Jackson White: Toxicity and Tell Me Lies

Join Alex in the studio for an interview with Jackson White. Jackson talks all about his experience on Tell Me Lies, what it was like playing the most toxic man alive, and his reaction to the series finale. He also opens up about his relationship with Grace, his complicated childhood, and his sobriety. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 1:25Alex Cooper?

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• 2:13Alex Cooper?

  What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding Father Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:22Alex Cooper?

  Jackson White, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:25Alex Cooper?

  How are you doing?

• 2:29Speaker 01

  As if we haven't like, like asked that question like nine times before we started this.

• 2:33Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah, we've been like hanging out for a second before we started recording, guys.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Was I the most high maintenance?

• 2:39Alex Cooper?

  You're not high maintenance. No, no, no, I'm just dealing with a lot right now emotionally because I just watched the finale last night.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Oh, that kind of.

• 2:47Alex Cooper?

  And so like, I'm, I'm just trying to process like you as you and all the girls came up and they're like, oh, he's like really charming and he's like really nice. And then like watching Steven last night.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:59Alex Cooper?

  And so it's like a little bit of a mindfuck to be sitting here with Steven DeMarco being like, should I be scared? Like, what's the vibe? Do people come up to you on the street and call you Steven or Jackson?

• 3:08Speaker 01

  They all the time. It's mostly Steven.

• 3:10Alex Cooper?

  How do you feel about it?

• 3:11Speaker 01

  I'm excited for it to be not to get to the phase where it's your name. It's a great honor to be a, a, a great character, but I'm super stoked for my own name to be said. But now I'm still, yeah.

• 3:27Alex Cooper?

  Jackson, represent.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  It's one day, but it's cool. I'm Steven now. I'm Steven.

• 3:32Alex Cooper?

  Um, when I think about Steven, I feel like he's kind of the antithesis of the America sweetheart, you know? Can you kind of just try to explain to us what it was like playing a literal sociopath? Like, how did you get into that character?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, it started.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  It started as it always, just very simply. You just try and be truthful and enjoy the character and learn him. And then he turned into this like absolute garbage fire of a guy. But at the beginning, it was really fun. It was like, it was like, why does he do what he does? And he was a complicated guy and a complicated relationship and it was really fun. And then the writers just turned him into a, he's, you know, he's the. Worst.

• 4:23Alex Cooper?

  He's like one, one step behind like a serial killer.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  That's what I've heard.

• 4:29Alex Cooper?

  Like he's right there.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  He's baby serial killer.

• 4:32Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, he is. Um, I feel like it's funny to watch online. A lot of people have talked about how there are these like mannerisms. And the posture and the way he walks and the hands in the pockets. Like, is that something that you also do in your normal life? Or did you create that for this character?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  So he, uh, it's both. Like there's these.

• 4:56Alex Cooper?

  Do you have good posture?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Are you scared of me?

• 4:58Alex Cooper?

  I'm not scared of you. I'm just, it's a rewiring of the brain.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:02Alex Cooper?

  Cause I just binged it.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:04Alex Cooper?

  So I've been watching you.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  By the way, I, I do have bad posture, but it's not like, I have, I'm, I'm a drummer.

• 5:12Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  And my whole life I was like this. And then so my back.

• 5:17Alex Cooper?

  Got like the hunchback.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm working on you. You go, you, you work on it. I didn't go to like theater. School and learn the, the breath in the back. I didn't do that, but I'm working on it. So.

• 5:29Alex Cooper?

  What about the eye contact thing? Did you work on that for Steven? You kind of like don't blink?

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Oh, that's, yeah. There's, there's, there's isms in there that, that, that are fun.

• 5:41Alex Cooper?

  How do you prep for that? Do you like look at yourself in the mirror and do that?

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Uh, no, that'd be crazy.

• 5:48Alex Cooper?

  Or would it be like amazing?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  That'd be nuts. I don't know. He's, he's, he has a lot of, um.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Things half are mine, half are invented. I don't know. It's kind of a combo of both.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  But he's very physical. Like he's definitely a different physical. He's a different walk. He has a different thing. He's very like calculating and still, and he moves kind of like that.

• 6:15Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Except when he's like angry and then he'll walk diff. There's like a lot of stuff that I tried to like play with.

• 6:21Alex Cooper?

  We love him.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  He's a shark. He's a, do we? I don't think so.

• 6:23Alex Cooper?

  No, I'm just trying to.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  You're just trying to like make me feel better. It don't, it don't play Kate.

• 6:28Alex Cooper?

  I'm just thinking like it's a lot.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  He, he's a, he's a, yeah, it's hard to like that guy.

• 6:34Alex Cooper?

  I read that you, and I don't know if you still do this, but you used to watch every episode of Tell Me Lies, like four times. You could go from like hating to then loving your performance. Did you do that for the season?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 6:48Alex Cooper?

  Why?

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Because it's got, it's gone too far.

• 6:51Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  I can't, I, I don't want to do that anymore. It hurts. It's very fun to, to study the tape. I like to learn from that. But then it becomes masochistic and you're like, it just gets, it's not healthy.

• 7:05Alex Cooper?

  Did you watch season three?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Briefly.

• 7:09Alex Cooper?

  Briefly?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:10Alex Cooper?

  I don't know what that means. What is briefly?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Like I'll do, it's like I, I watched it once.

• 7:14Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  With a, with a far lens, with like a detached lens.

• 7:19Alex Cooper?

  You weren't like directing yourself?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:21Alex Cooper?

  Like, why did you do that? What did you do?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  But it, no, but it creates a, it's very emotional to watch a lot of yourself. It kind of sucks. Do you watch your own?

• 7:31Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, but I've been now doing this for a while. Like in the beginning days, it was harder.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:35Alex Cooper?

  But it's not fun.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  I think that happened with Steven where I detached him unintentionally as it went on.

• 7:43Alex Cooper?

  Yep.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I think I tried to bring myself into him, but then as he became worse and worse, I was like, yeah, he's a character. I'll make him be a character and then I could.

• 7:54Alex Cooper?

  Then you can play with it more and detach. Um, I'm thinking about it, it being Wednesday. Everyone just found out that this was the series finale, not the season finale. And none of us had any idea that this was the end of Tell Me Lies. How are you feeling and how did you find out?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Really recently, a few, few days ago, actually.

• 8:19Alex Cooper?

  And who told you?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  So Grace actually told me and we were both in the airport. We were both in the airport in separate parts of the airport. We're in different.

• 8:28Alex Cooper?

  Terminals.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Different terminals.

• 8:30Alex Cooper?

