Bernie Sanders on Beating Authoritarianism, Billionaires & AOC

In the wake of President Trump’s return to the White House, independent Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders spent months crisscrossing the nation rallying huge crowds in red and blue states during his Fighting Oligarchy tour. His new book, “Fight Oligarchy,” is an extension of those rallies and also serves as a blueprint for how everyday Americans can push back against the deep-pocketed forces shaping politics today. But at 84 years old, the two-time presidential candidate is also looking to the future of the progressive movement he helped build. Kara and Sen. Sanders talk about his headline speech at this weekend’s No King’s rally in Washington, D. C.; the corrosive effects he thinks billionaire donors have on the Democratic Party; and the ongoing government shutdown. They also chat about how he’s getting involved early in next year’s midterm elections to help boost progressive candidates — both Democrats and independents like him — in races across the country. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You never know, I might be the first 200-year-old member of the US Senate.

• 0:04Kara Swisher?

  People are way ahead of you on that.

• 0:16Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. The 84-year-old is the longest-serving independent in the history of Congress and the face of the modern progressive movement. After President Trump returned to the White House, he spent months traveling to red and blue states on his Fighting Oligarchy tour to rally voters. He says the events drew bigger crowds than he saw during his two runs for president. Sanders's new book, Fight Oligarchy, is an extension of that tour. It's kind of a blueprint for how he thinks everyday Americans can push back against Trump, but also the deep-pocketed forces shaping our politics today. I spoke to Senator Sanders on Saturday, a little more than an

• 0:58Kara Swisher?

  hour after he headlined the No Kings rally at the Capitol. He brought up a lot of the same themes during his speech.

• 1:05Speaker 00

  This moment is not just about one man's greed, one man's corruption, or one man's contempt for the Constitution. This is about a handful of the wealthiest people on earth, who in their insatiable greed, have hijacked our economy and our political system in order to enrich themselves at the expense of working families throughout this country.

• 1:40Kara Swisher?

  Sanders is also getting involved early in next year's midterm elections. He's already endorsed about a half a dozen progressive and independent candidates in some big races like four Senate seats in Maine and Michigan. It likely sets up some contentious primaries with candidates backed by Democratic leadership as the party tries to regain power in Trump's Washington. All right, let's get into my conversation with Bernie Sanders. Our expert question comes from historian and Harvard professor Jill Lepore. Don't go anywhere.

• 2:15Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 2:59Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them ever talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try it today for free at Odoo.com/kara. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash Kara.

• 3:42Speaker 02

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• 4:28Kara Swisher?

  Senator Bernie Sanders, thanks for coming on, on.

• 4:30Speaker 00

  My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

• 4:32Kara Swisher?

  You just came from the No Kings rally. What did you think?

• 4:35Speaker 00

  I was honored to be able to speak to the crowd. And my understanding is that there were millions of people out all over this country, in small towns, large cities, and maybe, no one knows, there may have been more people out on the streets today than in any given day in American history, fighting for our democracy, fighting for a government that works for all of us and not just the few. So, kind of a historic day.

• 5:02Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely. But during the speech, you talked about some of the key moments in US history when justice won out, the Revolutionary War, the abolitionist movement, the fight for workers' rights, the right for women to vote, the civil rights movement. In the context of those historic movements, some of which involved brutal struggles to win those rights, even war, how does this moment compare?

• 5:19Speaker 00

  That's hard to say. I think all I can say is that we are living in an unprecedented moment in American history. And the point of my going back throughout history is that when all of those struggles were taking place, you know, I'm not a historian, but, you know, you got back in the 1776, you had a ragtag army. The British Empire was nothing to sneeze at. These were really powerful guys. And they say, you know what, we're tired of being taxed without having to say where our money is going. We want our own freedom. We want to be able to run our own lives. I mean, the truth is, that was quite an historic moment. And then, you know, a few years later, in 1789, these guys said, in a world that was run by monarchs,

• 6:03Speaker 00

  they said, you know what, we're going to have a constitution and it's going to limit the power of any one individual, separation of powers, executive, judiciary, legislative branches. And came up with some really incredible rhetoric. Look, we all know what America was like in the 18th century, with slavery, with sexism, all that stuff. But nonetheless, you know, these Thomas Jefferson, these guys, when, nobody to laugh at. They were brilliant guys, courageous guys. And then you look at the horror of slavery and all of that about, man, taking on the slave...

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Class, taking on these people in the South, they were enormously powerful. And you got abolitionists saying, "We gotta end this moral stain on America." And they fought, and they won, after a terrible, horrible civil war. And the suffragists, women went on hunger strikes to get the right to vote and to fight for women's rights and end, you know, gay movement.

• 7:01Kara Swisher?

  The labor movement.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  Black movement and the union movement, workers who killed, standing up to their bosses, fighting for decent wages and working conditions. My point about it was, yeah, these are tough times in America, no question about it. We've gone through tough times in the past. When people have come together, we win. And that's what we've got to do now.

• 7:20Kara Swisher?

  A lot of those had very violent parts of them, obviously. And one of the things the GOP was trying to present in a really, you know, a very coordinated way, that the marches today would be violent, it was Hamas lovers, it was, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Talk about your observations of the march and why they did that. What was their goal here?

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Well, it's clear. Look, as Trump and his friends try to take us to authoritarianism, what you have to do is strike fear in the American people. And the fear is that there are groups out there, you don't know who they are, they're crazy people, they're violent bands of people, and I've got to send the military into Portland, and to Chicago, to New York, to save the American people, to bring about calmness and a law and order. And that's what they are trying to establish. And the idea that you have the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, talking about this

• 8:20Speaker 00

  is a day where people came out to hate America, when in fact, millions of people came out because they love this country. They appreciate so much the struggles that have gone on in the past to create the kind of nation that we are. And to understand that we've got to continue that fight to protect American freedom and democracy and justice. So fear is what these guys do.

• 8:45Kara Swisher?

