Before You Play That Game, Ask Mastercard For Permission

Before we play video games, it's important to get consent from relevant parties, such as Visa and Mastercard. This week, the Triple Click gang talks about payment processor censorship, Xbox layoffs, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella's wild emails, and much more. Plus: the newfound relevance of South Park.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  This show is a lot of things, but it's not about the enigma of success in an industry that has no franchise value. This is Triple Click, where we bring the games to you and try to figure out what that sentence means. It's what Microsoft CEO said about the company's recent layoffs. We talk about some other gaming news this week, too, like payment processors interfering with which games appear on Steam and itch.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  I'm Maddy Myers.

• 0:31Kirk Hamilton?

  I'm Jason Schreier. And I'm Kirk Hamilton. And hello, friends.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Hello. We're back again.

• 0:37Kirk Hamilton?

  Here we are.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  Back to the show.

• 0:40Jason Schreier?

  Can I tell you guys a funny story? Well, it's not a funny story, but a fun little thing, a fun little observation.

• 0:48Jason Schreier?

  My wife and I watched that movie Funny People. Do you guys remember that movie? And I was just thinking, as I was watching it, I was just thinking, remember a time like 16 years ago when people could just record a comedy that doesn't have a story and it's just like people like making jokes on camera? And it would play in theaters?

• 1:05Kirk Hamilton?

  I feel like that movie was kind of the quintessential example of that, almost to the point where it was the shark jumping moment for like the Apatow, let's sit around and riff.

• 1:12Speaker 00

  It was like the end of that.

• 1:14Jason Schreier?

  It might have been. It really might have been because that movie, it's, it's fun to watch, but it's like, it's wild how there's like a two minute segment of Apatow's kid just singing Cats. And it's like so egregious.

• 1:26Kirk Hamilton?

  I think if you go back and read reviews, you will see the worm turning at that moment on that specific type of comedy.

• 1:32Speaker 00

  People being like, what are we doing here?

• 1:34Jason Schreier?

  But it's just funny. It just feels, it feels such a product of its era because we just don't have comedies in theaters anymore, other than like reboots like Naked Gun, which is about to come out. But there's like no more studio comedies. And so I just found that it was a little kind of surreal to watch that now, after the last few years.

• 1:51Kirk Hamilton?

  Not only that, those movies made money. Remember, like, I don't know, Knocked Up?

• 1:54Jason Schreier?

  That one actually bombed.

• 1:55Kirk Hamilton?

  No, I know, but the successful ones.

• 1:57Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, before that, yes.

• 1:59Kirk Hamilton?

  The Apatow comedy. Forty Year Old Virgin.

• 2:01Jason Schreier?

  Knocked Up.

• 2:02Kirk Hamilton?

  Really big moneymakers.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, end of an era. Welcome to our movie podcast where we talk about comedies every week and the studio system.

• 2:11Kirk Hamilton?

  It's a good subject for a bonus episode.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  It might be. I mean, we did all just watch the studio. So it's certainly certainly a podcast where sometimes we talk about TV and movies. And we actually do that a lot on the bonus feed that we have. And and where might that feed be? How would you? How would you access it as a listener? Well, you would go to maximumfun.org/join and you'd become a member. You'd support our wonderful podcast network and also us triple click and you would get a monthly bonus episode from us. Some of them feature us spilling the beans on video game endings. If we've all played a long RPG that has a story, but also there's bonus episodes about movies and shows. We did an and/or one recently, for example,

• 2:56Speaker 00

  speaking of non video game content, although it's kind of like a nice pairing, wine pairing, wine and cheese pairing with our Tom Bissell interview episode. That is a favorite of mine. So yeah, maximumfun.org/join is the place you should go if you want more triple click. And also, we have some new merch designs in the Max Fun Store, just kind of speaking of our podcast network and how cool it is and triple click extra stuff in general. So go check those out. There's, there's a bunch of neat stuff. More shirts, more pins, very cute pins, some of which were at our live show recently that I got to see in person and be impressed by. They're very cool. And also, last but not least, I mentioned this

• 3:41Speaker 00

  last week, we're all playing The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. On my say so, I demanded it. And now it's happening, folks. We're, we're playing it for an episode that is going to come out on August 7. But we're not playing the whole game. So don't worry, you're not behind. We're just playing up to the Temple of Time. So that's like the whole kid link section of the game. Once he's an adult, we're going to stop there. We're going to do an episode about that. And if you want to play along with us, please do. Also, a lot of people in the triple click Discord playing along already. That's been really fun to see if people are in the Discord. That's definitely a cool way to play as well. So look forward to that, Epp. I've already gotten to the Temple of Time. And boy, what a nostalgia trip. I'm excited to talk about it with you, too.

• 4:27Kirk Hamilton?

  I have accomplished the most important thing in Ocarina of Time, which is I got all of the chickens into the little chicken area last night.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  I did that.

• 4:37Kirk Hamilton?

  If I never hear that chicken sound again, I will die a happy man.

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Maybe not the most fun part of the game.

• 4:42Kirk Hamilton?

  Not a pleasant video game sound effect, among the many great sound effects in Ocarina of Time.

• 4:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, classic.

• 4:49Jason Schreier?

  I have so many thoughts on this game. I'm excited to talk about it, especially, especially fresh off like The Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.

• 4:57Kirk Hamilton?

  I'm actively replaying Tears of the Kingdom, so it's been really fun for me.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  Uh huh. For better or worse, it is making me also want to replay Tears of the Kingdom. But we can talk about that when we, when we get to our Ocarina episode. Jason, what are we talking about in today's episode?

• 5:13Jason Schreier?

  This week, we're talking about news. There's been a lot of news over the last few weeks, and we figured we should hit some of those topics and chime in with the triple click perspective.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Triple take?

• 5:23Jason Schreier?

  Segment name, the triple click, triple take, triple click.

• 5:26Kirk Hamilton?

  Triple take. That's actually pretty good.

• 5:27Jason Schreier?

  Triple thoughts.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  You're welcome. That's free.

• 5:30Kirk Hamilton?

  Double take.

• 5:31Jason Schreier?

  There's a lot to talk about. Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're all three of us just like spitting at the same time.

• 5:38Kirk Hamilton?

  I guess we each just do a single take and then it's a collective triple take.

• 5:41Jason Schreier?

  Or we all take a big sip of coffee and at the same time, I'll just go.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  Triple spit take.

• 5:48Jason Schreier?

  Preface here is that we are recording this on Tuesday. There may be a Nintendo Direct announced this week, and in fact, you might have already watched it, or maybe it's about to come out. As you are listening to this, we are recording before that. So while maybe we can make predictions, we cannot actually talk about the news.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  There will be one, I guess. Seems like it.

• 6:08Jason Schreier?

  We are. Well, I mean, that's the rumor. That is the, the rumor that has been floating around.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Metroid Prime for release date. I'm manifesting it. Give it to me.

• 6:19Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, it feels like time, right? Like feels like if it's coming this year, they do have to announce the release date at some point.

• 6:26Jason Schreier?

  So yeah, let's talk about some news. Let's start with Xbox, some dire news coming out of the box of X. So first of all, earlier this month, there was a huge layoff. Thousands of jobs were cut. Games like Perfect Dark and Everwild were canceled. The studio behind Perfect Dark, the initiative was shut down. Blackbird, which was a new IP from Blackbird, which was this new MMO from Zenimax Online Studios, the makers of Elder Scrolls Online, that was canceled. I wrote a bit about that. And then more recently, we got to see, because Microsoft published a, an email from CEO Satya Nadella, where he talked about the layoffs. I'm going to read that out in a sec.

• 7:09Jason Schreier?

  But also, another interesting kind of data point in the saga of Xbox this month was that The Outer Worlds 2, which Microsoft had said would be sold at $80, actually got a price drop this month. And they said, well, actually, about that. Turns out, we're going to sell it at $70, suggesting that the rise of $80 games might not be coming all that, or might not be going all that smoothly for these game publishers. All right, I'm going to read some, this, just, just a couple of lines from this Nadella email, which is truly something to behold. And then we can talk about Xbox and what is going on over there. All right, so this is from Satya Nadella, CEO of Microsoft. This is part of a larger email.

• 7:54Jason Schreier?

  I'm just going to read two paragraphs. "I also want to acknowledge the uncertainty and seeming incongruence of the times we're in. By every objective measure, Microsoft is thriving. Our market performance, strategic positioning, and growth all point up and to the right. We're investing more in CapEx than ever before. Our overall headcount is relatively unchanged. And some of the talent and expertise in our industry and at Microsoft is being recognized and rewarded at levels never seen before. And yet, at the same time, we've undergone layoffs. This is the enigma of success in an industry that has no franchise value. Progress isn't linear, it's dynamic, sometimes dissonant and always demanding.

