Vision Pro, Galaxy S24: it’s gadget season again

The Verge's Nilay Patel, Victoria Song, David Pierce, and Alex Cranz discuss the Apple Vision Pro demo, the Samsung Galaxy S24 announcement, and more of this week's tech news. Watch the video here Further reading: Apple Vision Pro hands-on, again, for the first time Apple Vision Pro demos will include scanning your glasses to identify your prescription The Apple Vision Pro has a ‘guest’ mode for your friends to try it Apple Vision Pro will launch with 3D movies from Disney Plus Netflix’s app won’t work on the Vision Pro Magic Leap’s CEO isn’t worried about competing with the Apple Vision Pro. Apple Watch ban: everything you need to know Apple Watch sales ban restarts Thursday Apple Watches without banned blood oxygen features will go on sale Thursday morning This smartwatch has the tech that sparked the Apple Watch ban Samsung is making a Galaxy Ring Samsung’s Galaxy S24 and AI event: all the news The Galaxy S24 Ultra is smarter, pricier, and just as big as ever Samsung’s Galaxy S24 Ultra might fend off scratches just as well as drops Samsung’s S24 and S24 Plus put new AI smarts in a polished package Samsung’s Galaxy S24 is first to be able to upload HDR photos to Instagram Google’s Circle to Search makes visual searches super simple Samsung’s Galaxy AI is coming to 100 million Galaxy phones. Meta’s new goal is to build artificial general intelligence Email us at [email protected] or call us at 866-VERGE11, we love hearing from you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:02Nilay Patel?

  Hello and welcome to Verchast, the flagship podcast of Spatial Computer. A form of computing that is all around you at all times on C-SER.

• 1:14David Pierce?

  It sneaks up on you.

• 1:16Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 1:16Nilay Patel?

  It's, uh, Apple's dream is to have just Eddie Van Halen just creeping, creeping. Eruption. Hi, I'm Neil. I'm your friend. David Pierce is here.

• 1:27David Pierce?

  Hi. I don't know how to follow eruption, but here we are.

• 1:30Nilay Patel?

  I mean, isn't that, that's the, that's the goal of all computing. The purpose of computers is to make great art and emotional experiences. I strongly believe this to be true. And what you, to do that most effectively, you have to design state of the art 4K OLED displays, micro OLED displays, two micron pixels. You have to convince the entire music industry to support Dolby Atmos and you have to convince people to wear the ski goggles so that Jimmy Page can just creeping, creeping.

• 2:03Nilay Patel?

  Think about it. You know, like 20 years from now, that reference won't make any sense and we'll be like, and then Halsey will be creeping, creeping and that will.

• 2:12David Pierce?

  Neil, I gotta tell you, none of what you just said made any sense now.

• 2:17David Pierce?

  So we're, we're starting to create.

• 2:18Nilay Patel?

  Imagine today's pop stars in the context of that joke. Like the point of technology is for Taylor Swift to just creep up on you from behind. Alex Cranz is here. Hi, Alex.

• 2:29Alex Cranz?

  I'm just wondering what the shoe situation is like, like, do they have to think about the shoes they wear when they creep up on you? Is that part of the spatial audio experience?

• 2:38Nilay Patel?

  It's a hundred percent true that Jimmy Page has to wear very quiet ninja shoes. The shoes with the toes.

• 2:46Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 2:46Nilay Patel?

  In Bill Viatmos. For some reason, Victoria Song has chosen to join us today.

• 2:51Speaker 06

  I, I'm here and I don't know why Radiohead isn't doing the creeping.

• 2:55Nilay Patel?

  They were, I mean, like shoegaze was a very quiet form of.

• 3:02Nilay Patel?

  The shoe, I mean, like, they had to look at their shoes. That's the joke that I'm trying to make.

• 3:09Nilay Patel?

  That's, that's what I'm saying. Cause they had so many guitar pedals. This is an entire genre of music that was named after nerds looking at their feet.

• 3:24David Pierce?

  And Apple's bringing it back. That's, that's, that's where we are.

• 3:27Nilay Patel?

  Quite a lot happened this week. Actually, the real reason Victoria is here is because she and I went and saw the Vision Pro. I saw it for the second time. Victoria saw it for the first time. There's a lot to talk about with that demo. Why Apple gave a whole bunch of the same demo over again to a lot of people. Then Samsung had Galaxy Unpacked. They announced the S24, which is full of AI. There's a smart ring. V covers wearable. So we're going to talk to her about the smart ring. I got a lightning round. By the way, Mark Zuckerberg just sort of appeared on our website this week. Creeping, creeping and announced that Meta's, the purpose of Meta is now to build AGI. Which you will recall, he renamed the entire company Meta to build the Metaverse. Didn't rename the company this time, but he just sort of appeared and said, Alex Heath,

• 4:11Nilay Patel?

  it's AGI now. And Alex said, what? We'll talk about that as well.

• 4:14David Pierce?

  Can you imagine how cool a move it would be if he just renamed the company like AI Incorporated?

• 4:19Nilay Patel?

  Yes. I mean, we're not, we're not far off.

• 4:22Speaker 06

  It took me so long to call it Meta from Facebook. It's not going to make it a second leave to AI Incorporated.

• 4:30Nilay Patel?

  There's some moves you only get to pull once. And renaming the company is one of those moves. Like you gotta, this clock restarts.

• 4:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:38Nilay Patel?

  You got another 15 years before you can be like, you know what? Actually Meta was the wrong name. Uh, but we can talk about all that. Let's start with the Vision Pro.

• 4:46David Pierce?

  Yeah. Well, and I actually, I think we should start with your experience having this experience, Neel I N V, because this was a weird, hands-on experience. Like we, we get a lot of these where we sit in a room and somebody gives us a demo of a thing. But the two of you had this odd experience where, uh, for the first time, this is very strange and I hadn't really thought about it until it happened. Regular humans were photographed wearing the Vision Pro. And so all over the internet this week, this has like become a meme of a bunch of like reporters doing the pinchy pinch gesture. Uh, and there's been like, you know, drips and drabs of information about how this actually went. But I think the way Apple is rolling this thing out and showing it to people is actually really interesting.

• 5:28David Pierce?

  So can you guys just sort of tell the story of your day with the Vision Pro? Via your experience, so like walk us through it to begin with here.

• 5:36Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, you know, um, I had read Neelai's write-up of the demo he got at WWDC.

• 5:41David Pierce?

  So I- Neelai's fever dream hands-on.

• 5:45Speaker 06

  You know, this is my fever dreams hands-on this time around. Cause literally 24 hours after it happened, I was like, did that actually happen? Or did I fever dream this all up? I, I wasn't entirely sure, but I felt like the imprint, the ghost imprint of the Vision Pro on my forehead for a full 24 hours afterwards. So yeah, it did happen, but yeah, Neelai was the only one who wasn't pinchy pinching in the photos. So.

• 6:09Nilay Patel?

  Can I, I would just, I'm just going to say this very directly. The purpose of this is very clear. Apple wanted to be in control of the first photos of people wearing the Vision Pro.

• 6:20Nilay Patel?

  I am fundamentally uncomfortable with the trade that we made here and that everyone else made. Because we went to the thing, they didn't tell us they were gonna give us photos to walk out with. We did the demo, demo is really interesting. I'm always excited to see a new piece of technology. There's an enormous amount of new ideas in the Vision Pro to contend with. Fun to look at it again. And they're like, oh, we're gonna take your picture. Do you want a photo? And I was like, yeah. And it didn't occur to me until I walked out of there that Apple took my photos. They selected which photos they were gonna airdrop to me. And then they did the same thing for everyone else. So we ran the photos. I think it is interesting to look at pictures of people in the headset. No one has seen that outside of Apple's marketing before.

• 7:01David Pierce?

  Yeah, and this has been kind of a closely guarded thing for seven months now. We really have not seen pictures of people in the headset until now.

• 7:09Alex Cranz?

  We have, but it was all like models in a gorgeously lit home.

• 7:13Nilay Patel?

  Well, excuse me, Alex.

• 7:15David Pierce?

  Well, right, we've seen ads of people in a headset.

• 7:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, Neil and I are gorgeously lit models.

• 7:21Alex Cranz?

  Like, sorry, sorry to all the models on this podcast.

• 7:26Nilay Patel?

  All I'm saying is we were in a gorgeously lit home.

• 7:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 7:30Alex Cranz?

  You were.

• 7:31Nilay Patel?

  But there's something weird there, right? Especially because it's a picture of me. And there's a picture of the and everybody else. There's some assumption there that that is our photo. Right, that, right, but it is Apple's photo. It's Apple's photo of me that they got to pick. And I know, you know, I know a bunch of other people who had this experience. They were trying to make funny faces. They were doing funny hand gestures and Apple just didn't give those photos to them. Weird. That's a weird thing that is part of this. And it's because Apple wanted to control those first set of photos. That's fair. That's Apple's prerogative. It's their product. It's not launched yet. I will just remind everyone, once people buy this thing, all bets are off.

• 8:10Nilay Patel?

  Right? And like, so this is that pre moment where everyone's getting excited about an idea that has a boundary. Right? And the boundary is still being very much set by what Apple is saying and doing and allowing to be seen about this thing. And eventually that boundary will disappear. And that to me, that's the fun part. I keep saying that is actually the fun part. Some dummy is gonna try to drive a Cybertruck with a Vision Pro on their face. I know what's gonna happen. I know the economics of YouTube and I know what that platform rewards. And like, that will be crazy and that is totally not contemplated by what it is now. And so you're filling all the space between what you are seeing and the dummy on YouTube driving the Cybertruck with Vision Pro with like your imagination, which is the best part of any product. That is, uh, by the way, the same thing is happening to the Rabbit R1 right now.

• 8:55Nilay Patel?

  That is a product that people are paying money, so their imaginations can run wild and then the actual product will do something or not do something.

• 9:01David Pierce?

  Yep.

• 9:01Nilay Patel?

  So I, just having like, worn it once and then worn it the second time and then seen that explosion of imagery, I was like, oh, Apple got what it wanted out of this. It got to control this first set of photos and some of the photos legitimately look extraordinarily cool. Like the dude from Cool Hunting in the hoodie.

• 9:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 9:20Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's cool.

• 9:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 9:21Nilay Patel?

  I, I think those were in LA. I think they did demos in New York and LA and I, I'm just gonna say this.

• 9:25Speaker 06

  The LA got the better photos.

• 9:27Nilay Patel?

  Better photos.

• 9:28Speaker 06

  All, like, we, we saw our photos and we were like, oh, oh, okay, you know, these are our photo. Yeah, sure. And then we saw the LA photos and it was like, excuse me, they have like really cool angles and everything like that. I just look like, I look like I'm saying one does not simply walk into virtual Mordor. That is like, that is what I look like in that thing. But, you know, Neelai was the only one in New York who looked remotely cool because he was just sitting there refusing to pinchy pinch.

• 9:57Nilay Patel?

  I did not.

• 9:58Speaker 06

  I loved it.

• 9:58Nilay Patel?

  There are two things I didn't play along with. And if you look at these photos, you can, you can just see that I'm a brat. I didn't do the hand gesture and I refused to tuck the cable behind my back, uh, which.

• 10:10David Pierce?

  Did they ask you to tuck the cable?

• 10:11Nilay Patel?

  They're like, when do you want to tuck the cable? And I was like, no, I'm gonna hold the battery pack in my hand. Uh, and they, what photos did we receive? You cannot see that me holding the battery pack in my hand. Um, the guy in the hoodie, that cable is running down the back of his hoodie.

• 10:25Speaker 06

  He legitimately stuck that battery pack down his hoodie just because like you can't see the wires like those immediately the first thing I clocked in his photo besides like wow, why does he get to look like Kylo Ren in VR and I look like I'm telling hobbits that they can't walk into virtual motor.

• 10:42Nilay Patel?

  Anyhow, I don't want to like over index on it. Again, it is Apple's product. It is their launch. That's how they want to communicate about it. Like I keep saying, eventually people are going to get the things and all bets are off. And that's fine. Like that's the gap. And I personally think that this, this period in between is when people get the most excited. And I'm certainly not going to tell people not to be excited. Right?

• 11:06Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 11:06Nilay Patel?