  So far away.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Two terminals away. It's a new love story. And, um, and.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  I felt really, really sad initially, even though I knew creatively that's what was supposed to happen. That's what the intention always was, was, you know, it's, and it's a very perfect. We'll get into that.

• 8:54Alex Cooper?

  We're gonna get into it if it was a perfect ending. I do think it was.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  I think it's hilarious, but it, but it was very sad. I was sad and I, and cause it's like you're, you made a family, the cast was like a family. And then you, you also like lost a job. You didn't, but it also feels like a little bit like that. And it's been four years putting yourself into something.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  So it was like mixed bag.

• 9:24Alex Cooper?

  So did you guys have like a conversation with your castmates? Like, are you guys gonna have like a going away party?

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I wish, I hope, cause we're so close and everyone I think is emotional about it, even though.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  I don't know, you, you just can't plan for these things.

• 9:40Alex Cooper?

  Okay, let's talk about the finale.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:42Alex Cooper?

  I sat down, I had snacks, I was locked in.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:47Alex Cooper?

  I was like, how are they gonna wrap this thing up?

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:50Alex Cooper?

  In this, there's so many questions, like what's gonna happen with Pippa and Bree and Wrigley and you? And why are you marrying Lydia? And what that, like, there's so many questions. And then she did manage to wrap the entire thing up in the finale. How did you feel about it when you were filming it and then when you got to watch it?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I laughed hysterically when I read it.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  That we all did, cause it was like, oh, he, he wins? That's so funny. That's so cosmically funny. I am sorry. I think it's a big tragic comedy at the end.

• 10:26Alex Cooper?

  It's so fucking crazy.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hope everyone laughs.

• 10:30Alex Cooper?

  No, no, no, you don't understand. Did you, do you like look online when people are talking about the series at all? Because everyone said.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Not anymore.

• 10:38Alex Cooper?

  Okay, the only way that you, it would get, be a justifiable ending, everyone was like, Steven needs to die.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:46Alex Cooper?

  He needs to die. And then you like kind of won.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  That's so good. That's so funny. Not, not even like strictly, oh, my character like that's fucking hilarious.

• 10:57Alex Cooper?

  It's crazy.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Like you have the guy who's the, the object of the, of the torment or the, or the, the whatever, the aggressor. And then it's like very, it's not realistic because it's television, but it's a new thing. I've never seen that done before.

• 11:16Alex Cooper?

  Well, it's also really realistic of like, this sometimes is how it fucking goes.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, like probably not to that extent.

• 11:22Alex Cooper?

  No, hopefully not.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Hopefully not, but that's kind of how it goes. Like a lot of, a lot of, a lot of bad people win.

• 11:32Alex Cooper?

  How did you feel filming the wedding scene? That whole blow up and then you taking the mic at 3am and being like, one more fucking thing, ladies and gentlemen.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  It was cool. Well, it was 3am. It was like 4am. We were doing that all night and I had the flu. I had like a hundred and three, I had a fever. I was like sweating and sore throat. And they like juiced me up and I went out there and, and just blacked out. I just, that was crazy. It's crazy that that happened on that day.

• 12:04Alex Cooper?

  Who do you think made out the best in the show by the end?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Do you want to say it together? One, two, three, Steven, like.

• 12:16Alex Cooper?

  Motherfucker.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  I know.

• 12:18Alex Cooper?

  Cause I was like, okay, technically Diana, you're like Diana, like she got away. But on the Richter scale of like, who did the worst shit that then got out the best? Like, yeah, he got rejected now from Yale and they like got rid of him. But you got to do another one on Lucy at the very end. That was a mind fuck the gas station moment. I was like, literally go fuck yourself.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  I know. I know. It's twisted.

• 12:42Alex Cooper?

  And then you're the one holding the mic, like, like literally like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang to every single person.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  He just ices everyone in the room, smoked them. I had fun.

• 12:51Alex Cooper?

  I don't know how I feel about it.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Do you, are you like, yeah, like what, what is the response to something like that?

• 12:58Alex Cooper?

  I think that it weirdly, as I've had time to process it now, I'm finding that.

• 13:06Alex Cooper?

  At first, I couldn't decide if I wanted it to end where you and Lucy just like left in the car together.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  You thought that, did you think that that's where it was gonna end?

• 13:14Alex Cooper?

  I thought it was gonna end there because I was like, oh, and he's gonna fuck her over again. But then Megan made the decision, no, let me have you watch one more time him fuck her over again.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  That's the perfect ending to this show.

• 13:27Alex Cooper?

  Because why am I so fucked up that I low-key wanted you guys to end up together?

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Right, right. That's the whole thing.

• 13:35Alex Cooper?

  You're disgusting. You murdered someone.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  I know, and that's the whole, that's the whole joke.

• 13:40Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  And then, and then it's a perfect ending, like, this will never end.

• 13:44Alex Cooper?

  Okay, can you indulge me for a second?

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:47Alex Cooper?

  So I think, to your credit, you brought to life a character that

• 13:56Alex Cooper?

  millions of people are frustrated by, they hate, they've found some moments where they've like loved you or liked you, and then they go back to hating you and being disgusted. And now the character, we're done with. But I thought today, we could really finish it off strong. And you can get into character one last time.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Get into character?

• 14:19Alex Cooper?

  Hmm.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Oh shit.

• 14:21Alex Cooper?

  Get your posture ready.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Darn it. Yeah, right. Just my shitty posture. All right.

• 14:26Alex Cooper?

  Get, you're gonna get into character as Steven.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:29Alex Cooper?

  And you are go, I'm gonna give you scenarios from my audience, and I want you to give advice as if you are Steven speaking. So Steven, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Okay. Oh God, look at him getting into character.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Okay, um, so I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna answer your questions. Now I'm Steven. Okay, all right. I'm, I'm Steven, I'll answer everyone. Hey, how you doing?

• 14:54Alex Cooper?

  Hi.

• 14:56Alex Cooper?

  Can you adjust the microphone to be closer to you?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  I think it's fine where it is.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Sure, that will make you more comfortable.

• 15:03Alex Cooper?

  That'll make me really comfortable. Thanks. This is my show.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 15:07Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Steven.

• 15:11Alex Cooper?

  Someone wrote in and said,

• 15:14Alex Cooper?

  "I went through my boyfriend's phone last night and saw he has an active dating profile. Should I tell him I know? What do I do, Steven?"

• 15:23Speaker 01

  No, hold that in. Hold that in for a long time. Use it when you have to.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  You weaponize it. Wait until you're in a situation where he is in front of his parents and reveal it. And put it on a flash drive.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Wait until you're making love and at the moment of climax,

• 15:50Speaker 01

  reveal

• 15:52Speaker 01

  that you know about his dating profile.

