I Won 11 World Titles Because They Said I Couldn't - Anna Hemmings MBE

My guest this week is kayaking legend Anna Hemmings MBE. Anna is Britain’s most successful female marathon kayaker with a staggering eleven World and European Championship medals, 9 of them gold. By the age of 24 she had been a World Champion 3 times and competed at the Olympic Games. In 2010 she was awarded an MBE for her services to sport. Hemmings achieved this success against all the odds. She was told by the British head coach that she was not big enough or strong enough to be a great kayaker. She proved him wrong. At the peak of her career, Anna was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and was told by medical experts she might never race again. She battled her way to full recovery and went on to win a further 3 world titles and compete at her second Olympic Games in Beijing 2008. She has become an expert in the field of resilience and high performance. Anna is now an Executive coach and founded Beyond the Barriers, a high performance training consultancy which works globally with leaders and teams giving them practical tools and strategies to enable them to thrive under pressure, build resilience, be mentally tough in challenging environments and deliver world class performance. Anna’s sporting achievements were recognised at the Sunday Times Sports Woman of the Year Awards, where she won the 2005 Champions Award and then again in 2007 when she was voted BBC London Sports Personality of the Year. This week's podcast gave me more realisations than I’ve ever had from a guest before. We spoke about the multiple challenges she faced throughout her career and how despite all of the hardships, she was able to keep going when all the signs were there to give-up. We also delved into her expertise in resilience and high performance, discussing the steps she takes to help people become the greatest version of themselves. Follow Anna: Website - https://www.annahemmings.com/ LinkedIn - https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anna-hemmings-mbe Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  All of that stuff prevents us from being at our best. We can only be truly great at what we do if we believe without doubt that.

• 0:16Steven Bartlett?

  My guest today is an 11 time European world champion in her field, Anna Hemmings. She has a remarkable story. Not only is she this incredible elite athlete, not only did she get to the Olympics twice, but she's undergone some of the most incredible, mind bending adversity to get there. She's now a coach, she's now an entrepreneur, she's now an incredible businesswoman. And she has a remarkable story to tell you. She's also a mother and a wife and all of these things. And she's, she's really incredibly self analytical and self aware. And as her journey unfolded and as she rose to the top of her career, she got news which all athletes must consider to be the worst news in the world. I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation. You're going

• 0:57Steven Bartlett?

  to get a tremendous amount of value. And I'll be honest, as a host, you ask the questions, but in this conversation, I had more realizations than pretty much any conversation I've had with a guest before. Without further ado, you can see I'm excited. My name is Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:25Steven Bartlett?

  Kayaking, it's, it's not the type of sport that a child would typically dream of getting into. So I guess my first question to you is, you became a world champion in kayaking. You reached the very sort of peak of your, your, your career in that sport. How did you get into kayaking?

• 1:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're absolutely right. It wasn't something I was going, Mom, Mom, please take me kayaking. I did lots of different sports as a child and I loved sport. My mom was always trying to get my brother and I, partly because we enjoyed sport, but sometimes just, you know, summer holidays, go and do a week of tennis camp, do a week of basketball, a week of this. And it was just something that we tried. I loved being on the river, you know, the Thames in the summer is gorgeous, right? You know, it's pretty miserable right now, but in the summer it's lovely. But also the club was competitive. It was, it was Elm Bridge Canoe Club and it was probably one of the best clubs in the country at the time. So this is late 80s and.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  And they were all about racing. They were all about competing. They were all about, you know, working your way up to the national championships, getting on the Great Britain team, going to the world championships, making the Olympics. That was their mission. It was to produce racing athletes. And that played into my competitive nature really well. So I think it was, one, I love the, you know, the nature of the sport, but also I'd stumbled on a place where I could be competitive, I could race, I could, I had access to these brilliant coaches. I mean, as time went on, I was there with, at my club, there were people who were going off to the Olympic Games, who were going off to Seoul Olympic Games.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Four years later, they're going off to Barcelona. And so I was surrounded by people who were going to world championships, achieving great things and making me realise that actually, this is, this is possible.

• 3:23Steven Bartlett?

  So I've got two questions there. The first is, what age were you at this point?

• 3:27Speaker 00

  So, well, when I first stepped into the kayak, that first summer, I was just under nine years old. And, and I can't say that at that age, I was going, my first day in the kayak, I'm going to go to Olympics. It wasn't that. And it probably wasn't until the following summer that I actually really started to train and go regularly and really get into it.

• 3:49Steven Bartlett?

  So you, you said there as well about you were surrounded by people that had these big ambitions that I'm guessing you probably never even considered. And I think, I think that's such a valuable, but also interesting lesson about like the company people keep generally, because I can imagine that if you were in a different kayak school, surrounded by different people that didn't have that level of aspiration, you maybe, and this is a presumption, you maybe wouldn't have believed that it was possible for you. Is that right?

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Um, so I. Yes, I agree. I also had discovered the Olympics probably around that time and was inspired by the Olympics. And I do recall from that young age thinking just the Olympics is just this amazing event. So I think really early on, I had a dream about the Olympics, and I didn't know what sport that would be. I

• 4:47Steven Bartlett?

  Can you say you had a dream? Did you see yourself actually getting there in a sport some day?

• 4:52Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah, I did. I did watch the Olympics on television. I recall Los Angeles. I definitely recall watching Seoul and really being into that. So, you know, by Seoul, I'm like 12 years old, I guess. Watching, thinking, I want to be an Olympian. I want to be in that event one day. And then kayaking came along. And you're right, because of those people, it didn't feel like, because I guess probably when you're watching it on TV, it's like, oh, this is this thing that other people do. And it's far away. And how do you ever, yes, we'd all love to be in the Olympics, maybe not everyone, but, you know, but how

• 5:34Speaker 00

  realistic is that? And then I stumble upon this sport and this club. And these young athletes are turning up, training, they're just like normal people to me. Well, if they can do it, and these normal people who just work really hard can get there, then why can't I?

• 5:53Steven Bartlett?

  I'm so fascinated by it. And you probably saw me being very inquisitive, because in my head, I'm trying to understand how, what the factors were that came together that took you to the Olympics. And like, I think in all of our journeys, we can, we can attribute some level of like coincidence and luck to various stages. And I think one of the moments of like, luck, from what you've said, is like, being around the right people to some degree. Because

• 6:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I've just, I think especially lately in my life, I've really been able to look back and say, do you know what, if I, if I hung around with a different group of people, if I didn't have, you know, mum that was like this, or I didn't have those five friends, I probably wouldn't have believed that, like that, as you, I find it really interesting, you say the word, normal people, because I think we all view ourselves, especially when we're younger, as like, normal people. And we think that normal, and you look at the TV and as you say, like, you don't think normal people can do that stuff on there. And at some point, someone like bridged the gap and was like, oh, by the way, normal people do that. And I think that's a moment that I had in my life, which I found really interesting, from what you've described there. This, this like, the, the thing where the, like, the third wall shattered and you realise that all of your icons and like, you know, the people you love are also just like, were just like you.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:06Steven Bartlett?

  I think that's super inspiring. So we've talked a little bit about circumstance and like, the, the luck, fortune part of it, and being in the right place at the right time. But also, within everybody's journey, there is a lot of intention, there's a lot of like, often discipline, I imagine. What, what are the things about you that, maybe the few defining things, that maybe other people don't, don't have? I always have to be careful with this question because no one wants to blow their own trumpet. But I'm like, why you? Like, why you and not someone else? We've talked about circumstance. But what are the things that you, within your character, got you there versus everyone else who might have quit or not tried as hard, or wasn't as competitive or whatever?

• 7:46Speaker 00

  That's difficult. I definitely worked hard and lots of people work hard, right? And I worked really, really hard. And I think, I think one thing that made me even more determined was that, so as I mentioned already, when people see, think of a kayaker, they often think of someone quite tall. Yeah, they often think of a rower, right? And, and they're different sports, but most people think rower and they think super tall, big. And, and I am a little bit small, not typically the typical size for a kayaker. So generally a little bit taller, broader shoulders.

• 8:20Steven Bartlett?

  How high are you?

• 8:21Speaker 00

  I'm five six.

• 8:22Steven Bartlett?

  Five six, we understand.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  And I was, I was told regularly, too small. My, my coach, actually, the club coach, he was also the great friend team coach, came up to me at a certain point when I was really into the sport and said, I just don't think you're ever going to be big enough or strong enough to ever be a great kayaker, knowing that I was really wanting to be a great kayaker. And but also knowing that I did some other sports and was kind of going, maybe you should go and do those because I know you're, I just don't want you to put all your heart into this and not succeed.

• 8:57Steven Bartlett?

  How did that feel?