  What did you see, besides a lot of people wearing inflatable costumes?

• 8:48Speaker 00

  Well, I saw from where I was standing up there, like it was zillions of people, you know. You know, in fact, when you're up there speaking, you say something and it doesn't get out to people to the end. You know, it's so it was a huge crowd. My understanding of talking to some of the police officers was a nonviolent crowd here in in Washington, and I suspect that was largely the case all over.

• 9:13Kara Swisher?

  So far.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  America. Look, let's be clear. What Trumpism is about is trying to instill fear in the American people to give him more and more power. And what these guys are also trying to do in a horrible, horrible way is to divide us up. You know, demagogues, Karas, I'm sure you know.

• 9:32Kara Swisher?

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  What they what demagogues always do is they come forward with a powerless minority. You know, in Europe, it was the Jews, it was gypsies, in this country, it was the gays, blacks, Latinos, the Irish for a while. You know, you you come up with a group of people and you blame them for everything that goes on, all the problems in society, rather than addressing the real crises facing your nation and addressing them intelligently. And that's what they are trying to do. They're trying to divide us up with most of the hate, all of the undocumented people, as well as the hate, trans, you know, that's what we're supposed to hate, hate, hate. Rather, and we're trying to do very much the opposite, bring people together around an agenda that works for all.

• 10:16Kara Swisher?

  Do you think the the march was a success and what's supposed to be the impact, besides really fantastic signs? You know, I don't know if you saw any, but I enjoyed Groper Cleveland. I liked like um, Magatrisa. Um, all kinds of they were really funny. Some of them were super funny. Uh, what do you think the result is, I guess?

• 10:34Speaker 00

  The point is, the truth is, you know, does Donald Trump have political support? He does. Do many people, a majority of people, strongly disapprove of his presidency? They do. Is he popular? No. Does he have support? Yeah. And what they are trying to do, this is what Trumpism, and these guys are smart. I mean, I gotta admit it. They're good politicians. What they are trying to do, and I touched on this a little bit in my remarks, is to say to ordinary people, hey, look, we got ICE agents breaking down doors. We got US troops in Portland and Chicago. We're powerful. We are really powerful. You got nothing. Who are you? We got Elon Musk. We got all of the billionaires on our side.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  We own the media. Our people are buying elections. You know, you can't run against us because we have so much money. And by the way, you know, we control it all. You're nothing. Go home. Who the hell do you think you are? You want to protest? Fine, doesn't matter. We got all the power. And what days like today are about are showing that when we stand together, we have power. We are the majority. And one of the reasons, Carol, that at the end of my remarks, I talked about a positive vision, a very different vision than Trump has for America. You know, he wants to divide us up. I'm talking about making sure that we have a political system not controlled by billionaires. Is that a radical idea?

• 12:03Speaker 00

  You know, I come from a small state, and every March, we have town meetings. People come in, they're small towns, a thousand people a town, you know, and they come out and they argue about how much they want to spend on the roads and how much they want to spend on education. And they raise their hands and they vote. A majority rules. That's what I believe in. I believe in one person, one vote is what democracy is about, not billionaires buying election. And you know what? If you're a conservative Republican, if you're a progressive, you're a socialist, you're a Democrat, whatever you may be, that's what the overwhelming majority of the American people believe. They don't believe that multi-billionaires like Trump and multi-billionaires in the Democratic Party should buy elections, and on and on. So when we bring people together around an agenda, you know what? You do a poll. Go out. Say to the American people,

• 12:49Speaker 00

  Is our healthcare system working overwhelmingly? No, everybody knows it's broken. It's rigged by the insurance companies and the drug companies. Do you think that healthcare is a human right? We should do what every other major country does. Guarantee healthcare to all people. Of course, we should. All right. So it turns out that when you, you know, I'm not going to deny there are differences about abortion rights, about gun control, et cetera, et cetera. But on many basic economic issues, you have a very strong majority of the American people coming together.

• 13:18Kara Swisher?

  Now, you've had, we're going to get to the tech billionaires because that's my area of expertise, as you know. I have had a consistent message for years about the problems that they were going to create back 10, 12 years ago. You've had also a very consistent message for decades. How are you evolving your messages? How do you think about how you've evolved in thinking of it? You did acknowledge they're good politicians, et cetera. But is there something that's shifted for you noticing what has happened here, especially with these tech billionaires?

• 13:48Speaker 00

  I think, obviously, you know, you've got to evolve. You've got to, the world changes and if you don't change with the world, with the problems that exist today, then I think you're missing the boat. I think to me, I was at Trump's inauguration as a US Senator for Vermont. Actually, I got, for whatever reason, I got pushed into the front row. So I was right there, a real keen observer. And it really was quite amazing. There is Trump a few feet away from me and right behind him, a few feet behind him is Musk, Bezos, and Zuckerberg.

• 14:26Kara Swisher?

  And Sundar Pichai from Google, too.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Exactly. Right. So you have a, not only these big tech guys, they are three of the wealthiest people in America. And honest to God, what I was thinking about, I'm thinking about Abraham Lincoln being in Gettysburg a few days after the terrible, terrible battle where thousands of soldiers died fighting slavery and stuff. And Lincoln gets up there and he says, you know, These people did not die in vain. They died so that so many words, we can have a government of the people, by the people and for the people. You know, really deep, profound statement of what this country should be about. And I look at Trump and behind him are is a government very clearly of the billionaire class, by the billionaire class and for the billionaire class.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  So to answer your question, I think what I see and what more and more Americans see is this unbelievable concentration of ownership and wealth right now. I mean, you tell me, now, the media doesn't talk about it, and very few of my colleagues talk about it. You tell me, is it vaguely acceptable, in any stretch of the imagination, that one man, Mr. Musk, owns more wealth than the bottom 52% of American households? Does anyone think that's sane? That that's what American society should be about? That's, by the way, what the book is about.

