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Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with Beatriz Villarroel to discuss the Baltic Sea anomaly, vanishing stars, hunting for UFO crash retrievals and the lack of scientific inquiry into such UAPs. Villarroel expresses skepticism about government transparency in UAP research and highlights her project, Project Vasco, which systematically analyzes data for signs of artificial non-human objects.
Beatriz's Website ➤ http://beatrizvillarroel.com
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Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
01:28 Meeting Dr. Beatriz Villarroel
02:52 Journey to Astronomy
05:01 Halton Arp's Influence
06:36 Diving into UAP
07:52 The Baltic Sea Anomaly
09:25 The Search for Vanishing Stars
14:16 Historical Context of UFOs
18:11 The Villainous Legacy of Don Menzel
20:47 Contrasting Views on UFOs
26:11 JFK, UFOs, and Secrecy
27:52 Exoprobe: The Future of Exploration
33:08 Defining UAP and UFO
37:08 Challenges in the Scientific Community
40:23 The Pursuit of Truth
43:14 European Crash Retrieval Initiative
46:34 The Quest for Proof
51:51 Supporting the Search for Answers
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:00 Speaker 02 There's something that looks like it has been sliding into the ocean. So they found this thing that looked like a crashed UFO or looked like an artificial structure outside the Swedish coast. They found that it was covered in burned biological material, which is really weird because we don't have volcanic activity in that area. We need the actual physical proof. And I don't think any government is willing to release that. But the scientists who had claimed it was just a rock never studied the actual samples. And there is no paper and no open data. There's just a claim to the media by those scientists. And I'm just like, this is not a way of analyzing something.
1:38 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:39 Speaker 02 So there are no samples of that object because it was so hard, so they couldn't get a piece out of it. So I still think it's something that should be analyzed because it might be possibly the best candidate and non-human artifact that you can find.
1:55 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:56 Speaker 02 And I really believe that we need to seriously study this kind of objects.
2:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely.
2:29 Jesse Michels? I'm here with Dr. Beatrice Viorial, who is a phenomenal astronomer, both in a conventional sense, she's conventionally trained, but also I think you are a rare, kind of very open mind in your field, and you've found some very interesting things. And so I'm really excited to speak with you because you're kind of on the frontier. You're the intersection, I think, between scientific rigor and this burgeoning field of studying anomalous phenomena in the air and in space. And so thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.
3:01 Speaker 02 It's my pleasure and it's a true honor.
3:03 Jesse Michels? Oh, well, thank you. How did you get into space to begin with? Were you always into space as a kid?
3:10 Speaker 02 Actually, not. So as a kid, I was a very, very curious person. Well, I am still a very curious person. But of course, I was very interested in space. So I was very curious about a lot of things. And I think already when I was six or seven, I had written a small little essay about cats in flying saucers. I still like cats as well.
3:33 Jesse Michels? When you were six or seven, you wrote an essay?
3:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, I had that essay. I don't remember how long it was. I had also painted the cats on the flying saucers there. So I don't think it changed too much.
3:43 Jesse Michels? Oh, my God. That's unbelievable.
3:45 Speaker 02 Anyway, I simply liked probably this topic already since I was very young. I got interested in molecular biology and DNA. And I actually started my university studies with an engineering program in molecular biotechnology. And then I got super bored.
4:05 Jesse Michels? How did you get bored of molecular biotechnology?
4:09 Speaker 02 Well, it's like we were all the time. I think it was the particular program I was studying at at the university. We were all the time repeating the central dogma. And how DNA turns into a protein over and over. And I just started wondering about the mysteries of the universe. Galaxies, how are galaxies gaining the shapes that we see? The spiral form versus elliptical forms? I wanted to understand all that. Well, I found myself on a PhD program in astronomy. And I started studying active galactic nuclei, which are galaxies that have lots of light coming from their center. And I tried to see how different types of active galactic nuclei. And you could see these different types by looking at the spectra.
4:54 Speaker 02 Some had broad emission lines, some had narrow. And how are they related? And I did my PhD on that topic. However, already like in my early years as a PhD student. Was it even maybe in my last year as undergraduate student? I had, while writing some fable, I had started wondering about if a star could vanish or even galaxy could vanish.
5:20 Jesse Michels? What do you think sparked that question of could a galaxy vanish?
5:24 Speaker 02 Well, I think I was so influenced and fascinated by Halton-Arpe, Halton-Arpe's theories. So Halton-Arpe was an astronomer who was a super famous astronomer for a very long while. Who one day observed, he could see like, he found couples of galaxies that were, they looked like they were exchanging gas. But if you looked at their redshifts, which are indicators of distance, they had completely different redshift. Which completely went against all the idea of the expanding universe and how we interpret redshift. So when he said this, all astronomers attacked him. So it was, it was the controversy of what we have today with Avi Loeb and Oumuamua.
6:07 Speaker 02 And in the eighties with the non-cosmological redshift or anomalous redshifts, as we call them. Yeah, so I was fascinated by that thing and I wrote an essay based on these ideas. And then somehow I killed off my poor quasar because it was a fable. And it vanished in, at the end of the story. And I started wondering, but hey, has anyone ever searched for galaxies or stars that vanish?
6:30 Jesse Michels? Interesting. And so can you explain what a non-cosmological redshift is?
6:35 Speaker 02 So it would be, so usually when we.
6:39 Speaker 02 Um. Look at galaxies, we can see the redshift that and it's a Doppler shift because the universe is expanding and it's moving away from us. So
6:49 Jesse Michels? So it's stretching light and you're moving uh lower down on the electromagnetic wave spectrum towards
6:56 Speaker 02 Exactly. So
6:57 Jesse Michels? Lower nanometer range.
