Pod Insights On with Kara Swisher Pete Buttigieg on Biden, Trump, Gaza, and His 2028 Presidential Plans About this episode Former U. S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg is on the shortlist of Democrats expected to make a run for the White House in 2028. Six years ago, the then-mayor of South Bend, Indiana, burst onto the national political scene as the first openly gay major presidential candidate. His centrist appeal and platform of good governance helped him win the Iowa Caucuses, edging out independent Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders and then-former Vice President Joe Biden. But should Buttigieg choose to run again, he’ll face a much more fractured Democratic electorate that’s still divided over Gaza, the 2024 election, and the best strategy to counter the MAGA movement.
In a live conversation recorded at the University of Michigan’s Rackham Auditorium, Kara and Pete talk about his concerns over how the Trump administration is using the assassination of conservative commentator Charlie Kirk to crack down on free speech; why he and other Democrats struggle to speak clearly about the war in Gaza; and his vision for a post-Trump America. Buttigieg also weighs in on whether he is, in fact, planning to run for president again in 2028. Thanks to the Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy for hosting this conversation.
Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript 12,099 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Kara Swisher? I'm starting to agree with Tucker Carlson on this fake gay thing. No, I don't. No, I don't.
0:06 Speaker 01 Chasten has threatened, my husband, has threatened to have my gay card revoked so many times. This is just going to be the latest insult.
0:12 Kara Swisher? We're going to definitely have to report you after this one.
0:26 Kara Swisher? Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Pete Buttigieg, the former U.S. Secretary of Transportation and former Democratic mayor of South Bend, Indiana. Buttigieg burst onto the national scene as a 2020 candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, and he's on the shortlist of Democrats expected to make a White House run in 2028. But if he chooses to go for it again, he'll face a much more fractured Democratic electorate than he did five years ago. The party is still divided over the war in Gaza and U.S. support for Israel, the reasons behind the Democratic Party's waning support among rural, working-class, and minority voters, and the continued fallout from Biden's decision to run again in 2024.
1:09 Kara Swisher? I've interviewed Pete Buttigieg several times, including when he was on the upswing and also post-his-run, when he was Transportation Secretary. So I've had a lot of insight into his development over time, and he still remains one of the most interesting candidates around in the Democratic field. He's also found a way to reach across the aisle in a way very few others have. We recorded this interview on Wednesday, September 17th, just hours before The Atlantic reported on a second excerpt from Vice President Kamala Harris's upcoming book. In it, Harris says Buttigieg was her first choice to be her running mate, but she decided it would be, quote, "too big a risk for a black woman to run with a gay man." Speaking to Politico Thursday, Buttigieg said he was surprised by Harris's comments
1:54 Kara Swisher? and added that he believes in, quote, "giving Americans more credit than that." Ouch. All right, let's get into my conversation with Pete Buttigieg. Our expert question comes from former Democratic-turned-independent West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin. The interview with Buttigieg was recorded in front of a live audience at the University of Michigan's Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy. Thanks to them for being such great hosts, so stick around.
2:28 Speaker 02 Kate holds the key to every brand asset your business has ever made. She's the only person who knows the difference between teal turquoise and the correct company blue. But she's going on vacation. Luckily, before the company falls into design disarray, you realize you can put Kate into Canva. Save every color font and logo to a brand kit everyone can access. And Kate can vacation happily in the knowledge that no one will ever use Comic Sans. What will you Canva today?
2:58 Speaker 03 Ripple has been powering modern finance for a decade. We're leading the charge to bridge the gap between existing financial systems and the future of finance. You can have it all: legacy, stability, and digital innovation. Systems that work with your other systems. Because with the right partner, the question isn't crypto or traditional finance. The question is simply, why choose? A new standard of modern finance. It's happening with Ripple. For informational purposes only, availability of products can vary and may be provided by different Ripple entities.
3:28 Speaker 04 If your best finance people are doing expense reports, chasing receipts, or spending time on month-end close, it's time to get Brex AF. Agentic finance that eliminates that work before it starts. Learn more at brex.com/af.
3:50 Kara Swisher? Thank you for coming on, On. I really appreciate it. I have lots to talk about. We're going to talk about the state of the Democratic Party, gerrymandering President Trump, the recent assassination of conservative commentator Charlie Kirk, and a range of things. And there's a lot to talk about, so we're going to dive right in. And I will say, I'm really enjoying your Train Daddy look. Those of you who know, know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about.
4:18 Speaker 01 You're setting a tone for our whole time together.
4:20 Kara Swisher? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about?
4:23 Speaker 01 Actually, no.
4:28 Kara Swisher? Oh my god, it's the Gilded Age, Train Daddy.
4:31 Speaker 01 Okay.
4:35 Kara Swisher? He's an icon for gay men, just so you know.
4:38 Speaker 01 Okay, I believe you.
4:40 Kara Swisher? Okay.
4:42 Kara Swisher? So, let's get into serious issues. I'll send you, I'll send you something, okay. So, it's been a week, I'm gonna get more serious, since Charlie Kirk was killed. You've condemned his killing, as most leaders in the Democrat Party have done. And you talked about the need to turn the rhetoric around. But the opposite has happened, especially because, including President Trump, Vice President Vance are sort of ginning up anger continually. So, give us a sense of where you think the country is right now and where it's headed, or is it noise that is not really where the country is?
5:18 Speaker 01 Well, I think in the days since it happened, and first and foremost, we still have to begin with the fact that a man was killed, that a family was robbed of a father, and that should never have happened, and that should never happen to anyone. And I think that's the only sane place to begin. I will say that we did see a truly bipartisan response, not a universal response by any means. But we saw leaders ranging from a conservative Republican like Spencer Cox, the governor of Utah, to Bernie Sanders on the left, saying things that really rhymed with each other about why and how political violence is unacceptable, how terrifying it is that America is at this fork in the road.
6:03 Speaker 01 And I do think that what's happened next in terms of the response out of the White House tees up a really challenging problem for those on my side of the aisle. And the problem is, how do we authentically live up to the things all of us, or most of us are saying about doing our part to reject the use of violence and to turn down the temperature? And at the same time, you gotta stand up to this stuff. If the White House is saying that they intend to use this as a basis for cracking down on their political opponents, you have to stand up to that. But I also think that that's less of a contradiction than it seems, that there are ways to be...
6:47 Speaker 01 Politically forceful and reject the use of force. And I think the way to think about it is that both of those things, our opposition to the way the White House is approaching this and our opposition to political violence, come from our commitment to freedom. Part of what makes political violence a crime, not just against the target, but against the country, is that it deprives our whole country of the freedom to have open, honest, safe, free political debate. And of course, that's also the harm of any government, and certainly our government, using this or any other pretext to use the powers of the state to go after people, not because, or groups, not because they are physically dangerous, but because they
7:32 Speaker 01 are politically opposed to those in charge. So I think those things sit together.
7:36 Kara Swisher? Were you surprised by the reaction?
7:38 Speaker 01 Which reaction? The White House reaction?
7:40 Kara Swisher? The first, I happened, yeah, I, when I heard it, I thought, okay, good beginning. And then, oh, no, this is not great.