  I do think it is, it's just important to note like, oh, that is that I didn't take that photo. That photo was not editorially controlled by me. We were given the photos. And, you know, I'm a huge snob about these things. As everyone knows, all the time, I'm constantly talking about what a huge disclosure. I didn't take that photo. Right? The second piece, and I'm actually, I think this is where the gap between the experiencing it for the first time and me experiencing for the second time, there's some people who've gotten this demo four times now.

• 11:35Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 11:35Nilay Patel?

  Is Apple is basically running the same demo over and over again. They're not meaningfully different than the last time. So the second time I found myself paying way more attention to the hardware. Like the first time I was like, oh my gosh, the eye tracking works. That is extraordinarily impressive. Like I'm just, I've got my hands on my sides and clicking my fingers together. That just works. That is crazy impressive. And this time I was like, okay, I'm wearing a headset on my face. I'm absolutely looking at a screen and I'm wondering what this thing can do and where its limits are. And there, that second time, they were just more perceptible. I still don't know what they are because I was in a totally controlled 30 minute demo loop with like a lot of people watching me

• 12:16Nilay Patel?

  and people around me watching what I was watching on their iPads, which is just a weird way to live.

• 12:22David Pierce?

  And kind of coming in and out of your vision as they want to. That's always fun.

• 12:25Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:26Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. But the, the part where it's like you're, you're using the computer and they can see what your eyes are looking at because they're, they're monitoring you on the iPad. It's like, I didn't. I didn't push the boundaries of the Vision Pro in that experience. I was like, yeah, I'm looking at a, that's a webpage. But it works, like that thing still works even when you're trying to perceive the limits of the hardware, which is really interesting. V, I'm curious, how did you, this was like your first blush at it. You had the kind of a different experience.

• 12:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, so like, like I said, I read your thing about it, but actually experiencing it for yourself, you are not prepared for two 4K like screens being zoomed into your eyes and just like your brain trying to like square that. There was like a large part of it where I was like, oh my God, it can actually see where my eyes are going. And like cognitively, that was very strange. And then, you know, a lot of it, I just felt like, you know, they were laughing at me because I kept going like turning my head all around and trying to move through the space. And they were like, haha, you know, doesn't it look lifelike? And yes, but also there were parts where my eyes started going into overload, like overload.

• 13:36Speaker 06

  My eyes were just darting around all of the places. And that's when I think I started coming up against some limitations that you were talking about where I realized, oh, this is a screen because, you know, foveated rendering, it's a thing. And if your eyes are going at 20 million miles a minute, it's very hard for it to catch up with you. So there were parts where I was like, oh, I don't understand why it looks so blurry when I'm looking at this one thing. Oh, it's because it hasn't caught up to my eyes going 20,000 miles a minute. Cause I literally was just going like, like my eyes hurt after a while because it was going so fast. Cause there was just so many different things to look at and trying to see if like, if I look at it a different way, is it going to change? Oh, yes and no.

• 14:21Speaker 06

  So it's, it's really hard to describe what it's like and what you're seeing in there. But it's, it's very high res is one thing I could say.

• 14:31David Pierce?

  I mean, V, that kind of makes it sound like you didn't have a super good time inside of this thing. Like, I think there's an interesting thing for us as, as reporters where you go in being like, I'm going to ask questions of this thing where like, if I'm just like a regular person who bought it, I'm just going to put it on my head and see what happens. Did you, but like, I feel like most people's first experience, like Neela, you were talking about, comes away with. Like, holy shit, that was cool. And the, like, just the sheer technology, the pinchy pinch gesture, the eye tracking, like, you just come away from it being very impressed. It doesn't, I didn't get the read that you came from it, sort of blown away by your first experience with it.

• 15:08Speaker 06

  I think it's because I had time to sit with it, right? It's like, when you're in the moment, you're just kind of like, oh, my god, I can see the texture of the rock on this volcano that I'm sitting on. That is not something I was expecting. I literally was just like, oh, my god, that rock is so textured. Not a thing I was thinking about. But then, you know, and I think it also has to do with the physicality of the device. The longer the demo goes on, the more aware you are that you're wearing something on your face, because it's quite heavy, is what I'll say. Like, I, at the end of my 30-minute demo, I started getting a tension headache, because I really did feel it just, like, pressing on my face. And if you look at the pictures of the journalists, and if you look right here, where the nose

• 15:52Speaker 06

  meets, like, your nasolabial folds is, like, the correct term. But if you look at that part, right underneath the ski goggles, you can see it pressing on a lot of people quite hard. You can see it in my photos, and you can see it in quite a few people's photos. So, like, that was just a thing that kept bringing me back to the, to the fact that I was wearing something on my head, and taking me out of, like, the wonder of all of it. Because there are parts where you're just blown away, like, it is, I'm a Star Wars nerd. It is kind of cool to be in the Disney Plus app and be like, oh, I'm on Tatooine, ooh, I'm watching A New Hope. And that's kind of cool, but then, you know, you think about it for a bit, right? And it's sort of like, oh, you kind of come down.

• 16:33Speaker 06

  And I'm curious, Neelai, for your experience, being the second time around, did it just, like, wear off that quickly? Because I saw Marques Brownlee's tweet, where he was like, first time, oh, my god, wow, second time, still cool, and wow, but wow, it's a little heavier, and the third time, all he was thinking about was the weight of it on his, on his head. So I'm just curious.

• 16:51David Pierce?

  I am so hesitant to say fully formed thoughts about this thing.

• 16:58Nilay Patel?

  Because no one has ever spent time with it without a babysitter. Ever. And I, you know, this was in our comments and this is like the oldest thing in the world. Uh, and it's on threads. People are like, these reviews are great. I'm like, these are not reviews. At all. Like, not even a little bit. This is the most highly controlled experience you can have in the best possible circumstances. And yes, some people have had the experience more than once. So they are beginning to form thoughts. Like Marquez, I think has had the experience four times. Um, other people who did the spatial video demos earlier, uh, or I guess late last year. They've had the experience four or five times. Like, yes, you can begin to form some thoughts, even if you just repeat an experience over and over again. But I still don't know what it's like to

• 17:43Nilay Patel?

  virtual screen a Mac into it and try to use this as a computer monitor, which is a thing they really want you to do. I still don't really know what it's like to browse the web in it. And they showed us, I, we, V and I both got to open Safari and go to the verge by punching the dumb virtual keyboard that makes no sense. Uh, which we should absolutely talk about more. And so I'm just very hesitant to say, okay, this is what I'm beginning to think. Because that, the circumstances are, were so deeply controlled. That it's like, yeah, I think that thing's heavy, but I wasn't doing anything like that immersive, right? I wasn't, we were constantly context shifting, even in the demo. They're like, look at this thing. Look at that thing. Here's an F1 car. Take the wheels off. You're done with the F1 car. Yeah, they're just like showing you all the things you can do.

• 18:28Speaker 06

  It's like taking a tour, you know, it's like, and now look at this, and now look at that, and now look at this. So like, just it, it is hard to sit with any one experience more than like for a hot second because you're getting shepherded through like a tour of what they want you to see.

• 18:43Nilay Patel?

  For example, they showed us photos and videos that were shot on the Vision Pro in spatial video. And who am I? What, where am I? I was like, I'm going to evaluate the quality of this camera. And then seven seconds later, we were on to the next thing, right? And I was like, oh, I have some feelings about this, but I haven't spent any time with it. Right? Like that, that's weird. And I just don't want to like, I'm trying very hard to, to be careful. But the one thing I will say is Boy, is it obvious you're looking at a screen.

• 19:11Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 19:12Nilay Patel?

  Which is the thing they don't want you to think of.

• 19:14Alex Cranz?

  I do have one evaluation question for you, though. Joanna mentioned that she was using a different strap this time and it felt a little lighter. It was a little more pleasant for her to use Joanna Stern, friend of ours from Washington, uh, Wall Street Journal. Were you guys using the same strap? Like, are you using a different strap this time?

• 19:30Speaker 06

  No. So like, it was weird because they gave me the fabric strap. Because when you set the thing up, you do like the Face ID thing where you move your head around in a circle twice. And that supposedly like scans and gives you an estimate of like the fit for the light seal. And so when I walked into the room, it was ready for me. I did not get a choice as to which head strap I was going to use and I got the fabric strap.

• 19:54Nilay Patel?

  The solo strap, the big.

• 19:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, the solo strap. They showed me the other strap that Joanna was, and some of the other people were wearing, but I didn't get to try it out. All I got told was that one gives more support, which by the end of the 30 minutes, I was like, I could have used more of that support.

• 20:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 20:12Speaker 06

  Cause my hair was just.

• 20:13Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, cause that's what you guys used when you tried it out at WWDC, Neil and David.

• 20:17David Pierce?

  Yeah. Well, and that's, I mean, that's true of, of all the headsets we've tried, right? Like you're, you're definitely making a compromise between something that looks better and is easier to adjust and put on versus something that ultimately lands in a more comfortable place. Like the Quest, you can, you can either get the one strap or the strap that goes overhead, or you can get the Elite strap that's even more like, I think ultimately the answer is probably lots of different versions of this. And so it's, it's odd that Apple has controlled it in the way that it has. But Neil, to your point, I think your, your instincts are good and fair and right. Except that there's now a huge number of people, as you're listening to this podcast, are having to decide whether to spend $3,500 pre-ordering this thing.

• 21:02David Pierce?

  There are likely to be supply constraints. There's not going to be a lot of them. So for us to just say, oh, wait a few weeks until everybody has it and then you'll be able to get one, is actually not helpful because by a few weeks from now, it might be months from now before you can actually get one.

• 21:14Nilay Patel?

  I feel like the people who are going to spend $3,500 on the newest Apple gadget, that money is already committed.

• 21:19David Pierce?

  They already know.

• 21:21Nilay Patel?

  You know, like I, I think the. I mean, he is an actual reviewer. Like, the thing that reviews do now in 2024 is not always help people make purchase decisions. Like, sometimes it is, but for something like this, it's actually to put it in a cultural context, almost as much as help people decide whether to buy it. Because there's infinite, there will be infinity content about it.

• 21:46David Pierce?

  I don't know that I agree in this case, though, because I think whether you should buy a new phone or not, people mostly know the answer, right? Like, you're gonna buy what you're gonna buy. And I think if there's something wildly new and different, we have a responsibility to talk about it. In this case, it's like we've been talking about. Most people have no context for this thing. They have no experience of it. They have no idea what it is.

• 22:05Nilay Patel?

  I totally disagree with you. I totally disagree with you.

• 22:09David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 22:09Nilay Patel?

  Because Apple has been extraordinarily successful at making sure people don't talk about this thing, like a VR headset. And it is absolutely a VR headset. Just look at it. Look at the pictures. There are pictures now.

• 22:25David Pierce?

  I feel like you just agreed with what I said. People have no idea what this thing is.

• 22:28Nilay Patel?

  No, they absolutely do. The Quest 2, there are Quest 2s everywhere. The Quest 3 is not as popular as it should be. The Quest 2 is all over the place, all the time. I've put people in Quest, in our Quest 2 that I own, and watched them get blown away by how textured the dinosaur is. Like, this is not so out there.

• 22:46David Pierce?

  So you're saying even people who don't think they know what this thing is, know it more closely than they realize?

• 22:51Speaker 06

  I'm gonna 100% agree with Neelai on that, because I walked into the going, like, I don't know what to expect. And the more I spent time with it, I was like, oh, I've used a bunch of Apple products before. Actually, this feels quite familiar. Like, I kind of do know what I'm using, because like, you have the digital crown on the Vision Pro. I have worn every single Apple Watch since the Apple Watch Series 2. So that was super familiar. And then, you know, on the other side, there's a flat side button that you use to take spatial photos and video. That's just the side button from the Apple Watch. Like, everything inside the experience as well, it's like, it's like launching Launchpad on your Mac. If you've used Apple products, you kind of know

• 23:33Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 23:33Speaker 06

  what it's like. It's just Apple, but make it VR. That's kind of what the Vision Pro is.

• 23:40Nilay Patel?

  I would point out, by the way, you should read that as a compliment to Apple's designers, right? They took this very esoteric concept. They took the best of their concepts from other products. They married them together, and they made it all seem very obvious. It's Apple at its best. Like, that's what that company is good at. But I'm saying just conceptually, if you have worn another VR headset, I'm confident that people listening to the show have worn other VR headsets. We have been covering these products for a decade. But there's a decade of context for this thing.

