Paris Pastry Pairings, Chicago Deep Dish Pizza Tips, and Behind the Scenes of Joe’s New Restaurant Opening

Joe is set to open his newest restaurant, Bar Tutto, and Adrienne asks him all about what it takes to go from concept to reality with a new establishment. He takes us behind the scenes to share all the things you don’t hear about when a restaurant gets started. Plus, we discuss: The great Paris pastry debate: which French treat do you pair with your coffee? Fork It or Forget It: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza Hiring 80+ people in a matter of weeks The ever-evolving menu of a new restaurant (and the influence of seasonality) Building a kitchen, the joy of friends & family dinner, and preparing for first service Walk In Confession: Joe’s story of plating for 350 James Beard guests and almost not making it Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Welcome back to another episode of The Chef's Cut. I am Adrienne Cheatham.

• 0:05Joe Flamm?

  And I am Joe Flamm. Age, what are we getting into today?

• 0:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, today we are going to talk about our go-to baked goods to go with coffee in the morning when we want a little treat. We're going to dish on deep dish pizza. We're going to talk about your new restaurant Bartuto and what goes on behind the scenes for a restaurant opening. Then we're going to have a walk-in confession where you are talking about pushing it to the limit, plating 350 portions and just making it. This is one for the books, Joe.

• 0:39Joe Flamm?

  Nah, couldn't be me, Age. Let's get into it.

• 0:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Welcome back to another episode of The Chef's Cut. I'm Adrienne Cheatham.

• 0:49Joe Flamm?

  And I am Joe Flamm. Age, great to see you in beautiful Paris.

• 0:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, back in Paris. You know, it's like, it's like

• 0:58Joe Flamm?

  It's like you never left, you know what I mean? It's just like running them streets.

• 1:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm here more than New York these days, more than Miami.

• 1:04Joe Flamm?

  So let me ask you something then, as you're walking around the streets of Paris, living your best French girl lifestyle. Something I want to know for a little personal question of the day was when you go get that coffee in the morning in Paris, what's your go-to? Kind of like, if you want like a little something with it. I'm not talking about like a breakfast sandwich. I'm talking about like a little, little, little sweet treat, a little

• 1:29Joe Flamm?

  if you will, like what's your, what's your go-to with your, with your coffee in the morning in Paris?

• 1:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  So that's so funny.

• 1:36Joe Flamm?

  All those great bakeries.

• 1:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  There's so many, and I feel like so many cities now have amazing bakeries. So I, I have two, two things that are my absolute go-to, no matter what city I'm in, I'm getting a black coffee and I'm getting either, okay, judge me, don't judge me, whatever, a plain butter croissant, or if I want something with a little bit of sweetness, I'm going panel raisin.

• 2:04Joe Flamm?

  Like the croissant with raisins in it?

• 2:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, but it's like it's rolled this way. So it looks like a circle, like a flat circle. And it's like, it's got the swirl with raisins and like a little bit of pastry cream or something.

• 2:16Joe Flamm?

  Absolutely destroyed for that one.

• 2:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  But it's delicious.

• 2:20Joe Flamm?

  Picking the raisin pastry. It's just like, I'm not saying I'm against it, but I'm just saying like, this is like the Adrian Cheatham chart of like really old people shit I like. This is like.

• 2:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's like this. It reminds me of the.

• 2:33Joe Flamm?

  I'll have a raisin pastry and an extra hot cup of coffee, sweetheart. Thank you.

• 2:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  I do call people sweetheart or young lady.

• 2:41Joe Flamm?

  Come here back when it was Rosenberg's and they're like, all right, lady, fucking just keep moving in the line like.

• 2:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh yeah, that's me. It reminds me of the sun made raisin bread, the cinnamon swirl raisin bread from when I was a kid.

• 2:55Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, no, that's awesome. I love that shit.

• 2:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's crunchy. It's creamy in the center. It's not too sweet and I like to unroll it. So I get the crunchy bits and then I work my way into the soft center.

• 3:05Joe Flamm?

  Destroy the table you're sitting at by getting like your shit everywhere.

• 3:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm actually like, I don't, I can't sit down and eat these. If I'm getting a treat with my coffee, like a croissant or the raisin roll thing, um, I'm walking. It's rare that I'm sitting down to have my coffee and my croissant. Like I like to be walking through the streets, peeling it. You shake the crumbs off on the sidewalk, little pigeons flutter around and come and get them.

• 3:31Joe Flamm?

  Italians would never. That's so barbaric. You know what I mean? Like that's one of my favorite things about Italy is like when you go there and you have espresso, like, you know, espresso to go is like really not a thing. It's like.

• 3:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, it's not a thing in Paris either.

• 3:45Joe Flamm?

  You're supposed to sit there and have it. And so if you're having, you know, a croissant or a cornetto, you know, as they call it with it. Like you sit there and have it. Like it's not meant to be taken away. It's like you stand there. Cause you know, Italians are not in a rush. Uh, so it's just like. You know what I mean? It's like, of course, I'm gonna just stand here and have coffee and like chop it up with people for 10 minutes and then I can begin my day.

• 4:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, but that's 10 minutes. I could be on my walk to either pick up some, you know, go to the fish store, pick up some veg, be in the kitchen cooking.

• 4:18Joe Flamm?

  Right. You leave, you gotta leave 10 minutes earlier.

• 4:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, I can't, I can't. But what about you, Joe Flamm? What is your, if you're gonna get a treat to go with your coffee, what is your go to coffee treat?

• 4:31Joe Flamm?

  So I will say like when I, I've only been to Paris once, but when I was there, every morning I'd get up and I would go to a different bakery and get a croissant, just plain croissant. You know what I mean? Cause that was in Paris. It was the first time I was ever there. Um, and I just wanted to try as many, you know, and it was awesome. Going to all these little bakeries. I, I like the little ones. Like the, the smaller ones are just super buttery and delicious. And like, you know, in Italy, they do the cornetos and sometimes they like, they glaze the cornetos a little bit. So like in Paris, I would say definitely just like plain butter croissant. I think it's just like when those are good and they're warm. It's like,

• 5:08Joe Flamm?

  like, you know what I mean? Like, god damn, girl, like, let me get it.

• 5:15Joe Flamm?

  But I think like, you know, the one thing like I'm always like really a sucker for. If like, like, so actually it's funny on Thursday, you know, we record on Thursdays, me and you on our podcast every Thursday morning and wherever we are.

