KHC 117 - Casey Anderson

Casey Anderson, American filmmaker, wildlife naturalist, and television presenter known for translating human relationships with the natural world and wild animals. Cam and Casey cover how Casey got into wildlife photography and filmmaking, personal animal attacks, wildlife management and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Casey: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/grizzlyguy/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@endlessventure Thank you to our sponsors: MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code CAM for 15% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off Timestamps: 00:00:00 How Casey Got into Wildlife Photography 00:07:27 Animal Language - Magpies 00:11:08 Learning to Hunt from Predatory Animals 00:16:41 Wolves Hunting Instincts & Behavior 00:21:05 Behavior When the Wind Changes 00:22:16 How Predators Kill 00:27:28 Brutus - Raising a Grizzly Bear 00:29:22 Ad Break 00:31:46 Bear Personalities & Understanding Their Body Language 00:43:34 Learning Tracking & Animal Behavior in Africa 00:49:44 Timothy Treadwell 00:58:09 Animals in Filmmaking 01:04:45 A Love for Animals & Hunting 01:07:37 Casey’s Appearance on Oprah 01:10:52 Animal Protection VS Management 01:21:22 Money in Wildlife Viewing 01:24:34 Telling Stories Through YouTube 01:30:03 Treasures from the Wild 01:35:13 Montana Knife Packout Skinner Knife 01:36:53 Q - F#*k, Marry, Kill - Brown Bears, Mountain Lions, or Tigers 01:44:43 Bart Schleyer 01:48:03 Q - Does Bigfoot Exist 01:53:51 Q - Combatting Fear While Being Alone in the Wilderness? 01:58:46 Q - Getting Your Blood Sucked by a Vampire Bat 02:03:28 How Heart Surgery Changed Casey’s Life - Running Ultras 02:10:11 Getting Attacked by a Mountain Lion 02:13:49 Getting Attacked by a Pack of Wolves 02:17:56 Outro

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Cameron Hanes?

  Alright, this is the Keep Hammer Collective. Normally I do, do I have to do that every time? I don't know why I do that. That's like the clicker on the...

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 0:25Cameron Hanes?

  Keep Hammer Collective with Casey Anderson. How you doing?

• 0:28Speaker 02

  No, I'm doing good. Glad to be here.

• 0:30Cameron Hanes?

  Oh man, I'm pumped. We, I've been following you for, I don't know, I don't know how long, but a while. And your content is cool. I mean, that's, I think that the first, one of the first clips that I really noticed was when that bear walked up to you. And I don't know where you were in Alaska, I assume.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:49Cameron Hanes?

  But it was fishing and you were just kind of explaining, you know, body language and you weren't worried about it because whatever. So, that's what you do, huh?

• 0:58Speaker 02

  That's all I do, man. I mean, I don't know how to do anything else.

• 1:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah?

• 1:02Speaker 02

  I mean, all my life, yeah, that's all I know. I mean, I couldn't get a real job.

• 1:06Cameron Hanes?

  How, how did, I mean, so how did this become your job?

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Man, it's a hard, it's a tough question. I've never done anything else.

• 1:15Cameron Hanes?

  And on Instagram, just for people, it's @grizzlyguy. So just...

• 1:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, @grizzlyguy.

• 1:19Cameron Hanes?

  @grizzlyguy, yeah.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, YouTube's Endless Venture. That's our new launch right now. So it's a thing I'm, yeah, I'm trying to keep with the kids these days.

• 1:27Cameron Hanes?

  How's the, so you're putting video out on YouTube, just same type of stuff?

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, just starting. We're building some new, like, original content, little shorts, 15, 20 minute, little episodes.

• 1:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  And various things. Just tracking animals all over the world, exploring undiscovered caves, finding cool Native American religious sites and stuff like that up in the mountains. Just, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's everything that I've been doing for the last 50 years.

• 1:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so, right, I kind of interrupted you. So how did it, how did it start? Just, obviously that was what you enjoyed doing, but how did that turn into a job?

• 2:03Speaker 02

  You know, you know, growing up in Montana, you know, being with a dad who was a mountain man of sorts, hunter, tracker, that's all I knew how to do. That morphed into me going to college, trying to study wildlife biology. I wanted to do something with animals. Um, that college wasn't really a great thing for me. Um, then I was like, one day it actually really happened. I went to Montana State and Montana State's very close to Yellowstone. So I'm down in Yellowstone and I meet this guy from LA who's carrying this big camera. He doesn't know where to go look for grizzly bears or wolves or how to, you know, find herds of elk. And he sees me and he's like, hey, you know, if you carry this big backpack and can find me some grizzly bears, I'll give you some money.

• 2:45Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, yeah. So that just morphed into doing things like that. So I was like behind camera for a long time, just guiding, tracking stuff. Finding stuff for guys who didn't know how to find it.

• 2:56Cameron Hanes?

  Did you market yourself to do that or did it just word of mouth?

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Word of, yeah, it was word of mouth.

• 3:01Cameron Hanes?

  So photographers would hear about you and want to go to Yellowstone. It's a, it reminds me of that, that grizzly and the wolf. You know, that shot that everybody had a couple of years ago. That was in Yellowstone, right?

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Totally, yeah.

• 3:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. So it's, um, I know a lot of people had shots of that, but probably the local people knew exactly where to go. Maybe got contacted, hey, have you seen this? And so that's kind of how it worked, just word of mouth.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Definitely. Yeah. And so, and I think that just that morphed into one thing to the next, the next. That same guy, he was from LA. He had this big series on TV. He needed to make wildlife content. And I remember one day he called me, I was probably twenty, something like that. And he's like, are you really thinking about going back to college? And I'm thinking about it. He's like, hey, I got something for you. We're gonna do twenty six episodes. And the, and your job would be, we're just gonna travel the world and you're just gonna try to find the craziest wildlife stuff for me to film. Is, what do you think of that? And I'm like.

• 3:56Cameron Hanes?

  No, I wanna.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So that's, that's all I've been doing. And then that morphed into, you know, one day being, being in front of the camera. And you know, it is. And then also, you know, you, you know, you never think that you're gonna be doing this stuff, you know? And then I got a series on National Geographic and did a bunch of shows for Discovery and BBC. And then it just, it turned into a thing. And then I looked back and I'm like, okay, I'm turning into an old man. I can't do anything else. I couldn't get a real job. I don't have any other skills.

• 4:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  So now, you know, that's where I'm at. I'm just, you know, continuing the adventure, trying to share the wisdom and the experiences that I've got over the last thirty years of doing this professionally.

• 4:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a, I mean, it's quite a lifestyle. I liked it. I guess, let me think, what I like about it most is it's, it's like hunting, you know, we talked about this a little bit before we started, but whether you're killing something or not, you're hunting.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:50Cameron Hanes?

  You know, you're out there and I like that. For the most part, yeah, you can hire somebody, a local to take you to this place if you're not from the area, but for the most part, it's your success relies on how, how often you're out there.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 5:05Cameron Hanes?

  The more you're out there, the more you're going to see, the more you're going to capture, the more experiences, the more decisions you, you get better at making. And so it's just, it's reps, it's decades, right?

• 5:16Speaker 02

  It is every day. I mean, I'm not a weekend warrior, you know, every single day. I'm outside doing something like that and I have been and I've had to, you know, again, I'm a hunter, I'm a trapper. And, but sometimes I'm not killing them.

• 5:30Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  I, I have to, you know, it is, this feeds my family, you know, being able to go and close the distance and capture behavior of a rare animal feeds my family. Sometimes, you know, it's just a check in the mail. Sometimes it's literal. Like I was thinking about something I'd love to share with you. It was like, I was tracking this mountain lion for eight years, which was crazy. I, I see, I would see her every day for three months.

• 5:55Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  So I like got to know this cat so good. And so one winter she killed, I'd say about 25 mule deer kills that I found. And it was a heyday for me because I was getting this, this behavior on camera that was amazing, right? And it's such a rare thing to get a mountain lion, just so elusive. And so it was a heyday for me because I, that footage was worth so much. But every time I went to a kill, I'd sit there and I'd watch the coyotes and the magpies pick those backstraps. So eventually I started taking those backstraps out, those kills. And I, and I bring them home and I'm like, hey, honey, I got, you know, I brought home the bacon, basically. We fried those things up. And it just cracked me up because again, I was a scavenger in the moment, but at the same time.

• 6:37Cameron Hanes?

  Those other animals.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Just like the other animals, but I was, I was taking something from my knowledge, you know, and being able to track her down.

• 6:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  And, uh, yeah, I, I just always think that's hilarious because some people are just like, you know, they gotta eat organic, grass fed, free range. Well, how about organic, grass fed, free range mountain lion killed?

• 6:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  I mean, that's, yeah.

• 6:56Cameron Hanes?

  That's, that's amazing. And also like, there's a saying, I've used it before that the mountains provide, so.

• 7:04Cameron Hanes?

  That's another way the mountains providing you just knowing that lion and knowing, hey, gonna be able to get some meat off this thing if I follow her around and uh.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 7:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and that that'll help sustain you. But uh, yeah, I did see another post you had on Instagram, a cool one. Um, cause I think that like to be, to be good at what you do, or to be good at what I do, man, you have to be so in tune with what's going on out there. But you had a, a kind of an observation about magpies. And just tell me about what that said, or what, what magpie, what you learned from magpies out there?

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Magpies are, they're my best intern.

• 7:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  I mean, I've learned so much by listening to them. And magpies are just part of the equation.

• 7:47Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  And if you are out there all the time and listening, the animals are telling you stuff. They're telling each other stuff all the time. We have, there was a point in human evolution, or whatever you believe in, that we were really in tune with it because we had to be to survive.

• 8:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  We'd listen and you could hear it. And those who spend a lot of time out there, that language, you know, it's like if you and I went to China right now, we would walk around, we wouldn't be able to communicate at all. But if you get, you're there and immersed in it and listening long enough, you start to learn the language. And there's no different when you're in the wild. And magpies and other animals, but magpies are great in the, in the Northwest, because they are always watching and they're always saying things. They're saying very specific things.

• 8:26Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm, I didn't know that.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Oh, all the time. Like I, if I hear a magpie, I'll like, I know if it's looking at a cat. I know if it's looking at an owl.

• 8:33Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  And it's just, it's a cadence and the thing. And it's, and it's, it's what's so cool now is that, you know, with AI and stuff like that, they can prove it. You know, cause there's these little discrepancies in the sounds that they're making.

• 8:44Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, breaks it down.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  But they're literally saying, there's a wolf, there's a wolf, there's a wolf. And if you learn that language, man, it's a, it's like a cheat code.

• 8:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  You know?

• 8:54Cameron Hanes?

  I bet.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  And so magpies, especially when I'm looking for mountain lions or things like that and bears. And you know, I might be following tracks and tracks run out. And I'm standing there, I had to say, if you sit down long enough and listen, there's an animal that's telling you where it's at. And it's, it's, it's, it's a cheat code.

• 9:09Cameron Hanes?

  Are they, uh, are they normally like on a kill and making those calls about the lion or the wolves that they see? Or is it just random, do you think? Cause you're, you're generally, you're tracking them, hoping they kill something, right? So you can get photos and video.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 9:25Cameron Hanes?

  And is that generally when you hear the magpies is on, when they're on a kill?

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Sometimes on a kill. So kill, the kill sounds very different. If they're looking at a cat, it's a very different call than if they're on a kill eating.

• 9:35Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I see.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  But they're, but I know them both pretty well.

• 9:38Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  And, uh, yeah. And so again, it's just, it's, there's a story being told all the time. And if you can start to tune into it, it, it makes you magic, man. It really does. But it's one of those things, you talk to the Native Americans or some of these old trappers who just really depended on that. They knew all this stuff and they knew it so, so much more deep than that.

• 9:57Cameron Hanes?

  Oh yeah, that's a, you know, where I hunt down there on the San Carlos. I remember, uh, one of the Native Americans down there told me that, I don't know. I mean, you, you kind of make assumptions and you make, I don't know, these things just work out. Then all of a sudden it's a, you're verifying thoughts that you might've had. But he was hunting this bull and he said something about that. He was thinking he's thirsty, so he should go to water because he's thinking if he's thirsty, the bull's probably thirsty. So they both went to water at the same time. But just, point is, is just being that in tune with that animal, the conditions, how he was feeling.

• 10:38Cameron Hanes?

  And also not, just not making it individuals, like just thinking, well, I wonder how this is affecting the animal I'm, I'm after, you know? And it was right, he was right. But that's just that level of you say, being in tune and listening and just being aware.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  It's just time, like you said, it's reps, right? And now you just see you're out there and I think we're all, we all have the ability to do it. It's a matter if we're willing to listen to it. For a matter of when we're out in wild, we put our phones down for a bit and just sit there and listen and watch. When I was a kid, my dad would take us out hunting and we would sit on a ridge sometimes and watch other hunters move up the hill. And there's like this idea of like these like almost circles around them. Like as they move, you know, they influence this.

• 11:23Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  And this influences.

• 11:24Cameron Hanes?

  Bump and everything.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  And you watch people and those who are good, their bubbles really small. Right. And it's because they know how to move across the landscape. They're paying attention to things. Sometimes they don't even know that they are. It's just instinctual.

• 11:36Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  And the more reps you're out there in the wild, those instincts become part of your behavior and you're successful. And so you just watch these things. So I think a lot of time as a hunter, what I love about watching the best hunters on the planet, mountain lions, wolves, things like that. Is learning how to be a hunter from them. You know, if you watch like a mountain lion move on a mule deer and you can actually use some of those same strategies. You're gonna be good. Man, I mean, it's just like, and you know this, I'm talking, I'm preaching to the choir here, but you know, this is getting the state of the mind of that mountain lion. It's like, you know, they lock in on something and there's no lateral movement, right?

• 12:13Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  This is what an elk's gonna see, right? Everything comes, becomes very focused. They find the shadows. They stay in them, you know, and they slip and they move and they're watching that elk and they just make that. And then there's those moments where they make these crazy moves in there, right? And it's, and you're like, I would never do that.

• 12:29Cameron Hanes?

  Like to the animal or?

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Towards the animal. They close that gap and like, I don't know, there's this thing.

• 12:34Cameron Hanes?

  But it's not, it's not to kill it. It's before that?

• 12:36Speaker 02

  It's before, yeah. So they're just taking advantage of a subtle moment and they make these aggressive move towards them. There's, you know, and they slip in real quick.

• 12:44Cameron Hanes?

  If the bull's eye was blocked by a rock or something.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Right. Maybe it just dips its head down and it just bent really quick, you know?

• 12:50Cameron Hanes?

  I haven't, I see, I haven't, I haven't seen a lion hunt before.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they do make these cra- like I remember this one time I watched this cat. She was stalking up on two cow elk and they both put their head down. And there was this big bunch of crunchy snow that was in front of her. It was probably 20 feet and she had to get across it somehow. And she watched those heads go down and she just, as soon as they went down, she made this huge jump towards them. I mean.

• 13:12Cameron Hanes?

  Over it.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Over the top and then landed and just froze. But she

• 13:16Cameron Hanes?

  That's awesome.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  She knew that this was gonna make noise.

• 13:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  She'd been there, done that, and been busted thousand times.

• 13:20Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  And she knew that she was gonna wait for that right moment. As soon as those heads went down, she just leapt right over top of it. And it hit the ground like a ninja and just froze and just waited again.

• 13:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, waited for another opportunity.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  And you know, the other thing I learned is, you know, with hunting, and again, I've killed a lot of elk with my bows, but not like, not like you or a lot of, I'm not, I mean, I'm mid of, mid of the pack kinda guy.

• 13:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, well, Montana, you got some good hunting there for sure.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's good. But man, if, like I said, one of the, one of the strategies is this, like, you know, when you're in close to those elk. I've, when, when those cats get in there, they don't waste time, because the longer you sit there, the more chance that the wind's gonna change, the more chances of a cow elk's gonna walk over here and spot ya. So when they get in there, there's this thing, when they've closed the gap, they just, they're aggressive.

• 14:05Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  And I've used that tactic in hunting, and it's something I've learned literally by watching mountain lions, and it makes my success rate go up.

• 14:12Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. I used to, uh, I haven't done it lately, but back in the day when I first started, because I was hunting very high pressured elk, but I would like run in the middle of the herd. And it wasn't when I was after like giant bulls, but I'm after like any bull, right? So it, I would run, I was like envisioning what you were just explaining, into the middle of the herd, and you could get a shot before they figured out how to react, what to do, which way to go, and you're just standing in the middle of them, and they're just staring, but if, you know, you can take advantage of that.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  And that confusion.

• 14:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Right?

• 14:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  They're, they're in that moment, they're all confused. You don't, you don't give them a time to think about it, and by the time that they're thinking about it, there's an arrow already in the air.

• 14:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, uh, you know, I think one of the, one of the things you mentioned too about how, and we both have, about how always learning or being out there observing. I think until you get all those reps, and you know how it is, you take somebody new hunting, they're just focused on the one step in front of their feet. And they're trying not to kick rocks, step on sticks, not have, you know, make this noise, and they're not, their head's not up. They're not looking around, they're not observing anything other than the one or two feet in front of them. And then what I've noticed too, because I've taken so many people, is like, I, my- I mean, I don't know. It's you said, maybe it's not even conscious. Maybe it's subconscious.

• 15:33Cameron Hanes?

  But I barely glance down. Most of the time my head's up and I'm always and I don't have to look down nor my feet are. It's either peripheral or whatever, but just little stuff like that, that just comes with time, you know, just reps and just noticing things. And you said like the lion stays in the shadow, always stay in the shadow. You say that lateral movement. I know I'm always like trying to keep my arms in close, walking with my bow like this. My arms aren't like this. Even my legs definitely aren't like this. They're in that line. So when you said that I was, I was thinking and I, I do think about that. Like I want my profile to be as unmoved, just as static as possible.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Focused, right? You just, you almost feel your body is kind of just sinking like that.