• 24:10David Pierce?

  Sure. But then how do you explain the fact that Apple is giving people 30-minute demos in a store in order to be able to do this? Like, I just don't-

• 24:17Alex Cranz?

  Because, oh, no, no, I know this. Because not everybody has used VR headsets. They are really, like, if you don't have access to one, if you don't have a friend, if you don't have a friend who works at The Verge, you probably don't have access to one. You probably haven't tried it. And so for a lot of people, this will be one of their first experiences with VR outside of, like, the horrible experience you see at a mall or an arcade. And it sounds like it is probably one of the best VR experiences that you guys, that everybody on this call has experienced, including, like, those, was it the Varjo? That's like a $1,000, $1,500 headset?

• 24:53Nilay Patel?

  Talk about things people have no experience with. You know, the Varjo.

• 24:57Alex Cranz?

  That's the only one I've used. I don't use any other headset.

• 24:59David Pierce?

  Yeah, this is better than that. I can say fairly confidently.

• 25:02Alex Cranz?

  It's just me out there using my Varjo. But, but it is like, a lot of people probably, they understand VR conceptually. They might have used like a garbage version. And Apple is hoping that their version is so advanced, is so much improved, that, that it's something different. I don't know if that's true. I haven't tried it. I don't know if that's true. It sounds like so far from every one of you get your experiences, it's better, but it's not like, well, we don't even need to call this VR anymore, which is what Apple very much wants us to all hope.

• 25:32David Pierce?

  I so do not buy the premise that most people understand VR conceptually. I just don't.

• 25:37Alex Cranz?

  No, I don't think they, I don't think they do. I agree with you there, where I think, like, people probably understand conceptually this is a VR headset, but also don't understand conceptually what VR is.

• 25:46Nilay Patel?

  Wait, let me try to split the difference.

• 25:49Nilay Patel?

  Let me try. I don't know if I'm gonna be successful. Let me try. Okay. I think people understand VR headsets. That's where I disagree with David. I think Ready Player One is a movie that Steven Spielberg made. Like, that's a real thing that exists. People understand it. You can... Meta sells these things every Christmas. People buy VR headsets and they play games. A few people do. A few people... Forty million, forty million, I think. Quite a lot in the scheme of things, right? Like, we've talked a lot on the show about how supernatural is the thing that drives the most Meta Quest sales to women and people over forty. Like, that's a growing business for them, so much so that the FTC tried to stop them from buying it. So like, there's just a thing there that is interesting, right?

• 26:33Nilay Patel?

  There is some acknowledgement of the product category by some larger group of people. And it has been around for a long time and there is culture built around it, like Ready Player One and other things. Then there's Apple saying, "This is not a VR headset. This is spatial computing. This is the future." It is, you know, one of the things that I'm curious to think about when we actually get these things outside of control is like, what is the delta between a $400 Quest 3 and a $3,500 Vision Pro? It is impossible to know right now. Like, you have to just like sit there and look at both of them and experience both of them and find out. It's the Varjo. It's the Varjo. The thing right in the middle is the Varjo at $1,000.

• 27:14Nilay Patel?

  But, you know, the Quest line is basically a mid-range Android smartphone on your face. The Vision Pro is an M2 processor on your face. They are different. They're gonna have different capabilities. Are the screens meaningfully different? I don't know the answer to these questions.

• 27:32Nilay Patel?

  But Apple's positioning this thing is not competing with the Quest 3. And the thing that jumped out at me in these demos is how few of them were actually AR. Right? Like the Disney Plus app, they're putting you on Tatooine, they're putting you in the Avengers Tower. Those are straight up VR experiences. It doesn't matter what room you're in. When you watch a spatial video that you brought in some spatial video that I shot of Max on my iPhone 15 Pro, you can watch it, or you can like put it in like a theater setting. And I was like watching like video in Holly Akala, like, and it was awesome. Right? Like, the thing they do in that demo, you're watching a video, and it

• 28:12Nilay Patel?

  will take the highlights of that video and reflect it onto the clouds below the mountain. It's so, it's like so cool. Still 100% a rendered VR experience. Like, I'm like, where's the AR? And they're like, here's a full-size F1 car in the room with you.

• 28:29Speaker 06

  Just rip off the car, the wheels off the Alfa Romeo.

• 28:33Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, they're like, here's an Aston Martin F1 car, in Jigspace, which is a cool app. And it's like, well, one, okay, so I need a room that's big enough to hold a car. And then I'm gonna look at this car. What now? Where's the stuff? Like, where's the thing? Where you're augmenting reality? Where you're creating computing in space? I would point out, Apple's also not calling it an AR headset. Right, they're saying spatial computing. Apple's trying to invent this other thing that currently means nothing. Well, it has some sort of definition, right? It's been around for a minute.

• 29:06Alex Cranz?

  Apple is spinning. One, I just want to correct, I said Meta Quest 2 sold 40 million headsets. I'm wrong. It sold 20 million as of 2023. So, half of that.

• 29:16Nilay Patel?

  All right, so my argument's a little weaker than it was before.

• 29:18Alex Cranz?

  Sorry, sorry about that. 20 million people have tried it, at least. Probably, I mean, we could say up to 40 if you count like, the Virtual Boy and the Quest 1. David's like, no, we're not doing that math. Refuse.

• 29:32Speaker 06

  Putting that aside, just putting that aside, how many people have tried iPhones? How many people have tried MacBooks? Like, what I really think Apple is selling here is the Apple-ness of it. Like, by calling it- You know, Apple always does stuff. It's like they give a different name for something that we already know by another name. So by calling it spatial computing, they're just going like, oh, but Apple's doing it now.

• 29:53Nilay Patel?

  But let me just, 20 million is, I understand, it's not everybody. The Xbox One, as of September 2023, has sold 33 million units. And there's not a person on earth that you're like, do you know what an Xbox is? And they're like, what are you talking about?

• 30:08David Pierce?

  Yeah, because we've had video game consoles for 40 years.

• 30:11Nilay Patel?

  And you've had VR headsets for a decade.

• 30:13David Pierce?

  And no one has tried them.

• 30:17Speaker 06

  20 million people.

• 30:18David Pierce?

  Six months after Atari came out, you think everybody on earth knew what a game console was?

• 30:24Nilay Patel?

  Maybe. I mean, they made the movie The Wizard about the first.

• 30:31David Pierce?

  I just, I think like, A, I think the way Apple markets its products at the beginning has next to nothing to do with what those products ultimately are. Like, if you go back to 2007 in the iPhone, 2010 in the iPad, 2015 in the Apple Watch, like, the way they talk about those products is nothing like what they became. It just isn't. And so I think, I posted, after you guys posted your pictures, just being, saying, basically, if Apple can make these things cool to wear in public, it'll be the marketing coup of the century. And I got, I mean, dozens of replies from people being like, Apple's not marketing that way. I was like, I don't give a shit what Apple is marketing it with. Like, five minutes after that thing goes on sale, somebody is going to take this thing into a coffee shop and go on a run where, and that's like, that's how this stuff works.

• 31:13David Pierce?

  You buy it, you do whatever the hell you want with it. And I, like, we have so few answers still about what you're going to do inside of this thing, or how you use it, or what it's like, or if it's a better monitor than my monitor.

• 31:27Speaker 06

  Now, David, that's not true. We're gonna have Fruit Ninja.

• 31:31Nilay Patel?

  Disney Plus.

• 31:32Speaker 06

  Disney Plus. Like, a wealth of opportunities.

• 31:36David Pierce?

  Fantastic. How?

• 31:37Speaker 06

  Yeah. I will say that I do think they expect people to take it out into the world, just because when I was getting my demo, like, one of the use cases they were talking to me about was like, you're gonna be on a plane, and you're still gonna be able to interact with your stewardess when she asks you for whether you want a drink or a snack.

• 31:54Nilay Patel?

  Dying to wear this thing on a plane. I've never wanted to do anything more. I'm gonna go on like a status run, just to collect my, whatever horrible new system Delta is doing now, and wear this headset.

• 32:06David Pierce?

  And you're gonna have to charge it six times.

• 32:10Nilay Patel?

  So we should talk about that. This is the stuff that is legitimately new and like honestly, like a little silly and like in the best way. So you're in a VR experience and we should just call it that. You're in a virtual environment inside the headset. If someone walks up to you and you look at them, they just sort of fade into view and then you can see them.

• 32:29Speaker 06

  It's really weird.

• 32:30Nilay Patel?

  It's odd. In this, actually this very funny moment in my demo, I was like playing with this, right? Cause there's, I'm sitting on a couch, there's people around me, the apple people are around me. And I forget that they're all watching what I'm doing. So I just kept looking at them to make them fade into view. And eventually one of them was just like looked up at me like, what are you doing? Cause I was just staring at them. He'd be like, are you, are you going to appear? And they're like, and then they appeared and they were looking at me.

• 32:57Alex Cranz?

  How, how similar is it to that moment in Lord of the Rings where Gandalf just slowly appears and like from the whiteness in front of?

• 33:05Speaker 06

  It's kind of like that. Like I just, the thing that came to my mind was like Casper, the friendly ghost, just very slowly ghost of VR future coming into your, into your periphery. And it's very strange. Like, I don't.

• 33:19Alex Cranz?

  Hello Devon Solwa.

• 33:20Speaker 06

  They're kind of semi-transparent and just floating in the middle of a volcano.

• 33:25Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 33:27Speaker 06

  It's, it's weird. But then like viewing it from the outside, because you know, we can't see ourselves. Like I think the photo is the only like concept that I have of what I look like in that thing. But we did get to see another person using it and get a look at eyesight. And that was just, I, I'm still processing what eyesight looks like.

• 33:47Alex Cranz?

  That's the, that's the, the eyes appearing on the front of the display.

• 33:50Nilay Patel?

  And so the reason we weren't able to do that is to, to do that, they've got to create what's called a persona for you. This is your, your virtual head that will appear in FaceTime calls.

• 34:00Nilay Patel?

  I know, that's the only way to describe what it is. And then that virtual face, when you are in the headset and you start talking to someone, your eyes show up on the front display of the headset. It's fancy googly eyes. Like, we get it, yeah. It's weird. It's weird, because it's obviously a render of eyes.

• 34:18Speaker 06

  And it's like, a render of your eyes.

• 34:20Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 06

  So like, when you blink, it blinks. When your eyes are open, they're open.

• 34:24Nilay Patel?

  Did you try to make eye contact with the person who's giving you the demo? I have never stared in another person's eyes the way that I stared into that person's eyes. And they were virtualized. And I was like, are you looking at me? Because I'm looking at you.

• 34:37Speaker 06

  It's weird. And like, there's different cues that happen with eyesight. So like, if they're looking at you, you can tell they're looking at you. But if they're not looking at you, but their googly eyes are looking at you, you can kind of tell because there's like a blue flash that comes up. And that's supposed to signal to you that they're not focusing on you. They're doing other things within the headset.

• 34:58Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 06

  And if they're fully immersed, you don't see the eyes at all. It's just like that shimmer that appears.

• 35:04Nilay Patel?

  Creating all new ways to be rude to someone at a bar.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:09Nilay Patel?

  But Apple's marketing says no one's gonna take it to a bar, Nei. Sure. No one's gonna do that.

• 35:14Speaker 06

  They're 100% gonna take it to a bar.

• 35:16Nilay Patel?

  Nei specifically is going to take it to a bar. I'm gonna be hammered in this headset 24/7 on a plane. I live in the sky now, everybody. Just flying around wasted. I'm dying to see two people in two headsets try to communicate to each other. Like, just think about the enormous amount of signal processing that needs to take place in order for those two people to make eye contact. Right? You've got to put on two headsets. They both have to capture a virtual depiction of you. Then it has to take a real-time video of your eyes, process that into a 3D model of your face, display that on a front screen, which is then captured by a camera in the second headset.

• 35:59Nilay Patel?

  Which then has to re-render that into reality to display to someone else's eyes, which are in turn being captured and displayed on a 3D rendering of that. And it's like, you could just take the headsets off, but I'm dying. I'm absolutely dying to make this happen and just be like, this was a lot of work.

• 36:15Speaker 06

  So like, if we were in the room and we were both wearing the Vision Pro and talking to each other, would we just like, materialize in each other's screens?