• 5:33Joe Flamm?

  And so my Thursday treat for myself, cause Thursday is my sleep in day. So I record with you and then I go to the coffee shop by my house. I get a coffee. And I treat myself to like an old fashioned style cake donut.

• 5:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God. Wait, wait. Like the kind that looks kind of like,

• 5:52Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 5:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Old school, like, yeah.

• 5:55Joe Flamm?

  Like I'm a cake donut, not a yeast donut person. And so, you know, sometimes they don't have those and I'll get like a chocolate one or they'd have this like apple fritter one that's super good. They get them from this really old bakery that's down like little south of me. That's been there for like a hundred years called Iverson's. And like, that's just like, that's my once a week sweet treat. Cup of, I get a, I get a red eye.

• 6:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, that's like, a red eye is four espressos?

• 6:21Joe Flamm?

  No, it's a coffee with a shot of espresso in it.

• 6:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, okay.

• 6:24Joe Flamm?

  It's like a beer at a shop, but in the morning.

• 6:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's like an Irish car bomb for breakfast.

• 6:31Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's like a boiler maker. But yeah, that's, that's my, that's my go to.

• 6:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Old fashioned donut and I'm old. You're talking about me for panel raisin and you, who still even makes old fashioned donuts? That is something that like, I don't even see at bakeries anymore.

• 6:48Joe Flamm?

  What do you mean? What bakeries are you going to where they don't have old fashioned donuts?

• 6:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  So many.

• 6:52Joe Flamm?

  Like Miami where everybody only eats like smoothies. Like, you know what I mean? And they're like, oh no, we don't like have donuts. Those are for like Orlando. But no, they're awesome. And they're everywhere and they're the best. They're like all textural, like texturally, they're so good.

• 7:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  If I had a hard day the night before or a hard day before, I want to treat myself in the morning. Or if I know I'm going into a hard day, I'm like, you know what? Let me grab something for this train ride, you know, through the city or for this walk so that I can like center myself. And so, yeah, I need like a nice pastry to go with my coffee.

• 7:30Joe Flamm?

  Same. When I'm like, I've dealt with Adrian for an hour. I need a nice, I need a nice treat.

• 7:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  You deserve a treat after that.

• 7:38Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 7:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Asshole.

• 7:42Joe Flamm?

  Moving on. I got a fork and forgot it for you today.

• 7:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, what do you have this week?

• 7:46Joe Flamm?

  And this is one that I kind of can't believe we haven't done. Cause this is going to be one that takes you back home. I know you're sitting in the beautiful streets of Paris right now. Sacre Coeur out the window, but we're gonna, we're gonna take it back to the streets of Chicago where we were born.

• 8:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like we do every week.

• 8:04Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I mean, it happens. Fork and forget it. We're going deep dish pizza. It's a little chill in the air. The season is upon us.

• 8:14Joe Flamm?

  I know you know it well. I know you have an opinion about it. I know you've been in New York a long time. So I think I'm putting you on the spot. I'm gonna make you stand here before our listeners and God and tell us what you think.

• 8:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  A hundred percent fork it. Deep dish pizza, fork it. Yes, yes. I'm standing on business. A hundred percent. Yes. Now, I have to add a little caveat to this. Deep dish pizza is not something you eat all the time.

• 8:45Joe Flamm?

  There you go.

• 8:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  One slice, that's it for like the whole day. But yes, it's fricking delicious. Now, my husband refers to it as a pizza casserole. He says it's not real pizza. So we, we have this debate all the time. But I love deep dish. It's, it's not that thick. I mean, it's not like, you know, I mean, I guess some of them can get like an inch thick, but normally it's like a half inch, three quarters of an inch thick.

• 9:11Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, if you compare it to an aver- average Midwesterner, it's not that thick. You know what I mean? It's just, we're just thick here. Everything's thick here. Don't worry about it.

• 9:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Including our pizza. But yeah, I love it. It's like, it's great. You put the sauce on top of the fillings and then the sauce gets like baked on to it. I mean, come on, what's not to love about it? And yes, I do love tavern style pizza, which we would eat more, which is essentially a thin crust pizza, just like New York style pizza, just cut into squares instead of triangles. So I'm familiar with the thin crust pizza world. And yes, we probably eat that more often. But a hundred percent deep dish pizza, I'm all in. I'm all in. I might have to split a slice with somebody, but I'm in.

• 9:57Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, listen, like, I'm not splitting a slice with anyone unless, you know what I mean? We're, we're, we're getting into multiple slice territory. But I'm a fork it. But I think like, I, I think deep dish pizza, I think is misunderstood. You know what I mean? Like, people are like, think it's like the only pizza. Like you're saying, like tavern pizza is the workhorse pizza of Chicago, right? That's your weeknight pizza. That's your Friday night pizza. Deep dish pizza, you have to understand, I think for outsiders, is deep dish pizza is the snow shovel in the trunk of pizzas. You know what I mean? Like, you don't need it every day. But when you need it, it's invaluable. Because it's like, it's the pizza you order where you're like, oh, it's gonna snow for two days after this. So if I'm locked in my house, I can survive for like four days on a deep dish pizza.

• 10:39Joe Flamm?

  It holds up really well, reheats super well. You could eat it cold. You cut it up cold and the cheese is like cubes. It's like, like you like slices it down almost like pizza shishimi.

• 10:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 10:50Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know, and I'm telling you, like, you get that cross section of like the cold sauce, the cold cheese, the cold sausage in there and the crust and it's so good, dude. It's so good. It's so underrated.

• 11:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 11:00Joe Flamm?

  It's like, it's one of those things where it's like,

• 11:04Joe Flamm?

  you know, they're like, people are like, oh, do you like go out for deep dish? It's like, no. But every once in a while, it's the right amount of cold.

• 11:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 11:11Joe Flamm?

  In the air. It should almost be a seasonal thing.

• 11:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  I was gonna say, it is definitely like a late fall.

• 11:16Joe Flamm?

  Like, they almost don't need to serve it in the summer. You know what I mean? It should be like, like, it's like how they have deer season. Like, Chicago should have deep dish season. Like, October 1st, it should just be like, deep dish season, you know, like the mayor should walk out to the lake shore.

• 11:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Pumpkin spice lattes.

• 11:30Joe Flamm?

  Right. You know what I mean? Like, you know, open up the first deep dish pizza of the season. And, you know, like, like the first patio day of the spring, we close deep dish season for the year. Just like,

• 11:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 11:42Joe Flamm?