• 15:46Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, so let's get into that. There's a lot of overlap between no kings rallies in your book. In it, you write, quote, "We're now in a life and death struggle to preserve democracy and defeat authoritarianism," as you just noted. Where oligarchy has been used more and more, that's for sure. But very few had been worried about that. I know I certainly warned Barack Obama about the tech billionaires and about their power and their influence. But a lot of them aren't quite as worried as you are in this book, because even Barack Obama gave an interview with Marc Maron, and he said, "I think we're going to be okay. That's not really a riling cry for citizens, just, you know, I think we're going to be okay." Talk a little bit about why you want to use this term oligarchy, which it is no kings, right, essentially?

• 16:27Speaker 00

  You know why? Because it's true. Let's just take a step back. You have unprecedented levels of income and wealth inequality today, correct?

• 16:37Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  Yes, is the answer. And again, maybe I'm the only person in America who feels this way, but I do think it's insane that one person on his way to become a trillionaire owns the wealth of the bottom 52% of American households, okay? At the same time, that 60% of our people are living paycheck to paycheck. That is outrageous. And just because CBS and NBC and Fox do not say it's outrageous, doesn't make it not outrageous. It is. It's insane, and that has got to be dealt with. So you got oligarchy in the sense of massive income and wealth inequality. You got oligarchy in the sense of more concentration of ownership in America.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  So in sector after sector, you got a handful of giant corporations controlling what is produced, the prices we pay, how they treat their workers. You got three Wall Street firms, BlackRock, State Street, Vanguard, who themselves combined are major stockholders and 95% of S and P corporations. I think that's crazy.

• 17:40Kara Swisher?

  So they would say, they would say, we made this money. Uh, it's our, we, we've, we invented whatever.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  I'm gonna answer that. Stay with that for a minute. Let me continue to think. All right. You talk about, why are we an oligarchy? All right. So you got income and wealth inequality. You got concentration of ownership. You got media. All right. How do people get their information? They turn on Fox, they turn on NBC, CBS. Who the hell owns those things? Oh, let's go to the internet. Well, who the hell owns the internet? Social media. Oh my goodness, isn't it funny? X formerly Twitter is owned by, oh my God, Elon Musk. Oh, well, I'm gonna go to Meta, and, and that's Instagram and Facebook. Oh, who owns that? Oh, that's Mark Zuckerberg. Who now owns Twitch and the Washington Post? Oh my God, Jeff Bezos.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  What a crazy world. Mr. Ellison now bought CBS.

• 18:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, he's thinking of buying Warner.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  And he's thinking of buying Warner, and he's thinking of buying CNN, right? And TikTok. So you got incredible billionaire oligarch concentration of ownership in media. And then last but not least, you tell me if we're in a democracy, when you got Elon Musk spending $270 million to elect Donald Trump, and billionaires in the Democratic Party spending huge amounts of money. Making sure that Kamala Harris doesn't stand up strongly for the working class of this country. Add it all together, you define, help me.

• 19:08Kara Swisher?

  You're not hearing that much, right? You're hearing like, we should do something about these billionaires.

• 19:12Speaker 00

  But I want to get back to this issue. You tell me, am I wrong in using the word oligarchy? When I, when you look at all those things.

• 19:19Kara Swisher?

  I like no kings better, I'll be honest with you, because I think oligarchy is a fancy word. But I get your point.

• 19:24Speaker 00

  All right, but here's my point. Very easy to talk about in Russia.

• 19:27Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  Oh, the Russian oligarchs control their society.

• 19:30Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Oh, in Saudi Arabia, you've got a handful of zillionaires. Well, guess what? It's the same damn thing in this country.

• 19:37Kara Swisher?

  I agree with you. I have been screaming about the power of these people for years.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  You know, there's always been rich and poor in America. No question, and you always had bosses and corporations who were not very nice.

• 19:49Kara Swisher?

  The Gilded Age, etc.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  Gilded Age, exactly. But you've got something different now. You've got in these guys, in Peter Thiel, and in Musk, and these other guys, they've got a philosophy. They really do, and I talked about it a little bit in my remarks today. They really do believe. You know, I mean, every corporation wants tax breaks, every corporation hates unions. Fine, we're used to that. These guys are different. In fact, I think I was reading something the other day. Peter Thiel was actually using the expression "anti-Christ", a religious term. If anybody suggests that these big tech guys should not have unlimited power, that you want to control them. It's not that "I disagree with you, you're wrong",

• 20:35Speaker 00

  it's "you're anti-Christ, we are the kings". I mean, it is kind of interesting, the similarity to what we had back in the 1770s, where these kings really do think God gave them their power.

• 20:50Kara Swisher?

  Right, so when you think about using that, when they make the, the argument, "Well, we made it through our own means and this and that", so what, how dare you think about, you know, either you or Elizabeth Warren doing a tax on us? It was our money, this is a capitalist society.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Nobody makes it on their own. You and I are chatting this, there are a lot of people who developed the technology. That we're using right now, you have people, workers there, I have my staff. Nobody does it on their own. Nobody goes to work if you're not on a road. Nobody, you know, gets information without zillions of people contributing. Nobody makes it on their own. They went to schools, you know, they had great teachers. But it's a philosophy. You can have a philosophy. I get it. That is their philosophy. It's mine? I don't give a damn about you. It is mine. I will do anything I want and I don't want you to touch it. That's one way of looking at the world. That is Trumpism, a part of Trumpism.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  And there's another way to look at the world and to say, you know what? I'm a human being. You're a human being. And to be human is not for me to say, I want it all and I don't give a damn about you and your family. It's to say, you know what? We're in this together, you know? And I want you to care about my, the problems my family has. And I will care about the problems that your family has. And we will work together to improve life for each other. That there's a level of solidarity as human beings. We share common dreams and I don't care about the color of your skin or where you were born. You want your kids to have a good education and be healthy. And that's what I want for my kids and grandchildren. So we are looking at very strong philosophical differences.