7:46 Speaker 01 I mean, I wasn't exactly getting my hopes up for him to suddenly transform into a unifying leader who would bring us all together. I mean, the simple fact is, even though the most important job of the President of the United States is to hold the American people together, he does not view this as part of his job description. He said as much. It's not important to him. And so we saw what we saw. Now, the other thing, of course, that I think is important is that he didn't talk about the fact that there has been so much political violence directed against people who are left of center. This same summer that is ending in September with the horrific killing of a conservative
8:26 Speaker 01 activist in Utah, Charlie Kirk, began in June with a nationalist madman running around with a list of Democrats he wanted to kill. And he found some and killed them, Melissa Hortman and her husband in Minnesota, and shot others. So a partisan response to something that should horrify us on a bipartisan basis is wrong, it's bad, and sadly, it is unsurprising on the part of the President.
8:53 Kara Swisher? Why, from a political point of view, why do this? Because it's continuing and, and advance has continued to pretty much spew inaccurate statistics and just keep repeating it over and over again. What is the strategy from your perspective if you were them?
9:12 Speaker 01 I'm doing my best to get into their heads and imagine what they're trying to do. I think, for one thing, it's easier. I mean, it would be difficult for them to acknowledge just how much political violence has been inspired by the right, or to even acknowledge just that this has happened in ways that have aligned with either side. But also, you know, part of their project is to assert total control over this country. Not just lead the government, but control everything. And this is something that is enabling them to try to do that even more. We've seen that sort of thing before.
9:57 Speaker 01 I mean, history teaches us, some provocative incident then leads those in power to have a way to consolidate their power. And, you know, every step, if there's any cohesion, any pattern in what our president, this president does, it's, everything he does is about consolidating his own power.
10:15 Kara Swisher? Will it work?
10:16 Speaker 01 It could. I mean, if he's actually able to use this as a pretext to undermine groups and people who are politically difficult for him, that are not in any way associated with this or any other act of violence, but are a political problem for him, given that you have a court that's unwilling to check his power, and a congress that is unwilling to check his power, that could happen. Having said that, it's also possible that something different happens, probably from the bottom up among the American people before it gets to Washington, rather than the other way around. But I'm thinking about the people that I was arguing over beers with in college who were libertarian or conservative.
11:00 Speaker 01 Maybe we were arguing about guns, maybe we were arguing, sometimes we'd be arguing over something like... You know, the Clean Water Act. And they would say, "We can't have..." That's tyranny. It's too much power for the federal government to have, right? And then, and I can be a little sarcastic about that, but then they would say something like, "Look, you go down this road, and sooner or later, someday, you're gonna have masked federal agents walking down the street nabbing people because of op-eds they wrote." Well, joke's on me, right? It didn't happen in the way they said it would, but something like that is happening right now. So I'm trying to appeal to folks of that turn of mind and say, "This, politically, ought to be your Super Bowl." It's actually happening.
11:38 Kara Swisher? Well, except that a lot of people are calling for cancel culture. Like, the people that originally had been so opposed to cancel culture, such as Attorney General Pam Bondi.
11:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, it turns out they're against cancel culture selectively, which you just can't be, in the same way that you can't be against violence selectively. It's either right or it's wrong.
12:00 Kara Swisher? You recently said social media is clearly part of the problem in a big way when it comes to political violence. Governor Cox from Utah said the same thing. He used the term "cancer." It's obviously something I've talked about for, I think, about 20 years now. I think you're both right, but we're not gonna see any tech regulation anytime soon, especially since they've spent a lot of time coddling President Trump with golden statues and million-dollar donations and things like that. So, and putting your phone down puts the onus on the individual, not the companies themselves. So, talk about how you changed the social media equation.
12:38 Speaker 01 Well, we can't let the companies off the hook, but we also, just before I get into that, I would say, can't let ourselves off the hook. So, yes, we are being manipulated down to the brain chemistry level by companies and algorithms. But we do have some level of agency that we ought to be smart about, in the same way that lots of things had to be done around tobacco. But one of them was labeling and education and other things that then helped people to make choices that were healthier. It wasn't... I'm not saying you should've left it on the individuals. Obviously, the companies were responsible, but if you're just thinking about a broad spectrum, what are all the things we could be doing at the same time that would make a difference? One of them is certainly, let's think about anything and everything that we ourselves can control. But...
13:23 Speaker 01 I agree that it's not fair to just expect the user, the individual, especially young users, to just shoulder that on themselves. I'm not as pessimistic as you are about the possibility of some kind of regulation or rules here. I get what you're saying, that they probably have a protector in the president.
13:43 Kara Swisher? They had a protector in President Obama, too.
13:46 Speaker 01 Yes, in a different way and for different reasons, but yes. But, you know, back then, it was that idea, okay, we don't know where this is going to go, let's let a thousand flowers bloom. Now we know, right? And I think a lot of us who had really high hopes for the democratizing power of social media 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, have been humbled by what's actually happened. But, look, I actually think there's a really interesting, I'm not going to say consensus, but a lot of strange bedfellows coming together around regulations. Think somebody like Josh Hawley, I can't imagine agreeing with him on almost anything. But you have figures like him on the right, Spencer Cox himself, right? The law they passed in Utah, now the companies are fighting it,
14:30 Speaker 01 but a law that would do something about that. So I think if the American people turn on these companies, it won't be because of what they've done to harm our politics. It'll be because of what they have done to harm our kids.
14:43 Kara Swisher? Correct.
14:43 Speaker 01 But either way, it could happen.
14:44 Kara Swisher? What would you push? You can't sue them, there's no regulation against them. They have unlimited power, unlimited money, unlimited access now. The attempts by the Biden administration to push back on them were met with loss.
14:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't have all the answers, but some things I've observed.
15:00 Kara Swisher? Which one of those many things would you do?
15:01 Speaker 01 Well, the Utah approach is to have some controls on exposure. I think that's a good place to start. The rules that, again, are getting really interesting bipartisan support around phones in schools, that's just things that can at least get some measure of control for the most susceptible and vulnerable users. I do think, you know, whether it's returning to the now, I think, beaten-to-death conversation about Section 230 or some new frontier on that, we still have to talk about formal responsibility that companies bear.
15:29 Kara Swisher? Liability.
15:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, which is how America, for better or for worse, solves most problems related to irresponsible behavior. And I think we should think about it. It sounds like it has less teeth and it doesn't work on its own. But I do think like naming or labeling things can have a lot of power too. I learned this as somebody who was a watchdog on airlines. We have rules that airlines had to follow that we came up with. We had enforcement actions for violations when the airlines didn't follow the rules. But actually, one of the most powerful things we did in terms of changing airline behavior was we just put a bunch of information out about like here are red X's and green checkmarks on a website that let everybody know here's the airlines that will take care of you if
16:12 Speaker 01 you get delayed or need a meal or a hotel or something and here's the ones that won't. I couldn't believe how powerful that was. So I think all of these things have to travel together.
16:22 Kara Swisher? When you think about doing that, are you surprised by the shift of tech companies toward Trump, given the hostility they had towards the administration you worked in?
16:35 Speaker 01 I think the shift was well underway by the time the Biden administration was in office, or at least by the middle of that time.
16:44 Speaker 01 So by the end, I wasn't so surprised. Early on, I was. I mean, there were people who 10 years ago I met when I was running for Chair of the DNC, which means they weren't just Democrats. They were Democrats who cared enough about being a Democrat to care who the Chair of the DNC is, who most people don't even think about on a regular basis, and went on to be Trump supporters or Trump fundraisers. I mean, that did shock me. I think I overestimated the extent to which they were serious about being libertarian.
17:16 Speaker 01 Because I always knew they weren't maybe quite where I was politically, but I imagined that what they really cared about was freedom. And so to suddenly get on board with, you know, an administration that has stripped freedoms ranging from the, you know, the freedom to choose that they destroyed the first time around to the freedoms of speech and association that they're going after now.
