When Wedge Salad Becomes A Wedge Issue With Gail Simmons & Ayesha Nurdjaja

Is a wedge salad worth the effort of using a knife to eat it? Should you take home the unopened beer you brought to a dinner party? And does your produce really need to be washed?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  My whole extended family and I went to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina this past spring. And I gotta say, I came away feeling like, number one, this is a great family destination. Number two, this is a great place to come all year round. The mini golf alone is probably worth, it's like the mini golf capital of the country. They have the most incredible elaborate mini golf courses. They also have more than 80 championship, full-size golf courses, plus 60 miles of beautiful coastline, all-season sunshine. Of course, you can relax by the beach or the pool. There's also jet skiing, fishing charters, paddle boarding, and of course, food. Oh, man, did we eat well in Myrtle Beach. From fresh local seafood to craft burgers and craft beers to kebabs on the boardwalk. With more than 2,000 restaurants to choose from, from legendary no-frill seafood shacks

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  to chef-driven dining, Myrtle Beach has it all. Plus, live entertainment at the beach, there's always something epic going on. So, summer may be winding down, but in Myrtle Beach, you're gonna find the coastal vacation of your dreams all year long. Start planning your ultimate beach vacation at visitmyrtlebeach.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking.

• 1:23Dan Pashman?

  Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Sometimes, I will go to a place and I like nice champagne. And sometimes I'll bring only two bottles, because I don't know what the vibe is like. But I always have two more in the trunk, just in case you need it.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  I love you and you are gonna be my first guest that I might have.

• 1:59Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And today on the show, we are taking your calls and hot takes and settling your long-running food feuds. But I can't do big work like this on my own. Here to help me are two returning guests. First up, she's the owner of one of my very favorite restaurants in all of New York City, Shuka, here in New York, along with Shuquette, which has been on the New York Times 100 Best Restaurants in New York list multiple years in a row. You may have also seen her appearing as one of the titans on Food Network's Bobby's Triple Threat, and she's just out with a new cookbook, Mediterranean All the Way. Welcome, Ayesha Nargia.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:38Dan Pashman?

  And Gail Simmons, also joining me here in studio. You've certainly seen her as a judge on the iconic Emmy-winning TV series Top Chef, which is entering its 24th season. Congratulations, Gail.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 2:49Dan Pashman?

  Her last cookbook was nominated for an IACP Award for Best General Cookbook. And now, her third book, Guesting, is coming out soon and now available for preorder. Welcome, Gail Simmons.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 3:00Dan Pashman?

  So, in just a few minutes, as I said, we're gonna take on some listener questions and hot takes. We'll even have some live callers who have a long-running marital dispute. But first, let's just take a minute and chat about what's going on. Ayesha, you have your first cookbook out right now, Mediterranean All the Way.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:17Dan Pashman?

  I'm extremely excited, because now I have the recipe for all the dishes that I, I will still come to your restaurant to eat them. But there's the fettuccine salad, best salad in New York City.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:29Dan Pashman?

  I'm extremely excited to have that. There's dips, there's kebabs, there's salads, there's meats. There's also your labna. After I ate labna at Shuka, I couldn't eat labna anywhere else. Why? Why is your labna better?

• 3:42Speaker 01

  I mean, we make it ourselves. We use milk from an upstate farm at Finger Lakes. It's just, it's the process, to be honest with you. I mean, it's time-consuming, but we all know that things that are usually, you know, give a good yield.

• 3:52Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  I don't wanna disappoint you, though, because this book is for the people. It's not a restaurant book or a book for chefs.

• 3:57Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  This is kind of like my food, like, done at home. It's like, most of the ingredients are 10 or less. It's things that you're familiar with, things that you can go back to in your pantry. You probably need like sumac and pomegranate molasses would be like the most outlandish things, and I think they're pretty common, you know, these days.

• 4:12Dan Pashman?

  Well, anyone who follows you on Instagram knows that you're kind of like a very down-to-earth home cook who ended up with a restaurant.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. I like that.

• 4:20Dan Pashman?

  Anyway, one more thing we gotta talk about, Ayesha. Sweet potatoes with feta butter and chocolate?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:26Dan Pashman?

  What? What does that even mean?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  So, like, to me, I always equate flavors to music, if that makes any sense, right? So, like, there's those bottom notes that are like cumin, right? Tahini's a bottom note.

• 4:37Dan Pashman?