• 8:36Jason Schreier?

  But it's also a new opportunity for us to shape, lead through, and have greater impact than ever before."

• 8:44Jason Schreier?

  Guys, are you ready? Are you ready to be the enigma of success in an industry that has no franchise value?

• 8:50Speaker 00

  I'm just kind of picturing like, you know, the, the two guys with their hands clasped in the meme format and like on, it says progress isn't linear. And on one side it's Satya Nadella and on the other side it's my therapist. Like, why is that? Why is that part of this letter?

• 9:06Jason Schreier?

  That's good.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  What is, ugh, the tone, ugh.

• 9:10Jason Schreier?

  So I really just want to know what that means. The, this is the enigma of success in an industry that has no franchise value.

• 9:17Kirk Hamilton?

  Okay, so he is using that sentence, the enigma of success in an industry that has no franchise value, to explain the dissonance that he has outlined, right? So I think we can kind of maybe figure out what he's trying to say. Like, he is, he is just, well, I don't know if I can do it alone. I might need some help.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  All right, well, we'll try.

• 9:36Jason Schreier?

  Rosetta Stone Hamilton.

• 9:38Kirk Hamilton?

  So he is talking about the contradiction at the heart of the Xbox layoffs, which is one of the most profound dissonances and just elements of this company that is making so much money, that has bought up this massive percentage of the games industry and then laid off thousands of people and upended so many careers, canceled so many projects. So I think he's, he's basically trying to explain that seeming contradiction, that a business no longer succeeds by growing, you know, by hiring more people and then making more product and then making more revenue and then hiring more people and expanding and, and just making more money in this linear way that sort of makes sense according to how business used to work 10, 20 years ago.

• 10:20Kirk Hamilton?

  And that now they're this perverse, massive, unprecedented mega corporate entity and success just no longer follows that paradigm. And so, you know, referring to this as an enigma is kind of acknowledging that there is this mystery to how any of this works past a certain point and that we've entered uncharted territory in a way that, as it turns out, is profoundly dangerous for most of the working people who are just, you know, trying to do a job and support their families and make stuff.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. And progress isn't linear kind of tracks with that too, which is the sentence immediately after, because it's like, okay, you have to cut off the branches from the tree and then it's going to grow more, maybe. I, I'm putting more metaphors in here, but. Is like, look, we're cutting back.

• 11:09Jason Schreier?

  The answer here might just be the co-pilot wrote word solid and they didn't like he just put it in there.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Is this, was this written by AI? This is what we're not asking.

• 11:20Kirk Hamilton?

  It's totally corporate speak. We do not need to spend longer parsing this because I don't think that it's actually possible to determine exactly what he meant, but I think that the gist is kind of there. It's, it's a way of avoiding specifically talking about what they're doing and speaking in such big picture terms that it becomes essentially meaningless. And to me, at least it just obfuscates the role that Microsoft management played in all these people losing their jobs.

• 11:44Jason Schreier?

  This is a quote from a Bloomberg feature in May profiling Satya Nadella. Quotes, uh, at the office, he relies on Copilot, which is Microsoft's AI tool to deliver summaries of messages he receives, receives and outlook and teams and toggles among at least 10 custom agents from Copilot Studio. He views them as his AI chiefs of staff, delegating meaning prep, research and other tasks to the bots.

• 12:11Kirk Hamilton?

  Other tasks like maybe coming up with sentences like the enigma of success in an industry that has no franchise.

• 12:17Jason Schreier?

  So let's talk about Xbox for a bit because I think it's really telling that in this, this kind of new phase of Xbox where, where they are trying to, I mean, essentially we're at this point where they have to cut a bunch of jobs because they want to boost profit margins and their revenue is not growing in a significant way because Game Pass is plateaued and a lot of their just overall business is relying on the Activision part of it. If you look at the kind of the numbers, a lot of their growth has come just from Call of Duty and Activision. And so the way for them to get higher profit margins if revenue isn't going up is to cut costs. And so that is coming at a time when also at the same time, they are lowering the price of Outer Worlds 2 from $80 to $70, among other moves.

• 13:03Jason Schreier?

  That I think are really interesting. If you're looking at Xbox as a whole. We've talked about their kind of lack of strategy and they're just kind of frazzling and bouncing around from piece to piece. I think we talked about this last year when they announced. That they were officially going multi-platform in this kind of staggered way where at first it was just like, it's just four games. And that gradually became, oh, actually, every single game we make is going to be on PlayStation. But now we're in this weird place where it seems like they're more desperate than ever. At the same time as they employ 20 something thousand people in the gaming industry. So kind of a strange position. What do you guys make of Xbox's current position and what do you think happens next?

• 13:47Speaker 00

  I'm kind of worried that Xbox is not exactly what Microsoft as a company is focusing on. I mean, I know we just told some jokes about AI and this is just me speculating, but like we're all implying it kind of seems like Xbox is getting diminished slightly in favor of other projects at Microsoft. So I'll just say that preliminarily is my my attempt at corporate understanding. And because of that, this reads to me like any project that wasn't immediately succeeding or had some type of problem is just if the plug is getting pulled now. I'm, I will say personally, I'm pretty sad about the perfect art thing. I was really excited about that game.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  And I made you two play a perfect art game on this show in part because I have a soft spot for that series. And I think that it's a really cool idea to reboot it and make a modern version of it. And just as a person, just a regular civilian who's not involved, I can't believe that they couldn't make that work somehow. And I don't understand why they couldn't make it work.

• 14:52Kirk Hamilton?

  Especially given that demo they showed of it was cool as hell, at least as a conceptual thing.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  It looked cool. Now, I guess that was all smoke and mirrors. I don't know, but it did kind of seem like a pretty cool idea. There's some fun lore that's pretty silly in its base game, but could be written out to be more interesting. I mean, it's a, it's a spy network world where aliens exist and there's government coverups that's fun, that's cool. Good ideas. Anyway, I don't see as civilian Matty, why they couldn't make that work. But when I'm trying to pretend to be. Satya Nadella's co-pilot assistant, Matty, I'm like, okay, yeah, I guess this game's not immediately succeeding. So we're just gonna cut it and we're gonna focus on other projects here.

• 15:33Jason Schreier?

  I mean, it was in development for a very long time. I think I can see after it's actually, the fact that you had us play it actually helps me understand why it didn't work. Because the stories that we heard, I don't remember how much of this was public versus how much I've just heard, kind of been talking to people who worked on it over the years. But the stories that I always heard was that the vision holders, the director level people didn't know what they wanted it to be. Is this a stealth game? Is this a James Bond game? Is it a shooter? Is it a Splinter Cell? What the heck is this? And actually, playing the N64 game, do you guys remember that one mission where they're like, you have to sneak this one through, Joanna, you're gonna have to. And then the first thing you do is like, blow up a bunch of dudes. And it's kind of like, even that

• 16:17Jason Schreier?

  game was kind of like teasing it being some sort of spy gadget game when really it was just kind of a shooter. And that that made me feel like, oh, okay, I can totally see why some people would use this source material or have this source material and not be able to figure out what to do with the game, because everybody has a different idea of what it should be.

• 16:34Kirk Hamilton?

  It's funny, because all they needed to do was play No One Lives Forever, and then that's the game. Like, just make that and make Joanna Dark the main character instead of Kate Archer. You've got it. That's the game.

• 16:43Jason Schreier?

  Well, that's why you should be in charge of some of those games.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, why don't you just make it good? Make a good game. It's so easy. Is everyone liking this?

• 16:54Jason Schreier?

  As for the Smoky Mirrors part, I mean, I think that's interesting. I think I saw there was a rumor that was floating around. And then I saw a designer who had worked on it was writing on Blue Sky that like, it was actually, it was all functional. It was all real prototypes that they were playing around with. It's interesting. I don't know, fake is kind of a funny word when it comes to demos and stuff, because sometimes something can be functional, but that doesn't mean it'll work at scale.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  Or be fun.

• 17:19Jason Schreier?

  Like technologically, or even gameplay wise, or fun, like something could be fun, seem fun in a prototype, but doesn't mean it's fun when you have to do it 1000 times throughout the course of a game. So yeah, there's a lot of kind of variables there. But yeah, looking broader, Perfect Dark and Everwild, and then a few more. I mean, Blackbird, I mentioned a few others. All of them kind of outside of the big franchises. I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more of kind of like doubling down on the the big series that work, the established ones, the fallouts in Call of Duties of the world. Also, games, I mean, at least in Everwild's and Perfect Dark's case and Blackbird's, games that have been in development for a very long time. So not like bets they made a couple of years ago, but bets they made.