6:58 Speaker 02 Exactly. So what then happens is that um people use this uh redshift to calculate the distance through galaxy. Now, the problem would be if you have two interacting galaxies that are completely different redshift, you wouldn't be able to um use that as a distance estimator. So I was just curious about that.
7:19 Jesse Michels? Why do you think it was so controversial?
7:21 Speaker 02 Well, because that would uh question the entire big bang idea.
7:25 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
7:26 Speaker 02 So it would it would completely change all fundamentals of uh physics as we know today or cosmology, rather.
7:33 Jesse Michels? So the verdict on redshifts is still out, but you've moved on. And you might you might you might come back at some point.
7:39 Speaker 02 When I get really bored.
7:41 Jesse Michels? So how did you get into, because I I know you through my own interest in, you know, U A P, uh unidentified anomalous phenomena. How did you get into even believing that that was possible?
7:55 Speaker 02 So so I'm going to show you some like uh contradictions in how I were thinking uh when I was younger. So as an undergraduate student, um I was in Sweden and I one day heard about this fascinating discovery that a team of divers had done uh called the Baltic Sea anomaly. So they found this thing that looked like a crashed UFO or looked like an artificial structure outside the Swedish coast.
8:20 Jesse Michels? What did it look like?
8:22 Speaker 02 It looked like a millennium falcon that had just uh crashed into the deep seas.
8:27 Jesse Michels? Wow.
8:27 Speaker 02 I was super fascinated and I was like, oh, my God, can there have been aliens coming to visiting on Earth? Later, when I started working with these searches for extraterrestrial intelligence, which we did through the project by looking for vanishing objects.
8:43 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
8:44 Speaker 02 Um. That's
8:46 Speaker 02 That's when I started wondering about the UFO question as well, which I until then didn't want to touch.
8:53 Jesse Michels? And is there any government interest when it comes to this?
8:56 Speaker 02 Well, I don't know about that, but I know that they did super interesting investigations of it. I think they found that it was covered in burned biological material, which is really weird because we don't have volcanic activity in that area. Plus, I don't think they even said it was a crashed UFO. I think their idea is that this is an artificial structure, and they don't know what it is, but some kind of artificial structure. And they also saw there's this kind of, there's something that looks like it has been sliding into the ocean. Sadly, Fox News went out with saying that this is just a rock, but the scientist who had claimed it was just a rock never studied the actual samples.
9:39 Speaker 02 And there's no paper and no open data. There's just a claim to the media by those scientists. And I'm just like, this is not a way of analyzing something.
9:49 Jesse Michels? Wow.
9:50 Speaker 02 So there are no samples of that object because it was so hard, so they couldn't get a piece out of it. So I still think it's something that should be analyzed because it might be possibly the best candidate and non-human artifact that you can find.
10:06 Jesse Michels? Wow.
10:07 Speaker 02 And I really believe that we need to seriously study this kind of objects.
10:16 Jesse Michels? Yeah, absolutely. We should go down there and try to gather resources.
10:20 Speaker 02 I mean, that's amazing. I hope these two guys will get all the support they can to actually study it and research it.
10:26 Jesse Michels? So how does looking at vanishing stars then lead you to an interest in UAP or UFOs?
10:32 Speaker 02 So we were looking for these vanishing stars. And so now the people talk about vanishing stars sometimes in different ways than I talk about them. So we had access to these catalogs, like lots of imagery from 1950, and also a catalog called the US Navy Catalog. And then we had images of the sky as it looks today. And so we were comparing these images from the early 50s to images as it looks today. And I was hoping to see this perfect sparkling star that you can find in multiple images that one day vanishes. But before you find that, you find lots of candidates. And like things that you've seen in the 50s that have vanished,
11:15 Speaker 02 but you don't know if it's a beautiful star or if it's something else. I had this image where you could see multiple stars appearing and vanishing, which is completely crazy. Because one thing to have one transient, but when you have several of them happening in a small space at the same time, you really start wondering. So I started studying this phenomenon. I showed it to my colleagues.
11:39 Speaker 02 And we all started investigating it. We had this guy at Grand Telescope of Canaria, one of my friends, who actually pointed the world's largest optical telescope, a 10.4 meter telescope, to the positions of all these nine objects or eight of them or something like that. And there was nothing left. Because we were hoping to see like, you know, we were really hoping to see some kind of counterpunch there. And you said, oh, maybe there were nine lasers or whatever. There was nothing like that. And I always started wondering, so what can actually cause this thing?
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13:15 Speaker 02 And there's no astrophysical explanation, so we started looking at various kind of instrumental explanations and all of them have.
13:22 Jesse Michels? And this is not a supernova or like, you know, the heat death of the sun type thing turns into a black hole or a dwarf or something?
13:29 Speaker 02 You're not going to get several of them in a small space at the same time.
13:32 Jesse Michels? Wow.
13:33 Speaker 02 So this just didn't match anything.
13:36 Jesse Michels? Just like perfect anomaly, basically. It's not explained by any.
13:39 Speaker 02 Although today you can have that in the sky, because today you have lots of satellites that sometimes are blinking, you have lots of space garbage, and then short reflections just happen due to, I mean, because you have solar reflections.
13:52 Jesse Michels? Sure.
13:53 Speaker 02 The problem is that, that would have, this is from 1950.
13:59 Jesse Michels? We didn't have any of that technology back then. Yeah.
14:02 Speaker 02 So, and that's how I became interested.