  Your baseline.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Right. If you go lemon, sumac, like pomegranate molasses, pomegranate, it's right, the high notes. So, everything is kind of like balanced. And I think, like, a lot of people think that sweet potatoes are sweet. And there inherently is a little bit of it, right? But sometimes you need other things to amplify the flavors. So, I make a feta butter, which has scallions and a little bit of herbs in it, and the lemon zest, and you whip that. And then, as I was eating it, I was like, this needs to be like, a little bit bitter. So, I mean, I don't even know where it came from. Like, a lot of my crazy ideas come at 3 o'clock in the morning when I can't sleep. But I just got a bar of like dark chocolate, and I was like, let me just see what this does to it. And it just lended like enough bitterness that, to me, like, sweet potatoes and chocolate are really not that far apart. I know it sounds crazy, but if you really think about it, I mean, you're gonna eat both of them differently.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  But here, it's just like grated generously with a microplane on top. And I think it's a showstopper in the way that people wouldn't think about those combinations. But when you eat it, it's like as if they were, you know, friends for life.

• 5:34Dan Pashman?

  Right. That one got a big star on my list.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  The holiday's coming up.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Running to my kitchen, that's a roast of sweet potato.

• 5:41Dan Pashman?

  Gail.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:42Dan Pashman?

  Guesting.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:43Dan Pashman?

  This is very fraught. I'm so glad that you've written this book, because the world needs it.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  I think so. I mean, the reason I wrote it is because I went looking for it and couldn't find it.

• 5:54Dan Pashman?

  So, you lay out a lot of different rules and guidelines for how guests should behave. But one of the big overarching ideas is the guest should be additive.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:03Dan Pashman?

  What does that mean?

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Well, first, I wanna say that I hope they're not rules. I use the word tenants, because they started out as rules. And I don't want this to be a rulebook. This actually isn't an etiquette book. It's not about like what fork to use at dinner, or how you have to like, sit up straight, or things that we think about as traditional etiquette. It's about how we can communicate and contribute better to the world around us, to enrich our own lives and to build community. And so, I think we've all sort of fallen off the boat a little bit in that it's very easy to entertain yourself with a screen these days and never leave your house or get out of your sweatpants. And I am very anti that. I think we all need to get out, be together, gather, but we don't all have to take on being the host all the time.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  In fact, we don't. We are all guests in a million places all the time. So, if we just learn to do it a little better, think about it a little more intentionally, and contribute, and be additive to every scenario we're in, I think that not only, obviously, will we put better like vibes out into the world, but we will reap the benefits of deeper relationships and like happier lives.

• 7:13Dan Pashman?

  There's kind of an inherent tension between hosts and guests. Because as the host, you feel like, I wanna take care of everybody who's in my home. As a guest, you feel like, I've been invited to this person's home, it's so nice of them, I want to contribute to, to show my appreciation and also to take some, take some of the load off of them.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Yes, 100%.

• 7:34Dan Pashman?

  But there's, there's a contradiction there. Because like, for instance, if you're like, let me do the dishes. Well, as the host, I'm like, I don't want my guests doing the dishes. Like, you came here to relax, I'll do the dishes. But the guest is like, well, but I wanna do something.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  It's hard for people to sit still and not be additive. Guest and host are reciprocal relationships, right? You need one to have the other. You can't be a guest if there's no one to host you, and you can't be a host if you don't have guests.

• 7:56Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  There's a give and take there. But you obviously wanna be additive, but you also don't wanna step on anyone's toes.

• 8:03Dan Pashman?

  Right, and that's not so easy.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Yes, the balance is to make sure that you know that you are there to be a guest, to enjoy the evening, to take a load off. That's why you go out to restaurants, that's why you go to people's homes and, and gather when you are the one who doesn't have to do the dishes. So, find little ways to help. And also, ask first, communicate, and never step on the host's plans. And that is one of the biggest tenants in the book.

• 8:26Dan Pashman?

  This is an issue that I run into with my wife, Janie, when we're hosting, because she doesn't want the guest to do anything. And I feel like guests want to help, and it makes them feel better if you give them some kind of role.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:38Dan Pashman?

  So, to be like, hey, can you, you know, can you put these chicken thighs on this platter and sprinkle this on top? Like, most guests are happy to do that kind of thing.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  They are.

• 8:45Dan Pashman?