• 18:04Jason Schreier?

  In Everwild's case, I think that game started nine or 10 years ago. So we're talking about games that have been in the process for a long time. There's kind of an overall conversation to be had about lack of oversight across Xbox game studios. And if that's a problem, I mean, some game developers would be thrilled for a lack of executive interference. But then on the flip side of that, you have a lot of games that just kind of flounder in pre-production for years and years without any executive interference. So there's always kind of a balancing act there. And I always think that's an interesting conversation. But bigger picture, I'm curious, I mean, do we think that Xbox is just gonna like, what does the future of Xbox look like from here? Are they just gonna have these layoffs every six months until like something comes to a head?

• 18:49Jason Schreier?

  Are they gonna just be a third party publisher that maybe dabbles in hardware too? Like, what does Xbox look like in five years? It's so hard to imagine. Whereas like, I feel like we know what Nintendo and PlayStation are gonna look like in five years.

• 19:01Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, I think that I don't, I mean, I don't have an answer to that question. I just think it's remarkable that the answer to it also answers in a large sense what the video game industry will look like. Because Microsoft has become so huge and owns so much of the video game industry that it's just a remarkable shift that's occurred even since the three of us first started writing about video games. You know, just over the last 15 years. A really significant change. And I think this is something that will just keep coming up, that these companies that have become so large and so diversified, particularly in terms of their internet business, that they just run the internet.

• 19:45Kirk Hamilton?

  And then because, as we've learned, the internet is real life, these companies basically run the world in a very real way. Watching Microsoft have some layoffs and cancel some projects is this massive event. I mean, thousands of people's lives were impacted. So many hours of work were thrown away. It's this seismic event because they're so big. It's just so different from, you know, I don't know, the laundromat down the street laying a couple of people off because they can't afford to keep up headcount, like even though it's technically the same thing. And I'm struck by the fact that over and over again, we keep running into this dissonance between how we think of private enterprise

• 20:30Kirk Hamilton?

  and private, you know, the private sector, and how we think of government because private companies run so much of the world and in particular, so much of the internet. And Microsoft is included in that. So that's really where my head is at. And it's partly related to some of the other things that we're talking about today. But I just really, it's very head spinning and it's really hard to get your arms around it.

• 20:51Jason Schreier?

  So one other data point that I think you guys will find interesting. So as I mentioned before, one of the reasons this is happening is because revenue is not really growing in a substantial way for the Xbox unit, other than the Activision part of it. One of the reasons that happening is that a lot of people believe that the console market has plateaued. There's 100 million, maybe 150 million people who will buy consoles at its peak and it's not going up from there. And one of the reasons that at least I think that is happening is because a lot of younger people are just not interested in getting new Xboxes or PlayStations. And one of the reasons that is happening is because of a game called Grow a Garden. Have you guys heard of Grow a Garden?

• 21:34Speaker 03

  From you.

• 21:36Jason Schreier?

  Grow a Garden is a game within Roblox that has hit a peak of more than 21 million concurrent players. I'm gonna say that again, 21 million concurrent players, which makes it the highest of all time. Grow a Garden is also not a game that you hear a lot on gaming podcasts, or just about anywhere in the space that we occupy, or that I'm guessing most listeners to this show occupy, unless their kids have played it. And that is because Grow a Garden is kind of emblematic of what the new generation is playing, which is that they are picking up their phones, or computers even, or tablets, and they are logging into Roblox and playing this hot shit new game that all of their friends are playing. And they are no longer

• 22:16Jason Schreier?

  giving any sort of iota of care to Halo, or Gears of War, or even, I mean, less so, but even like the likes of God of War, or Spider-Man are a little less powerful than than these Roblox games. And that is where the trends are going. That is where the people are going. So, I mean, if we're looking at the future of Xbox, we can't not look at these games on Roblox that have taken just an outsized share of young people's attention and eyeballs. I mean, that number, I think I saw a stat that like, that number, the number of concurrent players on Grow a Garden, was more than like, the top 100 concurrent Steam games all combined. Like, to put that in perspective.

• 22:58Kirk Hamilton?

  Do you see that, where do you see that going? I mean, we're talking about a bunch of kids playing a game that is kind of designed for kids and fun in a way that kids like. But as those kids get older, what do you think they're gonna play? I mean, will it just be they'll keep playing games like that all the way into their 40s? Or will it evolve? And, you know, will it, they, will their tastes maybe change? And could they even start liking to play games like, a little more like the ones that we, for example, talk about?

• 23:26Jason Schreier?

  I don't know, man, because the three of us, we grew up on games like Ocarina of Time.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true.

• 23:31Jason Schreier?

  And I bring that up because that's what we're about to play.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  But also it's true.

• 23:33Jason Schreier?

  And like, we've just kind of followed that trajectory to modern day Zelda games and other just kind of like the blockbuster games that we like to play and smaller games that we like to play too. It's really hard to know if like these people just like are growing up thinking about Roblox as their platform and that's just like what they're going to stick with. I don't know.

• 23:52Kirk Hamilton?

  I wonder, because Ocarina of Time, one of the fascinating things about that game is the potential that it has. You play it and you can see the dream, right? I think we've talked about this for years since Breath of the Wild, where Breath of the Wild felt like an actualization of the dream that we felt when we played Ocarina of Time. And my experience of playing video games as a kid was very much the feeling of, man, one day, video games are going to be like movies, you know, they're going to be so amazing. They're going to allow me to do anything. I'm going to have worlds that I can explore. And we arguably live in that world now. And so the child me grew into that world and that world grew up around me. I wonder what kinds of games a kid that plays Roblox dreams of? Or do they not?

• 24:35Kirk Hamilton?

  Is it just different because they know there are games like that out there and they don't care because they just want to play Grow a Garden?

• 24:41Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, I don't know. I think they just want to play what their friends are playing and what is super fun to play and talk about at school.

• 24:47Kirk Hamilton?

  It's very different.

• 24:47Jason Schreier?

  I don't know. I really, I don't have, my kids aren't old enough to be in this world. I'll have more perspective on this in a few years when my kids are like in elementary school playing Roblox games or whatever else with their friends.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  To see what they're interested in.

• 24:59Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, then I'll be able to share the kiddo, the kiddo point of view. But I really don't know, Kirk. I don't know the answer to that. I mean, what do your nieces say? Like, they're into more traditional like Switch games, right?

• 25:09Kirk Hamilton?

  They don't play Roblox. Yeah, they mostly play Switch.

• 25:12Jason Schreier?

  They're too old for Roblox, right?

• 25:14Kirk Hamilton?

  They're 14 and 11, so no. Roblox is around and their friends play it, but they're just not, I don't think, really very into it. And they, they really like the Switch too. Like, they play Zelda, they play Mario Kart.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I mean, Roblox is also kind of like, maybe this is an unfair comparison, but like when I was a teenager. My friends and I all had Steam and there were a certain amount of games on Steam and that would just be the platform almost that we would find games on and play together at a LAN party or whatever. And then obviously, you know, some of us had consoles too. But if we're just talking about like a gaming platform, Steam was one and you had to have an account, et cetera. And Roblox kind of reminds me of that, but it's like the super turbo 2025 version of that where also there's all this user generated content on there. And then there's also like companies that are specifically developing for Roblox. And then there's scammers who are specifically developing to take advantage of children

• 26:09Speaker 00

  on Roblox. And there's that whole just mishmash of different kinds of content on there, but it's a platform. It's not like it's just one game. It's more equivalent to a Steam of the modern day, I think. So I imagine that some future version of the kids growing up on Roblox today will just maybe still be playing stuff on Roblox, but they'll also be playing stuff probably on other competitive platform style games that like Fortnite was a forerunner of and still is. And there will probably be a Roblox competitor, but also there might be games that are kind of like our imagined traditional narrative, single player game. There already are games like that on Roblox. We just don't necessarily

• 26:53Speaker 00

  hear about them because they don't become so popular that even people who say to themselves, I'm not a gamer, still play them. Like Roblox even includes those people who are just playing like the viral game where you just click on stuff a bunch of times and it doesn't require a lot of your time. There's all different kinds of stuff on there. And so I just, I don't know. I feel like it's just an indication of how much of gaming is competing platforms now. And Xbox is another platform, but it's like an old one for old people now. And it has that baggage.

• 27:25Jason Schreier?