• 22:33Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 22:43Kara Swisher?

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• 23:28Kara Swisher?

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• 23:47Kara Swisher?

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• 25:00Kara Swisher?

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• 26:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:20Kara Swisher?

  We obviously don't have official numbers. Today's no king's protest, but these are large protests. Talk a little bit of how you translate that into actual sustained opposition. I mean, I think it was striking to a lot of people of the crowds that you got. What is the next step beyond that?

• 26:37Speaker 00

  Well, let me just say, it was striking because, you know, it's one thing, you're running for president of the United States, you go to Los Angeles, you're going to get a big crowd. Nobody was running. I'm not running for anything. Alexandria was not running for anything. Yet you had 36,000 people out in LA, but it wasn't just LA. You had 20,000 people out in Salt Lake City, 12,000 people outside of Boise, Idaho, for God's sakes, 30,000 people out in Folsom, California, which is represented by a Republican congressman. And what we saw, we keep, you know, I have a pretty good political organization and we keep tabs on these things. So we know pretty much who comes to these rallies. They sign up. About half the people came were Bernie supporters. Half the people were not. And you know what?

• 27:22Speaker 00

  There were a significant number of Republicans and a significant number of independents who were there as well. So the takeaway from all of that is that there are a lot of people, not just progressives, but some Republicans, independents, who are very concerned about the direction in which Trump is taking this country.

• 27:45Kara Swisher?

  So that said, you were very open about the ways you feel about the Democratic Party had failed voters, as you just noted, in the working class more broadly. According to polling, the party has never been more unpopular, even though President Trump is also unpopular. You've said it's because the Democrats have abandoned politics and helped working families, but it's not like the Republicans have adopted those policies.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 28:06Kara Swisher?

  Yet voters without college who you favor Trump, as you know, in 2024 by double digits. There's a cultural component to MAGA's appeal that goes beyond policy.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:15Kara Swisher?

  Why is there that conundrum? Is that they don't like either thing?

• 28:20Speaker 00

  That's a great question. That's a great question, Cara, that we don't talk about enough. Before I answer that question, let me tell you, as part of our Fighting Allegory tours, we just, you know, we went, we didn't just go to big cities and stuff. I went to West Virginia, a state that I happen to love, really just a working-class state of very good, honest people. We had a town hall meeting, it wasn't attended by tens of thousands, 400 people came out, and it was an incredibly moving experience to me. You have working-class people saying, you know what, we don't have healthcare, we gotta go hours to find a dentist, we gotta go hours to find a specialist, kids are not getting

• 29:05Speaker 00

  the quality education they need to make it in today's world. Decent, good people coming up, talking about what is going on in their state. And while West Virginia, in fact, is poorer than many other states, you could say the same thing in Vermont and any other state in America. So this is what I think. I think that Trump wins not because people who voted for him, working-class people, believe in tax breaks for billionaires, or throwing 15 million people off the healthcare they have, many of them will be Trump supporters, that's not what they voted for him. They voted for him because the Democratic Party has not given them an alternative vision.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  And in West Virginia, the Democratic Party, for example, doesn't exist.

• 29:51Kara Swisher?

  It's virtually not exist. It used to.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  So there is no alternative.

• 29:54Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  So your point is right. What I have said over the years, and say it very loudly now. Is the Democratic Party has got to make a fundamental decision. And that decision is, do you worry about your campaign contributions from A-PAC? And from the other billionaire super PACs? Or do you come up with an agenda that speaks to the needs of the working class in this country? If you come up with that agenda, you will win back many of the working class votes who are supporting Donald Trump, in my view.

• 30:28Kara Swisher?

  So, one of the things that Trump is actually good at is he normalizes racism by delivering it to me as entertainment, like hateful rhetoric is show business, really. How can the left strip away that disguise and make the harm visible instead of letting him smuggle bigotry in through humor and charm, really?

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Kara, let's be clear, and I'm glad you raised that. You know, Trump, before he was involved in politics, was a very successful TV personality, right? He got a top-rated show. He was good. He's a good entertainer. And in many ways, his administration is a reality presidential administration where you have really talented entertainers from Fox Television who know how to perform very well on TV. That is what they do. I'm kind of old-fashioned, and I think that the best way is to come forward with an agenda which speaks to the needs of working families.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  So, interestingly enough, you know, I was on CNN the other day with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. We did a town hall. And of course, the Republicans, oh, not a crazy Bernie, lunatic Bernie, all that stuff. They attacked Alexandria. So they sent out this long press release attacking me. You know what they forgot to mention in their press release?

• 31:52Kara Swisher?

  What?

• 31:53Speaker 00

  Not one word about health care. These guys do not want to defend the big, beautiful bill which threw 15 million people off the healthcare that they have, which studies indicate will result in the deaths of some 50,000 Americans every year. They don't want to talk about that. They don't want to... In Vermont, just the other day, people started getting their insurance notices. In Bennington, Vermont, you got a couple make it $80,000. Going to pay a quadruple increase, quadruple in their health insurance. Half of their income going to healthcare. That's insane. My Republican colleagues don't want to talk about that. So what should Democrats do?

• 32:37Speaker 00

  Talk about it every bloody minute of the day. 50,000 people will die unnecessarily when you throw 15 million people off the healthcare they have. That's what you're talking about. People cannot afford 50% of their income going to healthcare.

• 32:53Kara Swisher?

  So one of the things you do is blame Democrats' problems on billionaires, as you noted, and conservative influence they have on the party's policies and candidates. As you just noted, why Kamala Harris lost in 2024. That said, their support for Democrats may be fleeting. Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff, who previously donated to Democrats recently, said he wanted Trump to deploy the National Guard to San Francisco, although he's walked back those comments and seemingly...

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Who said that? I'm sorry.

• 33:17Kara Swisher?