17:39 Speaker 01 And over what? Because we did too many DEI trainings? Maybe we did. That doesn't make it okay to turn against free speech if you're a libertarian.
17:47 Kara Swisher? So how would you bring them back? They're powerful in every single aspect. And right now, Larry Ellison, he just bought CBS via his son. They're likely to try to buy CNN and Warner Brothers. He's getting TikTok. Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post, etc., etc. They are consolidating power across many things. How do you get them back? Pretend I'm Elon Musk for a second.
18:14 Speaker 01 Oh, jeez.
18:16 Kara Swisher? What would you say to?
18:18 Speaker 01 Well, let's bookmark.
18:19 Kara Swisher? Because you did make fun of Elon Musk. You said he's really sensitive. Too bad he didn't get to go to the CARF summit. That set him off.
18:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, and look, we probably should have invited him to the CARF thing. But I want to bookmark the question of whether what we really need to do is to win them over, or whether what we really need to do is have a policy framework where they can't dominate us.
18:40 Speaker 01 But I do think there is a case to be made, at least for the rank and file of Silicon Valley, that's like, wait a minute. Part of it's about the rule of law. You're riding a tiger that sooner or later will eat you too. Like, yeah, maybe you think you're benefiting right now because the president's too busy going after the easiest pickings, like universities or law firms that employ people who were inconvenient to him, or broadcasters. But you can't imagine that you're going to play his game and sooner or later he won't turn on you too.
19:09 Kara Swisher? So that's the leopards will eat your face argument?
19:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:12 Kara Swisher? Okay.
19:13 Speaker 01 I think there's also a case to be made that you can't have a functioning business in the long term. Because I think part of the answer to why they turned is that they are business people first and foremost. Sometimes more interested in their business than in the citizenship that I would hope would motivate.
19:34 Kara Swisher? Well, they want to live on Mars, so there's that.
19:37 Speaker 01 But I do think the other question is, okay, what else has to change for it just not to be like? Remember, we've been here before. I mean, we haven't been here before with social media, but 100 years ago or 120 years ago, we would have been reading newspapers that were dominated by certain people who owned newspapers and railroads at the same time.
19:55 Kara Swisher? Train daddy.
19:58 Speaker 01 If you will, apparently. So.
20:03 Kara Swisher? And even.
20:04 Speaker 01 I really got some, I gotta Google some stuff after this.
20:08 Kara Swisher? You need to chat GPT, but I'm not gonna go on with that.
20:10 Speaker 01 These problems aren't like completely... Some of these things that feel unprecedented are more precedented than we might think.
20:17 Kara Swisher? Okay. What is not unprecedented is this idea... Maybe it is precedent that there's a vast domestic terror movement on the left and promise to use the federal government to crack down on it. What are you most nervous about in that threat? Sometimes they're just yammering on, other times they do have the power of the government.
20:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, what I'm worried about...
20:37 Kara Swisher? And they seem very enthusiastically going through their list.
20:40 Speaker 01 Totally. I mean, it's not hard to imagine a roadmap that goes from here, where any 501(c)(4) that challenges the president is described as a terrorist organization. And again, we see that. I mean, other countries, the ones we worry about becoming like, Russia, for example, this is what they do, right? Putin doesn't say like, "I'm gonna shut you down because I don't like you." He says, "Okay, I don't like you, I'm gonna shut you down because you..." Or terrorist organization, or because you didn't pay your taxes, or whatever. They come up with something that, at least on its face, as a fig leaf, is defensible. And we are fast on a road toward that. And again, that should horrify every conservative and every libertarian just as much as every progressive.
21:23 Kara Swisher? It doesn't.
21:24 Speaker 01 Yeah. Well...
21:25 Kara Swisher? What are you most nervous about? Right now, they're attacking the University of California, one of the greatest education systems in the history of the world, actually, in terms of educating people. And many other institutions here, everywhere. There's not a university not under siege. There's not a media company not under siege. There's not a law firm not under siege. Is there a line for you? Is there somewhere where you'd be like, "Oh, no, no, no." Now they're going after George Soros, which I thought they'd get to that first, but they haven't.
21:56 Speaker 01 I think there's a lot of people waiting for some line, like some...
21:59 Kara Swisher? What's yours?
22:00 Speaker 01 Indicator that goes off.
22:02 Kara Swisher? Or has it been crossed?
22:03 Speaker 01 I don't think it works that way. I think 100 lines have been crossed that are already really bad, and I think there's more where that came from. Nobody's gonna just come down and tell us, "Hey, you just had an authoritarian breakthrough."
22:16 Speaker 01 It's underway. And the real question is, does it get consolidated?
22:22 Kara Swisher? Right.
22:23 Speaker 01 Or does it get redirected and disrupted?
22:25 Kara Swisher? Right.
22:26 Speaker 01 And, you know, what most worries me is that the American people don't understand their own power. I mean, obviously, Congress is just completely incapable of standing up to this president. So the only thing that'll really change is if people, especially people in Congress, who now believe that their political survival depends on going along with things that they know, deep down, are wrong, is replaced by an awareness that their political survival depends on doing things that are right.
22:59 Kara Swisher? We'll be back in a minute.
23:08 Speaker 02 Kate holds the key to every brand asset your business has ever made. She's the only person who knows the difference between teal turquoise and the correct company blue. But she's going on vacation. Luckily, before the company falls into design disarray, you realize you can put Kate into Canva. Save every color font and logo to a brand kit everyone can access. And Kate can vacation happily in the knowledge that no one will ever use Comic Sans. What will you canva today?
23:39 Kara Swisher? Support for this show comes from Delete Me. Have you ever Googled yourself and found your home address, phone number, or the name of a family member? It's unsettling. Here's what you do to clean up your online data footprint. Go to joindelete.me/kara and enter the code Kara. You get 20% off Delete Me. Delete Me removes your personal information that's being sold online. Delete Me was named the top pick for data removal services by Wirecutter, so you know you're in good hands. I really like Delete Me. I use it all the time. It's always surprising how much data people have about me. I am very privacy forward, and I still find so much stuff in mine online, some of which is incorrect, some of which is compiled in a really disturbing way. And you have to sort of control it like weeds.
24:23 Kara Swisher? Take control of your data and keep your private... Life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now, at a special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindelete.me/ kara and use the promo code Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindelete.me/ kara and enter the code Kara at checkout. That's joindelete.me/ kara, code Kara. Support for this show comes from Hers. Losing weight on your own can often feel like a fight you never win. Luckily, weight loss by Hers offers access to the FDA-approved Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen.
25:04 Kara Swisher? Wegovy is the first-ever GLP-1 weight loss medication available in a pill, but also comes as a pen, so you've got options. With Wegovy, you can lose up to 20% of your body weight. People lost an average of 14% body weight at 64 weeks in a clinical trial of Wegovy alongside diet and exercise. To get started with Wegovy, just go to forhers.com and complete an online consultation with a licensed provider who will determine if your prescription is appropriate. And Hers doesn't stop there. Nutrition and lifestyle guidance are part of the plan, along with access to 24/7 messaging with your care team, so support is always in reach. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/kara to access personalized, affordable care for weight loss, hair, menopause, and more.