• 36:22David Pierce?

  And would you be wearing the headset?

• 36:24Speaker 06

  Would we be wearing the headset? And would I be seeing you wearing the headset with your eyesight on in my screen? That's just like, it's breaking my brain. Or would it be the digital avatar?

• 36:35Nilay Patel?

  When I say these were tightly controlled 30-minute demos, what I mean is, I asked to have that experience and I was met with almost dead silence.

• 36:44Nilay Patel?

  Nope, that's just not a thing that we're gonna... And I was like, okay. Like, I understand, like, eventually, I keep saying this, eventually, people are gonna get them. We will get a review in it by hook or by crook. And we will spend time with this thing, asking some questions right now, that fill the gap between everyone's imagination and reality. And that gap, I'm just gonna keep underlining it. That gap is magical. Like, that's the fun part of liking technology. You're like, you can imagine what these things can do. And I'm, the reason I keep pointing at VR headsets is like, there's actually something you can ground these experiences with, that exists today at scale. They might not be as good, but the gap between, I have a Quest Pro sitting here.

• 37:28Nilay Patel?

  The gap between a Quest Pro, which we did not give a good review to, and the Vision Pro, that's the thing to evaluate. It's not, here's a magical new experience. No, it's a headset. You can look at the pictures and you can say, okay, this is a VR headset that contains a lot of ideas about the future of computing, for sure. But it very much has some of the limitations that are inherent to this form factor, like, for example, having to be on your head.

• 37:55Nilay Patel?

  Like, that's just a limitation of this form factor that is easily comparable to everything else that's ever been in this form factor.

• 38:03Speaker 06

  I think one other question I have is like, with the experience, like, we're grounding it in VR headsets that we've had, right? But the thing is that most of, like, 900,000% of my experiences in regular, regular VR headsets is gaming, and there was not a single gaming demo to be had in the Vision Pro. So that's kind of one thing that's been in the back of my head. I was just like, okay, the obvious use case for VR is gaming in this point in time. But I don't think we've heard a lot about gaming in the Vision Pro. We've heard about it, like, as entertainment and some sort of productivity platform. But are, am I really gonna do that?

• 38:43Alex Cranz?

  Well, Meta bought all the good gaming companies for VR.

• 38:46David Pierce?

  That's true. That's real.

• 38:47Alex Cranz?

  So, so that's part of it. And then, like, we're getting Fruit Ninja, and I have no doubt Fruit Ninja is gonna have you with a virtual sword, cutting the stuff yourself, right?

• 38:56Speaker 06

  I'm gonna be pinching. I'm gonna be pinching the fruit.

• 38:58Alex Cranz?

  Pinching, pinching the kiwi. But like, that's, that's what I, because I was looking at that, too, because that's what I care about. No disrespect to everyone who wants to have all of their meetings in a room with everybody wearing a headset.

• 39:09Nilay Patel?

  You cannot wait.

• 39:10Alex Cranz?

  I, I wanna, I wanna spend $3,500 on a sick gaming headset. Uh, I don't, but...

• 39:16Nilay Patel?

  It's called a Vargo.

• 39:17Alex Cranz?

  Yeah. Oh, my God. I'm gonna go get a Vargo. The best experience.

• 39:24David Pierce?

  I love that we're getting away from the pronunciation of that product, just a little bit every single time we say it. It just gets, we get a little further away from it.

• 39:32Speaker 06

  Virgo. That's actually the name.

• 39:33David Pierce?

  Yeah, it's the Virgo headset. It's the, it's the Vigo Mortensen headset.

• 39:37Nilay Patel?

  This is as much as we know about the Vision Pro. We got, we did get to see the Disney Plus app. There is some other drama. Netflix is not gonna make an app for this thing. That news broke this week. They're just like, use the web browser. That's fine. That's weird. Uh, it sounds like app developers as a whole have not rushed to this platform yet, which is... Fine, the platform doesn't exist yet. I wouldn't expect a bunch of app developers to be ready to ship on day one. But there are some big questions about what this thing is for, how it actually works. It's $3,500 to get one. You have to go, you have to either go to a store or upload your prescription after scanning your face. Like, there's a lot of steps between now and lots of people having them. And I think there's just a lot of caution in the, in the

• 40:22Nilay Patel?

  middle of all of that.

• 40:23David Pierce?

  Yeah. And I think for the, the funny position Apple is in right now is it, it's having to reckon with the fact that it's Apple and it's very hard for Apple to quietly launch a product. But fundamentally, this is, this is like a public beta of a thing, right? Like, Apple does not think this is the final version of this. It's not what anyone believes is going to be where we're headed overall in a decade. And this is the kind of thing that like Snapchat would call like the next rev of spectacles and still be like, this is just a fun thing we're messing around with. And Apple, because it's Apple, has to come out and say, this is the future. We've solved everything. This is perfect. And it just puts you in a funny position as a marketing enterprise.

• 41:04Nilay Patel?

  Here's a question I'll leave everyone. Because again, we, none of these reviews, stop calling them reviews. It's driving me bananas. People actually have to review them, whether it's us or whoever, whatever reviewer you trust, like, whatever independent reviewer you trust to spend a lot of time with something and give you an opinion, go trust them. I hope it's us. You know, we try really hard, but whoever it is. The question that's going to be embedded in all those reviews is if Apple thinks the future is AR, which Tim Cook has said over and over and over again, and then this is a simulator of an AR device, which is kind of the framework that I'm just going to start with, right? This is a simulator of the thing they want to make. Well, then showing us all these VR experiences, having a light

• 41:47Nilay Patel?

  seal, blocking you off from the real world and putting you on top of the volcano or an Avengers Tower, that's not AR, right? That is, those are VR experiences. And there's a real tension in this product between the things a VR headset is inherently good at, especially when you spend all the money on it, and the AR simulator it might wish to be. And I, I truly do not know how they will pick those paths. Because if you just want a pair of glasses, or you just want a pair of contact lenses, which, you know, is the end state that they have talked about in the past, wow, you're not going to be able to block off light and put everybody in Avengers Tower.

• 42:27Nilay Patel?

  So like, how do you, how do you get from here to there if everything good about this product is VR?

• 42:31Alex Cranz?

  I mean, that's the same challenge that Meta is facing, right? Who said the same thing, AR is our future. This is where we're going. All of this stuff is just a step on the way to AR. I think they're just, I think Meta is just more open about this than, than Apple is. I think Apple is in the exact same place Meta is with only their high end headsets gonna probably sell better and perform better. But otherwise, I think ultimately it's, it's, it's very similar space of we're not there yet. The, the technology doesn't exist. The things we want to do to make AR cool isn't possible yet. So we're gonna do the, we're gonna do a really good VR headset because that's the way you start to normalize the stuff that's gonna be necessary for AR. But Apple's much quieter about it because they want us all to think that they've created a new form of computing

• 43:16Alex Cranz?

  when everybody knows they just made a really cool VR headset.

• 43:19Nilay Patel?

  Well, no, if you listen to David, no one on earth has ever heard of a VR headset before.

• 43:24David Pierce?

  That's definitely what I said. That's right. Well, and ultimately, this is the first VR headset anyone has ever tried on in the history of the universe. Apple actually invented the term VR, just this. No, I think ultimately what, what all these companies seem to be saying is that VR is a feature of AR, right? Like those two things are not mutually exclusive and ultimately you want both. But the thing we can do right now is pretty good VR. There's not much evidence yet that we can do pretty good AR. And I think, I think to Alex's point, like Meta is pretty open about that. Some of the other headset makers are pretty open about that. And Apple, just by virtue of the way the company operates, is not allowed to say it's bad at anything.

• 44:08David Pierce?

  So instead it's going to keep imagining new futures that it has invented, even as it goes through the same stages as everybody else.

• 44:14Nilay Patel?

  I feel, even though we had demos, we played this thing again, I'm just gonna keep repeating this. And we should move on to talk about what's going on with the Apple Watch and the Galaxy Ring.

• 44:22David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 44:23Nilay Patel?

  Cause we do have V here, but we don't know anything yet. Even the people I know who've worn this thing five times, they don't, they don't know anything. It's, we have to take these things outside of Apple's control. We have to try to wear them on airplanes and behind Cybertruck wheels. Can you imagine the Cybertruck wiper in this thing? Do you think the Cybertruck wiper moves too fast for the Vision Pro's cameras? I'm dying to know.

• 44:48Nilay Patel?

  There's a whole other thing that happens when a product is actually released that is the important thing. And that I'm just gonna keep everybody focused on that because you cannot know right now. And that, to me, is utterly fascinating. Like, it is kind of the best moment because anything is possible and everyone can have all the dreams they want. And then you're gonna put on the headset and your weird rendered eyes are gonna look into the eyes of someone you love and you're gonna be like, am I still cool? And there's gonna be an answer.

• 45:15Speaker 06

  If you ask that question, no.

• 45:17Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. This is what I do with every piece of new technology. I just look at someone directly in the eyes and say, am I still cool?

• 45:25Nilay Patel?

  And that person is always Becky and she's always like, you never were.

• 45:30Nilay Patel?

  All right, very quickly, let's talk about what's going on with the Apple Watch, which is somewhat simple, I guess.

• 45:38Speaker 06

  It's banned again.

• 45:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's banned again.

• 45:39Speaker 06

  It's banned again. So, you know, it's just been kind of a back and forth where this is really funny again, because usually I think Apple is so used to winning that the fact that it's losing a lot against Massimo right now is just kind of very fascinating to watch, just because, so earlier this week Bloomberg was suggesting that, you know, Apple is going to drop the blood oxygen feature from the watches in order to get around the ITC ban and that basically US Customs and Borders was like, yeah, that works. That's cool. That's totally awesome. But that wasn't confirmed, right? At the beginning of this week and then yesterday, basically, we heard that the Federal Appeals Court was like, yeah,

• 46:24Speaker 06

  we're not gonna extend the stay on this ban. So, starting today, 5pm, ban's back on. You can't sell this stuff. And then, you know, late last night, Apple was like, haha, guess what, guys? We're gonna sell versions without the blood oxygen feature. So that's how we're getting around that. Those went on sale today. So that's, that's currently where we're at with the Apple Watch ban. And it's just, it's just like, just pay Massimo? Like, you could just end this. You could license this.

• 46:52Nilay Patel?

  A deeply funny C-line of the story is that Massimo added a new board member this week. And it's Bob Chik, ex-Disney CEO. It's fantastic.

• 47:01Speaker 06

  He's gonna make it tech.

• 47:02Nilay Patel?

  It's pretty good. He, since leaving Disney, has, I think he was always bald, but he's gotten more aggressively bald in a particular way. The photo of him, it's like he's wearing Massimo's word, it's like, oh, Thanos is on the board now. Like, that's very much the vibe. It's pretty good. This is just that, right, the ban is still temporary because Apple has an appeal going. And the hardware is still in there, it's just not accessible by the software. And your point has always been like, this is the least useful piece of the Apple.

• 47:33Speaker 06

  It is, it is the least useful as of right now, piece of tech in most smartwatches, to be quite frank, because like, what are you using blood oxygen for, right? In COVID, everyone was all on pulse oximeters because you could tell whether, you know, you were, your lungs were working, whether they were breathing. But the thing that people have to realize is that these are not FDA cleared pulse oximeters, right? They're wellness gadgets. You are taking a spot check at any given second as to how much blood oxygen you have in a second. You have to sit there for 15 seconds, still, you can't move for it to tell you what this estimate of your blood oxygen is.

• 48:14Speaker 06

  And for the vast majority of people who are not having any kind of lung issues or whatever, if you're healthy, 99.9% of the time is it's going to be over 95 and you're going to find out, I don't have to worry about anything. The other use case for pulse oximeters within these smartwatches is to tell you whether you have breathing disturbances at night. So you're just going to get an average in the morning of what your SpO2 level was. And for 99% of people who are healthy, you are going to see that it's either above 95%, you're good, or it's going to be below that and you're going to be like, oh, I'm a side sleeper, so it messed up. Therefore, I can't really trust that. Because if you are a side sleeper, it is going to tell you that it's lower.