  It was a good season, guys, right? You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's, you know, my proposal.

• 11:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love that. I love deep dish pizza season because you're right. Like, I can't remember really eating it around the spring or summer. I do remember us always having it in the fall, in the winter, because like my birthday's in November. So, cold weather, yeah, we're having a deep dish pizza around my birthday at our house. And then between birthday party stuff, hey, mom, I'm hungry. Grab a slice from the fridge. You know, like, that's your, that's your thing.

• 12:13Joe Flamm?

  They're like safety blankets. You know what I mean? Like, if you had a baby and you were stuck out in a snowstorm and you ordered a deep dish pizza, you could just like put that baby on top of that pizza. It would keep that baby warm.

• 12:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  A hundred percent.

• 12:26Joe Flamm?

  And it'd be fine.

• 12:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  It would be totally fine. Oh, my God.

• 12:30Joe Flamm?

  It's just misunderstood.

• 12:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  That brings back some awesome memories. Um.

• 12:36Joe Flamm?

  Glad we're on the same page there.

• 12:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  I am too. I mean, deep dish pizza is incredibly.

• 12:41Joe Flamm?

  You've been in New York a long time. I was worried about asking you that one. I was like, I don't know if you're gonna be able to come back home. You answered the question wrong, H.

• 12:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Did you really think that I was gonna disavow deep dish pizza?

• 12:52Joe Flamm?

  I didn't know what to think.

• 12:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joseph T. Flamm, I can't believe you doubted me.

• 12:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, let's keep it moving. So there's been some really, really big news. I don't know if you've heard about it, or if you're as excited as I am. But there's a restaurant opening called Bartuto.

• 13:13Joe Flamm?

  Ah, Bartuto.

• 13:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Bartuto.

• 13:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  So you're opening now what is going to be your fourth restaurant. Congratulations. That's super exciting. I love all three of them, so I'm really excited for the other new member of our family.

• 13:28Joe Flamm?

  Yep.

• 13:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  A new place to hang out. But what I'm curious about is there's so much that goes into a restaurant opening. And sometimes people who don't work in the food industry, even people who do work in the food industry, don't know how far in advance this process starts. We kind of talked about that with cookbooks. It's like a two-year process before. How long and what is the process for opening a new restaurant?

• 14:00Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, so that's, you know, it's funny. It's like, whenever, so now I'm at the point where we're probably about,

• 14:08Joe Flamm?

  I think we're seven weeks out, right, from Bartuto opening. So this is like where we're about to really get into crunch time. Because until you get the space, like as the chef, you know what I mean, you're kind of like, I'm in no man's land now, you know, I ordered my small wares. I wrote a menu that we still have to R and D, do all that for, but like.

• 14:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Small wares being everything from blenders to pots and pans.

• 14:30Joe Flamm?

  Blenders, pots and pans, you know, microplanes, cutting boards, you know, all that stuff. So

• 14:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 14:38Joe Flamm?

  Get that order together, get our plate order together. Like, that's what's all happening now, seven weeks out. And it's funny that we announce it and people are always like, oh, wow, it's opening then. That's happening so fast. It's like, no, I just like, you announce it when it's close to opening, for the most part, you know what I mean, you try to at least.

• 14:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 14:55Joe Flamm?

  But, you know, this is a project, and this one came, came along pretty quick, but it was, I guess, so now it's like. I'm thinking about it. So Carchofo opened in December of last year, 2024. In June of 2024, we like, so you go like how it works is like you go and you look at a space, right? And sometimes it's, you know, for where we're at now, where this is our fourth restaurant is sometimes we see spaces and we're like, oh, we want to go look at that space. We just see what's available. My, my, my partners are in real estate, so they always know what's going on. They know every property that's coming up within, you know, a three square mile of where we are. And so they'll send me stuff to be like, hey, what do you think of this space? Do we want to go look at it? And

• 15:39Joe Flamm?

  they just send me everything that comes up that's interesting. And then sometimes people reach out and they say, hey, we have a space. We need a restaurant for it, especially now with like all, with all these big buildings going up in Chicago and other cities, there's, you know, not as much retail and they need something to go in on the ground floor.

• 15:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, so they're anchoring with restaurants?

• 15:57Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, we're kind of the, you know, the last big bastion of like what you can anchor a building with because like there's just so much less retail now, right? So, you know, like Kevin Bain, one of the founders of Boca Group was talking about this on a podcast a couple of weeks ago, like how that's really such a big thing with restaurants now and leveraging those partnerships to, to, to build restaurants. But, so this was one where they approached us and they said, hey, we have this building and it's a, it's a really big apartment building, luxury apartments that are super nice, beautiful building. And we have a restaurant on the first floor, like kind of off to the side of it. You know, would you guys be interested in doing? And so like that conversation happened probably like end of May 2024.

• 16:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 16:43Joe Flamm?

  So that happened then. And then by June, we're like, okay, yeah, we're kind of interested. You go back and forth with your terms, right? And you say, this is how much square foot we're going to pay. And then there's usually a deal of like, we'll put in this much money to build out a space and they'll put in this much money to build out a space. You know what I mean? With bigger buildings, with bigger projects, like usually, you know, I mean, you can get a better deal for an operator, right? As opposed to like, if you just go, if you're just with a landlord, they might not have as much, you know, I mean, money to put in. So, you know, we go, we work this deal out. So that's June of 2024. So we opened Carchofo in December.

• 17:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 17:23Joe Flamm?

  And then we started building this restaurant, actually, like in June of 2025.

• 17:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 17:33Joe Flamm?

  And so build out usually takes like where we've found at least and like it helps again, my partners who their background is more real estate, they are better at managing the construction side of it. So it's like they do a lot of stuff and they do all the work on it of like setting it up, you know, putting us in a place where once we begin construction, we're in really good shape to begin it. So that it's like, we can have a five month build out, right?

• 17:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, wow. Okay. Instead of six or dragging into eight.

• 17:59Joe Flamm?

  Right. So it's always working really hard on the backend before it opens to try to be like, okay, once we swing that hammer, we're going to get this knocked out in five months.

• 18:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 18:09Joe Flamm?

  We're going to hit our timelines that we're not going to be waiting on woodwork. We're not going to be waiting on, you know, like when we opened Rosemary, it was like, you know, it was during COVID. It was like at one point, like the tile for the wall was like, literally, we were waiting on the tile for the wall and somebody was like, oh, it's in a port in the United States. And I was like, okay, so it's like here. They were like, right. We just don't know which port. I'm like, what do you mean?