  I'm curious to ask each of you, I believe that there are two kinds of hosts, missionaries and martyrs.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  I know exactly what you mean.

• 8:54Dan Pashman?

  Okay. The missionary host leads by example, like, this person is the life of their own party. The martyr is kind of like falling on their sword. This person is like, I may not even get to talk to my guests, but I'm gonna give up this night to make sure everyone else is happy. Which kind of host are you, Ayesha?

• 9:11Speaker 01

  I think I was the martyr turned into a missionary. And just like, not to double back, but your book is so needed, because I think like, growing up, you learn etiquette from like your elders, right? And some people don't have that. And there's been such a gap in that.

• 9:25Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  I am definitely missionary.

• 9:27Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  I wanna spread the love, I want people to get involved. But to your point about, should they contribute, should they help cook, should they set the table? You don't wanna give them tasks, or do you? I say there's so many ways to contribute, besides just asking someone to do the dishes or clear the table. That's not the only way to do it. Sometimes, for me, the best way someone can be additive is to keep me company in the kitchen when I'm cooking, because everyone else is sitting in the living room and I'm in the kitchen. And I, right now, in my house, my kitchen to living room is very open to dining room, so everyone can be together. But that's by design, because my last apartment that I lived in, the kitchen was down the hall and off to, in a corner.

• 10:08Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  And everyone else was in the party and I was always alone. And I was traumatized by that as a host.

• 10:12Dan Pashman?

  I feel like another, another great thing for a guest is, it's so great when a guest is a generally good conversationalist.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Well, that's, that's part of being additive. Involve all the people.

• 10:22Dan Pashman?

  Right, because like, if I need to go into the kitchen and do something, I wanna leave the people out here and nobody's talking like, crickets out here.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  That's a lot of the things. Another one I'll just add, is that there are ways to kind of keep the party going with little things you can do as a guest, pouring the water. Or, if there are children there, entertaining them or engaging them, so that the host doesn't feel like they're looking after their own children and your children.

• 10:43Dan Pashman?

  That's true.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  You know, there's a lot of little ways to contribute to just ease the pressure off the host, so they can focus on hosting.

• 10:50Dan Pashman?

  All right, I think we're warmed up. Are you two ready to take on some listener calls?

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm very excited, actually.

• 10:56Dan Pashman?

  All right, here comes the first one.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Hey, Dan and Sporkful crew. My name is Carrie. I live in Atlanta and I want to know what you think about this situation. Recently, my husband and kids and I went to our friend's home for dinner. They had made some ribs and potatoes. We brought corn on the cob and some homemade coleslaw, as well as some chicken sausages for my kids who would not want to eat the ribs. And before I left the house, I grabbed three beers we had in our fridge and I asked my husband to go buy another six pack so that we could have some to share with our hosts. He ended up buying two six packs and bringing them over. During the evening, I had some wine that our friends offered, as well as one of the beers that we had brought. My husband did the same. As we were leaving, I quietly asked my husband

• 11:42Speaker 03

  if we should bring the two six packs, which were unopened, home with us. He said we should leave them with our hosts as a thank you for the meal. So we ended up leaving them there. Here are my two questions. I feel that we made our contribution to the meal by bringing two sides and an alternate protein for our kids, which I think some of their kids had as well. Is my husband right that we should still have left the beers for them as a thank you for the entree and for hosting? And related, is it impolite to take unopened beer or wine back home with you after a dinner party? Thank you.

• 12:19Dan Pashman?

  This I can identify with. Ayesha, what are your thoughts here?

• 12:23Speaker 01

  I mean, I feel bad because I have strong opinions on this.

• 12:26Dan Pashman?

  Please, go for it.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  First of all, I think it's how close you are to the people. That's A1. Like, if it's your best friend that you know since you're five years old, then you go up to them and I'm like, Gail, I'm taking my wine back. I love you and I'll see you another time, right? Secondly, it's like, I find taking it back like almost insulting. You know, then you shouldn't have brought it in the first place. I think hospitality doesn't always happen in restaurants. It happens in people's homes. And if you bring something, almost when you leave, you want your friends to say, wow, Tom and Jerry came. They were so generous, you know, with what they brought and all of that. And I also think, like, did they tell them they were bringing the sides before and all of that stuff? Like, I think there's a lot of assumption going on, you know? And I'm not really sure that there's right or wrong. I just, in my opinion, I really feel like if you bring something and it's unopened,

• 13:11Speaker 01

  like you already, you made a commitment to it.