• 15:54Alex Cooper?

  Okay, Steven.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 15:56Alex Cooper?

  So fucking, this is great. Oh, this is great. Okay, next one.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:00Alex Cooper?

  This is kind of really relatable to Steven.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:02Alex Cooper?

  "My boyfriend and I keep getting into massive arguments, but he never takes accountability for his actions. How can we move forward if he will never own up to the things that he's done?"

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Find the people who are in him. He holds to.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Learn his secrets.

• 16:19Alex Cooper?

  It's constantly like hostage.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Hold information. Put it on your computer. And then use it at a horrible time. I think that's, that's what he does.

• 16:31Alex Cooper?

  Why do you think that he gave Lucy back the tape?

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Maybe he was exhausted. He was like, I don't want to do, I'm bored.

• 16:39Alex Cooper?

  Bitch, I'm going to Yale.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's bored.

• 16:41Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. That's probably what it was. He was bored.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's bored.

• 16:44Alex Cooper?

  He was like, you look pathetic.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:46Alex Cooper?

  I tortured you enough.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's done.

• 16:48Alex Cooper?

  Now I need to find another thing to torture you over.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  He was over.

• 16:50Alex Cooper?

  Okay, we're moving on.

• 17:12Alex Cooper?

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• 17:56Alex Cooper?

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• 18:38Alex Cooper?

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• 19:22Alex Cooper?

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• 20:06Alex Cooper?

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• 20:52Speaker 01

  Okay, let's talk about Grace.

• 20:53Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about my girl.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  That, that's easy for me. I can, that's, I can relax.

• 20:57Alex Cooper?

  Well, when Grace came on here, she talked to me about how she kinda has this thing for like kinda crazy pajamas.

• 21:07Alex Cooper?

  And after she then sent me the video of her in the said crazy pajamas.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Which video, which vid you get?

• 21:16Alex Cooper?

  You took the video and it's her, she kinda looks like she's in, it's like a.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Is the one with the black feathers?

• 21:23Alex Cooper?

  Oh, no, not that one. I didn't get that one. It was, we didn't get that one. It was more of like a jester striped situation.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Striped situation.

• 21:31Alex Cooper?

  And I was wondering, have you, like, did you wear anything lucky last night to bed to prepare for this?

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Did I wear anything lucky last night to bed?

• 21:41Alex Cooper?

  To prepare for this interview?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  More people would ask me that. I didn't wear anything lucky.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  I wore my normal bed wear.

• 21:52Alex Cooper?

  Okay, what do you wear?

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Underwear and like, I like a, a tank top when I sleep.

• 21:59Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Just a little, like, not the full t-shirt thing and not, or I'll rip it off and go just underwear, just underwear.

• 22:07Alex Cooper?

  And I just want to clarify, like, I hope, I wasn't asking you, I wouldn't have asked you, unless your girlfriend told me. Cause I'm picturing Grace wearing her full jester outfit and then you in normal.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's in a, well, she wears the cap with the, with the bell, like Scrooge.

• 22:23Alex Cooper?

  Yup.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  She looks like Scrooge.

• 22:25Alex Cooper?

  With the elf feet.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Yup, with the feet and she's grumpy and she's sitting there with it over her breasts and then I'm in nothing and, and that's how we sleep. It works.

• 22:36Alex Cooper?

  I love that.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 22:38Alex Cooper?

  Okay, so that you wore like a normal outfit to bed last night. I love that.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:41Alex Cooper?

  These are the hard hitting facts that we need to know on Call Her Daddy. Um, when I got to interview her a few months ago.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:46Alex Cooper?

  Loved her. She's lovely. Um, she told me about how you guys met and how you fell in love, but she said that you were giving off very, very serious actor energy on the initial video call where you guys met. How do you remember that going?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Well, when you're nervous, you go into.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  A mode. Course. So when you're on like a big, she had the job, I didn't have the job. So I was in like a mode. I was in like a, hello, nice to meet you. And we do a mode. It wasn't serious, but it was like.

• 23:20Alex Cooper?

  Trying to get the job.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I remember what happened. She always trips up on this. She had the job. I didn't have the job. This is a very interesting conversation on power. And she said, do you need anything from me? Which is a very like actory question. Not to throw back on her, but that's very like, do you need anything from me performance wise? And then I think I said, no, you're doing great. No, you're doing great. Which if you don't know me, I can sound very condescending sometimes. But I do, I mean it genuinely. I can sound very like, like, good job.

• 24:00Alex Cooper?

  Right. And you're like horrible job. You're like, no, really good job.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? When someone's like, hey, you're doing great.

• 24:05Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  And so I think I probably sounded like a dick, but I really meant it. She was like, can I do anything? I'm like, no, you're great.

• 24:11Alex Cooper?

  Okay. So then you left that and did you feel any vibes?

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Romantic vibes? Um, no, we were pretty, we were, we were walled up. We were walled up. Um, she was, yeah, she, from the very initial time, we were both like in relationships. We were like, it was not like that. I think it was, it wasn't until everyone was open and we might do this job together. That's when we started, you know.

• 24:39Alex Cooper?

  What do you remember about the first time you started to have like, oh my God, wait, could I have romantic feelings for this person?

• 24:46Speaker 01

  When she texted me.

• 24:47Alex Cooper?

  What did she text you?

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Like, hey, like, what's up? I was, I was in, I was in Canada for some reason and she said, uh, it was like, you know, hey, come to New York. She didn't say like, come to New York, but she was like, what are you doing? I'm doing this for the holiday. She was like, oh, I was like, I might come to New York. And she was like, Something like cool and sexy where she was like, you should like you fucking should like with a fuck. You should fucking do it. Something like that.

• 25:15Alex Cooper?

  And you guys were already filming Tell Me Lies.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, I hadn't. I still hadn't had the job. It took me eight months to get this job. I had to convince so many people to let me do this job. It was very funny.

• 25:27Alex Cooper?

  Um, cause you're so good at the role.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Well, thanks. No, no, I, I, um, they just had to comb the earth, I guess, to find this. It's a very complicated guy and there was like a lot of dudes who did it, you know, whatever.

• 25:41Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 25:42Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  And then she had the job. I didn't have the job.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  And then I went to New York. And we kind of like talked about all the reasons why we shouldn't. Do it cause I don't have the job yet and then.

• 25:55Alex Cooper?

  Yep. Okay. Wait, I remember though. You said that you were dying to make the first move. But didn't have the courage to go through with it. What was going on? What do you remember feeling in that moment?