• 18:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 18:35Joe Flamm?

  They're like, we know it's on a boat. We know it's in the United States. We know it's in a port. We don't know what port.

• 18:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my.

• 18:43Joe Flamm?

  So we don't know when it'll be here. And you're just like, like, okay.

• 18:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  And there's nothing you can do. There's nothing you can do.

• 18:50Joe Flamm?

  No. What do I call the port authority of every place along the eastern seaboard and be like, hey, this is Joe Flamm from Rosemary in Chicago. Have you seen any blue kind of Adriatic looking tiles and one of the containers in the trillion containers floating around your dock right now?

• 19:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  They're like, oh, a hundred percent. Let me go check on that.

• 19:07Joe Flamm?

  Could you just prioritize those and get those to me? I'm trying to open a restaurant. I think it's going to be pretty cool. If you could get those here, like I'll buy you a drink when you come in.

• 19:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that's not happening.

• 19:20Joe Flamm?

  Right. So anyways, you know, so we start construction in June and put you in about a five month schedule, right? So we're starting to wind down that five month schedule. So then it hits a point where we're at now, right? So this is, you know, as you and I speak right now, we're, we're, we're towards the end of October.

• 19:38Joe Flamm?

  So we're shooting for a first week of December opening. And like the way I schedule it out is I kind of do like a five week training, basically. So it's like, starting next week, it's like my top dogs report, right? So my GM will start, my chef to cuisine will start, my culinary director's ready on project. My director of operations is ready on project. And we'll have our first week of just us where it's like, now this is really like, we wrote a menu, but now we're going to start flushing it.

• 20:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:06Joe Flamm?

  I mean, like, okay, you know, this is what I was thinking. These are the placeholders. This is the direction now. How many more dishes do we want to add? What dishes do we want to change? And plus, it's like you write a menu three months ago.

• 20:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 20:19Joe Flamm?

  And I was writing, I was writing a menu in the middle of summer and like I had fall in my head, but it feels way different when you're sitting in fall, writing a menu for fall, right?

• 20:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 20:27Joe Flamm?

  So it's like, some of the stuff was like things that I was like, oh, this would be really good. But this is my July brain. And now I have to look at it with my October brain and be like, well, we can't do that dish because like, there's no peas.

• 20:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 20:39Joe Flamm?

  So you have to adjust it to the seasonality of when the restaurant's going to actually open. So it's like, we'll run through that menu and you know, I wrote version one and it'll probably be version two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight before we land where we land for.

• 20:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 20:53Joe Flamm?

  That's what's all beginning now. Then we bring in like sous chefs managers and then it's like, you have to hire all the hourly. And I think people don't realize like, you know, like how crazy that is. Like, you know, people who don't work in restaurants, I think if you work like some other jobs, it's like, you know, how many people do you hire in a career? You know, it's like, I'm going to hire 80 in the next three weeks.

• 21:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Whoa, wow.

• 21:15Joe Flamm?

  Like, I'm going to hire 80 people in the next three weeks. That's a ton.

• 21:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that's for all positions from dishwasher, back of house, waiter.

• 21:22Joe Flamm?

  To barista, to server, to food runner, to line cooks, to, you know what I mean? All those things.

• 21:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 21:28Joe Flamm?

  We're going to hire that amount of people in the next three weeks.

• 21:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 21:31Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, one of the craziest, scariest things, but it's like, for me, it's, you know, I remember when we were opening Car Chofa, like talking to my chef. He's like, oh, you know, like, it's, you know, like, like, kind of like, are you nervous about it? I was like, no, it's one of the things I'm most excited about. Because you never know who's going to walk through that door. I don't know who's going to be the next person who walks through that door, who, you know, is like my, uh, you know, my chef to cuisine at Rosemary now is Christine. Christine was a person who just walked in the door. I remember sitting in the basement of Rosemary before we opened, sitting on top of the prep tables, interviewing her. And it's like, you never know who that person's gonna be who ends up being there four and a half years later and running your restaurant.

• 22:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 22:11Joe Flamm?

  And being somebody you're super close with, or who's gonna be a person who's there for three weeks.

• 22:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 22:17Joe Flamm?

  And you don't know. And like, that's like, you don't know how these people are gonna impact your life. You know what I mean? Like, that to me is like, I geek out on that. I think it's so cool. Like, you know, I mean, it's one of the most exciting things to me of like, I have no idea who I'm about to meet, what friends I'm about to make. You know what I mean? Like, how me and these people will impact each other's lives. You know, I met some of my best friends in this industry. And so that part to me, it's like, I really love, and I like, really look forward to. Like, and I just like meeting people because I'm like a weirdo Midwesterner like that. You know what I mean? Like, oh, yeah. Like, I would like to hear this story about you growing up in Cedar Rapids right now.

• 22:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. I actually do want to hear all about this.

• 22:55Joe Flamm?

  So we get everybody hired. Then we basically have the last two weeks of November where we do a week of front of the house training where they just train silent. And then we'll have a week of back of the house training where we just train back of the house. And we go, every, every day is a different station, right? So like, Garmo team comes one day. And we just work with Garmo team, station setup, we cook through every dish, and just keep cooking, keep cooking them till they get it, right?

• 23:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 23:19Joe Flamm?

  Then we'll do, you know, saute pasta, then we'll do grill, prep production will be a day. It's usually the first day. And then the next week, we do that same thing, but we run it with the front of the house. And we start doing the food tastings with them. And we just split the food menu by station. So they start trying stuff.

• 23:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 23:36Joe Flamm?

  So that brings you a week out. And then we do a couple of days of friend, we do a mock service where we ring tickets, you know, practice it, basically, dry.

• 23:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  And back of houses cooking those tickets.

• 23:47Joe Flamm?

  Back of the house is cooking. So they're ringing in tickets. I'm firing tickets like, you know, I'm like, Adrienne, I fire two Cristiano, one bucatini, one fish on back. And we're gonna cook through it. We're gonna work it like a normal service. We're just not gonna have guests. Um, and then the next day you do.

• 24:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  But that's good also because then the cooks can get their timing, see how it is when they're not just cooking their dishes on their station, but dishes going with other people from other stations.

• 24:14Joe Flamm?

  Well, and you gotta learn, like, you're hiring, you know. And like you know this, but it's like the best lines are the lines with the best chemistry. Right? You had those station partners. I'm sure you worked with where it's like still this day. If you saw them and you work next to them, like you two wouldn't need to speak.