14:05 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
14:06 Speaker 02 And I got an idea of that one of the ways how I can also search for more such examples by looking for those that are lying along a line or in a narrow band. So my friend Lars helped me to develop the statistics to properly see how many do we need, at least in a line, in order to, or in a narrow band, in order to say that even if you have this kind of transits, also their positioning is anomalous, that they are kind of not randomly placed, but they are aligned or so. And we had two such examples that were statistically significant. And one is five objects on a narrow band, and it's from the 27th of July,
14:51 Speaker 02 1952. My colleague Enrique found these three stars, the triple transient. And this one is from the 19th of July, 1952, and it's super beautiful. And then my colleague, Dave Altman, who is the manager, media manager for Vasco, he said, do you know what happens or what happened on 19th of July, 1952? No, I wasn't around. So he introduced me to the Washington flap.
15:22 Jesse Michels? That's absolutely amazing. I mean, because in UFO lore, not even lore, this was a national event. It was it was all over the press. It was in, you know, newspapers saying, you know, saucers on the White House lawn. It prompted a call between Truman and Edward J. Ruppelt, who was the head of Blue Book at the time. And it was you had this Washington invasion or DC flyover where there were saucers all over DC at the time. And it was specifically July of 1952, but it was specifically two weekends. It was the 19th and 20th, and it was the 26th and 27th. So I find that absolutely remarkable. So these are naval records that you're looking at to see the stars.
16:03 Speaker 02 We use this naval observatory catalog initially, or I used them initially, but later we just went to the directly to the Mount Palomar images.
16:11 Jesse Michels? Got it. And so you're seeing images, you're seeing this three in a row and then five in a row in your case.
16:17 Speaker 02 The three are just randomly placed and the and the five are along a narrow band.
16:21 Jesse Michels? Okay, got it. And and then they just seemed to vanish. They weren't in the public
16:26 Speaker 02 appear or vanish.
16:28 Jesse Michels? observable data like a year later or even a week later.
16:30 Speaker 02 Exactly like you said.
16:31 Jesse Michels? That's wild. I mean, that's really fascinating. Is there anything that is distinct about them when comparing them to other stars in the images? Or do they look like garden variety stars?
16:43 Speaker 02 They look like garden variety stars. We will. We actually now are re-exploring whether they look identical to the garden variety stars, or if there might be some small tiny difference, because you can expect slight differences if you have short flashes, depending on the shorter they are, the more they might be concentrated.
17:02 Jesse Michels? Interesting. So and have you seen any vanishing stars since 1952? Have you have you combed through the records since then? Or?
17:11 Speaker 02 We have a lot of single transients, but what I actually want to do is to look at more cases of multiple transients. We have we have some more cases when we were looking for these alignments that we just ignored because we were looking for alignments.
17:24 Jesse Michels? Can you describe the methodology of Project Vasco? What exactly are you doing?
17:29 Speaker 02 So we take images from Mount Palomar from the early 50s. And then we look at the same positions in new images from Pan STARS.
17:41 Jesse Michels? And Mount Palomar is an observatory and a telescope in California?
17:45 Speaker 02 Exactly. And then we use these images from Hawaii. And we compare the same spot just 70 years later.
17:52 Jesse Michels? Wow.
17:52 Speaker 02 And see how something vanished. It was actually quite fun. There was an expert in satellites that contacted me when he saw our paper. We were looking for these alignments. And I found these two particularly interesting cases. And he wrote me something like, but come on, you have just found satellites. Haven't you thought about that? And I wrote back, did you look at what year these satellites are from? They're kind of before Sputnik.
18:24 Jesse Michels? Yeah, I think that's kind of hard to argue with.
18:27 Speaker 02 It was quite fun. And you can't imagine how often some astronomers actually make that kind of comment. Like, aren't you just having satellite links?
18:35 Jesse Michels? Do you remember Don Menzel? Do you know that name by any chance?
18:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
18:39 Jesse Michels? Famous astronomer.
18:40 Speaker 02 It's my favorite typical arc villain.
18:44 Jesse Michels? He kind of is, right? It was all like, what was it like temperature inversion? He was a Harvard astronomer. And I think he was also a cryptographer. And kind of deep in the national security state. And he would just write these kind of naysayer debunking books in the 50s. And he would describe all this stuff with, you know, light reflections or, you know, temperature inversions and that sort of thing. But yeah, what are your thoughts on it? Why is he your favorite villain?
19:13 Speaker 02 I mean, I don't think he necessarily is a villain. But there's some very interesting coincidences around his name that really make me wonder.
19:23 Jesse Michels? What are the coincidences?
19:25 Speaker 02 Well, first, I mean, we all know that he was a super famous UFO debunker, if not the most famous UFO debunker.
19:31 Jesse Michels? Absolutely.
19:32 Speaker 02 And he helped the US Air Force to debunk the Washington 1952 flap.
19:38 Jesse Michels? Yep.
19:39 Speaker 02 And two or three months after, he suddenly becomes the director of Harvard Observatory. And he destroys one side of the photographic place. And, and he. Doesn't ask, as I understand from the record, he doesn't ask the astronomers to select the plates. No, he asked his secretary to go and throw away one side of the plates. And there's a woman, Dora Toffleit, that has been telling about this story in her memoirs. And he started revenging on her later too, for, as I understood it, for that she tried to protect some of the plates. He also threw away a number of the logbooks that are keeping the observations and what plates exist.
20:20 Speaker 02 In 1953, Don Menzel also stopped the astronomers at Harvard to carry out their very famous sky survey, where they were monitoring the entire sky since already late 19th century. And he stopped them, and they didn't do this survey between 1953 to 1967 for roughly 15 years. So he also had apparently some more later episodes of plate destruction, I heard.
20:49 Jesse Michels? That is wild.
20:50 Speaker 02 And suddenly you find that his name is famous for the so-called MJ12.
