Eating Throughout History (Reheat)

What did dinosaur eggs taste like? In what shape would Jane Austen likely have had her dessert served to her? What does one of the world's leading paleontologists think of the paleo diet?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

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• 0:42Dan Pashman?

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• 1:27Dan Pashman?

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• 1:34Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone, it's Dan here with another Friday reheat for you. And all this month, we are digging deep into the darkest recesses of our deep freezer to pull out super-old episodes, all in honor of our 15th anniversary, which we are celebrating this month. And today, we're gonna pull one out that is near and dear to my heart. I guess maybe in part because I grew up in the New York area, so I grew up going to the Museum of Natural History as a kid. Of course, you always look forward to seeing the dinosaurs and the dinosaur skeletons and the giant whale hanging from the ceiling. And so much stuff there is just iconic. And so, it was so exciting for me back in 2013, when they did a food exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History. And I got to go there and meet two of the curators and tour the exhibit and do a whole episode about it. Now, sadly, Dr. Eleanor Sterling, one of the curators of the exhibit who I spoke with

• 2:19Dan Pashman?

  in this episode, passed away last year. She had an incredibly interesting life and career, which we should hear a little bit about in this episode, but I encourage you to look her up and read more about Dr. Eleanor Sterling. All right, enjoy the show.

• 2:38Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman, and we're about to challenge your assumptions about consumption and drop a sporkful of knowledge on you because we're obsessively compulsive about eating more awesomely, and because if history has taught us anything, it's that the hosts of food shows need a lot of catchphrases. Let's go ahead and jump right into today's topic for mastication and rumination, which is eating throughout history.

• 3:05Dan Pashman?

  The American Museum of Natural History here in New York City is currently doing an exhibit called Our Global Kitchen: Food, Nature, Culture. It is a really fun, very interesting exhibit that traces the role of food really throughout history and throughout so many different cultures. And there are multimedia components. There's an area where you can sort of stand over a screen and have a POV, look at, as if you are cooking one of four different meals from all over the world. There are areas where you can smell different scents from around the world, and there's a real working kitchen. And I was lucky enough to interview the two curators at the exhibit. We walked through, we had a lot of fun, but also got a lot of very interesting and useful information about eating throughout history that I want to share with you now.

• 3:50Dan Pashman?

  So let's go to the tape. Here I am at the Museum of Natural History.

• 3:55Dan Pashman?

  So here with me first is Dr. Eleanor Sterling, co-curator of Our Global Kitchen: Food, Nature, Culture, and the director of the museum's Center for Biodiversity and Conservation. Hi, Dr. Sterling.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 4:07Dan Pashman?

  May I call you Eleanor?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Sure thing.

• 4:09Dan Pashman?

  All right, thanks. And then we also have here Dr. Mark Norrell. He is co-curator of Our Global Kitchen: Food, Nature, Culture, and chair of the museum's Division of Paleontology. Hi, Dr. Norrell. Hi. And can I call you Mark? Of course. As chair of the museum's Division of Paleontology, does that mean you oversee the dinosaur bones? Yes. I would think that whenever you walk into a new group of people and you tell them that's what you do, you probably, it's probably hard for you to escape the room after a certain period of time. Is that fair to say? It's a burden.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  It depends on the room.

• 4:42Dan Pashman?

  Have you heard about the paleo diet? And what do you think of it as a paleontologist?

• 4:46Speaker 02

  I've heard of it, but you know, I tend to just eat what I think is good for me.

• 4:53Dan Pashman?

  Because I have a friend who was on that diet and then he threw a football and his arm broke in half.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  I don't think you can relate one instance to anything.

• 5:01Dan Pashman?

  It may have been a pre-existing condition.

• 5:05Dan Pashman?

  But in general, what do you think of the idea of eating the way people did in that era?

• 5:11Speaker 02

  To me, eating is all about like what tastes good. I try to eat very healthily, but also I want to eat what tastes good. So I'm not going to sit there and eat a bunch of like, you know, green stuff and like hardly cooked tough meat on a table just because somebody did it 10,000 years ago.

• 5:27Dan Pashman?

  Right. There is such thing as progress, I suppose.

• 5:31Dan Pashman?

  Should we walk a little bit? Sure. All right. So Mark, what's your favorite part of the exhibit here?