  Marc Benioff. He runs Salesforce. OpenAI CEO Sam Altman has donated money to hundreds of Democrats, and he criticized Trump for years. Now he's partnering with him. Democratic mega donor Barry Diller told me he wants people to give Trump a positive spirit, and he pushed back against what he called Trump Derangement Syndrome. On the other hand, we've seen a lot of pushback from billionaires like Lorraine Powell Jobs, who owns The Atlantic, and Ron Conway, another very wealthy person pushing back on Trump very hard and very vocally. Do you think the Democratic establishment is coming around to your view, given the sharp heel turn we've seen from some of these formerly friendly tech billionaires?

• 33:55Speaker 00

  I honestly, I don't stay up nights worrying...

• 33:58Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, about that.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  About what billionaire... But I do find it interesting, Kara, it's...

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Again, I'm not an expert on this thing. I suspect you know more than I do. But Mark Zuckerberg, I guess he loved Barack Obama. They were pals, right? And Jeff Bezos, a nice moderate guy, Washington Post, blah, blah, blah, blah. Musk, I think, if I'm not mistaken, voted for Obama in 2008, right?

• 34:23Kara Swisher?

  He did.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  So what you're seeing now is the billionaire class going where the money is. And Trump has, let's be honest, you're a billionaire. Trump has been very generous and kind to you. He repays his friends. They help elect him. They support him. And these guys are making out like bandits right now. So, you know, it's fine if they're decent billionaires who understand that we've got to fight to retain democracy. God bless them. That's great. But the future of this country will not rest on a handful of billionaires. It will rest on working class people and the vast majority of our people standing up and fighting for justice and democracy.

• 35:03Kara Swisher?

  But you did note that Elon Musk gave $250 million to help elect Donald Trump. It probably helped quite a bit. Should the Democratic Party be counting on wealthy donors anymore to raise cash? And what's the alternative?

• 35:13Speaker 00

  No, the alternative is, look. I mean, today, millions and millions of people came out. If you give those people, and many who did not come out, an agenda, a vision for the future, which says that in the richest country in the history of the world, it is not a radical idea to say that everybody should have a decent standard of living. You tell me, in America, should we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of any, almost any major country, really, in America? Give people a vision, and you know what? They'll trip in 25 or 50 bucks to help your campaign. And you know what? Money is important. I'm a politician. You don't need zillions of dollars to run a campaign. You need a certain amount.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  And you can win. But that is, and then, of course, ultimately, you've got to get rid of the Citizens United, which allows billionaires to buy elections.

• 36:05Kara Swisher?

  So a heel turn on billionaires, just ignore it, just say, good for them.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  If they want to contribute and play a role, that's fine. I mean, I appreciate that. I'm not, you know, there are a lot of decent people happen to be billionaires. They think that democracy and truth is important, God bless them. But the future of this country depends on working class people standing up and taking on the billionaire class, which is getting richer and richer. Now, you tell me how it could be that with all of this new technology that we've seen in the last 50 years, and I want to talk about AI with you in a minute, you know more about this stuff than I do. But you tell me, how does it happen that over the last 50 years, an explosion in technology, worker productivity exploding, you've got millions of workers who, in real inflation accounted for wages, are earning less than somebody in their place 50 years ago?

• 36:54Speaker 00

  And what's going to happen with AI?

• 36:55Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, well, we'll get to AI in a minute, but every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours.

• 37:02Speaker 03

  Hi, Senator Sanders. This is Jill Lepore from Harvard. Historically, most of the reforms that you endorse required pressure from third political parties, from the Free Soil Party to the People's Party to the Progressive Party. So I wonder whether it's really possible for the billionaire-funded Democratic Party to reform itself without pressure from a third political party? And I guess another way of asking the same question is whether, in hindsight now, looking back, might it have been more useful for you to have spent the last half century building a third political party instead of caucusing with the Democrats? Thanks very much.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  Well, thank you for your question. It's a good question. And my answer is that...

• 37:52Speaker 00

  It is, right now, what we are doing, I am doing with my coworkers, are supporting candidates who are running as independents. You don't want to run as a Democrat? We are right now, Carol, working with literally thousands of people who are running. We're helping them figure out how to run for school board, city council, state legislature, etc. Many of them are running as progressive Democrats. Many of them are running as independents outside of the Democratic Party. Now, it's very easy to say, "Let's form a third party." Well, it's a great idea. And you have examples of it. The Green Party is a third party.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  Have they played an important role in modern American politics? Maybe to some degree they have. I would not say that they have been enormously successful. I don't know what they get, 1%, 2% of the vote. When I ran for president as an independent in the Democratic Party, I got millions and millions of votes and brought forth an agenda that millions of people were nodding their heads. And an agenda, I think, which has helped to some degree transform politics in America today. Would I have been able to do that running as a third party? So, the idea about a third party is, I'm not dismissing it. But it ain't easy.

• 39:21Speaker 00

  You need a lot of money to do that. You need to deal with some states who are very, very restrictive regulations. The state of Vermont, you want to get a third party, pretty easy. Other states, not so easy. So, the answer is, where we are right now is, I have made it clear. I personally will support and am supporting candidates who are running as independents outside of the Democratic Party. And if people are wanting to run as independents, taking on conservative Democrats, establishment Democrats, I will be there, given, you know, the nature of the race.

• 39:55Kara Swisher?

  But not a national political third party.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  At this moment, you know, I, I think it's rather difficult and I think we are seeing momentum right now to transform the Democratic Party, some great candidates around the country, etc.

• 40:10Kara Swisher?

  And when you talk about transform, one of the things that you run into all the time is Bernie bros who became Trump supporters. Talk about how you feel about that heel turn, because they seem to be turning back again.