25:49 Kara Swisher? That's forhers.com/kara. Individual results may vary, and stopping treatment may result in weight regain. Let's pivot to the state of the Democratic Party, because one would imagine this would be the counterweight, and specifically, its credibility deficit. I would call it fecklessness. Others would use other terms. On Meet the Press, let's go back a little bit. You said that President Joe Biden, quote, "should not have run." It's been almost a year since the election. You waited until Vice President Harris said the same thing in a book excerpt, said it was reckless. I'm not going to say no shit Sherlock to you, but I'm thinking that in my head.
26:28 Speaker 01 Well, first of all, I didn't. I said something along these lines before that book came out. But also, like, yeah, look, everybody got to that conclusion, including, by the way, President Biden, who took himself out of the race.
26:37 Kara Swisher? Sure.
26:38 Speaker 01 Belatedly, we can say.
26:39 Kara Swisher? Okay. Is it a position you've recently come to, or did you feel it at the time? I'm going to be interviewing Vice President Harris in two weeks.
26:49 Kara Swisher? What about during it? You were in that administration. And I know that Scott and I on Pivot were talking about it a full year before that and got attacked really relentlessly by Democrats, saying we needed to get on board. And I was like, not on that train. I'm not getting on that train. Or you didn't understand the assignment. What, talk about from inside. What took so long for people like you and Vice President Harris and others to unequivocally say that he shouldn't have run?
27:15 Speaker 01 Well, people like me were not consulted on the decision about whether he should run.
27:20 Kara Swisher? Sure, but you have eyes.
27:22 Speaker 01 And what my eyes told me was that the sitting President of the United States and the leader of my party had made a decision that he was going to run and that our country faced a choice between President Joe Biden or President Donald Trump. And it was not hard for me to know not just who I was going to vote for, but who I was going to do everything in my power to make sure won. And while there's lots of things that hindsight tells you about how and when he made his decision to change course and the hundred or however many days it was of the Harris campaign, and I continued just as enthusiastically backing the Harris campaign and then the Harris Walls campaign as I did the Biden-Harris campaign.
28:02 Speaker 01 And anybody who was part of making sure that they and not Donald Trump would win, anybody who tried to do that, I think should have their head held high because it was the right thing to do.
28:12 Kara Swisher? Was there a moment in that time period where you thought, oh, no, he should quit sooner?
28:18 Speaker 01 I mean, obviously, all of us who saw the debate immediately began asking ourselves tough questions. And I knew that he was asking himself tough questions and eventually stepped aside. I think that was a turning point for...
28:34 Kara Swisher? For you all. I mean, even before the debate, polling showed a majority of voters were worried about his age. I'd love to understand from the inside, like what happened. I get like...
28:42 Speaker 01 Okay, I don't know which inside you mean. Because when they're like inside the room where he's deciding whether to run again, they're not calling...
28:49 Kara Swisher? As a cabinet member.
28:49 Speaker 01 The Secretary of Transportation is not invited into that room. But...
28:54 Kara Swisher? But you're nearer than I was.
28:57 Speaker 01 Potentially, yeah.
28:58 Kara Swisher? Definitely.
28:58 Speaker 01 But to the extent that I was involved in the campaign, it was how do we make sure that this campaign and not the Trump campaign is the one that wins?
29:04 Kara Swisher? How does the party, though, then regain credibility with voters who are skeptical? By just blaming the Bidens, because that seems to be—I get why the Bidens did it.
29:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:14 Kara Swisher? I understand it.
29:16 Speaker 01 I think the answer is to tell the truth.
29:18 Kara Swisher? Of what happened.
29:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, and why we believe what we believe, right? So, again, the truth, at least the truth that I lived, was that we had a choice between two candidates, two presidents. It was not close, who should be president between those two presidents. And then we had a different choice when he stepped aside. And it still was not close to me, who should win and who should lose.
29:42 Kara Swisher? I get that, but during—I think I'm trying to say a very specific question. During that time period when there were worries, why didn't someone quit? Why didn't someone say—go to him and say, "Listen, love ya, but you gotta get out"?
29:58 Speaker 01 I think—
29:59 Kara Swisher? Is that impossible to do in the current—the way things are?
30:02 Speaker 01 Well, it's not like you can just, like, book a meeting and go in and tell him not to be president anymore. Or maybe there's some people who could, like people in his family. I don't know. I don't know how that worked, but I know that enough people did, that eventually he made that choice.
30:14 Kara Swisher? Well, it was Nancy Pelosi, which is on-brand for her. But—I'm just interested, like, why that didn't happen sooner. So, then what happened is—it was very quickly Vice President Harris, probably many people think far too quickly. So, every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours.
30:34 Speaker 05 Hello, this is Joe Manchin, and I would like to ask my friend Pete Buttigieg a question. Do you believe, Pete, that the Democrats should have had a mini-primary, at least 30 days, when Joe Biden decided not to run? And do you think it would have helped, or it'd have been more harmful?
30:52 Kara Swisher? That's a good question. That's former Senator Joe Manchin. I just interviewed him this week, and he kindly provided that.
30:59 Speaker 01 I think it probably would have helped. I didn't think that then.
31:04 Kara Swisher? Why?
31:06 Speaker 01 I think—I felt that we were so under the gun, that every day mattered so much, and that she was prepared to—not just come out running, but to—to take the organization that had been built over years and immediately carry it forward, that we just couldn't lose one day.
31:31 Speaker 01 I think with the benefit of hindsight...
31:34 Speaker 01 If there had been, if we'd invested those 30 days,
31:40 Speaker 01 then had she been the nominee, she'd have done so after consolidating the party in a competition. And had she been unable to do that, then almost by definition, there would have been a stronger nominee.
31:52 Speaker 01 But it's one of a million things that's a lot easier to say now, looking back with the benefit of hindsight, than it was in the moment.
31:58 Kara Swisher? Is there too much cautiousness in the Democratic Party? Obviously, Trump doesn't have any caution.
32:02 Speaker 01 Often, yeah. I mean, not that the answer is to... Yeah, I mean, I don't think the answer is to emulate Trump, but...
32:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, to take one example, like, most of my Democratic colleagues still hesitate to go into venues and spaces that I think we need to be in, where people might not be exactly on our side or even on the level. But it's, although it's happening more and more. Like, I remember getting like, not just feeling like I was one of the only ones who would go on Fox News, but having to defend going on Fox News. Like, people said I was, you know, contributing to their business model and all kinds of reasons why I was actually... People, some people said it was actively harmful to go on to Fox News. Now, I think it's relatively uncontroversial in the party that we should be there. Well, it's funny, they're not booking me as often as they used to.
32:55 Kara Swisher? They're obsessed with Gavin, just so you know.
32:57 Speaker 01 Oh, okay. Well, as long as somebody's doing it. But also into the kind of the online... Look, most people younger than me aren't getting the majority of their news from any TV.
33:05 Kara Swisher? No, that's quite an age demographic.
33:07 Speaker 01 And so, obviously, there's kind of an online expansion of that same principle. But the principle's there, and I think, I would take the podcasts. So, you know, I've started doing some of these podcasts that are like three hours long.
33:18 Speaker 01 And even if you intended to be on Talking Points for three hours, it is just not possible. Which is risky. It's a risk, and it's the kind of risk that a lot of people in the consultantocracy in the party tell you you shouldn't take. Because you will definitely put a foot wrong in three hours. You just will.
33:37 Kara Swisher? Do you think you're risk averse?
33:39 Speaker 01 I think I'm less risk averse about that than than others who wouldn't do it.
33:43 Kara Swisher? Okay, let's talk about a topic, then. You have a well-earned reputation as an effective communicator, 100%. You got blowback for equivocating when you were asked about Gaza in an interview on Pod Save America. You now say you would recognize a Palestinian state as part of... Go ahead.