• 16:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Because you know, the biggest thing people could do is of course the back of their hands and like point at something like that. If you that far away from your body and animal, I don't even know how they could be a long way away and see that movement.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:35Cameron Hanes?

  So it's just, that's, that's a extreme example, but just staying tight, you know, as you mentioned, what, what have you learned from wolves?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, the way they use the landscape, you know, one thing about wolves, a lot of the pack animals is you'll see a pack of wolves moving on a group of elk, right? And you think, okay, point A to point B, they're going to work this like this. And all of a sudden they stop and they'll back up and they'll start going back this way. And you're thinking, where the hell are they going? Right? Well, they know the landscape in a grand form. Yeah. Right. They know how the winds move. They know if they go straight at it, the wolves are gonna, or those elk are gonna see them. The wind's gonna switch to their back and they're gonna be gone. They're gonna be busted and they're gonna be gone. But they know if they run this ridge up, the backside of it and they come over this way and then they all line out here, those elk are gonna feed right into them. So their knowledge of the landscape is, you know, it's something like they just,

• 17:28Speaker 02

  they stop down, they all just think about it and then they all start to move. They all know it, right? And they just go and they get in that position and they have to. I mean, that's how they eat, right? And if they make mistakes, it's crazy. But I think with animals and I've seen with bears and mountain lions and wolves and all kinds of them.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  We think of them being just a super instinctual creature, you know, I gotta eat, eat now.

• 17:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  You know, and they're, they're thinking, they're thinking all the time. And when they go out there, they're, they've learned, they know these areas, they've got a map in their head, they know that they can go back a mile this way and go catch this little gully up like that, pop over the bridge over here and they're gonna nail it. They know that map and that there's a complexity about animals. If you sit there and watch them over and over and over again, it's kind of mind blowing.

• 18:14Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Cause I, you know, there's some aspect, I think as humans, we don't want these animals to be thinkers, you know what I mean?

• 18:20Cameron Hanes?

  Right. That gives, we have that advantage, we think.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. And so when you see them have these kind of complex strategies and stuff like that, that's a, it's, it just, it makes me want to know more. I mean,

• 18:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  the longer I'm out there, the more I'm witnessing animals doing stuff, the more I realize the less I know.

• 18:36Cameron Hanes?

  Right, right.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying?

• 18:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  And there's so much to learn and to see these animals, the wisdom that they have.

• 18:43Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  You know, a bear in the landscape can live to be 30 years, right?

• 18:46Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  And they're out there every day.

• 18:48Cameron Hanes?

  Lot of life experience.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  And to think about that, the wild wisdom that they have.

• 18:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  So if you can sit there and just watch them for a little bit and try to just gather a piece of that, man, that's, that's huge.

• 18:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, we talk about, well, if you hunt all of September, man, you hunted a lot. Imagine these animals all day, every day, every minute for decades, for 30 if you're a bear. And yeah, so we think we're good at hunting by hunting a month straight.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:17Cameron Hanes?

  I, I don't know, it kind of reminds me of, uh, I'm a big UFC fan. So if you talk about like, they have fighters go train with Khabib over in Dagestan and they're like, oh, I'm gonna be, you know, it's been five weeks over there. I'm on a whole nother level. I'm like, well, he's been doing this for 20 years.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:34Cameron Hanes?

  You're not even close to making that gap up.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  And then all the wisdom his dad had, they handed on.

• 19:39Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  And there's this community of like wisdom from generation to generation, which animals have the same, which is insane.

• 19:44Cameron Hanes?

  You know, that example you, you shared with the wolf, the wolves, it reminds me, cause you said, they might know this gully, they go back a mile and a half. That's a big advantage. Hunters wouldn't really do that. Hardly any hunters would go back a mile and a half, even though if a wolf was doing it, it must be the best way to, to take advantage of whatever that herd of elk was doing. But because they're, In such good shape, or it can cover so much country. I mean, they're not working out to get in shape, obviously, but they're, they can cover country so easily. A mile and a half is nothing. They'd probably do that and I don't know how long and then they're in position for that herd of elk. But that's, yeah.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  That's a lazy two legger. You watch them do that. Sometimes you think they're leaving. And no, but and then you watch them and then they, and then you realize when you see it all come together, like that was all strategy, all thought out. They know how to move in the landscape, like you said, and they're fit and they're fit because they're out there all the time.

• 20:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  They can, I mean, you, I don't know, you get me into all kinds of things about my opinion, but if you're a hunter, man, you should be fit. That's just the bottom line.

• 20:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  You don't, you don't see any big fat lazy wolves and grizzly bears out there. They're all ripped.

• 20:54Cameron Hanes?

  We're, we're, we're pretty lucky that, uh, it's not survival to fitness these days.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:00Cameron Hanes?

  Because we wouldn't have many people surviving. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, I don't know. I think that's interesting, too. I wonder, so have you seen wolves? Um, you know how when you're hunting, the thermal switch mid morning and start going up, you can come in from the top then to get in bow range. Do wolves or animals know that the wind's going to change like that and take advantage of that?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  For sure. And in fact, I've watched actually African lions do this and wolves do this. So pack animals. So they know that the thermal is going to switch. So you'll see them split, right? So three quarters of the pack will go and get in a spot where the

• 21:43Cameron Hanes?

  Downwind.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Downwind. And then they'll send one upwind and purposely. So when the wind switches, they all kind of get in a spot. And then when the wind switches, they send that one out. Now that whiff of that one wolf just comes and drills the herd. Herd just starts, ears all go up. They all start pointing. They're looking that way. And then they slip in behind. And as they pack, they start panicking and start moving, they just move right into their pack. And it's, again, it's one of those things you sit there and watch. You're just like, what? They just did that on purpose, right? And it's like, could we do that? You know what I mean? And it's, yeah, and you can.

• 22:16Cameron Hanes?

  It's, uh, what, what's crazy to think about animals. So we can take these tactics or learn from them. How, they have to get their mouths on these animals.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're killing with their mouth.

• 22:25Cameron Hanes?

  Their mouth. And it's like, we can barely get in bow range, or you know, if you're good, it, it happens, but.

• 22:33Cameron Hanes?

  Our mouths aren't on these animals killing them.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 22:35Cameron Hanes?

  At such another level.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, every, every single day that they eat, they kill with their mouth. A mountain lion is one of my favorites because it's in itself.

• 22:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  Taking on elk, animals that are so much bigger than they are sometimes. And this was one female I, I, that one I was telling you about that I followed year after year. I mean, I learned so much from her.

• 22:57Cameron Hanes?

  I bet.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Um, she, so there's mountain lions kill one of three ways in general. They usually pinch the trachea.

• 23:04Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  They bite on right here and they just hang on until it chokes out. Or a big male is often they'll bite in the back and break the vertebrae. But the way she killed is a kind of a more, probably the more unique way is that she would put her mouth on their mouth.

• 23:18Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  And she would just hang on with her claws on their shoulder and kind of come up underneath and just put her mouth and suffocate them with her mouth. And I wouldn't think I loved about every time.

• 23:26Cameron Hanes?

  It's kind of unethical, isn't it?

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. But what was so cool is that animal's last breath.

• 23:33Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Was her breath.

• 23:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Right? And she, and they're looking right in the animal's eyes and watching them.

• 23:39Cameron Hanes?

  Could you imagine? Not the best way to go.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  No, no, not the best way to go. But every time.

• 23:44Cameron Hanes?

  How long does it take? How long would that take?

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Depended, but I mean, I'd say about 10 minutes.

• 23:51Cameron Hanes?

  It's a long 10 minutes.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're hanging on for a long time and that, I mean, animal's doing everything it can to.

• 23:55Cameron Hanes?

  I bet.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Get away and it's a rodeo every, but imagine every time you wanted to eat something, you had to go put your, kill something with your mouth.

• 24:03Cameron Hanes?

  I was thinking about that too. Most people, you know how meal prep is a thing like me, oh, I got a meal prep because I want to lose weight. They can't even do that.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:13Cameron Hanes?

  Then they go to McDonald's or wherever there's like, well, you couldn't cook a couple of chicken breasts because that's a hassle. Meanwhile, these animals are out killing with their mouths every single time they want to eat.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:24Cameron Hanes?

  There's no, yeah, there's no other options really.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  No, and they get hurt, you know, that's the other thing. It's like, it's tough and then they get beat up.

• 24:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I bet.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  I mean, so many times I've watched animals limp away from the thing that they just killed and then they go lick their wounds and then they sit there and they try to recover and they go back and eat. And sometimes they don't come back.

• 24:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a. I have, I do respect, I've seen animals, um, I don't, I don't know why this made me think of it, but I like how animals just kind of get to work on whether it's, whether they get hurt, or I've even seen dogs get all muddy. They don't, like if somebody gets muddy, they're looking down at themselves. They're like, oh my God, I'm such a mess, this and that, what do I gotta do? A dog will just come in from being muddy, lay down and just start licking, just start, hey, let's get this cleaned up. There's no, I don't know, it's just so different, but even like getting hurt, trying to kill something, you say they go lick their wounds, would they literally lick their wounds? They gotta clean this out, I gotta see what's wrong, figure out how I'm still gonna kill.

• 25:23Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I don't know how, what they're thinking in their head, but that's what I'm imagining. And they just like, way it goes.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, you gotta get back, cause you can't stop doing it.

• 25:33Cameron Hanes?

  No, gotta get this cleaned up.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  And some that don't live, you know, some die from it. I've, I've seen a mountain lion, uh, got beat up enough that she, she probably broke some ribs, had some internal injuries and she ended up dying from it.

• 25:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that was just all from tackling an elk and getting smashed on the rocks.

• 25:48Cameron Hanes?

  Brutal. Well, hey, wanna try one of these?

• 25:51Speaker 02

  I do, yeah. I've been curious about this for a while.

• 25:53Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. What did I say? It was like a, it's kind of like a cookie dough blizzard.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Alright, that sounds pretty good.

• 26:05Cameron Hanes?

  Let's see what you think.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Cookie dough blizzard.

• 26:13Cameron Hanes?

  It's an acquired taste.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  It's actually not terrible.

• 26:16Cameron Hanes?

  It's, when I first, I thought it was terrible, terrible, but now I'm used to it. Now I kinda like it.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I found that things that are usually pretty good for you don't usually taste that great.

• 26:24Cameron Hanes?

  No, that's why I don't eat vegetables.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so that's, but I do think this.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  That's pretty good.

• 26:33Cameron Hanes?

  It actually works. I mean, I've, I don't know, I'm, I'm kind of addicted to them now. Before I go running or refer to a podcast, I do it all the time. Supposed to help with cognitive and what Tour de France guys use it, so it must work, right?

• 26:46Speaker 02

  It must, yeah, and we'll see how it works. So let's see, we've got some time here. Let's see if I kick in and get more smarter now.

• 26:53Cameron Hanes?

  Um, yeah, I think another thing when I was like researching you is what I tell my wife I'm doing when I'm on my phone all the time. I'm doing research.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  I mean, you are. Dude, I have the same conversation with my wife. It's, we have a weird job.

• 27:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Right? And, and sometimes, I mean, you get to be on your phone for hours looking at stuff like that.

• 27:13Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  And that's part of the job.

• 27:15Cameron Hanes?

  And sometimes you get ideas from, it might seem like you're wasting time, but like I know real ideas I always get from watching other reels, but.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 27:23Cameron Hanes?

  Whatever. It's probably not the most productive, but it works.

• 27:29Cameron Hanes?

  Oh yeah. So Brutus, tell me, tell me about that.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:34Cameron Hanes?

  That was a big part of your life.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Huge part of my life. Yeah. So, you know, going back and forth filmmaking, a lot of times I would go work at a wildlife park or something. And I was working at a wildlife park and they had a grizzly bear. And they had two grizzly bears and they ended up having cubs. And it was this place that they basically, the cubs were a bit of an attraction. And then once the cubs kind of got big enough, they didn't necessarily want them around because they were like, people love to look at little cubs. People look at, look at, like big bears. Yeah. But they don't want to look at this like awkward little teenage bear. So they were going to get rid of this bear and I was aware of it. And I was 20, 25 years old. And I thought to myself, I need a grizzly bear.

• 28:17Cameron Hanes?

  That is awesome.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, I just got permits and stuff and arranged to, to get him. And

• 28:27Speaker 02

  I raised a bear. I mean, when I first got him, he was about that big.

• 28:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So cute.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  And it's one of those things, you know, as a Montana kid, you go out and you see grizzly bears. You hear about grizzly bears all the time. It's usually not good.

• 28:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  There's, but there's always the intrigue, the romanticism of like raising a grizzly bear, Grizzly Adams, you hear about all that stuff.

• 28:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I used to watch that show.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so it's like, you know, I had this opportunity and I made it happen. And I think it, you know, when you're 25, you think you're smart.

• 28:55Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  And it was a crazy ass idea. I mean, crazy. Cause like, I always like to say, there's not a manual, like how to raise a grizzly bear, right? You just, you know, and it's not like a lot of dudes run around that know how to do it. So you just learn. And yeah, so I raised him and. He grew up to be, you know, he lived to be a twenty years old and you know, he was eight hundred pounds. When he was full grown, so you know, eight, nine feet tall. But you know, it taught me a lot, you know, bears are interesting. You know, bears, they're just, they're an interesting animal. And I think when you, you start thinking about bears particularly, they're dynamic. You know, I like to, I make this comparison and I've done this before, but to dogs, right?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  We all have had dogs. We all have had buddies that have dogs. We've met these individual personality dogs, right? There's the big fat lazy dog. There's the dog. You pull the frisbee out and it's going to go hyper and chest frisbee all day long. There's a mean dog. There's a good dog. There's all these dogs. They all have these different personalities. We know that with dogs. But when we think about bears, we don't think about that. We think that bears are bears are bear.

• 30:01Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  You know, it's, it's, you know, eat, eat, sleep shit, you know, hibernate, do it all over again.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  But bears are, they're, they're so dynamic. They have, you know, they're, they live long on the earth. They have their, all these experiences. There's kind of the recipe of who they are, just like us, right?

• 30:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  And they're born a certain, with a certain personality type too. And this, and Brutus was just the most laid back, chill, forgiving, patient bear. Like he just, you know, and I think that, you know, raising a bear, you know, obviously that's the kind of bear you want when you're raising a bear.

• 30:34Cameron Hanes?

  For sure.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  And I, and I started learning that. And there's other bears that I have around and, and, and would see. But then even being around him, I'd go out in the wild doing my job. And there's things that I learned from him, you know, we are that close every day to a bear. Talk about body language.

• 30:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Like you start to learn such little subtle things. And when you go out in the wild and you start watching bears, you're like, oh, he's gonna, he's gonna get up. Or he's gonna scratch his back or he's gonna go to that tree right there. I already know that. And everybody look at me like, how do you know that? I'm like, yeah, because I live with a bear. I have a bear. And when I, when I'm out here filming bears, I go home to a bear. And then when I'm done with that, I go back out into the wild, bear. So you spend enough time, you just start getting these little intricacies. But with that, you know, it's like, you know, bears are interesting because like people and like dogs, like the thing I just laid out there, those personality types. There's bad ones too, you know, and, and you've got to know that. And what I love about that is when you're out in the wild. And you're around bears and other animals to know that there's kind of an array of personalities.

• 31:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  To me makes it more interesting.

• 31:37Cameron Hanes?

  Definitely.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  You know, cause when you encounter a bear, that situation's going to be very different every single time. Just as if you go out in Eugene right now, and there's different parts of town that you go out walk around at midnight, and there's a different type of people that might be out during that type, that time. It's the same with bears.

• 31:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  You might walk into a bear who's had a really rough go.

• 31:55Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Who's maybe dealt with people in a different way before and it's going to turn and take it out on you.

• 32:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  But you have to be able to recognize that it's life or death, you know? And what I gained from Brutus, I mean, I think was that was the main thing. You know, when you hear about a bear and most people listening, you, I mean, everybody, most of the time it's because they've done something wrong.

• 32:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  And it's made a headline, bear, you know, bear malls bow hunter.

• 32:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  And it's, but are bears out there mall and bow hunters all the time?

• 32:25Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  No, but usually if you dig into it, it's a pretty, pretty bad luck. You know, a guy stumbled on a bear and got too close and there was a carcass around the corner at a cow or something. Or he doesn't know how to make a cow call right and he called it in.

• 32:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, but most of the time bears are pretty chill.

• 32:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  But there are times, I mean, I've ran, I mean, I've probably have had.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  Man, not hundreds of thousands, but probably 10,000 bear encounters in my life.

• 32:51Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  And I've been charged probably five times.

• 32:55Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  I've charged bears more than I've been charged.

• 32:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Is it like, uh, what, I don't know, I was going to get your perspective on this, but to me, when that's happened, it's been like juvenile. It seems like males, like maybe that have maybe got their ass kicked, maybe life's not going that great. Just like you're a regular teenage boy. It's a time. Are those the most aggressive ones that you've seen?

• 33:25Speaker 02

  They're the most unpredictable.

• 33:26Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah, maybe that's a better way.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're, they're the ones, like when I said I've charged more bears and I've been charged.

• 33:32Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Just like a teenage boy is a great, it's a great analogy because when you encounter them, they are insecure. They've been picked on and they want, and bears are, they play this game of space in nature. If you see them together, they're always trying to take each other's space.

• 33:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Space is everything.

• 33:48Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  So if they've had their space.

• 33:50Cameron Hanes?

  That's their currency, really, isn't it?

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it totally is, yeah. So when they encounter another animal and they've been being picked on, they look at you and go, I'm gonna take this dude's space. And they come over and they try to, they start to crowd you, they start giving you this. And if you give it to them, even this much, they see that, like that, and they're gonna take another bit.

• 34:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  And they're gonna take a little bit more. And then it gets can be bad.

• 34:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  So those teenage males that you're talking about, they're the ones that have scared me the most. With the exception of one big male that I could tell you that story, but in those situations, what you do is everything. If you give in, like, I'm not kidding you, like, it goes like this at you and you just do this. One little tiny bit, it sees, it sees that like.

• 34:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  A billboard.