• 40:21Speaker 00

  This is what I think. But Trump, and again, I think Trump is, has his mental issues. I think he's unstable. I think he's a pathological liar. I think his agenda for America is horrific. All right. So let me be clear about that. But he understands something that the Democratic establishment did not understand. The system, Kara, is broken. So you go out, how's America doing? It's broken. Healthcare system, broken and dysfunctional. Child care system, broken and dysfunctional. Housing, who can afford to buy a house? No young person can afford

• 41:04Speaker 00

  to buy a house. Nutrition, our people are overweight. They can't afford decent quality food. Kids are doing junk food. All right. On every basic level, the system is broken. And Trump, in so many words, he doesn't use it that way. He says, look, it's all broken. And the reason for it's the undocumented people. It's the trans people. That's why it's broken. Well, it's crazy stuff. But he understands the system is broken. And what does the Democratic establishment says? Well, you know, I think if you make forty eight thousand, three hundred and ninety two dollars, we will be able to provide you with a program that gets you fourteen percent help on your, on your healthcare.

• 41:45Kara Swisher?

  Is that, is that your voice of a Democratic Party?

• 41:48Speaker 00

  In other words, they are tinkering around the edges. Everybody in America knows the healthcare system is broken. There are forty seven members of the Democratic caucus. I got fifteen or sixteen of them on a Medicare for All system. Why? Everybody knows that we have massive wealth and income inequality. How many Democrats have the guts to say, you know what? Maybe Mr. Musk and Bezos should stop paying their fair share of taxes. So these guys tinker around the issues. They want it a little bit. And in fourteen years, we're going to be successful. That's not what the American people want to hear. So Trump is tough. I'm going out there, the system is broken. I'm sending ICE agents over there. The military's going, I'm doing this. I'm bringing these guys in. And people respond to that.

• 42:32Speaker 00

  Democrats got to be tough, too. But they have got to take on not poor undocumented people. Most of them will work at hard. Sure, I just hope they got to take on the goddamn oligarchy. That's what they got to do.

• 42:46Speaker 04

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 42:54Speaker 04

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• 45:29Kara Swisher?

  So let's then talk about a lot of news items that are in this oligarchic area. As you noticed, you just mentioned AI. We'll start with AI. So you're proposing a robot tax that would increase taxes on corporations that use AI to eliminate jobs. I just did an interview on the future of work of AI, and my guests pointed out that it would be incredibly difficult to assess what counts as an AI-related job loss, since it's going to be incorporated into everything. It's like, sort of like electricity. So talk about the practical implementation of a robot tax and how do you think it should work?

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Well, look, a robot tax is one of the visions. And again, I don't want to claim to be an expert. All right, but this is what I, and please, you know more about this than I do. You correct me what I'm, if I'm wrong here, okay? My understanding, which is right, is that the Musks, the Zuckerbergs, the Bezos, the Ellison's of the world are putting many, many hundreds of billions of dollars into AI and robotics. Is that correct?

• 46:27Kara Swisher?

  Yes, indeed.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Okay. So the question that we want to ask ourselves is, okay, why are they doing that? Are they doing that to benefit the working families of America?

• 46:37Kara Swisher?

  No.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Well, you know what? Between you and me, I don't think so. I think the reason they're doing it is they see wonderful opportunities to become even richer and more powerful. Okay, that's my view. Should the American people and their elected representatives begin to stand up to that? The answer is yes. Now, when you talk about AI, and again, I bow to you of more knowledge in this stuff than I do. Certainly, one of the immediate things is the people that I talk to, and I've talked to some people who know a lot about this, is they worry that many, many millions of entry-level jobs, of factory jobs, will disappear. Do you agree?

• 47:21Kara Swisher?

  Well, it's both robotics and AI together. Robotics doesn't get as much attention, but the numbers are huge in terms of improvements.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Right. And we're just beginning to see robotics in this country. China is way ahead of us. So, for a start, it's insane for the elected officials of this country to say, whoa, wait a second. You know? What the hell's gonna happen when millions of people no longer have a job? Alright? So, I came up with some proposals. You know, I think a tax on robots is one. I'll tell you what I think is even more important. And that is if robotics and AI is going to increase worker productivity, which it certainly will, right?

• 48:06Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely.

• 48:07Speaker 00

  The benefits should not simply go to Mr. Musk and his friends. They should benefit ordinary people in this country. What does that mean? It means radical idea. You know, the 40-hour work week was established, I think, in the 1940s. You know what? Maybe it's time to do what companies in some countries are beginning to do, lower the work week from 40 hours a week to 32 hours a week without loss of pay. Okay? Maybe that is a proper response. Maybe we should be thinking now of giving workers more power over the companies that they work, or worker ownership of companies.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  In large corporations, getting workers and their unions on the boards of directors, etc. But I think, I don't have all the answers to this, but I do think that this is a... Incredibly transformative and potentially destructive moment for working families, and we've got to respond aggressively.

• 49:10Kara Swisher?

  Not just working families, upper-middle class.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  That's right, okay. And then, you know, I'm just talking about the economy. And then you go to, look, again, you know, you go to the mental health issue. I mean, we have kids who spend their lives on the internet, and their best friends are somebody in a chat box. What are the implications of that for humanity in general? If my best friend is somebody on a chat box, really? If I don't interact with other human beings? What the hell is that about? What kind of society do we live in?

• 49:47Kara Swisher?

  So thus far, Congress has done nothing, I would say, not less than nothing. In fact, giving them all kinds of gimmies.

• 49:54Speaker 00

  Yes, I agree.

• 49:55Kara Swisher?

  How do you begin to pass any? I mean, Senator Klobuchar has tried, Senator Warner has tried. These never go anywhere.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  Look, this gets back to the basic issue that I, you know, I talk about all the time. It's not just AI and robotics, it's not just healthcare, it's not just that we have a federal minimum wage of seven and a quarter an hour, not just that we, the only major country not to guarantee healthcare at all. It gets back to the nature of our political system. So does anybody out there really think that the United States Congress in its totality is standing up and worrying about the working class, the middle class of this country, the future of America, our young people? Or are they more worried about getting campaign contributions from wealthy individuals?

• 50:46Kara Swisher?

  They certainly have tried, though. Was that not genuine? Because those bills just died.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  No, of course, look, I don't, there are serious people, I do not hear me to say otherwise.

