Makeup Mogul Bobbi Brown on Reinventing Herself in Her 60s

In the late 80s and early 90s, makeup artist Bobbi Brown made a name for herself by pioneering a more natural look long before it became the dominant trend. She eventually turned her side hustle selling lipstick out of her house in suburban New Jersey into a billion-dollar eponymous makeup brand that changed the beauty industry. But her unceremonious exit from parent company Esteé Lauder, with approximately four years left on a 25-year noncompete clause, stripped her of the company she had built over decades and sidelined her from the industry. Now in her 60s, Brown has started over with a new makeup line called Jones Road, and she’s telling her story in a memoir, “Still Bobbi: A Master Class in Resilience and Reinvention.” Kara and Brown talk about how she changed the makeup industry and founded a second successful company, plus where she sees the beauty industry headed in the era of influencers and social media. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  Hey, is she here? I'm here. She is. Oh, there you are, Bobby. How you doing?

• 0:16Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is makeup mogul Bobby Brown. Brown first made a name for herself as a makeup artist in New York City in the 1980s and 1990s. She favored a natural look long before it became the dominant trend in makeup, and she eventually started selling her own line of lipsticks from her house in Montclair, New Jersey. She then grew it into a billion-dollar global brand, Bobby Brown Cosmetics. But in 2016, after 20 years of building her namesake company under the beauty conglomerate Estee Lauder, she left under less-than-ideal terms. And because of her existing non-compete agreement with the company, she had to avoid the industry for four years. But now, at 68, Brown is heading

• 1:01Kara Swisher?

  another successful makeup company she started called Jones Road. She also has a new memoir that just came out called Still Bobby: A Masterclass in Resilience and Reinvention. I actually use Bobby Brown products because I'm kind of her target audience because they're really simple and easy to use. I don't use that much makeup, to be honest with you, but my wife loves it, especially the main product, Miracle Balm. I think that's her best-selling product and some others because it's really simple and very easy to use and not fancy. I'm more interested, as an entrepreneur, in how she built her business. I often focus on tech people or media people. But cosmetics is a really interesting industry because it's been sort of rocked by social media and other changes and some department stores and everything.

• 1:44Kara Swisher?

  So to hear from a cosmetic entrepreneur like Bobby Brown is really interesting in what lessons she's learned. Our expert question comes from Lauren Sherman, the fashion correspondent at Puck News. All right, let's get into my conversation with Bobby Brown. Stick around.

• 2:06Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 2:50Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them ever talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try it today for free at Odoo.com/kara. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash Kara.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  If your best finance people are doing expense reports, chasing receipts, or spending time on month-end close, it's time to get Brex AF, a gentic finance that eliminates that work before it starts. Learn more at brex.com/af.

• 3:54Kara Swisher?

  Bobby, thanks for coming on, On.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Well, thank you for having me on.

• 3:58Kara Swisher?

  You know, you're well-known for, obviously, your brands, your makeup brands. But this is a book about your journey as an entrepreneur, right? The idea of what it's like to be an entrepreneur and how you become one. And even though a lot of the focus on entrepreneurship tends to be on tech, you were really innovative early on in this space. Your new book is called Still Bobby. It's your 10th, but your first memoir. And according to New York Times interview you did, this isn't a tell-all. And you say you were strategic with your words.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:29Kara Swisher?

  That said, the Times also noted candor is her calling card, relatability is her stock in trade.

• 4:36Kara Swisher?

  You're 68 now. You've found two successful makeup brands. You and your husband own a boutique hotel. And you say you didn't sign a non-disparagement agreement with Estee Lauder. Curious why it wasn't a tell-all. I bet you know a lot more stuff than you told here.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  You know, I'm from Chicago. I'm, you know, a nice Midwestern girl. And you know what? I was taught you don't need to hurt people's feelings. You just don't. And, yeah, you know, I also didn't want to come across like I was anger and bitter because I'm not. You know, in the beginning, when I left, I was all those things. And I had to really work hard to get the emotions out of my system. And, you know, it took me a good year or two. And nothing like another success to kind of get you over.

• 5:19Kara Swisher?

  Sure.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  The first, you know, I looked at it as failure. They canceled my work contract. And to me, that was being fired. You know, I didn't want to stay the face of the brand without having anything to do with the brand. So, you know, I was not going to sign a non-disparagement. But I don't need to disparage them. And there were so many good things. So, you know, I'll be happy to tell you any of the disparaging things when we're off camera.

• 5:45Kara Swisher?

  So you were going here not to do a, here's what happened to me and here's a lesson. Because sometimes, one of the great lessons of entrepreneurship is failure, obviously.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes, well, I've had failures. You know, I mean, I started a wellness brand after I left Bobby Brown called Evolution 18. We brilliantly launched at Walmart.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  It was not a success, you know, but it was a great learning opportunity how to have a digital brand before I started Jones Road. You know, I had a four and a half years left on a 25 year non-compete when I when I left the company, so I had to fill myself with things to do because my kids were out of the house. And, you know, what do you, I mean, honestly, what would you do if all of a sudden you couldn't work? Would you play tennis? I don't know what I would do.

• 6:30Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. So, but let's talk about a big picture view of the beauty industry. Obviously, that's where you've made your bones essentially. And it's gone through a lot of change in the past decade. The global market is worth approximately $450 billion and it's experienced rapid growth. But the pandemic changed the relationship people had with cosmetics. In the past decade, we've also seen the rise of celebrity-driven brands like Kylie Cosmetics and Fenty from Rihanna and a focus on inclusivity. And of course, the internet has played a big role in the industry's evolution and leaving direct-to-consumer brands. YouTube and social media are the perfect vehicle for this kind of organic contact around makeup. It's one of the most popular areas of those things.