• 34:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  And it's gonna go for it.

• 34:38Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  So it's a matter of understanding that, having the confidence enough to know that game. And when that bear gives you this, and that you either gave it a step back, straight back to it.

• 34:51Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Or just hold your ground so hard and believe, it's a game of mental chicken.

• 34:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  You gotta believe that your 200-pound ass is gonna take that thing on in your head. Because if you don't, that weakness is gonna shine like a billboard on you. And it's just this game, it sounds so crazy when I talk about this, but these are the things I learned from Brutus.

• 35:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I bet.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  And it's just, again, the repetition and being around these bears and watching them and feeling it. And again, you know, I get out there, I've had tens of thousands of encounters and I know every single time that I go out there, that could be my last. That's the reality of being in nature, a bear could kill me tomorrow, people wish for it on the internet all the time.

• 35:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  You know?

• 35:27Cameron Hanes?

  People are nuts.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  And it's, and I know that, and I think it's part of it is that you got to put, you know, you put that in your head, but then you say to yourself, how can I prepare myself to be the best wild version of myself? How can I go out there and?

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Live and survive and you know, and it's preparing yourself a knowledge, man. You shouldn't be out there playing these games if you don't know.

• 35:52Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah, that's a good point. Um, yeah, when you were explaining that, um, that just like these micro movements, it, it made me think, cause you know, I hunt with the rivets up there in Albert all the time. And it's just black bear, but um, they're still whatever. They're still risk with black bear. But I, I sit on the ground all the time. So you're even smaller, right? So you get this, this bear that's probably weighs, I don't know, maybe two 50. And I'm sitting on the ground, I look small. He's like, oh, he's got the advantage, right? Well, the one time I was thinking about is I was sitting there and I had a knife in the tree sticking above me, but I was kinda,

• 36:34Cameron Hanes?

  kinda like, I can't remember how I was, but to, he started to come into, to stand up. I had to like lean back to push against the tree to get leverage to use my legs. Cause I had my bow there. All I did on my knees, tree right here, bear right here, like maybe just four yards away. But I just leaned back just to, just to feel where the tree was. So I could push up, but lean back maybe not even six inches. That was it. Here he comes. And John was like, no, you know, he yells at him. It's like, as you said, you gotta, as it's, you gotta take a step forward or match their aggressiveness, something.

• 37:13Cameron Hanes?

  But it was that exact scenario where it was inches, but when it's an animal who can't say, hey, I don't want any problems or I'm going to kick your ass. They're all body language.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 37:25Cameron Hanes?

  All body language. So they're just re, everything you do is speaking to them essentially. But your, your explanation of that just reminded me of that perfectly.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  No, you were in the mix. I mean, I'm sure there was food involved too.

• 37:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  It's all, it's very.

• 37:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, there's a lot, a lot of di- dynamic factors to consider and other bear.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, for sure.

• 37:46Cameron Hanes?

  And I don't know what happened, you know, normally the younger bear would come in. And then when the big boar comes in, it's like, and I was, I had this on a video too. I was going to ask you about this, but I've had bear, um, Where I couldn't, they couldn't smell the wind was coming to me. They couldn't see because it's thick, but they knew that the big bear was coming. And I thought in my head, they're so in tune with, with picking up like, you know, steps that they could, they knew it was a heavier bear, could just tell. Yeah. What do you think about that?

• 38:21Speaker 02

  I, I think that we're full circle back to what we were talking about with birds.

• 38:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  I think that the forest told them. And I'll tell you what's, what's amazing about the big bear like that.

• 38:32Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  It's not that something went meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, in the tree and said there's a big bear. Often it's no sound at all. And I'll tell you when you're in nature.

• 38:41Cameron Hanes?

  Just dead quiet.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  And it's, and there's no sound.

• 38:43Cameron Hanes?

  That's.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  That's scarier than anything. Cause that means if everybody's shutting up.

• 38:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  That means there's a big dude around.

• 38:49Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, I see.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  And that's, I'll guarantee you that's what it was.

• 38:53Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  The forest, you know, has its normal kind of din, right?

• 38:56Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  There's just always, you know, a squirrel over here, a bird chirping over here. There's always this din. But when everything goes quiet, it's usually because they're all focused on something that's gonna, that's, that scares them.

• 39:05Cameron Hanes?

  I see, yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  And so I bet, I bet, that's my guess.

• 39:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Is that if, you know, if there was no wind, there was no sight involved, those bears heard something else change. And they heard this silence across the forest that realizes like the big dude's here, get ready, everybody.

• 39:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause I always, that, that makes sense. I was, I think why I put that together was I saw a smaller bear. It seemed like trying to walk harder. And I don't, we, I don't, I don't want to give these bears too much credit, but also on another time, I'm like, maybe I'm not giving them enough credit, right? But I saw this younger bear kind of, and I was like, is he trying to sound heavier?

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Well, that be, you know, that behavior is a posturing of.

• 39:44Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thing. So maybe, I mean, that's interesting. Never thought of that. Here, I mean, it's one of those things, like I tell you from the top, I'm learning all the time.

• 39:52Cameron Hanes?

  Well.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  And why do they do that? Something.

• 39:54Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Maybe that's why.

• 39:55Cameron Hanes?

  That's, that's the beauty of animals, I guess. And like, and also having that mindset of learning. You know, you, you just said, you've been out there as much or more than, I don't know, 99.9% of the people on this earth, and you're still learning. So it's like, that's when we stop learning is when we think we know it all. We're not picking anything up. But when you always have that.

• 40:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, what can I learn today or just observing? Man.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  It's changing all the time too. That's the thing. I mean, as the world's changing and we live, we know that, right? I mean, I've watched the animals adapt and change their behavior and I've got some great examples of that. I've watched a mountain lion kill a mule deer and the reason why it was successful is because there was a 747 flying over the top.

• 40:45Cameron Hanes?

  I've done, I've used that sound.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. And so, and animals are doing the same thing. They listen and they wait and there's just something to distract. They're gonna utilize that time.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, and that just shows right there, you, your experience of knowing that you can use that airplane going over the top to close the distance. That's, I mean, that shows that you're in tune as much as they are.

• 41:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, I, well, yeah, you take advantage of whatever you can out there. I was curious. Where I've learned the most from people is Africa. It's like, there's so much, to me, I know there's some really good people here. I'm not taking away from anything from, from what you do and your skills that you've earned, but I don't know, it's like their ability to track in ground that, cause I'm just like,

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Magic dude, magic.

• 41:35Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know Swahili, but I know enough to be like, ask, you know, what are you seeing?

• 41:42Speaker 02

  There's nothing there. It's rock. Hundred percent. I spent a couple of years in Botswana and I was, there was a guy who kind of took me under his wing, who was a, a San Bushman.

• 41:51Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Some of the best trackers in the world.

• 41:53Cameron Hanes?

  That's who you want to learn from. Yeah. I want to hunt with the Messiah too at some point.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Oh, I agree, dude. I want to go hang out with those guys and learn, cause they, they so magic. Again, it's, it's, it's thousands, millions of years of knowledge. And they're so close to that time when they had to know these things, right?

• 42:10Cameron Hanes?

  To survive.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  And I've had that exact same thing. A guy's name is Julius and he would say, he called me, bear man, three lion. And I'd look at the grass and I'd go, what are you talking, there's a grasshopper.

• 42:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Right? And, and, and you know, and we're like in tune guys. We're like, you really want to learn. I'm like, just show me what you see.

• 42:31Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  He says, you don't see that. I'm like, no, I don't see that. And, and then you follow it and you go up and there's three big male lions.

• 42:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Like what?

• 42:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  And it's so easy.

• 42:42Cameron Hanes?

  Was he seeing the grass spread where they had walked or did you, did you ever figure it out?

• 42:47Speaker 02

  Well, he said it's, it's, you know, it's L tracking's pattern recognition.

• 42:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  And some, he said it was grass doing this catching.

• 42:55Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I see.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  But it was so few and far.

• 42:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  That your eye would never see it.

• 43:01Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  But he, that disruption of pattern, regular pattern, he was so keen to it.

• 43:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  That he could see that. And then he knows width of a male between a female and a male walking, which is about that far.

• 43:14Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  And to see that amongst that pattern recognition.

• 43:18Cameron Hanes?

  That's awesome.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  It looks like magic.

• 43:20Cameron Hanes?

  That is awesome.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I could tell you so many stories about the songs. They, they would say things like, I remember one time I was trying to look for a chameleon. And I've been looking for chameleons, looking for chameleons. And he's like, I know where a chameleon is. This guy hasn't even been in the area. He's like, go to this pan, take this trail. There's a, then there'll be like four trees and there'll be one on the top. And I'm like, whatever dude, like, no way. Like there was no way I put my head together. Like, is there any way he would think there's a chameleon there? So one day we drove down there, we go to that tree and I look over and I shine a light and there's a chameleon sitting there. And I just, I have no explanation for it.

• 43:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Magic.

• 43:54Cameron Hanes?

  It's, yeah, that's, that's what, and where I've noticed too, well, the rocks and on that time, there was some scuff marks, but I mean, you know, we think we're good if we're in dirt or mud and we know what a bull kind of a stride length is as opposed to a cow. You know, and like, oh man, we're really dialed in. We got this down, you know, but they're like looking at a scuff mark from a hoof on a rock. Maybe every thirty yards. And that's, that's the path. It's like.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  And, and it's so clear to them.

• 44:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  It's like, am I someone that's wrote a note right until exactly the size and the sex of the animal and put it right there in their mind? I mean, and they're so good. But here's the thing, Cam, we're all capable of it.

• 44:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  We really are.

• 44:42Cameron Hanes?

  I've tried, but I think it takes more than three weeks in Tanzania. One thing, oh god, what was I gonna say? Uh, oh, also, they're very, so good, which, as a bow hunter, you know how hard it is to, well, for most people, to go where the animal was when you shot. You know, obviously, if it's a longer shot, it's even harder. But, um, most people shoot, some don't even know what pin they used, or wha- whatever. We'll just, we'll just assume we did better than that, right? But they shoot at the animal, and then they're over there looking for their arrow or where the animal was. That is hard.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:18Cameron Hanes?

  When you're, say, sixty yards from the animal, you take a shot, knowing, wait, was it, was it by this one? Or was it by, you know, that, they can go exactly where that animal was, and usually, right to your arrow if it went through, or right on the, I mean, right on the, and I'm just like, I am, I have so much work to do to get better at this.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  And no, it's, it's, that's exactly right. I mean, it's so inspiring.

• 45:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I did, I, I just wanna, I, I just wanna, I wanna live, not live over there. We have, we have a pretty good here. But, I wanna learn, you know, and just being over there is, it's a wild place, definitely, you know, it's like, you know, human life is, it's valued a little differently over there, but man, from those guys, you can learn so much.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  I agree, and it's been kind of a bucket list thing to go and like, just immerse myself for a year, and just go live and follow. Try to get this, if you could pick up that much.

• 46:15Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, imagine how good you'd be.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, I think that, I mean, that's just one of those things, it's just like,

• 46:21Speaker 02

  it's part of the reason why it keeps you going out there every time, because every time you go out there, you'll learn something new. And if you, you know, you take that and you kick the next day, and the next thing you learn a little bit more. I think that's, you know, again, you can just crack in the code.

• 46:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and they like, they're used, over there, what I noticed, they're used to usually rich, white guys who don't really know shit.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  They're just completely distracted, and they don't wanna learn shit.

• 46:46Cameron Hanes?

  No, so it's like, they, I had, every time I've been over there, it's been great. We got along great, I could just learn, they'd let me, you know, do whatever, and I just feel really lucky. But I think it, it makes a difference with your attitude that you take over there, and are you really a student?

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, they see it in your eyes. Oh, yeah, they know who they wanna, they know who's. They're gonna give you, they're gonna give you that time.

• 47:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  If you want it and deserve it.

• 47:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, uh, I, I, I've never learned more than I did over there for sure from, uh, from those people. Did, so Brutus, was he hired out for movies and stuff too? Did you do?

• 47:25Speaker 02

  We did, we did a little bit of that.

• 47:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we only did, it was one of those things that I never really wanted to get into it, but there was some opportunities where I knew that it was gonna be fun for him, cause he really did love to just go and do things and it was a time when I could, you know, pull up a trailer, load him out, out of his area and he'd see that trailer pull up and it was like pulling the leash off of fur dog and they get, we're going somewhere, right? And we would go do something cool.

• 47:49Cameron Hanes?

  Go on a walk.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and it, and it was always fun, cause I mean, I could take him out and I could set up a, you know, huge area for him to run around and do something. So if, if those opportunities came along and it would make a little money, um, we would do it, but only if it was fun, because I think that was a part of it, you know, I'm I'm a hypocrite, man. You know, I'm, I'm not that.

• 48:09Cameron Hanes?

  We all are.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I'm not that into like captive animals and stuff, you know, like, but I had a grizzly bear.

• 48:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  You know, um, and I think a lot of times it goes wrong when some of the stuff that you see on TV is, cause people are making an animal do something. And if you're pushing a big predator to do something every single day, that's, that's scary. Yeah, and I never, you know, I was smart enough to know, like, I'd watch him and if it was something and he looked at me and gave me that look, I'm like, nah, not gonna do it today. And he never was aggressive towards me.

• 48:42Cameron Hanes?

  Never had an issue?

• 48:44Speaker 02

  No, he, you know, again, he would go, maybe or something at me and I would go, okay, I'm done.

• 48:49Cameron Hanes?

  Like for different reasons?

• 48:51Speaker 02

  You know, like, I'm, I'm, I'm just trying to think of an example, like, you know, maybe I'm taking something away that he wanted, or you know, and he would just give me like a, no, I wanna keep this.

• 48:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Uh, and that's a, it's a bad game, cause if I let him keep it, then I'm, now I'm showing weakness, you know? But, you know, the only time he ever hurt me is like, you know, rolling over on top of me, 800 pounds.

• 49:07Cameron Hanes?

  On accident.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, would hurt, but, you know, I'm lucky, you know, again, again, there's a lot of internet wares about this guy's gonna get killed by his bear and.

• 49:18Cameron Hanes?

  Well, they were right with Timothy Treadwell.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  They were. No, and you know, and the gosh, that's a whole nother can of worms, that guy, but.

• 49:25Cameron Hanes?

  He's nuts.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  He was a, an interesting guy. I mean, I'll tell you, but I mean, you want to talk about that?

• 49:31Cameron Hanes?

  Sure.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  I mean, I've been there, that same spot. I've been to the place he's been killed.

• 49:36Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  I've spent, I've spent the same amount of time.

• 49:38Cameron Hanes?

  Was it on the peninsula or on an island?

• 49:40Speaker 02

  It was in Catmai.

• 49:41Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay. Gotcha.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. And talk about, and those bears there are the, some of the chillest bears on the planet. I mean, if, if you know the game there, you can get away with a lot. You know, he was a guy who obviously had some issues. But he did live there for 14 summers and never nothing, and nothing happened.

• 50:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  By himself.

• 50:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Which is crazy.

• 50:05Cameron Hanes?

  A long, a lot of contact time.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:07Cameron Hanes?

  With bears.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  And so there's something that, you know, and I don't like to judge anybody who never shook their hand and looked them in the eye.

• 50:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  You know, and if, right now, if, you know, Connor took our archive footage, your, from your hard drive and my hard drive and decided to make a character piece about us in the way he wanted to.

• 50:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  He could make a pretty bad, crazy one, right? He could make us look pretty crazy. So I, knowing all that. Treadwell obviously had some issues, but I'm not gonna, I can't judge him too much. And from what I know about that bear that killed him and his girlfriend, that bear would have killed you and me that day.

• 50:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  The problem was, is that we as humans are not capable of going mono y mono with a big bear.

• 50:48Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  Who's hungry. And if you don't take bear spray, you don't take a handgun, you don't put hot wire around your camp, you're gonna play even ground out there in nature? You're not gonna win.

• 50:59Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's where it went wrong with him.

• 51:02Cameron Hanes?

  Was this bear hungry, you think?

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:04Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  It was October, hyperphasia, it was an older bear who was not fat. Desperate bear. Desperate bears, man. Desperate anything.

• 51:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  There, there's lines that most animals won't cross. Thank God for us. But when they're desperate, they think about crossing that line. And that day, that bear decided, I'm hungry, the salmon run's terrible, I have to go into hibernation and try to live off the body fat that I've got for six months and I don't have any. And there's two people over there, like, you know, a little twink, or twinkie wrapper.

• 51:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  And, uh, and he come, you know, and that's what. He did. He went over there and he engaged and they had no way to protect themselves and he ate them.

• 51:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a, I think it seems like Treadwell would have been a little more dialed in, no. Cause it's, there's one thing about camping out there if the, if the creek or river is full of salmon.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:54Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, if full of salmon, you probably don't have much to worry about. But as you said, with the slow run or whatever it was that late in the year. You gotta be smarter than that, don't you?

• 52:03Speaker 02

  Understand where you're at. Yeah.

• 52:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, situational awareness. It's like, yeah, this, a bear in the wrong situation this time of year. It's pretty risky.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  And be prepared, man. I've had, I've encountered that same bear, not literally that same bear, but that same state of mind. And I've had a bear look at me that was desperate and it was gonna kill and eat me.

• 52:23Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  Um, and I was prepared. I had bear spray that day and I knew what to do in the situation and how to react to that situation. But if I didn't that day, I'd be just like him and everybody'd be talking about me right now.

• 52:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, what an idiot.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they would. Yeah. And there's probably some truth to that.

• 52:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that I, I mean, obviously he, he had issues, but apparently he loved bear too. You know, he's out, he's had 14 years. It's like, you don't, you don't spend that much time unless you care about what you're doing, I guess.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he, you know, he predicted it. It's probably the way he was gonna go.

• 52:57Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  And he wanted to live on their level. And he, at one point he did have a hot wire on his camp and he did have bear spray and he decided that he didn't want it anymore.

• 53:05Cameron Hanes?

  I saw him swimming with one, didn't he? Wasn't he out there in the water with one?