• 48:59Speaker 06

  Like, Garmin's tell me regularly that my SpO2 level at night is 91%, which is, that's, that's like, you should be going to the hospital if you start getting to those levels. So it is not really all that trustworthy. The only thing is like, in the mid to long term, these companies are looking at pulse oximeters as a way to detect sleep apnea. The only company that's remotely close is Withings, and even they're not saying it's sleep apnea, right? They're saying- Breathing disturbances, which may indicate at some point that you may be inclined to sleep apnea. So maybe you should go to a doctor. So it's really not that serious of a feature right now. It's just not.

• 49:40Alex Cranz?

  So you keep buying the, if you were planning to buy a watch, the Apple Watch, you can still just go buy it?

• 49:45Speaker 06

  You can still go buy it. It's fine. The SE is not impacted. And, you know, it's really funny because whenever I recommend products, for most people, I say, you're going to be fine with the SE. You're, it's totally good for you. And they're, they just have FOMO. They just want all the stuff.

• 50:01Alex Cranz?

  It's cool looking.

• 50:02Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. What if I need to light up an 80 decibel siren in the middle of woods? Come on.

• 50:08Alex Cranz?

  SE can't do that.

• 50:09Speaker 06

  No, no, it can't do that, but neither can the regular Series 9. It's only the Ultra that's going to be doing that for you with it. Well, I know you have the Ultra. I know you have the Ultra.

• 50:21Nilay Patel?

  You also got to try the actual Massimo smartwatch at CES with the features.

• 50:25Speaker 06

  Yes, so they're calling it the Freedom, which is just like, okay.

• 50:28Nilay Patel?

  Are you serious? That's amazing.

• 50:29Speaker 06

  Yes, it's called the Freedom. It's 46 millimeters. It's a big chunky boy and they told me like a zillion times, so I have to say it. It's an early prototype. It might not look like this when it comes out later this year. But, you know, it's kind of the, they, they were very much telling me that they're putting out a smart or smartwatch. So this is a smartwatch that's going to have timers, it's going to have notifications, it's going to work with your phone more fluidly. It's going to have a better app experience. It's going to have health tracking experiences, which sounds an awful lot like an Apple Watch, right? So they keep telling me that the reason they're putting out this watch is so that it can tout its sensor accuracy. Because all these companies be out here, according to Massimo, with sensors that are not accurate,

• 51:14Speaker 06

  that are not giving you the, the actual results that you can trust. But they're going to give you the health results that you can trust and it's going to be smarter. So, you know, you sit there and you're like, so you're trying to kill Apple, right? This is the Apple Watch killer. And they're like, no, this is, this is about us. This is about us and our sensor accuracy. And, you know, of course they have to say that, but you just look at this thing and you're like. I see you are coming for the consumer wearable space. And they're not the only medical tech company doing that. You know, at CES, I saw Movano. Movano is a medical tech company, and they're coming out with the smart ring that has also got, you know, they're in the last stages of FDA clearance for their particular sensors. In the past, I've seen medical tech companies come out with like Almiron.

• 51:58Speaker 06

  They had a blood pressure smartwatch at CES. So it's not the first time that the medical community has been like, we can try hardware. We can make that work.

• 52:07Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 06

  But it's just very interesting, given the backdrop of the Apple Watch ban, that Massimo is out here and like, hey, we got hardware too.

• 52:15Alex Cranz?

  Well, speaking of rings, there was also the big Samsung announced that they're going to do a smart ring now. Is it going to be as cool as Aura and Movano and everybody else hopping in this space now?

• 52:26Speaker 06

  Well, the cool thing about the Galaxy Ring is that they were like, hello, we're here. And then there's a ring, and it's spinning in space, and there's stars on it, and it looks gorgeous. And they're like-

• 52:36Nilay Patel?

  The video was sick. If you haven't seen the video, you should go watch it. The little like reveal video of it is pretty badass.

• 52:41Speaker 06

  Very cool. And then they're like, and we will give you no details.

• 52:44Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 52:45Speaker 06

  And I, you know, I was looking at that, I was like, okay. But also, this is clearly going to be a sleep tracking or a competitor, just because, you know, at CES, and I wrote the story, at CES, there were a buttload of smart rings, more smart rings than I've ever seen in my life at CES, at all different price points, at all different like feature sets. So for Samsung to come out here and be like, yeah, we're also getting on the smart ring train, I think this is the year of the smart ring. I really do. And, you know, it's one thing to go to CES and say, Movano, nobody, unless they read my work, nobody knows what Movano is. If I say Zep and Amazfit or Amazfit, this budget thing that has basically replaced Fitbit

• 53:30Speaker 06

  in the, for that market, they're coming out with a smart ring, people are going to be like, okay, you wearable nerd, sure, sure, you're saying-

• 53:37Nilay Patel?

  No, no, this episode of Verchass, we got Vargo, we got Movano. I want to call out Shelly, it's a DIY smart home company. We're just name, we're just name little companies.

• 53:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, so you know, like, if I say that there's a bunch of small companies out here that are putting out smart rings, this is gonna be a thing, people are gonna be like, "Okay, Fee, Pat, Pat, you know, you're a wearable nerd, of course you think that's gonna happen." So for Samsung to come out and be like, "Hi, guys, we got a Galaxy Ring, I'm just super vindicated in my seat over here," just going like, "Yes, see, I told you, I told you, smart rings are gonna be a thing, this is a thing that people are really thinking about, and it's because there's a huge segment of the population that is really mad that they have to charge their smartwatches if they want sleep tracking." So the obvious answer here is that you have a smart ring, which is gonna be more accurate for that anyway, because the bottom of your finger is more accurate for heart rate tracking,

• 54:31Speaker 06

  it's more accurate for blood oxygen tracking, and the battery's gonna last longer than your Galaxy watch that lasts maybe two days if you're really good about battery management. So I really think that this is their answer to that.

• 54:44Nilay Patel?

  Also, just from a market perspective, the wrist has been claimed. Yep. You cannot replace the thing that's on many people's wrists, so you're like, "Ah, let's try fingers."

• 54:54Speaker 06

  There's that, and I'm just curious, because the one thing at CES that stood out to me was Amazfit with their ring was just like, "This is gonna be a standalone, but also it could be a companion wearable for your wearable." So it's gonna work with their smartwatches, and I think if Samsung really wants to be smart about it, they'll do the same. They'll be like, "Okay, this is your smart ring, and it's gonna work with your smartwatch, we've spent the last two years working really, really hard on the sleep tracking."

• 55:25Nilay Patel?

  Can I just tell you, my graph of the Wearable Success Formula, it's just 15 more axes just sprouted off that graph. I was diligent, and I didn't, I didn't say anything about the Vision Pro and the graph, but now we're like, "We got wearables on top of wearables, we need exponents in this thing."

• 55:44Speaker 06

  I'm telling you, this is where we're headed, because not everyone wants a wearable that's gonna be, you know, an extension of their phone, right? A lot of people who are going for the smart ring, they don't want the notifications, they don't want their kind of, I think it's the next evolution of the fitness band, which is like, RIP, it's gone, the smartwatch has devoured it completely.

• 56:05Nilay Patel?

  I'm telling you, so the dorkiness cost is going down the curve? See, and then the the cost, cost is low. Smart rings, they're up in the upper right, depending on how they look and whether or not you have to refer to them as the galaxy ring, which depending on who you are, either a huge positive or a huge negative.

• 56:24Speaker 06

  From like the the one person who I saw online who got to see the actual prototype, it's supposedly very light, supposedly looks nice. We'll see the render, it looks like an aura ring, but make it galaxy. So we'll see, because a lot of people will look at an aura ring and be like, oh, that looks really cool. And then other people will be like, that is so chunky. Get it the F away from me. Absolutely not. But, you know, on the design front, I think smart rings are starting to evolve a bit. I saw the EV ring. It's very cool. It has a little gap up top, so when you're bloated and you can't get your ring off, it can still come off. That's, I'm just saying, Samsung, that's right out there. You can copy that and make the galaxy ring next level.

• 57:07Nilay Patel?

  Well, that's the galaxy ring to power AI. All right, speaking of AI and galaxy stuff, V, we gotta let you go. We gotta take a break. We've fallen way over in the first segment. That's how we're doing today. But V, thank you so much for coming on. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna come back and talk about the rest of Galaxy Unpacked and the S34. We'll be right back.

• 57:27Speaker 00

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• 58:29Nilay Patel?

  All right, we're back. There's more Samsung to talk about. You ready?

• 58:32Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, I'm ready.

• 58:34David Pierce?

  Phones.

• 58:34Alex Cranz?

  Phones.

• 58:35Nilay Patel?

  So it's fascinating that Samsung chose to do the Galaxy event a week after CES.

• 58:42Alex Cranz?

  Is it?

• 58:43Nilay Patel?

  It's fascinating that Google showed up at the Samsung event more assertively, I guess, more loudly than they did at CES.

• 58:50David Pierce?

  Yep.

• 58:50Alex Cranz?

  Yes, that's true.

• 58:52Nilay Patel?

  Just quite a lot of dynamics there, right?

• 58:54Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 58:54Nilay Patel?

  Samsung can attract a bunch of attention without CES, so it makes sense. But Google put a lot of its AI features in the S24 this year, which is really interesting.

• 59:02Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, empowered by the Google Gemini, right? Like the large language model that a lot of the generative stuff is going to be doing is Google Gemini, which I don't think is surprising. I know some people were like, why wasn't it ChatGPT or or Microsoft, whatever Microsoft is doing? And it makes sense. Google makes Android. They work closely together. Why wouldn't they use the people who are already doing this stuff in their own phones?

• 59:24David Pierce?

  Google and Samsung also desperately need each other to compete with Apple. Like neither neither one of them can beat Apple on their own. They've both tried and both have failed. And the way to do it is together, and it's working pretty well. But my big takeaway from this event is I am super, super bearish on the future of the Pixel now.

• 59:45Alex Cranz?

  Yes, same.

• 59:46David Pierce?

  Google clearly believes Samsung's phones are the flagship Android phones now, and that it should treat them as such.

• 59:53Alex Cranz?

  That was my vibe, too.

• 59:55Nilay Patel?

  I just want to point out that Samsung strikes so little fear into Apple's heart that Tim Cook refuses to pronounce the name Samsung correctly.

• 1:00:03Alex Cranz?

  What does he say?

• 1:00:05Nilay Patel?

  He says Samsung every time, every time. And I can't tell if it's a diss. I can't tell if he just doesn't know. It's just go listen to him say it sometime.

• 1:00:14Alex Cranz?

  That's a diss.

• 1:00:15Nilay Patel?

  Tyson has caused no fear in this man's brain. Like, you can do the EEG and you're like Tyson, and just nothing lights up.

• 1:00:23Alex Cranz?

  He's like Tizen?

• 1:00:26Alex Cranz?

  That's like, that's like a, an older southern person does. They always like to be like, oh, I just forgot the name. Is that how you're supposed to pronounce it? And they never, they refuse to learn.

• 1:00:35Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's very good. Anyway, but I agree with you, David. That's my way of saying I agree with you. Like, it needs to be the combo platter.

• 1:00:41Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Nilay Patel?

  And I think Apple, there's a lot, you know, between Apple and Google and the search deal and all this stuff. But on their own, I think Apple's like, what? And that's, they, they are both still very reactive to Apple in that particular way. But we should talk about the S24 because it is meaningfully ahead of the iPhone in certain ways.

• 1:00:57David Pierce?

  Yeah, and this will almost certainly be the Android phone of 2024. Like, it's wild to say that the second week of January, but I think we can fairly confidently say.

• 1:01:06Nilay Patel?

  At least in the United States, this will be the benchmark.

• 1:01:07Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, because they don't, they don't do the note, like, the note isn't kind of the big landmark anymore for them. It is, it is this S series. And so we got the S24, which is, continues to be kind of the smallest one. It's small. It's 6.2 inch display. Like, that's enormous. But, and then there's the S24 Plus, which is 6.7 inch display. And then the S24 Ultra, which can't have the same size display, so it is 6.8 inches.

• 1:01:35David Pierce?

  Way bigger.

• 1:01:36Alex Cranz?