33:57 Speaker 01 Go ahead.
33:58 Kara Swisher? As part of a two... If I'm wrong, you can correct me. As part of a two-state solution, and the US should not pass another 10-year agreement with Israel on foreign military aid. What... Did it take getting dragged online to clearly state your position on this issue? And please, more clearly state it for us.
34:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, so on the specific issues, there were three things that I spoke to. One was a resolution about offensive weapons going to Israel. And I believe, like a lot of Senate Democrats who voted for it, that that was an important step, something that I would support, even though I'm not in the Senate.
34:35 Speaker 01 Because it's one of the few things I could think of that would get the attention of Netanyahu in the conduct of the war. So that's number one. Number two, on the recognition of a Palestinian state. I think that if you believe in a two-state solution, then by definition, you believe in the recognition of a Palestinian state. But that does not mean that you just turn around tomorrow morning and do it while Hamas is still in charge and with no security guarantees for Israelis who are living surrounded by countries and organizations, including Hamas, that are dedicated to wiping them out. So, yes, it has to happen, but it has to happen as part of a negotiated, credible, and enforceable agreement.
35:16 Speaker 01 And then on the third policy issue, the MOU, in the past, we've had our security relationship... Defined by a, I think it's happened three times now, by a 10-year non-binding but important MOU between the US and Israel. I'm not sure that's the right answer going forward. I'm not saying I'm sure structurally what all the technical details of it should be. What I am saying is by 2028 or 2029, we don't know what we're going to be looking at in terms of how the security relationship is structured. I can tell you for sure right now that there should be a security relationship, that that should include the US maintaining its historic commitment to making sure that Iran or anybody else is not able to achieve their aims of destroying Israel.
35:59 Speaker 01 But that is a defensive goal, which is different from some of the things that the Israeli government has expected the American taxpayer or requested the American taxpayer to continue to support.
36:11 Kara Swisher? One of my students here named Zach wants to know. He asked me, he sent me a note. If you still consider Israel a strong ally of the United States, and if so, what line would Israel have to cross to lose your support?
36:25 Speaker 01 So Israel is not behaving, obviously, as a good friend, but that's past the point, right? The problem is that the Netanyahu government is perpetrating atrocities in Gaza.
36:33 Kara Swisher? Atrocity is the word you want to use. Would you use the word genocide?
36:37 Speaker 01 I have a lot of respect for not just the moral weight of that word, but the legal definition it represents. And so, out of deference to that, I'm not going to jump into that semantic fight. But the important thing is that the killing has to stop, the starvation has to stop, the war has to stop. And of course, the hostages need to come home and Hamas needs to not be a threat to the people of Gaza. Let me tell you why I equivocated.
37:05 Kara Swisher? Okay. Well, you're good at it, but go ahead.
37:10 Speaker 01 Thanks, I guess.
37:12 Kara Swisher? You're good at it.
37:13 Speaker 01 Anytime I talk about this issue, I'm mindful of the pain that people experience. Even if they're not, it's not quite accurate to say they're on opposite sides of it, because so many people I know who are really, really concerned.
37:29 Speaker 01 About protecting Israel's ability to exist and separately, I want to say that separately, really concerned about the explosion of antisemitism on American campuses. We'll experience when you say things, even things that I think they too would agree are inarguably true about what's happening in Gaza. If you say it in a certain way or you say certain things in a certain order, their worst fears about the abandonment of Israel or of of American Jews facing antisemitism are confirmed. So one of the reasons why as somebody who does a lot of talking and a lot of politics, I have rarely felt closer to my limits in terms of the tools that are available to build consensus and talk forthrightly
38:14 Speaker 01 about these issues than on this is because I'm conscious of the pain that comes with talking about this, even when we are saying things that are clearly true. Because it turns out if you say certain things that are true and don't say all these other things that are also true, some people are inclined, for very understandable reasons, to assume the worst.
38:32 Kara Swisher? Certainly, but when Democrats talk about building back credibility as voters, it's actually framed around bringing back working class voters, for example. We're in Michigan estate. Harris lost in part because of Arab and young voters who are furious about the Biden administration's support of Israel. How do you win back credibility if you're worried about that? I mean, a recent poll found 77% of Democrats think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. And a UN inquiry concluded that it had. How do you bridge that gap then? Because again, like I said, same thing with Biden. We have eyes. We can see. How do you do that as a Democratic Party?
39:12 Speaker 01 By naming all of the things that are all true and that collide with each other in messy ways but are still definitely true. And by the way, this is one, and who knows even just between when we're sitting here and when people are listening to this podcast, what else will have happened on the ground? But in the face of this ground invasion, you see a lot of Israelis standing up and saying this is not, certainly not helping the hostages. This is not helping our security as the Israeli people, and it is wrong. And so I think part of what we have to do, and it's been hard in the US politics for all kinds of reasons, but to speak about this as freely, frankly, as possible in Israel.
39:53 Speaker 01 There are sometimes things that I have read on the pages of the Jerusalem Post or Haaretz, Israeli papers, that in the past, people weren't willing to say in US politics. And we have to, because they're true.
40:08 Kara Swisher? What would you state now if you were in a position of authority, you would do? What would be one of the first things you would do?
40:16 Speaker 01 It would be to make clear that the US is not going to subsidize just anything. We're not going to let the Netanyahu government take American dollars and the credibility that comes with being an ally or partner of the United States and use it to, for example, use starvation as a tool of war. It's wrong, and it's one of those things that is so wrong that all of the other things, which might also be true, just cannot possibly make it right. And that does mean taking a look at the things that, which is why that resolution, even though I think it was symbolic, was important. So I don't have all of the answers to something as vexing and as just repeatedly brutal as the Middle East conflict.
41:01 Speaker 01 But I think that the next president needs to be more willing to do that than any previous president from either party.
41:11 Kara Swisher? You do understand where young voters are. I've watched the shift happen in real time right now. And the Democratic Party has to respond to that, presumably.
41:21 Speaker 01 Yes.
41:22 Kara Swisher? So I'm going to move on to something else. The federal government is set to run out of funding and shut down at the end of the month. In March, Chuck Schumer decided to avoid a showdown with the administration. He corralled enough Senate Democratic votes to help Republicans keep the government funded. What about this time? Should Democrats help Republicans keep the government open, or should it shut it down again? And what are the strategic benefits to both approaches?
41:43 Speaker 01 Well, first of all, I don't want to buy into the premise that it's the Democrats who would be shutting down the government.
41:49 Kara Swisher? I get it, but they might be.
41:50 Speaker 01 The Republicans are in charge.
41:52 Kara Swisher? Right.
41:53 Speaker 01 They have the House, they have the Senate, they have the presidency. And if there's anything we know about this presidency, it's this attempt to assert and then expand its control over everything. So if there is a shutdown, it will be because of Donald Trump and the Republicans. I'm just going to insist on that.
42:10 Speaker 01 If they want to ask for Democrats to vote for a Republican budget, there are certain things that Democrats are not going to be able to do, even if Republicans are saying, "If you don't do this for us, it's all going to shut down." And I think right now, there are different answers from different voices in the party, in the House. Voices like Pat Ryan and Jake Hawkenclaw have been part of a group that has laid out a pretty specific set of things. The biggest, well, I wouldn't say the biggest, but one certainly big one, right? Is that I don't see how you can tell Democrats,
42:55 Speaker 01 "The government will shut down unless you vote to strip away access to healthcare from Americans." So I think that's likely to be a clear line. But there are many others. And look, if we're going to go into that, we have to know what it is we hope to do to have a less bad outcome than if Republicans just get to run roughshod.