• 53:09Speaker 02

  I'll tell you, I, I would actually love to take you there at some point.

• 53:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  It's, it's a mind blowing place.

• 53:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that'd be fun.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Because we, you know, every time I ever go there, I always, we always talk about Treadwell. Cause you have to.

• 53:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  There's this iconic, and you think, I think it's a crazy shit that guy did. But you're there for two weeks and you're like, I think I could touch that bear.

• 53:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  You do. You see, that, they, they kinda just coax you to, to this crazy space.

• 53:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  Because they just don't give a shit about you.

• 53:38Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  They don't, sometimes don't even look at you. I mean, I feel like you've seen the video.

• 53:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Right? I mean, they'll come out and you watch them and you're, you're thinking, this bear's not aggressive. This bear doesn't even know I'm here. This bear don't care. Or this bear's coming over just to look at me.

• 53:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  And it'll just come over and just plop right down next to you and look at you. And in most cases. If you don't know bear behavior, it can be very terrifying, right? Cause I mean, and I think this happens all the time and it's a whole nother can of worms. But I think people engage with bears because they think they're being threatened. But half the time it's not even a threatening situation. They're just freaked out because they don't understand.

• 54:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, the bears reacting to their reaction.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I mean, I watched a video the other day and you may have seen this. Uh, there was a guy walking around the woods and this like herd of cows came over to him. And he had never, he was probably a city guy. He'd never been around cattle at all.

• 54:27Cameron Hanes?

  Like beef cows?

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're like a bunch of steers and they're friendly. I don't know if you've ever had that, they come over there, it's like curious.

• 54:32Cameron Hanes?

  Oh yeah, for sure.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  So he starts freaking out and in his mind, in that situation, that guy really thinks that he's gonna die.

• 54:39Cameron Hanes?

  They're attacking him.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's freaking out and he ends up bears.

• 54:42Cameron Hanes?

  Bulls of papalone, yeah.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  And he ends up bears ran him, right?

• 54:45Cameron Hanes?

  What?

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And when you watch it, it's hilarious.

• 54:48Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  But he just, he didn't know. And I think honestly, a lot of people encounter bears in the wild and they think they're in danger. And the way that they react and the way they engage actually causes the problem.

• 54:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  And there's a lot of people that'll be, they'll tell me, you know, whatever. But that's just the simple truth. They just don't know and it's okay.

• 55:07Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  But if you're gonna go in bear country, not only prepare yourself by carrying a handgun or a bear spray or whatever, but prepare yourself about the animal that you might encounter and try to understand them a little bit. I mean, that's the, if you're gonna go in the wild and play in the wild, man, do something, right? Prepare yourself.

• 55:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's, that's good advice for sure. Just, yeah, learn a few, at least a few habits, tendencies, things like that. Yeah, especially if you're, if you have bear spray and if you're potentially gonna use it, no, don't be spraying cows. What are you doing?

• 55:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 55:40Cameron Hanes?

  You gotta see that video, it's hilarious.

• 55:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I think that you mentioned something there, also reminded me of something else, but um.

• 55:50Cameron Hanes?

  When I did, when I was with Under Armour, we did a commercial with a wolf. And like you talked about, if you took something away from Brutus, he might react. Well, it reminded me in that when we did this commercial, this wolf had been domesticated for 11 years, but it's still a wolf. And they said, they, for the commercial, we wanted to make it snarl like, cause we were going after both, going after this bull elk and then I got it. The wolf was supposed to be mad because I had the antlers on, whatever. But they said, okay, yeah, we can make a snarl, but once we, because I took elk meat there. It said, once it knows about the elk meat and we take it away, we're done. The, we're, the filming's done today.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:34Cameron Hanes?

  Cause he, he's not gonna forget that, not gonna, it's gonna be a while. So, yeah, I mean, we had to do the, the last scene was this meat taken away. The wolf was mad, but yeah, that was the end of the day.

• 56:47Speaker 02

  Wild animal, man.

• 56:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  No matter how long it is.

• 56:50Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. 11 years, getting its belly scratched, add meat to a wolf's life.

• 56:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  It's still, it's still a wild animal. You cannot forget that ever.

• 56:57Cameron Hanes?

  Right. And that was, that was pretty interesting to me. But just knowing that even though it had been domesticated for so long, that some things never change.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  They don't.

• 57:06Cameron Hanes?

  And that one, I remember I asked how much that, that wolf cost. I think it was like 5,000 a day. We used it for a couple of days, but yeah. So it just made me think about filming with Brutus and if he's ever in movies. Cause some of those like, uh, God, what was it? I love the movie, uh, The Edge.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. That, uh, that bear was in, seemed like quite a few movies.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, Bart, Bart the Bear.

• 57:32Cameron Hanes?

  Bart?

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's the guy out of Heber City over in Utah. He had, he had Bart one and Bart two. Probably the guy, I mean, I, I know him, Doug Seuss is his name.

• 57:40Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  And that's how they made a living is making movies. I mean, The Edge, um, was that one, uh, there's a few of them that.

• 57:47Cameron Hanes?

  There's one, Legends of the Fall, I think.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that bear, man, was a Kodiak.

• 57:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, huge.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Huge bear. I mean, a Kodiak is big, but a Kodiak that's been eating Twinkies and ice cream for its entire life, dude. Two thousand pounds.

• 58:01Cameron Hanes?

  Right. And I think in those movie, well, I know Legends of the Fall, that's supposed to be Montana.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:05Cameron Hanes?

  I think, I'm like, that's a big bear.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  You're not gonna see that one in Montana.

• 58:09Cameron Hanes?

  It's like fifteen hundred pounds.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  No, that bear was huge. And, and, and also a big gentle giant.

• 58:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it looked like it. I mean, they made, they made him react. So he did a good job. I mean, good actor.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:20Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know what they did.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, he's opening his mouth for a marshmallow or something, but it's showing us, totally.

• 58:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  Hundred percent, yeah. Add sound and it sounds, it looks like you're gonna get killed.

• 58:29Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, it's so good. Yeah, that was a epic scene at the end. I, you know, putting the, putting the, what was it? The spear and the rocks?

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, let him kill himself.

• 58:40Cameron Hanes?

  What's the chances of that actually working?

• 58:44Cameron Hanes?

  In real life?

• 58:45Speaker 02

  I'll tell you what.

• 58:45Cameron Hanes?

  You'd have to have a lot go right, wouldn't you?

• 58:47Speaker 02

  Oh, so much. There, this reminded me of something I completely forgot about. There was a guy, this was probably twenty, fifteen, twenty years ago. He came to, he found, somehow found our information. He's like, I want to meet with you. I got this crazy proposition. There's this idea I want to talk to you about. I'm like, okay. So I met with him and as soon as I see this guy, he looks, he, he looks like, he looked like, I remember, you know, Boss Rutan?

• 59:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. He looked just like that guy.

• 59:13Cameron Hanes?

  Pretty scary.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he comes walking over to me and I'm like, who's this dude? And he was like an ex Navy SEAL or something.

• 59:18Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  And he wanted to go kill an Alaskan brown bear with a broadsword. That's, and he was trying to find an outfitter that would do it and, and no outfitters would want to do it. But he had a guy.

• 59:30Cameron Hanes?

  They don't even like bow hunters, these outfitters, let alone sword.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  He, but he believed he could do it. So he wanted, and it was an interesting thing. He's like, I want to talk about tactic. I want to know if this is possible. Very similar to The Edge, like, you know?

• 59:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  Can, can it engage with me and I somehow can, you know? The problem with movies is. The bear doesn't engage that way. A bear does not run up to you and stand up and go

• 59:53Speaker 02

  A bear is coming at you as fast as a racehorse and it doesn't even break stride when it mows you over. And you don't even see it coming. It's a missile, right?

• 1:00:01Cameron Hanes?

  You think a linebacker hits hard?

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  Oh, exactly. And so that's, that's how it's gonna come. So if you can pull your broadsword out and hit something 30 miles an hour in a spot that Yeah. So I, I kinda talked him out of it, but he was 100% really wanting to try to do this. That's the thing. They're lightning fast.

• 1:00:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  And they're smart. You know, there was, there's stories of, I used to do these things in California, bear bull fights. It was like in the 1600s.

• 1:00:24Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  Very early on.

• 1:00:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  And they'd put these bears and bulls together. And there was like, kind of this Super Bowl of bear bull fights and this big California grizzly at the time had killed every bull had ever been put in front of it. And so what they were gonna do for this kind of Super Bowl thing was run bulls at it until it died. And see how many. This bear killed 13 bulls before it fatigued enough that that one finally gored it.

• 1:00:49Cameron Hanes?

  Whoa.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  But he had a tactic and that bear would rush him and he would just kind of like a matador just stepped aside and then come back with that paw.

• 1:00:57Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, the bull would rush him?

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it would just smash the back of that, right in the back of the head and kill the bull, break his neck like that. And the bear knew how to dis-tactic, right? And knew how to deal with these bulls. And this shows that they're not only this perfect fighting specimen.

• 1:01:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  Smart too, which is amazing.

• 1:01:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And, and fa- I mean, that just tells me how fast they are.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  So fast.

• 1:01:19Cameron Hanes?

  Coming up with a tactic, yes, that's, that's a little scary. But, you know, I've thought about this too. That's a fascinating story. I had not heard that. But if you've been in Africa, you've seen the baboons. And like, I've sat on, been sitting on water before and like a baboon shows up and you're just like, whatever. Then another one shows up and then they're like, kind of talking a little bit. And then all of a sudden, there's a bunch of them. And I remember I was sitting there going, If these fucking things actually decided to like, hey, let's get that dipshit. Cause you know baboons, I mean, their teeth are giant, nasty and huge and they're scary looking. And I was like, you kind of like, kind of lure yourself into confidence and ah, they're not gonna,

• 1:02:05Cameron Hanes?

  they, they don't communicate like that, but man, if they did, not good.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:02:10Cameron Hanes?

  But that, that story kind of like, well, God, maybe, maybe the, these animals are smarter than what I've given them credit for.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  They definitely are, man. I think that's, that's one of those things and it's, it's a tough, it's a tough thing, you know? I'm, I'm pretty pragmatic.

• 1:02:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  I want to talk about facts, right? When, especially when it comes to animals, you know, especially, you know, we talked about this earlier a little bit, just, people look at me and they don't, when I tell them I hunt elk and I eat elk and I have done that in my entire life. They're like, what? Aren't you like an animal lover? And the, and the truth is I'm probably one of the biggest animal lovers in the world. I make a living by being around them and understanding them. And when it comes to these things, I want to, I just want to tell you what I know, right? I don't, I didn't go to school for this. I have a PhD of just being in the wild. And I don't pretend to know everything, but I think when you start to learn about these animals and start to see them for what they really are factually, it just changes your mind a little bit about them.

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  You know, and I think you, you gotta, you gotta combat the extremes, right? You know, there's a lot of people out there that think wolves are killing every elk on the planet. Bears are gonna maul you every time you go in the woods. All those, all that, there's some fact there. And then there's the other side of me. I like, I like to call it the Jethro's versus the moonbeams. There's like every predator needs to die. And then there's like, I have a connection with a wolf. I've looked at me in the eye on the full moon and it loves me.

• 1:03:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  And the truth is, is that there's something in here, right? And I think that moving forward with animals and understanding animals, whether it's management or how we're going to interact with them and coexist with them on the planet, we have to kind of understand this part, right?

• 1:03:43Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  Cause if we live over here, we live over here, this is going to shut down hunting forever and everything is going to be a, it's going to be a chaos. You go over here, we're going to knock ecosystems out of balance or we're going to mow down, it's going to be, you know,

• 1:03:56Cameron Hanes?

  Chaos.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  Chaos.

• 1:03:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:03:57Cameron Hanes?

  And just different way.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  And I think you gotta try to figure out that middle ground and part of it's just understanding them, you know, and we're good, we gotta, we wanna go out in the wild and live with these wild animals and have wild spaces, right? And if, and part of it's just trying, the world's changing, they're adapting, we're trying to adapt for them. What can, what can we get away with, right? And I think with part of understanding how we're gonna do is to understand who our neighbors are. And I think that that's important. And bears are smart. They, they're willing to change. We can teach them things. We can, you know? You know, you see these female bears, they're raising their cubs next to roads. And the reason why they're doing it's they're smart, because they know that, no, because big males and packs of wolves won't come close to the road.

• 1:04:40Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I see.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  So they, they learn that if they can tolerate people, there's plenty of food along the road for them to eat. The other animals, their threats, don't tolerate people. They've got this little safe haven there.

• 1:04:51Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  And you start seeing this over and over with these animals. It's so cool to understand it's not just, they're actually using their brain.

• 1:04:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  And then you start to realize that you're like, okay, this is a compromise. It's a, let's let them be there.

• 1:05:04Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, figure it out.

• 1:05:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's a, yeah, good points for sure. Um, I was thinking too, uh, yeah, just as you're, as I said, I've had a million thoughts, couldn't sleep last night, but uh, I don't know why this one came up, but I did see that you had made an appearance on Oprah.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:25Cameron Hanes?

  How did that happen?

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  Some producer reached out, heard the story, yeah, and wanted, I've been on, done two shows with her.

• 1:05:33Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, you have?

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  You know, dude.

• 1:05:36Cameron Hanes?

  You never took Brutus there, did you?

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  No, we were going to, just couldn't do it. Yeah, we couldn't do it. Liability. We were gonna go there. And then like the lawyers got involved, right?

• 1:05:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, God.

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Can't have a grizzly bear in the studio. Go figure. Yeah.

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, but it was again, it was one of those things. I mean, let's be honest, Brutus is was the reason why anybody even give a shit about me.

• 1:05:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  You know, and

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  there was a period of time I had this responsibility, not only just making sure that he had a good life, but also the responsibility to be able to talk

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  reasonably about it. You know, and

• 1:06:15Cameron Hanes?

  Like, what do you mean?

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  I mean, okay, you know, you said again in front of the beginning, like I said, you know, you look at your profile and says animal activist.

• 1:06:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Honestly, most animal activists don't talk reasonably about things.

• 1:06:26Cameron Hanes?

  That's true.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  You know, and so

• 1:06:28Cameron Hanes?

  Usually extreme is thrown in there, extreme animal activist.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly. And I think that there's something there. It's like I, there's this responsibility. People are going to come to me like Oprah. I've been on Conan, I've been on Good Morning America, I've had the platforms, right? And when you're on those platforms, you gotta make sure you talk, you're not talking shit. You gotta talk in fact.

• 1:06:49Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  And the fact is based on something that you've seen with your own eyes and felt with your own heart. Not something that some dude told you down the road because you got, it's already gone through a filter.

• 1:06:57Cameron Hanes?

  Otherwise, you're on those extremes we talked about.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right?

• 1:07:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I think, you know, when I talk about grizzly bears, I'm only talking about my experiences with grizzly bears and I've had a lot of them. And I just want to talk the facts. I try not to draw a hard line because I know I'm still learning. I hear things from people. I've seen things that have changed my mind and I will tomorrow. You know, and I think, but I think that yeah, getting on Oprah, that was a huge, it was a huge platform because and now it's a lot of, you know, who watches Oprah? They're not, they're not people who are thinking about grizzly bears or talking about grizzly bears. But they're people who are voting. They're people who are making decisions. You know, and so when they see somebody who loves and high fives a grizzly bear and gives it a bear hug, but also goes out and kills an elk with his bow every year.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  And he can talk about how there's a balance there. We can do both of these things. We can love the grizzly bear and kill elk at the same time. We can figure out, hey, guess what? If grizzly bears are overpopulated, guess what we've got to do? We got to manage them, right? When they hear me say that, it freaks people out. What, what dude? I'm like, this is how this, there's a, there's a way this works.

• 1:07:59Cameron Hanes?

  You'd kill your friend?

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  Exactly. But there's a way this works and we got to find, we got to find the, that middle ground.

• 1:08:06Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  And so when you get a platform like that, it's important because it's not you and me voting. It's everybody, right? And you just got, I try to be reasonable. It's a huge responsibility. And I try to talk about the whole spectrum.

• 1:08:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, cuz you get influence millions with what you say. Hundred platform like that.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  I mean, a hundred percent. You know, when people, especially, I mean, we're talking about predators particularly, right? Wolves, grizzly bears, mountain lions, there's things that I'm, that I've made a living being able to film. And people look at me as an expert on those things. And these are animals, every, you know, every year, there's some legislation thing comes up. And it's like, what do you think about this? What do you think about this? And I think a lot of people come to me. And there's, you know, there's the different styles that come to me that want me to reinforce what they think.

• 1:08:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  And I just tell them what I feel and see, you know, again, I'm not, it's not a, it's not a feeling thing. It's more of a factual thing. Because I do think right now, we are, there's a lot of legislation around animal management is based in fantasy and fairy tales and feelings.

• 1:09:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:09:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  You know, if you don't see mountain lions out there, they're going extinct. We gotta save them all. We can't hunt them anymore.

• 1:09:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  You know, and bears, they're grizzly bears, they're teddy bears. We can't hunt them anymore. And the bottom.

• 1:09:23Cameron Hanes?

  They're endangered.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  They're endangered. Yeah. You know, and it's, and the big bad wolf thing, I mean, wolves, yeah, they kill elk. They make populations of elk go down. Do we need to manage them? We do, right? And when some, when people come to me and they hear that from me, that's just, I'm not, it's not a feeling. It's not, it's just a fact, right? And it's, it's the way it works. You know, we live in a place now where there's a lot of human influence in the wild, right? And the more we understand about all these animals, elk, deer, moose, bears, wolves. The more we understand them, the better we can make decisions about how we can live with them, right? And I think that I'm out there trying to learn. I'm trying to help that movement, right? And I think that that's just it.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  And it's important to have the right facts. And I, every day I go out there, again, I don't know everything. It's always changing, but I'm trying to find out and I'm trying to give back to the people through knowledge. That'll help them make the right decision. You know, I don't know, man, I could go on. I mean, it's like, it's, you know, I'm, I'm very anti.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  Ballot box biology. I, I, it just drives me crazy because it's based on feelings, right?