• 50:57Kara Swisher?

  So why don't they pass? Because they get paid off. The others who have to vote get paid off. So how do you break that logjam?

• 51:02Speaker 00

  Well, for a start, you rally the American people to get rid of this Citizens United Supreme Court decision which allows billionaires to buy elections. If billionaires were not able to buy elections. You know how much time my colleagues spend raising money?

• 51:16Kara Swisher?

  A lot.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  Half of their lives are raising money. It's pathetic. They feel it's pathetic. You know, wouldn't it be kind of nice if we had a Congress that was responsive to the people back home, not spending their life raising money from wealthy people so they could address the real issues facing their constituents? So, we need a political revolution in this country if you're going to deal with the looming or the existing crisis that we're going to face from AI and other issues.

• 51:45Kara Swisher?

  First speaking, that conservative justices in the Supreme Court appear to be ready to finish gutting the Voting Rights Act. They may strike down the section that is guaranteed majority-minority districts. The New York Times analysis says that decision could strip Democrats around a dozen districts in the South, coupled with the gerrymandering fight right now, redistricting, or facing the possibility of Republicans cementing control of the House. If that happens, what's the strategy? How do you overcome this, which would be a major structural disadvantage?

• 52:10Speaker 00

  Uh, look, it gets back to, you know, maybe the beginning of this discussion. These are very disturbing and difficult times in American history. At the end of the day, the only way out is going to be with millions of people, and we saw it today as a good start, standing up in every possible way, fighting back to protect American democracy and the needs of working families.

• 52:37Kara Swisher?

  So, when you, if they do cement that, what is the, there is no alternative, is there?

• 52:43Speaker 00

  Well, there are alternatives. You know, if the American people are rallied, there are, you know, there are, you know, the civil rights movement, remember, you know, Dr. King and the others had to take on racist governors.

• 52:56Kara Swisher?

  And senators.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  Controlled the, their police, and they ended up winning because they spoke to the moral sense of the American people, and they made it impossible for that type of segregation and racism to continue to exist. Can we do the same? Yeah, I mean, we'll have to develop the tools as we go along, but.

• 53:17Kara Swisher?

  So we've seen Trump escalating his troop deployments. The DOJ also brought its first Antifa terrorism charges against two Texas men. We've seen indictments of former FBR Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James, also Trump's former National Security Advisor John Bolton, though the case started during former President Biden's term, as a support of career prosecutors. Taken together, they don't feel like the actions of someone who believes the movement will be out of power in three years. How close do you think Trump is to succeeding at that? I mean, if you're fighting oligarchy, he's the ultimate oligarch, right? Correct?

• 53:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, he is a representative of the oligarchs. Look, on the other hand, what we are seeing today, I don't have the numbers in front of me, is maybe more people coming out in rallies against oligarchy, against authoritarianism than we've ever seen in American history. I can tell you that they're in the House of Representatives, don't get a lot of attention. It's not just Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. There is dozens of other strong, young, often people of color progressives who are taking on the oligarchy back home. I can tell you that there are thousands of people running for office at the local level. So we're seeing a lot of very positive things happen in this country.

• 54:31Speaker 00

  But, you know, I share your concern that what we are taking on is a very dangerous president and a dangerous moment in American history.

• 54:39Kara Swisher?

  I'm curious why you don't seem to want to talk about Trump maybe trying to stay in power. Do you think that's a threat or not?

• 54:44Speaker 00

  Look, who knows what Trump will do? He is an authoritarian. He is a demagogue. Clearly, we know by forcing, getting his states to gerrymander their congressional districts, he wants to stay in power. Another example, a woman from Arizona, Adelita.

• 55:05Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, they won't seat her.

• 55:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, he won't seat her. I mean, she will get seated, waiting, delaying that, perhaps because of the Epstein files. Look, there's no magical formula. The bottom line here is that we have got to mobilize at the grassroots level. Today was a great start. We've got to strengthen the trade union movement. We've got to get young people. Our working-class people, senior citizens, to begin to stand up and fight for the country that we can become.

• 55:32Kara Swisher?

  So let's turn quickly to the government shutdown, which is now in its third week. Speaking on MSNBC on Wednesday, Senate Majority Leader John Thune said that he offered Democrats a vote on extending Obamacare subsidies the party is demanding in order to reopen the government. You're not a Democrat, as you said, but you caucus with him. What specifically do you and others need to see for the Republicans to end the shutdown? I know you and—

• 55:52Speaker 00

  First of all, a vote, what does a vote mean? It's not only a vote, and then what happens in the House, and the President can veto all this stuff. What, to my mind, and I think the minds of most Americans, this shutdown is about is the possible collapse of our current healthcare system. I do not know how any member of the US Congress can vote to throw 15 million people off of their healthcare and, according to studies, allow 50,000 Americans to die unnecessarily every year. I don't know how, when people are struggling right now, we could allow people to see a doubling or a tripling of their healthcare premiums.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  So to me, that is what the shutdown is about. And when Republicans— and Republicans don't want to talk about those issues. And that tells me that they are afraid, it tells me that we are winning this, it tells me we got to keep talking about it. When they come to the table and say, "All right, we're not going to let 50,000 people a year die unnecessarily, we're not going to double premiums, let's get moving, the House will pass it, the Senate will pass it, the President has promised he will sign it."

• 57:00Kara Swisher?

  That's when it ends. Now, some of the things Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer warned about when he voted to keep the government open earlier this year are playing out. Trump is consolidating power, the administration is pushing for more mass layoffs, so the federal judge has blocked them for now, the President has halted billions of projects in largely Democratic districts. Even if you manage to force Republicans to extend the healthcare subsidies and permanently, are you worried about the risks in getting this, or is this still the right strategy?

• 57:29Speaker 00

  What do you mean, the risk in getting it?

• 57:31Kara Swisher?