  Just, yeah, just a tiny, tiny bit bigger. Same with the batteries. Like, the S24 is like a 4,000 milliamp battery and you're like, okay, cool. And the S24 Plus is 4,900, cool. And then just a little bit bigger, the S24 Ultra is at 5,000. And, and big, big cameras here. Like, I'm curious for you guys. You guys geek out, you in particular, Eli, geek out about these cameras a lot more than I do. The, the backside of the S24 and the S24 Plus is both a 50 megapixel wide camera with a 12 megapixel ultra wide and a 10 megapixel 3X optical zoom and the 30X space zoom. So you're getting kind of the same camera package in both of those.

• 1:02:18Alex Cranz?

  And then the S24 Ultra is totally, it feels totally different. It's a 200 megapixel wide. Same ultra wide, same tele zoom, but then a 50 megapixel tele 5X zoom instead of the space zoom, which like, that feels.

• 1:02:35Alex Cranz?

  Cool.

• 1:02:36David Pierce?

  And that's the one. So one of the things that Samsung said about that zoom camera is that because they took it from the S23 Ultra, which had a 10x zoom, they actually took it down to five, but because they upped the resolution so much, what Samsung claimed, at least to Allison Johnson and our team, is that you'll get more image quality at 10x zoom, just because you have so many more pixels to play with, even though you're doing digital cropping. And, uh, digital zoom is not a thing. It's just cropping your photos. And, uh, everyone should know that. But the, the thesis at least is that you're still getting higher image quality, just because it's capturing so much more light in the 50 megapixel sensor. So I think that the math of that is fascinating. And I'm really curious to see how that stacks up in reviews, but the cameras are nuts.

• 1:03:19Nilay Patel?

  So I think there's the math and there's also just the caution to the wind AI processing that Samsung is doing. Why will those photos look good? Cause Samsung's like, make them look good. And the AI is like, it wishes my command. Here's some shit I made up. What is a photo?

• 1:03:36David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Alex Cranz?

  Moons everywhere.

• 1:03:38David Pierce?

  This took longer than I expected, honestly.

• 1:03:40Alex Cranz?

  I was really impressed with Eli. I was like, I should have like a little clock timer.

• 1:03:45Nilay Patel?

  Well, we'll come back to that because there's one particular what is a photo rabbit hole that we should fall down. But there's, there's a bunch of other AI stuff here going on.

• 1:03:52Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:53Nilay Patel?

  Google powered AI stuff.

• 1:03:54Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, there's a ton of stuff. Like they're, they're going all in on translation, which was for the longest time, that was a really cool pixel feature, was that you could kind of translate things on the fly and, and transcribe things as well. And, and that's coming to, to the Samsung, uh, the S24 lineup. And then on like the image side of things, there's a lot of photo editing that you're going to be able to do now. You're, you can just like circle something and it should get rid of it. Kind of that Photoshop demo we see all the time now on the S24, which is both cool and hilarious because people were like using it to circle out like watermarks.

• 1:04:28Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Samsung's own attempt to make you know, things are AI copyright or AI generated was to put a watermark and then you can tell the AI to remove the watermark.

• 1:04:35Alex Cranz?

  It's beautiful. No, no, it's beautiful. Those were like the things that I was particularly excited about just because I love to not have to open Photoshop anymore. The longer I can go without opening it, the better for me.

• 1:04:49David Pierce?

  I will say the one that really got me was the idea of being able to make 120 frames per second slow motion video out of anything.

• 1:04:56Nilay Patel?

  This is the rabbit hole.

• 1:04:57David Pierce?

  Oh, is this your rabbit hole?

• 1:04:59Nilay Patel?

  This is the rabbit.

• 1:04:59David Pierce?

  Oh, I thought the rabbit hole was going to be the thing where you can, you can move the horizon on a photo and it'll fill the edges instead of having to crop the edges. When you take your, like you take a rectangular photo and you turn it a little to correct the horizon, you're going to have these empty spaces in the corners. The S24 will generatively fill those corners to make it still feel like a rectangle.

• 1:05:18Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, but I can do that in Photoshop. Like, I definitely never, ever done that in Photoshop.

• 1:05:24David Pierce?

  Alex, we have had the can you do this in Photoshop and does that negate all of this argument so many times?

• 1:05:29Alex Cranz?

  And I'm bringing it back.

• 1:05:30David Pierce?

  And I think that it does, but we have to let Nilay have this.

• 1:05:33Nilay Patel?

  No, filling in the edges is like, whatever, because the edges are usually not the subject of your photo, right? So like, am I lying about whether there's a little bit more water there? Maybe I'm lying, maybe, who cares, right?

• 1:05:46Alex Cranz?

  A little more wall. What is it?

• 1:05:48David Pierce?

  This is so much more like blasé than you were about the pixel.

• 1:05:51Nilay Patel?

  I've been beaten down, man.

• 1:05:53David Pierce?

  I can move someone over on a bench. That's outrageous, but there's more water over there?

• 1:05:57Nilay Patel?

  Yes, fine. Levels of outrage. This is nuanced. Real time nuance is being developed. Also.

• 1:06:03David Pierce?

  That's so boring.

• 1:06:04Nilay Patel?

  I do think that's not a photo. It's just not, I trying to gin someone up into an outrage cycle over there's a little more water. Even I can't do that. All right.

• 1:06:13Alex Cranz?

  The 120 frames per second.

• 1:06:14Nilay Patel?

  I took 50 frames and I made all the people look at me in a way that never happened. Still dangerous territory to me. The, the ultra slow motion, the most dangerous territory. Because now this thing is generating entire frames that never happened, right? Entire frames and creating a video, a slow motion video, which people are more attuned to thinking is real than any, watch this back in slow motion. Let's see what really happened. And every other frame is a lie, right? If you, if you go from 30 frames a second to 120 frame slow motion over the same duration, boy, that's, that's a lot of frames that never happened. And Samsung's like, yeah, we'll put a watermark on it. And then you can be like, yeah, get

• 1:06:59Nilay Patel?

  rid of the watermark.

• 1:07:02Nilay Patel?

  Like, this is, when I say this is the what is a photo apocalypse, like, this is more apocalyptic what is a photo shit.

• 1:07:08Alex Cranz?

  I'm gonna throw a wrench in this because the TV companies, weren't they already doing a lot of this already?

• 1:07:13David Pierce?

  Yeah, this is just what interpolation is.

• 1:07:15Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, just making up frames and sticking them in there. Only it's now the people who are like, we're gonna invent the moon.

• 1:07:20Nilay Patel?

  Well, wait, wait, it really depends. Like, there's a lot, there's a lot of different ways TV companies have done this. The dumbest way they've done it is like 3-2 pulldowns, where you have a refresh rate on TV of 60 hertz, whatever, and you're throwing 24 frames per second content up there, and you just double the frames. Right? You do three frames of something, then two frames, that's a 3-2 pulldown. Like, that's fine. You're just showing sort of double the frames to match your refresh rate. Then there's a little bit of the AI upscaling that is occurring on TVs right now. Fine, that's weird, but there, like, there's something else happening there that is not this thing, where you're like, I'm gonna capture this video, or I'm gonna insert any video into this editor, and it will now create a slow motion video.

• 1:08:04Nilay Patel?

  It will actually generate, outside of real time, other frames. Whereas a TV is like, I'm gonna play back this video to you, and in real time, in an ephemeral way, I will throw away this data when I'm done with it, create new detail, or create frames in the middle. Like, there are very few TVs in the market today, none, I think, that you can just feed a video signal to, and it will create a slow motion video and claim that that is a correct slow motion video.

• 1:08:29Alex Cranz?

  So, is the difference for you, one goes real fast and one goes real slow?

• 1:08:32Nilay Patel?

  The difference for me is, this thing generates files that you can then pass around as information, whereas a TV is just doing different display tricks.

• 1:08:41David Pierce?

  In theory, if you scroll frame by frame through one of these 120 frames per second videos, you will land on a series of frames that never existed in the world.

• 1:08:50Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, you will land on a series of moments that are entirely generated.

• 1:08:54David Pierce?

  Right.

• 1:08:55Nilay Patel?

  And you will not be able to trust those moments.

• 1:08:57David Pierce?

  And that trips over some line that, like, it takes the eyes from this photo, and the eyes from this photo, and the eyes from this photo, and puts them all into one photo, because that's where all the eyes looked best. Like, that at least is, those pixels were real and captured and existed in the world. Putting them together is one thing, but with this, you're actually creating something, no pixel of which was captured in the real world.

• 1:09:21Nilay Patel?

  Yes. 0% of those pixels were captured. I'll just, I'll give you an example. It's the NFL playoffs. Was it a catch? Right? Like, here's a real thing that like people argue about all the time. Was this a catch? And what do we do? We crop in, we slow motion. And now we're like, we're gonna let a computer decide whether that ball hit the ground. Somewhere in the middle.

• 1:09:42David Pierce?

  And it's gonna have to guess where a football went, which is not following a normal trajectory.

• 1:09:46Alex Cranz?

  I feel like that's not gonna happen.

• 1:09:49Nilay Patel?

  Why not? Wait, I'm sorry. Have you, football fans are gonna like, like, literally.

• 1:09:55David Pierce?

  I was not convinced until you said that example.

• 1:09:57Nilay Patel?

  They're gonna hold up their Samsung phones to the TV, capture the video of the replay, and say, make this slower. And they're gonna post that to wherever and argue about a bunch of fake images.

• 1:10:07Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, but.

• 1:10:07Nilay Patel?

  Literally fake images.

• 1:10:08Alex Cranz?

  Also, but there's gonna be a ref who's gonna have a very fancy camera, who will be like, that's wrong.

• 1:10:14Nilay Patel?

  There, those refs.

• 1:10:15Alex Cranz?

  Do I trust in refs too much?

• 1:10:17Nilay Patel?

  That's like, just one example. I'll just, it's the lowest stakes example, although, given the prevalence of sports betting, also a very high stakes example right now in America. That's just one thing. It's an election year. Right? What if, I don't know, Trump stumbles over some stairs, or Biden stumbles over some stairs, or appears to stumble over some stairs, and a bunch of people on either side want to take video of that and then create a bunch of fake frames, or it looks like they stumbled more than they did. Or they slow it down. And as we know, things in slow motion appear way more dramatic than real time. And you send that out. And now you have a slow motion video, many of the frames of which never happened. Like, that is the apocalypse, because people are inclined to

• 1:10:57Nilay Patel?

  trust slow motion video to say what really happened. In here, there's nothing. There's no, all the stuff we've heard about content authenticity, all the, whatever. Samsung's like, what, you can just do it. No watermarks, no cryptographic signature, none of this other stuff. Like, it's just here's some AI stuff. And just had, like, heedless. And when I keep saying the what is a photo apocalypse is here, it's like, oh, it's this stuff.

• 1:11:22Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:22Nilay Patel?

  Where actually, the end state is no one trusts any media, because they all know how easy it is to generate anything. And then now you're, that's a really weird place to end up.

• 1:11:32David Pierce?

  We're getting there really fast, I think, too. I've, I've, I've just consistently been amazed by how quickly, just in my own life. People are adopting that sort of reflexive skepticism of like, oh, this is a picture. It's probably fake. It's like the burden of proof is now like, prove that it's real, not prove that it's fake. It's very strange.

• 1:11:51Nilay Patel?

  Right, this is a deep fake. This is just a thing people argue all the time.

• 1:11:54Alex Cranz?

  It feels bad, but also at the same time, if it means we never have to see the shark swimming in the highway water ever again, like.

• 1:12:00Nilay Patel?

  Oh, you will. It's not that people aren't just gonna hit like on social media or there won't be grifters. Like, if we could get to a place of pure skepticism where that stuff faded, fine. But this stuff is already out there. I'll give you an example during the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, which was in Wisconsin. So pay attention to it. Kyle Rittenhouse, his lawyers argued that some of the photographic evidence could not be used because the iPhone has AI in it.

• 1:12:28David Pierce?

  Right.

• 1:12:28Nilay Patel?

  We, I think we covered this on the show. And they won, like the, you know, the, the local prosecutors in Kenosha, Wisconsin were not ready for that argument. Surprise, surprise. And they were just like, yeah, we're gonna exclude this evidence because we're not ready to have a bunch of experts come in here and say, what is a photo? That's years ago. This happened years ago. And now we have Samsung phones that can take any video and interpolate frames that never happened. What are you gonna do when that stuff hits a courtroom? What are you gonna do when that stuff, when there, when there is like dramatic amounts of money in sports books on the line? And you wanna claim that the refs are rigged? Like, there, there's no responsibility here. Like, we're just past the point of no return with what is a photo?