• 13:14Dan Pashman?

  This leads me to a question for you, Gail, which is, they brought a lot.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:18Dan Pashman?

  Coleslaw, corn, chicken sausage, two six packs of beer. Is there a point at which, as a guest, you're bringing too much? At a certain point, like if someone showed up to my house with a whole other meal and 10 drinks, I kind of like, it starts to be like, did you not think we were going to feed you enough? Like, did you not think our food would be good enough?

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Well, it sounds as if they know these people quite well. And it became more of a potluck, right? They were, they were at this person's house, but it was a really communal meal, right? They sort of brought half and the hosts prepared half. But they were still guests in these people's homes.

• 13:55Dan Pashman?

  But as a more general matter.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that like, yeah, you don't need to overdo it and go crazy. Absolutely, you're there to be a guest. Bring one or two things. Although I do appreciate that they brought something for their children, that they had the wherewithal to ask what was on the menu because they knew they were bringing their kids. I wouldn't necessarily ask what people are serving, except that if I was bringing my children, one of whom has a pretty legitimate dietary restriction. And so I would always ask in advance. And the fact that they knew their kids wouldn't eat the ribs, they had the wherewithal to then bring something else so that it's taken care of. So the host doesn't have to stress about making a whole other thing and, you know, usurping their dinner plan to accommodate the children. So that I think is cool. But I agree with you 100% Ayesha, that you brought it into the house. You gave it to them.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  It is now theirs to do with what they please.

• 14:42Dan Pashman?

  Right, but the flip side is, as the host, sometimes people bring over a ton of stuff or like, all right, like, let's say you told a couple of people to bring dessert and one of them showed up with two pies and the next one has three dozen cookies. And you're like, I don't need or want all of this dessert in our house.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  I, like, I talk about this in the book too, from the other side of if you're a guest and you want to take leftovers, because there often is so much waste and so much leftover. And some people aren't leftovers people. I'm a devout leftover person. If there's leftovers, I always ask. I ask not just the, if, if other people made it, I ask not just my host, but also the person who made it. Hey, I would love a slice of that pie for lunch tomorrow. Do you mind if I take a slice?

• 15:19Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  But as the host, I always encourage people to take leftovers from my home.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not a leftover person. I feel like, yes, I feel like I've had it in its prime. And unless you're going to transform it into something. So let's just say you got like a huge rabbi, right? And if I, if I ever take it home, like, the next day it has to turn into like, I don't know, a cheesesteak or something like that. But I would never heat the steak up and have it again because I felt like I had it at its prime. But what I find is when people want to bring things to my house and with the no leftover things, I buy a whole bunch of little to-go containers or even foil and I divvy it out. 15 guests, everybody goes home with something.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  It's very rare that someone is like, won't take it. I mean, obviously, I don't want them to take it and discard of it. But if you're like, this is all for you guys. Everybody take one, enjoy, you'll think of me tomorrow.

• 16:05Dan Pashman?

  All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, should you avoid certain foods because it's just too much work to eat them? Would you ever turn down something delicious because you don't feel like putting in the effort? We're going to help solve a marital crisis after the break.

• 16:24Speaker 04

  Sauté, you stay because it's time for some ads.

• 16:31Dan Pashman?

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• 17:16Dan Pashman?

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• 18:03Dan Pashman?

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• 18:48Dan Pashman?

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• 19:09Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to the Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. And as you may know, this show has been around for more than 16 years, which means we have made a lot of episodes. And what happens often is that someone will talk to me or will get an email and someone says, you did this episode years ago and I really loved it. And I was telling a friend about it, but I couldn't find it. It's not available anymore. Or I Googled and saw that you did an episode about something I'm interested in, but it's not available anymore. And that is why we have introduced something called our Friday reheats. Every Friday, we defrost an episode from the Sporkful deep freezer and publish it for your listening pleasure. We have published a whole bunch of really good ones recently. My conversation with Michael Pollan, with comedian Nagin Farsad, and my absolutely hilarious interview with Nicole Byer, in which I think I laughed harder than I've ever laughed in any Sporkful episode. You'll have to listen to that one to find out what made me laugh so hard.

• 19:54Dan Pashman?

  But make sure you check out all of our Friday reheats at the same place you got our new ones. And also, by the way, if you have a Sporkful episode you want us to reheat, we take requests. Drop me a line at [email protected]. All right, we're back now with Ayesha Nargia and Gail Simmons. Are you two ready to take a live call?