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Just like ripping out of your chest kind of thing, you know, that thing.

• 26:16Alex Cooper?

  And when she finally went in for the kiss.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Maybe that's a power thing. Like I didn't want to, sorry to interrupt.

• 26:23Alex Cooper?

  No, this is good.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  I didn't want to make a move because I didn't have the.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  That's not really it. But I can totally be a people pleaser. I can totally think I'm overstepping.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Maybe I wanted to.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Not step on anyone's toes.

• 26:49Alex Cooper?

  What do you mean?

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Well, like.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Like what if I didn't have the role? And then I kissed her. And then she was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now you're definitely not getting the role.

• 27:02Alex Cooper?

  Right, right.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Like what if I overstepped?

• 27:06Alex Cooper?

  So she kind of had to make the first move and she did.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Like, and that's not, these thoughts aren't going through my head, but I'm definitely.

• 27:12Alex Cooper?

  Wait, we're reflecting.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:13Alex Cooper?

  Mm hmm. That's interesting.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  You're probably like some subconsciously, I probably like.

• 27:18Alex Cooper?

  Tread lightly.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. You like her, but don't.

• 27:22Alex Cooper?

  Right, because it was a work dynamic also.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:25Alex Cooper?

  And that's how it first started. So it's like you kind of got a.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  She was my boss.

• 27:29Alex Cooper?

  She was your boss?

• 27:30Speaker 01

  She was my daddy.

• 27:31Alex Cooper?

  Is she still your daddy?

• 27:32Speaker 01

  She was my, she's my daddy. Grace is my daddy.

• 27:37Alex Cooper?

  I love that for Grace so much, honestly. You're like, I can't believe I said that.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's gonna, I know where that, that's gonna be on your thing.

• 27:44Alex Cooper?

  Just that.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  It's gonna be.

• 27:46Alex Cooper?

  That's the whole promo.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:47Alex Cooper?

  Grace is my daddy.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  I know.

• 27:49Alex Cooper?

  It's perfect.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  I know what you want.

• 27:51Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, just keep giving it. You're doing great. Okay, is it true that you let Grace give you multiple tattoos early on in the relationship?

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:58Alex Cooper?

  How, like, what tattoos and how many?

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Um, one, two, three, four.

• 28:07Alex Cooper?

  Now, walk me through that thought process of like, allowing someone really early on in dating to like, fully tattoo your bod. Were you nervous? Like, what if it ends?

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Have you ever done that?

• 28:19Alex Cooper?

  Nope.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Okay, I just.

• 28:21Alex Cooper?

  You're like, you've done it, right? I'm like, nope.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, you let someone fucking put a needle in your arm?

• 28:25Alex Cooper?

  Nope.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  No, okay. Um, I don't think, you don't think about the, you don't think about that. I don't think about a lot of that. I'm very impulsive. But that was also hilarious. I like, I liked it. Um, I liked, I, I liked that. Yeah, I don't know. You're, you're on the adrenaline of the courtship phase, plus, like, pain. And I was down. That was cool.

• 28:47Alex Cooper?

  How do you think that your guys' relationship has evolved over the course of the show?

• 28:54Speaker 01

  It's just gotten more adult. I don't know. It's more like,

• 29:00Speaker 01

  you don't think the, the ceiling's gonna cave in. You know what I mean? You're not like,

• 29:06Speaker 01

  I don't know. You start with a lot of fear in any relationship, and then

• 29:13Speaker 01

  you kind of get comfortable.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  And I think we've just grown up.

• 29:23Alex Cooper?

  Would you say you start with a lot of fear in the beginning of relationships?

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Or maybe I do.

• 29:28Alex Cooper?

  I was gonna say, what do you mean by that?

• 29:30Speaker 01

  I think normal people don't as much. I'm in a lot of fear.

• 29:36Alex Cooper?

  Why?

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Because I just grew up in fear. I grew up in a lot of inconsistency. So I didn't know what was going on a lot of the time. And so I.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Come at situations uh from a fearful place sometimes. I'm getting better, it gets better and better over the last ten years, but I absolutely go into things on the defense, thinking that it's not going to work out. That's how I approach most things.

• 30:09Alex Cooper?

  That kind of relates to you said recently in an interview that it's higher stakes to stay together for me than to break up.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  It's definitely more work and higher stakes to be with somebody.

• 30:21Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  It's it's way less pressure to to not more painful, but you have to like you have to want to be with somebody very, very hard, right?

• 30:34Alex Cooper?

  Yes, like do you would you say if when you look back at your past, were you more comfortable and relaxed being single because you're on your own and you're just dependent on yourself or do you like being kind of dependent in a relationship?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  I think dependence is the wrong word. I think it's important to not be fully dependent. You can be dependent for certain things like I like to be dependent for

• 31:00Speaker 01

  things that she does better that I don't do like she's better at so many things and it's nice to have a partner in that to do things that you don't do, but the the the dependent part gets tricky when you're like stop seeing friends or what you know what I mean? That's when you have to start and that's a that's an that's a discipline. That's an effort I find or maybe that's just where I come from, but it's a discipline for me to round out my life like it's a pie and you have to everything has to be a piece. And I have to consciously go to those other pieces so that you don't put too much pressure on a relationship.

• 31:40Alex Cooper?

  Let's go back because you just mentioned like you going into a relationship. You're like it starts in fear and then it gets comfortable, which I don't think is like a completely abnormal statement like I don't think that's.

• 31:53Alex Cooper?

  Not what people feel. I think maybe fear is like a pretty strong word to use. I think maybe some people are more like, oh, it's a little like, you don't know what's gonna happen and it's like exciting, but it's a little like up in the air and you're kind of like excited to see what's to come. And then eventually you get comfortable. You're like, it's fucking terrifying.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:09Alex Cooper?

  Which obviously relates to your childhood, growing up. Your parents got divorced when you were really young.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:16Alex Cooper?

  Your dad remarried three times, four times?

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Three, I think three.

• 32:23Alex Cooper?

  How do you think watching your parents' different relationships ultimately impacted your perception of love and commitment?

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Child of divorce conversation. Like, are you?

• 32:39Alex Cooper?

  I'm not, but I have interviewed a lot of people that are. And I also kind of feel like everyone's got their shit.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  It's all fucked up.

• 32:47Alex Cooper?

  It's all, it's all fucking weird. It's so weird.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  It's all weird. And now it's on us to, to say, okay, cool. I, I unpacked it. I figured it out. Goodbye. It's not me.

• 32:56Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  That's, that's the new, that is the thing.