• 1:13:12Nilay Patel?

  Because the answer for a Samsung video is like, these are not, these are not videos that you can trust.

• 1:13:16David Pierce?

  Right. No, I, I think you're right. And I do think we're pretty clearly past the point of no return on this. And I think we have to figure out what the next thing is, right? Whether it's a watermark, whether it's the cryptographic stuff you're talking about, like, we've been threatening to do the metadata episode for forever. And like, that's the thing, because it, we're, we're long past the thing where you can straightforwardly trust every single thing that you capture just because it's light projecting onto sensors, right? Like, we've been past that for a long time. And I think, I, this strikes me as, I, like, I take your point about the football example, which I actually think is a really good one. Like, a ball is moving unpredictably.

• 1:13:59David Pierce?

  Literally, the camera is going to guess where it went, and it's gonna get it wrong sometimes. And that's bananas.

• 1:14:06David Pierce?

  But I don't know, this doesn't strike me as like, an entirely new field of scary stuff in this way.

• 1:14:13Alex Cranz?

  I kind of agree with Neelai in that it does feel like the, the, the bar has been raised on like, this, or lowered. The bar has moved significantly in one direction or another, depending on, on your point of view. And that it's a, it's now so, so much easier to make fake stuff with your phone. Like, like this phone, the S24.

• 1:14:34David Pierce?

  Sure.

• 1:14:34Alex Cranz?

  Is put Photoshop in your pocket in a way that wasn't there before. And Photoshop has often been like, that, that's been a massive tool for misinformation since, since its inception. And, and now anybody can go and they can circle something and get rid of it. Or they can film something and have a computer decide which way the ball goes. And that just wasn't possible, uh, before this. So it's like really cool stuff. I'm really excited about it from like, a personal perspective as someone who likes to make stupid things. Horrified for it on like a society.

• 1:15:07David Pierce?

  Yeah, I also think one of the, one of the debates we had around the pixel was there, where the sort of ease threshold is. Because I think, and this is where the Photoshop thing comes in, right? Just because you can do complicated things in Photoshop. It changes it when it is just a button you can press in the camera app on your phone. I think we all agree on that.

• 1:15:23Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:23David Pierce?

  And the thing about this one is it's, it's gonna be just complicated enough to do what you're describing, Neelai. That I think that might be the reason it bothers me less is like, not only do you have to shoot this video, you're gonna then have to, uh, run it through this process to get you the 120 frames per second thing. You're gonna have to find a frame that looks good that was generated, which it usually won't. Cause if you shoot something at 120 frames per second, each individual frame usually kind of looks like shit. And then you're gonna have to take that thing, isolate it out and then go do something with it. And that, that to me is like more steps than the pick somebody up off a bench and move them over there. That that second thing actually alarms me more just because it is so simple and straightforward to do that people will do it and a lot.

• 1:16:07Alex Cranz?

  But that's spoken from someone who probably doesn't have like a thousand dollars writing on the next Green Bay Packers game.

• 1:16:13Nilay Patel?

  I don't, um, I don't gamble. I spend all my money on limousines.

• 1:16:17Alex Cranz?

  You know, there's people out there.

• 1:16:18Nilay Patel?

  Use of money.

• 1:16:19Alex Cranz?

  Who, who knows who those folks are, but, but there is like, like, I think the incentives are low enough, probably going to be a low enough for a lot of folk or high enough for a lot of folks that that little extra effort isn't going to be as big an impact for them. And we're seeing the same thing with deep fakes, right? Like deep fakes were something that we kind of could be like, whatever. It's, it's, it's hard to do and it's gotten so much easier to do a deep fake now.

• 1:16:42David Pierce?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:42Alex Cranz?

  Do a really good one that, that, that misinformation potential has really skyrocketed. And it feels like the S24 brings us to that place in a beautiful package brought to you by Samsung. That was my Tim Cook impression.

• 1:16:56David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:57Alex Cranz?

  Did it work?

• 1:16:57David Pierce?

  I think you have to have a song harder.

• 1:16:59Alex Cranz?

  Samsung, sorry, Samsung.

• 1:17:00David Pierce?

  It's like people who say TV.

• 1:17:03Nilay Patel?

  I'm just telling you to go listen to it. Other little bits and bobs AI wise of the S24 line. Google is bringing a bunch of Gemini model stuff to it. You can have circle stuff to search on the phone, which is finally, finally use for circling.

• 1:17:19Alex Cranz?

  I love that it called Allison out. Like she tried to get, she tried to like cheat it. She's like, aha, try a picture of like this fake plant. You're going to tell me it's real. And it's like, that's a fake plant. It costs nine dollars. And she's like, rude.

• 1:17:33David Pierce?

  Dude, Google Lens is really good. Like it's, it's a remarkable part of Google search that I feel like doesn't get talked about as, as an AI product in the way that it should. It's really good.

• 1:17:43Alex Cranz?

  And now.

• 1:17:43David Pierce?

  And they now have the multi-search stuff where you can take a picture and then ask a question about that picture. And it'll like the, the example they gave is like, you take a picture of a backgammon board and say, how do I play this game? And it'll figure out that it's backgammon and then use Gemini to tell you how to play backgammon. That stuff is cool.

• 1:17:59Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:00David Pierce?

  And that's real, like future of search stuff. And that's where all the, so the circle search comes in. You're like, oh, I see this bag in a video that seems cool. Circle the bag. Send it to Google, buy the bag.

• 1:18:10Nilay Patel?

  What's interesting to me, all the generative AI stuff here is either image editing, which comes with its own obvious philosophical dilemmas, or it's like. Sort of LLM stuff, right? Like, search for something, it'll talk to you about it. You can, there's magic compose and all this stuff in here. The middle piece that Samsung was kind of reaching for with Bixby is not here, right? Which is what we saw with the Rabbit R1 at CS, where it's like, you tell your phone to do something and it just like does it. And if you will recall, Samsung's attempted differentiation with Bixby, its voice assistant, whose name sounded like a dog wearing shoes, was that you would be like, "Set some settings," and Bixby would go like, "Set some settings for you," in a way that Siri and Google Assistant kind of can't.

• 1:18:54Nilay Patel?

  And it's, it's striking to me they have not closed this loop on that phone, because that's what you would expect.

• 1:18:59Alex Cranz?

  Because we saw, it wasn't just Rabbit we saw this with, like, a lot of the TV companies were like, "We've got AI in our TV. Oh, really? What does it do?" "It makes your, your picture prettier. Figures, figures it out." And so you'd think Samsung would do this, and I, I, I'm kind of like, is there, is there something happening with Google and the relationship with Google? That's like, kind of restricting that, or is it just, they haven't gotten there yet?

• 1:19:21David Pierce?

  I think it's just harder work than people reckoned with. Like, the, the idea that I could tell my phone to, whatever, turn on Bluetooth, doesn't seem that hard, but it is actually, it's, it's a leap beyond just understanding what Bluetooth is, right? You have to have a different kind of access to my system, and a different kind of access to the tools and the stuff that I actually want to do. And this was the problem with a lot of these things that, that have come out. First, the tech sucked, right? Like, they had it built in the right direction, but it wasn't very good. And now we have LLMs, which are much better at understanding what you mean, but are not connected to the metal in the same way. And I think the, the next phase of this is to put those two things together, right?

• 1:20:04David Pierce?

  Like, Google has made a lot of noise about Gemini being built into Android more and more over time, and I'm, I'm sure that's coming. But right now, Gemini is like, built into Google Photos more than it is built into Android. And so the next phase of that is to just pull it down a level in the stack. But that's just, it's harder work than it seems like it ought to be, but it is sort of surprising that no one has really gotten there yet.

• 1:20:26Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, they just haven't closed this loop. It's like, I want you to play this song. It's gonna like click around on Spotify for you.

• 1:20:31David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:31Nilay Patel?

  This is the device where that actually makes sense. The rabbit, I think, captured a lot of imagination, but that's still what it is doing.

• 1:20:38David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:38Alex Cranz?

  It's got their clicking wheel.

• 1:20:40Nilay Patel?

  Right. What if I just still had my big screen and great camera and it could still do that for me?

• 1:20:44David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:44Nilay Patel?

  Uh, I'm eager to see that one closed. Okay, we should take a break. We are just way over. It's just, it's just ridiculous show this week. Uh, we're gonna take a break. We're gonna come back with a lightning round, uh, and then we're gonna go for another, another hour or so. We'll be right back.

• 1:21:01Speaker 00

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• 1:22:02Nilay Patel?

  All right, we're back. It's time for a lightning round. Uh, I will tell you, Smeg, the obscure refrigerator company that Crans called out last week, uh, did not sponsor us this week. Uh, so now we're just gonna name some other companies as we go.

• 1:22:17Alex Cranz?

  I'm going all in on Iowa, which was like a stereo company.

• 1:22:20David Pierce?

  Oh, I like that.

• 1:22:21Alex Cranz?

  I didn't know they were around anymore.

• 1:22:23Nilay Patel?

  That's the Sony sub-brand.

• 1:22:25Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:25Nilay Patel?

  Do they get spun off?

• 1:22:27Alex Cranz?

  I don't know if they spun off, but they were, they had a big presence at CES and Liam and I both were like, they're still around? That was my first stereo. It's a big moment for us.

• 1:22:37Nilay Patel?

  Well, I've now clicked on a button labeled Iowa Legacy. Oh, they spun off from Sony. Uh, literally when you click on Iowa Legacy, it says, our company has no association with Sony Corporation.

• 1:22:50David Pierce?

  Well then.

• 1:22:51Alex Cranz?

  So, so you guys like, come on, get your name out there, hit us up.

• 1:22:55Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, lightning round sponsored by it could be you, Iowa. Very precious about, you know, disclosures and all that sort of thing. This I will sell.

• 1:23:02David Pierce?

  Except in the lightning round.

• 1:23:03Nilay Patel?

  Except in the lightning round, we will sell it to anyone. First come, first served. All right, Crans, what's your lightning round?

• 1:23:09Alex Cranz?

  So CNN is had a major restructuring this week and normally that doesn't feel like a Vergecast thing, but a lot of this restructuring was because they realized people use their phones a lot and they're not watching cable TV as much. And that's a Verge-y thing. So they are combining all the different news apparatuses or news operations. So that means their digital operation, their TV operation and their, or their streaming operation are all going to be combined into one big mega operation. And then they're going to have a spin off of like, what are the other places we can advance ourselves? And also we got to figure out the phone. That seems really important.

• 1:23:47Nilay Patel?

  We should put CNN on phones. It's pretty good.

• 1:23:51David Pierce?

  It's just bundling and unbundling, man.

• 1:23:52Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:53David Pierce?

  Give a few years and every newsroom is going to start to be like, we need specific teams for each of these. What's our vision pro strategy? Like that's where it's, we're headed back down that road before too long. I'm sure of it.

• 1:24:04Nilay Patel?

  So there is some context here. One reason that CNN is always a Verge story is that the modern CNN is owned by Warner Brothers Discovery, a company that came into existence from the merger of Warner Brothers and Discovery, surprise. Warner Brothers sold to Discovery by AT&T. A company that used to own CNN. That was cool.

• 1:24:24Alex Cranz?

  They could have had it on the phones.

• 1:24:26Nilay Patel?

  AT&T bought all of Warner Brothers in a pitch that they described as, quote, "a vision deal." And the vision was that they would preload garbage Warner Brothers apps onto mid-range Android phones in AT&T stores. This is true. I'm not making this up. Anyway, they sold it to, they sold, they got conned into making a grayscale 4-3 Justice League by Zack Snyder. They, they sold the whole kit and caboodle to, to Discovery, who installed, this guy, Chris Lick. Uh, who was supposed to revitalize CNN. I would say that was a disaster. But now they have a new guy, Mark Thompson, who used to be the CEO of the New York Times. He led the big digital transformation there. He hired another executive from the Times and they're gonna,

• 1:25:10Nilay Patel?

  that now they're gonna figure out phones.

• 1:25:12Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, it's, it's not like super encouraging that in his memo announcing this big restructuring and, and their, their need to focus on phones was, he said, I don't think anyone's yet cracked the code on how that translates, truly translates to a new, to a great news experience. That's not kind of what you want to hear from the guy who's like, we're gonna fix things with phones. But he, he seems to also recognize that he hasn't figured it out yet and he's working on it. So, I don't know. I like the honesty. I appreciate the honesty personally.