• 1:10:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  And feelings and nature never, never, never worked that way.

• 1:10:38Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  And, and, and to think, again, I'm on a soapbox right now, but it's like, to be so arrogant. To think that whether you believe in God or evolution or whatever, that for somehow we as humans, our feelings are going to fix that.

• 1:10:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  It's figured itself out for millions of years, right? It's, and it's, so we gotta like embrace that and it's, you know, and it's not, I love wolves so much, I think we need to bring them back to Colorado because I got a really cool poster on my wall.

• 1:11:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  No, you know, there should be a commute, you know, biologists who are professionals, understand what a balanced ecosystem looks like. And there should be a committee of them who make a decision, say, you know what? No, we don't need wolves or we need a lot less wolves or yeah, we need a wolf here or there. Uh, it's going to make it better, right?

• 1:11:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Or, but it's not built that way. Right now, we're, we have some politician who never even, has never been out in the woods making decisions. We've got people that live in downtown Denver who are checking, I want wolves and put it in the thing. And there's some ranchers who's going to, down the road, who's going to hate it.

• 1:11:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Uh, and it shouldn't be that way, man. It should be people that are professionals, understand, who've been out there, who put the time in, who put the reps in, who understand how it works, looking out for the best interest of everybody.

• 1:11:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I think what's frustrating for most people is that the people in the cities who don't have to deal with these repercussions are making the decisions, just how the voting populace works. You know, it's ranchers who have wolves in their pasture all the time, killing cows or, or lions, who killing, you know, sheep or goats or whatever else. It's like, they're the ones dealing with it.

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  And they're a minority and they're a minority and no one's listening to them very often. And, and you have to.

• 1:12:20Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  And they're living, they're living it.

• 1:12:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I think you said something earlier too, is like that, that you, I can't remember how you worded, but you love animals, you know, you hunt and animal activists, you're like, well, how do you balance both these things? But I feel the same way. I, I love, I love animals. I mean, yes, I kill them and it seems weird, but when I kill them, it's with reverence and respect. I don't enjoy the killing part, but it's what I do.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:48Cameron Hanes?

  How I survive, it's how I eat, it's how what my family eats. It's just like how it's how it's gonna have to be. Animals have to die for us, whether we're killing it or paying somebody else to do it for us. But I love, I mean, I do have a poster or picture of a wolf on my wall. I also have a wolf hide right there.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:06Cameron Hanes?

  You can, you can be both.

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  You can be, and I, and I think most people are. You know, I, I joke about this, you know, there's, we were talking about this, the Jethros and the moonbeams, right?

• 1:13:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  These are extremes. But what doesn't exist is what I call the radical center. And the radical center needs to talk because it's the majority of us. We need to fight for what we have because otherwise the squeaky wheels, these are the squeaky wheels out here. Then they're getting, they're getting everything. And the pendulum swings every time there's something changes. We go from like, kill all the predators to let's hug all the predators, kill all the predators, let's hug all the predators. No, dude, most people are like you and I, and we're right here.

• 1:13:48Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  We'd love to be out there hunting where there's packs of wolves and grizzly bears on the landscape. We wanna be part of the predators.

• 1:13:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  You know, it's, it's the wild places, these intact ecosystems are good for everybody. They're good for hunters, they're good for tree huggers, they're good for Jethro, they're good for everybody. And I think that that's where we gotta try to find. I mean, that's just it. It's just hard, that radical center or whatever needs us to talk and start to, you know, cause we, we're usually basing our, it's unselfish. It's not feelings. It's coming from fact. And that's where we gotta find, or else it's all gonna go away, man. That's just the way it is.

• 1:14:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure. No, and I think that, I like that, you know, the radical center, because when politician, you never really know what politician is up to. See, so in Colorado, there's people who think that, you know, they want the wolves and the predators in there to knock down the animals we hunt, the prey animals, so then there's, doesn't need to be hunting because there's no animals to hunt. So then you don't need guns. So there's like, and I don't know if that's true or not, but I don't trust politicians.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:14:54Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so. I have my own thoughts on it. If I had a politician who was just honest about it, how refreshing would that be? Like, yeah, hey, from the hunters' point of view, here's what I I hear and I understand that from the ranchers, from the anti-hunters, whatever, just be logical about it and just be honest. And it's like, that's so hard to get because when you don't have that, then you fill in the blanks. You know, hunters fill in the blanks like, yep, they're trying to take our guns. See?

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that's so right. It's it's hard, man. It's a hard and I think it's just we gotta try to find the pendulum's gonna swing. We just gotta make it swing less. Yeah, get it in here. It's gonna do this maybe a little bit. But I mean, I think it's it's perfectly what you said. I mean, it's that balance. Can you have wolves and grizzly bears on the landscape and still kill elk?

• 1:15:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, if you do it right.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  If you do it right. Yeah. And I and I think there's there's something like that. I mean, you know, right now, Montana, it's it's real close to me. It's like, I have friends who are outfitters who have been decimated. Their their business has been decimated because wolves have knocked the elk population down. Right?

• 1:15:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  But I also have friends who are who are guides who make tons of monies. In fact, the county I live in makes fifty million dollars on wildlife viewing every year. It's the number one, way above ag, way above hunting. So there's those people too. Yeah. So now you look at it, I'm like, okay, I got my buddy Warren, who's an outfitter, who's having a little harder time, you know, getting the fat guys to kill big bulls.

• 1:16:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  But he's still killing big bulls. Right? And I've got my buddy Evan, who's got having a heyday because there's a lot of wolves on the landscape and a lot of people are coming to see him. But can, is there a space where Evan can still have his people come see wolves and Warren's still killing some big, big, big bulls?

• 1:16:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  Right? Yeah. And I think that we gotta find that. We gotta care about our neighbors. We gotta care about everybody's perspective. And how you find that is is simple. It's God's plan already. It's evolution's plan already. Whatever you believe in, there are aliens put it here. Is about a balanced ecosystem?

• 1:16:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  Will work for both. Now, will Fat Billy be able to kill a six-point bull off the side of the road every year anymore? Probably not. But you know what? I call that participation trophy hunting.

• 1:17:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:07Speaker 02

  Right? You should be a good hunter to be able to kill a big six-point bull.

• 1:17:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  You should be able to go out there and, you know, and so, and now can Moonbeam see a wolf every single day?

• 1:17:18Cameron Hanes?

  Probably not.

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  Or she got to get out of her car and walk up the trail a little bit?

• 1:17:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  But if you find it in here, maybe they can both. I mean, and who, it's win-win, right?

• 1:17:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but I, I think to your point too, it's like, the, the right people making the decisions are best suited for getting us in that position. You know, I mean, uh, it can't be the ballot box people. It's gotta be the professionals.

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. And how can we do that?

• 1:17:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:41Speaker 02

  Right? I think we just gotta demand it.

• 1:17:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:17:43Speaker 02

  Cause I mean, right now, Montana, we're in a, we're in the swing right now. They're like, you know, the same thing in Utah, they're trying to kill forty percent of the mountain lion population. And they go, how many mountain lions are there? We don't know. How can you kill forty percent of them? And they're, it's just, it's a, it's a knee-jerk thing that some guy in legislators deciding.

• 1:17:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  And, and it's, it's short, it's short-sightedness, man. It's, and again, it's just, there's the mule deer population are taking a hit, right? But mountain lion do kill mule deer.

• 1:18:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  Right? So you take a couple of mountain lions out and some mule deer population might go up. But simultaneously, they're, they still have doe tags. And it's like, okay, wait a minute.

• 1:18:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  Okay. So then, and then it's, and I guess the other short side of this is, is like, most of the biologists say, you know, it's a little more complicated than that. You take a bunch of cats out, everything kinda gets out of whack. We can take, we should take some cats out, no doubt. But you take enough cats out, the coyote population goes up. Now you've got an animal who kills a mule deer once a week, and you've got coyotes now that kill mule deer every other day.

• 1:18:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  And so you think that that, you know, A equals B. No, it doesn't work that way.

• 1:18:45Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  Nature is much more complicated.

• 1:18:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  And, yeah, again, back to that, to think that we're so arrogant.

• 1:18:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  That we can go to the biology, the ballot box and do God's work.

• 1:18:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Speaker 02

  With one decision.

• 1:18:55Cameron Hanes?

  That's not realistic, but it's, uh, you know, you mentioning the, the fifty million dollars for, you said photos, right?

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  It's just wildlife viewing.

• 1:19:04Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, viewing. Yeah. It's, uh, cause that, to me, then you got people who will say, oh, so that's the answer. See, we don't need hunting. We can, we can still protect these local communities, um, Resources by having people come in just to view the animals. You don't have to kill them. And you know, this has been talked about in Africa too. And what happens in Africa on a photo safari, which I'm sure you've been on is like for some, I don't know about most of them, some of them, but they go to the exact same places all the time. So they are ruining the habitat, basically, because they keep going. And to get the animals there, they're killing animals to put, to get the lions

• 1:19:43Cameron Hanes?

  in there. So it's like, you're not really doing what you might think you're doing something different, but you're not really. You're still tough on the habitat, killing animals.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  It's such, it's a big thing. And as a filmmaker who goes out in the wild and like, you know, well, I'll go to Alaska, for example, and film these bears, right? And I take that back and it goes on the screen. Next time I go there, there's 200 people there on the same place that I was saying, this is the most wonderful wild place I've ever been. Guess who did that?

• 1:20:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  I did.

• 1:20:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  And so it's again, back to that, I'm a fricking hypocrite, dude. I just, it's, it's one of those things you gotta protect it. You know, back to Yellowstone, you know, you, you stop killing predators, you stop managing predators in that same place. The ecosystem, we live in a world now that humans are a big part of the ecosystem.

• 1:20:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:31Speaker 02

  And without management, because we're taking away habitat all the time, we're doing all kinds of things, we're making it out of whack, without making proper management decisions and taking some predators off the landscape, all those animals that everybody's gonna go try to take pictures of are all gonna get sick and die. Things are gonna get out of whack. So it's, it's just understanding that balance and understanding how it works. But no one wants to.

• 1:20:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, that, that takes, yeah. Nuance has kind of lost its way these days. People just want these knee jerk reactions, but sometimes you do have to look a little deeper and yeah, understand it a little better. And that's why you can't vote on it. Because most people who vote aren't spending the time. I mean, when, when half, only half the people vote on the presidential election, it's just like voting, there's some flaws in voting. So we definitely don't want them deciding what animals are on the landscape.

• 1:21:24Cameron Hanes?

  So, oh, that's what I was gonna say. So you, you had Brutus on Oprah in 2009. When was the other time?

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  Uh, probably like 2012 after that.

• 1:21:34Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, after that?

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:35Cameron Hanes?

  You guys still buddies, you and Oprah?

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  I haven't heard anything from Oprah in a long time. Yeah. She didn't call me. Yeah, you better call me after this. Yeah, no, she didn't call me after that. Um, yeah.

• 1:21:47Cameron Hanes?

  Well, that's a cool opportunity, though.

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  It was huge. And again, from our conversation we just had, you can see the value in those.

• 1:21:52Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think anytime anybody wants to talk about, I don't care who, where, what side of the fence they're on. I, I ride the fence. You know, I'm a hypocrite that rides the fence all the time.

• 1:22:02Cameron Hanes?

  No, I mean, you have to understand both sides.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:05Cameron Hanes?

  You know, to be able to address both the issues on both sides. But, uh,

• 1:22:10Cameron Hanes?

  what's like, what's your big project now? What are you working on?

• 1:22:14Speaker 02

  The big thing now is, like I said, all the kids are, you know, there's no one's making Planet Earth 4. No one's doing any of that stuff. So going the YouTube route.

• 1:22:22Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:23Cameron Hanes?

  What's your channel? Yeah.

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think that's it. You know, I'm going out there. I'm just trying to do what I've been doing, like trying to find cool stories. In fact, you know, it's one of those things like, anybody listening to this, you've got a cool story? Like, that's the thing. Almost all the stories that I'm working on my endless venture right now.

• 1:22:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  Are people that I've met over the years that like come up to me and go, dude, I know where there's this cave. Me and my buddy stuck our head in it, but we never went any farther. But I think there's something back there. And I'm like, all right, this is an episode. We're gonna go figure out what's in that cave.

• 1:22:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:55Speaker 02

  You know, one of my, one of my buddies, I don't know if you know Tyler Johnerson, one of the best, yeah, best hunters I know. Him and I were following cat tracks. Uh, and we followed him to this cave, like little cave opening. And we dug some dirt out and we went down in this cave and there's this big waterfall and stuff. And it was just, and we couldn't go any farther. And we backed out. I forgot about this thing. So 13 years later, I went back to this cave. And now it's opened up where we've, um, discovered about a mile of undiscovered cave no one's ever been in.

• 1:23:22Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:23:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so like, there's episodes like that. So there episode, um, a buddy of mine was up elk hunting and he crawled up in these rocks. And he glassed across and thought he saw a bighorn skull in kind of a window rock sitting there perched. And he's told me about this for like 20 years. And I'm just like, we gotta go see what this is. Cause that seems kind of weird, a bighorn skull where he was describing it. We climbed up there. It was obvious this bighorn skull was placed in this like beautiful spire. Um, I took an archaeologist up there. We found this huge spear point.

• 1:23:57Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  Um, this thing's been there since a revolutionary war. It was a complete hunting magic offering by the Tuukka Dika, the sheep eater people.

• 1:24:06Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Uh, so telling that story.

• 1:24:08Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah. That's amazing.

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's that. And then I'm, you know, going to Nepal, tracking man eating tigers. I'm, um, going to, I'm going to be next month. I'm going to be in the Himalayas, uh, tracking Himalayan brown bears and snow leopards.

• 1:24:20Cameron Hanes?

  That'd be sick.

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  So it's all, it's just all that, like going out, it's kind of adventure raw, pretty, you know, not super produced, just kind of in the moment.

• 1:24:27Cameron Hanes?

  Are you filming yourself or do you take somebody to film?

• 1:24:31Speaker 02

  I've got, I've got a little right hand man, kind of like you've got old James over there. Yeah.

• 1:24:34Cameron Hanes?

  I got two. They're not really men, but.

• 1:24:37Speaker 02

  The right hand boys. Yeah. No, me and Riley, we just, it's a two man team, quick and simple.

• 1:24:42Cameron Hanes?

  Not Riley Reid?

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:24:44Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:24:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, just quick and simple. Like it's just usually just me and him and we just, I, you know, try to find crazy wild places and tell stories. Again, and hopefully get out to the masses. So people can kind of get a feeling what the wild is all about.

• 1:24:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's, I, I love stuff like that. That man, that sheep story with the dude.

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  I, I'll tell you.

• 1:25:05Cameron Hanes?

  That's like what you're out there. That's what you hope to find every time, like some, it's like a treasure.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  Dude, so this, in the tracks of the lion, in the tracks of the mountain lion, this is no coincidence. I have found so many Native American arrowheads or spear points or things. And it's, and it's because the greatest hunters on the planet walk in the same tracks. I'm not looking for that. So I'm just following mountain lion tracks and they just always take me to cool Native American stuff.

• 1:25:33Cameron Hanes?

  Incredible.

• 1:25:33Speaker 02

  And I always thought this is just like the most amazing thing. And this spot where this bighorn sheep skull is, I've tracked cats to. When you go out there, here's a, it's a big ram.

• 1:25:44Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  And so when that thing was killed, you know what a big ram head weighs.

• 1:25:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:48Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:25:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:48Speaker 02

  It was a sketch climb. Like we needed ropes when we brought the guy back because when I, when I went on there, I thought I was going to die.

• 1:25:56Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:25:56Speaker 02

  So then I imagined that there was some dude. Three hundred years ago, arrows, this bighorn sheep, cuts its head off, knew, had landscape awareness to know where this perfect rock hole thing was, like, I have the needle. Carried that thing, sketch, like, you know, Alex Honnold, Free Solo.

• 1:26:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:15Speaker 02

  With this head, put it there, and then, probably, what the guy, the archaeologist said, and then napped this, it's actually made of quartz, beautiful quartz point, at the site, and probably fasted four days, and sat there and had like a mission quest. And to sit in the place of that, the other thing about that, that was just, it was so, I, like, that's my church, man, when I see that stuff, like.

• 1:26:35Cameron Hanes?

  Is this a video? Did you make this?

• 1:26:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's gonna, it's kinda coming out.

• 1:26:38Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, it's not, not out yet?

• 1:26:39Speaker 02

  Not out yet, yeah.

• 1:26:40Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, God, I can't wait to see this.

• 1:26:41Speaker 02

  But being in the presence of this thing just gave me, like, I had just, like, chills and goosebumps. And then I just, then there was just like sadness that sat over me because three hundred years ago, that was like one of the last wild natives. He did not know it was coming. You know, he was still doing these things and living with the bighorn sheep and killing them with friggin' arrows and, and sitting up on this.

• 1:27:00Cameron Hanes?

  Life was good then.

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this, off in the distance, man, it was just like, there was a revolutionary war on the East Coast happening and things were about to change. And there was something about that that was, made that story even more powerful.

• 1:27:11Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:12Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, but that's the kind of stuff. I mean, it's, it's not just animals, it's just telling stories that buddies have told me, old outfitters, there's an old outfitter guy who's gonna take me to this cave that's got some, like, cave art in it that no one ever's ever seen except for him. Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm gathering stories because people have always told me these crazy stories.

• 1:27:29Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:30Speaker 02

  And, you know, you hear them, about fifty percent of them are real, they're bullshit. I put a little filter on that and I'm chasing these crazy stories.

• 1:27:37Cameron Hanes?

  That reminded me, I, uh, San Carlos, again, um, said there's like a three-story cave and like a mummified body and twenty-seven arrows. And so I, I walked down this creek drainage for miles, because I'm like, wait, so where, where was it? But. I mean, could you imagine finding something like that?

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  Let's go find it. That's like, that's, that is all I need. Let's go. I'm not kidding you. I love that, dude. That's like.