• 32:59Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Cause we, therapy now, it's all, it's like,

• 33:04Speaker 01

  it's, it's too much.

• 33:06Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yes, like figure yourself out and then let it go.

• 33:10Alex Cooper?

  Before you figured yourself out,

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:12Alex Cooper?

  Did you have any patterns that you now can look back and be like, oh, that's just because of like what I was raised seeing that I thought was normal?

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you, yeah. You, you, I think everyone is like inherently a little narcissistic when you're coming up. That's just what it is. You're like, when you're a teenager, you're like, oh my God. And then you go to college. That's what these characters all are. They're, they're just self-involved. And, and, and you,

• 33:39Speaker 01

  you just, you start not making yourself the victim because you, you learn that, that there are consequences or that no one's coming to the rescue. And that you can't just make it about yourself and you can't weaponize your, your past and use that in your relationships with your friends. Cause people won't stay anymore. They won't, they won't stick. They don't want to hang out with you if you're, if you're, if you're doing that.

• 34:04Alex Cooper?

  But it is so fucked up because it takes you. As we all have done, like repeatedly doing something, whether it's a pattern, whether it's like jealousy or abandonment wounds or um being pulled back and kind of being like not emotionally available, whatever it is that you bring and then slowly you get the note enough from partners that you've been with. That you're like, okay, I actually have to look at myself.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 34:32Alex Cooper?

  And I need to address this.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Or you don't take the note and you're out here still just ripping.

• 34:38Alex Cooper?

  What do you think one of your notes has been?

• 34:41Speaker 01

  It's a great question. I'm, I'm, I mean, I'm, um.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gotta ban him and I don't know. I guess like I'm, I'm afraid of, I'm afraid it's fear. It's all fear. So I'm like afraid of, I've been afraid of men a lot of the time that like I've been afraid of um. Like male relationships I've had to work on because um I just had a, I had a more complicated relationship with men than I did with women. I was, I was kind of raised with my mom and my sister. So um, so I've had to work on, on that. Um, in relationships, um, I, I can, it's what I was explaining you're supposed to do is like divide your time. I, I can totally not do that and put too much pressure on a relationship. That's the big note.

• 35:27Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. I mean, I think that's really relatable too, especially if you have that instability growing up. And then you get to a point where you're like, oh my God, I found love. I found my person. Like I found this person that loves me and I love them. And then of course you don't want that to end because you're seeing real love and you have it right there and it's accessible. You're like, I don't want to lose this. And then sometimes you hang on to something because you're like, even though subconsciously you know it's not maybe perfect. You're like, but it's also someone that like loves you.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:55Alex Cooper?

  And so you're like, should I just stay because it's something stable? Or should I go because I know it's not right? And a lot of times with abandonment wounds, you're like, I'm just gonna stay. Or you leave first so that they don't abandon you.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  You get the jump on it. That's, that's definitely real too.

• 36:11Alex Cooper?

  How did you feel growing up about your stepmoms? Cause that's a lot.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Funny. The stepmom conversation is so funny. I didn't know him that well. I mean, my dad, my dad lived in um, in Franklin in Tennessee.

• 36:24Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  And my mom lived here and I would spend the summers and whatnot with him or, or weeks at a time, whatever breaks. I'd go out there because I loved it out there and I would hang out with these new. These new mamas and they were cool, you know, shout out to Deborah. You know, I didn't, I didn't know him that well, but I was like,

• 36:51Alex Cooper?

  Deborah.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  What's up Debbie? Um, but I didn't, I don't know. I, I kinda like, I kinda, um, I was a kid. I think you have a, um, you have a gut reaction to somebody who's replacing your parent. Like I think I gave her a hard time. I was like a child, but I think I like, you know, Deborah grabbed my arm too hard. But I think she was probably a, a, a wonderful person.

• 37:18Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  And yet I was like very adverse to, to change and, and same with my, my stepdad, my mom remarried. And like, we've always had a, a, uh, two rams locking horns just because it goes against your biology. But, um, but it's, they're also filling a very difficult role. I could not imagine marrying somebody with kids and just being like, these are from a complicated fucked up place, but I'm going to take care of them. That's weird. So.

• 37:49Alex Cooper?

  Right. It's like, when you get older, you then can have empathy for both dynamics. Cause you're like, now you're getting closer to the point where you can picture potentially being in more of like a fatherly role. Where when you were younger as a kid, you're like, oh my God, this person's going to replace my dad or replace my mom. And now you're like, whoa, that was a lot to walk into. Doesn't mean they were perfect.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  I just had this conversation with my, with my stepdad where I was like, I, I, it just crystallized recently of like, oh dude, that must be so hard.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Uh, I, that's, I couldn't imagine.

• 38:23Alex Cooper?

  You had mentioned kind of like craving the stability of a family unit, your entire life. When things feel shaky.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:34Alex Cooper?

  Where do you find, or where did you find that safety?

• 38:39Speaker 01

  In the, in the wrong places and then in the right places. Like you, you, you copy your parents. Like my dad was a, my dad was a very

• 38:53Speaker 01

  complicated, amazing.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Person, he was like, he was a, an incredible drummer. And music was my whole.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Uh, life and my mom is an incredible singer and we grew up. Playing so much music and, and I learned all about music and I, I've been playing drums since I was a baby and, um. And it's what I love to do. And I, and I took all those. Things from him. I also took his like work ethic, like he, he was a, he was a tour manager, he was a drummer, he, he ran shit. He's, he was a very disciplined guy and I, I, I have so much of that and I apply that to whatever I, I can. But then the, the flip side of that was, you know, he was on these. Big. Tours. And, you know, he'd get off these tours. And the lights would be off and it'd be quiet for months on end and. He came from an extremely.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Um. Hostile. Um. Upbringing. And he didn't have any tools to cope with it, not like we do in our. Time. And, um. And so, yeah, there's a lot, a lot of drinking and. And all that's under that umbrella and. And, um. And I, you know, I drank a lot with him and, um. You know, just a lot of drinking and smoking with dad. And so I, I, I totally like. Grew up. With an interesting. With a skewed perspective on all that and, um, and. And if I wasn't careful, I would let that run my, my life, especially when you start doing that when you're young.

• 40:31Alex Cooper?

  And when you have your parent. Being there with you when you're kind of doing that and it's almost like a bonding thing.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 40:40Alex Cooper?

  Cause you're, you're young and he's back off the road and you're like, oh my God, let's sit and let's drink and let's talk.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  That was it.

• 40:46Alex Cooper?

  And that's kind of.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  But you're like a 12 year old kid.

• 40:48Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  So that's, that's where it gets tricky.