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Give it to us.

• 20:12Dan Pashman?

  All right, hi, who's this?

• 20:14Speaker 05

  Hi, this is Kim. I'm calling in from Massachusetts where I live with my husband and three kids.

• 20:20Dan Pashman?

  All right, your husband is Brian. He's right there with you. All right, hi, Brian, hi, Kim. Say hello to Ayesha and Gail.

• 20:26Speaker 05

  Hi, Ayesha, hi, Gail.

• 20:28Dan Pashman?

  So Kim, what is the issue?

• 20:31Speaker 05

  Okay, so I'm here to get justice for the wedge salad and to win a 15-year-long marital dispute.

• 20:39Dan Pashman?

  Wow, high stakes.

• 20:41Speaker 05

  High stakes. Um, so I love a wedge salad. All these amazing flavors, a dynamic, like contrasting flavors. And the issue is that Brian doesn't mind the taste of a wedge salad. He thinks it's okay or good. He doesn't want to use a knife for the wedge. He thinks that's like an abomination to have to use a knife for a salad.

• 21:11Dan Pashman?

  Brian, can you tell us why you feel that way?

• 21:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's pretty simple. And this probably extends beyond just a wedge salad, but it's really effort versus what am I getting? There's nothing wrong with the difference of wedge salad. I like iceberg lettuce, I like bacon, blue cheese, the tomatoes, all great. But it's the absolute worst vehicle to deliver it to me too because I have to, you know, work for it. And so it just comes down to, it's simply too much work. I am, I guess, lazy. Um, and I need my food. You know, Kim would say I'm being a man child, but it's really just effort versus what am I, what am I getting?

• 21:49Speaker 06

  And I don't think, you know, there's other things that go into it, too. I think the other factor is it's kind of a expectation. So if you're out at a steakhouse, it's, you know, quite expensive to get the wedge salad. And what it just comes down to is, you know, just lettuce and it's a, it's a house salad in many ways. And there's easier ways to deliver it up.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  If you're gonna get a wedge salad, what is your second order? Like, are you ordering steak? Or you, are you getting like the fish frulee? Like, where are we? Because this is gonna help me try to help you.

• 22:15Speaker 05

  So I'm getting a steak on the side, which I actually think is why the wedge salad is so great. It's like crisp and refreshing. It's not that filling. So it goes along perfectly with like a juicy, like fatty steak.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  So are you eating the steak at the steakhouse?

• 22:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's, that's on the, you know, what am I getting versus the effort? It's worth the effort to get the steak.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  It, do you think you use a lot more muscle to cut a steak than lettuce? Like, I think there's, um, there's always a knife at your table, right?

• 22:46Dan Pashman?

  You're saying, yeah, that the, cutting a steak is more work than cutting a wedge salad?

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Much more work, but I understand his point is that there's more reward. He feels that the, the steak, that what you get from that effort is more worth it, is of more value.

• 23:01Speaker 05

  Brian's treating the, the knife as a flaw and it's part of the experience. Like I, but using a knife, I can get my own bites. I decide if I want a lot of lettuce and a little bit of bacon and a little bit of blue cheese, or a lot of blue cheese and a little bit of lettuce. So he's treating it like a flaw.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  We're talking about extremes with the wedge and the steak. But when you were talking about effort, like, how do you feel about things like crab? Or?

• 23:28Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, pistachios.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Pistachios or shell, or shrimp with its shells still on.

• 23:34Speaker 06

  Pistachios, absolutely no, that's not worth the effort at all.

• 23:37Dan Pashman?

  What are your overall thoughts here, Ayesha?

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, I'm baffled. Because to me, I understand the satisfaction of eating a steak, but I actually think that the wedge salad has more dynamic and flavor. Because it's giving you different textures, um, you know, all, all these things, creaminess, like the bite of the bacon, you know, and, and the lettuce, the crunch of the lettuce. And I feel to me, like, from a satisfaction point of view, I'm almost more satisfied by eating that than I would be. I, I only need a few slices of steak, but I could eat the whole wedge by myself.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  I think maybe the answer is just you get your, your wedge salad and Brian doesn't need to share it. You don't have to like all the same things. Sometimes it's just about coming to terms with the fact that even though I love something, my husband doesn't, and that infuriates me. But I have to let it go and just save it for myself.