43:16 Kara Swisher? Is there a strategic benefit to just saying, "Go ahead, shut it down"?
43:19 Speaker 01 Not one to be taken lightly.
43:21 Kara Swisher? Why not? It's theirs. You know, they're holding the bag.
43:25 Speaker 01 Yeah. But the reason you can't take it lightly is because how many people will get hurt. And if their goal is already to wreck the federal government, and they're well on their way, a lot of, there's just going to be a lot of damage left in the wake of this. So I'm not saying that, I don't believe Democrats should roll over on this. I think it's different than it was in the spring. And I think that, frankly, the unpopularity of the Republican proposals that they've jammed through is becoming clearer and clearer, too. And again, just philosophically, I think the Republicans are in charge. And if you're asking Democrats to actively cooperate with you, you can't demand that we support...
44:07 Kara Swisher? But you don't see a benefit. I hate to use a Mel Robbins term, but let them.
44:12 Speaker 01 Look, there's been this theory...
44:14 Kara Swisher? You know who Mel Robbins is, right? She's real popular. Anyway, look it up.
44:22 Speaker 01 There's been this theory from day one that if... that what Democrats need to do is just let Republicans screw everything up, burn everything down, and then they'll screw it up and then they'll get blamed, and then we'll come back into power.
44:33 Kara Swisher? Yes, that's the theory.
44:34 Speaker 01 I think that theory is wrong. I don't disagree that they'll screw it up.
44:41 Speaker 01 I am not so sure that they'll just get blamed. One thing they're really good at, much better than actually running the government, is apportioning blame.
44:50 Speaker 01 And that's even more so is they're dominating some of the ways people get their information. So, again, I think there really needs to be a really forceful response this time. I just don't want to assume that it's going to be easy, or that it should be done lightly.
45:07 Kara Swisher? Is Chuck Schumer fit to do that?
45:11 Speaker 01 He... I mean, one thing I've experienced is that he is exceptionally aware of what the dynamics are to actually get anything done, or to stop anything from actually getting done in the Senate. And I would also say, the virtues of a caucus leader in the Senate or the House, and the things you expect from them, might be different than what you expect from a presidential candidate, or a person playing a different role, or a governor, or a different person playing a different role in the party. I do hope, though, that he recognizes how much has changed, how much the toolkit has changed, how much the relationship with the public has changed.
45:54 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
45:54 Speaker 01 Since some of the defining fights that might still be shaping his muscle memory.
45:59 Kara Swisher? Yes, I would suggest you not do social media anymore, actually. Take a look, please, you'll understand. You've seen it.
46:05 Speaker 01 I know what you mean.
46:06 Kara Swisher? It's a problem.
46:09 Kara Swisher? It really is. You need to speak to him. I'm sending you, not me. Like, stop it, Chuck. You're hurting my eyes. Even if Democratic states also gerrymander their congressional districts, it's likely you can't match these Republican gains, who are much more willing to do so, let alone pick up more seats than the GOP. It's not a realistic tit-for-tat, from what I understand. Where, how do you feel about gerrymandering? And what do you think Democrats are putting their energy right now to make sure the party isn't permanently shut out of power?
46:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, look, I do think there's a chance that some of these redistricting plans will be too clever by half, because there's only so many Republicans to rearrange, and that might backfire on them. But I don't, I wouldn't hang my hat on that as a strategy. How do I feel about gerrymandering? It's terrible. I mean, in Indiana, for example.
47:00 Kara Swisher? Where you're headed next, correct?
47:01 Speaker 01 Yes. Yeah, as we, as we speak, I'm getting ready to head to Indiana to, among other things, do a rally around gerrymandering. They are openly saying, "We want a 9-0 map." Indiana, obviously, I grew up there, I served there as mayor, it is a conservative place. But it is maybe a 60-40 kind of place right now. So in addition to just the basic, obvious unfairness of a place where if you get five people off the street at random, probably two out of those five will be Democrats, or let's say nine, maybe four of them would be Democrats, but the nine members you're going to send to Congress are going to be 100% Republican.
47:41 Speaker 01 But it's more than that, it's the contempt for the voter. To just even go around saying it's going to be 9-0 means you are saying to the voter, "We're going to decide who's going to win that election," before you even bother to vote. Which is so insulting to every voter, Democrat, Republican, independent, in the state of Indiana. And I don't know how good our chances are of pushing back on that in a state house with a Republican supermajority, although you can tell from the body language that they're a little bit embarrassed that Trump is pressuring or requiring them to do this.
48:18 Kara Swisher? That doesn't seem to have... Stop them?
48:20 Speaker 01 No, because they're more afraid of him than they are of either their own conscience or their own constituents. But at the very least, I think we can make sure that there is a political price to be paid for expressing that level of contempt toward your own voters. So what do I think of Jerry Mattering? I hate it. Also, if they're doing it, which shouldn't be possible, but if they're doing it, we can't just sit here with our high-minded ideas and not respond.
48:46 Kara Swisher? So you support what Gavin Newsom's doing in California or anywhere else, or any?
48:50 Speaker 01 Yes. I think if this is going to be how they, how, how things work, we can't just sit there and let them do it. But that's not a long-term answer. What we need is widespread, durable, actual reform. We got, what, 435 House districts, right? Fewer than one in 10 are competitive. In a country that's basically 50/50.
49:12 Kara Swisher? Mm-hmm.
49:12 Speaker 01 That is nuts. Obviously, we need a comprehensive structural solution to that. And that shouldn't be partisan. I mean, it is, but it shouldn't be.
49:23 Kara Swisher? We'll be back in a minute.
49:31 Speaker 03 Support for this show comes from Indeed. When the pressure's on and you need to hire the right person for the job, Indeed Sponsored Jobs has got your back. Instead of forcing you to spend tons of time searching, Indeed Sponsored Jobs matches you with quality candidates fast. According to their data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to
50:09 Speaker 06 Through the chaos, this is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners to the show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.
50:43 Speaker 06 If you're looking to hire, you need Indeed. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, you can spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help your job get the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.
51:27 Kara Swisher? Are you a pet owner? Every six seconds, a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill over $1,000. Always an unwelcome surprise. That's where Fetch comes in. Fetch is the most complete pet insurance for dogs and cats. According to consumeradvocate.org, you get paid back up to 90% of vet bills at any vet in the US and Canada with claims paid back in as little as two days. Go to fetchpet.com/save right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.com/save.
52:06 Kara Swisher? Speaking of respect for voters and what people they choose, in July you were asked if you would endorse Zoran Mambe for mayor of New York City. You said at the time he hadn't asked for your endorsement, which sounds rather quaint, and you're not a player in New York City politics, but you would talk to him about it. Now, it's now September and Governor Cuomo just said he couldn't name a single living Democrat he admired, besides his other incredible attributes. That was facetious. Given the choice between these two candidates and Eric Adams, the hot mess that he is, who would you rather see win? And do you need an invitation to endorse him? Governor Hochul just did, for example.
52:48 Speaker 01 It's not a...
52:49 Kara Swisher? Because the voters picked him, young voters. And I'll just make a little moment. We tell young people to vote, and then they vote, and we tell them their vote sucks. I'm sorry, that's their vote, and so we should respect it.
53:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, so again, I'm not getting formally involved in a New York City mayor's race.