• 8:59Speaker 00

  Devastating, right? This is the sport that I'm falling in, fallen in love with, that I'm, this is probably, I'm about 12 years old. So at this stage, I am training quite regularly. I've already been to the national championships. I've got my sights set on being in the Great Britain junior team. Devastating. But I think because of that, I, I just went, well,

• 9:23Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm just going to keep going, going to keep trying. I don't care what you've said. I don't care. You know, this is what I want to do. I'm going to give it a go and I love it. And I think I'm doing okay at it right now and I'm just going to keep trying. What that did for me was made me, made me work harder to prove that actually, because I was told specifically, you're not big enough, you're not strong enough. And yeah, I can't change my height, but I can become stronger. And when I was at the peak of my career, I was the strongest girl in the gym in the Great Britain team.

• 10:00Steven Bartlett?

  I've got to admit, I saw the photos.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  I was bench pressing a hundred kilos.

• 10:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you were strong.

• 10:05Speaker 00

  And so, and I, I was determined that no one's going to tell me I'm not strong enough because I, I can't change how tall I am, but I can change how strong I am.

• 10:16Steven Bartlett?

  Why did it matter though? Why did it matter to be successful to you at this?

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Good question.

• 10:22Steven Bartlett?

  Because a lot of, I, I think about that moment where someone tells you, you're going to fail, whatever. We've all had that moment. I think every successful person's had that moment and people typically go one of two ways. They'll either go, forget this then, you know, chuck it in or whatever. Or they'll have the adverse effect. I almost don't know anybody that sits in the middle. You either get really, you get some kind of insecurity, which takes you either one way, which either means that I'm going to triple down and become obsessive or I'm going to avoid, avoid this at all costs. And I tend, I tend to think that people who this really, really, really intrinsically matters to, for whatever reason, are the ones that go the positive way and use it as motivation.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely. I'm, I loved winning. Why? I loved the. I loved the joy of, I loved, I loved winning, but I also loved improvement and I loved getting better. Quite often I was told, so in kayaking, there's singles, doubles, fours, K1, K2, K4. And I was always told, you know, not big enough is not strong enough, but also definitely not big enough or strong enough to be in a K4. Definitely not big enough to be in any of the crew boats. K2, K4, you need to be big and strong for those boats.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  And I probably shouldn't say this, but they, they used to, it felt to me, define big and strong as fat. And if you were, so I was skin and bones. I was really skinny and so I didn't look strong. But they thought someone who looked chunky, had a big backside was strong.

• 11:57Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  And I'm like, no, that, that just because they're big, doesn't mean they're going to be faster than, they're going to be more valuable in that boat than me.

• 12:05Steven Bartlett?

  So do you think you're underestimated unfairly?

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do. And, and that, so winning world championships in a K2, getting to Olympic Games in a doubles was very satisfying for me. Whenever I was able to prove that actually you don't have to be what you're describing as this kind of shape. That's not what makes someone fast and useful in a kayak, in a double kayak or in a four. So that used to annoy me.

• 12:34Steven Bartlett?

  I saw you talk about, one of the things mentioned when I was doing a little bit of research on you is this idea of like healthy conflict in teams. Could you explain, because I've never heard of the term. I could imagine, I could guess what it means, but I'd love you to explain what healthy conflict is in terms of teams and.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  So in a team, it starts with trust. If we don't have trust in a team, then we can't have healthy conflict. And healthy conflict is when we, healthy debate. So this is about being able to.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Know that all of the people in the team have the same objective, the same, we've all got the same goal. We're trying to achieve the same thing and you put forward an idea and I disagree with that idea. But if we don't have trust in the team and you're the boss, then I'm not going to put my hand up and say, I disagree. I don't think we should do it like that. I think we should do it like this. I think that this is the way we should go. I think we need to go down this route. We won't have that argument, an argument, debate, conflict, whatever you want to call it. If there's not enough trust in the team, if you think that you're going to be shot down, if you think you're not going to be listened to. And then the problem with that is that we then walk out of the room.

• 13:51Speaker 00

  And you've probably been in meetings, right? Where people all sit in the room and they all nod and go, yeah, brilliant. Yeah, we're all going to do that. And then they walk out of the room and they go, you've got another thing coming. You think I'm going to do that? And they do that because they haven't had their say. They haven't been able to disagree and back and forth with their ideas and have that debate. Even if your idea isn't gone with, they at least want to feel like I've had my say. And I've had my opportunity to put forward my thoughts and my opinion and my suggestion. But actually, at the end of the day, this is the best idea for the team. Then, fine, let's go with that. But at least I've had my opportunity to speak up.

• 14:33Steven Bartlett?

  And you talk about, you know, that sounds very sort of analogous to like relationships as well. Cause I think, you know, like romantic relationships, right? People get a little bit peeved if they don't feel like they're being heard and had a chance to express themselves. And also when they have that, when they do express themselves, quite often it's perceived as in the name of being right or winning versus in the name of like progress or solving the problem. It's like me and you versus each other versus me and you versus the problem, right?

• 14:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:00Steven Bartlett?

  How do you build the trust foundation? Like what's the, how do you get a team to trust each other? And what are the? Because if that's the foundation of healthy conflict, I'm like, how do I, what can I do to?

• 15:11Speaker 00

  So one of the things that that you can do, and this is what, you know, I work with teams and leaders, and it's about vulnerability. It's about being able to be vulnerable with your people, with your team, being able to admit weaknesses, admit mistakes. It's about being able to say, I don't know the answer. I don't know where we're going. I don't know where I don't, you know, I don't know how to deal with this. Or, you know, just being able to be vulnerable. And, and that isn't always easy to do. But when you start to do it, it gives permission to people, you know, if you, we do workshops where we're trying to build trust.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  And people always say, you know, at the end, we might ask them something like, share something about a challenge from your childhood.

• 16:03Speaker 00

  And when we, when people go around and they share and we say, what, what made it difficult or hard to do? And they say, well, it made it easier when someone else went first.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Because once you've opened up and you've bared yourself a little bit, then I feel, oh, well, he's done it. Then it's okay. And no one judged him and, and no one knocked him. And, and it's like, okay, well, I can do it too. And knowing that no one's, and when there is that trust, then we know that actually I'm not going to be, that's not going to be held against me. Whatever it is that I share, it's not going to be held against me in the future. It's not going to be used and I'm not going to be shot down for it.

• 16:43Steven Bartlett?

  You, a lot of this is like about the psychology of how people think and operate. And I know that you spent some time working with a psychologist or a sports psychologist when you were rising in your career. I find that super fascinating, but I'd love to know what some of the key sort of lessons you learned about high performance or about, I guess, like self-regulation from that, that psychologist as it relates to becoming a world champion and, you know.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I did, I worked with a sports psychologist for, from the age of 16.

• 17:12Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really? Wow.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. So really young. And, and I think that.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  That was part of, and you talk about, you know, you asked me earlier, what is it that made me a little bit different or why did I succeed when others didn't? And I think part of that was, have you heard of growth mindset?

• 17:30Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  So I think that my, I didn't know about that then, and neither did, you know, a lot of people, but my mom was pretty quite growth mindset and, and I, and instilled that quite a lot in me. For example, she, you know, this idea of just constant learning, constantly wanting to learn and be better and recognizing that we can be better all the time, we can improve, and looking outside for other areas of expertise, learning from other sectors and all of that. And she was the one that, you know, it wasn't like I was struggling with my mental strength and confidence or anything. It was just, what else do we need to do? What, who else can help us? Who else can, what else, you know, we don't have all the answers. We want to learn, we've got to learn from everyone. And I always encourage

• 18:15Speaker 00

  clients in the business world, you know, who, who can we constantly be learning from all the time? What was the, some of the key things?

• 18:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And also, what are they, what are they trying to do? I, I guess they're trying to make you the best athlete you can be. But what are the things stopping you from being the best athlete you can be?

• 18:31Speaker 00

  Ourselves.

• 18:32Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Most of the time, we are the ones that get in our own way.

• 18:36Steven Bartlett?

  How?

• 18:36Speaker 00

  How do we get in our own way? The doubts, the, the, the thoughts that we think, the doubt that that seeds, the nerves overcoming us, so, so, becoming so nervous that you become paralyzed almost, choking, under pressure, focusing on the wrong things, not being confident in yourself. Yeah, so many things that we do. Fear.

• 19:04Steven Bartlett?

  Doubt is a really interesting one.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  Fear, doubt, anxiety, nerves, lack of confidence. All of that stuff prevents us from being at our best. And that essentially is what, was one of, one of the big parts of what a sports psychologist is helping you to do. When an athlete, when you line up and there's nine of you on the start line at the Olympic Games, all of them, all of those athletes have trained hard. They're all in amazing shape. They're all super fit. They're all, you know, strong. They're, you know, physically, there's not a huge amount of difference between those nine, you know, think about 100 meter sprint at the Olympic Games. There's not a lot of difference between them.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  What is it that makes one of them win on the day? And not often, it's often not the strongest, fastest, fittest who wins on the day. It's the one who's the strongest up here. And I really believe that, that this is often what stops people from fulfilling their potential. And that's why I love helping people with Noun. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Their mental game is what stops people from being the best they can be.