• 24:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep.

• 24:31Joe Flamm?

  Cause like I know how you move. I know where you're gonna go next. I know you plate back to front. I know you plate left or right. You know what I mean? I know you're gonna go spoon, then chives, then Crispy's, then lemon zest. So like if you need help, I know that if you're going chives, I'm gonna go crispy. So you can go right in the lemon zest.

• 24:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  And

• 24:50Joe Flamm?

  And that's not a conversation. I just know it.

• 24:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 24:54Joe Flamm?

  So it's like they have to, you know, you just need them to get back there and start to feel each other out. You need them to learn how to talk to each other. You need them to like learn each other's personalities and like, like, you know, it's like dance partners, like they gotta learn like how to, how to move with each other.

• 25:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Joe Flamm?

  So a lot of it is just getting those reps in with each other. So like having that for the mock service and then getting into a friends and family. And you know, where it's just, we invite people in who we know and basically, you know, we just run. We run it like a service, but you know what I mean? You don't charge anybody and you just like, hey, you guys are just our, our test dummies.

• 25:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  And those are fun. I love going to friends and family. So, you know, don't forget my invitation.

• 25:33Joe Flamm?

  Right. It's like, you know, spring training. It's like, you know, preseason for football. And, and I think it's like, you know, cause at the end of those nights, we're always like, you know, cause sometimes it's like, you're like, oh, this dish is gonna be awesome. And then it's like, you watch somebody try to execute it 30 times and you're like, no fucking way we can do this.

• 25:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 25:50Joe Flamm?

  Like this is a great dish when I make it once, but like watching a cook try to execute this 30 times. You're like, we're going down on this. And it was like, even with Carchofa, it was like, you know, like the choke points, you know, and some of them, you're like, okay. Like, you know, opening Carchofa, you're like pasta is gonna be massive, right? And so we need to have a pasta station that's set out where I can throw as many people at it as I need to, so we can bail it out. Cause we're gonna get,

• 26:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 26:14Joe Flamm?

  You know, that's a restaurant where it's not uncommon to have 25 to 35 pastas on fire at once.

• 26:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Whoa.

• 26:23Joe Flamm?

  So you need to be able to dig. So that's why there's a double bubbler. That's why there's an eight eye French top over there. Because it's like, you can put out 40 pastas in six months.

• 26:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's smart. Yeah.

• 26:34Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like if you've got hands and it's the station's really big, so you can get a bunch of people over there. But it's like there, it's like the choke point ended up being the oven. Like the entree side of oven, it was like, this is like really tough trying to work within this confined space and doing it. So like that took us a really long time to learn and like working with the pizza dough. You know, because we couldn't practice the pizza dough till we got that oven. Because even if we practiced it, it wouldn't matter because it's going to act completely different in that oven than it would in any other oven.

• 27:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 27:07Joe Flamm?

  So, you know, you have all these like, there's the ones you try to anticipate, but then there's the new ones that come up. And so it's like, you have to, you know, like, and I think we've talked about this before, but like, there's this idea in your head when you open a restaurant of what it's going to be. Right? And you're like, okay, this is what we're going to do. This is what I think. And it's like from simple things of like Rosemary where I was like, oh, the bar at Rosemary is going to be a place mostly where people just drink. Like, I'm like, people are going to like, treat it like a, like a bar in the neighborhood. They'll come up there, they'll have a glass of wine, a cocktail. Like, maybe they'll have a bite. Maybe they'll have one plate. You know what I mean? Maybe they'll get a plate of clams. Maybe they'll have, you know, a chivop sandwich. You know, like you would a burger. And like, that'll be it. And then we opened and it's full dinner service at the bar every day for four and a half years.

• 27:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Every seat is people having full meals.

• 27:55Joe Flamm?

  Full dinner.

• 27:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 27:56Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, it's awesome. I love it. It's the best.

• 27:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, but you also didn't anticipate that.

• 28:01Joe Flamm?

  Didn't anticipate it. I anticipated that I needed to have things on that were kind of bar snacky for people who were just hanging out at the bar. And then it was like, no, you don't, because that's not what we do.

• 28:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 28:10Joe Flamm?

  Because it was like, I had chicken wings on the menu early on. I had the chivop as like a one individual sandwich. And I had to change all those things because it was like, this isn't what people want.

• 28:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, they want the full dining experience, not bar food.

• 28:23Joe Flamm?

  They just want to do that at the bar.

• 28:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And that's so crazy because you can't, those are things you're not going to know until you're, there's a difference even between the dress rehearsal of like friends and family where you're getting service down. And that's like the real dress rehearsal, but until you get. Cooking, literally, front and back of house, having guests in on a regular basis, you don't know what the community is gonna want. You don't know what the neighborhood is gonna want. You don't know, are people gonna be coming from this part of the city, or this part of the city, or from out of town? You know, what is this going to be? And that can take a few months to even kind of define the identity of what the restaurant is in terms of what guests want.

• 29:06Joe Flamm?

  A thousand percent, you know? And I think it's one of those weird things. It's like, yeah, you're like, oh, it's gonna be this. And then like, once you open the doors, like, you can't control what people order. You know, friends and family, you try to game it to make it random, you know? But it's like, you don't know. You don't know what's gonna be that thing where it's like, oh, that thing we thought we were gonna sell 20 of, we sell 80 of. And that thing we thought we were gonna sell 30 of, we sell five of.

• 29:33Joe Flamm?

  And, you know, maybe that thing we're selling 80 of, we thought we were gonna only sell 20, and like, production-wise, that was okay. And now it's like, we have to re-scheme everything. Like, that was, you know, that was the ribs at Rosemary. I didn't think we were gonna sell 240 racks of ribs a week.

• 29:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 29:49Joe Flamm?

  So then it was like, alright, we need to figure out like SOPs of like, how we do ribs.

• 29:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 29:53Joe Flamm?

  Because we're not gonna be able to keep up.

• 29:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 29:56Joe Flamm?