53:12 Speaker 01 But between those choices you laid out, yeah, it's not close. I mean, the ways in which Andrew Cuomo has disqualified himself, in which the current mayor has disqualified himself. And don't get me started on the Republican candidate. Like, it's not close.
53:27 Kara Swisher? He likes cats.
53:30 Speaker 01 Okay, that's...
53:32 Kara Swisher? I'd put him number two in my choice list, but okay.
53:36 Speaker 01 Everybody's got something.
53:40 Speaker 01 But yeah, I think that's very clear, right? And by the way, I also think, even though I sit in a different place in the Democratic coalition than he does, I think that he has been absolutely right to be relentlessly focused on affordability. And I think that we could learn a lot. Like, some things obviously are not as useful. Some things that worked in a Democratic primary in New York City may not be particularly portable or useful here in Michigan.
54:09 Kara Swisher? Sure, but he's not running in Michigan.
54:12 Speaker 01 Right, but in terms of what we could learn in Michigan or anywhere else from his campaign...
54:17 Kara Swisher? So why not just endorse him?
54:18 Speaker 01 First and foremost...
54:19 Kara Swisher? Why not just say, "I like the cut of his jib"? Say it just like that.
54:28 Speaker 01 I'm not planning to get formally involved in that race.
54:31 Kara Swisher? Okay.
54:32 Speaker 01 But, again, I think those things are really impressive. I also think he has a real challenge, though. And the challenge is, in the same way that the most important job of the president is to bring the country together. One thing I learned very quickly as mayor, and as a very policy-minded mayor, who came in not terribly interested in anything but the specific policies I wanted to implement. The job of a mayor is to bring everybody together. Doesn't mean everybody's gonna support you politically, but you are a walking symbol of what people in your city have in common. And what he will need in order to succeed as mayor, and what I think he, from what I can see, has recognized in terms of the campaign too,
55:16 Speaker 01 is the importance of moving on from some of the things that were more divisive in past statements or past positions. And that's not about necessarily even changing a policy, but making sure that he positions himself to bring people together, including people who might not support him politically.
55:33 Kara Swisher? What do you think is biggest asset and is biggest the negative, from your perspective, just from yours?
55:38 Speaker 01 I mean, I think, in terms of assets, again, the focus on affordability. Now, that sets a high bar, because some of those things are really intractable in New York City. But you win, you get to work those issues. I would add to that his kind of go-everywhere strategy on social media. I believe and practice the same strategy. Not just on social media, but just being out and about. I think in terms of campaign tactics, I think that's smart. I think it's the right thing to do. And also, again, in recent weeks, it seems to me that he has recognized, probably thinking not just as a candidate, but as a future mayor, he's recognized the importance of finding ways to bring people together.
56:18 Kara Swisher? Meeting with Bloomberg, for example.
56:22 Kara Swisher? Biggest problem for the Democratic Party?
56:24 Speaker 01 I think it's, look, specifically, obviously, various positions or statements he's taken that would be pretty toxic here in Michigan or in a lot of other places. But I don't know, I don't want to say for the Democratic Party. Like, every Democrat, wherever they are, needs to decide what they're going to do and say that makes sense where they're from. And for us to be one party, all of that has to cohere into a bigger set of things that we care about so that we can be in coalition with each other. And I think that's okay. I don't expect to ever be on the exact same page as the most conservative Democrat, or for that matter Bernie, but there's a reason why we are in coalition together.
57:02 Kara Swisher? Yeah, so let's wrap up by talking about how you approach both these elections coming up, the midterm elections, the 2028 presidential election. You decided not to run for Michigan's open Senate seat next year's midterms. You might have been a shoe-in. Does that mean you're going to run for president again in 2028?
57:17 Speaker 01 There's no such thing as a shoe-in.
57:19 Kara Swisher? Well, you probably would have won.
57:21 Speaker 01 Thank you.
57:22 Kara Swisher? Okay.
57:25 Speaker 01 Sorry, what was?
57:26 Kara Swisher? What was the... Are you going to run for president again in 2028?
57:31 Speaker 01 Oh, I don't know.
57:31 Kara Swisher? Please don't be coy, don't, come on.
57:33 Speaker 01 I don't know.
57:34 Kara Swisher? Really?
57:34 Speaker 01 It's 2025.
57:36 Kara Swisher? That's not very long.
57:38 Speaker 01 Have you lived through the last nine months?
57:39 Kara Swisher? Yes.
57:43 Kara Swisher? That's true. I got to tell you, that was better than the Gavin answer.
57:50 Speaker 01 Oh, thank you.
57:51 Kara Swisher? That said, he said I could sleep in the Lincoln bedroom, so we know where he is on that. It's my greatest goal. Will you let me sleep in the Lincoln bedroom?
57:58 Speaker 01 Sure.
57:59 Kara Swisher? Okay, there we go. He's running for president, ladies and gentlemen.
58:05 Kara Swisher? Apparently Trump's changed it, by the way.
58:07 Speaker 01 Oh, it's a Trump bedroom now?
58:08 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
58:08 Speaker 01 Great.
58:09 Kara Swisher? There's a lot of gold happening. It's going to take a lot to fix that. So, but if not, if not, name three Democrats who you think should run for president, if not you, and then tell us their strengths and weaknesses.
58:31 Speaker 01 You're just gonna put that in front of me? Yes, I am.
58:36 Speaker 01 You put it in front of me, but I just don't think I should eat it. Come on. Look, there are great, great people in our party. Okay. Some of them are thinking about running for president. Some of the most interesting ones are ones who are not maybe immediately being mentioned as 2028 contenders, but are just really interesting people providing a lot of leadership. I mean, I'm mostly interested in people in my generation, who are, I mean, you've got folks in the Senate like Andy Kemp, who came out of a very Trumpy district in New Jersey and is now a very modern US senator. My senator right here, our senator right here in Michigan, Alyssa Slotkin, in the House, right?
59:20 Speaker 01 I think in the House, again, I was very impressed that Pat Ryan from New York was the, pretty much the first to the punch, to say if we're gonna do a shut, if we're gonna be forced into a shutdown by the Republicans, here's what we would need before we would be ready to give Democratic votes. And he named specific things that also very wisely, I think, tied together the things that we're all gonna feel in everyday life, like healthcare costs, to the militarization of our cities and how all of that is part of one big picture. So people like him, some are, you know, coded more center or more left. People like Marie Glusen Camperas is a very original thinker, who, because she has a body shop, I mean, that was her career, just has a regard for people who work with their hands
1:00:06 Speaker 01 in the trades that has always, historically, been so core to who we are as Democrats, but weirdly is not how we're thought of since this education gap has opened up. And she's very true to her district in a way that I really, I really respect, having worked with her on getting this big bridge fixed that affects her district. Others are really not talked about very much, and maybe because they're not craving national spotlight, but leaders like Gabe Vasquez in southern New Mexico, who I think is just a remarkable leader. So my point is, we have Jake Hawkenclaus, who's provided, I think, some of the most interesting Yeah. and intellectually ambitious ideas. Those are all great, Sarah McBride, Greg Sisar. Sarah McBride, another person who's been so focused. So no one that could run against you for president, correct?
1:00:52 Kara Swisher? Love them all.
1:00:54 Speaker 01 Love them all.
1:00:57 Kara Swisher? How do you like Gavin? You're just behind him in the numbers.
1:01:01 Speaker 01 Great infrastructure work in California that we did together.