• 40:51Alex Cooper?

  And did you ever feel like, cause it seems like you weren't always with him. It was like you would like visit and then you would leave like.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:57Alex Cooper?

  Did you? Feel like you really? Got? To know him enough or do you like wish that you could have spent more time with him?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Totally. I wish I spent more time with him. This is, this is what it is though. Um, we didn't talk for a long, long periods of time just because whatever life, but, um.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  But but I got to I got to be with him for for the important times um.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  But you have like an idea of your parent. Maybe it's like girls and their mothers or boys and their fathers, but you you they're like superheroes. And then you get to the age where you're like, oh. If that's Superman, we're we're fucked. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, no. And that happened. That's which happened. In the midst of all that chaos and and um and. And it took me, you know, made us strip apart and then and then we came together when we were both adults.

• 41:57Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. Um, I know your dad passed away a little bit ago. I'm so sorry.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  No, yeah, thanks.

• 42:03Alex Cooper?

  Um, how do you think your perspective also has kind of changed? On like your parents dynamic and what they were able to. Provide for you together, even though they were separated as time has evolved. Like, do you hold resentment? Do you understand how they what they did?

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. Not anymore. I had I had resentment for a long time and. Going back to that, like we that's what you weaponize. You you weaponize resentment. You're like, oh, this person fucked me up, so I'm gonna fuck you up. Hurt people hurt people.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  But not anymore. It's all love. Yeah, it's all. It's all good now. I took I took a lot. I take a lot from my mom and a lot from my dad.

• 42:48Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about your mom because. Obviously, you got to work with her on Tell Me Lies, which I remember I was a fan of her from Sons of Anarchy. I fucking love that show.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Great show.

• 43:01Alex Cooper?

  Um, how old were you when that was being made?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Like fifth grade, sixth grade. I was young, yeah.

• 43:06Alex Cooper?

  And your stepdad and your mom were both.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:08Alex Cooper?

  Working on that show. Interesting.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  So maybe I saw that happen, you know, yeah, parents working together was a thing, you know?

• 43:15Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  You know?

• 43:17Alex Cooper?

  Did you ever watch the show?

• 43:18Speaker 01

  I've seen parts of it, yeah.

• 43:20Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Was that a? Good or bad time in your life?

• 43:24Speaker 01

  It was great. That's an interesting question. No, it was great. I mean, it was cool. Like, that's. That was the big family discussion for many years was that show.

• 43:34Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  It's like if Grace and I had a kid.

• 43:36Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  They would be a, they would know, tell me lies intimately, even if they hadn't seen it. You know, I know everything about that show.

• 43:43Alex Cooper?

  When she decided to come on, because you had the role first.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:48Alex Cooper?

  What was your reaction to like, did you want it to kind of be your own thing and not have your mom be involved at all? Was there like a?

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Totally. There's a little kid thing where you're like, no, it's mine.

• 43:57Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  But then I thought, oh yeah, it's fine. No, it's great. I thought it was really full circle. And I thought she was, I thought Megan was kidding when she said.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  They want to ask her. I thought, I was like, oh, that'd be hilarious. And then they did and.

• 44:09Alex Cooper?

  And then it worked out.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  It worked out.

• 44:11Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Your mom plays your mom.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:14Alex Cooper?

  Your girlfriend plays your girlfriend on the show. How, and I'm sure you've been asked this before, but like, I need to ask you it myself. Like, how did you navigate not letting those two worlds of your reality to then the show get blurred together?

• 44:28Speaker 01

  You, you, you, you want to not let it blend, but I think it does. Just because.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  I'm. Like, I didn't sign on to this. I don't do this job because I'm. All there, like all together, you know, like I, I.

• 44:47Alex Cooper?

  I like that.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  You, you, you come, you do make believe for your job. You're probably a little fucked up. Probably. And so you take on a little bit of everything. And, um.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  And it was hard. It was hard to, hard to not let the lines blur.

• 45:07Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 45:27Alex Cooper?

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• 46:09Alex Cooper?

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• 46:54Alex Cooper?

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• 47:13Alex Cooper?

  I do want to go back to something that you were talking about earlier in regard to your relationship to your father growing up. You mentioned how alcohol was and became a big part of your life with him and your relationship. Do you mind talking a little bit more about how that influenced and impacted you?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  I think we all have

• 47:52Speaker 01

  coping mechanisms for how difficult all of this is. And

• 48:02Speaker 01

  it's different for every person. Mine, mine was thankfully more clear cut. Like I, like, I know a lot of the things that hold me, but there's so many things that hold me back all the time. But, um, it's so vast, the things that can fucking like, hold you back, right? Like, it's, it can be substance, it can be like, people, behaviors, food.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Lot, whatever.

• 48:35Alex Cooper?

  Everyone's got their thing.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Everyone's got a thing. And

• 48:42Speaker 01

  I think focusing on what that is and discovering what that is, is

• 48:51Speaker 01

  what, what makes you progress, like as a person in your career and your relationships, like that, that's what makes you grow.

• 48:59Alex Cooper?

  Um, for you, when you look back, like, you talk about fear. And I can imagine, I think when we have fear or we have anxieties, we can try to do things to avoid that. Like, how did you find yourself leaning into unhealthy coping mechanisms to like, avoid your pain or your fear?

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Well, fear, yeah, fear's the, fear's like the core fear and then, and then, and then anger is like a symptom and like, you know, drinking can be a symptom and, uh, behavior is a symptom. So like it's, but it starts with that, like, I'm not enough. I won't be enough. People are better than me. I'll be left. I'll be alone.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  I'm not good enough to be here or to be with this person. That's, those thoughts are like.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Those, those, those thoughts start everything. And then

• 50:00Speaker 01

  everything else is like a, I don't know, then you just start reacting.

• 50:04Alex Cooper?

  How do you think you got to a place where numbing those feelings?

• 50:10Alex Cooper?

  You eventually were like, wait, that's actually more unhealthy? Like by me doing-

• 50:17Speaker 01

  I just got tired. I get, I get tired of running on that. It's like you, you, you don't. It's exhausting to, to, to

• 50:30Speaker 01

  be unconscious. You don't even know it's exhausting. Um, and thankfully I had like, I had, I had a parent who got, like my mom got her shit together. She did. She got her shit together a long time ago. And I got to see that you can get your shit together. So I had a, I had a really great example in my mom. And I want a lot of things. Like I just want a lot of things in this life. I want a lot of family things, a lot of career things.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  And if something's stopping you from getting those, I don't, you don't even mean it's that simple. If there's, if you're being stopped from getting those things and you're seeing signs that you're not getting those things. If you're missing your audition, if you're like, if you're, if you're shitty on the phone, if you're reacting poorly.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  It's just like, you just gotta focus on it. You gotta have that self-knowledge though. And, and sorry, and, and like you have to consequences are what start

• 51:36Speaker 01

  pushing that into action. And if you don't have consequences, it's sometimes you can go on and on and on.