• 20:09Steven Bartlett?

  Of all the things that we do in our minds, you talked about fear, doubt, anxiety, all these kinds of things. Fear and doubt, like lack of self-belief, not believing that you can or those things. That's probably one of the most common sort of mental games that holds us back or limits us from our full potential. How does, how does one go about overcoming their own limiting beliefs about themselves? Like they think, okay, well, no, I can't do that. Everybody thinks they can't do everything, it seems these days. Like, I don't know why, maybe it's just because of what I do for a living. But I'm just surrounded by an audience of people that have real limiting beliefs. And I wonder why, but I also wonder how you help them overcome their own limiting beliefs. Big question.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  It's a huge question. How do we overcome our limiting beliefs? It's actually something that I work on a lot with when I'm coaching clients.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  Identifying beliefs that, so you know, we would start probably with what are some of those limiting beliefs? And start to unpick, how are those beliefs, where, how are they serving? I wouldn't be interested in necessarily where they've come from. I would be interested in how are they serving us right now? And how are they not serving us? Because sometimes there's, we're believing them because they're serving us for a purpose. They're helping us in some way, but oft, more often than not, those beliefs won't be serving us. So starting to unpick that, you know, almost like what are the pros and cons of having this belief here? Right now that I can't achieve this or that. One of my limiting beliefs was that I'm not very good at sales. You know, I was, I had to, I have to, you know, I run a training consultancy.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  I have to, you know, find clients and how, you know, so what's a more helpful belief? And starting to unpick what would be a better way of seeing this? What are my strengths?

• 21:57Speaker 00

  And what would be a new belief that would be, serve me better?

• 22:00Steven Bartlett?

  I think in some point in your journey, you, probably not at one particular moment, but gradually, I imagine you started to build evidence within yourself that you could be a great kayaker. And I imagine that was over a long period of time, probably. There wasn't one day where you woke up and thought, I'm good.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And I think that is a big part of where we get our confidence from is like our past experiences. Yeah. So whenever we do something, we, we start to build a bank of memories. And when we're at the next situation that is similar, we can choose to draw on the bank of negative experiences where we cocked it up, or we can choose to draw on the bank of positive experiences where we succeeded and we did it really well. And the trick is, and you know, if we, if we, and if we're not conscious about it, chances are we might pick the experience of when we failed. And then that's when we start to regurgitate all those thoughts and feelings of embarrassment and anxiety and nerves and, and that doesn't help us.

• 23:01Steven Bartlett?

  And that's like, that probably would then hinder performance.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Absolutely. It perpetuates the, you know, the doubt and the, because you're reminding yourself of, oh, remember last time when you did it, you cocked it up and you messed up and you did this.

• 23:13Steven Bartlett?

  Then cock it up because you're thinking.

• 23:15Speaker 00

  And then you cock it up because you're, and we think in images.

• 23:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  And so when you think of something that you messed up, you're seeing yourself doing it, right? You're imagining it in your mind right here and now. And so the trick is to consciously recall the positive experience, the past successes. And if there's nothing in the bank, exactly of that experience, there's chances are there's something similar. There's always something similar. And, you know, so I would work with clients to identify what are all of the successes that you've had, not just in that specific scenario, but let's, let's look at lots of different successes. And then let's pick out what are the, what are the attributes that

• 23:58Speaker 00

  allowed you to achieve those things? Because quite often someone will go, oh, well, I achieved that, but it was because the weather was good on that day, or I achieved that because my team, my team did it really, it wasn't me. So it's about starting to unpick. Actually, what role did you play in that success? And what are the attributes that allowed you, your strengths, your attributes that allowed you to achieve that? And then we start to build up the bank of successes and the strengths and the attributes, which we can transfer into any scenario.

• 24:32Steven Bartlett?

  How much do you think people, and this is, I don't know why I'm asking this question, because it's not quantifiable, but like, to what extent do you think people underestimate their potential generally?

• 24:43Speaker 00

  Oh massively.

• 24:45Steven Bartlett?

  Like, would you say like over 95%? Because I think I'd say over, I'd think I'd say people realise, well, like typically, the average person realises about 5% of their potential. And I only say this because, again, like you said, I'm a very normal kid, my parents bankrupt, like, I dropped out, I got kicked out of school, poor grades, everything. But this one thing I had, and I always say, like, the one thing I had was I genuinely believed that I was going to be where I am today, just for no, without a tonne of evidence, just genuinely believed. And in fact, one of the reasons why I believed it was not because I had any bank of successes yet, but I had a little bit, but it was actually contrasting me to my peers when I was 14 and thinking, I think that I have skills they don't.

• 25:29Steven Bartlett?

  And I think that if these are the people that become adults, then I will have, I will always have that advantage. So that was my way of like, and so when I cocked up my grades and GCSE and when school starts with that narrative that, okay, well, you got an E, so you're going to have an E life, you're going to be broke and unhappy, like, no, you're wrong. Like, so I get my.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  You were gathering evidence, you were looking at your strengths, which is part of the puzzle, right?

• 25:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  You may not have had the experiences and the evidence of the achievements and the certificates and all of that, but you, what's more valuable is what you had, is the non tangible stuff.

• 26:06Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 26:07Speaker 00

  Because if we go through life only assessing our success on the tangible stuff.

• 26:14Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 00

  Then our confidence, our self belief, actually, and they're two different things, will be quite fragile.

• 26:20Steven Bartlett?

  Oh yeah, I can see that.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  Because you're always assessing yourself against.

• 26:24Steven Bartlett?

  A trophy.

• 26:25Speaker 00

  A trophy or society. Because you're compared to, oh, I got this award against all of these other people and I won this trophy and I went past this grade and it's always against somebody else and a society, rather than looking at the intangible. Attributes that allowed you to achieve those successes because that's what isn't measurable against society and is transferable to other domains.

• 26:54Steven Bartlett?

  And this is the, and you're completely right. And I've never actually thought about it that way before. Cause I've always tried to figure out why at 14, I was convinced that I would be successful. And at 18, I wrote my diary, I'm gonna have a Range Rover sport before them. I'm 25, I'm gonna be a millionaire from 25. Achieved all of those things. Just knew I would, but it was, as you said, it was purely based on, and it's almost a strength audit or skills audit versus other people that I knew. And I thought, oh, those skills are really good skills and they'll take you far. But school is about tangibles, like, and I would say a grade is a tangible.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:25Steven Bartlett?

  So school says, okay, you got an E. So unfortunately, like it creates the impression from all angles, you're gonna be poor. Like, and you're not gonna be that successful. But Timmy over there, who's got an A, he's really gonna kill it as a surgeon. You know, and I think so how you make it alive out of that system and still with your, you know, self-esteem and self-belief intact is remarkable.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  But I, and I think that what you had is, is better than the certificate.

• 27:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  But, but what it does is it allows you to go, this is intrinsic in me.

• 27:59Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. No one can take it.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  No one can take that away. And my self-worth isn't based on a certificate.

• 28:05Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  And a trophy and an award.

• 28:08Steven Bartlett?

  How do you give people that?

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Well, so you work on identifying those strengths.

• 28:13Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 28:13Speaker 00

  What are those strengths? We do this all the time. We work with clients on what are those strengths? And where's the evidence of those strengths? And when they start to see the evidence of those strengths, well, you know, so I'm, I'm working with a client and, you know, so one of your strengths is being an authentic leader. One of your strengths is building relationships. Where's the evidence of that? Look at all these people.

• 28:35Steven Bartlett?

  What do you do about weaknesses though? So would you highlight their weaknesses?

• 28:39Speaker 00

  I think it's important to highlight both. I think it's more important to work on exploiting your strengths. And I would, so we do a lot of diagnostics. We use behavioral profiling and all of that kind of stuff. And all of that will, will bring up both. And I think it's important to really be aware of your areas of development. But ultimately, if I'm sat on the start line of the world championships and I'm focused on my weaknesses and all the things I need to avoid, my confidence is fragile.

• 29:11Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 29:11Speaker 00

  Chances of performing it on rest slim. And so in that moment, I absolutely need to have on the tips of my fingers what my strengths are and I need to know them and I need to be able to exploit them. And I think the more you work on those, the better.

• 29:27Steven Bartlett?

  What do you think about this idea of like labeling yourself in your line of work and the broader labels we give ourselves, even if it's just like bad salesman, you talked about that being one of your like previous limiting beliefs or labels.

• 29:39Speaker 00

  I think they're not helpful. And I think it's really important that we're aware of those labels that we're giving ourselves. And the awareness is the first step, right? We can't change it if we don't notice it. So we need to notice the label in the first place. And then it's a bit, you know, it's a limiting belief, really, isn't it? And so is that label serving me? Is it helping me achieve my end goal?