• 1:25:43Alex Cranz?

  I'm excited, like, given what he did with the New York Times app, that's, that's honestly one of my favorite apps that I use on my phone pretty much daily. I'm, I'm willing to, to see what happens. I'm, I'm curious.

• 1:25:55David Pierce?

  It's CNN is weird because CNN is, on one hand wildly successful digitally, like CNN.com, however big you think it is, it's much bigger than that. CNN.com is huge. But it doesn't feel sort of crucial in the way that some other news sources feel crucial. Like, the New York Times has done a really good job of making itself like central to the universe. And I think if I'm Mark Thompson, that's probably.

• 1:26:20Nilay Patel?

  Wait, let's not, they, they don't need to know that you feel that way. All right. They're fine. They're doing fine.

• 1:26:27David Pierce?

  People do the crossword every day. But, and I think the idea that they feel like no one has cracked mobile devices is really interesting because I also kind of feel like that's true. Everybody just built apps. And you can have good apps and push notifications are the best thing anybody has found to get people in. But like, I now get a push notification from the New York Times every time anyone on earth dies, it feels like. And the, we're just in this weird place of like, What is the push? What is the pull? What is the experience supposed to look like? Is it just a list of articles whenever I open the app? Like, I think it's cool that they're coming at this from the idea that no one has solved this. And the answer is not just like, send more push notifications so people open our app more often. I don't know what the answer is either, but I think it'll be fun to watch.

• 1:27:10Alex Cranz?

  I mean, if they improve on what AP News does, where it sends you a push notification and then you click on it. And then they're like, we don't have a story up yet. Here's our front page.

• 1:27:18David Pierce?

  Perfect.

• 1:27:19Alex Cranz?

  My favorite experience with a push notification for news. I'll be happy. Like, the bar is kind of low. I think if they put some thought into it and do something cool.

• 1:27:29David Pierce?

  Yeah, and especially CNN has gone through this weird thing where there was CNN Plus, where they were going to do a whole streaming service that died immediately when the Warner Brothers Discovery thing happened. What was it? Was it around for like, a couple of weeks?

• 1:27:41Alex Cranz?

  It was around for a week.

• 1:27:42David Pierce?

  Right? It was a week. Okay.

• 1:27:43Alex Cranz?

  It was like a week. And then it got, Zaslov was like, this is stupid and got rid of it. And then now there's CNN Max, which is on Max, the streaming channel. And it has all the things where CNN Plus was like, we think you'll really like the CNN brand. And we're not going to carry anything over from the channel.

• 1:27:59David Pierce?

  Jake Tapper had a book club on CNN Plus. Like, sure.

• 1:28:01Alex Cranz?

  Right.

• 1:28:02David Pierce?

  I don't think that was going to work, but I wish we had gotten to see a little bit more of it play out.

• 1:28:06Alex Cranz?

  CNN Max is like, we're just going to put like CNN on your TV. And I appreciate that as someone who cuts the cord.

• 1:28:13David Pierce?

  That's very good. But I think the idea of like, we're just going to stream a cable channel to your phone and that'll do it, is also not the answer. And I think every content company is going to have to come up with some version of that answer. And they're having to do it very quickly. So I think CNN coming at this from like, we are a gigantic digital presence. How do we turn that into TV money? It's going to be really interesting. And I have no idea what it looks like.

• 1:28:38Nilay Patel?

  Same. All right, David, what's your lightning round?

• 1:28:42David Pierce?

  Mine is, so Apple and Epic have been fighting for a very long time. The Supreme Court just declined to hear it. I promise we're not going to talk about this for a long time. So basically what happened is that, that, for all intents and purposes, is now over. Apple has to allow developers to link to other places that people can pay for apps. But what Did is put in rules that say, even if you do that, we're now going to collect 27% of what people buy when they click on the link and go pay you somewhere else instead of 30%. And so all the people who are mad about Apple's 30% tax are now predictably just as mad about Apple's 27% tax when you pay for something else. And it's gone into this fascinating place where it's like, Apple has always said,

• 1:29:26David Pierce?

  we don't think this is just a payment processing thing. We think you're paying us 30% for all of the other things that we provide and all the other people who make these apps.

• 1:29:35Nilay Patel?

  At this point, it's you're paying, you're paying the money for the right to have an application on their phone.

• 1:29:40David Pierce?

  Yeah, no, that's, that's basically right. And Apple would not say it quite like that, but that's basically the argument.

• 1:29:45Nilay Patel?

  It's our phone. They feel very strongly it's their phone.

• 1:29:48David Pierce?

  But all these companies from Epic to Spotify to, you know, everybody else in this coalition for appfairnessmatch.com and all these other folks, they are equally pissed. And so we're just going to have this same fight again with slightly different rules, which is now instead of paying in an app and giving Apple 30%, you pay on the web in an app and you pay 27%. And that is just, it's just going to start this whole fight all over again. And I think it's fascinating.

• 1:30:16Nilay Patel?

  Oh yeah. So Epic is going, just to walk through the procedural nightmare here. There was the trial, which we covered. Apple won almost all of the claims, except the one California state law claim that basically made their anti-steering provision illegal. The thing where you can't tell anyone else that you can go buy stuff elsewhere. Apple appealed that, Epic appealed that. They got all the way to appealing to Supreme Court, which said, no, we don't want to. We've got other things in our minds.

• 1:30:45Nilay Patel?

  The Supreme Court, ladies and gentlemen. That means the case is over and this one ruling that Apple lost, you cannot have this anti-steering provision exists. And Apple is basically doing what you would call malicious compliance. Right? They have they have found a way to comply with the letter of the law and absolutely not its spirit by doing this 27% thing. If any purchase happens on the web within seven days of someone clicking that link, you have to audit it. It's crazy. I mean, it's crazy. And so Epic is mad and they have said they're going to go back to the trial court and say, this is not what you intended to have happen. Like, this cannot be the outcome you anticipated when you wrote that ruling. And we'll see what happens.

• 1:31:23David Pierce?

  Malicious compliance is exactly the correct way to put it. It's delightful. It's so petty. It is ridiculous.

• 1:31:29Nilay Patel?

  Look, I get that there's like lots of money involved here. But Apple is like doing, they're doing some stuff that is dangerous for their reputation with app developers here with with these games. And I, there's something, there's something there that's dangerous.

• 1:31:44David Pierce?

  Well, and that's happening while like the the whole hay thing that became a fiasco, what, two summers ago, is that was a mini fiasco. Again, this time because Apple rejected Hay's calendar app. There have been rumblings that an antitrust case against Apple is coming sooner rather than later this year. Like, the the the smoke is pretty ugly when it comes to the Apple versus developers fight at this moment in time.

• 1:32:09Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, we'll see.

• 1:32:10David Pierce?

  And it's going to get that we're going to get a lot more fairly quickly, I think.

• 1:32:12Alex Cranz?

  Which is not great when you have a giant new totally like, architecture that you're trying to get people to adopt and develop for. Probably not the best time to piss off all your developers.

• 1:32:23Nilay Patel?

  And by the way, the argument for app developers has always been, yes, the phone is very valuable. We are the ones who made it valuable.

• 1:32:29David Pierce?

  Right?

• 1:32:30Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:30Nilay Patel?

  Like, there's an app for that is a real way that they market the phone. We'll see. All right, mine is, I just want to call out Alex Heath interviewed Mark Zuckerberg on the site that published literally today as we were we were setting down to tape this episode. Zuckerberg's thing is Meta is pivoting to building AGI, artificial general intelligence. He's doing that pretty obviously to make sure that Meta can compete for talent. This is like the thing that all these companies are thinking about, that all the hottest talent in the industry is going to go build AGI somewhere or the other. And Meta wants to be in the game. And I just want to call this out. He, part of their cell is, he's like, we have more Nvidia H100s than anyone. They have 340,000 Nvidia H100s.

• 1:33:13David Pierce?

  Which is nuts.

• 1:33:14Nilay Patel?

  And I just think it is incredible. We have arrived at a place where the CEO of a company like Meta is like, we have more GPUs than anyone else. You should come work here.

• 1:33:22David Pierce?

  Come play with my GPUs.

• 1:33:24Nilay Patel?

  I think that's pretty good. I just, there's a part of me that's like, that's the funniest part of this whole story is part of the pitch is like, they've got, they've got more GPUs.

• 1:33:33Alex Cranz?

  We got so many GPUs in this office, you come right over.

• 1:33:37Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, pretty good. But you should read the whole thing. There is, you know, Alex rightfully pushed back. He said, look, you just changed the name of the company to Meta. Zuckerberg's answer to this is like, it's not a huge change. It's that in the virtual world to connect with other people, maybe you'll be talking to AGIs in virtual characters. And I don't know, man, you can go read it yourself.

• 1:33:57Alex Cranz?

  Well, you need to talk to somebody in there, and there's not a lot of people.

• 1:34:00Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, here's a quote. I don't know how to more unequivocally state that we're continuing to focus on reality labs in the metaverse. They're still spending $15 billion a year on it. And Zuckerberg sees a future in which virtual worlds are generated by AI and filled with AI characters that accompany real people.

• 1:34:14Alex Cranz?

  So Ready Player One.

• 1:34:15David Pierce?

  That tracks for me. I really don't think that is a justification from Zuckerberg. I mean, it's a small one, but I don't think, I don't think the company's saying, we're in on the metaverse and then saying we're in on AI means like 180 degree pivot. You, to make the metaverse work is going to require a huge amount of really sophisticated AI. I don't know if it involves Tom Brady playing a character who will talk with me in a messaging app. But like, again, I think, a thing I've been saying a lot is like, we need more terms than just AI. We call everything AI, and actually AI is a million different things. And having a lot of GPUs you can use to do stuff is going to be pretty useful in the metaverse.

• 1:34:59Nilay Patel?

  I'm gonna start putting how many GPUs we have in our chat list. There's like five. It's so good. 1440p, you're gonna like it. I agree. I just think the idea that the top line is not still a metaverse is really interesting.

• 1:35:13David Pierce?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:35:14Nilay Patel?

  To build a great metaverse, we need to build basically AGI is a coherent story. We're AG, we're, we're doing it now is like. There's a little bit of flip-floppiness.

• 1:35:23David Pierce?

  Oh, totally. And he is definitely saying, we're an AI company that is also building the metaverse, not, we're a metaverse company that is building AI in order to get there. And that's like, that's the thing you say because the metaverse has been real bad for your stock price over the last couple of years.

• 1:35:36Nilay Patel?

  And because Apple's about to put out the Vision Pro.

• 1:35:38David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:39Nilay Patel?

  Which, it feels like the next turn. Like, it's, we're, if you thought we talked about the Vision Pro too much today, just wait until we actually get one.

• 1:35:48David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:49Nilay Patel?

  And we surround ourselves with Iowa speakers and Smeg refrigerators.

• 1:35:52David Pierce?

  Yeah, when does this thing go on sale? February 2nd?

• 1:35:54Nilay Patel?

  Uh, it's February 2nd.

• 1:35:56David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 1:35:56Nilay Patel?

  It's coming.

• 1:35:57David Pierce?

  At some point in the near future, we're going to have a lot more to say about this, and I'm sorry in advance.

• 1:36:01Nilay Patel?

  All right. Please send us an email if you think people have heard of VR headsets before. You can address them to [email protected]. We would love to know. [email protected].

• 1:36:11David Pierce?

  I will respond with Nilay's credit card number so you can buy him a Vision Pro.

• 1:36:15Nilay Patel?

  That'd be great. If someone wants to stand in line for me or whatever, that'd be amazing. That's it. We have quite a lot to talk about next week. It's, there's just a lot going on. The year is fully kicked off.

• 1:36:26David Pierce?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:36:27Nilay Patel?

  So we gotta wrap this one up, but we'll be back next week. We'll see you. That's vergehass.com.

• 1:36:34David Pierce?

  And that's it for the Vergecast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at 866VERGE11. The Vergecast is a production of The Verge and Vox Media Podcast Network. Our show is produced by Andrew Marino and Liam James. That's it. We'll see you next week.

• 1:37:15Speaker 07

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