• 51:41Alex Cooper?

  That's what I was gonna ask you, like, when you were going through maybe one of the darker times in your life-

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:46Alex Cooper?

  And struggling and going through all these feelings of like, am I good enough? Am I not? And then leaning into unhealthy patterns because that would kind of numb the pain.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:59Alex Cooper?

  What were examples where you kind of had to face reality, whether it was people confronting you? Maybe you lost relationships?

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, you, you, it's both. It's, it's, um,

• 52:14Speaker 01

  you're subconsciously ruining everything. You just break shit.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Um, right?

• 52:22Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:24Alex Cooper?

  Well, and it's hard too, because like depending on where you're at in your life, like

• 52:31Alex Cooper?

  I feel like for social reasons, like it's so fucking confusing.

• 52:40Alex Cooper?

  If even if you're talking about like drinking, like it's so confusing because it's such a social thing.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:47Alex Cooper?

  And so it's like the fear of like, am I not going to be fun anymore if I stop? Am I not going to be this anymore? And it's like, there's so much that we tell ourselves. If we want to try to get better, you almost go to the negatives first before like, we know this is going to actually make your life a lot healthier and happier. Um, but it's so ingrained in culture that it's really hard to be like, can I stop this? Should I?

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Going on a date, like if you've drank on every date and then you go on a date and you're not drinking, like you feel like a alien and you feel like, oh my God, all my stuff is coming out and I'm not prepared for this. And, um, and, and this is also side note, these things don't go away when you take a behavior out of your life. The hole, the God sized hole is fucking there no matter what. For most people, I mean, for all people, for all people, there's a, there's a, there's a thing that we're trying to fill with people and places and things and money.

• 53:54Alex Cooper?

  Good point.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  We just are, it doesn't go anywhere. You just have to take out the thing that makes it destructive.

• 54:01Alex Cooper?

  Which is really fucking hard.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Which is fucking hard. And it's just substituting vices, right? It's not like there's one good one and one bad one. It's just what's working for you. If, if you're taking it out in your relationship, you, you're going to hurt somebody. If you're taking it out with substances, you're going to hurt yourself.

• 54:19Alex Cooper?

  For you, once you were able to be like, okay, I am going to try to move forward in life and like, give myself a healthier lifestyle, let's say. Um, what were some of the positives and negatives that you saw? Once you got that clarity of like, I need to shift my life. I need to change my, my actions to my own body and to myself.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Everything, everything changed.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Like, I wanna say that there were external things that changed dramatically, but there weren't. But there were, well, there were. I mean, you, you get, you're, if you're clear, you can, you're just better prepared for life and you can succeed and blah, blah, blah. But also you just, it's here. You just feel less like you're in trouble all the time or you're gonna, you just, you have, you have that ease. And that's what we all want is that ease. I just wanna feel okay.

• 55:24Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. You wanna see your shit come out. Stop drinking.

• 55:28Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  You'll get to the real shit. Stop drinking, you'll feel great. And then, and then that deep in the core shit comes out and it's like, oh yeah, that was there. I was just covering it up with, with whatever.

• 55:41Alex Cooper?

  How are you doing with the fears and the anxieties and all of that?

• 55:46Speaker 01

  I'm doing good. It's been a good, um,

• 55:50Speaker 01

  a long educational road, uh, uh, and, and I feel, I feel great. Um,

• 55:59Speaker 01

  my life has changed and I have a lot of, uh, a lot, a lot of love in my life and, and I, I care about people. That's the big thing. I genuinely give a shit about like how some, someone else is doing.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Which I didn't have when I was like younger and running on fucking Doritos and fear like I, I, you know, and that's the,

• 56:30Speaker 01

  that's the best thing to come out of it is like, cause all I want, all I want is to be like, um, like a worker among workers, like just fucking, just, I want the life to be like calm and serene.

• 56:43Alex Cooper?

  And I think sometimes when people talk about a darkness in their life, the beauty of it is it also brings such a, a light because it's like, it really forces you to go through a lot of fucking shit. But then you've been through a lot of fucking shit.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  I had to, because if I, if I didn't, then my shit would run the, I would, I wouldn't be working. I wouldn't be around people. I had to. That's, that's what I'm learning. You can actually just. Face the fear.

• 57:13Alex Cooper?

  It's amazing.

• 57:35Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Southern New Hampshire University. Daddy gang, let's get real, okay? We like to make our own rules. Southern New Hampshire University gets it. They let you learn what you want with over 200 career-focused programs, where you want with 100% online courses, and how you want with no set class times. Basically, you get to call the shots from day one. Visit s n h u dot edu slash call her daddy to learn more. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals or bold seasonal touches,

• 58:20Alex Cooper?

  Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. Okay, before we go, I want to end with like a couple of rapid fire.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 58:41Alex Cooper?

  What's the time you absolutely bombed in audition?

• 58:44Speaker 01

  All of them, so many of them. I've got like 150 of them.

• 58:48Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Other than you, which Tell Me Lies character is the most insufferable?

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Uh, Evan?

• 58:56Alex Cooper?

  That, that sounds like something Steven would say.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Well, I love.

• 59:01Alex Cooper?

  No, no.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  All like, but I just mean like factually based on the plot.

• 59:05Alex Cooper?

  Um, and also him with Bree's mom and getting the mom drunk before seeing Bree.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:10Alex Cooper?

  Evan.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  I think he fucked shit up again. I think he, I think he's actually.

• 59:14Alex Cooper?

  Evan, like.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Bad news.

• 59:15Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, he is bad news.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Oh, wait, insufferable. The teacher, Oliver.

• 59:19Alex Cooper?

  Disgusting.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Bad boy.

• 59:21Alex Cooper?

  Um, what is the pettiest thing you've ever done after a breakup?

• 59:24Speaker 01

  I disintegrated my Instagram.

• 59:27Alex Cooper?

  What is that even? You just integrated.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't just like delete, but it was like, delete, delete forever, destroy. And I was like, yes, delete forever. Type in password, gone forever.

• 59:39Alex Cooper?

  To yours, not hers.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  To mine.

• 59:41Alex Cooper?

  And you just disappeared.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  I just ghosted, because I was like, I didn't want to deal with seeing anything. I didn't want to deal with. Do I just, so I.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Did you ask destructive?

