And recognize the second arrow is on you. Like, it's a sort of, you know, like, two things, right?

• 1:04:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  This is in the second category. This is a thing that you can control. And it might be hard and it might take some work, but you actually can change your opinion about it.

• 1:04:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Fate took them from you, but you are taking this out on yourself.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. That's a very stoic way to reinterpret grief from the second arrow.

• 1:04:18Ryan Holiday?

  No, it's so beautiful how like, I do know there's a couple Stoic like archery lesson. It's, I mean, they just had the same technology and they were alive at the same time.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Well, I was wondering, like, it's just people getting shot with arrows all over the place in the Buddhist days. Like, what was going on in like these ancient times?

• 1:04:32Ryan Holiday?

  I know both the Stoics and the Buddhists use that like muddy water one. And so you're just like, even the metaphors are the same.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:39Ryan Holiday?

  Like, they're just coming on the same essential truths. And it's very rare that you come across any of the philosophical schools and you're like, this is something totally different than any of the others. And to go to the earlier point, this totally contradicts all the science about this subject.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Well, I was saying the Buddhists, there are these cases where I like the Buddhists better than the Stoics. Here's a case where I like the Stoics better than the Buddhists, which is that the Buddhists were like really into the idea of suffering. Not into it, like you should get it, just like it is inevitable, it is there, it is centered. And I think the Stoics were like, yeah, there's the perturbations, but like it's number two. Like it's, these are conceptually, these are two distinct categories. So whereas the Buddhists were like, essential is suffering, and then you got to do the stuff around it. The Stoics were like, I don't know, man, these are two categories and we could kind of think about them differently. And so that's always given me a little bit more hope.

• 1:05:28Ryan Holiday?

  I also think, you know, living in Western civilization, there's something about the Stoics that, that is not just familiar, but sort of practical in the sense where it's like, somebody's got to run for office.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Ryan Holiday?

  Somebody's got to man the sewers. You know, like, I think Buddhism is a more spiritual and sort of individualistic pursuit. And there's something about Stoic philosophy that is like, okay, but this will work for society.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:58Ryan Holiday?

  Not a, not a band of roving monks.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, the Stoics were like the OG like advice column, self-help. You know, like it was going to be like not in the posh, like, you know, like books and stuff. Like it was going to be in whatever the like tabloid magazine TikTok video at the time was going to be minus the terrible algorithmic stuff. But yeah.

• 1:06:15Ryan Holiday?

  I think the Buddhists and the cynics are closer to each other in the sense where they're like, this is all bullshit, man.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:21Ryan Holiday?

  You know? And the Stoics are like. A little, some of it is, but like.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Dude, you gotta get through your day, you know?

• 1:06:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, you, you have a kid and they're hungry, so how are you gonna feed them? You know, there's just like, there's a sort of, this is life. This is this human organism we were born into and we have to figure out how to operate collectively in this city that we live in.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  And there's like positive emotion on the other side of that, right? There's like these kind of opportunities for growth or humor and all these things we were talking about.

• 1:06:51Ryan Holiday?

  Well, this is awesome. You want to check out some books real fast?

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, please, let's do it.

• 1:07:00Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.