• 24:30Speaker 05

  Free therapy right here, Gail.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  Well, I'm going through it with you because I have, I have similar arguments with my husband. Usually it's about crab and, and, and shrimp with the shells on.

• 24:40Dan Pashman?

  I'll put in the effort person?

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Yes, I put in the effort with anything that I love. And I don't, I don't give it a scale of value. Like, I will, I, I want to do everything to get a delicious piece of food, a bite, regardless of if it's a salad or a very, you know, intricate lobster crab that I have to like crack myself and get a tiny piece of. I think that's part of the experience. I'm, I'm with you, Kim. But I also understand that my husband would probably not eat any of these things if I wasn't there to do it for him. He loves it, too. He's just like, I can't deal with this. Can you do my crab for me? And I do, and he's a lucky man because then he gets to eat it, right?

• 25:15Dan Pashman?

  He is lucky.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  I think like Brian has a very specific point of view of, of reference, right? For him, if he really loved the wedge salad, right? I think that you would find it worth it because those are the flavors that you crave the most, where you feel like you don't want to put the effort in because the wedge salad to you is just not that exciting.

• 25:30Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I, I, I think what we're coalescing around here is that this is to some degree not about the effort. It's really a matter of taste.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:38Dan Pashman?

  Brian doesn't want to put in a lot of effort or something he doesn't especially like. And I will say, I am not messing with pistachios in the shell. You know, some of them, sure, they open up nice and easy. Some of them are a real struggle. And in either case, whether it's easy or hard, after the effort you put forth, what do you have? One pistachio. At the end of the day, this is mostly a matter of taste. And I don't think that we can compel Brian to, to, to use a knife to eat a food that he doesn't especially care about eating. All right, well, uh, Kim and Brian in Massachusetts, uh, good luck at your next steakhouse meal. And whoever's eating the wedge salad, I hope you enjoy it.

• 26:16Speaker 05

  Thank you so much.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 26:18Dan Pashman?

  All right, thanks.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Stay safe, guys.

• 26:23Dan Pashman?

  Quick follow up on that call before we move on because Ayesha, as the creator of my favorite salad in New York, the fettuccine salad, one of the things, so the wedge salad is kind of unique in that, you know, you use the knife, you're kind of composing each bite. Most salads don't require a knife and you're just gonna fork around to get what you want. Your fettuccine salad has so many different components. Do you give thought to the layering of, of what order the ingredients get put on? Because if you stab a fork straight down, whatever's in the bottom will end up on the tip of the fork, which will land on your tongue first, and that flavor may be accentuated. What are your thoughts on the, on the idea of layering?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  I mean, I think layering in salad is super important. You know, the air between the lettuce, like you don't like grab it and just put it in there. I almost like always make salads with two hands, so I kind of go in there. And as I'm looking at it, like I'm making sure that they're. Yeah, they're almost, almost you want the ingredients to be equally distributed. But that being said, sometimes you have to create a bite that you, you, you want. Like, and with the fettuccine salad, you, you get those four big meteorites of halloumi.

• 27:20Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  You're not gonna eat, you could cut that in four. You could be the private person that, that like, almost like the bread on the side, where you're eating the salad and then you take a bite of it. So there's parts of it that create your own adventure.

• 27:29Dan Pashman?

  After a lot of research, I have settled on cutting each cube of halloumi into three.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:34Dan Pashman?

  That, because that, uh, into four, it was like not quite enough in the bites that I had it, but in half was too much, I go thirds.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  And there's pita, I assume, in your fettuccine salad, right?

• 27:42Dan Pashman?

  Crispy pita.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  That crispy pita, so that's hard to put on a fork. You need to, you need, if I may say, you need to scoop it or you need to push it on with a knife, which is like what a knife is for, too. Not just cutting, but, but pushing.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  It's like the bumper in bowling.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  It's the bumper. Thank you.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Helps you get that strike.

• 28:00Dan Pashman?

  All right, we're gonna take one more quick break and we got a question coming up that is a big point of contention in my house. As two professionally trained chefs, I can't wait to hear what each of you thinks about it. All right, stick around.

• 28:16Speaker 07

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• 30:24Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back, Gail. Are you sure you're ready to take some more calls?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:27Dan Pashman?

  All right, here we go. Hey, this is Taylor from Humphrey, Nebraska. And I'm Terry from Omaha, Nebraska. We do a lot of cooking.