20:55 Jesse Michels? Majestic 12.
20:57 Speaker 02 And you start wondering, of course, I mean, I can't help it, but it's a lot of coincidences because we also see things on these dates from Mount Palomar.
21:06 Jesse Michels? Well, the other fascinating thing about Don Menzel is he went on to run the Bureau of Public Standards, which, you know, they're sort of codifying time zones, but also a lot of astronomical data as well. And so if anybody were to like manage our reality, it would be somebody in that position. And then, I don't know if you know this, this is kind of trippy, but he had an understudy, a PhD at Harvard who studied right under him named Lou Branscombe. Lou Branscombe gave Edward Condon his clearance back, and Edward Condon went on to do a hit job on UFOs with the Condon Committee, which killed Blue Book. So it was literally Menzel's protege giving Condon his clearance so that he could completely
21:47 Jesse Michels? kind of put the kibosh once and for all on UFOs and kind of kill the field. So.
21:52 Speaker 02 He's my favorite arch villain.
21:54 Jesse Michels? Yeah, I think he's, yeah, I think he's an arch villain. I think there's something going on there. And we were talking in the car earlier about Carl Sagan, who I think is such a fascinating figure because, you know, we were saying he, in his early diaries, he would write all about UFOs. He was clearly sort of fascinated by them. It feels like if you read, you know, Pale Blue Dot or watch Contact. He sort of, it seems like this tongue in cheek reference to actual, you know, non-human intelligence or extraterrestrial visitation. But then publicly, he just seems to dogmatically flip on the topic and just become this kind of debunker. Actually, right around the time when J. Allen Hynek kind of goes in the opposite direction. He was running Blue Book, an astronomer, and he says, you know, actually, I played a part in the cover up.
22:37 Jesse Michels? And so it's interesting that, um, yeah, Carl Sagan, there seems to be this kind of split between his private life and beliefs and, and public life on UFOs.
22:47 Speaker 02 So do you know that Alan Hynek worked under Menzel at Harvard? So there was this project called Operation Moonwatch, held by Fred Whipple.
22:57 Jesse Michels? Yep.
22:57 Speaker 02 So Fred Whipple was the PhD student of Donald Menzel. And so he created this program where they had this station, like they were, uh, they had 12 stations around the earth with a lot of citizen scientists that were tracking satellites over the sky. And so Alan Hynek was helping Whipple in this program. And they actually had 36 UFO reports that I think Jacques Vallée found that we now like also look through. There are some very interesting things there. So astronomers and amateur astronomers have been seeing UFOs forever. It's just has been ignored.
23:35 Jesse Michels? Do you know who's running the Harvard Undersea Observatory at the time?
23:38 Speaker 02 Galileo Project?
23:39 Jesse Michels? A guy, currently maybe, but the guy at the time was Robert Sarbacher. You know those moments in the middle of the day when you feel your energy dipping and you just need something to help you reset? That's when I grab my greens and it's become my favorite way to recharge. Greens is a refreshingly delicious blend of 14 essential greens, adaptogens, antioxidants, and even mushrooms. It's packed with everything your body needs to fill key nutrient gaps and keep you feeling your best without relying on coffee or sugary snacks. I personally love the strawberry kiwi flavor. It's tangy, slightly sweet, and way better than any other green powder I've tried before. Plus, it's so easy to make. I just mix a scoop with water during that midday slump,
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26:36 Jesse Michels? Act of 1954, and was very close confidant with Thomas Townsend Brown, who's working on anomalous gravity research. And so, seems like Harvard was the epicenter of a lot of this interesting work.
26:47 Speaker 02 It seems so fascinating to have been at Harvard in the 1950s. And actually, the same time as Menzel was there, JFK was on the board of overseers for the astronomy department.
27:00 Jesse Michels? I didn't know that.
27:01 Speaker 02 I found that in Stanton Friedman's notes, so I'm fascinated.
27:06 Jesse Michels? That's amazing. Yeah, I've always wondered how much, do you think JFK was maybe privy to the UFO? Because there's this letter.
27:14 Speaker 02 I don't know anything about JFK. All this is outside my speciality. I'm now wildly speculating, freely speculating.
27:22 Jesse Michels? That's what we do on my show. But there's a letter that was FOIA'd. You know, the Freedom of Information Act was used to request it out of the government in 2005. And it was from JFK to Acting Director of the CIA, John McConne. It was after JFK had fired Allen Dulles. And he's asking for data on unknowns because he's worried that the Russians, the Soviets, might view it as a threat if they see the unknowns in their airspace. And I would think it was fake, but it really dovetails with the language that was used in the 1971 SALT talks, where on record, we're saying that we have to coordinate with
28:03 Jesse Michels? the Soviets on unknowns in their airspace and our airspace, especially around sensitive military installations, so that these things don't provoke war. And if you're thinking about détente, that's obviously a really important vector to kind of think about. And so I always ask myself, you know, this guy John Greenwald, blackvault.com, has done a lot of work on this, and he's looked into the veracity of this document. And the verdict's still out. It's unclear, and I think there are a lot of reasons to think it might not be real, but it's interesting. Because there were some people in and around the JFK assassination that think that maybe that, you know, it had something to do with his inquiries into UFOs. I don't know.
28:45 Speaker 02 There's a lot of fascinating questions to explore for sure.
28:48 Jesse Michels? But that's really interesting. I didn't know he was, I mean, I know he was Harvard affiliated. I had no idea he was at all involved in anything they were doing in the world of astronomy. That's really fascinating and cool. What is the current, so you did Project Vasco and now you're on to a new project to get more of a smoking gun, possibly around these anomalous objects. Can you describe what that project is?