• 1:28:03Cameron Hanes?

  I, I guess they barred it up because somebody went in there and stole the arrows, but they got all of them, but one back. But so anyway, point is, is like, I, I love stories like that. And it's just like, I'm always, when I'm out hunting, I'm half the time just looking for stuff, just like exploring.

• 1:28:24Speaker 02

  Oh, totally. A hundred percent.

• 1:28:26Cameron Hanes?

  Exploring.

• 1:28:27Speaker 02

  How many times have I gone out looking for something and found something else?

• 1:28:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  In fact, okay, so down in that neck of the woods, Arizona.

• 1:28:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Uh, I had a

• 1:28:37Speaker 02

  producer send me a note and said, hey, do you think you can find mountain lions in this area? I said, well, maybe, you know, they're very rarely seen in this area that he was talking about, but I can go. So he's like, literally my job was just to go try to find mountain lions. So I go down there, start tracking mountain lions and end up on this ranch, big, like right near the Grand Canyon, big rocky cliffs, stuff, huge boar elk in that area. And I'm following this mountain lion track and it's like mixed mud and snow and it kind of goes up under this big pine tree and the cat scrapes, right? And I looked down in the scrape where that pine leg kicked that big old pile of pine needles up and on top of it is this freaking perfect arrowhead.

• 1:29:20Cameron Hanes?

  Ah.

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  Just sitting in there.

• 1:29:22Cameron Hanes?

  God.

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, it's the most perfect arrowhead I've ever seen. And I was just sort of looking at it and I had just seen these huge bull elk down there. And I'm just like, this is so cool. Cause like that lion was no doubt probably hunting these elk. That dude is no doubt hunting these elk. It's in this beautiful, crazy landscape and there's this point, a rock that some dude has sat in like intricately carved.

• 1:29:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  That he's going to strap on it in the end of a stick and they're going to shove through an elk to eat. And it's just like, and then I look at that stuff and it's just like, um, yeah, I mean, I, you could just have, be in that moment, have even a fraction of the skills that cat and that dude ever had.

• 1:30:00Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  And, and this, the honor to be able to like. Spend to sit in the footsteps of those.

• 1:30:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:08Speaker 02

  People and that animal.

• 1:30:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's uh, that's, that's what makes it special. That's the mountains are, I don't know, never gets old.

• 1:30:17Speaker 02

  And here.

• 1:30:18Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, what do we got?

• 1:30:20Speaker 02

  I wanted to give that to you.

• 1:30:21Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, this is mine?

• 1:30:23Speaker 02

  That's it. Yeah.

• 1:30:24Cameron Hanes?

  This is the one you just described?

• 1:30:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:25Cameron Hanes?

  What?

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  The best arrowhead I've ever found.

• 1:30:28Cameron Hanes?

  Oh my.

• 1:30:29Speaker 02

  Probably around, I mean, look out, look out, look how intricate that's.

• 1:30:34Cameron Hanes?

  Do you try to not touch it?

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  You can touch it.

• 1:30:36Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, good. Whoa, that is a perfect.

• 1:30:41Speaker 02

  I've never found one more perfect.

• 1:30:43Cameron Hanes?

  Do we got to zoom in on this thing? Can we zoom? Camera 12. Yeah, camera 12 will be zooming on.

• 1:30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I thought, you know, it's one of those things that I know you have a connection to that part of the world. You've killed elk, big elk down there.

• 1:30:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's amazing. Look at that perfect arrowhead.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  And I know you have, you need a connection not only to land, but the, the, to honor that person. Here's the thing.

• 1:31:06Cameron Hanes?

  Thank you.

• 1:31:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. No, my pleasure.

• 1:31:09Cameron Hanes?

  That means so much to me.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  That guy, think about the wisdom that that guy had. Think about how in tune that guy was. Think about how much that meant to him. And I always thought to myself, it's like, okay, that guy's long gone now, but if he knew all that hard work that he put into that was now in the hands of one of the best bow hunters on the planet today. I mean, that's an honor, I think.

• 1:31:32Cameron Hanes?

  That is, that's incredible. Thank you very much.

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  You're welcome.

• 1:31:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that is a beautiful head. I can't believe how per, you're right.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  Oh, they don't, they don't, the thing is, is that it was in the duff on that, those needles probably buried down and that cat just happened to.

• 1:31:47Cameron Hanes?

  Scrape it up?

• 1:31:47Speaker 02

  Scrape it up. And uh, cause you don't ever see him like that.

• 1:31:52Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:31:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:53Cameron Hanes?

  That is beautiful.

• 1:31:54Speaker 02

  And it's.

• 1:31:54Cameron Hanes?

  Thank you.

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  You're welcome. Yeah, that, and that's probably around uh, 800 years old.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:02Cameron Hanes?

  How sick is that? Yeah, that's amazing.

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:07Cameron Hanes?

  Why do I want to kill something with it?

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know what you can do. You can put it in your lip like a zen or whatever you want.

• 1:32:15Cameron Hanes?

  I want to put it on a necklace. I want to do something with it, but it's badass. Thank you very much.

• 1:32:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. And I think that, like I said, you have a connection to that part of the world. I know you'd honor that more than anybody would.

• 1:32:27Cameron Hanes?

  No, it means a lot to me to hunt down there with those, with the, you know, the patchies down there.

• 1:32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, you want to put it in your lip like a zen or put it on a necklace or take it back, take it back home, whatever you want to do, man. It's yours.

• 1:32:38Cameron Hanes?

  That's beautiful. Thank you. Um, yeah, I love it. Man, that's a treasures that we find out there. Um.

• 1:32:49Cameron Hanes?

  You guys got your questions?

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:52Cameron Hanes?

  This, this usually leads to, to more good discussions. Well, not usually because they're usually stupid questions, but. Oh, yeah. Nice.

• 1:33:00Speaker 02

  Dang.

• 1:33:01Cameron Hanes?

  I found this in the Grand Canyon.

• 1:33:06Cameron Hanes?

  Which one is it? Oh, this is mine, the pack out Skinner.

• 1:33:09Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 1:33:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I'm going to open it for you, just so you can look at it.

• 1:33:13Speaker 02

  This is the kind of, this is the kind of gift trading I like to do, arrowheads for knives.

• 1:33:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, and Montana Knife has the best packaging.

• 1:33:23Speaker 02

  Dude, their knives, I, I, I don't own one. I actually have reached out to them, trying to make a deal with them. I guess I'm probably too much of a animal activist for them.

• 1:33:32Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  But I, my buddy, James's buddy, Eli.

• 1:33:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:38Speaker 02

  We killed my bull this year. I was, you know, I had like one of those disposable, what are they called? Havilin kind of.

• 1:33:45Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:46Speaker 02

  And I was working on it and he broke out his Montana Knife Company knife, dude, and just cleaned it up. And I was like, I gotta get one of these.

• 1:33:54Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, now you got one.

• 1:33:55Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:33:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:56Speaker 02

  Wow. Yeah, that's, and I've been real curious about this. And you helped design this.

• 1:34:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, that's a good knife. I mean, I just like, I don't like too big of knives because I like getting in there and get, you know, to get the tendons sometimes in between the ribs if you, if you're. Whacking away on stuff sometimes.

• 1:34:14Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:34:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:15Cameron Hanes?

  It does, it doesn't, I mean, it's, I hope you like it, but this.

• 1:34:19Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 1:34:20Cameron Hanes?

  It's not as meaningful as this in my eyes, but.

• 1:34:23Speaker 02

  This is awesome.

• 1:34:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  No, thank you.

• 1:34:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no problem, no problem. Um, yeah.

• 1:34:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:29Cameron Hanes?

  So what questions we got, boys?

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Okay, well, you may have heard we have kind of a new section or a new segment and it's called marry kill.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  So just so we don't get the weird bestiality people in here for filming. Fuck, marry, kill brown bears, mountain lions or tigers?

• 1:34:52Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  Wow. Brown bears, mountain lions, tigers, marry kill.

• 1:34:58Cameron Hanes?

  For photos.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:00Cameron Hanes?

  Or video.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:02Speaker 02

  Oh, dude.

• 1:35:06Speaker 02

  I'm not, I, I always joked back in the day, like mountain lions are my favorite animal. Um, and I always thought a bruiser heard that he'd be really hurt.

• 1:35:16Speaker 02

  But they are, they've always, so I guess that's marry a mountain lion.

• 1:35:20Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  Fuck them bruisely and, and kill a pride tiger. Cause tigers are, you know, I'm a North America guy.

• 1:35:26Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  I love tigers. I mean, I've spent a lot of time with tigers recently.

• 1:35:31Cameron Hanes?

  Have you?

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's so, I mean, in an area.

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  You can go see tigers, you can go sign up and go drive around with a bunch of your friends that you've never met in your life in India and, you know, and go on safari.

• 1:35:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:44Speaker 02

  But I learned in Southern Nepal, there's an area that's very well, has a lot of tigers. Um, but they kill a lot of people. There are 63 people have been killed in this little area in the last three years. Yeah.

• 1:35:56Cameron Hanes?

  Good hunting.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  And, uh, but it's one of the only places on the planet that you can track tigers on foot.

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  And so I've been going there the last three years, um, tracking tigers on foot.

• 1:36:11Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:36:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:12Cameron Hanes?

  Like, how long would it, would a track go before you catch up with the tiger?

• 1:36:17Speaker 02

  It gets back to what, so when I'm there on the ground, learning how to track tigers, I mean, obviously going like a, on a river bed and you can fall into the sand. But how the natives, people there track tigers about listening in the forest. So, you know, there's the orchestra of all the animals. I mean, you go there and it's like, it's like, it's a jungle. It's a dry jungle. So it's just so many birds and monkeys and deer. And there's so much noise, but they are so in tune that you literally can go, close your eyes like this and you just listen and all of a sudden you're like,

• 1:36:47Speaker 02

  amongst that orchestra, if you can imagine the orchestra's playing and then there's a flute over here that's out of tune. And you hear it. It's that thing saying tiger. And then you just close your eyes and I hear, and you hear the trumpet over here that hits the rear note and you're like, oh, so the tiger's moving like this. And then you just, you just gauge the distance and you're like, okay, 200 yards right there in the thick trees, there's a tiger moving right to left. And you go over there to the tiger. And so being there over and over and over again, you start to get tuned into this. And so you just go there and start listening. So, again, I opened up a can of worms here. I go there and you can't help when you're there to meet people who've been affected by tigers.

• 1:37:28Speaker 02

  Every single person you meet, like they've been chased by a tiger, their brother's been killed and eaten by a tiger in front of them. Their neighbor was killed by a tiger yesterday. It's such a part of their lives, but it's, the habitats are so small. Tiger population, the growing, human population growing, the overlap is just crazy. But the people there, they are people of the forest. They love the forest. And they have to go to the forest to survive. They also know that if the tiger's not in the forest, the forest doesn't survive anymore. So they can't just go kill the tigers. Right. So they're always trying to figure out a way to live. And you go there and I went to this village, kind of this little town square and these ladies that have to go in the forest and collect berries and grass the next day, had just pulled their two friends out two weeks before.

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  And they're terrified that tiger's still in the, in the forest. And so they're begging me, they think, you know, you come over there, a white guy from the United States, you're going to have some answer for them. Um, and they're just begging you, what can you do? What can you do? And I'm driving home that night. And I'm thinking about how we track tigers and I'm thinking about all this stuff going on with AI. And I don't know if you ever use the Merlin app on your phone, you should check that out. But the Merlin app is this AI app, if you just literally let it listen to the forest. It recognizes the sounds of certain bird calls. And it'll say, oh, Robin or Blue Jay or whatever. It knows the sound and it tells what you're hearing. So I thought in this moment, what if we can figure out a way that we put listening devices in the areas that these people go?

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  That listens to the forest and when they hear those alarm calls. Somehow it notifies that there's a tiger in the area and you can let those people know there's tiger in this section today. So today in B three, don't go there because all the birds and monkeys and the deer are going tiger, tiger, tiger. Right? So I worked with this group over in the UK who are these bioacoustic. Experts and they developed, we've been developing these listening devices. That basically tell where the tigers are around these communities. And then the ranger will go to them and say, okay, today, don't go in this section. And it's, it's seemingly working, but it all boils down to. That primitive language that we all once knew, listening to the forest.

• 1:39:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a long, that's.

• 1:39:39Cameron Hanes?

  Wow. And now you got an amber alert for tigers.

• 1:39:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're just, we're not completely there yet. We're almost there, but I've been going back there and tracking tigers and, and building on this, this. Ancient language slash hybrid of AI. Again. These seem like they would be contradictory.

• 1:39:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:55Speaker 02

  But this is where we're going in the world right now. It's like, you gotta, we just gotta figure out a way to make it work.

• 1:40:00Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that's, yeah, that's incredible. It's a. You kind of screwing the tigers though, because now what are they, they're supposed to kill people to eat them.

• 1:40:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I mean, that's, it's, it's in the end, it's like. It's, it's the pendulum swing and the tiger population's going up. If there's not enough deer and there's not enough everything else for the meat, then they're going to starve and they're going to die.

• 1:40:18Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:40:19Speaker 02

  But they don't want to kill them. It's crazy. It's a, they, I, I met with this guy.

• 1:40:26Speaker 02

  At the spot, his wife was killed just a few days before and we literally went over to the spot. There's fresh tiger tracks on the ground. There's blood on the ground. Her earring was there. And you can see where she was drug off.

• 1:40:36Cameron Hanes?

  And he still didn't want to kill the tiger.

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  No, I asked him. I said, that's what I said to him. I go, are you mad at the tiger? And he says, no, that he says, we are people of the forest. Sometimes we go to the forest and we get food to eat and sometimes we go to the forest and we are eaten. And that's the way of the forest.

• 1:40:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:51Speaker 02

  And it was such a shocking thing because and to imagine in the United States today, if there were sixty three people killed by any animal in three years, we would nuke it.

• 1:41:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:41:00Speaker 02

  They wouldn't be one of those things around anymore. But they they realize the importance of nature being intact so much to their own well being that they're willing to be part of nature.

• 1:41:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:13Speaker 02

  And there's something, it's so beautiful.

• 1:41:15Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, I love that.

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:16Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I've said that about I mean, was smart or stupid, whatever. But I usually don't, I don't take a firearm with me when I'm hunting bear, grizzly, brown bear, black. It doesn't matter. I'm I'm trying to kill it. If I die in return, this is the way it goes. So I kind of

• 1:41:36Speaker 02

  Yikes.

• 1:41:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I kind, I don't know if that's real or not, but that's what I tell myself in my head. Maybe in that moment I'd be like, fuck, could I have a gun? Anybody got a gun? But I can identify with with kind of what you're saying about what the villagers over there think.

• 1:41:52Speaker 02

  You don't carry bears for it? Man, I'd at least do that.

• 1:41:55Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:41:56Speaker 02

  Now you're starting to take tip into that Timothy Treadwell.

• 1:41:58Cameron Hanes?

  I know, I know. Now it sounds a little crazier, but in my head it makes sense.

• 1:42:03Speaker 02

  I mean, I'll tell you, because a bit injured bear.

• 1:42:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. I understand.

• 1:42:07Speaker 02

  It makes your shot placement probably, you're getting real focused there.

• 1:42:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a, I don't know. That's just how I look at it. Um, what was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. So your tiger story reminded me of, did you ever know Bart Shiler? You ever heard that name?

• 1:42:22Speaker 02

  I've heard the name.

• 1:42:23Cameron Hanes?

  So Roy, my buddy from Alaska, Foster's Taxidermy, great. I've had him, they mounted like my, the ram I killed up in Alaska, but a great people. Roy would always go to Foster's Taxidermy and hang out and Bart Shiler worked there. So Roy would tell me, hey, there's this guy Bart Shiler. He's like, he's a freak. He's a, he's the probably best hunter, toughest guy I know, this, that. Nobody really knew him. But I think he was from Montana originally. It's either him or the, or the guys that hunted with, that he hunted with. Like, there's a book called Silvertip,

• 1:43:03Cameron Hanes?

  Paul Schaefer. He's from, I know he's from Montana. But anyway, Bart, he was always on Kodiak, hunted up there. I think he, I don't know if he killed a ram, but he, he made his own bow, made his own heads, went doll sheep hunting. I'm pretty sure he killed one, but can't remember how the story goes now. But he also went down and did, and studied tigers. So that's why it reminded me of that. It's just like your guys' stories are kind of overlapping in, in that regard. But he loved tigers also did, you know, I think radio collar type things. And he, look him up, but there's, there's an article in Outdoor Life. I remember I sent this to Rogan because I talked

• 1:43:45Cameron Hanes?

  about him on Rogan before, but it's called The Last Wild Man. It's an old article. You could look up Bart Shiler.

• 1:43:51Speaker 02

  Oh, I definitely, yeah, okay. This is, I know the story.

• 1:43:53Cameron Hanes?

  Total stud.

• 1:43:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, like lived an enchanted life.

• 1:43:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you'd love it. He, he got killed. I think he was, I mean, mostly he spent enough time out doing stuff like this, whatever. It's, you know, risky. But he got killed in Canada. They say he was hunting moose and a grizzly killed him and ate him is what they figure. You know, they just, I don't think they ever really found the body. But, yeah, look that up. But your, your story's kind of parallel his in, in some respects. But I just, I just love people like that, like you, like that are so immersed in the mountains and, and learning and I don't know.

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  There's so many, as you know this, man, and there's so many people that are out there doing stuff that are way cooler than what I'm doing. They just don't have TV shows. They're just like, I mean, like, you know, like Tyler John or something. We talked about him earlier, like, that dude. He's such a good hunter and stuff. You never hear about him, you know, there's like he gets after that guy's out there every day.

• 1:44:52Cameron Hanes?

  I know. Did he, was he in that film? Was it the Hundred Rams?

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:56Cameron Hanes?

  Was that his?

• 1:44:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was his.

• 1:44:57Cameron Hanes?

  Cause he, didn't he guide that guy to his, or what was that story?

• 1:45:00Speaker 02

  So his mentor, Lee Hart.