• 30:33Speaker 07

  Cooking together and one disagreement that we often have in the kitchen is that she likes to perform this produce washing ritual that I just think is complete baloney and make believe.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  And I live in the modern world where I'm aware that a lot of hands have touched my produce before they come into my kitchen. I also know there are pesticides and things like that around and I want to get those rinsed off before I put them into my food.

• 31:01Speaker 07

  Come on, do we really have every piece of produce? We have to like run under the water? It's kitchen theater. It's kitchen theater.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  And I will continue to perform that kitchen.

• 31:12Speaker 07

  Such is our disagreements for full.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Ryan.

• 31:16Dan Pashman?

  All right. Ayesha, do you need to wash vegetables?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Uh, yes and no. If you're cooking them, like he's saying, at over 180 degrees, like I think you're okay. But I do think, I do rinse everything and we get, you know, at the restaurant, we get a lot of stuff straight from the farmers and the roots are attached, so we need to do that. At home, I like to put it under running water. I do see people have like these rituals where they add some kind of pellets or like they're actually using soap. I think that's to an extreme, you know, but I do understand her point of view about like what's happening. You know, I think a lot of people are getting E. coli and things like that, but I just think there's a medium ground to it.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Right. They didn't really explain what her particular kitchen theater is. Like, is she just rinsing everything under cold water and rinsing especially things like lettuces and leeks and things that do hold dirt and bugs and pesticides more? Or is she doing an entire four hour prep session with the water and the basin and the several rinses of something? And I agree. I think everything does need to be washed, some things much more than others, like lettuces and leeks, like certain fruit too, like strawberries and herbs. But I also think that, especially if we're cooking it, you don't have to go crazy, especially if you're peeling it as well.

• 32:34Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Right? And so I just think, yes, wash your food. I'm a food washer. Not excessively, though. I just like to rinse everything under cold water.

• 32:42Dan Pashman?

  If you have like, let's say like a head of romaine or romaine heart where you're just to get it out, so it's like the whole structure, do you only rinse the outside of it? You would pull the leaves apart?

• 32:54Speaker 02

  I cut off the end. I take the entire thing apart and I wash it all in a colander or in a salad spinner. In, you know, I usually do it in two parts, actually. I fill it up, agitate and rinse it out, and then I take it out of the colander and rinse through with running water. I have a question for you, Ayesha, actually, about this.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  How do you feel, in your home, not in the restaurant, about, you know, bags of lettuces and other vegetables that say triple washed, you don't have to wash them? Do you still wash them?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Yes, I go through it.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 33:26Dan Pashman?

  And we looked into this one and there was that sort of lettuce scare a while back.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  That was more than a scare. That was a legitimate problem.

• 33:32Dan Pashman?

  Right. And those are, those kinds of triple washed bags are actually one of the most dangerous things because typically they get washed in these huge vats. So if you got, I'll make up numbers, 100 heads, 100 heads of lettuce in a vat and one of them is contaminated and now they all sit in the same water, swimming around for however long, now that one contaminated head of lettuce is spreading to the others. And so those washed ones are actually more, of course, most of them are still safe, but there's a higher risk with those.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Well, I actually find them unnecessary to purchase.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Because you can buy a head of cabbage that's probably less than $2, right? If you cut that in quarters and then you put a damp paper towel and put it in an air sealed bag and in the fridge, it will stay good for a long time.

• 34:17Dan Pashman?

  All right, we have one more hot take. This one comes from Charles in Minneapolis.

• 34:21Speaker 05

  So what is the deal with pre-cutting steaks at restaurants? I think when I go to a steak restaurant, one of the things I enjoy most is the feeling of slicing into each little piece of meat and tucking it into my mouth, watching the juices run out as I cut into it. And then when steak comes to my table and it's already pre-sliced and juice is running everywhere, it's so disappointing. All you can do is kind of like slice one of those things in half and eat it. It's kind of a bummer. I think it should be against the law to pre-cut steaks before serving them, or at the very least there should be a disclaimer at the beginning of the menu that says, "Warning, we cut your steaks before we bring them to your table."

• 35:00Speaker 02

  I feel you, Charles. Charles should talk to Brian, just so you know, because Charles-

• 35:05Dan Pashman?