• 59:52Alex Cooper?

  What's the pettiest thing?

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Oh, petty? Oh, that's not really petty. That was more just like.

• 59:56Alex Cooper?

  Insane.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  But I had some good momentum going too. And this was, this was a long time ago. And I just poof, had to start over.

• 1:00:02Alex Cooper?

  Um, okay. What is the best gift you've ever gotten for grace?

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  Oh, I got her a.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  I got her a, I got her a little Cartier last year.

• 1:00:14Alex Cooper?

  Oh, ring bracelet necklace?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  Got a little Cartier ring.

• 1:00:19Alex Cooper?

  Cute.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  But I got, I didn't know it was the wedding ring.

• 1:00:22Alex Cooper?

  You got her the wedding ring one?

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  I didn't know.

• 1:00:24Alex Cooper?

  She's like, you're proposing.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  I, yeah, it was so funny. I, I was like, I didn't know that this was.

• 1:00:29Alex Cooper?

  Oh, like the wedding?

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  I didn't know.

• 1:00:33Alex Cooper?

  Oh, Jackson. Did she know?

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Alex Cooper?

  And she's like.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  No, it's a sick ring though. You don't have to wear it as a wedding, wedding ring. We just like have it on other, other fingers.

• 1:00:43Alex Cooper?

  Okay, that's cute.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Cute.

• 1:00:45Alex Cooper?

  Um, what do you think your two top love languages are?

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  The ones that I need are the ones that I give.

• 1:00:51Alex Cooper?

  Both, give me both. I love that you know that as a man also. Good job.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  I give acts of service.

• 1:00:59Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Huge time, big time. That's like how I show love. I'll do this for you. I'll do this for you.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  And then I want to receive words affirmation, affirmation. I want you to tell me.

• 1:01:14Alex Cooper?

  How great I am.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  How great I am. Let me tell you, tell me you like me still.

• 1:01:20Alex Cooper?

  Do you remember the first big purchase you splurged on with your tell me lies paycheck?

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  I bought it. I bought it. I bought a car.

• 1:01:28Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  I didn't buy a, yeah, I bought a, I bought it. I needed a new car and I bought a new car.

• 1:01:33Alex Cooper?

  What kind of car?

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  I bought a Dodge Durango.

• 1:01:35Alex Cooper?

  That makes a lot of sense.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  With the, with the Hemi. Very loud car.

• 1:01:40Alex Cooper?

  You're obnoxious.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  I'm obnoxious.

• 1:01:43Alex Cooper?

  Wait, so you're the one driving that I'm like, oh my god.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  No, but I'm not the guy who's like.

• 1:01:47Alex Cooper?

  But can you explain why to the sound? Like, what do, what do we need that for?

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Power.

• 1:01:53Alex Cooper?

  Power.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  No, no, I just love it.

• 1:01:54Alex Cooper?

  Men are so stupid.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  My dad was, my, my dad was such a car guy.

• 1:01:59Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  And I, I remember I showed him that I went to all these dealerships with my dad. And we picked that one.

• 1:02:06Alex Cooper?

  Cute.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Alex Cooper?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  It's a great loud car. Still have it. I'm surprised you didn't hear it pull into your.

• 1:02:12Alex Cooper?

  I'm happy I didn't because I would have roasted you at the very top of the show.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:02:16Alex Cooper?

  Um, yes, we're finally sadly done with Tell Me Lies, but where are we going to see you next?

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Where are we gonna see you next?

• 1:02:24Alex Cooper?

  Do you have projects that you're working on? Do you have things that you're gonna be doing?

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:30Alex Cooper?

  I know you can't tell me, but like, you're gonna be acting, obviously.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:34Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Alex Cooper?

  Have you filmed other things?

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  I did film something else.

• 1:02:39Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  I filmed something after the last season.

• 1:02:42Alex Cooper?

  And was that character so different than Steven?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Opposite.

• 1:02:47Alex Cooper?

  How did you feel about that?

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  It was awesome.

• 1:02:51Alex Cooper?

  Electric.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  It was electric. It was everything.

• 1:02:53Alex Cooper?

  Levity.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was super fun.

• 1:02:55Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  It was like very like, like natural.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Like bring yourself to it, like, like.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  True, true. It was very like truthful and natural type of acting, which was very cool. So it's like you could do that everywhere, but Tell Me Lies was very like a lot of precision and, and we're telling this story. And it was like a, it was a very different, like artistic, very like different thing.

• 1:03:23Alex Cooper?

  Amazing.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  And it was great. It was, you know.

• 1:03:25Alex Cooper?

  I think that's needed. I saw Grace on a red carpet being like, I think I need to play some like lighter roles. Like from like Lucy and Amanda Knox. I was like, girl, you deserve to like get in the car.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  Jail. She needs to, she needs to go do some.

• 1:03:37Alex Cooper?

  She needs reprieve.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Yes, she does. And she's the funniest fucking person ever.

• 1:03:42Alex Cooper?

  She's amazing.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  She's so funny.

• 1:03:44Alex Cooper?

  I am so happy I got to know you because again, like I didn't know what to expect.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:03:50Alex Cooper?

  We've seen such a large character be built and I agree. I can imagine you're like, loved that. Love what I did with that, but I'm excited for people to get to know Jackson.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:00Alex Cooper?

  Which I feel like we really did today.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  I think we got some good little slices.

• 1:04:05Alex Cooper?

  I think if anything, there's something, um, very calming to have watched this traumatizing show. And then have you kind of like close us out. Everyone's going to have watched it. They're going to wake up in the morning on Wednesday and they're going to be like, oh my God, I'm about to tune in this little piece of shit. Oh my God, he rode off into the sunset. And then we're going to hear from you and you're going to be like, hey guys, I'm Jackson, like.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Life was hard and, and I, yeah, like.

• 1:04:31Alex Cooper?

  And I'm here and I'm just hoping to, you know, have a good career.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what I hope.

• 1:04:38Alex Cooper?

  That's what I hope. I hope that too. And I can feel they're going to take that.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, good.

• 1:04:43Alex Cooper?

  Jackson, thank you so much for coming on Call Her Daddy.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:04:47Alex Cooper?

  This was really lovely.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  I had a really good time.

• 1:04:50Alex Cooper?

  Me too.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:05:06Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals or bold seasonal touches. Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross. Makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rawstores.com. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Klaviyo. So Klaviyo says it's your brand's best friend. Both claim, but here's the thing. Klaviyo knows your brand, your tone, your customers,

• 1:05:50Alex Cooper?

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• 1:06:32Alex Cooper?

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• 1:07:14Alex Cooper?

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