  That's a good distinction. Another headline, another news headline that is relevant to this conversation is that the Switch 2 is the fastest selling console in US history. It sold 1.6 million units just in the US in its first month, June, and surpassed the previous record, which was the PlayStation 4. And so it was the best selling console of the month. I think the Switch 1 outsold the Xbox in that same month, which is also

• 27:54Speaker 00

  That makes sense, though.

• 27:56Jason Schreier?

  indicative of where Xbox is.

• 27:57Kirk Hamilton?

  Did you see Totello had that statistic about the Pro Controller for the Switch 2? That's selling incredibly well, which is a remarkable statistic on its own.

• 28:04Jason Schreier?

  Crazy attach, right? Well, actually, I think that statistic is very telling because to me, it suggests that like the people buying the Switch 2 right now are really the hardcore crowd. And it'll be the next couple of years that we see if that console market has plateaued or if the Switch 2 can actually surpass its predecessor, which would be really interesting to see. At the same time, as this Xbox has like fully abandoned all exclusivity ideas, they're 100% multi-platform. I don't think there's going to be a single Xbox game in the coming years that is not on PlayStation, which studio heads and the people who are trying to keep track or trying to hit revenue goals at studios are very, very happy about if they are part of Xbox.

• 28:46Jason Schreier?

  And at the same time, PlayStation's Helldivers 2, which is a PlayStation game, is on, is going to Xbox, is coming out for the Xbox. So just a lot of just kind of movement and shaking all over the console space these days, which it seems like the only fully exclusive stuff is now really Nintendo, which is how Switch 2 is the fastest selling gaming console in the US ever.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's really maintained its reputation as the normie console, though. And part of why I say that is because I'm just biased by this anecdote that I'm going to tell where I just, I met a woman my age earlier this week who told me, quote, "I'm not a gamer. I just play games on my phone and my Switch." And I'm like, this is just the person. This is the person. This is so many. People in the world, which of course I told her, I consider you a gamer. That's a whole separate conversation. You two understand what I'm saying, though. It just, the Switch one already had that huge market share of just people who are like, well, that's another device I own. It's like my iPad or my Kindle and my Switch and my phone. And these are all just devices and the Switch two being kind of like a new iPhone.

• 29:58Speaker 00

  That just makes sense to those people, I think. So I feel like even though maybe now it's the pro controller havers, it's the people like us who are buying it. I do feel like Nintendo just still has that reputation parentheses complimentary.

• 30:14Jason Schreier?

  So, but what's interesting about that is that despite that, despite the fact that the Switch has occupied that space in our culture. It is still sold, only sold more like around 150 million units. Which suggests that as Phil Spencer believes, a lot of industry analysts believe the console market is really plateaued there. And you're not going to see it get much higher than that.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  That could be true.

• 30:37Jason Schreier?

  And that, that I think is what will be really interesting to see in the coming years. Because obviously a whole lot more people than that are playing Grow a Garden, are playing Roblox, they're playing on these Fortnite and these big platforms. So that's, that's an interesting data point. And I think a lot of people have anecdotes like that where like their mommy friend has a Switch. But, but still it's only able to hit that 150 million mark. That to me is really interesting. Is there a market for like, is that market going to grow further? Or have we really like matured as the console market really matured? Will be the ongoing question. And I think the, the real biggest question of the next couple of years in the, the big budget gaming industry will be like, has the console market matured?

• 31:19Jason Schreier?

  And if so, what does that mean for games and software and hardware companies?

• 31:24Kirk Hamilton?

  Right. And there'll be these sort of inflection points GTA six, you know, things that will tell like, let us read a few more tea leaves when it comes to answering that question.

• 31:32Speaker 00

  And like GTA 6 brings back in the people who haven't played games for a while and are like, "Okay, now I'm gonna maybe buy whatever the newest console is, even though I haven't played games for 10 years, because this interests me, someone who's been out of the game, no pun intended, for however long." I mean, I do think that is gonna happen, too.

• 31:52Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, cuz GTA Online is just one of those kind of mega phenomenon, phenomena on the likes of Fortnite and Roblox. Alright, uh, let's, let's try to get through one more headline, cuz there's one more big story that's been going on. This is more recent that we should talk about, which is payment processor censorship. And this has been really interesting to watch, and, um, uh, feels like the beginning of something. So, the short version of the story is that, um, payment processors, Visa, Mastercard, PayPal, um, a lot of these companies that essentially facilitate, like, our, the transfer of money in order to buy video games, are pressuring Steam, the PC gaming platform, and itch, which is a smaller scale PC gaming platform, or meant for,

• 32:35Jason Schreier?

  like, very small indie games, um, pressuring those platforms to take down games with certain types of adult content, pornography, there's a whole list of just kind of like, itch actually posted a list of restrictions that they're adhering to. Um, and Visa and Mastercard, the payment processors, have a lot of leverage in these situations, because if they decide, "We're not gonna work with you anymore," then suddenly Steam is fucked. Like, Steam cannot operate anymore without payment processors. Um, and so, these platforms are acquiescing, and that's become a whole big conversation recently. There've been a lot of headlines, a lot of petitions floating around. Um, so far, this has not really hit, um, a lot of the more mainstream games. As far as I know, there hasn't been just kind of like a big budget

• 33:17Jason Schreier?

  game, or a mainstream game that has been taken down by this. But, as we all know, when it comes to censorship, often adult content, or like, quote-unquote, "objectional" content, is the, the kind of, the first line of defense, and it can really, uh, to switch metaphors, it can get the snowball rolling from there. Um, so this was really interesting to watch. Have you guys been, uh, keeping an eye, keeping an eye on this? What do you make of this whole conversation?

• 33:43Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, you know, you say it's the beginning of something. It feels to me like it's just a new act in a ongoing story. This is very similar to past sort of actions taken against porn companies in Pornhub, Tumblr even, when Apple pulled Tumblr from the App Store, that led to the Tumblr porn ban. OnlyFans, if you remember OnlyFans briefly saying, you know what, actually, we're not going to allow porn on OnlyFans. And everyone said, then why do you exist? And they said, okay, never mind, we will allow it. And they kind of walked that back. So there's been, this is kind of a known playbook at this point. And with Pornhub, for example, that movement was about child sexual abuse material on Pornhub that was being hosted.

• 34:28Kirk Hamilton?

  That, and I think revenge porn. There was a New York Times piece, was it Nicholas Kristof? There's a, there's like a Netflix documentary about this that I haven't watched that I think lays this whole story out. But basically, he revealed, like, there's all kinds of horrible shit on Pornhub that Pornhub isn't doing anything about. And that led to this pressure from payment processors who have all of this leverage to say like, yo, we don't want our pay, you know, we don't want to use Visa to bankroll revenge porn that you're hosting on Pornhub. And that led to this whole huge crackdown on Pornhub. They got rid of a whole bunch of stuff that they were hosting. And so this kind of keeps happening where these platforms like Pornhub, or in this case, Steam,

• 35:09Kirk Hamilton?

  that are so huge and have so much content that they don't really moderate it, or at least they say they're moderating it, but they can't really keep up, or they're misleading people about how much moderation they're doing. They claim they have some AI tool that can do stuff, but it's not sufficient. For whatever reason, they wind up with content that someone finds objectionable. And then the way to go after them, instead of, you know, what, going to Congress? Forget about it. Like, you go to people who can actually leverage power. And in this case, that's the same kind of people I was talking about before, the people who actually control the internet. Either payment processors or, you know, Someone like Apple, who can pull you from the App Store and basically destroy your business. Or, I don't know, remember like, the Daily Stormer got taken down by CloudFlare?

• 35:53Kirk Hamilton?

  I think this was in the wake of Charlottesville, where like, CloudFlare, who just provide infrastructure for the internet, basically said, "No, this, we're not going to become a Nazi bar." And they just pulled the Daily Stormer, which was like, great, fine, like, pull the neo-Nazis. But at the same time, that did have people kind of asking some of these same questions, like, huh, okay, so the people who control the internet can sort of just decide what gets to be on the internet and what doesn't get to be on the internet. So you combine that reality of the internet with this kind of multi-front campaign to censor certain types of content, or to just get rid of certain types of content that certain people don't like, and that's how you wind up where we are now.

• 36:33Kirk Hamilton?

  It's a new front in that ongoing campaign, and it is different in some ways, but I think it's all part of this really complex thing. And the one big difference here, that I see at least, especially compared with some of those things I was talking about with like, Pornhub, etc., is that now we're just talking about like, creative artistic material. As far as I know-

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, fictional work, yeah.

• 36:58Kirk Hamilton?