  Does all the things the Republicans consolidating power even more worth the healthcare subsidies themselves?

• 57:37Speaker 00

  Look, they would do that, but do you think Trump needs a shutdown to lay off? We went through Doge. They don't particularly worry about the Constitution, they don't worry about the law. They will do what they want to do for their own political purposes and their own economic purposes. But I think right now, let me just mention to people who may not know this, the essence of what's going on right now in the shutdown is you've got majority rule in the House. They pass their budget. In the Senate, you need 60 votes. That's what has been the case for a very long time. And what that is about, it requires, it means that there must be bipartisan

• 58:18Kara Swisher?

  Correct.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  negotiations. That's what it means. Republicans up to this point have refused to negotiate. What they have said is our way or the highway. Take it or leave it. And what Democrats are saying, appropriately so, sorry, that ain't good enough. You're gonna have to sit down with us. These are our demands, and you're gonna have to meet them if you want our support.

• 58:37Kara Swisher?

  And where do you think it will end up? And you think sticking with it is the best course of action?

• 58:42Speaker 00

  I think so. I think that when people get notices that their health insurance premiums, which are already sky high,

• 58:51Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  unaffordable, are gonna go up by double, triple. I think my Republican colleagues are gonna say, okay, enough is enough. We can't go home and defend that. Let's negotiate something.

• 59:02Kara Swisher?

  And so, but you and Representative Cortez says you're not gonna take a pinky promise. It has to have passed legislation, signed by the President.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely. Look, these guys, these guys lie all the time.

• 59:14Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, so that would be an extension or permanently?

• 59:16Speaker 00

  I think it should be permanently extended. Look, and by the way, having said that, I'm not a great fan of the ACA, the Affordable Care. Before Trump, to be honest, the healthcare system was broken.

• 59:28Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  We paid the highest prices in the world. We need to do what every other major country does, and that is a Medicare for All system.

• 59:36Kara Swisher?

  But that seems far away. So this is what you'll accept right now?

• 59:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, right now, yeah, yes.

• 59:41Kara Swisher?

  That's a progressive stance, Medicare for All. Let's talk about the modern progressive movement. As I noted, you and Representative Ocasio-Cortez joined, she joined you at many of these fighting oligarchy rallies. Is she your heir apparent? Or can you explain this relationship for people? I mean, it's adorable.

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  Adorable. Well, look, she is, I think, an outstanding person.

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  I think she is really, really smart. I think in the best sense of the word. She's a great politician. I know she was up in Vermont a few years ago. We had breakfast together at a restaurant. People come out over to her. And her smile, the way she greets people, it's genuine. She's real. She's a real person. And I think people see that. But there are other great people in the House of Representatives who are doing a great job as well. So I don't have any heir or parents. She is just doing great. But there are many, many others out there who are fighting the right fight as well.

• 1:00:40Kara Swisher?

  Well, she is on your tour, though. There's no, I don't see others.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  She was on my tour.

• 1:00:43Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. So one of the things that's important to think about is what's coming next within the Democratic Party. And there are all these interesting races, like with Graham Plathner in Maine a few days ago. The state's two-term senator, Democratic Governor Janet Mills, announced she's running for Senate and setting up a tough primary. What do you think if you had to pick? There's all these different people, like Plathner and others, that means for the 2026 elections and then the 2028 elections? If it's going to be built around a progressive agenda?

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  I think what you're seeing, I mean, for example, it was interesting to me that more and more establishment Democrats saying, you know what? I don't want any AIPAC money. Right? That's interesting. Because they are understanding that the American people have been disgusted with billions of US dollars going to Netanyahu to starve children in Gaza. So they're catching on. I think what you're seeing in Michigan with Abdul El-Sayed, you're seeing it in Nebraska with Dan Osborne, you're seeing in Texas with some strong candidates, James.

• 1:01:53Kara Swisher?

  Talarico.

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  Talarico. And others, and congressional candidates as well. You're seeing working-class candidates coming up who I think are resonating with, you know, people like them in their willingness to take on big money and fight for an agenda that works for working families. And I think that is fairly transformational. We're beginning to see some really fundamental changes in the nature of the Democratic Party.

• 1:02:21Kara Swisher?

  All right. My last question. You're 84 years old right now. You told Politico that your current term, which ends in 2030, will likely be your last. But you also filed papers to run again in 2030. Do you feel like there's enough of this movement that you've instilled, whether it's AOC, whether it's Mumdani, someone like Texas Congressman Greg Cassar? When do you imagine you'll be able to say, okay, they've got it from here? Or where do you think of yourself?

• 1:02:47Speaker 00

  Well, they have it already. It's not a question. You know, Mumdani is...

• 1:02:50Kara Swisher?

  So what about for yourself? I don't think you're going to be a 200-year-old candidate.

• 1:02:54Speaker 00

  You don't think so?

• 1:02:55Kara Swisher?

  No. I would advise against it.

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  I try to do unprecedented things. You are suggesting that I'm not going to be a 200-year-old senator. See? You people are always doubting, doubting, doubting. I don't know. All right, anyhow, look, it's not me. Okay? I do my thing. I am really proud of the campaign Mumdani is running in New York. A brilliant campaign, grassroots campaign, talking about the right issues, what Alexandria is doing, what Greg in Texas is doing, what great candidates all over the country are doing. For as long as I can do it, I'm going to play my role. I grew up in a three-and-a-half-room rent-controlled apartment in New York City. Okay? I am from the working class of this country. Those are my people, and I hope to God I never forget where I came from. So I'm going to continue that fight for as long as I can.

• 1:03:42Kara Swisher?

  All right. Thank you so much, Senator Sanders.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  Thank you very much. Take care.

• 1:03:51Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Rosell, Kateri Yokum, Michelle Aloy, Megan Burney, Kalen Lynch, and Devin Schwartz. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Rosemary Ho and Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Track academics. If you're already following the show, you get an inflatable frog costume. If not, you're a 200-year-old senator. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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