29:10 Speaker 02 So we still have Vasco running and we are going to be looking for more signatures of satellites with the Vasco project. And like hopefully also make a new citizen science project where we look for these signatures.
29:22 Jesse Michels? Was that the extent of the vanishing stars, just the 1952, or you found a lot of vanishing?
29:28 Speaker 02 Well, we found a lot of transient things that appear and vanish.
29:31 Jesse Michels? Okay. Okay. So what exactly do you hope to do with ExoProbe?
29:35 Speaker 02 If you remember with the Vasco project, when we saw these multiple transients, there were no satellites in the sky. Today there's loads and loads of space debris. So now what we want to do is that we want to look for this kind of signatures of non-human artifacts in orbit around the earth, outside the earth's atmosphere. But we also want to remove all this contamination from human space debris directly when we do our observations so that we get clean data. So to do that, we have first, we have a method that I cannot discuss how we are removing all this space debris. But more importantly, or equally importantly, is that we are hoping to build a network of telescopes.
30:20 Speaker 02 And by having multiple telescopes, you can determine the distance to an object. And the more telescopes you have, the more accurately you can actually determine this distance in three dimensions. So that you can actually. Eventually go there, pick up the object and bring it down to the earth. Because that's what I would like to do, to bring down an actual ET probe. So that's what Exoprobe is about. It's about validating a finding, verifying it, localizing the object and characterizing the nature of it. Since the 1960s, we have developed new way of imaging the skies, new technology for imaging the skies.
31:01 Speaker 02 We don't use photo emulsions anymore like was done in the 50s.
31:08 Speaker 02 Our cameras are much more sensitive. We have also artificial intelligence that can analyze a huge amount of data. We can, we have, we can now digitize the entire sky. That wasn't possible in the 60s. All that was impossible for them that time or extremely difficult. And today you have all the methods you need to look for probes. So now, since Radioceti has failed,
31:37 Speaker 02 why not going back to the second best idea of those times? Which is looking for artifacts and probes from advanced civilizations. And I think that's the route we have to take. And we, I also believe that instead of looking for anomalies blindly, we should look specifically for artificial non-human objects.
31:58 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
31:58 Speaker 02 That's how I'm thinking. I think it's a error to do UFO projects too open, where you look for anything that doesn't match, whatever is natural or earthly. I think we need to be much more concrete with what we are looking for. If we're thinking of metallic orbs, you design a project designed for looking for metallic orbs.
32:21 Jesse Michels? That makes so much sense. We were talking earlier and there are certain projects out there that kind of just use generic. You know, a lot of sensor modality, kind of constant observation and then just the exclusion principle. And it's like, okay, there are all these objects we do recognize. What lies outside of the scope of what we recognize? And you presented this really interesting kind of model, which updated me where it was like, no, you actually need a hypothesis going in. That's actually really good. That's good science. Having an idea of what you're looking for and then whatever signatures you'd expect to see from that thing and actually looking for that precisely. And so I guess the question for you would be, in the case of UAP or UFO, do you have
33:03 Jesse Michels? specific signatures you might be looking for?
33:07 Speaker 02 Yes, we are looking for either solar reflections that can be short or it can be streaking, or we look for emissions from artificial objects. We simply want to look for these very distinct signatures. And like, one discussion I have in a new manuscript that we put out is that I don't like the definition of UAP because it fits almost everything now.
33:32 Jesse Michels? Yes.
33:33 Speaker 02 It's so broad.
33:34 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
33:35 Speaker 02 And in that way.
33:36 Jesse Michels? UFO is more limited object.
33:37 Speaker 02 Yes, but even better is flying saucer. Because when you have flying saucer, you directly can see the flying saucer in your head. But when you can see it in your imagination, you can imagine how it would look in your data.
33:51 Jesse Michels? Right.
33:52 Speaker 02 That you can directly transfer it to an image in your mind makes it possible to design a scientific experiment that is very clearly looking for these flying saucers. Now, I'm not saying that you should only look for flying saucers because we know about the metallic orbs and all these other possible signatures we can look for. But having it so concrete makes it possible to also not only imagine the experiment, but also imagine all the ways how it could fail.
34:21 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
34:22 Speaker 02 And all the limitations of your design while when people work with exclusion principle and look for everything. That doesn't fit every, I mean, that doesn't fit the earthly or the natural. You have so many things you have to test. You can always go on forever and say, and what will you actually prove from that?
34:43 Jesse Michels? You just prove that there's a bunch of stuff outside of what you'd expect. But you're sort of, you know, using process of elimination forever.
34:50 Speaker 02 Exactly. So it's, it's a barely falsifiable, falsifiable hypothesis. Uh, while if you have the flying sorcerer, it's a very concrete hypothesis. So I think, uh, my feeling is that more science projects have to be working with very concrete hypothesis around, uh, the UFO question.
35:10 Jesse Michels? What are you, what, so when you say you're looking for like light reflections and light emissions, is that specifically like, uh, you know, in a, in a specific light wavelength? Or is it, is it other possible signatures or is it, it's just light?
35:25 Speaker 02 Well, you can look all over the electromagnetic spectrum.
35:28 Jesse Michels? Mm hmm.
35:28 Speaker 02 Um, I'm going to start in the optical, but I think the infrared, um, might be very, very interesting.
35:35 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
35:36 Speaker 02 I've heard a lot of, uh, people commenting on that there are many more UFOs in the infrared.
35:41 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
35:42 Speaker 02 However, I'm a little bit skeptical because, um, our eyes are trained with the optical.
35:49 Jesse Michels? Mm hmm.