  Right. The game that they're going after, there's a game called No Mercy, that's like, a game that simulates rape. It sounds really horrible. There's a lot of these kinds of like, low-budget crappy weird, but like, really creepy and disturbing games. They're just out there. I think they kind of picked that to go after this, these groups that organized this campaign. At the same time, like, that is a different thing than actual child sexual abuse materials, or actual revenge porn, that is like, real people, that's being hosted illegally. Like, that stuff is against the law to even have. Whereas, this other stuff is First Amendment-protected speech.

• 37:34Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, you make a very good point that I hadn't really thought much about, but really should, which is that a lot of the tools that we think of as just kind of neutral, or just kind of like, tools, like a hammer or nail, that are internet tools, like payment processors, and clouds, and servers, and Google Drive, or whatever, are owned by companies with political views and- Profits seeking fiduciary duties to shareholders and all that other good stuff that that makes them want to take actions like this. But the other part of this equation, of course, is that what makes games different than other media, I think, is that Steam, which is the biggest store in the world for selling games, really has no filter. You can pretty much put anything on there. And if you ever look at the new games on Steam,

• 38:19Jason Schreier?

  it's hilarious how many ridiculous porn games and clones and it's almost reminiscent of the Apple Store in that it's all, there's a lot of garbage on there. And in many ways, that's a good thing. Who wants gatekeepers in charge of like what games we get to play? But on the flip side of that, you run into issues like this where because there's no filters on there where like something could be so extreme that most kind of, I don't know, normal people would look at that and be like, oh, God, like, no, I don't want my kid to be able to potentially buy that on Steam. And that's how you get into kind of tricky waters where you might feel like this is objectional. And then from there, like if you are a zealot at Visa or Mastercard, you can be like, well, all right, we got that off.

• 39:00Jason Schreier?

  Now let's move on to, I saw, was it Quantic Dreams game Detroit Become Human that was brought up? Because that has, was that the right one? Detroit Become Human? Because it has like-

• 39:11Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, that's a previous, that was a previous campaign by one of the Australian organization that has also got GTA V taken out of Kmart, I think, in Australia. But yes, they had a petition for that game too earlier.

• 39:23Jason Schreier?

  Right. So point being, yeah, point being that like first you, you, once you get rid of, if you're a Visa, if you're a zealot of Visa or Mastercard, you get rid of all the games that are like objectively awful and that nobody would ever want their kids to play or look at or whatever. Then you start moving into games where it's like, wait a minute, like this is actually something that is done a little bit thoughtfully. It might be clunky or whatever, it might be bad, but like we still think, I mean, that game 12 minutes that we all played had like the incest ending. And all of us are like, oh my God, this is awful. But like, it's not like we don't want that game to be sold on stores, right? So like-

• 39:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, unfortunately, I still want it in stores.

• 39:59Kirk Hamilton?

  That's a great example because incest is one of the categories that's-

• 40:02Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, incest is one of the-

• 40:03Kirk Hamilton?

  On this itch list.

• 40:04Jason Schreier?

  It's so interesting because like in movies, like you don't have movie like it is not, you can't log into Netflix and see the types of like low level movies that you can find on Steam.

• 40:14Kirk Hamilton?

  Or on Pornhub.

• 40:15Jason Schreier?

  Games are really just a unique space in there. Yeah, right?

• 40:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I do feel like there is that distinction, though, that Kirk brought up, which is fictional content versus not. And it is interesting that games are being targeted as opposed to, say, fictional movies that aren't, for example, depicting actual revenge porn. I'm not talking about like, oh, this is a stuff film-esque situation. We're talking fiction only here. I think games are still targeted because they just have a certain kind of unsavory reputation low these many decades later because you are.

• 40:48Jason Schreier?

  And they're associated with kids.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're associated with kids, but also you're acting it out in the game. And so in a way, you're doing it. And like, that is supposedly the appeal of some of these kind of less than savory games and sex games, and also the appeal of them when they're good. That is like what can be fun about sex games, right? When we aren't morally opposed to them, whatever, wherever you personally draw that line, listener, you decide. But that's part of why you can't draw the line, right? Because it's all fictional and we have to just be okay with all of it. But also, I just, I do think it's interesting that games are still in this weird category for these kinds of conservative groups that organize these types of boycotts.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Because yes, it's the kids thing, but I do also think there's something else to games that is considered like more extreme in some way.

• 41:40Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, the interactivity is part of it, I'm sure. There is really a strong through line related to children.

• 41:46Speaker 00

  Yes, for sure.

• 41:46Kirk Hamilton?

  This is mean, all of these movements, it's about protecting the children. I mean, this goes back to the Satanic Panic, man. Like, this has been with us for decades and it is just this. You know, sometimes hard to argue with statement of we must protect the children. And who doesn't want to protect children? But at the same time, it can be used to go after so many different types of art. It can be used to go after so many different types of people. And it's always the children. I mean, so much of the language here is about children finding, you know, video games with horrible objectionable content. And that's very similar to what was going on with Pornhub, where it was like, well, I mean, there's like child sexual abuse material on this platform. Like, children are being exploited and hurt.

• 42:31Kirk Hamilton?

  And it's, this platform is part of it. And it's like part of all of this. I mean, there's just this whole world dedicated to like, just this kind of political action, this kind of campaign. And some of it's in good faith and some of it doesn't feel like it's in good faith. But I mean, it's tied to all of these, you know, kids and online safety bills that keep passing. Like in the UK and Australia, the one they've got kicking around in America. That's the legislative approach. This seems to be more the activist, you know, pressure the platform holders approach. And of course, that, the line is just constantly moving. And it can go in so many, so many unfortunate directions.

• 43:12Kirk Hamilton?

  I mean, I've seen a lot of queer creators, I think justifiably, expressing fear that anything that they make, anything LGBTQ related could be designated pornography.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it's getting co-opted, too.

• 43:25Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Jason Schreier?

  It gets tricky because I think that like, the three of us would probably all say, we're not, we're not in favor of censorship, right? Like, we are anti censorship. We are pro free speech and creation. But at the same time, if someone said to you guys, like, hey, there's this game that Steam just put out, where it's called Rape Simulator, and you have to rape as many people as you can. Or like, here's a game, and it's called Holocaust Simulator, and you have to figure out how many Jews you can kill at the same time. We would be like, oh, my God, Steam should probably not have that on there. Or, I don't know, I shouldn't speak for you guys, but at least I would feel that way, so.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's like a gut reaction where you're, that most people would have. Where you're like, oh, why is Steam letting that be there? I, yeah.

• 44:05Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, well, and so that- That's what makes this this conversation so interesting, I think, and tricky, because clearly these using Visa and MasterCard, I think a lot of people are against using like payment processors as the arbiters of what gets to go on there and what get what doesn't. But at the same time, there does have to be a standard. There does have to be kind of a bar of like, man, maybe this should not be allowed on our platform. Maybe if you do want to play Holocaust simulator, you should have to jump through some hoops and like find the developer's website and not just have it on the Steam trending topic.

• 44:37Kirk Hamilton?

  And it's very difficult. I mean, this has been a question with porn regulation forever. I can't remember who said that quote. I think it was the Supreme Court Justice. I know it when I see it, basically.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:46Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:47Kirk Hamilton?

  Bing, just a little history lesson here. I know it when I see it was said by Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart in 1964. And this was related to Jacob Ellis v. Ohio, which was a Supreme Court decision in 1964 that held that a movie theater could not be prosecuted for possessing pornographic films or showing those films at the theater. Okay, so just a little bit of history. Back to the show. Bing. This, I mean, you talk about a Holocaust simulation game, which would be awful. And yet, if you've ever read about Brenda Romero's Train, this is a game that is about the Holocaust in which you are cast as someone helping facilitate the Holocaust. And yet, it is a work of art. It is a very thought provoking and profound game.

• 45:32Jason Schreier?

  A bar game.

• 45:33Kirk Hamilton?

  It is. But but you could imagine a video game version of it. It's a mechanical representation of enacting the Holocaust. And it is like designed as art and it is

• 45:43Speaker 00

  It's intended to to comment on it being bad.

• 45:46Kirk Hamilton?

  So it raises this question, right of not only how do you make that distinction? But then there's this bigger question or this related question, I suppose, that you that you mentioned, Jason, of who gets to be the arbiter? There really isn't anyone. And so now we've just got like people at Visa, apparently, just get to decide what gets to be where. And while I don't, it's not even about agreeing with any one of their decisions. That just does not seem like the way that we should be deciding these things.

• 46:14Jason Schreier?