  And just like, all sorts of things like that. So it's like, going into this one, it's like, you know, and it's like, this is, you know, my third opening on my own. I've been a part, I think, of 17 different openings, like, along my road. Uh, and of all different shapes and sizes. You're like, okay, like, I'm thinking of everything, I'm thinking of everything. You know what I mean? And then there's always, like, you open and they're like,

• 30:19Joe Flamm?

  you know, there's always like, a weird one of like, well, what are we gonna do about this? And it's like, huh. Let you know when I figure that one out. Like, you know, and so it's like, i- it's just like a wild time. But I think that's the exciting part of it. And I think, you know, as I sit with my, you know, team this week, and, you know, as we've interviewed some, some new front of house managers, like, one of the big things I just keep telling people, I'm like, the biggest thing I need from you is, I need great communication, I need flexibility, and I need grace.

• 30:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 30:49Joe Flamm?

  I was like, those are my big three.

• 30:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Those are the three most important things right there.

• 30:55Joe Flamm?

  Like, I will give you all three in return, but like, I need them from you as well. I need you to give me, you know, all the grace and patience in the world as I'm trying to figure out all this shit. And I will give you the same. And if we both give each other that, it'll be really good and we'll be able to communicate really nice. But like, we all have to go into this with a flexible mindset of like, this is what we want and you gotta hold true, right? You have to have an identity and say, this is who we are and we're gonna do this and we're gonna try to do the best version of this. But like, have the flexibility of like, okay, but what, you know what I mean? Like, what version of this is gonna be what our guests truly connect with?

• 31:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Yeah, it's so interesting to do restaurant openings. It's like, I remember I've probably done nine or so, eight or nine in my lifetime for different people. My mom opened restaurants when I was younger, but as an adult, either in college or as a professional cooking, helping other people open restaurants. It's such an interesting experience. And I remember one of the, one of the last ones I did was when I was working for Marcus Samuelson and we opened Street Bird, which was his fast casual concept. And the biggest thing was the rotisserie chickens. And I came in on the corporate side two weeks before the restaurant opened.

• 32:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  So I hadn't been part of the menu development, getting the space outfitted, getting equipment, all that. So I come in two weeks before opening and I'm like, okay, let me familiarize myself with the recipe books and the space and see how everything is gonna flow and the prep list. Um, the chickens were to be dry rubbed with this beautiful spice mixture that had a little brown sugar and salt and it was really good. We could not keep up with the volume because we also did not have enough space in the walk-ins to house chickens being dry rubbed. There were no speed racks in the restaurant.

• 32:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  So imagine shelving that's maybe four feet between each shelf.

• 33:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  So I put one sheet tray of chickens on there. I've got three and a half feet of space that I need to be putting chickens in, but there's no more shelves in that space.

• 33:11Joe Flamm?

  Right. And you have one sheet tray, which is probably, what, a dozen chickens, which is twenty-four orders, maybe?

• 33:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. I had to take a sous chef to Chinatown. We bought three speed racks, hooked him up to the top of some guy's van and had him drive us back to Harlem. Shout out to Eric Brown for that. Um, and we, and we got the, we got the chickens on speed racks and that still wasn't enough. So I had to go back to Marcus and say, hey chef, the, the restaurant isn't built for this prep at this volume. Can we look at brining the chickens instead of doing dry rub? Because I can get forty chickens in the brine, same spice mixture. Just make it a solution and brine the chickens. I can get forty to sixty in a big plastic container

• 34:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  and we've got enough chickens for like two days instead of half a service. And so we had to have that whole debate about, you know, they had recipe tested this for months with the dry rub. They had never recipe tested for a brine. So, you know, it's like restaurants morph and grow and change as they're open based on what customers want and based on, you know, prep needs.

• 34:25Joe Flamm?

  You, you have to adapt to the space and I'm lucky enough where it's like I get to design my own kitchens. And it's like, I remember like when we were doing El Carchofo, I was going to Italy for Tony Montano's son's wedding and I was meeting Missy Robbins there. And I literally was waiting at the airport. We had just signed the lease for El Carchofo. This was in 2022. So that one took two years. And I drew the kitchen in my notebook, sitting in the United Lounge at O'Hare on my way to Italy. And then I got to Italy and like the first thing I did is me and Missy sat down and had coffee and I. Took her through my drawings and I'm like, all right, this is what I'm thinking. And like picture my kitchen for, for El Cartelfo. She's like, oh, this is awesome. You know what I mean?

• 35:05Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, that stuff is all like really fun to me too. Like trying to like, figure out the puzzle of the line. Right? If you're like, yeah, you're doing dry brined rotisserie chickens. It's like, okay, where are we going to put all these birds?

• 35:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 35:19Joe Flamm?

  And if you don't ask that question ahead of time, you're answering that question on the fly.

• 35:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly. And it's so cool. I mean, I talked to friends in so many different cities and restaurant openings in every city. It's funny, they're so, they're so similar. Of course you have to deal with some local laws and permitting and stuff when it comes to construction. Liquor licenses, all that is different city to city, but by and large, the process of opening a restaurant countrywide is like the exact same.

• 35:48Joe Flamm?

  It's like, people are like, oh, how long does it get delayed? It's like, I would say you're six months out till you're six weeks out.

• 35:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 35:53Joe Flamm?

  And then you're, and then you're six weeks out until you're two weeks out. I've been six weeks out for the last three months. You know what I mean? I was six months out for the last year and a half.

• 36:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 36:02Joe Flamm?

  And that's just kind of how it works. And it's like, for me, it's like now, it's like, I just try to put it in the back of my head completely. And I'm like, until I get in striking distance, like I'm not allowed to get excited about it. And I try not to work creatively on it. I'm like, focus at the task at hand. You have restaurants that are open, focus on those menus. And then, you know, I'm rolling out all the fall menus for all three spots right now. And then once those fall menus are done, it's like, okay, now we can full go. Now we don't have to touch the menus again until first of the year. So everybody's set. Now, all guns go for Bartuto.

• 36:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 36:38Joe Flamm?

  Like this is the focus. This is the drive. Like this is everything. And you can completely like, put your mind and everything into it. And so I go into like crazy opening mode.

• 36:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And crazy opening mode? Oh my God. Everybody that I know drops like 10 to 15 pounds during that opening, you know, two to three month period. Cause you're just living on like fumes the entire time.

• 37:01Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Cause it's like, you gotta just do it.

• 37:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  I've, the restaurants that I've opened for other people, I wasn't there in the beginning, the planning stages. I always came in as the operations for opening a restaurant. And I mean, there is nothing like it. I've opened restaurants for people in different cities, a couple of different countries. And it is. Oh, man.

• 37:24Joe Flamm?

  The smell of the

• 37:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Talk about push it to the limit.

• 37:26Joe Flamm?

  There like that first ticket ringing through on boxing for the first time, taking out the small wares like, man, sitting in that first orientation in front of your teams and you're just like, you know, the first time you're like, welcome to fucking Bartuto. Like, let's fucking go, you know, this shit's electric.

• 37:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's special. It's special.

• 37:45Joe Flamm?

  We'll see. We'll see how I feel in seven weeks.

• 37:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. We're gonna have to do a follow up.

• 37:51Joe Flamm?

  Hopefully I'm 15 pounds out.

• 37:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, Joe, how about you take it to the walk in?

• 37:58Joe Flamm?

  A little walk in confession time?

• 38:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  A little walk in confession.

• 38:02Joe Flamm?

  I was, you know, I was thinking about this one the other day. I'd kind of, I hadn't thought about this in a long time. We were, uh, we were getting ready for an offsite and we've gotten very good at offsites over the years. And, you know, you and I have talked about offsites a lot. You do it a lot, I think, in your professional chef life where you go somewhere. You're in Paris right now cooking, right? And whenever you have to go to another city and cook, it's an away game.

• 38:27Joe Flamm?

  So when I took over a chef de cuisine of Spiaja, I was, I think I was 30. And this was like my first big on the road dinner. I was doing a James Beard Foundation dinner in San Francisco.

• 38:44Joe Flamm?

  Uh, it was for 350 guests. And we had to do, you know, they sent me the email. They said, Hey, you know, you're gonna come out and do this dinner, 350 guests, and you're gonna do two courses.

• 38:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, that's huge.

• 38:58Joe Flamm?

  And I said, uh, well, you know, um, I said, well, we're traveling in. Could maybe we do one course and maybe the host chef do two courses? They said, no, the visiting chef does two courses, so you have to do two courses. So I'm working for Tony at the time of Spiaja. Our host chef is, uh, Michael Tusk at Quince.

• 39:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, okay.

• 39:18Joe Flamm?

  And Cotonha. So it's two restaurants there. I've never met this man. I've never been to his restaurants. I don't know if I'd ever been to San Francisco. All right, I've been to San Francisco once. So, you know, they're like, listen, you know, you go out there, they'll have space for you. They'll have people for you, help you prep this. It's just me and Tony going to this dinner, right? So they're like, well, people for you will have hands for you. Don't worry about it. We got everything you need.

• 39:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, okay.

• 39:42Joe Flamm?

  Like, it'll be fine. And I'm like, oh, I'm a young chef de cuisine. They told me it'll be fine. I believe them.

• 39:52Joe Flamm?

  It was not fine.

• 39:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 39:54Joe Flamm?

  So I get out there and I don't know if you've ever been to Quince or Cotonha. But they're very small kitchens and they're very busy restaurants. So Quince is a three Michelin star restaurant. And it's connected to its sister restaurant, Cotonha, which is like more casual Italian, you know, um, but very nice restaurant, but it's, it's tight. So I get back there and so I have, I'm doing a delicata squash dish that I have to prep for 350 people. And then I'm doing a braised pork shoulder dish.

• 40:24Joe Flamm?

  For 350 people. So I think I had, I think I measured it out to like, you know, I'm like eight ounces raw to give me, you know, four ounces kick, whatever. I had like, I had like 300 pounds of pork shoulder.

• 40:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, God.

• 40:38Joe Flamm?

  That I needed to braise.

• 40:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  In a tiny kitchen?

• 40:41Joe Flamm?

  So we go out two days early. I get there the first day. They show up and I'm like, hey, you know, they said they'd have hands and space for me here. I'm Joe from Chicago. They take me in the back prep kitchen. Guy goes, yeah, okay. You can have this space. And he shows me a space that's literally the size of like a sheet of paper. And he's like, you can, you can, you can work here. And I was like, oh, okay. Sure. I'm like, yeah, I just gotta cut, you know, 300 pounds of squash real quick. That's fine.

• 41:09Joe Flamm?

  And I'm like, hey, I need to, you know, I go, do, do I have any hands? And he's like, for what? I was like, oh, to help me prep. He's like, uh,

• 41:18Joe Flamm?

  he's like, what do you need? I'm like, well,

• 41:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  What?

• 41:21Joe Flamm?

  I'm like, I need to cut all the squash. I need to do this. And he's like,

• 41:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Per our previous emails.

• 41:26Joe Flamm?

  He's like, okay, um, that guy over there, he'll shave radishes for you. You said you needed eight quarts of shaved radishes? I was like, yeah. He's like, he'll do that. I was like,

• 41:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thanks, but like, yeah.

• 41:37Joe Flamm?

  So I'm like, also, um, I go, I need to braise 300 pounds of pork shoulder.

• 41:44Joe Flamm?

  And he's like, okay, I go, so where should I do that? And he takes me over to into Quince and he shows me an oven and uh he goes, you can use this oven now. But we'll need it back. This is like 11 o'clock. He's like, we'll need it back at 12:30 for service.

• 42:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  What?

• 42:04Joe Flamm?

  I go an hour and a half from now and it's one oven. It is one oven, one door of an oven. I go like an hour and a half from now. Yeah, yep. But you can have it till then.

• 42:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 42:16Joe Flamm?

  Well, that doesn't work. And he's like, no, like that's, he's like, that's all I can give you. I was like, all right. So our event was like Saturday. This was like Thursday. I was like, okay. I go, when would the ovens be open? He's like, I mean, they're usually open from like, you know, really early in the morning.

• 42:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Or overnight.

• 42:37Joe Flamm?

  I was like, I go, how early? He's like, someone gets here at four. I go, can I get here at four? He goes, sure. So I came in the next day at 4:00 AM with the morning people. And I had to braise it in like three rounds. So I was like, I had to do two and you know, pork shoulders and way it takes five hours. So I was like, if I can get one done by 90, like if I get them in a, like I set them all up, get one in. Pull them out at 9:00 AM, get the second round in, I'll have those out by 1:00 PM.

• 43:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 43:09Joe Flamm?

  And I can get my eight pans of pork shoulder, whatever done.

• 43:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Jesus.

• 43:14Joe Flamm?

  Go at 5:00 AM and I was like, I'll go again on Saturday so I can do another round. So I go again on Saturday, 5:00 AM.

• 43:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 43:20Joe Flamm?

  And Saturday's the event. So I get all the pork braised. I get all the shit cut. Like finally, you know what I mean? So we're out there and we go to plate up, plating up 350. And I turned to, you know, the chef uh from Quince and I go, hey, uh, you know, we got first course, you guys are second course, right? And then we're third course. I go, yeah.

• 43:46Joe Flamm?

  I go, cool. You guys want to give me hands plating first course? They have like eight people. I have me.

• 43:52Joe Flamm?

  And he goes, yeah, we'll, uh, we'll help you play it after we played our course. I was like, well, your second course. He goes, yeah, well, we preset up our plates. I go, right, but I'm first course, so I have to play first. He goes, yeah. So when we, after we've preset up our plates,

• 44:07Joe Flamm?

  we'll help you play.

• 44:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 44:10Joe Flamm?

  So it was basically him telling me to go fuck myself.

• 44:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, yeah.

• 44:14Joe Flamm?

  So I start plating out three hundred and fifty salads by my fucking salvage.

• 44:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Jesus.

• 44:21Joe Flamm?

  So if Tony comes back, he's like, what are you doing? I was like, I'm plating. I need to start plating now because I have three hundred and fifty plates. He's like, why aren't those guys helping you? I was like, they said they'll help after their course. He's like, aren't they second course? I go, yes, chef. He's like, what the fuck? So Tony goes out, finds people.

• 44:39Joe Flamm?

  From where? Don't know. These other chefs who are around.

• 44:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 44:42Joe Flamm?

  They all come back. They helped me play. Get me out of this. Bail me out hard. Bail me out hard. I'd still be fucking plating to this day.

• 44:51Joe Flamm?

  So first course goes, we get it out. Their second course goes, we get it out. We get the third course. Three hundred and fifty people. I counted this pork shoulder ten times.

• 44:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, no.

• 45:00Joe Flamm?

  So I'm in the back, I'm heating up all the pork and it's like pork shoulder, mostarda, polenta, this radish salad on top.

• 45:09Joe Flamm?

  And we're going through pork and Michael Tusk, chef owner of Quincy, Cottone, three Michelin star chef, is plating the pork on that side of the kitchen. I'm cooking the pork on the side of this kitchen. We get, we're like two hundred and fifty plates in. And he goes, and I don't know if you've ever met Tusk.

• 45:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  No.

• 45:30Joe Flamm?

  He is like old school, like, you know, son of a bitch chef, like hard ass, you know, and he's got this real gruff voice and he just goes, not gonna make it on pork.

• 45:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my god.

• 45:43Joe Flamm?

  And I'm looking at it. I'm like, I go, we're gonna make it chef. And we're yelling back and forth like this is a big ass guy. I'm like, we're gonna make it. He's like, we're not gonna make it. We're gonna be short on pork. I'm like, we're not gonna be short on pork. We're gonna make it. We're gonna make it. And it's like, we're getting down. We're getting down. We're 50 left. He's like, we're not gonna make it. I'm like, we're gonna make it. I got the pork. He's like, we're not gonna make it. We're 20 left. He's like, there's no way we're gonna make it. We aged to the plate, to the plate, to the

• 46:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my god.

• 46:09Joe Flamm?

  We had 350 and we put that last one out and I go, we fucking made it.

• 46:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my god.

• 46:15Joe Flamm?

  And he just started laughing and I was just like, but I was sweating absolute bullets.

• 46:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my god.

• 46:23Joe Flamm?

  Star chef screaming at me from across the kitchen. We're not gonna make it. And I'm like, we're gonna make it. We're gonna make it. We have to make it. I don't know what I would have done. If we would have been short, I think I would have just walked out the back door.

• 46:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:35Joe Flamm?

  I just would have been gone. Like, nobody would have seen me again. I would have just walked into the streets of San Francisco.

• 46:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  And like, never to be seen again.

• 46:42Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? I would have been driving a fucking Uber out there. I don't know. But it was like, we made it to the plate. And then you have that moment, you know, where you gotta stand there and wait for the servers to come back.

• 46:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep, just in case anything comes back.

• 46:54Joe Flamm?

  And be like, everybody got one? They're like, yes chef, everybody's got one. And I was just like.

• 46:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right. Cause you don't want them to come back and say, oh chef, we missed part of the room. We need 10 more plates.

• 47:04Joe Flamm?

  Right. Or if they would have came back and said, we needed one more.

• 47:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 47:07Joe Flamm?

  I was cooked. I was cooked. I had zero more. I had zero extra. I had, you know what I mean? Cause I was like cutting them and I was like, let's get close. I'm like, a little small, a little small. And just him yelling at me, we're not gonna make it. I was like, we're gonna make it. Poured sweat. We were gonna make it. Like, it was, oh dude, I mean, it was one of those ones where it was like.

• 47:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  I can feel the stress.

• 47:34Joe Flamm?

  Man, I hung on by the skin of my teeth. And you know, Tony afterwards, of course, Tony being the coolest dude in any room ever of all time. He is. I wasn't worried about it.

• 47:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Way to pull that out, Joe. Seriously, you nailed that count.

• 47:53Joe Flamm?

  So I learned my lesson that day.

• 47:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  If I could take you out for a shift beer after, I would.

• 47:57Joe Flamm?

  I learned my lesson that day of I was like, you know, now it's like, I always tell my chefs like, oh, they said they'll have people. I was like, no.

• 48:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  No.

• 48:05Joe Flamm?

  I was like, we only have us. No one is coming for us. Have everything ready. Everything is prepared. We are ready for everything.

• 48:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep. Ship it. Just ship it all. Don't rely on space or people.

• 48:18Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, we rely on no one. We just need a fire and we'll be good. That's how we operate now.

• 48:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. The only people you can depend on is yourself. Um, way to go, Joe. That's an awesome walk in win.

• 48:29Joe Flamm?

  That was a barely win. That was the last minute field goal. Clutching your pearls.

• 48:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. That's a hail Mary for sure, but you made it. That's all that matters at the end of the day is you made it.

• 48:41Joe Flamm?

  Well, age, another great week. Appreciate you checking in from Ollie.

• 48:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  It is always a blast. No matter where I am, Joe, we are doing this.

• 48:51Joe Flamm?

  And no matter where you guys are, don't forget to follow the chef's cut on IG to subscribe to the podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. And so you can follow along with all the fun we're having.

• 49:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes. New episodes come out every Tuesday, so like, subscribe and leave a review. It does help a lot, but no one stars. On behalf of Joe Flamm and Adrian Cheatham, this has been the chef's cut.

• 49:14Joe Flamm?

  Life beyond the past.