• 30:00Steven Bartlett?

  It feels like it sometimes because it's making me fit in and it's giving me comfort. So I see this a lot with people that will say, I am a, in my case, I'm just gonna use my case, I'm a social media CEO. And so I've been a social media CEO for 10 years. It gives me some kind of like community to be part of. It gives me a sense of identity. But at the same time, it stops me from being all that I can be. And this is one thing I was going over in my book is like, now I've left my company, it's so tempting to just start another social media business. But like, there's so much more I can do. And so what I'm asking you this question because I'm in the midst of really thinking about it is like, how do I just resist my labels and be a fucking DJ? I'm doing this big theatrical show and working

• 30:44Steven Bartlett?

  in biotech. And I don't know, I just, this idea of like liberating yourself from your own labels has been super relevant to me.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  I think that it becomes your identity is a bigger part of the problem. You know, it's like when an athlete retires from sport.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  It took me and it still takes me, I catch myself saying, you know, I'm an athlete. I'm not a business person. And I go, oh, I, you know, I don't have a background in business. Yeah, I've been running a business for 11 years and I was a professional athlete for 15 years. So it's almost this, you know, I have almost the same amount of experience in business as I do in, in sport. Yeah, I label myself for so long and I, that became my identity. And your identity is CEO of a social media company. And so that's who I am and it's hard to let go of that because it's part of who I am.

• 31:38Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 00

  And it's comfortable, right? And, and you know, you know who that person is, what the behavior of that person's like. And, and you're stepping into a new role that, what does this new person look like?

• 31:51Steven Bartlett?

  But how rewarding has that been for you to kind of, I guess, reinvent yourself from being an athlete to now being an entrepreneur and a business person? Was it worth it? That's what I'm saying is was it worth it to step out of that label?

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. And, and we should all have multiple careers.

• 32:06Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  And I think as time, you know, as we're living longer and longer, we all will have multiple careers. And I think we need to find the courage to step into new careers all the time and reinvent and, and just recognize that there, there's so many skills that we can transfer from that other career, label, identity and bring into the next one. And that's what will allow us to succeed into the next one. And recognizing that we're never going to grow unless we step out of that comfort zone. And yeah, get a little bit scared of who this new person could be or would be or should be. And we'll find out. And that's the exciting thing is we're going to find out.

• 32:47Steven Bartlett?

  How do you, for some, for some people, that's terrifying.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:50Steven Bartlett?

  The thought of like throwing themselves into that place of uncertainty that they have to travel through before they get to their new self. How do you get someone to come willingly into uncertainty, to leave that job or to, you know, take on that promotion or to? Pivot in their career when they're scared of the unknown or, you know, it's like.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  Well, then I would think about what I would think about rather than what I'm afraid of, I'm think about what I'm excited about. And so rather than I'm afraid of what I'm going to leave behind, or I'm afraid of what might happen, I'm more about what could happen. And when we focus on what we want and what we could have, and you know, it's optimism, isn't it? It's about what's possible and what could I achieve, you know? And you asked me earlier about, you know, some of the things about sports psychology and visualization was one of, was a massive technique.

• 33:39Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 33:40Speaker 00

  That I learned from my sports psychologist and employed and still use all the time. And I think when you can start to visualize what that new role, person, identity could be. And when you bring it to life with all of your senses and see it really vividly, then that's exciting. And what, what, what could I achieve and what could this look like? And, and the power of visualization is that your mind does, when it's, when you see it really vividly, your mind doesn't know the difference between a vividly imagined experience and a real life experience.

• 34:16Steven Bartlett?

  What's your process for visualization? And now is it something that you do actively, you set time aside and do it? Or is it just something that you naturally now do when you're pursuing a goal?

• 34:28Speaker 00

  So a little bit of both. As an athlete, it was definitely something that I would sit down, usually I'd be lying on my bed. I would have done some relaxation because the more we clear our mind and relax, the easier it is to visualize and to see really clearly. And so I would, it would be a conscious, right? I'm going to spend the next 15 minutes or even two minutes or five minutes or whatever time I had, visualizing my next race. And seeing myself execute that race plan as perfectly as I can and in exactly the right way. And I would visualize everything from, um, if it was the, the Olympic discipline and we've got nine boats on a start line. I'm seeing my, I don't know which lane I'm going to be in when it comes to race day. So I'm seeing myself race in every lane. I'm seeing myself with, with the headwind, with the tailwind, with it raining.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  I'm seeing myself cock up the start because that might happen, but then I just going to recover from it. And I'm going to see myself recover and I'm going to see myself win from behind. I'm going to see myself win from the front. I'm going to see, imagine, you know, the start being delayed or it's a false start, you know, all these eventualities. So that when it comes to the event. I'm prepared and it can just all unfold and I'm not phased by anything that happens. But but most importantly, I've seen it happen the way I want it to happen. And then I believe that it can happen. And what visualization also does is when we when we're visualizing a goal, for example,

• 35:51Speaker 00

  it starts to activate the subconscious to generate creative ideas about how we can achieve our goal. It's it's it's my, I don't know how it works and why it works, but it's mind blowing and it does work. And it and it starts to get your brain to perceive and recognize the different

• 36:13Speaker 00

  resources that you need to achieve your goal. It's like the law of attraction and it starts to activate that in your life and bring in the people, the resources, the environment, the circumstances that you need to achieve your goal. And so now, what do I do? I probably, I do spend some time consciously going, right, I'm just going to spend two or three minutes visualizing my goal, I'm seeing it happen, I'm seeing it realize. But then other times, I'm probably just, you know, driving in my car and subconsciously, you know, like daydreaming almost. But I think the the conscious, right, I'm going to visualize now is really powerful. Because then you start to

• 36:58Speaker 00

  really, it starts to ingrain in the subconscious.

• 37:03Steven Bartlett?

  So the law of attraction stuff, I think sometimes it can take people one of two ways. Because I do believe in visualization. My visualizations over the years have been like the daydreaming stuff. But then also, when I was like, really, really, really broke and living in Moss Side in like a boarded up house, I would frequently look at stuff that in the future I wanted. So I'd look at these like mansion houses and whatever. And that was me kind of just setting my, I don't know, trying to peer into my future life. The bit that I think sometimes gets lost when we talk about like the law of attraction, it's almost akin to like.

• 37:36Steven Bartlett?

  When you set off in the morning, you put your sat nav in and you say, this is where I want to go. I want to go Tesco. But then if you don't like, put the key in and put your foot down, you're just going to be sat in your garage. And but there's something about knowing where you want to go. And as you said, like almost programming your brain to trick your brain to think to completely be convinced that you will get there, that I then that from my experience, then makes you take actions in that direction. So like, I'm sure you then you visualize yourself as a world champion, but then you're like, you go in the gym, and you train like a world champion, because that's where you that's your destination. And the opposite is also true. Like, if you visualize yourself not being a champion, what's the point, you know,

• 38:15Steven Bartlett?

  you know. So my real question here is about all of the actions and the discipline it takes, especially as an athlete, to get you from where you are to that visualized destination. I'm really keen to hear about like, the discipline, the consistency, because you're in a physical, very, very physical endurance race. And, you know, it's like, I think Muhammad Ali said, like, it's one in the gym, it's one in training, a lot of it. And we all struggle with that. We all struggle with like, showing up on Monday when it's raining. So like, what's the, what's the key there?

• 38:51Speaker 00

  So I think I think you're absolutely right. You know, when we visualize, it gives us the motivation to believe that it can happen.

• 38:59Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  And that's, that's at the core of it. Because if we don't believe it can happen, then what's the point? And so, yes, we absolutely have to take action, but we need the motivation to take action. I can't say that, you know, 100% of the days that I was training, I was, ah, yeah, I can't wait to get out there, go training. It's probably freezing outside. It's like the middle of winter.

• 39:19Steven Bartlett?

  On the water.

• 39:20Speaker 00

  On the water, in the river Thames, and it's like ice. Yeah, that wasn't appealing every day. Luckily, the funding came in and we got to go travel and train in warmer climates in Florida and wherever else. But, yes, there's this, you know, goal that's the world championships, it's the Olympic Games, it's, you know, those big dream goals that are highly motivating. But on those day, every single day.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  I'd be lying if you, you know, if you could say that goal in four years' time is what got me out of bed on that rainy, freezing cold, you know, January morning.

• 40:00Steven Bartlett?

  But isn't that the answer then? Like, it was just take, like, do today?

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, so it's, but, but also, um, I do a lot of work around intrinsic motivation and understanding what drives us. And, and we're all, we all have different drivers. And unsurprisingly, one of my drivers is a sense of achievement. And so my driver wasn't necessarily on that particular day, oh, I've got to train really hard because I want to win the world championships in two years' time. My driver was probably more that my coach has set targets every month that throughout the winter, you know, for five months of the winter, we would have targets every month in the gym. There'd be certain exercises in the gym that we've got to hit. Um, we would do tests on, we would do time

• 40:47Speaker 00

  trials on running and swimming and on the water. Um, so as part of our cardiovascular training. So, and for me, that was really, um, I loved hitting those targets, basically, that monthly, right? So if I do, and I know that if I do this training today, then I'm going to get better. And I've got a test on the weekend and I want to hit that target. I want to, I want to smash the target actually, because yeah, then there's a good chance I'm going to win the world championships, not just hitting the targets, I need to smash the targets. And so that sense of achievement for me was a big driver. For other people in my team, it might have been, and on, actually on other days, it might have been, actually, I want to get out and go train because I want to see my teammates, because we have a laugh and there's banter and it's fun and, and I enjoy the connection and the sense

• 41:30Speaker 00

  of that being part of a team and the community and, and all of that. And so it's the affiliation that's driving me on some days. And, but for others, you know, I can think of some of the girls in my team, actually, a sense of recognition was a big driver. So needing that, you know, ah, today, you know, you worked really hard, you've, you know, really put everything into that session, you know, like hearing that from the coach or, you know, look how far you've come, or look what you've, you know, the progress you've made or, so everyone, and so when a coach can tap into that, knowing what is it that's going to get you out of bed today? That's when we start to get the best out of people or the best out of ourselves.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  And so, you know, when I work with with leaders, it's about what motivates and drives me intrinsically, not just the carrot and the pay slip and the promotion and, you know, and all of that. That's the external stuff, which isn't very sustainable.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  We need to know what drives us in as individuals, but also what drives our team. And tap into both of those and start to ask, what, what is it that, am I getting that every day? And if I'm not, how can I get that from work? What is it that I need to get? And also really interesting, you know, if you're a leader of a business and you're working with a team, are my drivers influencing how I operate with others in my team? You know, so if my driver is a sense of achievement, but your driver is to make a meaningful contribution. And I'm pushing you, go, no, we need to, we need to, we need to win this and we need to get the next pitch. And, and you're like, no, I just want to really help these people. I'm pushing my driver onto you and that's not working for you.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  So it's really important to be aware of what my driver is and know that it's not the same as yours. Chances are.

• 43:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, that's a good, that's a really good point. And I think I've probably, as the one that probably values a sense of achievement and forward motion and progress above all else at times. When I'm trying to motivate people, especially like friends, I'm trying to sell them on the value of achievement when they're probably just not asked about that particular thing.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  I don't need to win.

• 43:32Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  I just wanna.

• 43:34Steven Bartlett?

  Doesn't matter to me.

• 43:35Speaker 00

  I, I wanna feel ownership of this piece of work.

• 43:37Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  Actually, that's what's really important to me.

• 43:39Steven Bartlett?

  And how do you find out what someone's driver, driver, drivers or motivations or intrinsic motivations are? Is there, is there a system or like a test or?

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I, the work, um, there's some brilliant work from, um, a chap called Dean Spitzer. And he talks about super motivation and this idea that there isn't, you know, we, there's intrinsic and there's extrinsic motivation. So what we use a diagnostic actually, when I work with clients and it will identify, it forces you to, to pick. Because, you know, we've all want, you know, maybe some recognition or some achievement or to feel like we're making a contribution or to be with people, all of these, but it really forces you to identify what really is your big driver.

• 44:15Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  Um, so yeah, so I, I use that, but I mean, I think when you talk to people, you can start to, you know, the more you get to know someone and you ask them questions and you see the way they operate and, and you see them light up when they get certain feedback or when they're doing certain pieces of work. So we can start to get a feel for that, just when we get to know people.

• 44:36Steven Bartlett?

  I, you, when, you know, I, I asked you there about the, that like discipline and consistency and what gets you up every day on like a rainy Tuesday or whatever. And it was interesting that, um, you kind of like shortened your horizon or your skirt, like people, I think people typically think they, they want to get to the top of the mountain. So they think, okay, um, let's make a plan to get to the top of the mountain. But you were so focused on these like short term, shorter goals, which meant that I guess your progress sorts of almost like invisibly compounds, um, to get you to the top of the mountain. So instead of like, we want to get to staircase number a thousand, we're like, let's get 10, let's do 10 stairs today and then 10 stairs tomorrow and 10 stairs and 10 stairs. And by the time you know it, you're at the top of the mountain, right?

• 45:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, literally, I, I, um, four years ago, I climbed, um, Mount Tubcal.

• 45:23Steven Bartlett?

  Of course you did.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  And, as you do, and, um, I, we went, there was probably 10 of us in the group. One of them, one of the girls that was on the group was a friend of mine and she had, I don't know why she joined the group, but she had a fear of heights.

• 45:38Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, God.

• 45:39Speaker 00

  Um, and we're climbing a mountain and it was fine for the first day and a half because it's just like a windy road. The morning of the summit, it's literally, we're going up, we feel like we're going up a steep mountain and you're, and there's boulders and, and she literally. Cannot, she's so scared of heights and she's like, and I can't do it, I can't do it. And eventually I was like, Gina, you just need to focus. What her biggest fear actually was also getting down.

• 46:08Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  Um, looking down and thinking, shit, how, I might get, but how the heck am I going to get back down? Because that looks really scary and it's slippery and there's, there's scree. So the, the ground is loose and I'm like, don't even think about that. Right now, all you need to do is take one step at a time, one meter at a time. That's all I want you to focus on. And one meter and one meter and one, and we'll figure out the rest. And you might not even get to the top. Who knows? You might, you might not, we might stop, but just do one meter at a time. And then we'll figure out the down bit and we'll take it one step at a time on the way down. Because that's all we can do, right? In that moment is take one step at a time.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  And it's the same, whether it's a goal to achieve, you know, X turnover in a business or this many sales or whatever the business is or whatever walk of life. Yes, we need to know the end goal.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  But actually we just need to focus on the process.

• 47:08Steven Bartlett?

  Cause the summit looks scary, but one meter doesn't look scary.

• 47:11Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 47:12Steven Bartlett?

  And if you just do one meter at a time.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  And also, you know, or whether it's the fear or, oh my God, it's so far away. We've got another four hours to go. It might be, you know, whatever it is, well, actually let's just do the next five minutes. And let's see if that is feasible, because it probably is, right? Can I do one, yeah, can you take this next step? Yeah, I can definitely take the next step. Okay, can you take the next one? Can I take the next one? And that feels really feasible.

• 47:39Steven Bartlett?

  You mentioned earlier, getting, at the very beginning of this conversation, getting news. I think when you were about 24, 25, that you had an illness called chronic fatigue syndrome. I'm now going to be incredibly naive and narrow minded. When I, when you read chronic fatigue syndrome, you think tiredness. That's what you think, right? But, um, but I know it's a lot more crippling than that. And I know that it's a lot more devastating, especially for an athlete.

• 48:04Steven Bartlett?

  Talk me through finding out you had this, this, this disorder, but also what it meant for your career and how it changed things.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  So yeah, I like you say, was 25, 26 when I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. And yes, it's more than just fatigue. It's not just, I'm tired today. It's being devoid of energy, exhausted, almost on a permanent basis. It also for me included muscle pain to the point where my muscles were, sorry, muscle ache to the point where it was painful. To the point where I couldn't stand in the shower and hold my hands up here to wash my hair for more than 10 seconds because it was too painful.

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Some people have symptoms, I didn't get this so much, but sort of, you know, like can't concentrate, can't focus, brain fog. Some people are actually bedridden. Some people are actually in a wheelchair. Luckily, I wasn't as bad as that, but I was bad to the point where, yeah, I couldn't, I, I couldn't be in my kayak paddling for more than 10 minutes at a very light, gentle walk type pace. Having gone from winning world championships for two and a half hours at a very high pace to can't get my hands, hold my hands up here. I was literally two months earlier able to rattle off 100 press ups in one go.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  And then can't hold my hands up here for more than 10 seconds. So that's the, that's the physical element. And that's only the physical element, but the mental and emotional battle was just as challenging because

• 49:51Speaker 00

  you can't, you can't see it. So it's not, you know, I was, got frustrated to the point where I actually wished that my skin was covered in spots so that people could see that there was something wrong with me and could understand that I was going through something, that I was in pain, that I was, you know, unwell. But I looked fine. So I got diagnosed with the illness in 2003. Beginning of the season, it was like April and then so following year is coming up to the Olympics, two thousand and four. So I'm training for the Olympics or wanting to be training. So six months later, it was only six months later that they actually diagnosed it because it takes six months for them to eliminate everything else and go, oh, this is fatigue that's been going on for more than six months.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  Therefore, you have chronic fatigue syndrome. And I went off to Florida. And the sports team doctor was saying, right, you need to do this graded return to exercise. They think originally, and they still thought it was overtraining. Oh, really? That's the immediate assumption, right? Athletes tired, muscle ache, must be overtrained. So they diagnose you, they offered me this program of, right, gently build up your return to sport. So you start with 10 minutes at a heart rate of 115, I can't remember. And then 15 minutes at 115 and then 20 minutes and 30 minutes. And when you can get to 40 minutes, then we can go up to 120 heart rate and so on and so on.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  And so I went out, my training group and my coach were all in Florida. So I went out to Florida to train. And I just couldn't get past 20 minutes. And so I went out to, I went to see a doctor in Florida.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  And the doctor, he ran some blood tests and basically like, I still looked like an athlete. I'm still pretty muscly, I'm fit, I'm lean, I'm in Florida, I've got a tan. And he basically looked at me and said, well, we've run all the blood tests, there's nothing coming up, nothing, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with you. You look really fit and well, I think you're fine. And so that, just this frustration of, I can't see it and therefore there must be nothing wrong. You know, it's mental health, right? You know, people who are suffering with depression or anxiety or whatever it is, we can't see it. And so we don't know it and we don't understand it. And so the mental and emotional battle was really challenging.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  And even people in my sport not understanding what's wrong with Anna, oh, she can't cope with it anymore. Or she's too lazy to train or whatever. They're saying all these things and that's hard. How did it make you feel?

• 52:25Speaker 00

  So in the beginning.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  Frustrated, devastated, confused, sad, lonely, so many different things. And frustrated because also we didn't really know what it was. And the doctors are saying it's overtraining. And actually, when I reflect on the previous two years, I'd had episodes of fatigue, which I now know were episodes of that same illness, but that only lasted for two weeks or three weeks or six weeks. And I would stop training or I'd really cut back on training. And then I'd be able to come back and I'd be fine again. And, and so I only know that it was, I knew in my heart when I went to see the team doctor that one day, and I remember it, that it wasn't overtraining.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Because for six months, I had been doing less training than everyone else in my group. I can't be overtrained, I'm doing less than everyone else. Because we were so conscious of this, oh, Anna's overtraining, that I wasn't, I was, it was just, was not overtraining. And the doctors are like, oh, you've overtrained. And I was like, Jesus, and that I just, and then that was it. I didn't train again for 18 months. And I did, I did, I, after working with the sport, the team doctor, I went to other doctors. I tried conventional medicine, I tried alternative therapies and, and nothing was working. And that was the, the hardest part as well, was that, one, you can't really tell me what's wrong with me, and two, you can't tell me how to deal with this.

• 53:56Speaker 00

  And, and then, you know, I went to see one doctor and he said, basically, there's no cure, there's no treatment, and you're, don't, don't, don't think you're ever going to get back in a kayak. You never, well, you might get back in a kayak, but you're never going to race at that highest level, you won't race again.

• 54:14Speaker 00

  So that was, that was a pretty big moment.

• 54:17Steven Bartlett?

  He said that to you?

• 54:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. And

• 54:20Steven Bartlett?

  How was that to hear?

• 54:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, just like, this is, this is my, you know, this is my identity, this is who I am, this is my life, this is, this is my career. I still have ambitions left to fulfill. And I don't, I don't want something like this to end my career. I want to end it on my terms, when I choose that I'm done. And so, yeah, that summer, watching the Olympic Games on the telly in Athens, it was devastating. And, but I guess I always believed that

• 54:57Speaker 00

  I would find a way. I was like, there has to be a solution to this. There has to be a way out. And I guess that I'm a very optimistic person and very much a possibility, possibilitarian, I call it that. I don't know if that's a word, but believing that it's possible, that there is a way out, there has to be a way out. And I guess I didn't know whether there was, but I just had to, I had to believe that there was. And I had to believe that I would get out of this and that I would find a way back and that I would get back to training and racing one day. Otherwise, what hope, what did I have? And

• 55:39Speaker 00

  not that my life would be over if I couldn't paddle, but just that's what, that belief, I think, is what kept me going in that, in that time. And, and eventually, to cut a long story short, I did find a treatment for the illness and I did recover and I did get back. But it wasn't an easy journey.

• 55:58Steven Bartlett?

  Do they, before we get on to what the treatment was and your recovery, do they know what's happening to you, like physiologically, when you have that disorder? Have they, do they know what, what's causing your?

• 56:10Speaker 00

  The problem is, is that there are many different schools of thought.

• 56:15Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 56:15Speaker 00

  And it depends who you talk to, and it depends which doctor, and what clinical study, or what study you read, or?

• 56:24Steven Bartlett?

  Which one do you believe?

• 56:25Speaker 00

  I believe, based on the treatment that I did, which was a treatment called reverse therapy. And it was founded by a chap called Dr. John Eaton. And back, it was, it was only just, it was quite a new therapy when I did it back in 2005, four. And essentially, the symptoms are like alarm bells going off in your body. So these symptoms, the pain, the fatigue, the exhaustion, the can't focus, any of the symptoms that you're experiencing are alarm bells and your body's way of telling you that there are.

• 57:06Speaker 00

  Things going on in your life that your body doesn't like, whether that be pressures, stresses, relationships, environment, emotions, all sorts of things that are triggering these symptoms and these alarm bells. And basically, if you don't listen to the alarm bells, they'll get louder and louder and louder, to the point where eventually they just go, right, done. You're just not going to move now. You're not gonna, until you listen up, how loud do I need to get before you're gonna listen? And for me, it was to the point where I couldn't train. When I can't train, now I'm gonna listen up, because

• 57:45Speaker 00

  now it's really bad. And now I need to pay attention. And so I'm not particularly articulate explaining what's going on physiologically, but that's my interpretation of how the symptoms arrive and how you deal. And then what I did, so the treatment that I did is about identifying what are those triggers? What are those things that your body and mind are saying I don't like?

• 58:13Steven Bartlett?

  What were they?

• 58:14Speaker 00

  And so for me, non-expression of emotion is one of the most common triggers. And that certainly was the case for me, to the point where I didn't open up to anyone, really. I have really close friends, I have family, I have a sister I'm really close to. And of course, I shared it with them, but I cried on my own, for sure. But I never cried in front of anyone else. I didn't really express how bad it was. In fact, to the point where people would ask, and you know, how are you doing? Yeah, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine. And I would just block it out to them all the time. And that was just making it worse. And actually, when I started to, one of the biggest and most powerful

• 58:56Speaker 00

  steps that I took was opening up to people, to the people closest to me, sharing what I was experiencing with them, allowing them to see my struggle and my vulnerability, and let them help me. That was a big turning point for me, was being able to just express that emotion. And share and open up because part what I was doing was I was isolating myself by not sharing it and that was perpetuating it.

• 59:27Steven Bartlett?

  And these emotions are worry or pressure that you're experiencing because of the sport? Or what were these emotions that you were suppressing or

• 59:34Speaker 00

  Well, so when not when I was competing or, you know, before with the in the beginning, the emotions are different, but in the middle of the illness, like not just not sharing it with people, not expressing how hard I'm finding this, how tough this is, that how sad I am, how frustrated I am, how just like I can't cope anymore kind of emotions, those emotions I wasn't even expressing in the middle of the illness.

• 59:58Steven Bartlett?

  You're being tough.

• 59:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm being poker face Anna, who has learnt to do this because that's what you do in sport. Right?

• 1:00:04Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't that, isn't that almost like there's a bit of a paradox there that the thing that made you successful was also the thing that kind of undid you to some degree, it sounds like.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  Well, so.

• 1:00:12Steven Bartlett?

  That composure and resilience.

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. So when you're on the competitive arena of sport and you turn up on race day, poker face on, game face, I'm tough, whether I've missed the last two weeks because of an injury or for whatever reason, you're never going to know that because I'm, I'm here today and I'm, I'm on fire and, you know, I'm ready to race and that's brilliant on the race arena. But outside of that, not helpful, not helpful in so many ways in terms of building relationships, in terms of building trust, you know, we talk about trust earlier.

• 1:00:49Speaker 00

  You can't build trust and relationships unless you open up, unless you express vulnerability.

• 1:00:54Steven Bartlett?

  So true. I think that's one of the reasons I struggle with my relationships, my romantic relationships is because I bring the tough guy thing into my, into like my personal life sometimes. And it doesn't ever help. And I think the, the progress I've made actually in my personal relationships, as you said, has been by like admitting more that I'm wrong and like saying how I feel and being like, I, you know what I mean? And that's, but that's not conducive with the whole like resilient, tough guy business thing that I have to do.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

• 1:01:28Steven Bartlett?

  It, it doesn't feel like they are, but you're right. Like.

• 1:01:33Steven Bartlett?

  And definitely not mutually exclusive, but they're two different people trying to achieve two different objectives. In business, there's a sense of like, you know, you've got to really like stand up for yourself. You've got to be ruthless to some degree in some situations, especially when you're dealing with teams and this bullshit landing on your desk every day. And you're getting horrible, horrible news and you have to put on a brave face for your team because you just found out that your whole server's been hacked and they've basically, half of them have lost their jobs or the pandemic has just struck. And then going like, I know what you're saying. Do you think of certain moments, I'm thinking of one particular moment, which I always talk about in this podcast, where on the way to work, I got this news that we'd been hacked and I've got a ton, I've got a hundred or 200 people sat in the office in front of me that are now looking through the window and thinking what's going

• 1:02:18Steven Bartlett?

  on. And my, my need to be composed and optimistic at a time when I probably was panicking a little bit inside, I think got us through. I think if I'd walked out there and been like, listen, guys, I am shitting here. But in my personal life, it's very important to have that intimacy and vulnerability.

• 1:02:35Speaker 00

  I think there's a balance actually. And I think in business, you are, if you are able to be a little bit vulnerable, and I'm not saying vulnerable to the point where you look really weak, but vulnerable to the point where you're honest and you might go, do you know what? Shit's happened. And actually, I'm a little bit scared, but we're going to find a way. And I don't know how we're going to figure this out right now. And, and it's not great. And, but, you know, it's about having confidence in who I am and what we do and confident in the people around us and my team and you lot and all of us, that we're going to figure this out.

• 1:03:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  So there's a balance there between I'm human and yes, I'm scared like you because this is shit.

• 1:03:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  And this is a bad situation that we didn't want to happen. And let's admit that. Let's put that on the table and be honest about it. Because people, we build trust with people when we're honest and we show a little bit of vulnerability and humanity. And that's how we build relationships because otherwise we're just putting up this tough guy front all the time who doesn't have any feelings, right?

• 1:03:44Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:44Speaker 00

  And

• 1:03:45Steven Bartlett?

  Can't relate to that, can't resonate, can't connect.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. How do we connect with people? Whereas actually, oh, you're just a human being who's scared too. And I'm scared and therefore it's okay to be scared. But actually I'm scared, but we're going to find a way.

• 1:03:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  So it's confidence and we're going to figure this out because we are good at what we do. You know, our definition, when we do our resilient leader workshops is a resilient leader has confidence in who they are and what they do and understands their areas of strength and their areas of development and finds a way to bounce back and create opportunities. And so if I'm confident in who I am and what I do, yeah, I can admit that I don't know what to do right now, but I know that I have the skills and the resources within me and my people that we're going to figure this out. I don't know what that way forward is yet, but I know that we're going to find a way.

• 1:04:40Steven Bartlett?

  What if, okay, so what if you, and this is me playing devil's advocate, what if you don't know that you're going to find a way? So say you're scared, you don't think you're going to find a way and you think it's all over. So you've got, I don't know, 500 employees out there, they're waiting for you in the middle of the pandemic to make a statement to the team. Do you walk out and lie? If you, within yourself genuinely, as the CEO of a company, don't, you think it's over because of, I don't know, the pandemic has just happened and the business has evaporated. When you walk out in front of your team, surely you've got to just lie to their faces to some degree. Like you've got to, you've got to find

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  I think that you have to believe, we always, no matter what the situation is, we can only be truly great at what we do if we believe without doubt that the future is bright.

• 1:05:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. Some leaders don't. Naturally, you think of, you know, just some people don't. So by like probabilistically, there's going to be some leaders that when the pandemic struck thought we are finished. And that, as we said earlier about like the self fulfilling mindset will actually probably take them out of business. And I just, I don't know, I'm just, because I don't think I've ever been comfortable in my career to tell my team that I'm scared. I don't think I've ever actually been scared because I am, I kind of resist in moments where I probably should be scared. I'm so focused on solutions that the fear or joy or all these other feelings don't really seem to be relevant or useful to me. But I don't think I could bring myself to tell the team I was ever scared when I was at social.

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  Maybe you don't need to say I'm scared, but it might be that, do you know what? Yeah, this is shit.

• 1:06:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could do that.

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  And, and actually, right now, I don't, I don't know how we're going to get out of this. But I do have confidence in my ability and all of us together as a team that we're gonna find a way.

• 1:06:29Steven Bartlett?

  The leaders have to lie sometimes.

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't, I think we need to be honest. I think that we need to be transparent. And the more we can be transparent and we can be honest in what we do, the better relationships we build, the better connections, the more trust we have in a team, and we figure it out together.

• 1:06:52Steven Bartlett?

  I agree.

• 1:06:55Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. So going back to your, I want to know, so what exactly did you do in terms of, you know, daily to overcome your disorder? Was it, was there, you addressed, you know, started expressing yourself more? Was there anything you had to take? Or was there?

• 1:07:10Speaker 00

  No. So there was no medicine, there was no pill, there was no massage treatment, there was nothing like that. It purely is a recognition that the mind and the body are connected. And therefore, I needed to figure out what these triggers are. One of, so to give you a bit of context, so I, leading up to the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games, I left the coach that I was working with that had got me to become a world champion, but I now wanted to go and race at the Olympic Games. And he was very much a marathon coach and And encouraged me to go find someone who really specialized in sprint racing. So I ended up for three years having a coach who was based in another country.

• 1:07:50Speaker 00

  And I would go and train with them sometimes and then I would come back to the UK and I would train on my own. And he would send me the training program, we'd speak on the phone, he'd email it to me, I'd do the training and I would basically train a lot of, most days I would turn up to the training, do the training and I was motivated enough to be able to push myself really hard. I had no problem with training on my own in the sense that I, you know, some people can't push themselves hard enough, I haven't got the motivation to turn up and do that. But the problem with that was that I, and I didn't realise this at the time, I was isolating myself.

• 1:08:29Speaker 00

  And I think I, so I wasn't in, there was my club, I was at my club, but I would turn up to my club and they'd all go off and train separately and I'd train on my own. And then I'd often turn up at times when they weren't there, I wouldn't engage with the British team really much and I was just more and more isolating myself and then getting frustrated because I didn't have a coach who was by my side. And I thought that all I needed to do was train hard. I thought, and the reason I stuck with this coach was because he was a great coach and I thought the training program was brilliant. And I thought, all I need to do is follow a great training program and work really hard. And I thought that was enough. And actually I didn't, I'm not a robot.

• 1:09:14Speaker 00

  And I needed, I needed human connection and I needed emotional support and I needed a place to vent and I needed to be able to show frustration and when the training was hard or when I was exhausted and I had no one to even talk to on the riverside bank, you know, I'm talking to the ducks, you know, it's like, I had no outlet for my emotions. I had no, and I didn't even speak up and tell my coach that I was frustrated that he sent me the program only two minutes before I needed to be at the training, you know, I was going to train and, because there's this five hour time difference and, and I just was probably quite unhappy.

• 1:09:50Speaker 00

  But didn't realise, because I was so focused on the goal and the end goal and got to train hard and this is what it takes, that I was so not in tune with what was going on emotionally. And I was at my best when I was training in a group environment with a coach by my side every day, supporting me. I'm an extrovert. I get my energy from other people. And there I was, spending my days alone, doing this really intense training programme on my own.

• 1:10:24Speaker 00

  That is not conducive to a really good mental and emotional health. And so it was really clear that that was not, that wasn't sustainable. And that was why I had these periods of, oh yeah, three weeks, falling apart and I'd have to stop. And then when I'd get back to an environment that I was happy in, it was all good and I would train hard and I'd be amazing and I'm full of energy and I have my best year. And then it would change and the environment would change. And so my environment and the people around me and my emotional happiness was some of the things that I needed to get a grip on.

• 1:11:01Steven Bartlett?

  It's so fascinating that people really underestimate the value of human connection, but also the environment we're operating in, like hugely. I had a conversation with a friend and he'll be listening to this podcast because he's never ever missed one. He was working at my old company's social chain for many years and he's gone freelance. And he was talking a little bit about feeling a bit burnt out. He came to my house and he was saying, I feel a bit burnt out, I'm lacking motivation in the mornings and things like that. And when I was a freelancer, before I started the company and had 700 people around me all day, I just couldn't find the motivation to like go to my laptop and send the emails. But the minute I was in that environment where we had this kind of like shared goal and I had feedback and community,

• 1:11:43Steven Bartlett?

  my motivation was higher than anyone's in the world. But I don't think people appreciate enough the importance of the environment and the community that you're operating in. And I think there's a certain thing which people don't talk about, which I've talked about in this podcast a couple of weeks ago, which was the side of like freelance depression. And even like you're seeing it with the world now, everyone working remotely, having to get up and like. Now you're realising what your job actually is because before it could have been like seeing Susanna and hearing about her weekend and engaging with the office dogs and this and the sense of community, you've kind of conflated them with your tasks at work and now it's just your tasks. Now you're waking up and on a computer looking at your to do list. And so I think freelance depression, it's almost what you've described there is this like in a lack of fulfillment because

• 1:12:28Steven Bartlett?

  you've lost what was a huge part of what made this pleasurable, enjoyable, but also your, I guess your support network.

• 1:12:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's why, you know, we talked earlier about motivation and what gets you off in the morning and, and actually going in to hear about Susan's weekend or, you know, to see your friends and the connection and the buzz from the atmosphere. And, and that might be what gets you to work, not the task that I've got to do, but actually the people I'm going to hang out with.

• 1:12:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  And that environment. And we need to understand what is that environment that we thrive in. And I think people are realising that over the last 12 months, you know, and especially the extroverts have found this really hard. And if you live on your own and you're still, and you're not able to go into work.

• 1:13:09Steven Bartlett?

  Well, speaking, you're a speaker, you speak around the world and stuff and you, you love speaking, but the minute it becomes just speaking to a laptop over Zoom to a hundred people, you realise that maybe it wasn't just the speaking that I enjoyed, right?

• 1:13:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't just enjoy hearing my own voice. I enjoy the connection.

• 1:13:27Steven Bartlett?

  Or telling my story.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, over and over again. I, I love the connection that I get and the feedback and the, you know, I can't even hear people laugh at my jokes that I think are supposed to be funny. I don't even know if they landed or not. And, you know, when you meet the people afterwards and you go and engage with them and how are you going to apply this and what are you going to put into action and, and all of that stuff, that's, that's, that's the energy that I get when I go and do my work. And that's, that's missing right now. And you're getting it a bit, but not in the same way. And so, and I remember actually, one of the very first things I did with my sports psychologist, he got me to do, I think it was like a Myers-Briggs type assessment, identifying what kind of

• 1:14:11Speaker 00

  personality type I was. And I was a stable extrovert. And

• 1:14:16Speaker 00

  And I don't know what he ever really did with that information, but looking back now, that's such useful information. So for someone, if someone had known that and they could see that I was training every day on my own, without support, without people to feed off, that's where I get my energy. Of course I was losing energy and tired. I wasn't getting.

• 1:14:34Steven Bartlett?

  Your body was sending you a message.

• 1:14:36Speaker 00

  I'm like, I need people to get energy and I'm not surrounded by people. That's just one example of one of the triggers. But, you know, so it was about finding out, what do I need to thrive?

• 1:14:48Steven Bartlett?

  It's fascinating. We had Johann Hari, who wrote the book called Lost Connections on this podcast. His book is behind me, one of my favorite books of all time. He's coming back. His whole, his whole book is about the real, the nine real reasons for anxiety and depression. And to kind of conclude it in a very sort of narrow way, he talks about these feelings we get of loneliness and lack of motivation and anxiety and depression. When you look at all the studies, and he was someone that was depressed and given the pills and, you know, they said, oh, you're broken chemical imbalance. When you look at the studies, it's, it's almost indisputable that much of it these days is because of social factors and our lack of human connection. They've got examples where they've given a guy in Uruguay a goat who was depressed. And because he's got now that connection with an animal, he's,

• 1:15:33Steven Bartlett?

  his depression, his symptoms of depression almost evaporated. But the lives we live in 2021, between four white walls, if we want food, we press an app. If we want, you know, to see our parents, it's through a piece of glass and living alone in these industrialized cities, it's actually completely against our innate human programming. And he says, one of the things he says, which I've written in my book as well, is about how these feelings are our calling to get back to being more human. It's like your body calling, like loneliness is this calling, like get back to your tribe. You know what I mean? And it, and I, and it sounds like woo woo wah wah bullshit, because it's like, well, my loneliness isn't the thing. But what you've just described there is quite literally something that's happened in your mind, having a real substantial, almost devastating and

• 1:16:17Steven Bartlett?

  crippling impact on your body and health. The thought that your mind can disable your body is terrifying on one hand, but also kind of like a really powerful, important, you know.

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  But if you think about many illnesses, ailments from.

• 1:16:36Speaker 00

  Getting a, you know, quite often people will get a headache when they're stressed.

• 1:16:39Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:16:40Speaker 00

  People will get a migraine when, at the end of a stressful period. People will get

• 1:16:44Steven Bartlett?

  Thick.

• 1:16:45Speaker 00

  Sick, you know, so there are so many illnesses that can be considered as emotional, but manifest physically.

• 1:16:55Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:16:55Speaker 00

  So it's not the first example.

• 1:16:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:58Speaker 00

  And, and you know, like your loneliness is my calling to get back. It's an alarm bell, right?

• 1:17:03Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  You're feeling really lonely and it's a warning sign to you. It's a message to say, you need to do something differently. In this example, get back to your tribe. And in the same way that my body, the alarm bells were, I'm going to make you so tired that you can't train. So then you're going to listen and you're going to figure out what it is that you need to do differently to get back to training in a really healthy way. And when I returned back to training, I was able to change lots of things about my environment, about the people I was with, about the pressures I put myself under, you know, all of these things that I'd figured out. And then I trained harder than I had before because I was in a really healthy environment and place and I was listening

• 1:17:49Speaker 00

  to my body and my mind. They call it mind body. And I was able to tune into that and go, every time I was anywhere near, just, hmm, not feeling quite right, I'd go, what's my mind body telling me right now? What is it that's going on that it doesn't like? What do I need to be aware of? And then I could thrive after that.

• 1:18:11Steven Bartlett?

  It's a big shift in conventional thinking because whenever someone exhibits physical illness, people say, oh, what tablet does this person need? You know, what's the chemical?

• 1:18:19Speaker 00

  And, and that's why you'll get lots of different, if you researched CFS, there's so many different schools of thought. Oh, it's a post-viral fatigue. It's, you know, there's lots of, um, Yeah, I guess physiological explanations for it.

• 1:18:37Speaker 00

  And maybe, and there's probably lots of, you know, clinical research behind that suggests that it is. I don't know, but my experience was that something else, and that's all I can go by really.

• 1:18:47Steven Bartlett?

  And you came back to the sport, competing again, I'm guessing.

• 1:18:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I returned two years later and won the world championships and European championships in 2005. And then went on to win two more times after that and compete in Beijing three years later.

• 1:19:02Steven Bartlett?

  Incredible. So now all of that's, you know, that part of your career has ended very, very successfully. And you, you know, you reached the real, I mean, you were the world champion multiple times. Looking forward at your, your, your, the career since then and into the future. What, what matters to you and what's getting you out of bed now and what's making you excited for, yeah, life?

• 1:19:24Speaker 00

  I love helping others now, helping others, sharing, learning from my experiences in sport and taking those lessons and bringing them to other people, mostly in the business world. And developing people, you know, I had, you know, spent a lifetime with coaches who were developing me or the athletes and the team. And it's the same thing, it's about developing people, you know, in business, in sport. It was about getting results through people, developing those people to get results in sport. And now I'm using that to get results for people in business by developing people.

• 1:20:05Speaker 00

  And, and I get a real kick out of, you know, if I'm coaching someone, coaching a director or a leader, whoever it is I was coaching this morning, and seeing them have that aha moment about a limiting belief. You know, getting the new dream job, engaging with the team, being a more confident leader, whatever it is. I love it when I see that change and that transformation in other people. Helping them to change habits, to change behaviours, to excel, to get the best out of themselves. That's what really, that's what motivates me now is, is helping others to fulfil their potential.

• 1:20:45Steven Bartlett?

  Well, listen, it's been an incredibly interesting, diverse conversation, one that's made me have a couple of my own personal epiphanies. So I thank you so much for coming today and sharing your story. Where do people find you if they want to get in touch with you? What's the best way to reach out?

• 1:20:59Speaker 00

  So annahemmings.com. My training consultancy call is called Beyond the Barriers, so beyondthebarriers.uk. I'm on LinkedIn.

• 1:21:07Steven Bartlett?

  They'll find you.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  They'll find me.

• 1:21:08Steven Bartlett?

  2020, we can find everybody. But I thank you so much. Your story is, I mean, it's incredibly multifaceted with twists and turns. And you exhibit so many of the qualities that I think are typical with the most successful people I've ever seen. These topics of resilience and dealing with pressure and the understanding of oneself and your mental state. And I mean, you've got these incredible twists and turns with your illness. So I mean, it's just so incredibly inspiring. And when they suggested that you would join me on this podcast, I thought you were just like the perfect guest for these reasons. And you've blown me away on many occasions and made me feel quite emotional as well. So I just wanted to say

• 1:21:50Steven Bartlett?

  thank you for coming and I hope that we can stay in touch. And yeah, just a thank you more than anything.

• 1:21:57Speaker 00

  Thank you for inviting me on the podcast. It's been a pleasure.