Short Stuff: Why does it feel good to be scared?

Fear is different than being scared, most notably because fear is generally a negative thing and being scared can cause an enjoyable thrill. We'll get into the difference in today's episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:07Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, sitting in for day. And this is stuff you should know. And we're here to answer a perennial question that everyone wants to know. Just why in the gosh darn heck do we make ourselves scared on purpose?

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, here, scare me real quick. Do something. Let's do a little exercise.

• 1:29Josh Clark?

  You're starting to look old.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  No, no, no. It's like really scary. Say boo or something.

• 1:34Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. That's gonna scare you more?

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38Josh Clark?

  Okay, boo.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. Oh, boy. As it turns out, that was really exhilarating and I feel great now.

• 1:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, you overcame a fear, a real threat.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is an interesting question, though. And thanks to our old friends at houseofworks.com as well as Psychology Today and the American Brain Foundation. Who have all, as well as other places, looked into that weird question of like you were talking about, like, why would anybody pay to go into a truly terrifying haunted house or a truly terrifying movie?

• 2:08Josh Clark?

  And like, yeah, we all know anecdotally or personally why, but like, if you step back and look at it from, you know, a rational standpoint, it makes zero sense whatsoever. Like, we're purposefully stimulating a, what's meant to be like a unpleasant experience, unpleasant response in ourselves.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. You know, we'll get into that in a second. We need to sort of delineate, though, like, what we're talking about. We did an episode on fear a while back. It was a long time ago, I think. It was a pretty good one, if I remember correctly. But we're not talking about anxiety. Like, there's anxiety and there's fear. Anxiety is the stuff that keeps you up at night, like existential threats, or am I getting old, or is our country being ruined, or is there a looming war coming to our country? Like, things that haven't happened yet that you're truly upset and anxious about is not the same thing as, as fear of something that is like, somebody jumping out and saying boo, something that happens right in front of your face.

• 3:08Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Right? So you got that. And fear is about something jumping out right in front of your face. It's about like, an immediate threat to your well-being, maybe your life, and it triggers the fight or flight response.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 3:27Josh Clark?

  So, a little more about that. When you have the fight or flight response, your pulse increases, your blood pressure increases, you just get ready to run or fly, which is the only time you can fly, is when you're scared.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  That's right. There have been people that research this stuff. There's a book that we want to shout out called Scream, scream with an exclamation point, from Margie Key and her colleague, Dr. Greg Siegel, who is director of, for the cognitive neuroscience program at University of Pittsburgh. But their description of what we're talking about, like, paying to go to a haunted house or something, or a really scary movie, is voluntary engagement with negative, high arousal stimuli. So in other words, it's like, yeah, I'll give you my hard-earned dollars to go into netherworld.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  In October and because the thrill of getting the doo doo scared out of me is like, I enjoy that experience.

• 4:28Josh Clark?

  Yes. So yeah, that's a great, great term for it. I say we take a little break, Chuck, and then we come back and we go step by step how this whole thing goes.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, let's do it.

• 4:39Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 4:56Speaker 02

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• 4:59Josh Clark?

  Sure.

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• 5:10Josh Clark?

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• 5:28Josh Clark?

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• 5:49Speaker 03

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• 7:12Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, so we're talking about fun scary, not fun anxiety. I don't think there is such a thing really as fun anxiety.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:20Josh Clark?

  I mean, I guess like an existential or elevated horror movie like that develops a sense of dread.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 7:28Josh Clark?

  But it so rarely pays off in a good way. It's, yeah, I don't know that there's a good version of it.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I agree.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  Like scary, the fun version, right? And one of the main reasons why we do this, it turns out, is because we feel a sense of mastery over this thing that overwhelms us because we're choosing to do this. That's step one, we're choosing to experience this scary thing. And by, by saying like, I'm choosing to do this, although of course you don't do this step by step, it just kind of happens. You're, you're saying like, I'm in control, I'm in charge. Yeah, I'm going in the scary haunted house, but it's on the premise that I'm not actually going to be stabbed by the screen guy. He's just going to come up like he, he's about to stab me, but he's not going to follow through. Some part of me knows that.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's always in the back of your head when you walk into a situation like that. You're like, I'm, I'm gonna be fine. It's not like the thrill that you get when somebody jumps out of the shadows to, you know, with a gun to mug you. Not what we're talking about. So that, that's the first step is you're like acknowledging that you're choosing to do this head on. So you've got some mastery and then, then the scare happens, whatever that might be, whether it's a movie or, you know, a haunted house. I'm trying to, this seem like the obvious ones. I'm trying to think of other ways. I guess maybe a scary roller coaster or something, if that's a big fear.

• 8:48Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's when the fight or flight kicks in and you're just flooded with, you know, some really eventually feel good stuff that dopamine and oxytocin and endorphins start firing and our, our heart rate increases, obviously, and our breathing and our blood pressure and everything. So that's like an exhilarating experience, like biologically for your body.

• 9:12Josh Clark?

  Right. So yes, like you're, you're amped, I guess is the way to put it, you know?

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. What do the kids say these days that I am?

• 9:22Josh Clark?

  Diggity toilet.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Skivitty toilet, by the way.

• 9:27Josh Clark?

  Sure, sure.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  I like diggity toilet. Let's start a new thing.

• 9:31Josh Clark?

  All right.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Boy, that six, seven thing went away like quicker than I've ever seen anything go away.

• 9:36Josh Clark?

  I was reading a book last, yesterday. It was crime and punishment. And I'm not just saying this just to show everybody I'm reading crime and punishment.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 9:45Josh Clark?