  Absolutely not. I saw this incredible meme. That was like the couple with the Jesus and the couple is like, the man is like, I can say the woman is like, I can say. And it's like, haven't you, haven't you asked someone else? And then it's like, I don't.

• 46:29Jason Schreier?

  Yeah. Didn't you forget to ask Visa? Um, yeah, but, but like, yeah, it because so much of this is about taste, right? Like the difference between train and the difference between a game that is like rack up points by throwing Jews into gas chambers. Like though that you kind of need human arbiters, not credit card processor arbiters. And you need them to know what they're talking about, right? They need to know games. And maybe ultimately it's a company like Valve that has to like be held responsible for that. And you could argue, I mean, there are a lot of arguments to be had that I don't think have a straight answer about like how good a job they're doing there. But yeah, I, I'm with you there, Curry. So like the credit card processors and certainly the, the right wing groups and the kind of the censorship groups

• 47:11Jason Schreier?

  that are pressuring the credit card processors to, to, and certainly helping in that campaign. Shouldn't be the ones making that call.

• 47:19Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah. And what, one final thought I, I guess that I have related to this is just that this is in some ways an argument in favor of stronger and more comprehensive net neutrality. Or by that, I mean, you know, treating infrastructure, like key web infrastructure as a public utility. Only because this is similar to if the water company decided that it didn't like strong songs. And they just said, we're not giving you water anymore.

• 47:46Kirk Hamilton?

  It's like, and I'd be like, wait, we need water. Like, sorry, but like, you can't just turn off the water to my house just because you don't like my music podcast. You're like, I'm sorry, but we just don't agree that Radiohead is a good band. We think they suck. You know, but it is a little bit like that where you're like, hang on, this, this should be regulated. Like things like processing payments on the internet or hosting a website or having an RSS feed that allows you to communicate with other people. These are like fundamental internet rights. They seem like the kinds of things that everyone should be able to have access to. And then the protections over what they do and the restrictions over what they do should be regulated. In some other way than just by unaccountable private corporations.

• 48:27Jason Schreier?

  Hmm. Although Valve is also an unaccountable private corporation. I know. They would ultimately have to be the arbiters, too.

• 48:33Kirk Hamilton?

  But then again, they are a store keep and like they, the person who owns the store having to adhere to certain laws related to what they can sell in that store, that is just something that America's been doing for a long time. And that at least is a paradigm that makes sense. Where the water company turning off the water, the power company just saying, you know what, fuck you guys, we don't like what you sell in your bookstore. We're turning off your power. That seems like, whoa, like, hang on, you guys shouldn't be the ones making this decision.

• 48:58Jason Schreier?

  Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and of course, this comes at a time where books are being banned across the country in a lot of these kind of right wing enclave. Yeah, it's really worrying. Areas and yeah, a lot of kind of quote unquote concerned moms groups pressuring all sorts of different companies. So yeah, censorship has been a, a big, big conversation topic. All right, that is it for the news roundup. Let's take a break and we'll be back with one more thing.

• 49:29Speaker 04

  Hey, it's John Mo from Depresh Mode. Every week on our show, we have honest, humane conversations with artists, entertainers, and experts about what it's like to live with an interesting mind. I just interviewed Gavin Rossdale from the band Bush. You might be wondering, what would a successful, handsome, popular musician know about mental health? Turns out, lots.

• 49:51Speaker 05

  All the time, we're like, we're forced into happy situations, sad situations, challenging situations, happy, sad, challenging. And it just never ends. And why should it? You know, we're just the sum of all these journeys.

• 50:06Speaker 04

  Check out Depresh Mode with John Mo every Monday at MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Have you been looking for a new podcast all about nerdy pop culture? Well, I have just the thing for you. Secret Histories of Nerd Mysteries.

• 50:22Speaker 06

  Secret Histories of Nerd Mysteries is a weekly pop culture history podcast hosted by me, host Austin.

• 50:28Speaker 03

  And me, host Brenda. We've already tackled mysteries such as what happened to the puppets from Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer? Is Snoopy Mexican? And why do people hate Barney so much?

• 50:38Speaker 06

  From theme parks to cartoons to 80s, 90s, and 2000s nostalgia, we tackle it all.

• 50:43Speaker 03

  Check us out every Tuesday on MaximumFun.org and wherever you get podcasts.

• 50:49Jason Schreier?

  And we are back, Kirk, Matty, it is time for one more thing. Matty, why don't you go first?

• 50:54Speaker 00

  Sure. So I played a video game called Peak, which I'm gonna have to spell because it's a homonym. It's P E A K because it's

• 51:03Jason Schreier?

  It's Blueprint.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Kind of, yeah. It's a multiplayer mountain climbing game, or at least I played it multiplayer. You can play it single player. Uh, this was, this was our gamer night last Thursday night. You can play with up to four players, so we all played together. And it is a comedy slapstick mountain climbing game that I strongly recommend. We laughed the whole time. It was very good. There's some extremely fun physics simulation in this game. So you play as just like this randomly generated, super purposefully cute little mountain climber. And you're like super bright primary colors and have a little Girl Scout outfit on and a little hat.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  And it's just, you can kinda like change how your character looks, but you pretty much always look adorable. No matter what. And also the game has proximity based voice chat. So I'd recommend like turning off the Discord voice chat if you're using that like we do and use the in-game voice chat. It's actually really good and it forces you to stay together when you're climbing the mountain, which you must do, just like in real life, because you can die in this game very easily. And it's very funny, but you obviously don't want to die because it's a video game. And ideally you make it to the top with all three of your friends intact. And so when you start climbing too far ahead of somebody, your friend's voice is going to get further and further away. And you're not going to be able to hear them anymore. And eventually you really can't hear them and you have to find them.

• 52:31Speaker 00

  So you can get lost in the mountain. And also the mountain is procedurally generated every time as well. So we played on the easiest setting and I thought it was still really hard. I'm sure it gets way harder, but the mountain is always still climbable, or at least on the easiest setting it is. I don't, I don't know how the harder settings go or if it becomes impossible at some point. There's a few really fun mechanics. There's the obvious one. Where you can offer your hand out to like, help another player. Basically, the whole thing revolves around like, the stamina bar. So think like Breath of the Wild or Tears of the Kingdom. You're climbing the mountain. Obviously, you're going to run out of stamina. But if your friend is ahead of you and they've made it to the top, because maybe they just had an extra energy drink in their pocket. They have, you know, just like Link would have,

• 53:16Speaker 00

  some food on them that helped them get further than you.

• 53:19Kirk Hamilton?

  Right.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  They can reach out.

• 53:20Kirk Hamilton?

  Cork down some rice balls.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  Well, you can't do that, but you can reach down your hand. And if you're in just enough proximity to your friend's hand, you can grab it and they'll pull you the rest of the way up, which is just adorable. And also, you can find like, a rope on the mountain. Like, there's just, you'll see random abandoned suitcases, like, as though climbers have just died somewhere. I don't know. There's sort of like, a funny implication there.

• 53:43Kirk Hamilton?

  Hey, man, watch an Iger documentary. That shit happens.

• 53:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. So you just like, find ropes around and you just have to pick those up. And, and you can only carry so many items. I mean, I don't know. It's really fun. It's a super fun design for a game.

• 53:56Kirk Hamilton?

  That sounds awesome. That sounds like a blast.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  It's so great. I really recommend it.

• 54:00Kirk Hamilton?

  I can see why it's so popular, just from your description.

• 54:02Jason Schreier?

  Yeah. Because it's fun to watch and it's fun to play, you know?

• 54:05Speaker 00

  It's so fun to watch, too. It's, it's really fun to watch. It's, it's just legit fun to play. And I will also say, even when you die, it's really fun, because you become a ghost and you can automatically choose, like, which player to haunt. And you'll just be a little ghosty over their shoulder. But you also have the ability to like, kind of fly around a little bit near them. So you can be like, okay, there's actually like, a pretty good place to climb over there. So you can just start backseat driving somebody after you've died, which is hilarious and kind of irritating. So it's, it's fun. And then when you get to the top, you can resurrect everybody if you want to. Or you can choose not to do that if you want to screw with them. So, yeah. It's called Peak, P-E-A-K. Really fun time if you've got a group of friends to play with. I recommend it.

• 54:46Kirk Hamilton?

  Nice. Sounds awesome. Kirk, what's your one more thing? My one more thing is a TV show called Star Trek: Lower Decks that Emily and I have finally started watching after being recommended the show by many of our Trekkie friends over the years. We just kind of put it off and started it, and it's so great. What a great show. Have either of you watched this? Jason, you're not really a Trekkie. Maddie, have you?