1:01:03 Kara Swisher? Okay, alright, okay. Do you like all his, uh, his social media stuff?
1:01:09 Speaker 01 We all have our style.
1:01:11 Kara Swisher? Oh.
1:01:12 Speaker 01 Uh, I'm very glad that someone is doing what he's doing. It's just not, not, you know, it's not my style, but I'm glad he's doing it.
1:01:20 Kara Swisher? Okay. Um, you made history as both the first openly gay person to win the Senate confirmation to a cabinet position and first openly gay presidential candidate when you ran. But on a recent episode of his podcast, conservative commentator Tucker Carlson called you a fake gay guy. He said he wants to ask you some, quote, "really specific questions about gay sex." I would like to know your response. But I'm having moments here now, too, so.
1:01:47 Speaker 01 I, uh...
1:01:48 Kara Swisher? You've made two references you don't get.
1:01:50 Speaker 01 Both. First of all, I do not think I want to discuss anything with Tucker Carlson.
1:01:58 Kara Swisher? Okay. Same, same, same.
1:02:01 Speaker 01 Also, but I cannot think of a topic I would like to discuss less with Tucker Carlson than that. Even though I will admit some level of morbid curiosity on what in the hell he thinks his... Uh, no, actually, no.
1:02:19 Speaker 01 I suppose it's a sign of progress that the... Their idea of a conspiracy is that I'm actually secretly straight? Um, and, uh, but yeah, I just, where do you even... I don't know. We are in a post-modern...
1:02:33 Kara Swisher? Okay, I'm good, I'm good.
1:02:35 Speaker 01 We are through the looking glass now.
1:02:37 Kara Swisher? You know what you have to say? You have to say, "Tucker, I'm not interested, okay?"
1:02:42 Speaker 01 That's one way out.
1:02:43 Kara Swisher? It's worked with people who attacked me. I'm like, "Stop flirting with me." They go away really quick. Um, so I have a last... Let's end on a positive note. Uh, in your interview with Pod Save America last month, you said President Trump's dismailing of the government also presents Democrats with an opportunity to rebuild on better terms. Build back better. So, you also say arsonists present homeowners an opportunity to rebuild, which is not the best way to rebuild.
1:03:08 Speaker 01 I did not say that.
1:03:09 Kara Swisher? You did not say that? Did you sort of say that?
1:03:12 Speaker 01 No!
1:03:12 Kara Swisher? Okay, alright. You could also... Oh, I say. I am saying that, sorry, I'm reading it wrong.
1:03:21 Speaker 01 But, okay. Phoenix, Phoenix, you got this, you got the. No, no, but look, this is really important. Paint a picture of what post-Trump America looks like. I think whether we're talking about people in political practice, elected leaders, people like me, but also people like the policy scholars here at the Ford School at the University of Michigan and a whole lot of other people have an opportunity to invent some things from first principles. And I use the word "opportunity" very advisedly because it's a bad thing that we are here. But it means that a whole set of fundamental questions that we're just being assumed as asked and answered
1:04:06 Speaker 01 because we had this big rickety status quo, we actually get to start over, or have to start over. We're forced to start over. It was so wrong, like criminally wrong, to dismantle USAID. Like...
1:04:24 Speaker 01 One of the ugliest things I've seen in this parade of horribles is not one of the most famous things that happened in Washington, but it was the Secretary of State lying to Congress by saying that nobody lost their lives in that when we know from good journalism the names of some of the people who lost their lives from that. Having said all of that, talk to anybody who's been involved in international development aid, including at USAID, and they would not say that the status quo that we had in 2023 was exactly where we needed to be. So if we're gonna have to start over, it's not okay that we do, but if we do. Or the Department of Education, that they are burning to the ground. Or who knows? We might have to think about tax policy on a clean sheet because they're gonna plunge us into a debt crisis
1:05:09 Speaker 01 with all these giveaways to billionaires.
1:05:13 Speaker 01 So many things where we might find ourselves starting from scratch is there is an opportunity that rests in that. And it's to build a different way of doing things socially, economically, politically, that actually supports your ability to live a life of your choosing and to have a good life. Look, the government never decides that you're going to have a good life. But we can make it easier or harder in so many ways. And we shouldn't be wedded to all these institutions, many of them built in the 40s or 50s that we kept because it was one we had going the way they were going. But frankly, we're really showing by the 2020s that they were not well adapted.
1:05:51 Kara Swisher? So where would you start? Name one thing. Getting rid of the Electoral College, expanding the Supreme Court, ending gerrymandering.
1:05:57 Speaker 01 We should totally do all three of those, yeah.
1:05:59 Kara Swisher? Okay, what else? What's the one thing, the first thing you do? Day one?
1:06:06 Speaker 01 I mean, those three sound great. Maybe we could do those three in one day. Not really, because you need a constitutional amendment. By the way, another thing we need to do is revisit the most important. Jill Lepore has a new book about this. The most important attribute to the Constitution is that it can be amended. And we just stopped. We were like, for the last 50 years, we haven't had a substantive amendment. We used to do that, not all the time, but we used to do it often.
1:06:27 Speaker 01 For whatever reason, maybe because we were there first. Among presidential democracies, ours is one of the hardest to update. And I think that is costing us. Thomas Jefferson himself was the one who said, "We might as well require a man to wear the jacket that fitted him when he was a boy as to require future generations to live under the regiment."
1:06:43 Kara Swisher? What's your first next amendment?
1:06:45 Speaker 01 I mean, look, we'll get to the Electoral College. I don't know if that's my day one thing. I mean, really, if we had to pick one to start with?
1:06:52 Speaker 01 How about something that corrects the harm of Citizens United and the idea that money should just freely flow into our politics?
1:06:57 Kara Swisher? There you go.
1:06:59 Kara Swisher? Perfect way to end. Secretary Buttigieg, thank you so much for your time.
1:07:08 Kara Swisher? Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yokum, Michelle Aloy, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nasat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Rosemarie Ho. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're a trained daddy. If not, Tucker Carlson has some sex questions for you. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.
1:07:49 Speaker 02 Kate holds the key to every brand asset your business has ever made. She's the only person who knows the difference between teal turquoise and the correct company blue. But she's going on vacation. Luckily, before the company falls into design disarray, you realize you can put Kate into Canva. Save every color, font, and logo to a brand kit everyone can access. And Kate can vacation happily in the knowledge that no one will ever use Comic Sans. What will you canva today?
1:08:20 Speaker 03 Support for today's episode comes from Delta, official airline of the National Women's Soccer League. Traveling is basically magic. It creates opportunities, it fosters understanding, it expands horizons, it connects people and communities to each other and to their own potential. Those are the values that drive Delta. With up to 5,500 daily Delta and Delta Connection flights to more than 300 destinations on six continents, Delta is committed to helping you explore your world. Whatever gives you the travel bug, Delta is here to help you get there. Visit delta.com for more info. Delta, wherever the journey takes you.
1:09:06 Speaker 03 Are you a pet owner?
1:09:08 Kara Swisher? Every six seconds, a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill over $1,000. Always an unwelcome surprise. That's where Fetch comes in. Fetch is the most complete pet insurance for dogs and cats, according to consumeradvocate.org. You get paid back up to 90% of vet bills at any vet in the US and Canada, with claims paid back in as little as two days. Go to fetchpet.com/save right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.com/save.
Previous Joe Manchin on Trump, the Dems & the Filibuster Next Did ChatGPT Encourage a Teen Suicide? The Parents Suing OpenAI Say Yes Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated