175: How to DOMINATE in Leadership. Lessons and Guidelines From Bernard 'Monty' Montgomery

0:00:00 - Opening 0:12:43 - Military Leadership. A transcript, by Bernard 'Monty' Montgomery. 1:48:46 - Closing Thoughts and Take-aways. 1:59:59 - Support: How to Stay on THE PATH. 2:28:15 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 175 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  23 October 1942, 8th Army.

• 0:15Jocko Willink?

  Personal message from the Army Commander.

• 0:19Jocko Willink?

  "When I assumed command of the 8th Army, I said that the mandate was to destroy Rommel and his army and that it would be done as soon as we are ready. We are ready now.

• 0:33Jocko Willink?

  The battle which is about to begin will be one of the decisive battles of history. It will be the turning point of the war. The eyes of the whole world will be on us, watching anxiously which way the battle will swing.

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  We can give them their answer at once. It will swing our way. We have first-class equipment, good tanks, good anti-tank guns, plenty of artillery and plenty of ammunition, and we are backed up by the finest air-striking force in the world.

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  All that is necessary is that each one of us, every officer and man, should enter this battle with the determination to see it through, to fight and to kill, and finally, to win. If we all do this, there can be only one result. Together, we will hit the enemy for six, right out of North Africa.

• 1:40Jocko Willink?

  The sooner we win this battle, which will be the turning point of the war, the sooner we shall all get back home to our families.

• 1:49Jocko Willink?

  Therefore, let every officer and man enter the battle with a stout heart and the determination to do his duty as long as he has breath in his body.

• 2:02Jocko Willink?

  And let no man surrender so long as he is unwounded and can fight.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  Let us all pray that the Lord mighty in battle will give us victory."

• 2:17Jocko Willink?

  B.L. Montgomery, Lieutenant General, 8th Army.

• 2:25Jocko Willink?

  And that is a note written on the eve of the Battle of Al-Amin, which ended up being the turning point of the war in North Africa. And General Bernard Montgomery, commonly referred to as Monty, defeated the Desert Fox, Rommel, one of the most respected generals in all of history, really. And Monty was a, actually a controversial figure. And I think he got more controversial, the more famous he got. He fought in World War I.

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  He was a soldier. He was gravely wounded by a sniper in the Battle of Ypres. He was shot in the lung. He was in such bad shape that they actually dug a grave for him.

• 3:18Jocko Willink?

  But somehow he pulled through. He recovered. He served the rest of the war as a staff officer. And he was actually very critical of the, of the tactics and of the strategy and of the willingness of the leadership to accept such horrific and heinous levels of casualties. So he was critical of that. And after the war was over, he served, he stayed in the army. He served in Palestine. He served in India.

• 3:50Jocko Willink?

  And then in 1939, of course, there was more war. And he was in command of the 3rd Division. He went to France. And he was actually pretty worried about going to France. He didn't feel super confident about it. And he returned home with the rest of the British forces that were driven off the continent,

• 4:11Jocko Willink?

  um, from Dunkirk.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, there they were able to refit, to be able to go out and reengage. And he headed to Africa next. And the 8th Army was pretty beat down at that point. When he showed up though, he turned around their morale and made them believe that they could win and won the first major land victory of the war in the Second Battle of El Alamein.

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  From there, he helped the invasion of Sicily and Italy. And then he commanded all forces, all ground forces on D-Day. He commanded all the ground forces. So that was obviously a massive operation. He planned and led Operation Market Garden, which was the invasion of the Low Countries. We've covered some of those battles on this podcast because it was not good. It didn't go well. And he was kind of the guy pushing that, but he was able to redeem himself from that during the Battle of Bolje, which we've also covered on this podcast. So, you know, he had some ups and downs, but mostly ups.

• 5:23Jocko Willink?

  So what was the controversy or what's this kind of tainted image of him? First of all, some people saw him as being arrogant. And some of the people that saw him as being arrogant were Americans, Americans like Patton and Bradley. And I mean, let's face it, if you're talking about for sure Patton, we're not talking about a guy with a small ego. So you can imagine that when you have a clash of egos, that can be, you know, you can get some professional jealousy and whatnot. Even Sir Winston Churchill said that Monty was, and this is a good quote, "In defeat unbeatable, in victory unbearable."

• 6:03Jocko Willink?

  So there's another anecdote about him where he was asked to name three great generals. And he said the other two would be Alexander the Great and Napoleon. Meaning he's just on top of the list. So he may have had, he may have been a little bit egotistical and, and, and I think from what I've read about him, he lacked, lacked tact. And later on in life, he was kind of, he was controversial as well. He was very critical of American tactics in Vietnam.

• 6:40Jocko Willink?

  He said that America had no clear-cut objective in Vietnam, which, you know, I'm critical of the tactics in Vietnam. I think it's pretty safe to say that there should have been a more clear-cut objective. That obviously made some of our military leadership in America angry. I don't know if I would argue against those statements. He oddly enough spoke positively about the Chinese Communist Government when he was older. He publicly supported apartheid in South Africa. So, these are more things that people sort of tainted his image. But, besides all that, he is still known as a tactician.

• 7:25Jocko Willink?

  And there's plenty of support from his troops and his men that loved him and were ready to follow him anywhere. And there are some people that say even that he acted arrogant. It was almost like a show that he put on to kind of unify his troops. That this was Monty, this was the great guy, and we're just, we got him. Look what Monty did, you know. So, there's that. He wrote a lot. He spoke. He wrote well. He's got some great some documents that he put out. And one, he's got a ton that he put out. One of them, I'm gonna read. It's a very, it's a very interesting piece. And so, he wrote this

• 8:03Jocko Willink?

  after Germany had surrendered. And the British occupation forces were in place in Germany. So, you've got the Brits there in Germany occupying the country. You've got the German civilians who have been defeated in war. And here we go to this message that he wrote. "10 June 1945, Germany, personal message from the Commander-in-Chief to the population of the British area in Germany. You have wondered, no doubt, why our soldiers do not smile when you wave your hands, or say good morning in the streets, or play with the

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  children. It is because our soldiers are obeying orders. You do not like it, nor do our soldiers. We are naturally friendly and forgiving people. But the orders were necessary, and I will tell you why."

• 9:02Jocko Willink?

  In the last war of 1914, which your rulers began, your army was defeated. Your generals surrendered, and the peace treaty of Versailles, your rulers admitted that the guilt of beginning the war was Germany's.

• 9:19Jocko Willink?

  But the surrender was made in France. The war never came to your country. Your cities were not damaged, like the cities of France and Belgium. And your armies marched home in good order.

• 9:35Jocko Willink?

  Then your rulers began to spread the story that your armies were never really defeated. And later, they denied the war guilt clauses of the peace treaty. They told you that Germany was neither guilty nor defeated. And because the war had not come to your country, many of you believed it.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  And you cheered when your rulers began another war. Again, after years of waste and slaughter and misery, your armies have been defeated. This time, the Allies were determined that you should learn your lesson, not only that you have been defeated, which you must know by now, but that you, your nation, were again guilty of beginning the war.

• 10:25Jocko Willink?

  For if that is not made clear to you and your children, you may again allow yourselves to be deceived by your rulers and led into another war.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  During the war, your rulers would not let you know what the world was thinking of you.

• 10:43Jocko Willink?

  Many of you seem to think that when our soldiers arrived, you could be friends with them at once, as if nothing much had happened. But too much has happened for that. Our soldiers have seen their comrades shot down, their homes in ruins, their wives and children hungry. They have seen terrible things in many countries where your rulers took the war.

• 11:07Jocko Willink?

  For those things, you will say you are not responsible, it was your rulers. But they were done by the German nation. Every nation is responsible for its rulers, and while they were successful, you cheered and laughed.

• 11:25Jocko Willink?

  That is why our soldiers do not smile at you.

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  This we have ordered. This we have done to save yourselves, to save your children, to save the world from another war.

• 11:40Jocko Willink?

  It will not always be so. For we are Christian forgiving people and we like to smile and be friendly. Our object is to destroy the evil of the Nazi system.

• 11:53Jocko Willink?

  It is too soon to be sure that this has been done.

• 11:58Jocko Willink?

  You are to read this to your children if they are old enough and see that they understand. Tell them why it is that the British soldier does not smile.

• 12:10Jocko Willink?

  B.L. Montgomery, Field Marshal, Commander in Chief, British Area.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  So, obviously that message was produced in German and in English and spread out amongst the population. I thought that was a pretty awesome outlook. And he also spoke and wrote a fair amount about leadership.

• 12:39Jocko Willink?

  And I think when you look at his writing and his speeches, you can see some of his, some of his peculiarities, some of his personality shines through sometimes. And I want to take a look at some of that, some of the things that he wrote. And the first piece is called Military Leadership. And it's actually from a speech that he gave at the University of St. Andrews on 15 November 1945. It's like a transcript or maybe it's his notes, I'm not sure which, but it's,

• 13:20Jocko Willink?

  it's written as if he was reading it. So, here we go, let's go to this book. Military Leadership. "I've come here today to talk to you about military leadership. A subject such as this must in normal times seem somewhat remote from this quiet gray-walled city by the sea."

• 13:42Jocko Willink?

  Today I have to try and equate the definition of military leadership as I see it to the lessons of the past and to the experience of the present. I propose to limit myself in this talk to higher leadership, the command of armies or a group of armies, and not to consider the quality of leadership at lower levels. What I say about higher leadership may well have certain application to leadership of a brigade, or a company, or a section of men. There are however, certain differences in leadership at lower levels, and I do not propose to take up your time by discussing these today. Now you'll see as he goes into this, he covers up, he's talking about that all the time.

• 14:21Jocko Willink?

  I'm not sure even why he, he did that, but he talks about the entire chain of command throughout this speech. Military leadership is a subject which has always interested me, and during this war, I have had some opportunity to put my ideas to the test. I have found that if you aspire to lead soldiers, you must take a close study of human nature. For that is the raw material with which a commander has to achieve his end. If you neglect the human factor, as a leader, you will fail. The personal relationship between a commander and his soldiers is and always has been one of the most potent single factors in making for success in war.

• 15:05Jocko Willink?

  If a commander has the complete confidence and trust of his men, there is nothing he cannot do, nothing. If a commander loses the confidence of his men, he cannot succeed. That's a bold statement right there. That's a bold statement right there, and something that I talk about all the time. And there's two, there's two words that I use interchangeably. I should, I should use them more interchangeably, more often. I talk about relationships a lot, and the word that I should use intermixed with that 50% of the time is trust. Cause to me, trust in relationships is kind of the same thing. If you don't have trust, you don't have a relationship. If you don't have a relationship, then you don't have trust.

• 15:50Jocko Willink?

  But they do have different meanings, right?

• 15:54Jocko Willink?

  It's important to me to establish that and the reason that I bring that up is because if you're in a leadership position and you're breaking the trust that you have with your men, that is going to be a real problem. So you could say, well, you don't have a good relationship with them, but you could not have a good relationship with someone and they could still trust you. You could not have a good relationship with someone and you hadn't broken their trust. It's going to be hard if you break their trust to have a good relationship with them. But the key factor here is trust and confidence of the men. Back to the book. Now let us consider on what a man's power to lead others is based.

• 16:36Jocko Willink?

  It is necessary first to define what is meant by leadership. And this is where this gets a little interesting. I suggest to you as the definition of the word leadership, the will to dominate together with the character which inspires confidence. The measure of a man's ability to lead, I think, is twofold. So the first part of the definition of leadership in his mind is the will to dominate, which is, which is, which is strong. And you're going to see where he kind of counters that and he talks about, he talks about decentralized command, he talks about everything that I believe in. But, you know, I don't talk about, hey, as a leader, it's first and foremost that you have the will to dominate other humans, right? That's, that's not, in fact, I think that's

• 17:19Jocko Willink?

  a kind of a negative quality. But that being said,

• 17:24Jocko Willink?

  if you have someone that doesn't mind not winning, not dominating, well, then guess what? They're not going to put forth any effort. They're not going to make things happen.

• 17:38Jocko Willink?

  Like force of will, I talk about that all the time. You, you have to, you have to have the force of will to make things happen. Sometimes you just have to make things happen. They're not going to happen by themselves. Anything that's, anything that's going to come that's good in life, it's not going to happen by itself. It's not going to wake up and it's there like, like an Easter egg. That's not happening. No, you gotta go out and you gotta make it happen. Okay, maybe you get an Easter egg when you're six years old. But once you're 26 years old, there's no Easter eggs coming to you. You gotta make them.

• 18:12Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. First, it lies in his will to dominate the men and events which surround him. The will to drive himself and his men to the limit of their powers for a specific purpose, and the refusal to allow anything to divert him from his aim.

• 18:27Jocko Willink?

  Again, you're gonna see where that sounds so strong. It sounds unbalanced, right? It sounds like he's outside the dichotomy of leadership. He's going too far in one direction. He's being extreme. Like nothing, you're gonna refuse to allow anything to divert you. Okay, so what does that mean? The men you get everyone killed? That's what they did in World War I. He didn't like that. But you're gonna see where he balances out these statements later. Second, it lies in the strength of his character. Whether good or evil, to inspire others to place their complete trust and confidence in him and his ability to lead them with success and to enthuse his men for the task in hand. This ability of a man to inspire confidence in others and to create enthusiasm is a spiritual quality.

• 19:10Jocko Willink?

  But it is not, but it is well to remember that this quality need not necessarily be for good. The evil leader has equally the ability to inspire confidence in others. And in history, the evil leader has often, at any rate temporarily, prevailed.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  And he counters that at the end, too. There have been many with differing, with differing types of characters, character, who have inspired men to follow them. I propose to choose three great captains of the past and examine briefly why these men were leaders and how they led their men, and how as leaders they succeeded or failed. So, he's gonna go into a little case study, a couple pages here.

• 19:54Jocko Willink?

  I will first consider Moses. He was already old when he was called to lead the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt. His task was an immense one. He had first to inspire his people to cast off the yoke of the Egyptians. This was no easy matter. Israel had been living for about 400 years as slaves of the Egyptians. They had lived in the Nile Delta, a bad climate, and one which tends to sap up energy and initiative. But they lived where food was plenteous while all around were deserts which could barely support life. Moses must have had to overcome the most tremendous initial inertia to persuade

• 20:34Jocko Willink?

  Israel to launch out into those deserts with all the risks of famine, disease, and the necessity to fight. His power to inspire and dominate his fellow men must have been of a very high order. Now, see, that's where I just, I don't look at that as domination of your fellow man. You're, I look, I see the inspiring part, but I'm not looking at, hey, we're looking to dominate.

• 20:58Jocko Willink?

  I, I see his angle, right? I see, I see where he's, I see where he's coming from. But, and maybe that word, you know, words change, words morph, morph over time. Maybe that word dominate that he's using, maybe, maybe it had less of a sting to it than, you know, 50 years ago, possibly had a little less sting. 70 years, words change.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:22Jocko Willink?

  Words change over time. But that's what he's saying.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  But things were kind of hardcore too, right? Back then, you know, like a long time ago, there, just things in general were a little bit more blunt.

• 21:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  So maybe there's that.

• 21:37Jocko Willink?

  In the times of Moses, I'm sure they were pretty blunt. And even this time, yeah, yeah.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:41Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, though. I, I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure. I'm not a hundred percent sure if he means the word dominate the way we think of it. The way I think of it.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Apparently not. I mean, it seems like there's a little bit more to it.

• 21:57Jocko Willink?

  I guess, well, when he count, and you'll hear him counter, I guess that's what maybe makes me think maybe he means it a little bit less severe.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:04Jocko Willink?

  Maybe. Because he starts to talk about the, the balance of this dichotomy. Because let's face it, hey, okay, let me ask you this question. Here, this is gonna make it real easy. If I was the type of person that was like, hey, I'm looking to dominate you, come with me into the desert. Where we're gonna have to live, where there's, we're getting away from the Nile River, and we're going out to this barren area where there's not a lot of food, and I'm gonna have a domineering personality and I'm gonna be all over you every day. How enticing is that?

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Not very.

• 22:32Jocko Willink?

  Not very. Now, if I was inspiring, and I said, "Listen, Echo, we're gonna get out there, we're gonna train, we're gonna come back, we're gonna get our revenge, it's gonna take some time, but we're gonna make it," like, that's different, right?

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:43Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what? Now that I'm thinking of it, it would dominate, like, what's the root word of dominate?

• 22:51Jocko Willink?

  You know what it could be? Yeah, I should have studied the etymology before we got on this podcast. I apologize. You know what it could be, though? Picture when you have a good leader that dominates the room, right?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Right, right, yes.

• 23:01Jocko Willink?

  That's a positive thing, right? "Oh, this guy just get you, yeah, you know, Echo came in for the meeting, he just dominated the room, he did great."

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:07Jocko Willink?

  That's a positive thing.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Jocko Willink?

  So maybe he means it that way. Unfortunately, he talks about dominating the will of, right? He talks about dominating the men and events that surround him. Oh, no, actually, he doesn't talk about dominating the will. So maybe that's what they mean. Maybe he means just like this dominating presence.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:30Jocko Willink?

  All right, going back to the book, "Without a doubt, Moses realized that, when he led Israel out of Egypt, they were useless as a fighting people. They'd been slaves for some 400 years. He therefore set to work to train them for the task and to forge the weapon which would conquer Canaan." It's interesting, he talks about the training of armies as forging weapons. Like, you're forging this weapon, I think that's a pretty cool analogy. "I believe that Moses intentionally kept Israel for 40 years in the desert, for two generations, in order to breed and train a fighting race capable of undertaking the task of conquest which lay at hand.

• 24:09Jocko Willink?

  And in that 40 years, he taught them gradually how to fight and conquer. He took meticulous care over their training, and it is most interesting to note his refusal ever to risk any failures into action." This is interesting, and he brings this up quite a bit. So Moses, Moses didn't take any risk where he thought he might fail.

• 24:29Jocko Willink?

  We read of him soon after leaving Egypt, asking if he might lead Israel through the country of another people. On being refused permission, he marches round by another way. But later, when the same situation arises, when Israel is better trained to fight, he leads his people straight through the middle of that country and destroys his enemy utterly. He was a good judge of what Israel was capable of doing and what Israel was not capable of doing, and as a result, he had an unbroken record of military successes. He had the wisdom and the insight into human nature to realize that the best way for a leader to gain confidence

• 25:09Jocko Willink?

  of his soldiers is to give them victories. If a commander gives his soldiers victories, they will follow him anywhere. But Moses was not permitted to see the few fruits of his own work. He sinned by claiming as his own powers which did not belong to him, and for this sin of presumption, he was forced to hand over to Joshua the final conquest of Canaan, for which he had so well-trained the children of Israel. So there he wraps up on Moses. And he kind of refers back to this point later in this book, is the fact that you've got to be, you've got to push for victory, right? You've got to push for victory, and

• 25:52Jocko Willink?

  this is, it's almost like risk aversion, right? Which I'm not a fan of, and you can't be risk averse, but you've got to be calculated. Back to the book, and in the next section, he is going to talk about Cromwell. He just refers to him as Cromwell, Oliver Cromwell, Cromwell, who was an English statesman, but he was a soldier. This is like in the 1600s, 1620s. He was a hardcore Puritan, and he

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  organized military forces in the, when the Civil War broke out, 1642. He was the deputy commander of the new model army. He defeated the main royalist force in 1645, and then he commanded campaigns in Ireland and Scotland in the 1650s.

• 26:56Jocko Willink?

  He was kind of over the top, I guess you might say in some ways, I mean, beyond that, he, he massacred, there was an Irish massacre, you know, and that spiraled into a war for hundreds of years. And, and ultimately, as a politician, once he kind of got done with the war part, he became a politician, and he really didn't do a great job. So that's just some kind of highlights of Oliver Cromwell. But here we go, back to the book, "I next propose to consider Cromwell another leader who went to wage war only when he was over middle age." He was over 40 when the Civil War broke out. "He started the Civil War in command of

• 27:38Jocko Willink?

  a troop of 60 men, and then commanded of that troop, he fought at Edge Hill. There, in spite of the parliamentary superiority in men and guns, and fervently held cause, he saw the failure of his own side to seize the victory, and he saw them escape defeat only because of the folly of their opponents." This gave him much cause for thought. "Superiority in men and equipment was clearly valueless unless something further was added." This is the part that I kind of got fired up for. What was needed also, so besides guns, good superiority in men, superiority in equipment, what was needed also was the leader who would

• 28:21Jocko Willink?

  forge the weapon out of the enthusiastic material available, and would then lead it with vigor and determination, determination to achieve his military end. So once again, we're talking about what leader can take this, what leader can forge a weapon from men. "He saw too the nature of the weapon required, and how it could be forged. So he started to understand the, the men as a weapon, and how you could forge this weapon properly. And he set himself to task, to the task of building a force after his own principles, based on a high fighting spirit, spirit, good discipline, and a sound knowledge of tactics."

• 29:07Jocko Willink?

  It was to be a force which would have have complete confidence in him as their commander. So this guy saw this situation where they almost got crushed. The parliamentary forces were so disorganized that they couldn't even take advantage of it. And he saw, okay, this is my opportunity. And those are great lessons. I love it when you learn a lesson. That you didn't really have to pay for. It happens sometimes. It happens in MMA sometimes. Where you guy wins a fight because something you get lucky in the end and you get, oh, we got the W. But we also got to learn a great, a great lesson. It happened in combat all the time. You come back off an operation, you're like, man, if we would have gotten hit at this particular moment. We had, security was down. We were not paying attention. We didn't have this flank covered.

• 29:50Jocko Willink?

  And by the grace of God, we didn't get contacted from that area. But we can't let that happen again. So sometimes you learn a lesson, even though you didn't have to pay for it. And that's what it sounds like happened here. Back to the book, he set about his task full, we are told, of a furious zeal. A fire in his belly which compelled him, which compelled others to follow him. He had complete confidence in his ability to gain success in war. He saw the way in which he had to train his men to fight. And the few essentials which would ensure success provided his men had the right fighting spirit. Edgehill was fought in October 1642 with Cromwell as a captain of a troop of horse 60 strong. By January 1644.

• 30:35Jocko Willink?

  He was a lieutenant general, second in command of Manchester's army of the eastern counties. The leading cavalry commander on the parliamentary side. And the one outstanding commander in the parliamentary army. So he made a rapid transition. Now he gets into this. Cromwell was not a likable man. He was quick tempered, believed in rigid discipline and constant training. And he drove his men hard, but he believed with a blinding certainty. In the righteousness of his cause. He infused his soldiers with its righteousness. And he was convinced of his own ability to succeed, to achieve success in battle. This is one of those things where.

• 31:20Jocko Willink?

  You know, when you hear that people that Monty was a little bit like lacked tact, this is one of those things where I think, well, did he read this? You know, did he read about Cromwell and study Cromwell and say, well, look, no one liked Cromwell?

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:32Jocko Willink?

  That's okay. You can still be a good leader. You don't have to be liked.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:35Jocko Willink?

  In fact, Leif will tell this story. There was a guy that was was Leif was teaching a class to young SEALs and there was a SEAL officer that would come in and say, you shouldn't be liked if you're in charge.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:51Jocko Willink?

  And Leif, you know, would sit in the back of the room and think to himself, geez, this is not good. Because that's not true. That's not true. Now, it's probably true that what the guy was trying to say is, listen, you're not always going to be popular for you. Your goal should not be to be liked.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:09Jocko Willink?

  Which I agree with.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:11Jocko Willink?

  But to say, look, you're going to be hated by your troops. That's just the way it is. And that's wrong. If you're hated by your troops, you're probably doing something wrong.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And to say that if you're essentially the what the guy that Leif's talking about, if he's saying if you're liked by your troops, you're doing something wrong. Kind of thing.

• 32:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true too.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  It's what it feels like.

• 32:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, so I understand that thought as well, like, hey, everyone loves me. I must be doing a good job. It's like, no, actually, if everyone just thinks you're their buddy, that's a problem. So that this may have been what this officer was trying to teach to the to the young officers that that Leif was in charge of instructing. I'm sure he tried to was trying to say the right thing, but perhaps he wasn't articulating it a hundred percent in the most clear way where the guy, because just tell, hey, you're not going to be liked where you're an officer. Not true. Not true. And not good. If I have, if I look at a SEAL platoon and the SEAL platoon doesn't like their officer, that's not a positive sign. That does not mean that guy's a good leader.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  Now, it's also not a good sign if, oh, the SEAL platoon, everyone loves him. That doesn't mean it's a good, good platoon either.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:20Jocko Willink?

  So you can be loved, but you're not doing a good job. You can be hated. And you can be no good job, but you're probably not going to be able to pull off doing a good job. When guys don't like you, they're not going to put forth any real effort to to make you look good is basically what they're doing.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And at the end of the day, it obviously seems like it's just not that cut and dry.

• 33:40Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  You know?

• 33:42Jocko Willink?

  No. Back to the book, and he did achieve success. He had no failures. And if a commander has a righteous cause and gives his soldiers success, he will gain the complete confidence of his men, and then there is nothing he cannot do. But the power,

• 34:01Jocko Willink?

  which his prowess in the field had won for him, led Cromwell to seize the reins of government for himself. He became impatient with the inefficiency methods, inefficiency of the parliamentary government of those days, and he compared it unfavorably with his own ability as a soldier to give immediate decision and to see it take shape at once in action. So he took over the government and he wanted things to move real quick.

• 34:30Jocko Willink?

  But

• 34:32Jocko Willink?

  unfortunately, but as in battle, he had been sure of the correct course of action. So in the political field, he was on many occasions uncertain and perplexed during the period in which he ruled England. He tried out five different systems of government and all failed. And at the end, he was governing alone and much more absolutely than ever Charles had attempted to rule. Internally, he taxed the people more highly and he disregarded Parliament more brazenly than Charles had ever done, and he interfered with the personal liberty more tyrannously. In Ireland also, his harsh and cruel policy left a lasting hatred which the centuries have not quenched.

• 35:16Jocko Willink?

  But his rule was not wholly unproductive. He made the fighting service. So he did accomplish one thing. He made the fighting services the finest in the world, and he gained for England a voice in the affairs of Europe such as England had never had before. So he was not a good governmental leader.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  Many of his triumphs abroad were transient and unsubstantial, and much that he attempted at home disappeared when he died. But his work for the Navy and its initial steps toward the creation of an empire planted a foundation from which much has grown. So

• 35:53Jocko Willink?

  he had a good impact on the military, but his governmental, his governmental leading abilities weren't all that strong.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  The third great captain I suppose to, I propose to consider is Napoleon. A leader driven by selfish and evil ambition. That's interesting. And not like the other two in pursuit of a great ideal. Unlike the other two, he was a soldier by profession. Trained from his youth in the profession of arms, even as a very young boy in a military academy. He was clearly a leader. He wished to dominate and he did dominate his fellow men. There it is. That one sounds a little stronger. That sounds a little bit more like what I think of dominate. Again, unlike the other two, he rose at a very early age to a high and independent command. At the age of 26, he took command of the Army of Italy.

• 36:47Jocko Willink?

  And army inferior numbers and equipment to its opponents and semi muteness. From lack of pay, yet within a year with this inferior weapon, which he reforged to his liking. He fought brilliantly, a brilliantly successful campaign in Northern Italy and imposed peace on his enemy. I like that imposed peace on his enemies.

• 37:10Jocko Willink?

  From the moment of his arrival with his army, he dominated his troops, both generals and soldiers, and inspired them with confidence in his ability to give them success. Of that ability, he himself had never any doubt. And in his own self-confidence, lay much of his power to inspire confidence in others. Behind this dominating self-confidence, however, lay Napoleon's ability to see in any military problem, the few essentials on which success would depend.

• 37:45Jocko Willink?

  He had the great power to simplify any problem and to see what details were important and which were unimportant. There you go. That's prioritize and execute, and it's simple, both in one big rule, right? You've got to know what's important. You've got to prioritize the important things and you've got to keep everything simple.

• 38:06Jocko Willink?

  I got a, I got an email from Sarah Armstrong. Sure.

• 38:12Jocko Willink?

  Talking about podcast one seventy four, trying to be a five oh. Trying to be a five oh in all categories. And she basically emailed me and said, hey, heads up.

• 38:26Jocko Willink?

  I used to try and be a five oh in every category, even in categories that didn't matter. So that's, you know, give people heads up. And I was like, well, yeah, I mean, I've talked about, I've talked about that. I talk about it with clients all the time, but I talk about on the podcast as well. When specifically I talked about it. Saying, I don't know if you remember this example, I said, a black belt in jujitsu. Like, they don't care where you're grabbing their sleeve and you're getting all crazy. They don't care. That doesn't matter.

• 38:56Jocko Willink?

  If you're a white belt, someone grabs your sleeve, you're freaking out.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:58Jocko Willink?

  But if you're, if you're a black belt, it's like, okay, if you're a good leader and there's some, some, some issue that guys are complaining about, it's no factor. You don't care. And then there's some issues that come up and you go, okay, that's important. I need to address that. So this is what he had the ability to do is figure what is essential and what is not.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that can be kind of a tricky one because you know, some, some things are super small, super small. But at the end of the day, they might be kind of important.

• 39:25Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  You know, like you can sort of predict, you're like, hey, that's small. Sure. But hey, I could see that like continuing and growing, you know?

• 39:33Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Something there like that.

• 39:34Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes all you have to do is monitor it to make sure it doesn't grow.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:38Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you have to put it in check for sure. Sometimes you have to destroy something, remove it, kill it.

• 39:45Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you can't worry about it because it's not important. So you gotta figure which one of those out.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Like if your employee, say you're a boss, your employee comes in one minute late. Let's say he comes in on time every single time, like, but right on, he has to get there at six, he gets there at six on the dot every single day. And then like one week on Monday comes in at six oh one.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Is that a big problem?

• 40:12Jocko Willink?

  One day? No, it's not a problem. You, you might wanna throw a little something at me.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Right, it's something.

• 40:18Jocko Willink?

  Little something.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  It's not nothing, yeah.

• 40:20Jocko Willink?

  Just a little something. That's what, you know, you might even wanna say something like along this, probably what I'd say. See what happens when you cut it so close every day. You're already a little, you, you missed it by a minute, bro.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 40:30Jocko Willink?

  Right, that's, just throw a little, a little, yeah, just let them know you're watching.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like I said, like, some things, they're teeny, but they're worth monitoring.

• 40:38Jocko Willink?

  Am I gonna give a dude a written counseling, cuz they were one minute late? No.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:42Jocko Willink?

  Cuz now the guy's looking for a different job somewhere, cuz he doesn't wanna work for me.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you spaz out on him. But at the same time, he's at six oh one, he's like, cool. Next day, he comes in at six o'clock, we'll say next day. Then the next Monday, he comes in at six oh two. Oh, two, no, it's just one more minute, right?

• 41:01Jocko Willink?

  Gotta put it in check.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 41:02Jocko Willink?

  Just a little something.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Saying like some things, they seem small, but you, you take a broader view, and you're like, hey, it's kinda important.

• 41:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, this goes back to the troops shaving in, the Soviet troops stopping shaving, this is it. This is the slippery slope of a lack of discipline.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Slip, yeah.

• 41:19Jocko Willink?

  But, I can tell you this, if you're focused only on these little things, you might miss the big picture, which was Sarah's point.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:30Jocko Willink?

  And I responded, I said, hey, I totally agreed with her, talked about some of the, the black belt thing, and then the boss thing, and then I was like, and by the way, cuz this is something I've talked about. The floor in my garage gym is not clean.

• 41:47Jocko Willink?

  It, it gets a two point oh on cleanliness.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Out of what, five?

• 41:52Jocko Willink?

  Out of five.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 41:53Jocko Willink?

  Maybe even gets a one.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  I think one, man.

• 41:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, maybe gets a, no, no, no. However, however, it gets like a one point five. Cuz it's not, it's, it's not, it doesn't have actual dirt on it.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:04Jocko Willink?

  It's just got, it's just got chalk and sweat stains.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:10Jocko Willink?

  Dried up.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Utility, not, not neglect, but, you know.

• 42:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. And I said, it would take twenty minutes to a half an hour each day to keep that thing at a five point oh inspection ready level. Cuz what you gotta get in there in space, basically you gotta power wash that thing daily. That's where you're at.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:27Jocko Willink?

  So, I'm not power washing that thing daily. Why don't it, why is it, why is it not clean? Not important. Do I, I have, I actually have a vacuum in my garage that I.

• 42:39Jocko Willink?

  Hit it with, sometimes I hit it every two, three days.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:42Jocko Willink?

  That's a lot different than breaking out, than, than pulling the mats out, power washing them in the alley.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:49Jocko Willink?

  And then bringing them back in. That's a, that's not even a half an hour. That's like a, that's a serious evolution.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:56Jocko Willink?

  That's a serious evolution. So is it worth being a 5.0 in mat cleanliness garage gym? The answer is no. The answer is no. It's not worth it. Need to lower that on the priority scale. Now, do I have big chunks of dirt and, and dog hair piled up and debris? No. It's completely debris free.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 43:22Jocko Willink?

  But there are some sweat stains on it. There has been, there's, there are the remnants of getting after it.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Sure. Right. Which is kind of conducive can be.

• 43:30Jocko Willink?

  The way it is.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what's the standard then, generally speaking, not just an application to your garage gym floor? To like everything. It's like little things. I mean, just a basic little, little framework to establish.

• 43:43Jocko Willink?

  It depends on the thing.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, but what is, so you can go, so you go fundamentally then. So what is it like? If it, if it gets in the way, even if this much, even if this little millimeter gets in the way of the overall objective, then it's relevant? Important?

• 43:58Jocko Willink?

  Well, no, then we just have to frame it so that we're not, we, we, we frame it as a waste of time. Like how much effort are you going to put into that?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  There's no.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  If it's not, if it doesn't get in the way.

• 44:09Jocko Willink?

  If it, no, no, if it gets in the way, then I'm putting too much time. If, if it gets in the way of my strategic goal. Uh, it's, I'm putting too much time into it.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. If solving this particular problem gets in the way. Yes, yes. Okay, okay. But I meant the existing of a small little problem. If it's, if it's get, gets in the way. So like.

• 44:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, if it gets in the way, then it's a problem.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Right. A hundred percent. Yeah. So if it does, like, um, like the guy coming in late, right?

• 44:33Jocko Willink?

  Let's say on my garage floor, there was chunks of rocks underneath the mats.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:41Jocko Willink?

  And they made it uneven.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:43Jocko Willink?

  And it was like slightly hazardous for me to be moving around on it. And it interrupted and my weights rolled around. That'd be a problem.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:53Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's affecting my strategic goal.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:56Jocko Willink?

  Those mats are getting picked up. The rocks are getting moved. The floor is getting leveled and we're good to go.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:01Jocko Willink?

  On the, on this levelness, my mats get a 5-0. They're perfectly flat.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 45:07Jocko Willink?

  They're good to go.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 45:08Jocko Willink?

  They do not interfere at all. But they got some getting after it stains on them.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Yep, there it is. Boom.

• 45:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay, going back to the book, having grasped the essentials of the problem and having inspired his soldiers with confidence in himself and with high morale, he knew he could not fail. Napoleon, however, was always as much a politician as a soldier. He had a great love of intrigue and of diplomatic bargaining and his contempt for his fellow men and his passion to dominate them. And events led him to aspire to greater things. From the time he became first consul, political rather than military factors influenced his decisions.

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  And his failure to reconcile his political aspirations with what was militarily possible finally led him to the disasters of Moscow and the peninsula, from which no recovery was possible. He started playing that political game, started making his military decisions based on what he wanted to happen politically. Now, what did these three men, Moses Cromwell and Napoleon, have in common without which they would have not achieved success? The most outstanding similarity was that they dominated their fellow men. They were all supremely confident that they could and would do what they set out to do.

• 46:42Jocko Willink?

  It was quite simple to them, quite easy, and success was absolutely certain. This certainty gave them each the power to inspire others to follow blindly and to the limit of their strength. And this inspiration and power to enthuse others immeasurably increased the power of their forces to achieve whatever was asked of them. That's called confidence right there. That's what that is. Pure confidence. Isn't it, isn't it interesting when you see someone that's ultra confident? And like not, no, they're not even overflowing into ego, but they're just really, really confident. And. And people follow them. People will be like, okay, I'm on board. This, this, this person's in the game. They believe it. I'm, I believe it too.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  You know, I've seen situations where people are so confident that people are following them even though they're wrong. You know, you get, you would get that occasionally with a, with a SEAL platoon. You'd get some experienced guy that was super confident. And he actually wasn't that good or didn't really understand tactics too well. And he's, no, this is what we're doing. Yeah. You know, so I've done this a million times. It's, it's all, by the way, that's a red flag.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  What?

• 47:52Jocko Willink?

  When somebody, when somebody counts on their number of times or their experience, that's the way we've always done it. I've done this a million times. That's a red flag. The reason that they're using those statements is because they don't have an actual answer. So when one of the new guys says, hey, hey boss, I'm not really sure why we, why are we assaulting, you know, through the target from this area over here? Wouldn't it make more sense to? And he goes, oh, look, I've done this a million times. This is how we're doing it. You just think yourself, oh, so you don't have an actual answer. You don't have an answer as to why you're, you're just throwing that out there. That's the easiest thing for you to do. So if you ever find yourself saying, because this is how we've always done it, or look, I've been doing this for 28 years.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:31Jocko Willink?

  No, you know, that's, you don't have a good answer. You're wrong.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  That could work against you to be honest with you. Yeah, I've been doing this for 28 years. And then like that day, the person figures out like a way better way of doing it. You're like, dang, bro, you've been wasting your time for 28 years?

• 48:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. It could definitely work out bad. It could work out bad because you're not listening to anyone else. You're not taking input and then you end up making a bad decision.

• 48:56Jocko Willink?

  From what did these men get their supreme confidence in their ability to achieve their purpose in battle? I think they got it from their ability to see their problem in its simplest form. Amen. I totally agree with that. To see the few essentials necessary to the successful solution of the problem and to see how those few essentials could be achieved. This is why, so I, I'm always talking about qualities of leadership, the ability to simplify. I'm sure you've heard me say this a thousand times. If you have the ability to simplify things, that's a great asset to have and not everyone has it, or not everyone has the same level of it. Some people are good at it. Some people not so much. Some people just straight up complicate things.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:40Jocko Willink?

  Once they grasped the essentials of the problem, they never lost sight of them and never allowed a mass of detail to submerge what was essential to success. Boom. Don't get caught up in the little details of things. Don't let those things drown out what the real situation is.

• 50:00Jocko Willink?

  For all military problems are in essence, simple. But the ability to simplify and to select out of the mass of detail, those things and only those things that are important is not always so easy.

• 50:15Jocko Willink?

  So, gotta keep things simple. Each of these men had the power to dominate other men's spirits, to inspire their enthusiasm, and to convince them of their own ability to achieve what was asked of them. This moving of men's spirits, this power to enthuse could only be done and was only done by their personal contact with their men. All my three examples were in close and frequent contact with their troops. They were well-known, familiarly known to them, and took frequent opportunities of talking to their men. So again, this is where that, the thing I spoke of earlier where it's like, he kinda, he kinda comes back on, hey, you gotta be this dominating person, but he's

• 51:00Jocko Willink?

  talking about, you gotta get out there and talk to your troops. You gotta be really, truly personally known to them.

• 51:05Jocko Willink?

  Napoleon and Cromwell certainly, and very possibly Moses too, were known to their men by nicknames and used this familiarity to help their purpose. At the same time, each of these leaders knew well what the soldier was thinking and what he wanted most, and they made always careful study of the human factor. Now, it's interesting because, you know, Monty, he's known as Monty. Everybody called him Monty.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:32Jocko Willink?

  And that's his nickname.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:33Jocko Willink?

  And that little breeds a little familiarity.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:36Jocko Willink?

  And like, I stole naming a unit, renaming a unit when you took it over, I stole that from David Hackworth. I wonder if Crom, I wonder if Monty stole this nickname idea and kinda gave himself that nickname, right?

• 51:50Speaker 01

  I wonder if Hackworth took it from Monty.

• 51:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, no Hackworth. Well, actually, I guess Hackworth. Everyone just called Hack Hack. Hey, everyone called me Jaco.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:58Jocko Willink?

  Like, everyone. It's funny, someone said, everyone in the chain of command, the, the people below me in the chain of command, called me Jaco, and the people above me in the chain of command called me Jaco. Everyone called me Jaco.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:08Jocko Willink?

  So that, that was kinda cool, but that was just like coincidence. I don't even know why.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:12Jocko Willink?

  But

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  Hackworth, he didn't really, I don't think Hackworth gave himself a nickname.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:21Jocko Willink?

  And let's face it, Hackworth, other than Hackworth, and as, as General Mukuyama told us, he had the best nickname of all time, Mr. Infantry.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:32Jocko Willink?

  That is the coolest nickname ever.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Is Hack considered a nickname?

• 52:35Jocko Willink?

  I think so.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  If it's short for your

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  I think it is, yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause there are certain names that have an official shortening of it, you know, like Richard and Rick, or

• 52:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  you know, Jonathan and John.

• 52:47Jocko Willink?

  Robert and Bob.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Bob, yes, exactly. Bill and William and Bill, all that.

• 52:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  So

• 52:52Jocko Willink?

  But Hack is unofficial.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Right, it's unofficial, so it's sorta, it, it goes into the realm of actual nickname. Not just shortening of the name.

• 52:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the

• 53:01Jocko Willink?

  But I, I think, I, we, we can research this. It's not coming to me off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure everyone called Hack Hack.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:09Jocko Willink?

  Like, up and down the chain of command.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:11Jocko Willink?

  Although his soldiers back in the day probably called him sir. That's more normal for Vietnam.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Dang, how do you engineer a nickname, though, for yourself?

• 53:18Jocko Willink?

  No, you can't do that.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Well, you can't give your nickname to yourself, no, but you can, I'm sure, there has to be a way to sort of engineer the environment.

• 53:25Jocko Willink?

  You could say, hey, I'm Hack, how's it going?

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that, isn't that, I mean, if, it would have to be established before that. If you just start, like, if I just start saying, hey, I'm Dragon.

• 53:35Jocko Willink?

  No, if you, if you checked into a military unit, or you, and no one knew you, and you're like, hey, what's up? I'm, I'm, I'm Dragon Boy.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but

• 53:43Jocko Willink?

  That would be, no, that wouldn't work.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 53:45Jocko Willink?

  But if you said, hey, my, my name is, you know, Frag Mob, or whatever. You just made up, you know, your nickname, all guys call me that, yeah, one, once I hucked a grenade and it, and it rolled back and, you know, yeah.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  But what if that's not true, though? You know, like, that would mean, if, look, if you hooked a grenade in a thing and someone called you Frag Mob from then, then on, then boom, someone gave you that nickname.

• 54:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  But you can't huck a grenade, it does whatever it is that it does, and be like, you know what? I should be called, you know, you can't really do that.

• 54:14Jocko Willink?

  No, you're not allowed to nickname yourself.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  No, so even if you introduce yourself, if no one knows you, introduce yourself, okay, I'm Dragon Boy, but I just gave that name to myself today and but and they find, sure, they'll call you Dragon Boy. But if one person finds out, oh, you just gave yourself that nickname.

• 54:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  They're gonna be like, oh, yeah, oh, you're somebody else. Yes, sir.

• 54:34Jocko Willink?

  Real quick.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  So how do you do it, though?

• 54:35Jocko Willink?

  No, you don't. You don't.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  You just gotta let it.

• 54:37Jocko Willink?

  That's what I think is important. What's important here is that the familiarity isn't a lie. The familiarity is real.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:43Jocko Willink?

  That's the difference.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  I know how you do it.

• 54:45Jocko Willink?

  How?

• 54:45Speaker 01

  It's not ju- it's not hundred percent you. It's more allowing nicknames to be, you know how like, you know, some people, their name, I don't know, for just for example, hypothetical example, like, let's say it's like, hey, my name's, Jonathan.

• 54:59Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  And then, you know, in a casual conversation, hey, John, what's up, John? And then they'll be like, hey, it's like, no disrespect or nothing, but it's Jonathan. Like, they prefer the whole thing. Maybe, well, John's more of an official one, but like, if Hackworth would have said, hey, it's Hackworth. It's not Hack. Then he probably wouldn't have had the name Hack.

• 55:17Jocko Willink?

  That's true.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  So when someone busts out a nickname for you, you just gotta let it fly.

• 55:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, I'll tell you, in the teams, when they bust out a nickname for you, if you protest it, it's gonna stick even.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 55:27Jocko Willink?

  Even more.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  So you could essentially, in theory.

• 55:30Jocko Willink?

  Fake protest.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Actively protest. Exactly right.

• 55:33Jocko Willink?

  But they'd see right through that.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  I know, right?

• 55:35Jocko Willink?

  And they'd be like, oh, you like it called that? Fine. Yeah, we're gonna give you a different nickname now. Jag ass.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  You gotta be quick. You gotta be sneaky with it, I guess.

• 55:44Jocko Willink?

  All right. Okay, back to the book. If a leader neglects the human factor, he will fail. No man can lead others if he does not know what they are thinking and feeling. So, again,

• 56:01Jocko Willink?

  we got Monty here, who kind of talks like he's all aloof and everything, but he knows you gotta know your people and you gotta understand people. And then he goes on, little shift here. No leader, however great, can can can long continue unless he wins victories.

• 56:17Jocko Willink?

  Without victories in battle, all else is useless. To what, then, is success in battle due? In his great study of Marlborough, Mr. Winston Churchill says very truly, and so here's a little quote from Winston Churchill, and this is interesting. He's talking about the Duke of Marlborough, who was a. Another guy in the 1600s that fought in the war of Spanish succession. This guy never lost a battle, apparently. And interesting, he was the Duke of Marlborough, but his actual name was John Churchill. And he is actually, I want to say the great, great, maybe great grandfather of Winston Churchill. So this is Winston Churchill's bloodline.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 57:03Jocko Willink?

  And this is what Winston Churchill says about his great, great, however many great grandfathers. And I think that's right.

• 57:10Jocko Willink?

  "The success of a commander does not arise from following rules or models." It doesn't come from following rules or models. "It consists in an absolutely new comprehension of the dominant facts of the situation at a time and all the forces at work. Every great operation of war is unique. What is wanted is a profound appreciation of the actual event. There is no surer road to disaster than to imitate the plans of bygone heroes and to fit them to novel situations." So, there you go. This ability to absolutely comprehend this new situation.

• 57:54Jocko Willink?

  And to not try and force, not try and force a rule or a model to work for you in a certain situation.

• 58:04Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, this indeed is true. "For in no war, for in war, no two situations are ever the same and each situation must be tackled as a wholly new problem to which there will likely be a wholly new answer. You need only to look at the beginning of this war and to, and to the trust put in the Maginot Line. Here indeed was there a failure to appreciate the new and changed technique which had risen and one which rendered such fortifications in themselves wholly useless."

• 58:39Jocko Willink?

  To win victories, certain qualities are necessary, and I will mention four, which were possessed in greater or less by all the great captains of history. These are the knowledge of the technique of making war. So that's interesting because Churchill just said, look, it's not using this previous knowledge, you gotta be able to apply it. But at the same time, guess what? You've gotta have the knowledge of the technique of making war. Next, the ability to see clearly the few essentials that are important to success. Next, courage and mental robustness. And lastly, a well-balanced judgment.

• 59:19Jocko Willink?

  He kind of goes through these in a little bit more detail now. "The manner in which war is waged varies from age to age and with the advent of each new weapon. It is a constantly changing, constantly evolving thing. He who aspires to high command in war must thoroughly understand the main principles, which will dictate the manner in which the battle of his age will be fought. He also must be constantly on the watch for new ideas or weapons which will affect those principles. The speed of change in military science during time of peace is often slow, and many have consequently allowed themselves to be lulled into false sense of security, which has been rudely shattered on the outbreak of war." So guess what? You gotta have an open mind.

• 1:00:05Jocko Willink?

  And you gotta pay attention.

• 1:00:08Jocko Willink?

  "The knowledge of how to make war also implies the ability to train troops. Every great commander has himself had to forge his weapon for the task in front of him. Moses led the people of Israel for forty years in the desert, teaching them how to fight, and he forged the weapon to conquer Canaan. So also Cromwell and Napoleon, they forged their own weapon for the specific task in hand, improvising and inventing as they went along, so as to develop new tactics to deal with the new problems with which, in their day, they were faced."

• 1:00:45Jocko Willink?

  So you've got to study war, you've got to understand how to train your troops. Continuing on, no man can be a great military leader unless he has the ability to cut through overlying difficulties and to see clearly the few essentials in any problem which with which he is faced. In any problem, there are never more than a few essentials which are vital to that problem. That's a pretty bold statement and it's also pretty true.

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  You get these big problems, guess what, there's only a few things that are truly essential. Now, as you solve the first couple essential ones, there's going to be the next essential problem. This is prioritized and executed.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's kind of simple too, right?

• 1:01:28Jocko Willink?

  And simple, yes, like they're both wrapped together in this thought. These must be grasped out of the massive details and must never be lost sight of. If in battle a commander loses sight of the few essentials that matter, he will suffer defeat. So when you're getting distracted by these other things, you're gonna end up losing.

• 1:01:50Jocko Willink?

  But to see the essentials clearly, he must not himself get too immersed in detail. Every great commander has had a chief of staff whose main task was the mastery of detail, thus leaving his master free to tackle essentials of the problem together with those details and only tho- those details which were vital to that problem. Boom.

• 1:02:10Jocko Willink?

  That's it. You cannot get in the weeds. You cannot micromanage. You cannot look at a plan all day and expect that you're gonna see something that your troops didn't see who were doing the planning. You need to step back. You need to elevate yourself.

• 1:02:24Jocko Willink?

  For though there is much detail in which the for though there is much detail with which a commander cannot and must not bother himself, it is interesting to note that every great commander has always concerned himself with certain of the details of his problems.

• 1:02:40Jocko Willink?

  Napoleon and Wellington are two good cases in point. No man can rise to a high command who is not the quality of courage. The highest form of personal courage is required rather in the leader at the lower level, who has to plunge into the turmoil of the battlefield. So yeah, if you're in the frontline troops, you need even more courage. The leader at the higher levels has to develop his quality of courage into a mental robustness, which can withstand the mental stress and strain with which he will be assailed.

• 1:03:16Jocko Willink?

  He must at all times, he must be able at all times to take a dispassionate view of the good and bad fortune which will assail him.

• 1:03:29Jocko Willink?

  Read that one again. He must be able at all times to take a dispassionate view of the good and bad fortune which will assail him. So look, bad things are gonna happen, good things are gonna happen.

• 1:03:43Jocko Willink?

  Don't get all excited when some, you get all excited, you gotta be dispassionate, you gotta detach. You can't let your emotions start getting crazy. You have to detach. He must not allow himself to be distracted by events or to be led astray from his main purpose by some glittering prize.

• 1:04:02Jocko Willink?

  He must at all times maintain an unbiased view of the situation. And in battle, he must be able to judge the true value of the mass of good and bad tidings which will flow upon him.

• 1:04:14Jocko Willink?

  Man, stay detached, stay level headed, good or bad.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  Is that kinda like when like, you know how you get the, the husband or the boyfriend or whatever that like, you know, does something bad? I don't know.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Flirts with a girl or something like that, girl, girlfriends all mad. And then, so the guy goes and buys her like a necklace, you know, to say sorry, something like that, right? Where, don't get all caught up in the glittery stuff because, you know.

• 1:04:43Jocko Willink?

  No, that's not what this is like. This is like this, Echo's saving up to buy a house.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Jocko Willink?

  And, and he's saving up and he's like, okay, I saved, you know, eight hundred bucks last month. I'm gonna save twelve hundred bucks this month. I'm gonna save nine hundred bucks this month. And all of a sudden you see a, a new car.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  With rims.

• 1:05:01Jocko Willink?

  And, and with has rims. And you can get it, you can lease it.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:08Jocko Willink?

  And all you need to lease it is,

• 1:05:11Jocko Willink?

  you know, four thousand dollars.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Jocko Willink?

  And you're like, you know what? I'm gonna go get that. That's the shiny new thing. They just took you off your main goal.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:05:20Jocko Willink?

  This has nothing to do with flirting girlfriends and buying necklaces, bro.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Well, I think yours is a better example.

• 1:05:28Jocko Willink?

  I think so. Yours wasn't even an example. You missed the point.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, I'm trying to think of where it would be. Oh, yeah. I mean, so if we're gonna talk like a girl that was saving for a house.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:40Jocko Willink?

  And then she saw a cool necklace, that would have been a good example.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Jocko Willink?

  But the flirting girl with the distraction from the boyfriend, no, that's, that's a whole new situation.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Here's how I would try to connect the dots on that one, where, you know, the girl's like, hey, her mission is to evaluate whether or not this is the good boyfriend, straight up. And then, so the boyfriend, he does some stuff that's fundamentally bad, cheats on her, I don't know, whatever. And, and then, you know, so she's sort of on that mission, she's sort of making the evaluation, then boom, she gets distracted by the sparkly necklace, boom, she goes back to him, blah, blah, blah, so you're saying? Still bad?

• 1:06:11Jocko Willink?

  Not, not quite, not quite, bro. I mean, a good, good effort. Good effort.

• 1:06:18Jocko Willink?

  Uh, moving on. Every battle resolves itself into a tussle between the wills of the two opposing commanders. Unless he is mentally robust, a commander will not be able to force his will on his opponent. It is well for a commander to remember that no battle was ever lost until the commander thought it so.

• 1:06:41Jocko Willink?

  No battle was ever lost until the commander thought it so.

• 1:06:46Jocko Willink?

  A commander must have a well-balanced judgment. We're getting to the balance of the dichotomies here. Both on the battle situation and in his dealings with his subordinates. This is straight up dichotomy of leadership. He must, okay, now, he must see the battle situation as constantly shifting interplay of forces. And he must instinctively know when to be rash and when to be cautious. Boom, gotta be balanced. He must weigh up the situation both at the moment and as it may develop in the future. And he must so fight his battle that the enemy's reactions cannot upset his plan. And although he is trying to force his will on his opponent,

• 1:07:28Jocko Willink?

  a commander must know when discretion is the better part of valor. His desire to dominate his opponent must not outweigh his judgment of the actual possibilities of the situation. Yes, you gotta be aggressive, but you can't be foolhardy. That's what we're saying here. This is the dichotomy of leadership. His judgment must always be well-balanced. And if it is so, and if he has good information on which to base it, he can so force the battle his way that the enemy will be forced to conform. He will, in fact, have rested the initiative from the enemy. In his dealings with his subordinates,

• 1:08:09Jocko Willink?

  he will also require good judgment and sound knowledge of human nature. He must choose his subordinates well, those with whom he is in frequent contact. His senior generals must know personally. He must know personally and well. He must be able to judge when to drive and when to persuade, when to be stern, when to give praise. For all men are different and each requires handling in a different way. So, right there, he just talked about the dichotomy of leadership, right? When to drive and when to persuade. When to be stern, when to be give praise, gotta balance those dichotomies. The three leaders whom I have concerned, considered succeeded so long as they kept in their mind their clear military purpose and were not deflected from it by any other

• 1:08:54Jocko Willink?

  considerations. But there is always the danger that other and especially political considerations will be forced, will force the hand of the soldier and lead into some action which is militarily unwise. Many battles have been fought for political and not for military reasons, and these have been the graveyard of many a soldier's reputation. The soldier is the servant of the statesman and is therefore bound to be subject to political pressure. He must be strong enough to resist such pressure whenever it conflicts with his clear military purpose. Few statesmen will force the hand of the soldier if the soldier very bluntly says,

• 1:09:39Jocko Willink?

  "If I fight as you wish me to fight, I shall lose the battle. If I fight in my own way and in my own time, I shall win the battle." So there you go, that's what you gotta do. You gotta call it like you see it. But the soldier must be prepared to be very blunt, and he must be prepared to stake his whole reputation on success if given adequate resources and a free hand. And he also must be prepared to be very firm and to refuse to be forced to do something which he considers is not capable of being done. So there you have it. If you don't think something can be done, it's your moral obligation to say no. And of course, you have to weigh that with the fact that if you don't do it, someone

• 1:10:23Jocko Willink?

  else might, and they might cause even more damage. So you have to weigh that, that conundrum.

• 1:10:33Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. In history, the military leader has frequently been tempted and has frequently succumbed to the temptation to aspire to political leadership.

• 1:10:43Jocko Willink?

  The whole training and experience of the soldier makes him less, rather than more, fitted to be a politician. So this is, this is an interesting contrast. The soldier is trained to take direct action down certain well-defined lines and has in his hand a military machine which responds immediately and with precision to his touch. The politician is trained in subtlety and debate, in weighing up the conflicting interests of his supporters and usually has to compromise. The governmental machine is much less precise and exact than the military and is not as rapid in action even in highly skilled political hands. Now, in war, if commander compromises on essentials, he fails.

• 1:11:28Jocko Willink?

  Furthermore, the time factor forces the commander in the field to adopt the best expedient in the time available, which is usually short. The politician, on the other hand, is seldom forced to give an immediate decision. Rather, he delays in order to find out the right and accurate answer and he avoids any temporary expedient. One seizes time by the forlock and adopts the best expedient. The other procrastinates in order to ensure that what he does is exactly right. Now, I think you, I think this gets taken to the extreme in both cases because you actually, even as a military leader, you want to weigh and make sure you're, you want to, you want to wait long enough to make sure you're making a good

• 1:12:12Jocko Willink?

  decision. And I think in the political world, they go to the extreme of they're just going to never make a decision, never going to make a change.

• 1:12:21Jocko Willink?

  Therefore, a leader who is primarily a soldier, when he meddles with politics, loses his clear and simple military purpose. He no longer sees the essentials. He is at sea in a political world. We read that Cromwell in politics was muddled and perplexed, working slowly and deviously to a policy which he did not clearly see.

• 1:12:42Jocko Willink?

  And again, that he was confused and distracted. So though he kept the political power in his own hands during his lifetime, much of what he built fell to pieces the moment he died. So also Napoleon. As long as his military purpose was uppermost in his mind, he succeeded. But when political considerations dominated his policy, the desire to impose his will on Europe led him to undertake military operations, which it was beyond his power to achieve.

• 1:13:10Jocko Willink?

  The qualities required by a soldier and by a politician are in fact almost at opposite poles. And only a few men in history have possessed both kinds of qualities. There have not been many soldiers who have made good polit- politicians, nor many politicians who have made great soldiers. Now, the only thing I'll say is that being in the military is very political. And you, even in this time, I I'm not going to make any distinction that, oh, it's more political now. It's not. The old mo- old books about World War Two, there's all kinds of politi- politics, politics going on inside the chain of command. So I'm I'm not sure why he. I'm not sure why he he sees that great distinction between,

• 1:13:54Jocko Willink?

  you know, there being no, like, there's no political things, no political games being played in the military. There certainly is. Certainly is, and there always has been. And there always will be. It's a group of people. And then group of people are going to do their little political maneuvers. They're going to look out for themselves. They're going to try and make this happen. You know, that's that's they're going to have an agenda.

• 1:14:17Jocko Willink?

  You got to learn how to negotiate those politics, whether you're in the military or whether you're in the civilian sector. It doesn't matter.

• 1:14:25Jocko Willink?

  Before we leave the past, it is, I think, interesting to note that great military leaders have, on the whole, been few. There have been many generals of good average ability, but few who were really great. In the study of those who were great, it is interesting to note two things. First, it required a war to produce them. Second, that a number of them proved their greatness after a very short apprenticeship. This suggests that the art of war, at any rate in the past, though less so now, is a relatively simple art. And that the qualities which make a great commander are inherent, rather than acquired. Interesting, he's a little bit more saying, "Hey, you're kind of born with it."

• 1:15:11Jocko Willink?

  The character, and more especially the will to dominate and lead his fellow men, is given to few. But given that power to lead, the ability to gain success in war can be acquired, so you can get better at it.

• 1:15:27Jocko Willink?

  A man may cultivate the qualities of a great leader, provided that he has inherent in him in sufficient degree the character and the will to dominate.

• 1:15:37Jocko Willink?

  But unless he has those inherent characteristics, he will never become a great leader, however long he studies the art or the craft of war.

• 1:15:47Jocko Willink?

  It is one of the phenomena of military history that events invariably produce the man. Age has little or nothing to do with it. The opportunity may come sooner to some, later to others. Napoleon was 27 when he conquered northern Italy. Wolf was 34 when he captured Quebec. At the other end of the scale, Marlborough was 52 when he first rose to a high and independent command. And Abercrombie conducted a short but brilliant campaign in Egypt at the age of 68. At the end of a long lifetime. In the careers of great generals, there's always been this aspect of chance. Opportunity comes at different ages and in different circumstances. Some have been luckier than others, some perhaps never had the opportunity to prove their ability.

• 1:16:33Jocko Willink?

  So that's where he wraps up so much for the lessons of history. Today, the problems of military leadership are much the same as they always have been. I propose to tell you now, some of the things that have guided me in leading armies, which have been entrusted to my command. I would say first, that a leader must very clearly know what he wants himself. He must see his objective clearly, and must go all out for it.

• 1:17:01Jocko Willink?

  He must let everyone else know what he wants, and what are the basic fundamentals of his policy. He must in fact, give firm guidance and a clear lead. It will be necessary for him to create what I call "atmosphere", and in that atmosphere, his subordinate commanders and troops will live and work. To do this, he will have to take a very firm grip on his military machine from the top. Only in this way, will his force acquire balance and cohesion, and so, develop its full fighting potential. History has many examples of a lack of grip being taken by a commander, with the result that he failed to develop the power of which his force was capable, and so met disasters.

• 1:17:45Jocko Willink?

  This is Monty, you gotta take that firm grip.

• 1:17:50Jocko Willink?

  And again, it's very strange, because he comes off so strong like that, but, here we go, he's gonna counter it right here. Having laid down the basic fundamentals of his policy, a commander must place complete trust in his subordinates, and must give them freedom to carry out that policy within the framework, which he has laid down. So this is decentralized command.

• 1:18:15Jocko Willink?

  He must be prepared to decentralize, and to trust his subordinates to use their own initiative on all matters of detail.

• 1:18:23Jocko Willink?

  Everyone listen to that.

• 1:18:25Jocko Willink?

  Don't worry about the details. The commander himself must stand back from the detail, so he can see clearly the essentials of his problem, and make sure that the correct action is being taken on those essentials. If ever a commander allows himself to become too greatly immersed in the unimportant details of any problem, he will fail to see the essentials clearly. Detach, take a step back. Elevate yourself. It is obvious that he must be a good judge of men, and a good chooser of subordinates. He must also have the drive to get things done.

• 1:18:59Jocko Willink?

  No commander will long remain in the first rank unless he achieves success. The biggest single factor for making success in war is morale. A high morale is based on discipline, self-respect, and the confidence of the soldier in his commanders and in his weapons. It is a pearl of very great price and without it, no success in battle will be achieved. A high morale is in fact, a measure of the confidence of troops, of their commander. That's an interesting point, right? How do you have high morale? It's a measurement of how confident the troops are. So when the, when, when the troops are confident or the, or the employees are confident in the boss,

• 1:19:44Jocko Willink?

  morale is high. When they're not confident, morale is low. And by the way, with low morale, you're not winning.

• 1:19:56Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, there is no book of rules which will help a commander to gain the complete trust and confidence of his men. Each commander will adopt his own methods and say the ones best suited to his own personality. Suffice it to say that he must be known, must be known personally to them. And that success in battle will produce quick results. All soldiers will follow a successful general. No commander, however, will gain the confidence of his troops unless he is known and well-known to them. They must often see him and if possible, hear him speak. A commander should take every opportunity of talking to his officers and men. It will repay him according to his worth.

• 1:20:40Jocko Willink?

  Got to get out there and talk to the troops.

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  There are other factors also which have a big effect on morale. The home front and the battle on the front nowadays are, as, as never before, very closely linked. So you gotta, gotta keep that morale up. You gotta make sure everything's going good on the home front. Imagine what it's linked like now. I mean, this is, he's talking about World War II. World War II. Hey, we're very closely linked because I can write a letter that's going to get to my wife nine weeks from now. Right now, we got brothers on Facebook Live nightly.

• 1:21:20Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, just as success is a great stimulus to morale, so nothing lowers morale so quickly as failure. Therefore, there must be no failures. Great and lasting harm can be done to morale by undertaking operations for which the troops concerned are not ready or or trained, and which they are likely to end in failure. I have therefore made it a rule to limit the scope of any operation to what can be achieved successfully. So, again, this sounds super risk averse. And that's that's that is, hey, I'm not going to do anything that I don't know we can achieve it. Then again, how often do you want to be rolling the dice?

• 1:22:04Jocko Willink?

  Why not say, you know what? Well, let's give it another month. Let's train a little bit more. Why do we have to do this right now? You know? And I certainly think that there's times when you have to take risk and you're going to do some things that maybe you don't know if you can get away with. And there can be times where you're forced into that position as well, like you're being attacked. And hey, we can, I'm not sure if a flank is going to work, but we can either sit here and get attacked and get flanked by them, or we can go and flank ourselves. Like, let's, let's go make this happen. So I think we need to make sure we don't take that root, that comment to the extreme. Because that can be a bit much. But consider it, consider it deeply.

• 1:22:45Jocko Willink?

  And I think probably the reason why this, this is probably one of those points where, you know, he said in the beginning of this, he made the premise that um that, hey, this is a, this is, this is for army command, right? Or at least divisional command. We're talking you're in charge of 10,000 people. Or more. So what he's saying, maybe, I guess it becomes more acceptable of a rule. You don't want to risk 10,000, you don't want to risk an entire army or an entire division on something that you may or may not be successful at, right? Maybe we need to reassess. If we're not sure we can make this happen, maybe we need to reassess if we're going to go forward or not.

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  Another thing that today has a big effect on morale is the standard of medical care, which soldiers can expect. So you got that.

• 1:23:42Jocko Willink?

  And then we get to a commander must make a very close study of human nature. The raw material with which he has to deal are men. And it is important to remember that all men are different. What a commander makes of the human material at his disposal will depend entirely on himself. I have found that every division which has fought under my command has had a different characteristics. Each division was good at a different type of battle. And it is vital that the commander should gauge what type of battle is best at and make sure that each division is at the right point when required.

• 1:24:25Jocko Willink?

  So even in the quote "uniformity" of the military, they have differences. They're human beings and those differences are reflected through whole units. The difference between divisions is based partly on the individuality of the commander of the division and partly on the type of men of whom the division is composed. I found for instance that some divisions were outstandingly good at the breakthrough attack, but were not so good at the deliberate set piece affair. Some divisions were best at night, some by day. For a solid killing match, certain types of men were better than others, and so on. Each division develops an individuality of its own, which I consider a high commander must study.

• 1:25:12Jocko Willink?

  I was in the airport and I ran into a dude from South Africa, who was in the game, kind of big time. And... He was talking about, he says, yes, and I can't do it on their accent, but he was saying that he had, he worked construction, he was a construction guy, and he had a crew. And he gave his crew a name. I should have asked him what the name of the crew was, but I didn't. But I'm sure they gave him, he gave him some kind of name. And he was like, he was just so pumped. And he goes, yeah, I read it in Hackworth two, and then I, I did it because you did it. And he goes, it really worked, mate. He was all fired up.

• 1:25:58Jocko Willink?

  Because you can change the personality of something. You can change the, the personality of a unit like that. You can do it. It works.

• 1:26:09Jocko Willink?

  In the same way, all generals differ and must be selected for the job in hand. No two jobs, no two problems are ever the same. And the character of the job must be matched to that of the commander selected to undertake it. One of the most important functions of a commander in a ward is to make sure that he has the right man in the right place to tackle the job in hand. So think about that. When you're in charge of a team, when you're in charge of a business, one of the most important things that you do is put the right people in the right job.

• 1:26:43Jocko Willink?

  Some people are sensitive to that. You know, so when I'm like, hey, hey, Bill, I'm not giving you this off. I'm giving it to Echo. And Bill gets mad and frustrated and he thinks Echo doesn't deserve it. Man, we gotta have a good enough relationship and trust that when I say, hey, Bill, this op's not for you. I'm giving it to Echo. And he goes, okay, cool. Let me know what's coming down the pipe. Let me know what I can get ready for. Let me know how I can support.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that, remember, remember the movie Major League? Charlie Sheen, come on, yeah.

• 1:27:12Jocko Willink?

  I remember the movie. I don't think I ever sat through that whole movie.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Oh, actually, you know what? I think I asked you that before. I think you said the same thing. So there's this part where, okay, so Charlie Sheen. Right, he got his glasses. He, oh yeah, that's what we were talking about last time. So last time, as far as Major League goes, the movie Major League. So Charlie Sheen, he had all this crazy power and speed in his fastball.

• 1:27:34Jocko Willink?

  But no control.

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  No control. Then they find out whatever, he can't see that good. They give him some glasses. Boom, he brings it all together. They start winning all this stuff, right? So he's starting. The other guy who was starting before him, his name's Harris, older guy. But you know, basically the more, like he's consistent. He's not like legit like Charlie Sheen, but he's consistent, you know? So they're about to play the, fast forward, they're about to play the Yankees, right? In the big game.

• 1:27:59Jocko Willink?

  Is that called the word serious?

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  It's like this big deal. And you know, so the general manager Lou calls Charlie Sheen. What was his name in the movie Charlie Sheen?

• 1:28:11Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't matter.

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter. Anyway, calls Charlie Sheen to the back of the bus and he's like, hey,

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  I'm gonna start Harris against the Yankees. He just has a better reputation against them and you know, more, more experience, whatever. And then Charlie Sheen was like, oh yeah, you know, whatever's best for the team. And he left and that was sort of it.

• 1:28:31Jocko Willink?

  So he was good with it?

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  No, well, the movie goes on and he's not good with it. He expressed himself like he was good with it. And he said the right things, but later on he goes on like, goes drinking by himself or something. Then he winds up hooking up with like one of his teammates wife and that was all, but that's a whole nother story though.

• 1:28:48Jocko Willink?

  We don't care about, we don't actually care about any of this, but we definitely don't care about that part.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Rick Vaughn, that's his name, Wild Thing Rick Vaughn. There you go. But same deal though, right? You gotta get the right guys. Yes. And of course.

• 1:29:01Jocko Willink?

  You nailed it.

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:02Jocko Willink?

  Nailed it, bro.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Eventually, Harris, you know, he does okay, you know? And then they bring out Rick Vaughn to close out the game, whatever, to win. So there you go. Boom. Win, win.

• 1:29:13Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Back to the book. If a commander thinks that all men are the same and he treats the mass of human material accordingly, he will fail.

• 1:29:27Jocko Willink?

  The soldiers of today have different standards and require more enlightened handling than the soldiers of bygone days. This is again where he starts to, you realize that this guy, even though he tries to come across all hard, he's actually very thoughtful about understanding humans. Back to the book, "They will no longer follow blindly and unquestionably to an unknown end. Today, therefore, a commander must ensure that his troops always know what they are being asked to do and how that fits in with the larger plan." I have always, in other words, they gotta know why they're doing what they're doing. "I have always insisted that before a battle, the essentials of the plan are known right through

• 1:30:12Jocko Willink?

  the chain of command and finally down to the rank and file. The troops must know how a commander is going to fight the battle and what part they are going to play in it. This must be explained to them by word of mouth, for that counts far more than the written word."

• 1:30:27Jocko Willink?

  "And then, when the battle has been won and the troops see that the battle has gone as the commander said it would, their confidence in the high command will be very great. This confidence is beyond price."

• 1:30:40Jocko Willink?

  The problem with that statement is it puts pressure on you to stick to a plan. Just like, that that makes you think, "Oh, I'm just gonna stick with it." "I want everyone to think that it went the way I wanted it to go." No. Don't just stick with a plan. If it's not working, it's not working. Shift. "A commander must watch carefully his own morale. A battle is a contest between the will of two opposing commanders. The one whose heart fails when the issue hangs in the balance will lose the battle."

• 1:31:13Jocko Willink?

  A commander, in fact, must throughout radiate confidence in his plan and operations, even though inwardly he may not be too sure of the outcome. It's one of those other things, you know, people talk about transparency.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:31:31Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:32Jocko Willink?

  Transparency. Well, guess what? And it's like, oh yeah, there's a book. There's all kinds of book about transparency.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:40Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, you gotta be fully transparent with everyone. It's like, no, actually, sometimes if I'm a little more nervous about what we're doing and I start to show that, everyone's gonna be nervous about what we're doing.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, and.

• 1:31:51Jocko Willink?

  Bad scene.

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, they can, uh, and sometimes too, where like, like how you mentioned before, like some people can't take the truth, you know, like, so like if there's certain shifts gonna be made or certain like rules gonna be implemented or whatever.

• 1:32:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  You know, like, hey, we're, we're gonna move, we're gonna demote this, or we're gonna move this person out of this department because he's just, he, he's irri, he stinks or something like he has BO and he's irritating everybody, you know, kind of thing.

• 1:32:20Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  It's okay, and he'll be, he'll just do just as good a work down here, you know, in the basement. Where he's by himself, exactly right, you know? And it's like, hey, and then we're, hey, we're gonna shift you over here. And, and he's gonna be like, cool, like, why though? Like, I'm down to do it, but why? Do you be transparent? Maybe, maybe not, but you run the.

• 1:32:39Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  You run the risk is what I'm saying.

• 1:32:41Jocko Willink?

  The, the, the good thing to do would be like, hey, man. Hey, bro, let me ask you something. If I had a booger hanging out of my nose, would you want, would you, would, if you had a booger hanging out of your nose, would you want me to tell you? Everyone says, yeah, of course. Cool, you stink.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  Actually.

• 1:32:59Jocko Willink?

  You smell bad.

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 1:33:01Jocko Willink?

  Hey, what about stinky gees on the mat?

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:03Jocko Willink?

  Right? Somebody's gotta let them know, bro, you gotta wash that thing.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:07Jocko Willink?

  You might need a new gee.

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:09Jocko Willink?

  You know, some people, they, they have this old ratty gee, the smell is embedded in those things. I had gees like that.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:15Jocko Willink?

  Where it's like, you wash it and then you wash it and you take it out, you put it on for four minutes and you go, oh yeah, I gotta throw this thing away. This thing stinks.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's true, that, that would be a better way to do it.

• 1:33:28Jocko Willink?

  But you can't say, hey, why don't you move to the beginner class?

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  Go drill.

• 1:33:33Jocko Willink?

  No, go drill in the corner over there. Go work with the grappling dummy over there. It's like, no, that's not cool. You need to tell a brother, hey, man, you stink it. You need to wash your gi. Wash your gi immediately.

• 1:33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:47Jocko Willink?

  So this is, this is one of those things where if you, if you need to talk to them, right? Even in that situation, you do need to tell the truth.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:56Jocko Willink?

  You know, you do need to say, hey, listen, man, I don't know what's up with your hygiene. But it needs some work.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Alright, so what if the company is taking this massive financial hit and layoffs are coming straight up? You lay off one guy, you lay off two guys. Do you be transparent? Like, hey, guys, we're taking a massive hit. We're laying off a bunch of people.

• 1:34:19Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, in that, in that case, you have to say, hey, listen, this is what's going on. This is where we're at. And we're gonna do our best and the best way we can do this is by buckling down hard and working hard, but right now it's gonna be tight. Going, gonna go through a tight quarter right now. We had to let go of two guys. We're gonna try and maintain what we got, but I can't promise you anything, right? You gotta be, yes, yes, I'm gonna be truthful.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  Maybe it is better to be transparent.

• 1:34:45Jocko Willink?

  Most of the time it is. Most of the time it is. What we, what? It's in this situation. What we're talking about is if you lack confidence in what you're doing. And you start to reveal that to people.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Letting it show. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:03Jocko Willink?

  Then that's not good. And you know, there's, there's, now, let's say, let's say, echo. Let's say I didn't think you were cognitively capable of doing a job at the next level. I might not necessarily tell you that because that's something that you can't necessarily change. You can't go home, take a shower and get smarter, right? Doesn't work that way. You can't, you can't put on a deodorant and now you're smarter. That doesn't work. It's smelling bad is not, is not necessarily a bad problem because it's something that can be fixed. But if you, if you aren't smart enough, well, then we have a, we have a situation. You can't really, I mean, you can study, you can work, but you're not gonna get smarter.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:45Jocko Willink?

  Right? So it might not be a great idea for me to say, well, you know, I, I decided not to, you know, you're not getting promoted. I promoted Billy because you're, you're dumb.

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's just a lot smarter.

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, here's the deal, man. Just straight up. You're not that smart, right?

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:35:58Jocko Willink?

  So I couldn't put you in charge of anything because, because you're not smart. Now, that's different than me saying, hey, listen, man. Six months ago, if I was like, hey, listen, man, you need to start paying attention. Cause what you're doing right now, if you're going to move up, you gotta really know. You, it's going to take you some extra studying. Look, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. And I, I know I have to work hard at making this stuff happen. Do you look at your, do you look at your manuals at all? Have you been studying your manuals? You need to like dig into your manuals and really know this stuff. If you think you're going to get promoted, you're not going to get promoted unless you know this stuff like the back of your hand. You need to get in the game. So if we've already been through that whole thing and you actually got out the manuals and you tried and you didn't make anything happen, well, guess what?

• 1:36:43Jocko Willink?

  Hey, man, there's just not that many opportunities at this next level. And by the way, I think there's another kind of course of, a career course that I have thinking for you, you know? So let's talk about that. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 1:36:56Jocko Willink?

  Something that, something that requires large biceps. I think it's going to be your area of expertise.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:37:06Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:37:09Jocko Willink?

  Going back to the book, in order that he may keep clear of unimportant details and thus have time for the quiet thought and reflection, a higher commander must work through a chief of staff and thus avoid having to deal separately with the heads of all branches. So far as I'm aware, the British Army is the only army which was, which does not adopt the chief of staff system. In my own experience, it is quite possible to, it is quite impossible to exercise high command successfully in war without it. I have adopted the chief of staff system myself throughout this war and could not have succeeded otherwise. So you gotta have someone that's going to handle things for you, the little things.

• 1:37:50Jocko Willink?

  You know, I always talked about the, um, the senior enlisted guy in a, a platoon chief or in a task unit. Or in a platoon or a company, an army company, the senior enlisted guy, I always said was the action arm of the commander. So when you need something done, I don't have time to go do it myself. And if I go do do it myself, then I've lost the bigger picture. But if I have something critical, you've got the senior enlisted individual that has the most tactical experience, has the most authority, the most respects. When you say, hey, chief, that building over there hasn't been cleared yet. I don't know what's going on. Go clear that thing. And he'll say, Roger that. Or the platoon sergeant, or the company first sergeant, those guys should

• 1:38:32Jocko Willink?

  have the experience and the tactical expertise and then be utilized as the action arm that can make things happen. Now, that's not exactly what a chief of staff is. It's actually quite different, but it's similar in the fact that you can't get sucked into the weeds. And if you if you're the commander of a of a division, and you're in the weeds all the time, you don't have, you can't see what's happening. And it's the same thing in a business. If the if the CEO of the business is running the business daily, he's not looking up and out, he's looking down and in, and that's not going to allow him to make foresee what's coming down the pipe in the future. And that's pretty much what it says here. No officer whose daily life is spent in the consideration of details or who has not time for quiet thought and reflection can make

• 1:39:14Jocko Willink?

  a sound plan of battle or conduct large scale operations. The wise commander is the one who uses a chief of staff who sees very few papers or letters himself, and who sees that the majority of reports that are made to him are verbal and short. Only in this way, giving himself plenty of time for quiet thought and reflection, will he be, will he keep himself mentally fresh and capable of producing the sound plan of operations, which will defeat his enemy. For the plan of operations must always be made by the commander, and he must not be for and must not be forced upon him by his staff, by his by his circumstances, or by the enemy. That's pretty important. Why are you allowing the circumstances or the enemy

• 1:39:57Jocko Willink?

  to dictate how you're going to do things? That's not a good call.

• 1:40:04Jocko Willink?

  A commander must decide how he will fight the battle before it begins. He must decide how he will use the military effort at his disposal to force the battle to swing the way he wishes it to go. To be able to do this, his dispositions must be so balanced that he can ignore enemy reactions and continue with his own plan until he is certain of success. He has got to strive to read the mind of his opponent, to anticipate enemy reactions to his own moves, and to take quick steps to prevent any enemy interference with his own plan. Again, this is a little bit sketchy to me because now we're talking about, hey, I'm just driving forward with my plan no matter what. I don't like that attitude. I want to be flexible. I'm gonna try and stick to my plan, but I'm gonna be flexible.

• 1:40:49Jocko Willink?

  This is one where, you know, man, I don't even know. This is one of those things where sometimes I would get guys that would, there'd be a little change. They'd come up with a plan. They'd spend all this time planning for a mission, and then there'd be a little change. Maybe they're getting ready to go out, some imagery comes in and it shows something a little bit different, or maybe they get some intel that's a little bit different, and they decide they're gonna, they've already planned, they've already rehearsed, they already know what they're doing, everyone's kind of walked through, and they decide they're gonna change their whole plan because of some little thing. And I would say, man, don't change your whole plan. You want to make a little adjustment? You want to take a little fire team and have them make an adjustment? Take a squad, make them do something. That's okay.

• 1:41:31Jocko Willink?

  Don't try and rearrange your whole plan. You've already rehearsed. You have to unrehearse. You know how hard that is? You have to unprogram your team. That is really hard to do.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:42Jocko Willink?

  So, sometimes, and I used to, this is actually one of those things that slowly I don't really talk about very often because, but I used to, it used to be in the combat leadership brief I used to give, it used to say, "Don't fall for 6% advantage over the enemy." And what I meant by that was, and I used to draw a target up on the, on the dry erase board, and I'd say, "Okay, you're going to take down this target." So you come up with a plan. How do you want to do it? "Oh, we set up an L and base and maneuver." Okay, cool. You're getting ready to go out and do this, and you find out that there's an outhouse.

• 1:42:22Jocko Willink?

  Over the berm over here. And there's a chance two o'clock in the morning that the guy could be in that outhouse. What do you want to do? And some guys would completely change their whole plan. Completely change their whole plan. Meanwhile, we're launching in two minutes or eight minutes or 20 minutes. They've planned this. They've rehearsed it. Everyone knows what their job was. The whole team came up with a plan together. I mean, it's like a, it's really in their brains. And now they see this little detail. Cause there's a chance that at three o'clock in the morning, when you hit this target, that the, the guy that you're looking for is in the outhouse. So we're going to change our whole plan to make up for this tiny percentage chance that this guy's even in the outhouse. Not a good call. Can you break off a fire team? That's going to maneuver to a position where they can at least keep an eye on the outhouse. That's fine.

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  But don't change your whole damn plan based on this little 6% chance that the enemy might do something you didn't expect. Or no, the, the enemy, that something is very unlikely of happening. It's not that you didn't expect it. Things that you don't expect. That's why you have contingency plans. Which is like, hey, when we fly in, if we see any other outbuildings that we missed on the imagery, we have a fire team designated to go and, you know, get eyes on those things from the high ground. Okay, cool. That's a contingency plan. That works.

• 1:43:36Jocko Willink?

  Going back to the commander here. He has got always to be a very clear thinker. And must aim to be always one move ahead of his opponent. I actually prefer to be about five moves ahead of my opponent. To do this, he must simplify the problem. Whenever a problem arises, he must think out the few points, which will form the framework of the solution. The few things that will really matter. So long as the solution to the problem is based on those few things that really matter, the solution will be on the right lines. Solid. Solid. You have like this, this, this pathway. And as long in the path, at the end of the pathway is what you want to achieve.

• 1:44:21Jocko Willink?

  As long as you're doing things that are on the pathway, you're go, you're getting there. When you start doing things that are off the pathway, we get a problem. Sometimes you gotta look at your, your subordinates and say, hey, is that even on the path? In the direction that we're heading? Cause it doesn't seem like it to me. A commander must at all times exercise personal command. That is to say, he must give, must see and give full verbal orders or instructions to his subordinate generals on how the battle is to be fought. Operational command in the field must be direct and personal. No written order can ever be the equivalent of a direct verbal command. Interesting. And I've, my standard is, I do both. I do both. I say, hey Echo, here's what we're doing.

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  Hey, do you understand this? Do you got any questions? Cool. And I send you a message that says, hey Echo, this is what we talked about. This is what you're doing, making sure you understand. If I can, I'm going to do both. If you can only do one, yes, verbal is better.

• 1:45:22Jocko Willink?

  Most of the time.

• 1:45:25Jocko Willink?

  A commander must therefore understand how to give verbal orders to his subordinates. No two generals are the same. Each will require different treatment. Each will react differently. By exercising personal command, a commander can exert a far greater and more exact influence on the battle. And the confidence which will grow up between the commander and his generals will be of great value. The whole chain of command can thus, and only thus, be built into a united team whose strength is based on mutual confidence and understanding.

• 1:45:57Jocko Willink?

  Relationships. That's all relationships is what he's talking about right there.

• 1:46:03Jocko Willink?

  When the whole army is built into one great team, united in working all out for a common purpose, the result is terrific. Success in war is due to good teamwork by all members of the fighting forces and to the correct use which is made of all members by the team, of the team by the commander and his staff. But failure in war is always due to one of two causes. To faulty command or to bad staff work. And sometimes to both.

• 1:46:37Jocko Willink?

  I can think of no instance where the failure has been due to a failure of the fighting man. The British fighting man will always do what is asked of him.

• 1:46:48Jocko Willink?

  But you must make sure that he understands what he is asked to do. And also that it is within his capacity to do it.

• 1:47:01Jocko Willink?

  If your team is not doing what it is you want them to do, the first person you should check is yourself. If you're giving people complex orders that they don't understand, there's no possible way that they can execute those plans.

• 1:47:14Jocko Willink?

  And here's how he closes this out. "Finally, I do not believe that today a commander can inspire great armies, or single units, or even individual men, and lead them to achieve great victories unless he has a proper sense of religious truth.

• 1:47:30Jocko Willink?

  And he must be prepared to acknowledge it. And to lead his troops in the light of that truth. He must always keep his finger on the spiritual pulse of his army.

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  And he must be very sure that the spiritual purpose which inspires them is right and true, and is clearly expounded to one and all.

• 1:47:56Jocko Willink?

  Unless he does this, he can expect no lasting success." So you gotta believe in what you're doing.

• 1:48:07Jocko Willink?

  For all leadership, I believe, is based on the spiritual quality, the power to inspire others to follow. And this spiritual quality may be for good, or may be for evil.

• 1:48:22Jocko Willink?

  In many cases, this quality has been devoted toward personal ends, and was partly or wholly evil. And whenever this was so, in the end, it failed.

• 1:48:38Jocko Willink?

  For leadership which is evil, while it may temporarily succeed, always carries within it the seeds of its own destruction.

• 1:48:55Jocko Willink?

  That's a, that's, that's a solid one. Leadership, which is evil, while it may temporarily succeed, always carries within it the seeds of its own destruction. And that is a theory that I fully believe in.

• 1:49:11Jocko Willink?

  And I mean, I believe in it on that level,

• 1:49:17Jocko Willink?

  on that high consequence level.

• 1:49:23Jocko Willink?

  But I also believe it on a, on a much less dramatic level. And this is something that you deal with every day.

• 1:49:30Jocko Willink?

  And that's this, the leader that is looking out for himself. The leader that puts himself above his team. That leader is eventually going to fail.

• 1:49:41Jocko Willink?

  Even though they may temporarily succeed, same thing, they may temporarily succeed. But eventually, they are going to fail. That's what's gonna happen. And I will tell you something else that is true, and that is the opposite is of that. And that is if you are doing the right things for the right things, for the right reasons.

• 1:50:03Jocko Willink?

  Then you may temporarily fail. But you will have the seeds

• 1:50:11Jocko Willink?

  for victory. The seeds for victory. And the reason that I say seeds is very specific. There's a reason why I'm saying that is because seeds are not guaranteed to grow. Right? Just because you have good intention, doesn't mean that you're going to win. Doesn't mean that you're going to achieve victory. It means you have the seeds for victory. Because once you plant those seeds, you have to water them and you have to nourish them. And you have to protect them from birds and from squirrels and from vermin. And you have to work. You have to plant those seeds and then you have to make those seeds grow. And if you do that

• 1:50:54Jocko Willink?

  and you continue to do that, then

• 1:50:58Jocko Willink?

  you move forward. And you're doing it for the right reasons. In the end, you are going to win.

• 1:51:09Jocko Willink?

  And you know that that middle section of this Monty went pretty deep talking about morale and he has a whole nother section here that I've got on morale, but I think we're going to save that for another podcast since we're already two hours deep.

• 1:51:30Jocko Willink?

  Until then, Echo Charles, if we want to keep our morale high, if we want to nourish the seeds and we want to protect them.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:51:42Jocko Willink?

  And we want to do the right things for the right reason.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  Always.

• 1:51:45Jocko Willink?

  So that we can win.

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  Yes. Dominate? Are we, are we doing dominate?

• 1:51:50Jocko Willink?

  Kind of looking at, I don't think we're looking to dominate, possibly looking to dominate. We're not looking to dominate, man.

• 1:51:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:51:56Jocko Willink?

  But you gotta, you gotta be able to

• 1:52:00Jocko Willink?

  we'll probably come, we'll revisit that word.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:02Jocko Willink?

  Full, we'll do the full study of that word.

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:06Jocko Willink?

  And dig deep. At a minimum, it means, hey, we're going to dominate. I'm going to, hey, this guy dominates the room in a positive way.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:14Jocko Willink?

  At the extreme, it's like this guy just has a dominant personality.

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:17Jocko Willink?

  The problem is, how often do you see a person with a dominant personality that rubs everyone the wrong way? Happens all the time.

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  Dominant, like domineering.

• 1:52:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this guy's got to dominate. No one, no one wants him on the team.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:28Jocko Willink?

  Cause you can't get a word in edgewise. That's why I question the use of this word.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:33Jocko Willink?

  Now, that being said, and I can see this.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:52:38Jocko Willink?

  I can see this.

• 1:52:40Jocko Willink?

  Just because someone has the will to dominate and it's strong doesn't mean that they sit there and rub everyone the wrong way. Because if they really had the will to dominate, what they would do is back off and allow others to step up and allow others to have their say and allow others to try and lead and to actually lead.

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:01Jocko Willink?

  If they were really going to play the game, they might have the strongest will to dominate. But they don't act that way because they realize that that's counterproductive to actually dominating.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:17Jocko Willink?

  You look like you're confused.

• 1:53:18Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, no, yeah, I mean, I don't know.

• 1:53:21Jocko Willink?

  So check it out.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  Confused, but the, I think that if ju- I feel like there's just a, there's a more general broad use or meaning for that word. That's what I think. So.

• 1:53:32Jocko Willink?

  I, I think you're right. That being said, i- it could also be if you have somebody that has a strong, incredibly powerful will to dominate, but they realize that that is abrasive and it is not the best way to actually win in a situation. They will modulate and they will tamper that will to dominate.

• 1:53:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:56Jocko Willink?

  So that it best serves the accomplishment of the mission and therefore best serves their domination.

• 1:54:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I could dig it, you know, it just does feel at this, but at this point right now, it feels like that might be kind of a reach.

• 1:54:11Jocko Willink?

  It's like that thing that I talked about at the muster of, of what is, what is leadership? And, and I talk about how like leadership is winning at all costs.

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:25Jocko Willink?

  And there's been some people that say, well, I don't know if winning at all costs seems like a bad attitude, but the whole, because you put a clip like that for an advertisement for the muster in a little muster clip.

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:54:37Jocko Willink?

  You put me going, leadership is winning at all cost, right? And there was someone that commented, commented on our, on the Echelon Front Extreme Ownership Facebook private group that, you know, I don't know if I like this, this seems a little bit, that doesn't seem like a good attitude. And, you know, I replied that, hey, you have to hear the whole thing. That's only, that's only a few seconds.

• 1:55:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:03Jocko Willink?

  Because what it goes on to say is if you really want to win. Then you'll compromise, then you'll make exceptions, then you'll build relationships and you'll take a back step and you'll put your, you will subordinate your ego.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the biggest thing that I got from it.

• 1:55:20Jocko Willink?

  You will subordinate your ego because you will put the mission above your own personal will to dominate.

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:27Jocko Willink?

  You'll, you'll subordinate your will to dominate. So that you can actually win in the long term, in the long game.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's important to remember, if you hear the whole speech or whatever, or the whole segment we'll say.

• 1:55:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  Is that, yeah, you talk like a lot about um where like there's like battles and then there's the overall victory and like this, all this stuff. And then, and sure, there's the, the dramatic parts when you're like, nothing's gonna get in my way.

• 1:55:58Speaker 01

  But yeah, like you sacrifice so much where, okay, so when you say win at all costs, it kind of, this is what it sounds like if you just hear that line. And nothing's gonna get in my, it sounds like even at the cost of like half my men or something like that.

• 1:56:11Jocko Willink?

  Not only that, but in the corporate world, it's like, I'll just step on anyone I need to win. I'll, I'll, I'll uh send bad product out to the consumers and I don't care if they get hurt or I don't care if it's, I don't care, whatever, I'm just gonna win. I'm here like that. That's what, that's what people think.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  So yeah, so in that guy's defense, it sounds like that, but again, the whole speech, it really, I mean, really, the, one of the main, actually the takeaway, if not anything, is like winning, what is winning? Like, you know, if I lose half my men, did you really win? I think you actually say that exact thing.

• 1:56:41Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  Like, no, that's not.

• 1:56:43Jocko Willink?

  Well, not only that, because it's not a victory, but also how can you carry on with your mission? You can't, you're, you're mission incapable now.

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:49Jocko Willink?

  I'm actually putting, I'm actually putting that, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write that down, capture that and I'm gonna redo it for EF online.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:56:58Jocko Willink?

  That, that, that, that part.

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:00Jocko Willink?

  You know, so that way people can understand what winning at all costs, what, what it means, what I'm talking about.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:06Jocko Willink?

  So we'll put that on EF online.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:08Jocko Willink?

  If anybody wants to check that out.

• 1:57:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:11Jocko Willink?

  If you don't know what that is. EF online is uh interactive leadership training from my company Echelon Front. Where we travel the world, teaching companies, businesses, organizations about leadership. In the course of doing that, we eventually got to a point where A, we couldn't service all the people that wanted our service. And B, some of the companies that we could service, we couldn't service all their employees because they have 50,000 employees and they want to have everyone get trained by Echelon Front. So, talking to Leif during a board meeting.

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  Surf board meeting?

• 1:57:52Jocko Willink?

  Yes. So Leif and I were surfing. I said, uh, brother, we need to figure out a way to scale this stuff.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:57:59Jocko Willink?

  And we, you know, I, I said, let's, let's look at doing something online. And Leif was initially like, mm.

• 1:58:06Speaker 01

  Which makes sense, by the way.

• 1:58:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure. No, and I, I, I wanted to explore it. I wasn't like all in out of the gate, but I was feeling pretty good about it. Because I'd seen some stuff. Leif really hadn't seen anything, you know, he'd basically seen, well, he used to get trained online in the Navy.

• 1:58:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:21Jocko Willink?

  Like for some, just the most ridiculous sort of uh things. They'd send you some online training course about if you get a DUI. This is, you know, check this box if you think you're going to be in trouble. You know, they're just really not the best training. And that's kind of what Leif had in mind.

• 1:58:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:38Jocko Willink?

  But eventually we decided to take a look at it. And once we looked at it, it's like, oh, man, there's the capabilities unbelievable to do interactive training and all that stuff. So we invested in it. We did it. And now we've got this thing and we're using it primarily, uh, uh, we, we're using it primarily for our, for our enterprise clients. So when Echelon Front is working with a company, then they go, well, what are we going to do with our other 14,000 employees? How are we going to train them? Well, here you go. Now, now that's what they're doing. They're training through that. Great feedback and. You know, the, the decision was, well, you know, there's not everyone is in a big company. And so maybe some of the smaller companies or just individuals.

• 1:59:20Jocko Willink?