• 55:09Speaker 00

  I haven't. I keep meaning to, though. I really feel like I would.

• 55:12Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, so I was in a similar boat. I kind of said, I, you know, I know this is good. I should watch it. And we kind of did it. And then there just hasn't been a lot to watch, and we really like Star Trek. We're finally finishing TNG after we watched up through midway through season seven and then just kind of were like, I don't want it to end, because I've never seen the whole thing.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  Well, there's also like hundreds of episodes. That's like...

• 55:33Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, it's a, right, very, seven season old, 20, 20 episode per season show. So, this is an animated show created by Mike McMahon, who is a longtime writer on Rick and Morty, which explains a lot about it, mostly why it's so funny. His writing sensibility is a perfect fit to this kind of a show. It's a Star Trek show about the USS Cerritos. It takes place after TNG. It's a little later. I think it's around Voyager in the sort of Star Trek timeline, or maybe a little bit after that. But it's a slightly later one. There's a lot of these Star Trek shows now are taking place back during the original series, like Strange New Worlds, which has been my one more thing, a show that I really

• 56:15Kirk Hamilton?

  liked at first, that's fallen off a bit for me, but it's still plenty enjoyable. But that takes place kind of around that time of the original Enterprise and Kirk and Spock and all of that. So this is much later. And as a result, the show is kind of a parody slash almost fan show at times, but in a way that's very clever. It's very much designed for Trekkies. There are jokes that would only make sense if you've watched Star Trek, and particularly The Next Generation, because that's my main frame of reference. I haven't watched Voyager. I haven't really watched the original series, or, you know, Deep Space Nine or any of those other shows. But I still get a lot of the jokes, and especially the best ones. So it's, it's a lot of it is TNG, but they reference everything. There are...

• 56:59Kirk Hamilton?

  All kinds of Voyager jokes, for example, that I don't really get that Emily gets. But it is a really self-referential animated show. It tells the story of four main characters and then a whole, you know, pretty much the whole crew of the ship. But the four main characters are lower decks ensigns. So the idea is, most Star Trek shows, of course, are about the bridge crew. The captain and the number one and, you know, whatever, like the head of security. The, the characters you all know from TNG and they're up there on the bridge and they're making the big decisions and going on adventures. This is like, what if we told a story about the people who just clean up afterwards? You know, who have to mop the outside of the ship when it's all covered in guts from the huge alien that they fought? Which is a fun concept, though the show isn't totally true to it because the bridge crew are all main characters as well.

• 57:44Kirk Hamilton?

  And they're regularly in it. The, the main, the main lower decker, Beckett Mariner, her mom is the captain of the ship. So there's like a lot of interplay between them. So it focuses on them, but it isn't quite that high concept thing. It's just really funny, though. Jack Quaid plays Brad Boimler, who is maybe the best known actor on it. Jack Quaid, of course, from The Boys and a ton of other things. You'd know him if you saw him. And he and Mariner, who's played by Tony Newsome, are just really, really funny. The animation is hilarious. It's just a, a kind of more adult show than Star Trek is at times. Often the episodes will be like TV 14 for sexual content and violence.

• 58:24Kirk Hamilton?

  Because like people are getting blown up and having sex and it's like kind of bawdy and silly in a way that Star Trek actually rarely is. And I, I find that very appealing. And also it's really episodic. The episodes are half an hour long and they always go on some new adventure. They're always on some new planet because it's animated. They could have really crazy alien species that they're meeting that would be much harder to depict in real life, you know, in, in live action. But they, they get to like, do it because it's animated. And so it feels more like a Rick and Morty or like that kind of sort of wacky, silly, silly adventure. And I really just like it. I mean, we crack up at every episode. It's so funny. We're up to the second season. There are five seasons. I haven't really quite seen a show like this in the other kind of.

• 59:09Kirk Hamilton?

  Corresponding big franchises like Star Wars, definitely not. There's never really been an actual sanctioned canon, or at least kind of canon adjacent comedy show in Star Wars. The closest thing I would that I could think of was Robot Chicken, which isn't actually official, but it but Robot Chicken, it feels kind of like Robot Chicken sometimes.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  They got permission to use those characters though.

• 59:31Jason Schreier?

  I was gonna say, there was this huge Family Guy like version of all three movies. I don't remember if they got permission, but I mean, it was all Star Wars, so.

• 59:40Kirk Hamilton?

  Right, it was, I think it almost must have, and that parody.

• 59:43Jason Schreier?

  Spaceballs, does Spaceballs count?

• 59:45Kirk Hamilton?

  Well, right, and it's like, so then you go outside, which is how it used to feel with Star Trek as well, because Galaxy Quest is an amazing movie and a great parody of Star Trek. And then more recently, the Orville, Seth MacFarlane's show, which was a very strange show because it started kind of with a lower decks kind of energy, like it was like a parody. But then it gradually just became a Star Trek show because Seth MacFarlane, I think, always wanted to be on Star Trek and they just, it just, it stopped being, I mean, it's a little funny, but it stopped being a comedy and just became kind of an actual Star Trek show, which was just an odd trajectory. So anyways, I don't know, it's at a really cool frequency. There's five seasons of it. It's very easy to watch and very funny. So if anyone out there is like I used to be or Matty, it sounds like you are, you've had it recommended, you know what's out there, you've thought about it, but you haven't watched it,

• 1:00:30Kirk Hamilton?

  just go for it. It's, it's a super funny show and we're really loving it.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  I will, I'll watch it.

• 1:00:35Jason Schreier?

  Well, speaking of self referential animated shows.

• 1:00:40Kirk Hamilton?

  On Paramount, that's true.

• 1:00:43Jason Schreier?

  My one more thing is South Park, which is a show that I've had a very interesting relationship with over the years. I grew up with it and I've always had a soft spot in my heart for it. The song, It's Hard to Be a Jew on Christmas, so he struck a chord with me when I was 12 years old or 11, whenever it was that it came out. And over the years, I've always, I've watched it pretty religiously, stopped probably a few years ago, but also have kind of been cognizant of the fact that it's kind of nihilism. It's approach to like hating everybody or like both sides are bad, like douchebag versus turd sandwich of the 2004 election, that sort of stuff, led to a lot of the conditions that created our current political climate, or at least I wouldn't say led, but like.

• 1:01:27Jason Schreier?

  Could be an inspiration for, or perhaps a factor. And you can look at a lot of the kind of like, I don't know, disenfranchised young men who just kind of like were big supporters of Trump or MAGA or whatever and kind of connect the dots a little bit between them and South Park. So it is absolutely fascinating that in 2025, South Park is the only show that is willing to take on our potentially fascist administration. Boy, did they. A little bit of, a little bit of. Good lord. Little bit of table setting here, which is that for a year or so now Paramount has been trying to merge with David Ellison's Skydance.

• 1:02:12Jason Schreier?

  And that was going through some hurdles. There was a question of whether Trump's FCC would actually approve it. And one of the things that happened was that CBS, which is owned by Paramount, settled this lawsuit that Trump had filed against them for quote unquote, deceptively editing a Kamala Harris interview. Last year, it was a meritless lawsuit. I think anybody who looked at it knew that. And a lot of people saw that settlement as just like a straight up bribe to the president in order to make sure he would allow this merger to go through. That combined with the recent cancellation of the Colbert Late Night Show, which I think is a little more complicated than just kind of a pure political thing because late night shows are so relevant and losing so much money these days.

• 1:02:56Jason Schreier?

  I think I heard somewhere, I think it might've been on the Town podcast, that the Colbert show was losing $40 million a year. So a little bit more complicated than just him getting canceled because of political stuff. But still, it painted a picture of a Paramount that is cowering to a president who is very transactional and wants everybody to see things his way or else he will punish them.

• 1:03:19Kirk Hamilton?

  Also, Bill Owens leaving 60 Minutes, worth mentioning. That was a pretty big deal.

• 1:03:22Jason Schreier?

  Right, yes. Also, also a big part of that whole equation. And then, at the same time, the South Park guys were like publicly trashing Paramount because they were in the midst of this negotiation that was getting derailed. And then on Sunday of last week, or Monday of last week, they announced that they had signed this massive deal, one and a half billion dollars to produce five more seasons of South Park, 15 more episodes of South Park. Then on Wednesday, they came out with their first episode of the season, and it was truly something. They, in the past, they had been trying to do Trump through Mr. Garrison, the character on South Park, by having him like paint his face orange and have his hair all poofed up. And he would like do these silly things. And it would be kind of, he was a little

• 1:04:05Jason Schreier?

  bit of a sympathetic character. So it wasn't just kind of like trashing Trump, but he was also awful in a lot of ways. And they were kind of satirizing Trump through him. But in this episode, for the first time, they actually put Trump on the show. And what they did was to give him the Saddam Hussein treatment from the early 2000s and the South Park movie, to the point where like, like they have his face, his actual face on screen as like a little guy whose head flops up and down.