• 7:11Kara Swisher?

  Talk about that evolution, where the industry was and where it is right now. Because you jumped really two feet into it, essentially. From being part of one that was sort of went to department stores. Talk about the evolution, a little bit of beauty.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, when I first started Bobby Brown Cosmetics in the beginning, the way it even got on the map is a friend of mine was an editor at Glamour Magazine. And she said, can I write about these lipsticks you're doing? And I was like, why would you want to do that? Now I know that was PR. And then I was doing a lot of magazines because that's how my name got out there and people heard about me. And then one day I met this wonderful woman at a book signing who told me that she thought I was, you know, great when she saw me on the Today Show. And she said, is there anything else you want to do? And it popped into my head, I want to be a regular on the Today Show. And she said, honey, Jeff Zucker is my grandson.

• 8:03Kara Swisher?

  Oh.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, so I got on the Today Show. I was the beauty editor for 14 years. And that was the first way to reach people. And to really grow consumers. And I never talked about my brand.

• 8:18Kara Swisher?

  Right, so you were taking advantage of the media of the day, the most popular.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Right, I I've always loved media and I've always loved teaching. Like what I do is to teach people, you don't have to look like that. You don't have to wear your makeup like that. You don't have to shoot shit in your face. Like, there's alternatives to everything. Because I really do think the reason people wear makeup is to not look tired, to not look stressed, and to just look prettier. And then, yes, in order to promote the brand, I would have to travel all over the globe because it was a big, giant company. And I would go into stores, and how many people could you see? A hundred, 120? And so I worked my butt, and it cost a lot of money, by the way, flying me and my team from one place to another. And then, when things started to change,

• 9:07Speaker 02

  and you know, some of the newer brands came on the market, like Glossier, which was the first kind of direct-to-consumer, messy hair makeup brand, that inspired me to try to do things differently. I couldn't get, you know, any groundswell at my old company. So when I left, I had visions of what I wanted to do with the new company.

• 9:28Kara Swisher?

  Which you couldn't do for several years, correct?

• 9:30Speaker 02

  No, not till I I launched, we launched Jones Road the day my 25-year non-compete was up, one week before the presidential elections, right in the middle of the pandemic. And we just turned on the lights and, you know, everything was different.

• 9:46Kara Swisher?

  And what was the methodology of, once you sold to Estee Lauder to sell? What was happening there?

• 9:52Speaker 02

  It's amazing when I look back, we sold Bobbi Brown Cosmetics to Estee Lauder after four and a half years. And, you know, I signed-

• 10:00Kara Swisher?

  After growing it, by doing all these-

• 10:01Speaker 02

  After growing it.

• 10:02Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, but after after having it for four and a half years, I stayed at Estee Lauder as a corporate employee for 22 years. And there is nothing corporate about me. So it was, you know, it was great. I learned a lot, and then it got really-

• 10:17Kara Swisher?

  That's 22 years, so there was something corporate about you, obviously.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  No, not, no, look, I'm not someone that breaks rules. I like to make up my own. But I had people there who knew who I was, knew what my value was, knew what my, you know, what I can add, and they supported me until things changed. And there was different people and- The industry was changing, right? It was contour palettes and, and all of these things. And here is a department store brand that couldn't get out of their own way. And I think the traditional companies really struggled for a while.

• 10:53Kara Swisher?

  Talk about the department store brand. Explain that for people who don't know.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  You know, a lot of people are in department stores. A lot of cosmetics companies are in department stores because that's where people shop.

• 11:02Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  And that's where they shop for makeup, or that's where they shopped.

• 11:06Kara Swisher?

  And that's how Estee Lauder.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  That's, that is definitely Estee Lauder, and that's how they do it. But things were changing, and people don't go to department stores anymore. I mean, I don't remember the last time I went into a department store and tried on clothes and bought clothes. I do everything D to C. You know, even if I want something from a department store, I go D to C.

• 11:28Kara Swisher?

  So you, when you, when you sold to Estee Lauder, though, they were, that was the, the paradigm. This was in 1995. They bought your company, Bobby Brown Essentials.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:37Kara Swisher?

  Which had started off by selling a lipstick deal at Bergdorf Goodman, too.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:42Kara Swisher?

  Right? Which, another famous and fantastic department store still. But you were an indie brand they bought. They couldn't do what you did, and so they bought you, paid you $75 million, and put you on this 25-year agreement, which seems incomprehensible today.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Well, we also had a buyout, by the way.

• 11:59Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  So, I mean, you know, it, there was a lot of reason for me to stay. It was financial, but also, I used to go to work like it was my company. I never really separated myself from my company. It was my baby and my, and, you know, my brand, which was really difficult when I left.

• 12:17Kara Swisher?

  Right. So what, what factored into your decision to sell first? And then, talk a little bit about your decision to leave, besides people changing.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:26Kara Swisher?

  Again, 20 years is a long time, but why did you sell in the first place?