  Cause, cause sometimes, you know, look at sometimes people come to the muster and they're paying their own way to come to muster, obviously. And their, their company's not supporting it, but they want to improve. So that's why they're there at the muster. Well, it's the same thing with EF online. Some, sometimes you might just do it on your own because you want to become a better leader. Why not get the experience of the echelon front team? The, the principles in practice, you get to try them. So that's, that's what it is. So anyways, we're, we add modules every month, like new training. And so I'm going to put the what is leadership? And the winning at all costs thing on there. So people can listen to what that's really about and what it really means.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. That broader view is important in my opinion. Also, what's important in my opinion is the gi you get for jujitsu when you're doing jujitsu. Here's the thing, when you start jujitsu and you put on a gi, you don't have any basis for comparison. You're not going to understand how important that is. Do you want to put on a straight jacket? When you take a drive around the block?

• 2:00:30Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:00:30Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:00:31Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you have to, but.

• 2:00:33Speaker 01

  Neither do I. And that's what it'll feel like if you buy one of these other gees.

• 2:00:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  Sometimes. Anyway, so the gi you get is origin. You get an origin gi, many selections on there.

• 2:00:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:48Speaker 01

  To fit who you are.

• 2:00:50Jocko Willink?

  And also there's jeans on there.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:54Jocko Willink?

  Jeans.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:55Jocko Willink?

  Did I say origin jeans made in America?

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  American denim.

• 2:00:58Jocko Willink?

  American denim. And they are, they are live. Well, you need to order a pair then.

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  Oh, all right. Maybe I will.

• 2:01:05Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  Okay. All right. There you go.

• 2:01:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're live. They are awesome, highest quality possible. Every detail, go, if you want to find out what, because the jeans there right now, the price point is a hundred and 24 bucks. That's a lot of money for a pair of jeans. I understand that if you buy two pairs, it's 99 bucks each. Here's the deal.

• 2:01:28Jocko Willink?

  If you want to know why they cost that much, go on to Origin BJJ

• 2:01:35Jocko Willink?

  Facebook and watch Pete's video where he breaks down the details in the jeans. You can see the whole thing. Why? Every little detail is covered. Denim pockets, belt, every little thing is done perfectly to the next level. And so they're more expensive. They're also more expensive because we're just kicking it off. Once we get, once we keep building them, we'll get more efficient. So yeah, eventually the price is going to come down. If you can't afford them right now, man, it's cool. It's cool. I get it.

• 2:02:03Speaker 01

  Do jeans have the whole situation of the first edition?

• 2:02:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, they are technically right now. You can get first edition jeans.

• 2:02:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that would be like a first batch of them. First run, what do you call them?

• 2:02:15Jocko Willink?

  First edition is live right now. Yeah, first edition.

• 2:02:18Speaker 01

  Bro, you ever seen those like designer jeans that cost like $300 how they're made?

• 2:02:24Jocko Willink?

  This is where you see people that are scraping them with rocks and stuff.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, well, no, no, no, it's worse. It's worse than that. So they get like regular jeans or whatever and it's a certain color. And it's just denim from wherever and they, you know, this factory in, I forget where, but you know, a factory in

• 2:02:39Jocko Willink?

  A factory in China.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's China.

• 2:02:42Jocko Willink?

  Pakistan or in India and there's a, you know, these little kids that are nine years old, exposed to chemicals. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the one I saw, the one I saw on a little bit, it was more tame than that, but nonetheless, they're like super, like they're like $300 jeans or two fifty or something like this. And they go and the way they're made, I'm like, bro, how is, how is that even worth $300? Like they, they cut the jeans like normal and it's like denim, you know, whatever. And then they do them like, and they put like this steam on them and then they send it to the next person, the next station in the factory. The next station has this like, it's almost like a, like a fishing line on a, what do you call it? Like a wheel?

• 2:03:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, to make it look abused or whatever.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And it spins on the jeans and it makes it look a certain level of abused. Or weathered or what do you call them? Distressed. And then it goes to the next little station and this person at the station is just doing every single one, same thing. You know, next station, the next station has like a little, another thing to help it kind of do it. The next station folded. And so I watched that thing with Pete and my point. And I'm like, oh man, that makes sense. This all makes sense. Like this is deep, you know, this is good. Made me want to get one. Obviously, but I thought back to that factory and I'm thinking, man, how is that worth like three hundred dollars or whatever for that thing? It was such a throwaway process, like when you, you know, when you see it and feel it. So I dig it, man.

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  I dig it and they are made in America, by the way.

• 2:04:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure. They're made in America, they're made in Maine, they're, the cotton's from America, it's dyed in America. It's woven in America and yeah, the price point is, is more expensive than what you're gonna pay. And hey, you know, I don't want you to go out and spend your last dollar on this pair of Origin jeans. No, man. But if you wanna help out and you want, they are the best possible jeans you get. If you want them, then cool, that'd be cool.

• 2:04:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:04:39Jocko Willink?

  But don't need to freak out. I'm not freaking out on my end. We're trying to make good, we're trying to make good quality products and our real mission is long-term mission. Bring manufacturing back to America. We want these, we wanna get these jeans down to a price point. How do we do that? Increase the volume, make more of them. There'll be economies of scale, we'll be able to lower the prices for sure. Absolutely. You know what? We talked to some jean people, denim people. They, they, they wanted us to charge three hundred dollars for these jeans.

• 2:05:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:13Jocko Willink?

  Cause they're like, whoa, you know, these are, wait, what did they say they were?

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  Premium?

• 2:05:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, premium jeans, but there was another word too. Anyways, you know, there's, there's people that pay that kinda money for jeans. I'm not one of them.

• 2:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 2:05:25Jocko Willink?

  You know? But anyways.

• 2:05:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, either way, well, the good news about the whole situation, including made in America, they do have other stuff. So, and man, I haven't talked about these shorts. So, and I don't know if you notice what I wear all the time.

• 2:05:39Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  But the only thing I wear is these shorts, only one.

• 2:05:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:43Speaker 01

  Straight up. I mean, unless it's like, you know, to train or something like this, but like just around is only the Origin shorts. I've heard Shark Fan or whatever, yeah. I have like six pairs of them. It's like the same thing. So I'm sure it's like, you know, if you go through your routine, like people at the store, they're like, bro, this guy wears the same shorts every day, bro. Well, one of them has a green logo, the other one has a black logo. Either way, these are literally the best shorts in the, like, ever made that I've put on, straight up. Yes, so I can get those.

• 2:06:11Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles.

• 2:06:12Speaker 01

  There you go. That's made in America, y'all, big time, man. I'm, that's for real, though.

• 2:06:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, you also said that about their, their. Joggers.

• 2:06:21Speaker 01

  Well, you know, those are the most comfortable. Sure. And well, and you know what?

• 2:06:27Jocko Willink?

  Did I show you when I tried on joggers?

• 2:06:31Jocko Willink?

  Ridiculous.

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  The whole idea. Sounds ridiculous. You don't have a jogger, uh, what do you call?

• 2:06:37Jocko Willink?

  Physique.

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:39Jocko Willink?

  What do you need? What's a jogger physique?

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  I I don't know that I can put my finger on what exactly a jogger physique is, but I can tell you.

• 2:06:54Jocko Willink?

  I confirm that.

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  Yes, so don't worry about the joggers if you're Jaco, but if you're anyone else, those joggers are factually the most comfortable, uh, jogger sweat situation. Clothes. In existence currently, currently.

• 2:07:09Jocko Willink?

  They got some supplements too. Uh, joint warfare, krill oil, discipline, discipline go. We were on a Skype or a or a, yeah, this business Skype call today. And Jason Gardner was on and he, you know, you can, you have a little video.

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  Uh, my little video? I don't know which one.

• 2:07:27Jocko Willink?

  Jake, no, little video like Skype, Skype, you know, Skype is, it's video com- video teleconferencing.

• 2:07:34Jocko Willink?

  Jason Gardner's like, like pulls out his bottle of discipline go and opens it up and like takes one and you know, Jason's uh, super animated.

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:07:43Jocko Willink?

  You know, and he gets this big wired smile on his face because he took a couple hits of the discipline go. Anyways, so we got that. If you need to get in the zone, we also have milk, mint milk, peanut butter milk, vanilla gorilla. The darkness chocolate and now live. Strawberry. Strawberry Slayer.

• 2:08:04Speaker 01

  Strawberry Slayer.

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  Alright, alright.

• 2:08:08Jocko Willink?

  So, let me tell you.

• 2:08:11Jocko Willink?

  Get that strawberry, just straight up. Get that strawberry. That thing is a dessert.

• 2:08:17Speaker 01

  Dang, okay, so we like strawberry.

• 2:08:18Jocko Willink?

  I don't know how, well, it's, it's the, the, the kids, the Warrior Kid Molk, which strawberry is awesome. The chocolate's good, the strawberry is awesome, the chocolate's good too, strawberry is awesome. And I, I just was telling Brian, like, no, hey, man, I don't care, just put a bigger scoop in or whatever, just reduplicate it. But, you know, he's like, no, it's gotta have more protein, it's adults, blah, blah, blah. And somehow he made it, it's actually, it's actually better, or at least as good.

• 2:08:46Speaker 01

  Dang, that's saying a lot.

• 2:08:48Jocko Willink?

  It's so good, dude, it's so good, it's ridiculous. It's a straight up dessert. It tastes like a milkshake, straight up, if you mix it with milk, which is what I mix it with. It tastes like a strawberry milkshake. It tastes better than a strawberry milkshake.

• 2:09:02Speaker 01

  So, if.

• 2:09:03Jocko Willink?

  It's so good, it's ridiculous.

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  Okay, you got a blind taste test, you got all the protein that you need, here you go, and then you have, um, blind taste test. Right, you gotta imagine, cause you know the difference, I get it. So you have a, a cup of Warrior Kid Molk, strawberry, adult, we'll just, we'll just say Molk.

• 2:09:21Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:09:21Speaker 01

  Strawberry, right? Which one are you gonna choose? Which one are you, you, you?

• 2:09:28Jocko Willink?

  I think I'm gonna go for the adult. I thought you were gonna throw a, a Haagen Dazs strawberry shake in there.

• 2:09:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:34Jocko Willink?

  But here's the deal, I'm not picking the Haagen Dazs. It's too much.

• 2:09:38Speaker 01

  It's too much.

• 2:09:39Jocko Willink?

  It's too much.

• 2:09:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's kinda why I didn't say it.

• 2:09:41Jocko Willink?

  And it's not even, it's not even too much in a good way, it's too much in a bad way.

• 2:09:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:09:46Jocko Willink?

  It's like, it's like you don't wanna drink it. The strawberry Molk, you're like, pff.

• 2:09:49Speaker 01

  Just pounding it.

• 2:09:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:51Speaker 01

  Feel free, actually feeling good about things afterwards. Interesting, alright, well, I'm gonna try that one, I, cause I have not, actually, wait, I think he might have.

• 2:09:59Jocko Willink?

  He should have put some in the mail. It just, it just came out.

• 2:10:02Speaker 01

  I have not tried it yet, but I will report back 100%.

• 2:10:05Jocko Willink?

  Jaco White Tea as well.

• 2:10:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:10:07Jocko Willink?

  Don't forget about that. It'll get you an 8,000 pound deadlift, which is no big deal to some people, to me, it's kind of a big deal.

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  And it's organic, by the way, so, you know.

• 2:10:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, 100% organic.

• 2:10:17Speaker 01

  Certified.

• 2:10:19Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:10:20Speaker 01

  Also, yes, we have a store.

• 2:10:23Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 2:10:23Speaker 01

  Jaco has a store. So I made a video, I was fond of, of, about it, with nothing like super in-depth, but you know, I got all our friends, training partners.

• 2:10:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  You know, our people.

• 2:10:33Jocko Willink?

  Who you got?

• 2:10:34Speaker 01

  Noah.

• 2:10:35Jocko Willink?

  Noah.

• 2:10:36Speaker 01

  Oliver.

• 2:10:37Jocko Willink?

  Noah's got good arm locks.

• 2:10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's actually been like, I mean, on top of Greg McIntyre, he's been kind of my main training partner recently, the past few months. Yeah, the main one. He, so him, yes, Noah Oliver, Greg McIntyre.

• 2:10:51Jocko Willink?

  Greg Train.

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  Is in there. We got Nadine.

• 2:10:55Jocko Willink?

  Nadine.

• 2:10:56Speaker 01

  Belgian. Nadine. Um, Tim Ford. Did I say Greg McIntyre?

• 2:11:04Jocko Willink?

  Greg Train.

• 2:11:04Speaker 01

  He's all up in there, yeah.

• 2:11:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you got Dave Burke?

• 2:11:07Speaker 01

  Good deal, Dave.

• 2:11:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:08Speaker 01

  Good deal, Dave's in there. Jamie's in there.

• 2:11:09Jocko Willink?

  Jamie.

• 2:11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, and then the kids, can we say who's kids there?

• 2:11:16Jocko Willink?

  There's some kids in there.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  We'll just say there's some kids in there, yes.

• 2:11:19Jocko Willink?

  They're not my kids, they're not Echo kids, but they're kids. They're Warrior kids, we know that.

• 2:11:23Speaker 01

  Warrior kids, hundred thousand percent. Um, yeah, so yeah, Nadine's in there, Tim's there. Uh, anyway, the point is they're just our friends. It was just a cool, fun video, Jocko Store. You want, you want something good, or if you like something, get something. Nonetheless, jockostore.com is where you can get the shirts that say, "Discipline equals Freedom," if you want to represent in the wild, on the path. How's this? When I was, um, this was a while ago. So my, my, I had an extra shirt later on. It was a size medium for...

• 2:11:53Jocko Willink?

  That's what you wear?

• 2:11:55Speaker 01

  See, what's funny is I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you were gonna say something like that. Anyway, I'm taking pictures for this. You know, you gotta take pictures for the products, right, for the store. And for whatever reason, the size medium, that's the best looking size, I guess, for pictures. I don't know. Nonetheless, take the picture of it, but I have it laying around, right? So my wife is like, "Oh, this is the extra shirt," and you know, can I give it to like one of my friends or whatever? And I wasn't, I had no use for the shirt at this point. And I said, "No." Because I don't know if their friend is like gonna represent, you know, I don't know if the friend is on the path.

• 2:12:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  What if the friend's not on the path and they're wearing that shirt? That's, you know, it's different. There's more to it. That's what it feels like. You see what I'm saying? True story. Nonetheless, when you are on the path and you want to represent in the wild, you just go to jockostore.com.

• 2:12:42Jocko Willink?

  I was at the Joe Rogan Show.

• 2:12:45Speaker 01

  Sure, the 420.

• 2:12:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the 420 in San Diego. I was with Peter Attia.

• 2:12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:50Jocko Willink?

  And we were with a bunch of other dudes. And Peter Attia was reminding me that on Twitter...

• 2:12:59Jocko Willink?

  Somebody had said, hey Jaco, I wasn't in the SEAL teams, but I wanna show support to the SEALs. Is it cool if I wear like a Navy SEAL Trident on my hat or T-shirt? And my response was, I was in the SEAL teams for 20 years and I don't wear a SEAL team hat or T-shirt.

• 2:13:26Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:13:27Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  Wait, so does that mean yes or no?

• 2:13:29Jocko Willink?

  That means no.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, hell no, right? Because, okay, so coincidentally, me and Good Deal Dave Burke were talking about the exact same thing. So I forget how we ended up talking about it, but I was like, hey, what's the, what's the, cause he gave me his uniform. I was doing something with it for videoizing. So I don't know, for whatever reason, we ended up talking about, but like, what can you wear? Like, what can you not wear? What's off limits?

• 2:13:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:53Speaker 01

  You know, on this thing. And he told me is like, you know, some stuff in, but I don't know. So he had to sort of explain it to me. And that's essentially the scenario he painted. He was like, you know how like the Navy SEALs, like they have the Trident?

• 2:14:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  Like you can't just put on a Trident.

• 2:14:06Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:14:07Speaker 01

  You know, like, like if you're to, not that you bring the Trident here, but let's say for whatever reason you brought, I can't just grab it and like, kind of put it on. Even as like for fun, you know, it's like, but that's kind of off limits, you know, you can't do. And then, so he made the comparison to Jiu Jitsu belts too. Like if I grabbed your black belt and put it on, granted, you're kind of my friend. I could never.