• 1:04:32Kirk Hamilton?

  Like a Canadian.

• 1:04:33Jason Schreier?

  Like a Canadian. That's true.

• 1:04:35Kirk Hamilton?

  World of South Park.

• 1:04:35Jason Schreier?

  That is true.

• 1:04:36Kirk Hamilton?

  Canadians' heads work.

• 1:04:37Jason Schreier?

  And also sleeps with Satan and has a micro penis. And they just like went all out, going after him as hard as possible. The episode itself was about how like, the people of South Park were terrified of him. Jesus, the character of Jesus, came in and he was like, like secretly whispering to the people of South Park that they better listen to what Trump says, because he's getting in the middle of getting sued by Trump. And if they don't do what he says, he's gonna sue them. It's worth watching. It is, it is quite, quite something.

• 1:05:04Kirk Hamilton?

  He literally says like, do you guys want to be like Colbert? We'll get, South Park will be canceled.

• 1:05:09Jason Schreier?

  It is, it is really. One of the first things I've seen that actually understands how to make fun of Trump, and then it ends with this PSA that you should watch online, which they call PSA 1 of 50. And it's this AI-generated just Trump, kind of slowly getting naked through the desert. You kind of have to watch it. It can't really be summed up by talking about.

• 1:05:31Kirk Hamilton?

  Can I say that I thought that I watched this episode as well? The actual episode is like, fine, it's funny enough. It feels like a kind of South Park episode. That PSA at the end. Was genuinely hilarious and the fact that they're gonna make 50 more of them is like, I think, very funny.

• 1:05:49Jason Schreier?

  It's incredible.

• 1:05:50Kirk Hamilton?

  Very hard to watch.

• 1:05:51Jason Schreier?

  It's quite funny. I mean, I thought the episode was good because to me, it's like so many people over the years, um, since 2016 have tried to mock Trump in different ways and it's never really that effective because his personality, he's such a kind of, I don't know, his, his personality is designed to be almost parody proof because he is kind of a parody. He's a character already and he embraces that. He is a funny guy. He is like, like objectively funny dude. Yeah. And he knows how to make people laugh. It's very hard to mock him unless you do what South Park just did, which is really one of the first times I've seen that be effective is you just, you just treat him like a, like a piece of garbage and you're just like this, look at this like ridiculous, we're just gonna make fun of the way he looks and the way he tied and just like treat him like he's this dictator and just poke at those

• 1:06:36Jason Schreier?

  weak points that he does have, his like, his insecurities that we can reach instead of the like, oh, look at the Mr. Orange, Donald Trump, we're really got him this time. It feels like for the first time they actually identified his weaknesses and went after them.

• 1:06:50Kirk Hamilton?

  I think that it's, the comedy of it is just kind of fascinating. Part of it is that they don't do a Trump impression, which is a mistake I think that a lot of people fall into in trying to mock him. Saturday Night Live certainly had this problem where for so many years, they'd bring out Alec Baldwin to do a Trump impression, but it just still feels like you're kind of doing the Trump thing, like you're experiencing Trump a little bit. All these people on social media who can do the voice and all his little cadences, he's such a character. Like you said, he's so caricatured. He caricatures himself that when you start doing the impression, you're almost just playing on his turf. Like it's impossible at that point to do what you need to do as a satirist. And South Park was like,

• 1:07:31Kirk Hamilton?

  no, he's just gonna talk like this totally crazy little guy and he's not gonna speak in Trumpisms or use his cadences. He's just gonna be this psycho. And like, that will actually, that actually cuts a lot harder and is funnier. I think that that's a really smart insight that they had.

• 1:07:48Jason Schreier?

  They threw in some Jeffrey Epstein stuff, how he keeps telling people to relax every time they bring up Jeffrey Epstein.

• 1:07:53Kirk Hamilton?

  That way, they can be so current because they produce the shows so fast, which they've always been very good.

• 1:07:57Jason Schreier?

  It's very good. And I really, the bigger story here, story here, which I just think is so fascinating is that these dudes, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, who, again, I have had, they've been my problematic faves, let's say, for decades. I've loved their work in so many different ways, even while recognizing that it's got some issues. These are the people who, like, 20 years ago, did an episode of South Park about Al Gore chasing an imaginary creature as an allegory for climate change. Granted, they, they kind of took that back more recently and like, did an episode that was sort of a mea culpa to that. But still, this is like a, a show that has really, like, done some damage, like, for, in a lot of different ways. Yet now, in our current time, these guys are also the only people with enough money,

• 1:08:41Jason Schreier?

  enough clout, enough of a platform to be able to successfully take on fascism in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of other shows and a lot of other networks that we're seeing are just too scared to call out Trump. News organizations are terrified, comedy shows are terrified, they might wind up like Colbert. And here is South Park, which I think is like, kind of a last bastion in a lot of ways. And who would have thought, who would have thought it would be South Park after all that? But I guess when you're just kind of the grenade-throwing show, you have to keep throwing grenades and not give a shit. Like, one of the reasons they've been so successful is because they've never really cared about, like, getting canceled in, in multiple ways, both literally and figuratively. And they've never, they've always been willing to just, like, punch anything they see.

• 1:09:26Jason Schreier?

  And in this case, they're the only ones who are really going, going as far as to do it.

• 1:09:31Kirk Hamilton?

  Something funny I read in The New Yorker, Tyler Fogut wrote up this episode, and opens talking about a legal strategy known as the small penis rule. Known as the small penis rule, where an author who writes a character based on a real person can potentially evade a libel suit by giving said character a small penis. The logic being that in order to sue, the plaintiff would have to tacitly admit that the description of his manhood is accurate, which is very funny. And, you know, they go on to say, oh, I'm not sure if that's actually what they were going for here. But by giving Trump a micro penis- That could well be the strategy, which I just thought was a very funny observation.

• 1:10:06Jason Schreier?

  I mean, Matt and Trey, I bet, would love for Donald Trump to see like, could imagine the the platform. Like, imagine the the headlines. It would just be incredible. Anyway. It's quite a thing, and they've already like hinted that they're gonna keep doing this. I mean, they said that PSA video was one of 50, and also they've teased that next week's episode is gonna feature Trump too, so.

• 1:10:26Kirk Hamilton?

  It is the first time so many people are talking about South Park in forever.

• 1:10:29Jason Schreier?

  It's true.

• 1:10:29Kirk Hamilton?

  Like, it's definitely a show that has waned in relevance. I don't haven't watched it forever, and yet I watched South Park like for the first time in so long, just because everyone was talking about it. I was like, well, I want to see what this was, and I was glad I watched.

• 1:10:39Jason Schreier?

  They've had a lot of misses recently. They did this whole plot with like weed farming that was just so boring. But they'd had one good episode last year or two years ago, whenever it was, that was about ChatGPT and all the kids using ChatGPT. And then like half the episode was written by ChatGPT. They did some funny playing around with that.

• 1:10:56Kirk Hamilton?

  There's a scene in this episode where Randy's talking to ChatGPT that was quite funny. Where it's like replaced his wife.

• 1:11:02Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, they do have their finger on the pulse of like what kids are actually doing and like what. They're good at tapping into culture sometimes. It's just like they've had a lot of misses in recent years. And yeah, it's South Park. Who'd have thought? All right, that is that for this week's episode. Next week, we will be back talking about Zelda: Ocarina of Time. So if you would like to follow along, play along with us. We'll be going, as Matty said, to the Temple of Time. So grab your 3DS and get in there.

• 1:11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, grab your Ocarina.

• 1:11:34Kirk Hamilton?

  Grab your chickens and throw them into the pen.

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, or what Kirk said, and then get ready to do it again if you want to get a purple rupee or whatever. Play the game and you'll learn what I'm talking about. That's it. That's it for this week.

• 1:11:46Jason Schreier?

  That is it for this week. Kirk, Matty, see you both next week.

• 1:11:50Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, see you both next week.

• 1:11:51Speaker 00

  Bye.

• 1:11:54Kirk Hamilton?

  Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddy Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximumfun.org/join. Find us on Twitter at TripleClickPod, send email to [email protected], and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

• 1:12:52Jason Schreier?

  Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network. Of artist-owned shows. Supported. Directly. By you.