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Well, we sold because, first of all, it was Leonard Lauder who, who made the contact. And, you know, Lauder was a much smaller corporation back then. They didn't have all the brands they have now. And it was really a family business. And it made, it was such a great fit. And my husband and I had partners that we started the company when we got into Bergdorf with. And it was a really not easy relationships. You know, we did really well together, but it was really personality tough. And I did not want to continue working with them. And that was a perfect way for us to grow the company. And Leonard Lauder said to me, he said, look, I know you want to be a mother and you want

• 13:14Speaker 02

  to spend time with your family and we can help you grow your company while you do what you love and the things you don't love, we will take care of. And, you know, that was the promise he made. And, you know, he also promised that I'd have total autonomy. And it worked really well when I had this autonomy. When I didn't have it anymore, it didn't work very well. What changed, the people or the? Well, people started to change and then little things happened. I mean, look, I could handle being encouraged or pressured into creating products I didn't believe in because I would always try to figure out how to make them right for the brand. For example, there was a lot of angst about me doing a whitening skin product.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  I mean, anyone that knows me, I will not do, tell people to lighten their skin. But I realized what they really wanted was brightening. So we interpreted and made it very on brand. And I always had a fight for things like not getting rid of the lowest selling SKUs, which were, you know, colors for dark skin. I'm like, guys, I'm not getting rid of them. When a woman comes to the counter, she needs to find her colors. So, you know, there was struggle, but then the industry started to change and I wouldn't do contour palettes because I don't believe in contour and I wouldn't do it. I didn't care. What do you have against contour? Why do you need to tell someone that they have to change the shape of their face? I don't. First of all, when most people do contour on themselves, it looks like they have dirt.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  It just doesn't look right. So, and it does, and it just, what do you need to change? Like to me, it's the same. My mother told me I was beautiful, but I needed my nose fixed. And I, and I remember looking at her and like, mom, I've never complained about my nose. You know, I don't understand why people need to. Turn themselves into something that they're not.

• 15:03Kara Swisher?

  Well, that's a bigger issue we'll get to later, this idea of things that are happening now. But I have been in the same position. Someone said, why do you leave places? I go, I don't like mama telling me what to do, essentially, you know? And I don't, and at one point when I left somewhere else, they said, why are you leaving? I'm like, I don't want to talk to you anymore. I just, I don't know what else to say as an entrepreneur. You're not doing what I like. When you go along with people as an entrepreneur, can you talk about this? Doing things that are sort of unnatural to you, like a contour palette or whitening stuff?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I won't do it.

• 15:35Kara Swisher?

  Talk about this, how you resist that. And you can't, most people don't, correct?

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Right, well, I resist it because it just doesn't make any sense. I'm very easygoing until you're making me be something that I don't believe in. I get it, I know, I know we have to increase our business. I know we have to grow our audience. I know we need competitive products. I know all of that, but it's got to be what's right. It always has to be what's right for the brand. And so, you know, look, I'm not afraid of guys in suits. I'm just not afraid, you know? So I have to, you know, be nice, but I have to just say it. It doesn't make any sense. It's not who this brand is. And I would have to, you know, stick to my guns.

• 16:19Kara Swisher?

  And you've said too many times you had to do that presumably. Is that what, is something, something send you over the edge? Was it contour palettes?

• 16:25Speaker 02

  No, would, would, no, because I wouldn't, I didn't do a contour palette. They did, I know they put one on the market when I left. But no, it's when they, when people, like, I used to interview every single person. You know, not every person, but most of the people I would interview. And when all of a sudden these people started showing up and like, hi, I'm your new head of international. Hi, I'm this, and I'm like, excuse me? I didn't meet them. Well, we, we, we think they're going to be the best for the brand. We think this, we think this. So I wasn't included in what to me was important, which, you know, was running and growing the brand. And when I left, it was a billion dollars. It was a growing, growing brand.

• 17:05Kara Swisher?

  Right, now, you're one of the number, small number of women who's lost control of their namesake brand around this time especially, because either they left or were pushed out. I'm thinking of women like Kate Spade, Jill Sander, Donna, Karen, Betsy Johnson. In makeup, there's Toni Koo, who founded NYX. Talk about this, did you see yourself in context of these other women? And what are the parallels and differences?

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's very, very similar. And when I, honestly, when I left, I thought, well, I'm done. You know, I'm done. No one's gonna ever call me up and ask me the heartbreaking questions. You know, the journalists, what do you like to eat for breakfast? Where do you go on vacation? I'm like, it's done. You know, those are the questions that I get asked. But things started to change and I, you know, I realized at some point that I was a brand, not just the company, that there was two sides of me. But it was a really, really hard time in my life. And, you know, looking back, I wouldn't trade it for the world because how do you grow? And how do you learn to get better? You have to kind of go through that. I mean, you know, there was so many emotions.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  And yes, I definitely saw similarities with a lot of these women founders. And, you know, it happens to men too, that have brands. There was like, I forget, I'm trying to remember the name of the guy. Was it Joseph Abud? Who lost control of his brand and his name? And then he tried to start again and they did everything to stop them, to stop him. My husband and I were following his case for a while after I left. So, you know, it, it happens, like shit happens. And then it's, it's what you do with the shit that defines.

• 18:47Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Like some people don't go back to work. Some people don't start something new. And, you know, my age was also a factor. I never thought about it. I'm like, all right, I'm in my 60s. Okay, that's okay. What else am I gonna do?

• 19:02Kara Swisher?

  Right. So in every episode, this sort of dovetails that question. We get a question from an outside expert. Let's hear yours.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Hi, I'm Lauren Sherman, fashion correspondent at Puck. Hi Bobby, congrats on the book. It's been a long time coming. My question for you is, you know, when creative entrepreneurs sell their companies, they usually have some sort of...

• 19:24Speaker 03

  Exit, you have to stay for three to five years, that type of thing. I mean, you sold in the 90s, so maybe it was a little different back then. But you stayed for, what, two decades at Estee Lauder? Which, as you know, we cover that company very closely at Puck, Rachel Schurgatz. And it's not an easy business, even when it was doing well. You know, it's a family-run company. There was a lot of succession drama with the family versus outside executives, that sort of thing. What made you stick around? Because you could have gotten out of it somehow. Maybe your non-compete was complicated. But you stayed. And I'm just curious, were there certain people in that company that made it worthwhile? Was it the infrastructure?