35:50 Speaker 02 I mean, we are all the time, um, judging an object, what it is based on optical light. When people look at infrared imagery, they don't have that same experience.
36:01 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
36:01 Speaker 02 So I think it's much easier to find a UFO simply by the lack of experience. It doesn't mean that they are
36:08 Jesse Michels? Definitely UFOs.
36:09 Speaker 02 More visible in the, in the infrared. It could just mean that we are worse at identifying objects in the infrared.
36:15 Jesse Michels? Hmm. So you think like, cause one example would be, you're familiar with the Nimitz case in two thousand and four, the Tic Tac. So that was detected right when a forward looking infrared new system from Raytheon was installed on the Nimitz carrier strike group, you know, system or whatever. And so people hypothesized that that aperture allowed them to see the UFO. And if UFOs are moving like we think they might move, you'd expect light stretching or light crunching. And so in the light stretching case, you'd get, you know, red shifts and you'd get, you know, infrared would be probably better. And then in the light crunching case, if it was moving towards you, you'd see UV. And so, you know, may, maybe these are good detection methods.
36:59 Speaker 02 I guess we will discover. We will discover. We have to do more infrared surveys and simply search for UFOs in it or search for flying saucers in it, like I rather suggest. I think there has been also certain misdirection when people try to answer the question, what are UFOs? Because you have all these UFO reporting groups that spend lots of time trying to say, what are UFOs? And they say, oh, no, you know, 3% of the time it's birds and 10% of the time is insects. And you know, they go on. I think it's an irrelevant question. Hmm. The only question that should matter is like,
37:43 Speaker 02 are those that would push the edge of science, which is, for example, are there non-human intelligence Yes. on our planet? That's the relevant question to answer, not what are UFOs? And what is all falling into that category? Yes. So if you say, is there some non-human technology that we see available? That's a relevant question. The relevant question is, of course, also if UFOs have some kind of medical effect on people. Yes. Or are they posing a hazard to pilots or to people on the sea? Yeah. These are relevant questions. But just the question, what are UFO?
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39:26 Speaker 02 It's too broad.
39:27 Jesse Michels? Yeah. Have you ever experienced, because you are going out on a limb and even looking into this stuff, you know, it's you, Avi Loeb, a few other astronomers of serious pedigree are even entertaining this. Do you, have you experienced any blowback for what you're doing?
39:46 Speaker 02 Yes, I have. So far, not come in the form of direct complaint on my choice of topic from astronomer colleagues. They have been too busy with attacking me for my choice of collaborator.
40:00 Jesse Michels? And who is that?
40:01 Speaker 02 So in 2021, when we did this discovery of the nine transients, I published a paper with my colleague Jeff Marcy. So he had been cancelled in a sexual harassment scandal in 2015. And but he kept on publishing papers and everything kind of, I mean,
40:25 Speaker 02 even if he retired himself, but he still published papers and collaborated with scientists. Except for that, the same week as we got our paper accepted into the journal, suddenly the National Academy of Sciences decided to kick him out of the National Academy of Sciences. So he was removed from there. And then Science and Nature published papers about it and everyone said, who is still collaborating with Jeff Marcy? And we had the paper already accepted. And I remember someone like calling me and saying, don't make any press release, because otherwise you're going to get seriously attacked.
41:07 Jesse Michels? That's wild. So.
41:09 Speaker 02 So since then, I got kicked out of conferences. They find all kind of ways to like not letting me talk, forgetting my registration. I was had social media attacks.
41:20 Jesse Michels? Wow.
41:20 Speaker 02 I had like very like, I'm going to work with the scientist because he's fantastic, simply. So and I like, I believe in human rights. And that's my thing that I don't understand that people should be like.
41:39 Speaker 02 The idea of that one condemns a person outside of the court.
41:44 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
41:44 Speaker 02 In a, in a public court is for me.
41:46 Jesse Michels? He was never convicted.
41:47 Speaker 02 No, nothing like that. So he was, that is for me goes against the human rights. And the second thing is that even if people do something wrong, they still should have a chance for rehabilitation.
41:58 Jesse Michels? Right.
41:58 Speaker 02 Why is Jeff Mars is suddenly an exception to all human rights? I just could, I, I cannot accept that.
42:05 Jesse Michels? Also, I, I have no idea what he did in twenty fifteen and.
42:10 Speaker 02 I didn't know him back then. I got to know him much later.
42:12 Jesse Michels? So not even commenting on, you know, whatever happened then. The timing, for me, I care about the truth as far as, you know, what people's incentives around, you know, attacking the person. It's like, okay, go after the person when they did it, if, if, if you really care about the thing they did. But to go after it right when you publish your paper about these anomalous objects. That seems to be at least motivated by the anomalous objects and trying to cover that up and not like the initial grievance.
42:41 Speaker 02 I cannot answer that question. There might be, it might have been a coincidence, but it's. Anyway, it happened at the same time, so I have no idea what to answer on this. But I can say that I had a lot of, um, uh, um, a lot of troubles because of my collaboration with Jeff.
43:01 Jesse Michels? I'm sorry.
43:01 Speaker 02 And, uh, but, uh, I will work with him as long as it's productive, as long as it's fun and helps the science. I will keep working with him and I simply am not going to allow some peer pressure to, uh, stop me or force me into, uh, giving up my belief into human rights. And that's something that is important to me.
43:23 Jesse Michels? Good for you. Do you think we are close to finding anything? I mean, do you have like a, an intuitive sense for just the overall dynamic of, you know, finding kind of more of a smoking gun, more evidence around UAP?