• 1:45:03Cameron Hanes?

  That's what it was.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 02

  It was on, was this by chance was going to be his hundredth ram that he ever guided? And Tyler drew that tag.

• 1:45:11Cameron Hanes?

  That's what it was. Yeah.

• 1:45:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. What a, was a very heartfelt, awesome story. Yeah.

• 1:45:15Cameron Hanes?

  For sure. No, I, I, I think I met Tyler. It had to be in Kodiak. I was, Cole Kramer was there.

• 1:45:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:24Cameron Hanes?

  And we went to somebody's house there on Kodiak and watched like films, hunting movies.

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:30Cameron Hanes?

  Pretty fun, but pretty sure Tyler was there. Um, yeah. What else we got?

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  As someone who spends a ton of time in the woods, tracking animals, does Bigfoot exist?

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  Oh man, I love this question. Dude, this is, this is leading me to a big thing here. This is a big secret too.

• 1:45:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  I get that question a lot, I'm sure. Now, you know, I've yet to see any evidence of Bigfoot. However,

• 1:46:04Speaker 02

  I haven't actually properly went out hunted Bigfoot. I haven't actually went out and tracked Bigfoot. So to say that without a doubt, which I'm pretty much leaning towards, that there's no Bigfoot. Yeah. But you know, there was a time, there's this animal called the Okapi. And it lives in the Congo River Basin. And it, and it's an animal you find in the zoo now. It kind of looks like a hybrid between a zebra and a giraffe. But 1950, there was this animal that lived in the jungle that looked like a hybrid between a giraffe and a, and a zebra, and it was crazy and around where everybody thought it was a crypto. Everybody thought it was as crazy as a Bigfoot.

• 1:46:45Speaker 02

  And it didn't exist in science. And you hear about this story and it's like, and then all of a sudden, some scientists went out there and there really was one.

• 1:46:52Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:46:52Speaker 02

  And it was a massive animal that was under the radar in this crazy place. So when you hear stories like that, it's like, so there is a chance, right? There's that one million chance.

• 1:47:01Cameron Hanes?

  Tell me there's a chance.

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  So this might want to put this on, on record or I don't care, on rec, off record, but so I've had enough people come to me and say, Is there a Bigfoot? Do you think there's a Bigfoot? And there's a lot of people that believe that there is, right? And there's some people with a lot of money who want to believe there is or isn't, wants, want to know.

• 1:47:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  And every Bigfoot show that's ever been out there is just like some hillbillies out there going whoop, whoop, here, come here, Bigfoot, Bigfoot, you know, whatever. It's like, okay. If you're gonna look for Bigfoot, let's get serious about it, right? And so some guy reached out to me, goes, what would serious look like? And I said, I'd put together the best team on the planet. We'd get military grade technology and we would go to these hotspots that when we would go and we would, and I, and I, I wanted to make a film about it or a show about it called Killing Bigfoot. And it, and the idea is kind of a, you know, double meaning. It's that we're in order to make fact or fiction of Bigfoot. We're probably have to bring a body back.

• 1:48:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, or kill the myth.

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  Or kill the myth.

• 1:48:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I wanted to go full tilt with this. And I, and I said, let's go. Well, cause in the tracks of Bigfoot, we're gonna find some cool shit. If we are going hard looking for Bigfoot, we're gonna find something. We're gonna probably find a Wolverine in a place that never been found before.

• 1:48:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:17Speaker 02

  You know, we're gonna see the heat signature in a cave and go in there thinking it's might be Bigfoot, but we're gonna find some other crazy shit. How cool would that be?

• 1:48:24Cameron Hanes?

  Be great.

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I, I had this idea and I kicked it around and I have a buddy in Montana named Rob O'Neil. Do you know who Rob O'Neil is?

• 1:48:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Dude, the SEAL?

• 1:48:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:35Speaker 02

  So Rob O'Neil is like, dude, I want in on this. So then I thought, okay, talking about a TV show hook, the guy who shot Osama bin Laden.

• 1:48:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:45Speaker 02

  Wants to go find Bigfoot.

• 1:48:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, there you go.

• 1:48:47Speaker 02

  So now here's, here's the pitch.

• 1:48:50Speaker 02

  Rob O'Neil, Casey Anderson, Cam Haynes.

• 1:48:53Cameron Hanes?

  Well, there you go.

• 1:48:54Speaker 02

  I'm not shitting you.

• 1:48:54Cameron Hanes?

  I love it. Well, yeah, cause you, you figure if the guy who killed bin Laden is involved, pretty good killing like high, high value targets.

• 1:49:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:49:04Cameron Hanes?

  Right? So Bigfoot's right in there.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:49:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, we're kind of in, and also if you think about it too, well, Rogan went, he went out one time with, was it Lee Strobel or Lee?

• 1:49:16Speaker 02

  Shroud.

• 1:49:16Cameron Hanes?

  Shroud, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what it was. And I think he actually did, cause I remember the first time we were in bear camp up in Alberta, it's like 2014. He asked me that, he goes, you think there's, there's Bigfoot? And I was just like, no. And we were watching the show and it was like the show that you talked about like this. It was not the, I think he went with them, but anyway, point is Joe likes to believe in stuff, like alien, you know, always have this hope that there's something cool out there, right? But uh, if you think about it, this is sort of Bigfoot country, maybe up more north, Washington. But it's like in some of those in the big timber, deep in the mountains where maybe satellites and trail cameras and all this wouldn't, wouldn't work that well. Who knows what the hell's out there?

• 1:50:01Speaker 02

  There's something out there.

• 1:50:02Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, who knows?

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's something out there. I mean, people are seeing something.

• 1:50:06Cameron Hanes?

  I doubt with, with all the trail cameras people, people have, if it was around where people hunt, you'd, we would know.

• 1:50:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:13Cameron Hanes?

  But fun to think about.

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  And there's something out there. I, I did went to the Himalayas and talked to some people who've seen Yetis. And I met a guy who was 75 years old, a yak, a yak farmer. He had seen three Yetis. And when you talk to this guy has no stakes in the game. He's not selling. I saw Bigfoot t-shirts. This is an old dude who saw something, right? Probably not a Yeti, probably a bear, probably some other weird animal. But he saw something and so he believed it was a Yeti. And I think that's just exactly right. In the pursuit of, of Bigfoot, quote unquote, it's, it's not out there. But if you went and dug around in these deep forests where they, it could exist.

• 1:50:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:51Speaker 02

  You're gonna find something.

• 1:50:52Cameron Hanes?

  Right. And that would be that, as I mentioned earlier, exploring is a big part of hunting.

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  Yep. And then you watch all these hillbilly shows. It's like, you know, they see a heat signature with their, in the distance and they all run away from it. And this is, you know, it's, Rob, Cam and Casey aren't running. We're going, we're going to it, right? And we're going to shake it off the list.

• 1:51:11Cameron Hanes?

  Be pretty sick.

• 1:51:12Speaker 02

  Hell yeah. I'm not kidding you, dude. This, this is, to me, it's like such.

• 1:51:15Cameron Hanes?

  You could sell that. Definitely sell that. That's an easy one. That, that would be, I mean, for the record, I don't believe in Bigfoot, but who knows what we'd find?

• 1:51:25Speaker 02

  Yep. You'd hunt him.

• 1:51:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  Okay. So this next one, Cam has talked about in his backcountry bow hunting book, how at first, you know, the woods, when you're alone are intimidating. I talked about some times where I thought I was going crazy, sleeping in my tent alone. I'm, I'm assuming, you know, you had a similar experience. So how do you kind of combat that intimidation or fear when you're alone in the woods?

• 1:51:49Speaker 02

  You, you have to make uncomfortable home.

• 1:51:53Speaker 02

  Um, that's it, man. I think that's it's it's important for everything. I I think about this all the time. If you can make uncomfortable home, then you're just home. Um, and I think the more time you spend out there, the more reps you spend out there, you start to make it home. And that's that's like the simple way I can put it, you know, I think that and I spent a lot of night, a lot of nights in a tent. Um, and sooner or later, man, I sleep better in a tent than I do in town. I sleep better in a tent than I did last night and I hear the highway go by. Um, and it's like, you know, for silence, sometimes that's scary for people, but silence to me is home. Right?

• 1:52:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:31Speaker 02

  And I think uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable more days than I'm comfortable. So it's become a home. So when you get out there, it's not a place that's it's not a place that I'm not used to. It's a place that I recognize as home.

• 1:52:45Cameron Hanes?

  I like that. It's a, you know, you you hear people talk a lot about, uh, I've seen this say this about Goggins, because what you said just reminded me of Goggins. He'll say like, make uncomfortable, uncomfortable, or something like that, um, which is kind of what you're saying. But, um,

• 1:53:02Cameron Hanes?

  I've heard people say like about Goggins, are you ever happy? And it's like, I don't know what people mean by happy, right? Because to me, happy is what most people would say is suffering. That's what I'm happy. I'm not happy sitting on the couch, watching TV, eating popcorn. I do it. It's not like what I I'm happy when I'm getting in miles where I'm hunting or when I'm suffering. So it's just like, what is happy? Who?

• 1:53:32Speaker 02

  It's all relative, right?

• 1:53:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's like, you're you're happy probably isn't my happy. My happy probably isn't yours. So it's like, like, people will say, don't you ever want to be happy? Yeah, I am when I'm miserable.

• 1:53:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I get it. And you know what? You can, I have three kids. And they're six, four, and two.

• 1:53:50Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:53:50Speaker 02

  So I was a little late to the game.

• 1:53:52Cameron Hanes?

  Good spacing, though.

• 1:53:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I was, I'm regular. That's about as often as I get it. Um,

• 1:54:00Speaker 02

  the, uh,

• 1:54:01Cameron Hanes?

  Hopefully, your wife doesn't listen.

• 1:54:03Speaker 02

  She probably will.

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  But you teach comfort to your children. And you know, if you go outside and go, oh, it's cold out here. It's raining. Let's come inside. Children don't know that they they learn that from mom and dad. Right. And my little girl is six, who got the adventure soul. Man, I never taught her that. And her happiness is uncomfortable, too. And it's, one day, we're walking the ridge. It's early spring, the wind's blowing like thirty miles an hour. It's just cold. And I look back, and here's this little, at the time, four year old, trudging up the mountain. And I remember, I'm uncomfortable in the moment. I think, God, she's got to be uncomfortable. And I say, are you okay? And she looks at me, Dad, and she goes, Dad, the wind makes my blood feel wild.

• 1:54:47Speaker 02

  And I just remember when she said that, I just thought, how I react right now. And I just say, hell, yeah, let's go. Right. And it's just like, it is, it's a state of mind. Happiness is a state of mind, comfort's a state of mind. And if you can marry the two, if you can find happiness and comfort, then you can be a happy dude, a lot. Yeah. Oh, happiness and discomfort. And discomfort.

• 1:55:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's, that's way. Yeah, because I don't comfort. Yeah, it's a fleeting, who knows what it really means. I know what it means to me, being comfortable, and it wouldn't. But yeah, it's to your point. Yeah, if you can make uncomfortable happy. Yeah. Yeah. It's no different than make pain your friend, and you're never alone. Right? Yeah, it's similar to that. Totally. No, I mean, if you can, if you're doing what we do, and you go out in the wild, and you're always uncomfortable, and you're, you're not at home, it's gonna be so hard. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, and I'm sure you've seen as much as I have, but most people get out there. And it's not like a long hunt. It's not like weeks. It's like hours, and they're ready

• 1:55:52Cameron Hanes?

  to go. It's like, yeah, they are, I don't know what they expected, but, or they weren't ready for what it is, and they're ready to go. They expect the edited version that they saw on TV. Right. Yeah. Yeah. On outdoor channel, this is a twenty two minute show. Yeah.

• 1:56:07Speaker 02

  No, it's so true. And it makes or breaks people. And I'll tell you what, thank goodness, man.

• 1:56:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. I like that. I want it to be uncomfortable out there, because it keeps the people away. Me, too. Me, too. Okay. What else you guys got?

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  Next to you, I did a little preparation, and of course, texted Eli. So, oh, no. If some of these are no goes, you don't have to answer them.

• 1:56:30Cameron Hanes?

  We can edit it.

• 1:56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, this one should be though. I, uh, I hear you're, you're possibly a vampire. You got your blood sucked by vampire bat.

• 1:56:39Speaker 02

  I did, yeah. Dude, this is a, Eli gave you that one?

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:43Speaker 02

  Attaboy, Eli.

• 1:56:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is a, this is one of my favorite stories. So in a, in a southern Mexico, on the Guatemalan border, they have a lot of vampire bats.

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:56:55Speaker 02

  And in the area, due to habitat change, a lot of mowing down the jungle and building cattle ranches, the bats have learned to go to the cows. I mean, what a great source of blood, right? So if you don't understand how that vampire bat works, I'll just tell you. So vampire bat will find like a cow. And they'll literally, if a cow's laying in a pasture, it'll actually land on the ground and kind of crawl up and sneak up on it. Cause it doesn't want its host to be afraid.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:23Speaker 02

  And then crawls up on it and then they bite and they have this kind of anticoagulant antiseptic saliva.

• 1:57:29Cameron Hanes?

  They don't feel it.

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  They don't feel it. And then it's just kind of leaks and then they lap it up, right? So what's been happening in that area is that some of the ranch hands and stuff are out sleeping in their hammocks. And a bat will see them and go over and jump on them and bite them. So I, this area specifically, I'd heard about this, so I wanted to go document it.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:57:48Speaker 02

  So I go there and it's like one ranch guy's telling me about how like three of his ranch hands in the last couple of weeks have been hit by it. So we set it up and I wanted to do it. Everybody, my producer, everybody didn't want to do it. Cause it sounded crazy, but then at the same time, same time, they're like, this is such a good hook. But I just wanted to get down into my underwear, lay on a hammock in the same spot these guys have been sleeping and see if a bat will come near me. So we did that. So time lapses on me and whatever. And I laid there and laid there. I was probably laying there for like five hours.

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:58:17Speaker 02

  I'm like, this is not gonna happen. So I'm dozing off and I hear one of the guys, he goes, cause he's got the thermal camera, cause it's all dark.

• 1:58:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:58:26Speaker 02

  There's a bat on the hammock.

• 1:58:30Speaker 02

  And sure shit, man. A bat lands on the hammock because it's sitting there and just assessing me for probably half an hour. And then it just creeps down the hammock, comes over to my calf and then sticks its face up against my calf. And it sits there probably for 10 minutes. It's, I could feel it just touching my leg.

• 1:58:46Cameron Hanes?

  Ooh.

• 1:58:47Speaker 02

  And then all of a sudden it just fricking bites. And then trust me, man, those cows have, are tougher than I am. Cause it hurt, but I knew I just, I couldn't. I just let it bite me and it sat there and licked my blood.

• 1:58:57Cameron Hanes?

  What's an antiseptic?

• 1:58:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, didn't feel that. Yeah.

• 1:59:00Cameron Hanes?

  Or anesthesia, I guess is what it'd be. Is that what it is? What's antiseptic?

• 1:59:05Speaker 01

  Antiseptic's like a-

• 1:59:06Cameron Hanes?

  Mouthwash?

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, or like wound cleaner.

• 1:59:09Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:59:10Speaker 02

  Right. What's, what's, what's the other word? Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think. But it licked my blood and then flew away. Um, so that I had, I've had my rabies vaccinations.

• 1:59:18Cameron Hanes?

  Did, did you get, was that on video?

• 1:59:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:59:21Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:59:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's on video. So I think I'm the only person's ever been documented being bit by a vampire bat. But then I, after I, that happened and that show came out, it was on, it was a travel channel series a while ago. I had all these like weirdos, man, like who saw that.

• 1:59:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:37Speaker 02

  That were like, probably like closet vampire people who, I was like suddenly their god. Like they might, and I always joked I should just like, you know, every time I see the light, I should go, ah.

• 1:59:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:48Speaker 02

  But they, they, they really thought that I was a vampire now.

• 1:59:51Cameron Hanes?

  Were you just in a, what was that movie that started with an N about vampires? Was that you?

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, Nosferatu.

• 1:59:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:59Speaker 02

  No, Nosferatu, yeah.

• 2:00:00Cameron Hanes?

  Have you seen that?

• 2:00:01Speaker 02

  I have not, but I know the character. Yeah.

• 2:00:03Cameron Hanes?

  Maybe it's you.

• 2:00:04Speaker 02

  It could be.

• 2:00:06Cameron Hanes?

  That's a good story.

• 2:00:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's shocking.

• 2:00:09Cameron Hanes?

  That's cool.

• 2:00:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:10Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, and you're fine?

• 2:00:11Speaker 02

  I was fine. I had to go get a, like a rabies booster the next day and they had to check me out, but if you get bit by a bat, you should.

• 2:00:17Cameron Hanes?

  I would say so.

• 2:00:18Speaker 02

  Some bad things can happen if you don't pay attention to it.

• 2:00:20Cameron Hanes?

  They look intense, just looking at them.

• 2:00:22Speaker 02

  They're one of the coolest animals. Again, one of those animals that are missed, like people just think bad things about them, but they're, if we didn't have them, like down in, like Texas, down in Austin.

• 2:00:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:32Speaker 02

  There's 12 million bats that live under that bridge.

• 2:00:34Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:00:35Speaker 02

  They eat one ton, 100 tons of bugs every night.

• 2:00:39Cameron Hanes?

  Whoa.

• 2:00:40Speaker 02

  So if that bridge fell in and those bats died.

• 2:00:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  Farmers are in trouble. So it's amazing. It's amazing.

• 2:00:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:47Cameron Hanes?

  It's a it all, you know, we talked about you can't can't overthink or outwit or fix God's plan.

• 2:00:55Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 2:00:55Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I mean, so it's got to figure it out. What else we got?

• 2:00:59Speaker 02

  This this scares me a little bit.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  Uh, so yeah, I've I've heard that you had heart surgery.

• 2:01:07Speaker 02

  I did.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  Kind of want to hear about that journey, how that impacted your life.