• 20:09Speaker 03

  Like, why did you stick it out for all that time? Because so many people who were in your position wouldn't have.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  I stayed for 22 years because I was really happy. And I was fulfilled. And I was part of this process of growing the brands and trying new things and doing things differently. I had so much support. Those were the glory years. And every time I see some of my lieutenants from the old country, as I call it, we just talk about the magic that we had. You know, we really had this posse, creative brains that worked together, you know, in PR, in marketing, in finance. I, you know, our CFO is the one that taught me everything I needed to know about business. And it was glorious, it really was. And then when it wasn't, I thought I could turn it around to go back.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  That I would, and I thought I would have control again. And it really took my 94-year-old Aunt Alice to tell me, Bobby, it's time. It's time. I've been hearing you complain. And, and I've been hearing you complain every time I talk to you. And you keep saying you're going to fix it. I don't think even you could fix this. Right, right. And that's when I realized. But the truth is, when I went in for the final meeting, I really thought they were going to come to me and say, here are all these great candidates we found to run your brand. And that's not what happened when I, when I walked into the meeting. So I was again naive.

• 21:36Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's interesting, the idea of complaining. I, whenever I start to complain too much, my family's like, stop it. And I, I have made that a policy now. The minute I start griping about people, it's my problem, which is hard. Now toward the end of the book, and we're going to get to what you're doing now in a second. You talk about a conversation you had with Leonard Lauder, you just spoke about after his 90th birthday. I should note, he died just a few months ago at 92. You write that during that conversation, you said, he told you, I promised I would take care of you and the brand, and I wasn't able to do that. Talk about that and what was your response?

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Well, we had this three, almost three hour lunch. It was supposed to be an hour. We stayed for three hours. It was, I hadn't talked to him since that day where I left, quote, got fired. But it was an amazing meeting of these two people that really loved each other and worked hard. And when I went to leave and say goodbye, he said, I have to apologize to you. And I said, for what? And he said, because I promised you I would always take care of you and your brand, and I couldn't do it. Which made me realize he probably said, don't do this, but they did it anyways.

• 22:42Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. What did you say to him?

• 22:44Speaker 02

  I said, Leonard, I wouldn't have changed a thing. First of all, I couldn't imagine being there now or when I left and having to fight to really fix things because the entire industry kind of turned into a mess.

• 22:58Kara Swisher?

  So it would have been a very different thing now.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. It would have been very different. And people are still coming to me saying, what if we buy Bobby and Jones? What would you do? You know, could you fix it? And, you know, the, I, I'm sure I could. Do I want to is a different story.

• 23:14Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 23:24Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news, and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want News fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace. Three times a week, hosts Kai Wright and Carter Sherman bring their expertise together to showcase different and engaging perspectives regarding the world today. They will use their collective knowledge to discuss the news, international affairs,

• 24:07Kara Swisher?

  climate, culture, sports, lifestyle, fashion, and wellness. Plus, The Guardian wants to emphasize they're not billionaire-owned, meaning they're free to report the whole picture without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube starting May 13.

• 24:28Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Delete Me. Have you ever Googled yourself and found your home address, phone number, or the name of a family member? It's unsettling. Here's what you do to clean up your online data footprint. Go to joindelete.me/kara and enter the code Kara. You get 20% off Delete Me. Delete Me removes your personal information that's being sold online. Delete Me was named the top pick for data removal services by Wirecutter, so you know you're in good hands. I really like Delete Me. I use it all the time. It's always surprising how much data people have about me. I am very privacy forward, and I still find so much stuff of mine online, some of which is incorrect, some of which is compiled in a really disturbing way. And you have to sort of control it like weeds.

• 25:12Kara Swisher?

  Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now, at a special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindelete.me/kara and use the promo code Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindelete.me/kara and enter the code Kara at checkout. That's joindelete.me/kara code Kara.

• 25:41Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Hers. Losing weight on your own can often feel like a fight you never win. Luckily, weight loss by Hers offers access to the FDA-approved Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. Wegovy is the first-ever GLP-1 weight loss medication available in a pill, but also comes as a pen, so you've got options. With Wegovy, you can lose up to 20% of your body weight. People lost an average of 14% body weight at 64 weeks in a clinical trial of Wegovy alongside diet and exercise. To get started with Wegovy, just go to forhers.com and complete an online consultation with a licensed provider who will determine if your prescription is appropriate. And Hers doesn't stop there. Nutrition and lifestyle guidance are part of the plan, along with access to 24/7 messaging

• 26:26Kara Swisher?

  with your care team, so support is always in reach. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/ Cara to access personalized, affordable care for weight loss, hair, menopause, and more. That's forhers.com/ Cara. Individual results may vary, and stopping treatment may result in weight regain.

• 26:48Kara Swisher?

  So, there is also reckoning sorts happening right now. Obviously, the beauty industry is relatively saturated with brands, and growth may be slowing. Some have folded. The former employer, Estee Lauder, as you noted, cut more than 3,000 jobs this year and says it closed to 4,000 more. Other major cosmetic companies are making similarly big cuts. Talk a little bit about the beauty industry in a larger sense over the next five to 10 years, as you look at it.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, I was really worried when we were going to launch a new brand. Like, am I a one-hit wonder? Am I going to fail at this? Yeah, I was worried about that, but it didn't stop me from doing it. The industry has changed so much, and there are, you know, so... It's easy to start a brand. It's not difficult. There are so many ways to do it, and people are doing it. Some are successful, some are not. You know, a lot are struggling, trying to figure it out. And being in business, it's not easy, and it's always problems. I don't care what business you're in. That's part of being in business. And, you know, our success and our growth has been amazing. You know, at some point, it was meteoric.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  And it has slowed. So now we are like, you know, have had a work on, we're still growing. We're just not growing like we were in the first couple of years. And so, you know, five years has turned it into a real business. But I'm, I'm not in a rush. I'm not, I don't worry when things get a little slower because it's time to sit back and say, okay, what's working? What's not working? How could we do something a little better, differently? And, you know, it's, it seems to be working again.

• 28:26Kara Swisher?

  As you mentioned, the day your non-compete ended, you launched your new makeup line, Jones Road. It was October 2020, as you said, in the middle of the pandemic, and you did it without any outside investors. What was the thinking behind it at that moment? And what were you trying to go for? You named it after a road in the Hamptons, is that correct?

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Yes, I, we, we needed, I mean, in order for me to launch it on the day I wanted to, I needed a name that weekend because no matter how many people we hired and friends that were helped naming couldn't come up. I mean, Gloria Steinem was helping me name this company. We couldn't come up with a name. You know what? I don't remember her names. She had a whole bunch, but you know, one of these days I gotta go find it.

• 29:04Kara Swisher?

  What one was the second to Jones Road?

• 29:07Speaker 02

  You know, Just Enough.

• 29:08Kara Swisher?

  Oh, no.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  But if I would have said Jones Road, you would have said no too. It doesn't make any sense. You know, my father said, oh, it's a terrible name. And now he loves the name. So you get used to it. It's like naming, naming a kid.

• 29:21Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, no, I named Pivot. I named Pivot. Everyone didn't like it. So.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that name. How do you, you know, that's the best name. So, you know, we, we really thought, you know, why not just do this? And I thought, well, I'm not done teaching. And I had something new to teach. I wanted to teach women, and men, but mostly women, that you don't need all that stuff to look good.

• 29:47Kara Swisher?

  Which you had done before, correct?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  I had done before in the beginning, but by the time I left, we were teaching 10-step makeup routines. And all, you know, you, of course, you need a starter and a finisher. And that's what the pressure to grow the company is, new products that maybe are not necessary. So I wanted to kind of clean the slate, start all over again, and just like teach women how all you need is the minimum. Of course, as we're growing, we're coming up with new amazing products. But I'm teaching women, you don't have to use them all. They're here if you need them for different things.

• 30:22Kara Swisher?

  And that was the concept behind Joan's Road.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  It's the concept is how you could look like yourself and how to have. I love a glow in the skin, like my aesthetic, the models always have positivity coming out of their eyes, then they have good skin and and they're not all models.

• 30:38Kara Swisher?

  Right. So one of the other things you've done is target a certain area that others weren't targeting. A lot of things are targeted just to youth, for example. Now Joan's Road does well with women over 50, Gen X, elder millennials. It's sort of at a forefront of this trend. There's been a big, obviously awakening about perimenopause with women like Oprah, Pamela Anderson and Julia Louis-Dreyfus leaning into it. But there aren't a lot of makeup companies actively targeting the demographic. Was it a conscious decision on your part to take advantage of the trend or it's just born out of your own experience?

• 31:11Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it was more born out of my own experience at the beginning. I wanted to make sure that I had all skin colors covered. I wanted to have age covered. And I'll never forget, because I walked around the Hamptons looking for a woman, I had this vision, a woman of a certain age with like grayish hair and no work done in her face. Not an easy thing, not an easy thing, especially in the Hamptons.

• 31:34Kara Swisher?

  I don't know why you thought you could find that there.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  But I did. I found her at a farm stand. She had this long gray hair, this beautiful face. She's a mother of five kids. She's got like, you know, a tattoo on her finger. Like, I also wanted to show interesting, cool looking people and honestly, show the difference. This is no makeup and look at, look at this. And it's not like a big makeover. Like, you see all this makeup. They just look so much better. So it started, you know, it started that way.

• 32:03Kara Swisher?

  So what did you say to this woman at the farm stand?

• 32:05Speaker 02

  I said, could you take your mask off? And she looked at me and I said, I'm Bobby Brown. And I was, you know, I was still under a non-compete. So I said, I'm Bobby Brown. And I said, I sometimes do shoots. Would you be interested in coming to model for me? And she said, well, people usually say something about my hair. And we tried it and I loved her. And then I brought her into our studio in New Jersey during the pandemic. We did our first big shoot. And then she ended up getting Will Amina to represent her. So it was a big career change for her. She's not at the farm stand anymore.

• 32:38Kara Swisher?

  But what you were, the idea was that you were going for different looks that weren't being, because most of targeting is young people, glossy kind of. Fell on that sword in a lot of ways.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, I don't see age. I really don't. I see people wanting to look good. And I know I'm of a certain age, but I know my daughter in laws who are in their, you know, early to mid 30s, they're also, that age group is also customer. I think that's, is that an older millennial or a millennial?

• 33:06Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  So, you know, and yes, I'm not targeting 18 year olds. And I think the book is going to reach a lot of women in their, who are just entering the workforce and are trying to figure out their life and their work balance, which there isn't such a thing, as you know. But to me, any woman is a customer. And yes, the women my age really shops big in the beginning, for sure.

• 33:35Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 33:44Speaker 04

  Support for this show comes from Indeed. When the pressure's on and you need to hire the right person for the job, Indeed Sponsored Jobs has got your back. Instead of forcing you to spend tons of time searching, Indeed Sponsored Jobs matches you with quality candidates, fast. According to their data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is the job for Indeed Sponsored

• 34:25Speaker 04

  Jobs. And listeners to this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

• 34:55Speaker 05

  If you're looking to hire, you need Indeed. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, you can spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help your job get the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

• 35:40Speaker 06

  Are you a pet owner? Every six seconds, a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill over $1,000. Always an unwelcome surprise. That's where Fetch comes in. Fetch is the most complete pet insurance for dogs and cats, according to consumeradvocate.org. You get paid back up to 90% of vet bills at any vet in the US and Canada with claims paid back in as little as two days. Go to fetchpet.com/save right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.com/save.

• 36:19Kara Swisher?

  Now, you're also great at social media and your personal accounts have over 1.4 million followers on Instagram and TikTok and you're on Substack and YouTube. And a few years ago, you went viral when an influencer with millions of followers left a negative view on one of your foundation products. She was using it wrong and you responded with your own video, parroting her and quadrupled your sales. Talk about the creator economy built by makeup artists and beauty influencers. YouTube and social media transformed cosmetics in a way that would have been impossible to predict when you were starting Bobby Brown Cosmetics.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  Oh, I think it's so much fun. Like, this is not, I don't do this because it helps the brand. I know it does. Of course it does. I find it fascinating and interesting.

• 36:59Kara Swisher?

  Tell me why.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Because you get to connect with people that you wouldn't normally connect with. And I tend to make friends on Instagram. It's really, I admire someone, I say something, they're like, "Oh, my God, I admire you back." And you just start this, like, I'm up, hop on the phone with someone, and, and they can't believe they're talking to me. I can't believe I'm talking to them. And it wouldn't have happened, you know, I'm not going to call and say, "Do you want to have lunch date?" Like, I don't go out to coffee. I don't go out to tea. I don't meet people for drinks. But I could connect with people on my social media.

• 37:33Kara Swisher?

  Talk about it as a business plan, because like, there's all these new makeup brands, right? And they're mostly small. Let's be clear. Most of these things are pretty small. Talk a little bit about how it affects, because you have all the makeup influencers, you have people testing. You yourself were answering questions from, from users constantly.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Right. Well, it's, it's honestly everything. So you know right away when people are struggling with one of your new products. You know, we first launched Miracle Balm, and people are like, "There's no color."

• 38:02Kara Swisher?

  Explain what Miracle Balm is for people. This is my wife's favorite thing you make.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  All right. Miracle Balm is one of the products that we launched with. And it's this little tub of, of makeup that is a skincare. It's color. It could either be a tint. It could be a blush. And this is so good for women of a certain age, because when you just look dry, and you put makeup on, and just something doesn't look good, and you don't know why, you're probably tired. But you take this Miracle Balm, and you have to dig your finger through the top of it, which we call "break the seal." Then you put it on your fingers, put it on your skin, and all of a sudden, you look so much better. I put it on my neck, sometimes on my hands, gets the

• 38:45Speaker 02

  flyaways, and it's, became one of our biggest products early on. So that's Miracle Balm.

• 38:51Kara Swisher?

  So does some people, like, for example, and you pushed up against people, love it, like my wife, and other people do not.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Hate it. Right, right.

• 39:00Kara Swisher?

  You kind of leaned into the hate too, correct?

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Well, you know what? It's about being honest and communicative. So not everyone's gonna like this. If you have oily skin, it's not gonna be good for you. So then we came out with a face powder and I said, all right, guys, if you wanna, if you have oily skin and wanna use Miracle Balm, after you do your foundation, put powder on, then take Miracle Balm only on the tops of your cheek for a little highlighter. That's how you use it. So, you know, I use my, my education, my educational ability to teach women how to use the makeup. And Jones Road is made not for makeup artists. It's made for women to be able to do their makeup in a car, in a pinch, you know, whatever it is.

• 39:45Kara Swisher?

  And when you think about that, the power of social media in terms of where cosmetics is, what's the game now online from your perspective? What has changed?

• 39:55Speaker 02

  I mean, honestly, just realness. The game is realness. The game is how do you get people engaged, right? It's not anymore the fabulous things. It's the real things, I think, that get people engaged. At least people that are gonna love Jones Road. Not everyone's gonna love Jones Road. I mean, you know, my, my aesthetic is my aesthetic and Jones Road really shows that. But some people still like different kind of makeup.

• 40:22Kara Swisher?

  And how do you, how do you then compete in sort of this celebrity-driven culture? You know, Rihanna, Kim Kardashian, whoever it happens to be is selling makeup or et cetera.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  I don't try to compete. You can't, you can't. I cannot compete with a Rihanna or a Kardashian. I can't. Their audience, their platform is way different. And, you know, Selena Gomez, she has a great brand. Like, a lot of these, you know, successful celebrities have done it, but a lot of them have not done it. Have tried and it hasn't worked.

• 40:55Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. What, who are you impressed with right now, especially online in the makeup game? Besides yourself?

• 41:01Speaker 02

  I don't know her, but Hailey Bieber has done a phenomenal job at Road.

• 41:05Kara Swisher?

  Explain why.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  I don't know why. I think because she's so beautiful, her products are very simple, and she has a giant platform. And, you know, she's got these beautiful big lips, and when she goes and draws them in, you know, I can't stop staring at her. I know a lot of young girls are obsessed with her. Women my age are not looking at Hailey Bieber, but I think she's done a phenomenal job.

• 41:34Kara Swisher?

  Of course, she's a sole part, you know, which is, how do you think that, what do you think of deals like that?

• 41:40Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it's, you know, good on her. I think it's, you know, I know from my experience, it's not going to be all magic. It's going to be tough. I mean, I have so many friends that have started brands, you know, sunscreen brands and, you know, skincare brands, undergarment brands, and one by one, they sell it, and it just doesn't work out.

• 42:00Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it often doesn't. It often doesn't. So Jones Road has a few physical stores, but the sales are mostly online, correct?

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Yes, we're about 10 to 15% our stores. We have 12 stores right now, and we're opening them quicker than I'm comfortable with.

• 42:17Kara Swisher?

  Why?

• 42:18Speaker 02

  I don't know, because my, you know, I just, I like to nurture every little thing, but now I have someone that, you know, people that will nurture those things. And, you know, my, my son, I don't know who raised this kid, but he's like, you know, he's, he's, he's quick.

• 42:33Kara Swisher?

  He's quick. So you mostly bet on direct to consumer, and you avoid places like Sephora, Ulta, and other big department stores.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  We have one retail account, and that's Liberty in the UK.

• 42:45Kara Swisher?

  And why is that? Why did you avoid the Sephoras and everything else?

• 42:50Speaker 02

  I've been there, done that.

• 42:51Kara Swisher?

  Explain what that means.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  It means it's, it's a whole different business model when you are in retail, and there's deliverables, and there is, you know, costs and fees that we don't have in direct to consumer. We own our customer. When you're part of another retailer, they own the customer. So there's so many things, and, you know, you don't have to share the profit with people. So we don't have to. I'm sure someday Jones Road will be, maybe one day, if and when it gets acquired, it would be on the table for whoever bought us, but we're not even thinking about that right now.

• 43:28Kara Swisher?

  Is that your goal, to sell again?

• 43:30Speaker 02

  No, no, it is not my goal, but I know who, you know, I know who doesn't think about the possibilities, you know, and, and who would it be? And, and, you know, I, I know there's not a third makeup brand in me. So this is my love. And if, and if we did sell it, honestly, it would have to go to someone who's a really strategic partner and would understand and give me another 20 something years.

• 43:53Kara Swisher?

  Right. You're also, one of the things that's the through line in the book, away from business, you're very candid in the ways you always felt insecure about your appearance. It's something a lot of women can relate to. But young people today have a lot to contend with. There's pressure to look perfect from social media and celebrities like the Kardashians have ultra-normalized plastic surgery. Dermatologist report they're seeing more teens and tweens using anti-aging skincare products like letinol. There's also AI and Ozempic. As someone who's built a career around the natural look, who fought against pressure to create products like skin whiteners, like we talked about, talk about these trends and talk a little bit about your own journey, because it, it's a through line in the book.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Right. Well, it's a through line in everything I do, you know, growing up in, you know, the suburbs in Chicago with my tall friends who, you know, A were all on

• 44:39Kara Swisher?

  the student. You're not a Barbie, you said.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  I'm not. I'm five foot tall. I'm not a Barbie. And, you know,

• 44:43Kara Swisher?

  Well, you're Skipper. You are Skipper.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Okay, I could be Skipper. Or maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm Mary Ann. I don't know. But, you know, I was, I was always insecure about the way I looked. And now I look back and I'm like, I was so frigging cute in seventh grade. What was wrong with me? But, you know, it's a typical thing that people go through. And I think it helped me understand what confidence is. And I've always been someone that teaches confidence, which to me is just people that are comfortable in their skin and who they are. That's confidence. It's really just being comfortable. But, you know, a big moment for me growing up, and I talk about her all the time, was Sing Love Story with Ally McGraw. Because she

• 45:25Speaker 02

  was the first, like brunette, beautiful, outdoorsy, natural-looking girl. And, you know, she was a big role model for me.

• 45:33Kara Swisher?

  Beauty model. Because she was simple. Yeah, because she was natural.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:36Kara Swisher?

  Unusual-looking, not, not pretty. Well, she was beautiful, but, you know, a different kind of pretty. A different kind of pretty.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:43Kara Swisher?

  So talk about young people today, the sort of what's, how you look around at the, the way things are presented to young people. There is a lot of young people using these anti-aging skincare products in a more intense and maybe desperate way, it feels like.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it's pretty crazy, you know, what has happened in beauty society.

• 46:03Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  You know, like, try to find a young girl who has natural lips. It's really hard. Everyone thinks it's okay to get your lips done, and it's not. And yes, young girls don't need retinol. I mean, I liked playing with my mother's makeup when I was a kid, but it wasn't my beauty routine. And it's unfortunate, but because of social media, it's so available to anyone. So I think it's tough, and, you know, I'm just glad that I have three boys.

• 46:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  That I didn't have to raise a girl, because it would be tough.

• 46:36Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I have a daughter. Yeah, I have one daughter. I worry about it. But in terms of where it's going, who is leading beauty standards going forward? Who do you think represents where it's going? Or is it just so dissipated, like everything else, like all media? It used to be Glamour, Vogue, Cosmo, right? Or four department stores. Now it's everywhere.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like a rain shower. It's coming, it's really coming from everywhere. I try to be a voice. I've written two teenage beauty books, trying to help girls feel good about who they are and not comparing yourself. And again, both those books were written before social media. So, you know, I know another book is in me to write, a young woman or a teenage book. But I think they're getting it from all different, from their friends, but they're getting it from not the best places on social media. And I don't know how, you know, a mother or a parent is going to, you know, prevent that.

• 47:34Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, but there is no lauder. There's no, there doesn't seem to be anyone leading, correct? From, from the old brands, certainly.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Um, no, I don't think so. There's, what was it, like Yardly? When I was a kid, that was for young girls, and I don't even remember what the other brands.

• 47:50Kara Swisher?

  Clinique.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, Clinique was not for young girls. It was for like college, college girls, or, you know, going into the workforce. So I, you know, there's a lot of, of. Teenage brands right now. There's a lot of brands that are marketing to seven-year-old girls. There was a skincare brand that was just had 80,000 fans show up at the Meadowlands from this one like social media girl. 80,000. Like I saw the pictures. It's not even believable how mothers would take their, you know, eight-year-old and 10-year-old kids, 80,000 of them to show up to buy this skincare product.

• 48:30Kara Swisher?

  How do you figure out what new products you should have? Obviously, you're not going to have 80,000 people in the Meadowlands would be my guess.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I listen to people. I mean, I listen both online and when I go into a store, what people are struggling with and what do they need. I never have a loss for ideas. I have a lot of products in the pipeline. You know, I see things out there and I'm like, oh, my God, this color is amazing, but what if we did this? You know, being an entrepreneur, that's how I think about makeup. What if this was this and this had this? So, you know, I don't want to overload Jones Road assortment because I like to keep things simple, but I also love creating products. So, you know, we have a new lipstick we just launched, kind of a celebration.

• 49:15Kara Swisher?

  Back to lipsticks?

• 49:16Speaker 02

  We launched a new lipstick with the book. We launched a lipstick, 12 colors, and they're all like nude colors of the lips. So it was kind of a full circle moment for me. And we talk about how I even got these original lipsticks out in the marketplace. So, you know, you have to discontinue things. Like we had, you know, we had to discontinue a whole category of lipsticks because I don't want four of them. I want one or two of them.

• 49:44Kara Swisher?

  Is there any product that you absolutely want to have for Jones Road?

• 49:47Speaker 02

  I'm very excited. We have two different, higher, fuller-coverage concealers that work when you're really tired that don't get in the lines. So that's kind of a lot of what I'm focusing on now is is things that have a little bit more. A little bit more coverage, but they don't look bad. They actually look good because most things, most concealers, you go in a store, buy a concealer, you look terrible.

• 50:12Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  It doesn't look good. So I'm all about the feel and the texture.

• 50:16Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  And after all these years, I'm still excited about it. That's what's so weird.

• 50:20Kara Swisher?

  Well, then you can stop when you're done being excited.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:23Kara Swisher?

  So my last question, you obviously started a company from your house in suburban New Jersey. You scaled it, you sold it, left it, waited out, you're going to non-compete, start a new company and found success again. It's hard to do it twice, that's for sure, for most people. I'd love you to give some people who are young entrepreneurs, or any entrepreneurs of any age, actually, what you think the key lessons that you would impart to them are as an entrepreneur.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  First of all, to breathe. Like, no one tells entrepreneurs to breathe. You have to breathe.

• 50:53Kara Swisher?

  No, you're supposed to hustle, my friend.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  No, you have to breathe. Like, you'll have to breathe because everyone is such, "I need a series A, I need a series B, I got..." No, calm down. You need to nurture this baby. You need to understand what your brand is. A, you need to understand what it means to work in an office with people or out of your house. I tell many young entrepreneurs, "Go get a job. I don't care if it's for a year, just understand what you don't want to do and how you don't want to do things. You will learn things." But also make sure whatever your brand is, that there's a reason for it and you're not just doing it because you want a makeup line or you want a granola company. Look at what's out there and how is yours different? How are you going to differentiate it?

• 51:38Speaker 02

  And, you know, you have to always be thinking.

• 51:40Kara Swisher?

  What's the biggest mistake you think you've made?

• 51:44Speaker 02

  Not breathing. It's easy to give advice. You know, I definitely don't breathe, I don't calm down. Probably the biggest mistakes I've made are hires that I've done that are not good. Sometimes I worry that it's me and I try to do it and then it's tough to fire people.

• 52:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  It's not easy.

• 52:02Kara Swisher?

  It's not. It's hard, it's very hard. Often people don't fire fast enough.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Right. And by the way, most of those people that you want to fire, it's good for them to be fired because it's not the right fit.

• 52:13Kara Swisher?

  When you say "still Bobby," what does that mean?

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Well, the book is called Still Bobby. First of all, it was a very cathartic experience writing it. And I started understanding how and why and how I maneuvered through a lot of these things. But no matter what I did, and I've had some really cool, interesting, you know, I mean, I was in a motorcade. Who gets to go in a presidential motorcade? A makeup artist. Like, it's just weird. And I love that I was able to tell this story because I, when I left and I went home, I was still Bobby. I didn't come home like, you know, my husband would not have allowed me to come home, you know, being our, aren't I great? And it's my comfort place, honestly, is still being Bobby. Being around people

• 52:58Speaker 02

  that I don't need to get my hair done or wear high shoes. That's kind of my comfort zone right now.

• 53:04Kara Swisher?

  All right, Bobby, thank you so much for your time.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 53:14Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yokum, Michelle Aloy, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're skipper. If not, keep letting mama tell you what to do. You'll be unhappy. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

• 53:57Speaker 07

  Support for today's episode comes from Delta, official airline of the National Women's Soccer League. Traveling is basically magic. It creates opportunities, it fosters understanding, it expands horizons, it connects people and communities to each other and to their own potential. Those are the values that drive Delta. With up to 5,500 daily Delta and Delta Connection flights to more than 300 destinations on six continents, Delta is committed to helping you explore your world. Whatever gives you the travel bug, Delta is here to help you get there. Visit delta.com for more info. Delta, wherever the journey takes you.

• 54:43Speaker 08

  Support for the show comes from USA Facts. Income inequality, entitlements, housing costs. Want to really see what the government is up to, what it costs, and who is benefiting? Check out a debate on the American dream between Scott Galloway and Ben Shapiro. It's not your typical soundbites from boring politicians reading talking points. The debate is framed by an informative set of government facts from USA Facts. And then Ben and Scott get into it. There are sharp differences, some common ground, and data and facts that leave you knowing more. Check out the full debate now on the USA Facts YouTube channel.

• 55:26Speaker 09

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes. Earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.