  Maybe they can become friends and Charles can come over to Brian's house and cut things for him.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  He cut his food for him. I think that Charles enjoys the effort and I appreciate it. I agree with him that when things are cut in advance and then sit under a, you know, a warmer and then taken out to, you do lose that juiciness and there is so much satisfaction in cutting your own steak. But I also respect why restaurants do it now more than ever. And often it's more about sharing and making things easier to divide at the table because it's harder if it's a steak at the table, that then you have to reach over and slice up evenly.

• 35:37Dan Pashman?

  But even some like super old school steak houses will bring you the porterhouse-

• 35:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure, with half of it cut.

• 35:41Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  I just say that if you have an issue, tell them when you're ordering it.

• 35:45Dan Pashman?

  Ayesha, thoughts on this?

• 35:46Speaker 01

  I'm with Charles. I, the minute I sit down, right before I order, I say, please do not cut it. If I order a salad, like from a place, I will call them and be like, is it possible for you to make me the chicken and not cut it? Because if it's not, I don't really want it. When you think about a pork chop, right? Or whatever, like the grizzle or the fatty pieces, like there are those desirable pieces that I really want to eat and I want to eat it at my way.

• 36:07Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  And I don't want it cut for me, period.

• 36:09Dan Pashman?

  Preach.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Right? And I will go to the restaurants that have that thing, you know, when they're cut and I get it and you're sharing it, but I don't find the same level of satisfaction unless I'm cutting my own protein.

• 36:19Dan Pashman?

  You're considering every bite.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:22Dan Pashman?

  And you are composing every bite and there's thought put into it. Oh, I'm gonna, sometimes I'll, okay, there's a fatty piece of the pork chop area and a lean area and I'll cut a little bit of fatty part and a little bit of lean part and combine them together in the same bite because I'm trying to get that fattiness everywhere. So like, I'm with you 100% Ayesha, like they're, they're making decisions for you that they shouldn't be making.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Can't handle it.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Well, and also the juiciness, like especially with a chicken breast, like it kills me that you're eating-

• 36:50Dan Pashman?

  Oh, the salad with the sliced up chicken breast on top.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's terrible. And you do really, you know, that's why you rest meat and that's why you want to slice it right before you serve it, because you do miss that, the flavor all does run out in the juices. So Charles has a really good point. You need to do as Ayesha does, which is advocate for yourself, right? Like just tell them and maybe if enough people do, they'll change the tone.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  And I don't know, I'm 100% speculating this, but I also believe that Charles is probably one of those people that will pick up a bone in a restaurant and eat it.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  And I think that everyone should feel free to do that. You know what I'm saying?

• 37:20Dan Pashman?

  Ayesha gives you permission.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  No, I think you should, like, I mean, who doesn't want a ribeye and wants the piece closest to the bone, right? Because you have almost the rarest part on one side and then you have the charred part on the outside and that combination, to me, is like something that you almost buy the steak for it, right?

• 37:37Dan Pashman?

  For those couple of bites.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  So I feel like, go on with your bad self, pick up the bone. I mean, I wouldn't be winging it in the air, but I think that, you know, I think it's fine in any restaurant that you should be able to do that and feel good about yourself.

• 37:46Dan Pashman?

  I agree. Ayesha Nargia, your new book is Mediterranean All the Way: Bold Flavors Built to Share. It comes out this week. Great to see you as always.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

• 37:58Dan Pashman?

  And my thanks to Gail Simmons, whose new book is Guesting: How to Show Up, Win Over Your Host, and Make the Most of Any Occasion. You can preorder it right now. Don't wait for it to come out.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 38:07Dan Pashman?

  Preorder it this minute. Go to galsimmons.com for all the details. Thank you both for joining me.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Love talking to you.

• 38:14Dan Pashman?

  Next week on the show, where did the story about poisoned Halloween candy come from? Has there ever actually been a razor blade in anything? We hear the shocking true crime story about a real Halloween horror. That's next week. While we wait for that one, check out last week's show. How is it that craft beer breweries have become so popular with parents and their young kids? We look into it and talk to two beer brewers who've had very different experiences as parents and kids took over their taprooms. That one's up now, check it out. And hey, if you want to hear new episodes of The Sporkful ad-free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcast Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit siriusxm.com/podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer-

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 38:58Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer- Andres O'Hara. Our technical director is- Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 39:10Speaker 04

  And I'm Crosby from Columbus, Ohio, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better. Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully. While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.

• 40:26Speaker 03

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