43:37 Speaker 02 I think we have to search for more. Uh. We have to um do the best we can with the scientific projects. We have to attack the data from all directions. And we have to ignore all the setbacks. Because I think actually, one of the things that the whole bad episode with all these troubles with the cancel culture taught me is that one has to develop resistance. One has to develop a resistance on peer pressure and critique. And I think it maybe even helped me. Would I, if I wouldn't have that experience, would I dare to work on UFOs today? So, is a question I ask myself. Or did that actually liberate me?
44:20 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
44:20 Speaker 02 In some ways that I say, okay, they're always going to complain.
44:23 Jesse Michels? Yeah. Some of my favorite people have been like unreasonably canceled and it's weirdly freeing. Because they're just like, you, when you get crucified like that, you're just like, ah, whatever. Especially when it's like completely unwarranted and and and unreasonable. Uh, you kind of like let go and just, you know, and then you're really, you're kind of free. You're not bounded by like needing to be liked or validated, which most, most people are.
44:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, so that's, I think that happened to me. I just say, okay, I'm going to do the science I love to do. I love to work on this topic. I don't care if anyone now uh thinks that I'm touching forbidden land or that I'm saying something that I shouldn't be saying. I know some people are uncomfortable with it. I have the European Crash Retrieval Initiative as a hobby project in my free time.
45:11 Jesse Michels? What is that, the European Crash Retrieval Initiative?
45:14 Speaker 02 Well, it's a private citizen driven crash retrieval team.
45:19 Jesse Michels? How do you go looking for crash retrieval?
45:21 Speaker 02 Well, we actually are.
45:22 Jesse Michels? How can I get involved?
45:23 Speaker 02 So, um, so we have a small database run by Vasco where we take in all the tips and ideas, suggestions for possible crash retrievals in Europe. We only stay inside Europe because of the uh, it's easier from a legal point of view to operate.
45:40 Jesse Michels? And are the databases just like collect crowdsourced from people saying like, online, I saw a thing crash? And that, that sort of thing?
45:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, we hope, we have uh gotten lots of suggestions for cold cases. Uh, but we hope to also get some hot case where someone says, hey, I saw our UFO crash yesterday. Can you come here?
46:02 Jesse Michels? Wow.
46:02 Speaker 02 That's what we are hoping to get.
46:04 Jesse Michels? Do you have any recent cold cases?
46:06 Speaker 02 We are working on a cold case that I cannot go into details on, but it's super cool, super scary.
46:13 Jesse Michels? I wanna go.
46:16 Jesse Michels? That sounds amazing.
46:17 Speaker 02 But I can't comment further on that, but there are some really interesting cases, yes.
46:22 Jesse Michels? Wow.
46:22 Speaker 02 So.
46:23 Jesse Michels? Is there correlation with where the crashes occur? Are they around specific sites?
46:27 Speaker 02 I cannot answer any questions.
46:29 Jesse Michels? About that?
46:30 Speaker 02 I, I, I, I have, I'm, I'm, I cannot comment more on.
46:34 Jesse Michels? Okay, is it like, it's like a private group?
46:36 Speaker 02 It's a private group, so it's led by Tomas Povinder and Alex Torrell in Sweden.
46:41 Jesse Michels? Okay.
46:42 Speaker 02 So they are the project leaders.
46:45 Jesse Michels? Are you guys, is there like a desire to commercialize this stuff?
46:48 Speaker 02 We, we are trying to actually to stay as independent as possible so that we cannot get under pressure in any way. So, so far we are not funded, we are just putting our own private money into, if there's something fun that we find. We are looking into some interesting cases and we have something particularly interesting right now, I cannot comment on it. I hope that we will learn more in the coming year while working on that. And the idea is simply that we don't want to wait for governments to open up about materials or UFOs. I simply believe that this is a question everyone can work with.
47:32 Speaker 02 I believe that the only thing you need is some,
47:37 Speaker 02 some activity that one starts collecting, inquiring about potential UFO crashes and try to see is there anyone who's willing to share material or willing to share knowledge of such a crash.
47:52 Speaker 02 I suspect that there must be quite a number of such crashes in Europe also, and not only those that one discusses, those that I want to discuss regarding the United States.
48:07 Speaker 02 Where is the information and what can we learn about all this?
48:12 Jesse Michels? Is the methodology like scraping the internet for like people writing about this stuff?
48:16 Speaker 02 Well, we are doing some active investigations, of course, also looking ourselves for these places, but also hoping that someone will just inform us about something that is new, because it's sometimes maybe easier to go to a newly crashed UFO than to try to find it 50 years after.
48:37 Jesse Michels? Fascinating. Do you have a hypothesis as to, you know, per our conversation earlier, do you have a hypothesis as to what you'll find in the form of a crashed UFO?
48:46 Speaker 02 Well, it would be nice to find a flying saucer.
48:49 Jesse Michels? Do you believe most of them are flying saucers? Or do you think they're, you know, this Michael Schallenberger, this journalist just testified in front of Congress, put out this 12-page report, Immaculate Constellation, this program that seemed to be some unacknowledged special access program in the US. And in it, there are like, there's a taxonomy, there are like different descriptions of crafts. You have flying saucers, you have orbs, you have jellyfish is actually mentioned in this document. Do you believe in kind of a variety of things? Or do you think the flying saucer is the main thing? Or what do you think?
49:23 Speaker 02 Well, my guess is that there would be a variety of things, but I first would like to get confirmed a single object.
49:29 Jesse Michels? Yeah, that'd be great.
49:30 Speaker 02 Before I could even speculate further, because we need the actual physical proof. And I don't think any government is willing to release that.
49:39 Jesse Michels? Why do you think, you know, like?
49:41 Speaker 02 At least not now.
49:41 Jesse Michels? One, if I were playing devil's advocate and acting skeptical, I would say, if you really have crashes going on everywhere, and they're not just around military installations, then like, why don't we have a smoking gun yet? Like, if you have plenty of UFO crashes in Europe and other places in remote areas, why don't you have some like? Inuit tribe or something just come upon a crashed UFO and then like, you know, some anthropologist is visiting and then they see the crashed UFO or like, I don't know, random explorers or travelers or whatever, like not, we don't have one case of like, somebody, you know, having like at least a larger craft Gary Nolan has in his possession because
50:24 Jesse Michels? they were mailed to Jacques Vallée and he did mass spectrometry on them. These objects from an Uba Tubba crash in Brazil and, you know, from, from Roswell, you have bits and pieces of, you know, possible stuff, but you don't have like the larger objects that you might expect.
50:39 Speaker 02 Well, my guess is that if I'm going to think about a counter reply to that is that we have been so much as a society marinated in skepticism and we have been, let's say if you now would see something that is metallic and a flying saucer like, maybe you'll think this is some waste from industrial waste that is lying there. You will find probably 1,000 ways of dismissing that. And if someone would actually say, there seems to be a flying saucer in the garden, you will again think that this is some kind of military project and you shouldn't go to check it out,
51:21 Speaker 02 not to get into trouble. I think we have ways of rationalizing
51:27 Speaker 02 and coming up with counter arguments so, so effectively that we wouldn't be able to recognize a flying saucer if it even just lied in front of us. That's what I think that there is some sort of programming as well that has been happening.
51:42 Jesse Michels? What drives you on a deeper level? Do you hope we do make contact? And if so, how do you, how would, would the best form of that contact look like?
51:52 Speaker 02 Absolutely. I really hope we make contact with a benign, kind and nice civilization. I don't know how likely it is to find such a civilization, but imagine if we find out that we are in touch, how much could we learn? As species, how much could we learn from them? What could we learn? What are all the discoveries that we don't have to make, but that we could learn about from them directly? I think it's, it would be an amazing opportunity for humanity to. Actually progress.
52:24 Jesse Michels? Amen. Is there anything on molecular biology which you studied before? Or just life in general, or religion, or anything that you've rethought? Because of your current contemporary interest from an astronomical perspective in UAP?
52:41 Speaker 02 That's a very good question. I must say that. I don't know the answer to it, but I'm definitely. Open about the idea that. Another civilization might have been interacting with us for thousands or.
52:59 Speaker 02 Tens of thousands of years or longer. And that they could have brought some influence already. Into. Well, our development. I'm open for that. I want to know if it's that way or not. I want clear answers. I want clear answers with.
53:18 Speaker 02 If there are any. UFOs or flying saucers that can be seen in astronomical data. I want. A simple binary answers to whether there are. Non-human artificial objects on the earth or in our oceans. Or buried underground. And I want to know, of course, if there is some non-human biologics that has been.
53:44 Speaker 02 Caught or by the humans that are by the military. Because all these questions can change our understanding of our place in the universe. My place in the universe. And I would like to get answers within our lifetime. I think this is the most pressing and important question.
54:00 Jesse Michels? I'm with you. It's almost like a governor has been placed on. Fundamental physics and. Religion, our understanding of ourselves and the universe we live in, and that governor, hopefully it will come off. I have a weird feeling it will in our lifetime, which is like wild. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, right? Like, Sam Friedman, unfortunately, would have been wrong. Like. I don't think things shifted that much in the last fifty to seventy years, but maybe, maybe now things are speeding up. It kind of feels like they are.
54:27 Speaker 02 It feels that way to me, too. I just. Want to know, and I hope. That we will get a positive answer soon. Either through the disclosure process, for the political. Movement behind or through science. If that is the case.
54:47 Speaker 02 I just don't know what will be the implications, but I guess we will learn.
54:51 Jesse Michels? We'll find out. Well, Dr. Vial, I appreciate you spending time with me. This was really remarkable to just learn about all the stuff you're doing. How can, you know, is there, are you looking for more funding? Is that like something that you're always sort of open to? Or like what, how can people help you, you know, in your, in your efforts?
55:12 Speaker 02 Well, there are several ways that they can help us. One is with the Exopro project. We are always looking for more support to set up more telescopes in, uh, in New Mexico, where we have our telescope. I think I didn't, um.
55:28 Jesse Michels? Where in New Mexico?
55:29 Speaker 02 So, so, uh, the Exopro project that I'm having now was, um, setting up a network of telescopes because that will allow us to, um, to, uh, look for such a signature from an extraterrestrial probe or non-human artifact, but also confirm it via multiple telescope. And once you can see it in at least two telescopes, you can also get the distance to such an object if it's outside the atmosphere where we are looking. So we're looking outside the atmospheres with Exopro. But, uh, in order to localize it well, you need to have at least two that are well separated. And of course, for every additional telescope,
56:10 Speaker 02 there is a running cost coming in and also the cost of the telescope itself. So this is one way that one can be supporting us. Another thing that I would hope to do in Europe is that we would like to have at some point a conference, completely dedicated to, um, non-human artifacts and how to search for them in space, in the atmosphere, underwater, on the ground, underground. And also these are things that are difficult to organize. We would, where we always can, uh, will appreciate some kind of practical support and to organize it if you have a hole in Europe that we could use for free for the audience and so on.
56:54 Speaker 02 So there's lots of ways one can help.
56:56 Jesse Michels? Awesome. Well, audience, help Dr. Bureal if you can, if any of that applies to you. I really appreciate it. It was awesome. It was fantastic. Yeah.
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Previous The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World Next CIA Psychic Spy: “Mars Used To Have Alien Life” Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