  But somebody mentioned something being like sixes and sevens. And I couldn't tell from the context what they were talking about. Still, I think it was kind of positive or something like that. But I was like, is that where that came from originally? Or is it just coincidence?

• 10:01Speaker 02

  That was coincidence because they, coincidence? Because they know where it came from, which I want for you to tell you that.

• 10:07Josh Clark?

  Well, it was a basketball player being interviewed. But where did he get?

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, I think it just came out of nowhere and it just caught on. But my whole point was that thing went away like in a matter of weeks. I think as soon as all the parents started doing it, like every small child, like I'm talking people my daughter's age and younger were like, no, like I did it one time. She was like, ugh, no one does that.

• 10:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I feel like that's a valuable lesson. If we are ever all annoyed by something that the younger generation is saying, we just start saying it ourselves. Just adopt it ourselves. Just for a week.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I love it. That's a good, we should test that out. But the next stupid thing comes along.

• 10:45Josh Clark?

  Okay. You got it.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  All right. So where were we? Fight or flight? Yes.

• 10:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So we're in fight or flight mode. I feel bad for the poor person who we're describing because they've been stuck in fight or flight mode the whole time we were talking about

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 10:57Josh Clark?

  But we're back person. So don't worry because now your body, your parasympathetic nervous system kicks in is like, cool out, everybody. Let's just mellow out. Nothing actually happened. The threat is gone and you can just feel great. You can feel relaxed. You can feel maybe even a sense of giddiness, you know?

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:18Josh Clark?

  Because you're experiencing something that you still, it's a, it's a transition between still having your fight or flight response going and the parasympathetic thing starting to kick in and take over. And while they're kind of, those levels are adjusting, it's a very specific, unique, fun kind of feeling.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And you can see that step, uh, literally coinciding with the, the next benefit rather, uh, which is like, you know, you're almost always doing this with like friends and family or something like you're out to have a good time with a group maybe or a small group. So you're building like a bond of an experience that was scary that you shared together. And like, you see it when people are exiting netherworld or when they're coming off of that roller coaster, this almost euphoria of the shared experience that everyone has. And you're all talking about it like, oh my God, that one part, that one room where the guy had the chainsaw and I saw like on your face, like you were about to doo doo in your pants. And it's like, it's exhilarating. It's a, it's like a high

• 12:17Speaker 02

  that you can see everyone like reliving the experience together, uh, and this bond that they created. That's just like super fun.

• 12:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it is. That goes, I, I mean, you mentioned oxytocin being released. That would explain that bonding, you know?

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 12:31Josh Clark?

  And also why sometimes you'll like press your face into the chest of the whoever you're with.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Hopefully the person that you're with.

• 12:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Sometimes those places are dark.

• 12:41Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  You don't want to, you don't want to do that to a perfect stranger.

• 12:45Josh Clark?

  No, you're like, oh, you smell like onions. You're not my friend.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  My friend smells like cheese.

• 12:51Josh Clark?

  So, uh, yeah, foot cheese.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 12:54Josh Clark?

  So, um, there's that feeling of catharsis. There's another, I think, great point, too. In addition to that whole feeling of catharsis that comes from going through the, that rigmarole. And that is like, you're in a, you, that, that scary place that you put yourself in on purpose. Right? The, um, voluntary engagement with negative high arousal stimuli. It's a place where you are, um, it's socially acceptable to do something like scream your head off.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:21Josh Clark?

  Um, and just let out stress. And that's a huge function that those play as well, that scaring ourselves play as well. Especially say like a roller coaster.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Like, you know, there's primal scream therapy, but a lot of people would say like, oh, that seems pretty weird. But that same person might go to a haunted house and scream their head off. Because it's like a socially acceptable thing to do. And if you're someone who is, maybe you have like real life anxiety. Or maybe you, uh, have, work in a place or, or in a situation in your life where you always have to maintain like a very high level of decorum.

• 13:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Uh, and, you know, go to netherworld. They should sponsor this thing, by the way.

• 14:00Josh Clark?

  I think so too. That's a great idea.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  We should re-release this in October and see if we can get another, another world on board. I don't go to those. Did you go to those?

• 14:07Josh Clark?

  No, they're too scary for me.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I mean, I haven't been to a real haunted house like that. I don't think ever. Uh, I think the last haunted house I went to was in LA. Like these people got together and did these really, really high quality ones in the neighborhood a couple over. But I'd never paid to go into like the, the truly horrifying ones.

• 14:27Josh Clark?

  I haven't either, but it's not because I'm, I'm too scared. I was kidding about that.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Why is it? You don't walk around in the dark with a bunch of strangers that might put their head in your chest.

• 14:38Josh Clark?

  I don't, I don't know. There's one here-

• 14:41Speaker 02

  I don't know either. Let's go to one this year.

• 14:43Josh Clark?

  Okay, there's one here if you're willing to come down. Some Universal Horror Nights, I think. It's supposed to be really good.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Is Yumi into that kind of thing?

• 14:51Josh Clark?

  No, no, she doesn't like being scared.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Neither is Emily. All right, they can wait outside while we go through.

• 14:56Josh Clark?

  Yes, that's fine. They'll have fun doing that.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 15:00Josh Clark?

  They'll drink lemonade out of those big giant novelty plastic linens.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 15:06Josh Clark?

  Um, I guess that's it for short stuff, huh?

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that means we're out.

• 15:09Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 15:13Speaker 04

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