• 2:01:11Speaker 02

  Oh, man. So I, yeah, five years ago, I mean, heart surgery is a bit of a, I mean, this is heart surgery. Five years ago, I mean, I'm a fit guy, running around the woods. I was out digging, making a trail along a pond of our little girl, and I just started feeling like shit. And I'm going to call my wife over and said, hey, I don't feel very good. And she's like, well, you're probably dehydrated or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, I'm dehydrated. So I'm drinking some water and then cut to like an 15, 20 minutes later, I'm like feeling like I've never felt before. I'm like fatigued and I just don't, yeah, I don't know what's going on. But I'm being that being a guy, like I'm going to the hospital. I live about a half hour from the hospital. Probably a little bit more.

• 2:01:55Speaker 02

  And my little girl came over to me and said, Daddy, I hope you're okay. And she hugged me and looked me in the eyes. I remember looking at her going, shit, I better do something here. I don't, you know, I'm not in this living for me anymore.

• 2:02:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:04Speaker 02

  So I went to the hospital and turns out

• 2:02:08Speaker 02

  I have this thing, I had this thing going on that was called supraventricular tachycardia. So basically my lower part of my heart was like going like this and my top part was trying to beat normally.

• 2:02:20Speaker 02

  And they had to shock me my heart back. In fact, the doctor said, why, there's no reason why you should be alive. Having going through this for as long as you did.

• 2:02:29Cameron Hanes?

  Whoa.

• 2:02:30Speaker 02

  So they literally had to take the paddles to me and shock me my heart back. So then I went in and they, you know, I'm like, what? I want to know what what's doing this, right?

• 2:02:39Cameron Hanes?

  Were you awake when they shocked you?

• 2:02:40Speaker 02

  No, I was on ketamine, which is even weirder, actually.

• 2:02:43Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha.

• 2:02:44Speaker 02

  I was like, and this is crazy highness, getting shocked at the same time. But I want to know what the hell is going on.

• 2:02:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:50Speaker 02

  You know, and so I remember the doctor gave me this list. He's like, have you have you ever been bitten by a venomous snake, stung by a scorpion? Did cocaine, uh, drank too much, uh, eat too, drink too many rock stars or whatever. Literally the whole list I could have went like, yeah.

• 2:03:05Cameron Hanes?

  Was there all of the above?

• 2:03:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So they're like, we're never going to know why this happened, but it did. So they can go in there, which is cool about the electrical unit of the heart. Um, they can go in there and find like where the short circuit is and they run this thing up through your artery and just go in there and like saw it like burn it.

• 2:03:23Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:03:23Speaker 02

  Like find the little short circuit and burn it.

• 2:03:25Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 2:03:26Speaker 02

  So cut to, um, they did that. Um, and my heart's fine. I mean, the thing is, is like, when you're an athlete, I'm not consider myself pretty athletic all my life. And then something like that happens to you randomly.

• 2:03:38Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:03:38Speaker 02

  It's humbling.

• 2:03:39Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:03:40Speaker 02

  So I did, it was my midlife crisis because the next thing I decided that I was going to do after that, start running ultras.

• 2:03:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 2:03:47Speaker 02

  And that's what I did.

• 2:03:47Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 2:03:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's what I've been doing since then.

• 2:03:50Cameron Hanes?

  I didn't know you, you did ultras.

• 2:03:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:03:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, cool.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that's why I was telling James, I'm like, what the fuck? We're not doing run, run lift shoot?

• 2:03:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:58Speaker 02

  Did I do all those every day?

• 2:04:01Cameron Hanes?

  That's awesome.

• 2:04:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I'm sorry. That was my midlife crisis. So I've been running 50 Ks, um, kind of embracing it. My, and my big goal, which I know is something you did, kind of full circle, Montana backyard, Native American connection. I'm going to, my goal right now is to run the crazy mountain 100.

• 2:04:17Cameron Hanes?

  Those mountains are rough. Yeah.

• 2:04:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're, they're a good mountain.

• 2:04:20Cameron Hanes?

  But it would be, that would be epic.

• 2:04:23Speaker 02

  That's my goal.

• 2:04:23Cameron Hanes?

  You could do it.

• 2:04:24Speaker 02

  I'm trying. I mean, I'm running right now. I'm doing 50 miles a day or a week, not a day, 50 miles a day. I could do it. Yeah.

• 2:04:30Cameron Hanes?

  50 miles.

• 2:04:30Speaker 02

  50 miles a week right now, but I'm, you know, no cocodonia, cocodona.

• 2:04:34Cameron Hanes?

  I know. I wish I wasn't doing that either. Hopefully I get hurt. No, no crazy mountain. Uh, yeah. God, those mountains are awesome. I love that.

• 2:04:46Speaker 02

  They're haunting, man. They're haunting mountains. They are, they are something about them. They're just like, they're spiritual.

• 2:04:51Cameron Hanes?

  I'd never been in there before, but saw plenty during that race.

• 2:04:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I gotta do it. It's kind of my goal. I'm, I'm turning 50. I'm not gonna do it this year. I'm trying my goals next year. I'm gonna chalk up some 50 miler's this.

• 2:05:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's good. I mean,

• 2:05:08Speaker 02

  I might go run a flatter 100 somewhere.

• 2:05:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, that's what I was trying to talk James into doing. He's talking about doing 100K and I'm like, 100 miles.

• 2:05:18Speaker 02

  How many 50Ks have you done, James?

• 2:05:19Speaker 01

  One.

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:05:20Speaker 01

  And no marathons.

• 2:05:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I skipped marathons too.

• 2:05:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I mean, he, you won that 50K though, didn't you?

• 2:05:27Speaker 01

  For my division, yeah.

• 2:05:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:29Speaker 02

  Shit.

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  Non-binary.

• 2:05:33Speaker 02

  He was the only one.

• 2:05:37Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah.

• 2:05:38Speaker 02

  But I love it. I mean, I think the one thing I wish I'd have got into it earlier in my life instead of waiting till this long, but it's such a good thing for what we do.

• 2:05:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:47Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? It's just like knowing that you can move long distances across the landscape in any given moment. Being fit like that, if you're gonna be following animals around, then you better be right with them.

• 2:05:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:56Speaker 02

  And I love, I, I was a sprinter. I'm like a football player, rugby player, kind of a guy, you know? And so running long distance was such a hard transition.

• 2:06:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:04Speaker 02

  But the hard thing, man, it was, was that thing. I'm like, you know, go out, run five. Okay, I'm running seven, run 10. I'm like running a mountain marathon for fun one day and I'm like, this is, I, I can do this, right? We just kind of get into it. And I'm, and again, you're kind of the same. People look at us to think you're sprinter, right? You're not a long distance guy.

• 2:06:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:22Speaker 02

  And you can, you can train your body to do anything.

• 2:06:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, definitely. No, it, it is a big advantage of the mountains. You know, you just make better decisions, you know? I mean, you don't take shortcuts. You're thinking clearer. You can focus on what you're there for instead of that you're tired or gassed or whatever else. So.

• 2:06:39Speaker 02

  I mean, I think that's one of the coolest things. I mean, you brought, you, you made bow hunting an ath- an athletic event in some level. Like you, you put that in perspective. It's just like, you know, if you're gonna be out there, you gotta train for it. And I've always kind of believed that. I mean, it's like what we do, there's no doubt the better shape that you're in, the better you're gonna perform.

• 2:06:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:58Speaker 02

  And performance is how you pay the bills and how you feed the family. And that's just, I mean, my guy, man, I make him train. He's out there running with me. He's lifting all the time. He's doing himself. And if you're not doing that, you're not hanging. I mean, Eli is buddy who's been with me. I mean, you gotta be fit when you're out there, because if you're not fit, you're a liability.

• 2:07:14Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:07:15Speaker 02

  And if you're a liability, man, you're just, you're off the team.

• 2:07:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:17Speaker 02

  You're out of the pack.

• 2:07:18Cameron Hanes?

  It's too, and trying to make a living doing this, it's like, it's competitive. You know, I mean, the more you can get, the better content you can get, the more you're out there, the more reps you're introducing to yourself or your camera, whatever else. Yeah, the better quality of product you're gonna have. So yeah, it's, uh, people wanna discount it and say, you don't, oh, well, you don't need to. Look at this guy, he does all this and he's not in shape. It's just like, you're focusing on the wrong stuff.

• 2:07:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, you need to.

• 2:07:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:07:47Speaker 01

  Last Eli question. He just said, ask about the mountain lion and wolf attacks at the wildlife ranch.

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are good ones. I mean, again, part of the, uh, that winning and losing and learning from mistakes. So, you know, again, working in some captive wildlife places, I've got scars all over my body, um, from making mistakes. And, um, I was attacked by a mountain lion, I was attacked by a pack of wolves at a, at a place.

• 2:08:13Cameron Hanes?

  Whoa.

• 2:08:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and by myself both times.

• 2:08:18Speaker 02

  Yes, in a mountain lion one, it wasn't technically by myself, but it was one on one. We, I had this cat I had to help raise. And it turned into like a hundred and forty pound male and we were doing.

• 2:08:29Cameron Hanes?

  It's a handful.

• 2:08:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. We were doing this thing with this artist, this artist was like, making this video where he was like sculpting clay of a mountain lion. And he wanted the mountain lion to kind of linger around the cliffs. So I was with this cat, and what I used to do with this guy is kind of play cat and mouse, like run around the cliffs and he would chase me and I would hide and he would stalk me. And we were playing this game, we did it all the time. Well, the shoot was over, the cat was sitting next to me, he was off his leash. And I kind of looked down at him and he just had this like, that crazy cat look in his eyes.

• 2:08:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:58Speaker 02

  And he jumped to try to bite me in the throat. And I caught him by the throat like this. And he took his claws, wrapped them up around me like a cat does, and just started pulling his mouth towards my throat. And I'm pushing as hard as I can and I'm losing that game. And I'm trying to bench press the power of this cat and I'm not doing a very good job. And the next thing this cat does is what they often do is bring its back claws up and try to gut me out.

• 2:09:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:25Speaker 02

  And I have this like Carhartt heavy denim coat on and he just starts ripping and shredding in front of it. But what happens in that moment is this game of leverage, right? He's feet her off the ground now. So now I've got leverage. So I take him, I just basically almost souffle him and just come around and slam him down on the ground. And when he hits the ground, he stops. And in that moment, I recognized a change in behavior that I wanted.

• 2:09:51Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:09:52Speaker 02

  And I knew I had to take over. So I just grabbed his leash, put it on his, around his neck and just started walking him. Just took control, right? Which trust me is very hard to do after something like that.

• 2:10:02Cameron Hanes?

  I bet.

• 2:10:03Speaker 02

  But I knew I had to and I walked him about a quarter mile down to this truck was waiting and loaded him up. Then I looked down and I just ripped here. I got across my back or my chest and my back and on my arm. And this one right here was this squirting blood and I wrapped that up and I had to go to the hospital.

• 2:10:19Speaker 02

  But yeah, I mean, it was one of those things like, again, wild animals, wild, no matter what, no matter what his life is. You can never forget that those animals have the instinct. I don't know why he decided he was gonna.

• 2:10:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, just triggered, something got triggered.

• 2:10:31Speaker 02

  Something triggered. And I learned a lot from it. I mean, it's just one of those things. It's just like you walk away and I look at my scars all the time. And I, I always tried to dig into why I have them and what, what mistakes were made? What could I have done different? How can I make sure that doesn't happen again? And in some way, I mean, to be honest, it's kind of cool. Look down and they have mountain lion scars.

• 2:10:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I, I was gonna say, I want, I want a few scars.

• 2:10:57Speaker 02

  I mean, I mean, you learn scars again and back. It's, it's, it's a, it's like a tapestry, man. You look at your body and you see all those scars and you're just like, it's part of who you are. It's part of your DNA. It's, it's who's made you. They're often mistakes. It's, it is those mistakes that define you. And in the wild. If you're lucky enough to walk away from one of those mistakes, you better fucking have learned from it.

• 2:11:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, you don't get too many of those chances. Sometimes just one. Um, so what about the wolves?

• 2:11:27Speaker 02

  Uh, wolf pack was in his big enclosure. Uh, I went in there. There was a couple of wolves in there that I'd raised and they were like my puppies. I was gonna gather them up. I went into the middle of the enclosure and I called one of them over and he came over to me and he was slinking over to me, kind of being submissive. And as soon as he came up to to me, he snarled at me. And I remember I stand up and I go, no, you know? And as soon as I did that, I get throttled from behind. And there's nine wolves in this enclosure and I'm by myself. And I, as soon as I get bit, I turn around to see who bit me. And as soon as I turn around, that wolf was starting to me, bit me from behind. So now, classic wolf thing. They they surround and try to invoke panic.

• 2:12:11Speaker 02

  And whatever wolf I'm not facing, and at that time, kicking and punching as hard as I can, the other ones are biting me from behind. So I, and they're pulling them. I also have car hearts on that day, car heart coveralls. And they're trying to pull me down to the ground and they're biting me in the back, the ham in the back of my butt. And I'm just, I'm just turning like a tornado, kicking and punching and screaming for help. And the more I'm panicking, the more that their eyes, they literally disdilate and their tails are going fast and they're just coming in and nailing me. The next thing I know, I find myself with my back against the fence. And I just do like a Fosbury flop. I just jump up over the top and just land on the ground. And they're all just right there at the fence, just all jacked up. And I look down and I have like daisy dukes on.

• 2:12:56Cameron Hanes?

  Man.

• 2:12:56Speaker 02

  And my legs are just bleeding. Drive myself down to the hospital. I pull up in front of the emergency room. I remember walking towards it. The reception nurse sees me walking with daisy dukes and bloody legs. And she comes out and goes, what happened? And I said, I just got attacked by a pack of wolves. And she just looked at me like I could see immediately she wanted to like go get the street jacket because I've lost my mind.

• 2:13:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:16Speaker 02

  Um, but then my doctor, he knew what I did for a living at the time and he knew that I probably did. And yeah, I had some real good scar on my calf and a couple of my hamstrings. But that was, that was, I was really young. I was like 19 when that happened. And that was one of those things where I was like, maybe I should be a lawyer.

• 2:13:34Cameron Hanes?

  Do something different. Yeah, that that would be, I don't know, that'd be pretty intense. A pack of wolves, because I just know how a dog, like when you're running and a dog comes out all aggressive. That's enough, you know?

• 2:13:48Speaker 02

  All the fundamental things, that's the thing about it, it's all the same. I mean, dogs have got all those instincts, you know, and how you react in that moment's everything.

• 2:13:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, what you said was no is exactly, I just did this like two days ago, this dog right over here came running out of the garage. They just got, or the owner just got home with it or was in the garage, whatever, but I was running by, I took it. I just, no, like that. It's just like, so that, that did work.

• 2:14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, holding your ground and being confident is more not aggressive, but confident.

• 2:14:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:20Speaker 02

  It works so much with animals, especially animals who are always trying to invoke chaos and invoke panic. And that's what how canines, they thrive off. That's how they win. A wolf pack, that's how they kick down elk. They create panic. It's how they kill bison. They create panic. As soon as you take the confidence and erase it from those animals, that they win. You see those big bull bison that hold their ground and say, come on, bring it in here, dude. They live.

• 2:14:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:45Speaker 02

  So you gotta be that bison.

• 2:14:46Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:14:47Speaker 02

  And then that's the same with a wolf pack. I mean, again, I learned so much. I've, I've not encountered their wolf packs being aggressive, but I've encountered, you know, other dogs, I've encountered bears, I've encountered mountain lions in the wild. And I've played the game with them. Mountain lions, definitely. You've got to, mountain lions, you show them one inch. You, it sounds ridiculous, but you know, they wild mountain lion encounters, I've had when they've been aggressive. You gotta go at them like you're gonna kill them. And just gotta be aggressive. Make, make them think that they're, they're potentially on the menu. And they'll, they'll run way like crazy.

• 2:15:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's good advice. I mean, tough to do.

• 2:15:20Speaker 02

  It's tough, but I think, what's your other option?

• 2:15:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:15:23Speaker 02

  Getting bit.

• 2:15:24Cameron Hanes?

  Doesn't sound that great either.

• 2:15:25Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:15:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's a, yeah, great advice. Is that, that's all you guys had? That's it. Yeah. I don't know, dude, this has been, I mean, this is kind of a long podcast, but so, such good stories. I love it.

• 2:15:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

• 2:15:40Cameron Hanes?

  We're, we're definitely gonna do a lift, run, shoot at some point. It's a

• 2:15:44Speaker 02

  Yes, please.

• 2:15:45Cameron Hanes?

  If I didn't have this fricking book thing, I'd, all I've been, well, not all I've been thinking about, because we've been having a good discussion, but this, these book signings are haunting me right now. It's just like, all I can think about is like, God, I just gotta fricking knock these things out. They were hassling about where I'm at with it, but uh, Once we get past this, yeah, we'll have, we'll have you come out, uh, get you dotted with the new bow, do a lift, run, shoot, and get you ready for Crazy Mountain. How does that sound?

• 2:16:12Speaker 02

  Let's do that. Awesome.

• 2:16:13Cameron Hanes?

  That sounds awesome. Well, thank you, brother.

• 2:16:14Speaker 02

  Thank you, sir, man. Appreciate it.

• 2:16:16Cameron Hanes?

  A great discussion. I knew it would be, and I think everybody's gonna love it. Um, check out, uh, what, God, no, I can't remember. Grizzly Guy?

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  At Grizzly Guy.

• 2:16:26Cameron Hanes?

  At Grizzly Guy, yeah.

• 2:16:27Speaker 02

  And Endless Venture YouTube. There's gonna be some great stuff coming out.

• 2:16:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and, uh, you heard all the stories, so, yeah, I shouldn't be surprised at how sick this stuff's gonna be, but Casey Anderson, thank you very much. I appreciate you.

• 2:16:38Speaker 02

  You're welcome.

• 2:16:39Cameron Hanes?

  All right. Keep hammering.