• 2:14:29Jocko Willink?

  You wouldn't even put on the black belt?

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  Let's say I wasn't, let's say I wasn't even a white belt. Let's say I was like even like a purple belt. And my instructor, who I wasn't necessarily personal friends with, but that was happening to be my instructor. I can't put that belt on.

• 2:14:40Jocko Willink?

  What if he was, what if you forgot your belt? He was injured and he was on the sidelines and he was like, I'll just wear mine.

• 2:14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:46Jocko Willink?

  Would you wear it?

• 2:14:46Speaker 01

  He would never do that, but, and what's funny is Dave Burke brought that exact scenario up, different colors though. So yeah, good question.

• 2:14:54Jocko Willink?

  Someone was like, hey, just wear mine. It's a blue belt.

• 2:14:56Speaker 01

  He said, he's in, uh, the guy he was training with, I think he was a blue belt that he was training with. He was like, hey, I have an extra one. You don't have a belt. You need a belt to, to, you know, to train and stuff like that. Gives him his blue belt. Dave Burke said out of respect for the guy's like, you know, suggestion, he wore it, but he did not feel good about it at all. And I think, I think that's kind of the deal where if some higher belt gives you.

• 2:15:18Jocko Willink?

  You know what I used to give guys at, like in the, if they started training, I'd give them a, a piece of one inch tubular nylon, green.

• 2:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:27Jocko Willink?

  Which is just like to tie their belt.

• 2:15:28Speaker 01

  Do you remember Cameron? He's a Navy SEAL, right?

• 2:15:32Jocko Willink?

  Cam.

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, Cam. Good jiu-jitsu, by the way.

• 2:15:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, good wrestler and strong.

• 2:15:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:15:37Jocko Willink?

  You know, he came to my, this is a guy, you know Cameron came to my house and tamed the beast. You know that, you know what that is with kettlebell? Tame the beast, you get the forty-eight kilogram kettlebell. Which you don't have one that big. I do.

• 2:15:47Speaker 01

  Wait, forty-eight?

• 2:15:48Jocko Willink?

  No, you don't.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  I'll have a ninety.

• 2:15:50Jocko Willink?

  So, I have one, but before I had those, he ordered one and he was like in between houses at the time. So he, so he ordered and had it sent to my house. He gets it. He comes to my house. First time he's ever picked up a forty-eight kilogram, hundred and six pound kettlebell. And there's a thing called taming the beast, which is you do a press with that kettlebell. You do a pistol with that kettlebell and then you do a pull-up with that kettlebell. The first time he ever did it, he did it, he did it right in front of me. Like no warm-up, just boom, just did it.

• 2:16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's saying a lot, because he's not a large guy. Like, I'm bigger than him. He's like, what?

• 2:16:34Jocko Willink?

  Uh, one ninety-five.

• 2:16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:36Jocko Willink?

  Maybe not even. Maybe one ninety.

• 2:16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, yeah, I might give him like one. Nonetheless, yeah, that's, that's saying a lot. Nonetheless, the point I bring him up is because the first time he ever trained geek, because I trained with him before. And I was like, oh, this guy's probably, at the time, this was years ago, I was like,

• 2:16:52Jocko Willink?

  You were a purple belt?

• 2:16:53Speaker 01

  I was a purple belt. So I was like, this guy's probably like a purple belt too. So, you know, whatever, I trained with him. One day he comes in, in the gi. So I'm like, oh shoot, you know, that little party is like, kind of like, oh yeah, you know, let me confirm, you know, whatever. But he has a piece of that green, that dark green.

• 2:17:12Speaker 01

  Around his, and here's the thing, it doesn't just stand out, because it's like, it's kind of dark or whatever, but you see new guy come, you know, because he's sort of, you know how when you come and train for the first time in gi and some classes, kind of like most of those people, they kind of go down. Yeah, exactly, right. But this guy's a new guy. I knew who he was, so I was like, looking at him, like, okay, that's obviously a military piece of equipment. It's not a belt. It was funny, the looks on everyone's face though, like this, like, they're kind of looking at each other, like, what, can you do that?

• 2:17:38Jocko Willink?

  Has the whole world gone crazy?

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's really funny, but that's how rigid the belt situation is though. That's why you can't just grab a guy's belt and, as, I know people. Not specific people, but it would stand to reason, put it that way. It would stand to reason that even as a joke, if I grabbed like.

• 2:17:56Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny? As a joke, I've been like, here, just wear mine. Like, some people, you know, I've just been like giving people my black belt, like, oh, you know, like a, like a blue belt or a purple, here, you just wear mine. And I give it to him and like, like awkwardly, awkwardly make them do it.

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  But that's how, that's the dynamics of that, you know?

• 2:18:15Jocko Willink?

  Before I really knew Jeff Glover. He came down here and did a seminar. And he's like, hey, I don't have a belt. And I was like, yeah, you can use mine. And I was, I was actually worried.

• 2:18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:24Jocko Willink?

  Cause I, I've only had one belt. I've only had one belt my whole time, like one black belt. And I was worried. I was like, dang. I mean, not that I thought he was gonna like steal it, but I just was afraid, oh, you know, he's gonna throw, you know, he'll, he'll put in his bag and next thing you know, it's in Santa Barbara. And the next thing you know, I'll never see my belt again, my special belt.

• 2:18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was there for that day when he did it.

• 2:18:44Jocko Willink?

  Cause I wasn't here though. I wasn't here. That was the, I like was here and I had to go.

• 2:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:48Jocko Willink?

  And so I didn't get to, but he, he hung it back up, Jeffy Glover.

• 2:18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:53Jocko Willink?

  Took care of his brother.

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  I took a picture of him that day.

• 2:18:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really? We'll have to see if he's wearing my belt.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  He is wearing your belt in the picture and he's doing this and that picture ended up being used for a bunch of different stuff.

• 2:19:03Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 2:19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's kinda cool then. My belt made it kinda famous with Jeffy Glover.

• 2:19:07Speaker 01

  If you notice, like the belt is a little bit long. It's funny.

• 2:19:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, cause I'm thicker than he is.

• 2:19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you have like an A, what, you know, the belt comes.

• 2:19:14Jocko Willink?

  A three, yeah. And he's probably, he's an A one for sure, cause he's 155.

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  Yep. There it is. So, don't do that. Don't, don't wear John's trident.

• 2:19:20Jocko Willink?

  There was a guy, there was a guy at SEAL Team Two who is a just incredibly well-respected guy in the days. And he had, I think he had two sons and he was giving them like a, like a hat. Like a SEAL Team Two hat or something that had a trident on it. Or he had an old one that he was giving to his sons. Like, hey, I'm not gonna wear this and it's too old. And he made them cut the trident off of it. If they wanted to wear it.

• 2:19:47Jocko Willink?

  I was like, yes.

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. I dig it. And there's all those kinds of things, you know, like if even on a little super lower level, like, you know, if you made it through some little thing, like, I don't know, like one of these Spartan races or something that you only get this shirt or hat if you did it.

• 2:20:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:02Speaker 01

  You know, and even then, there's a little, I mean, it's, it's way more loose for sure. But, you know, like your wife puts it on or something, you're like.

• 2:20:11Jocko Willink?

  People like to represent that.

• 2:20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 2:20:13Jocko Willink?

  I know my daughter, I know my daughter's representing that state, state wrestling championships. Those kids up there, they're buying those shirts and sweatshirts like I read about.

• 2:20:23Speaker 01

  What if you came home and your wife had your trident on?

• 2:20:26Jocko Willink?

  Why would my wife have like?

• 2:20:27Speaker 01

  Just because she's trying to represent.

• 2:20:28Jocko Willink?

  Well, just take it from her.

• 2:20:32Jocko Willink?

  No, actually, there's a thing where, there's a thing where like a SEAL will give his wife like a little necklace with a trident on it.

• 2:20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you know, that's sort of there.

• 2:20:40Speaker 01

  Why? So she doesn't take his?

• 2:20:43Jocko Willink?

  No, I don't think she'd be trying to take his, but I think it's just, you know, little appreciation.

• 2:20:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 2:20:48Jocko Willink?

  But no, but no, my, uh.

• 2:20:50Speaker 01

  Your wife knows what's up.

• 2:20:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, my wife doesn't have one of those.

• 2:20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know she doesn't. Makes sense. So that's kind of how it is, right? With the shirts from Jaco's store, kind of. I mean, not to that level, but I put it this way. If I see someone wearing, representing, I know that they're representing. I know they're on the path right there. They're not just some guy who, person or whatever, that's not on the path. It doesn't seem like that.

• 2:21:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, they're definitely in the game.

• 2:21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:17Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:18Jocko Willink?

  They're definitely in the game.

• 2:21:19Speaker 01

  That's what it feels like.

• 2:21:20Jocko Willink?

  Shirt.

• 2:21:21Speaker 01

  Boom. So there you go. Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. I know seems obvious, but apparently it's not as obvious from what I gather. Nonetheless, subscribe if you haven't already.

• 2:21:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And by the way, that's, if you get a piece of gear, it supports the podcast. Is that important?

• 2:21:38Speaker 01

  Well, is it important? Hmm, depends on what you mean by important. So, yes. Yeah.

• 2:21:43Jocko Willink?

  I mean, it's important to let people know that the one additional bonus of representing is you're actually helping out the podcast support. We're gonna get a new table, by the way.

• 2:21:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:21:56Jocko Willink?

  Which has been ordered. Yeah, this one wiggles a lot. It's ridiculous.

• 2:22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:00Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles's table. Well. This is one of those things where, like, an apt punishment would be you had to bring this to your house and use it as your dining room table for a year.

• 2:22:10Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. No, yeah.

• 2:22:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Why would you even think this is a good table?

• 2:22:14Speaker 01

  I, you know, the picture looked nice.

• 2:22:17Jocko Willink?

  Check. Alright, so we're gonna get a new table. If you buy a t-shirt, we can get a new table that's not gonna fall down.

• 2:22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:23Jocko Willink?

  And all that. But we appreciate that support, too. And when you're subscribing to the podcast, check out the Warrior Kid Podcast. The Warrior Kid Podcast is aimed at kids, but I promise you that Uncle Jake has lessons for everyone. And also, we have a kid, a warrior kid, named Aiden. And he's making soap here in California. Irishoaksranch.com if you wanna get some, some soap, some Jaco soap, so that you can stay clean.

• 2:22:48Speaker 01

  The guy, he has a new one, too. Trooper soap.

• 2:22:50Jocko Willink?

  Trooper soap, yeah.

• 2:22:51Speaker 01

  Different.

• 2:22:52Jocko Willink?

  Has a rope on it.

• 2:22:53Speaker 01

  Soap and a rope.

• 2:22:54Jocko Willink?

  Piece of 550 cord, by the way.

• 2:22:56Speaker 01

  Layers, for sure.

• 2:22:58Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's some good stuff, by the way. Also, YouTube, we do have a YouTube channel. If you're interested in the video version of this podcast, if you wanna see what this table looks like.

• 2:23:08Jocko Willink?

  Weak table.

• 2:23:09Speaker 01

  It looks okay. Actually, you can't really see it, yeah. Nonetheless, you can see how wiggly all the books on the table and the microphone is kinda good. Nonetheless, if you're interested in the video version of this podcast, that's where you can find it. Also, some excerpts on there. If you don't wanna watch the whole podcast at once, you know, some excerpts on there, little lessons that you may have found important. You can kinda revisit those.

• 2:23:31Jocko Willink?

  Also got Psychological Warfare. Everyone that asks for an alarm clock with my voice on it, telling them to wake up or whatever. Let's get the Psychological Warfare soundtrack, the Psychological Warfare album on iTunes or Google Play or MP3 platforms. And there's a bunch of things on there of me telling you the right thing to do and why you should do the right thing. So, check that out. Also, check out Flipside Canvas. My brother Dakota Meyer is making. Art, is that the right word?

• 2:23:59Speaker 01

  Yes, it is.

• 2:24:00Jocko Willink?

  He's making art and putting art on canvases and vinyl posters that you can hang up and you can remind yourself the discipline equals freedom. You can remind yourself that all your excuses are lies.

• 2:24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that that's really good because a lot of people were and we have posters for sure on, you know, the store. But this is a little bit, it's like one, maybe like three or four levels better than, you know, a poster. Posters, posters are cool, man. Like, of course, you hang them in your gym, whatever. This is like, yeah, it's like a leveler.

• 2:24:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, multiple levels. Flipside canvas dot com and also support Dakota Meyer for crying out loud.

• 2:24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, big time. Also, on it, on it dot com slash Jaco. This is where you can get fitness gear, kettlebells. I recently posted a picture of my newest kettlebell, Stormtrooper, which I talked about. Yeah, it was a good picture. On it posted it as like a picture on their thing.

• 2:24:59Jocko Willink?

  You made it big time.

• 2:25:00Speaker 01

  Huge time. Made my day. Big time.

• 2:25:04Speaker 01

  No, but, you know, nonetheless, it happened. But yeah, you can get, you know, kettlebells on there, some ropes, some battle ropes. They got some good like immunity supplements too. That's the one I actually have been religiously taking this Shroom Tech Immune.

• 2:25:18Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:25:19Speaker 01

  You gotta take that one, especially if you're doing travel. Nonetheless, a lot of good, good stuff on there, on it dot com slash Jaco.

• 2:25:27Jocko Willink?

  Have a little book coming out called Away the Warrior Kid Three, Where There's a Will. It is available for preorder right now. If you want to help me and you want the book, please preorder it so that I know how many to print. I failed miserably when it came to Mikey and the Dragons. Mikey and the Dragons, I didn't make enough. I ended up having to scramble to make more. I apologize. We got them to everyone by Christmas, but it was a. It was not smooth. It was a little bit of a nightmare. Total failure on my part this time. Way the Warrior Kid 3, Where There's a Will. Check out that book. Preorder it now.

• 2:26:06Jocko Willink?

  It's coming out May 28th, by the way. So, we're almost there. But I can make more quickly. Quickly enough to have them ready for you if you preordered. Anyways, also, The Way of the Warrior Kid and Mark's Mission. Those are the first two books in that series. Mikey and the Dragons, best book ever for little kids in the history of ever. That's confirmed, by the way. And the Field Manual, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 2:26:33Jocko Willink?

  That's a book about how to get after it, no matter where you are in your life. It's a great place to start, or to keep you, to start on the path, or to keep you on the path. The audio version of that is on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play. Extreme Ownership, first book I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. The Dichotomy of Leadership, second book I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. Echelon Front, that's our leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. That's what we do. Go to echelonfront.com. The Muster, May 23rd and 24th, sold out, done. That's in Chicago. September 19th and 20th in Denver. That one is going to sell out. So is Sydney, December 4th and 5th. If you

• 2:27:16Jocko Willink?

  want to come to The Muster, extremeownership.com, that's where the details are. They're all going to sell out. All of them have sold out, and all of them will sell out. So, if you want to come, get on there and get registered. EF Online, I already talked about that. The EF Overwatch is where we take leaders from special operations, from combat aviation, and we place them into companies that need leadership inside their organization. So, you don't always want to hire someone just because they've been working in some industry for a long time. Hire someone that has leadership capability and then get them up to speed on the industry. These guys are proven combat leaders. They can step up and take you to the place you need. EFOverwatch.com.

• 2:28:01Speaker 01

  If you want to cruise with us hardcore, by the way hardcore cruising, which is my recommended level of cruising from time to time rest between sets. We're on the interwebs, Twitter, Instagram and on Facebook. You thought I was gonna do it like you, didn't you? Anyway, I'm at Echo Charles and Jaco's at Jocko Willink on all of them.

• 2:28:24Jocko Willink?

  And thanks to all our military folks out there that are on the front lines of freedom, standing watch and thanks to police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all first responders who maintain vigilance 24 hours a day, 365 days a year to keep us safe here at home and to everyone else out there. Remember some of those lessons from Field Marshal Montgomery.

• 2:29:02Jocko Willink?

  Remember to cut through the overlying difficulties and see the essentials of what you need to do and then take a dispassionate, a dispassionate view of good things and bad things that are going to assail you. And use your force of will to keep getting after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.