• 5:37Speaker 02

  I don't know. My favorite part is probably the end because I really am sort of, I enjoy the aspect of the way that, you know, culture and food come together. I mean, I'm here because I like to eat. Okay? Eleanor wants to save the world. I like to eat.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  So that's sort of this unholy thing that we're in.

• 5:58Dan Pashman?

  And Eleanor, I should tell my listeners, you are a vegetarian.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  That is one of my features. Yeah.

• 6:03Dan Pashman?

  I'm sure there's other things about you we'll find out over the course of this interview.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  I would hope so.

• 6:08Dan Pashman?

  Let's go into the kitchen. One of the great things about this exhibit is that there's an actual working kitchen here, which I think is very exciting. Oh my goodness, what are they making here? This looks like chocolate.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  I hope it looks like chocolate. It is chocolate.

• 6:19Dan Pashman?

  I have one. I will. So Mark, you, well, you guys have both been around the world for your work and I'm sure eaten in some pretty exotic and in some situations, difficult circumstances in the middle of the Gobi Desert or in the middle of Latin America or Africa. I mean, are there sort of some universal rules of the road that you can share for eating in adverse circumstances?

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Eat what the locals eat and you're less likely to get sick.

• 6:45Dan Pashman?

  Eleanor?

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I try to eat things that are peeled and cooked.

• 6:48Dan Pashman?

  What's the food like in the Gobi Desert, Mark?

• 6:49Speaker 02

  We eat incredibly well because we're hundreds of miles away from the nearest towns. We provision really well and that a number of the people on the expeditions are good cooks. And we make homemade gnocchis. We make...

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Pizza.

• 7:05Dan Pashman?

  Is that traditional Mongolian fare?

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Not at all. Traditional Mongolian fare is you find the oldest, greasiest sheep you can find, boil it, and then take and skim all the fat off the top and spread that across a piece of stale bread.

• 7:19Dan Pashman?

  That actually sounds pretty good. What do you do with the rest of the sheep?

• 7:22Speaker 02

  You eat it over days and days until it gets too maggoty to be able to actually choke it down.

• 7:28Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so is there a point at which it has maggots, but it's not yet too maggoty?

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, because then you dry the maggots out. You put them in a pot and then heat it up really slowly and they all crawl out. And then you put water in it, floats them off.

• 7:44Dan Pashman?

  That is very useful information.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  It's a traditional technique from the old days.

• 7:51Dan Pashman?

  So I should describe here. So we're in an actual working kitchen that's part of the exhibit here at the Museum of Natural History. And every couple of weeks, you guys are doing a different theme, different types of foods that you're going to be cooking. I was here a few weeks ago and there was cornbread. Now it looks like we have chocolate truffles, is that right?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  It's chocolate in general. Today just happens to be truffles, but they get inventive here.

• 8:13Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, and so if folks come here, you'll get some free food in addition to a very great exhibit.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Well, we had to do that. I mean, you come to an exhibition, you're learning about food, you're reading about food, you're talking about food, you get hungry.

• 8:29Dan Pashman?

  So Mark, you discovered an oviraptor, I should say a fossil of an oviraptor nesting on a brood of eggs.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:37Dan Pashman?

  Are you able, in your research, to have any idea what dinosaur eggs might have tasted like?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, we eat them all the time. We just call them birds now. So that, I mean, the eggs of these animals like oviraptor in microstructure and everything else have exactly, the shells are identical to the eggs of modern birds. So an egg of Tyrannosaurus would have tasted just like a chicken egg, just bigger.

• 9:03Dan Pashman?

  So let's go over here and check out this part of the exhibit. This is a meal that we might have seen between, it says 58 B.C. to 29 A.D. So Eleanor, I want you to tell me a little bit about this. We should add that there is actually ambient sound being piped in to set the scene of the period of time that we are in. So if you hear that sound, friends, that will help to transport you. You hear that laughter?

• 9:27Dan Pashman?

  That's people laughing right around the time of the birth of Jesus. Eleanor, tell me about what we see before us, please.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  So this is a meal that the first Empress of Rome, Livia Drusilla, might have eaten. And what we tried to do was to figure out what was on the table regularly so that people could sit on one side of the table and feel like they were eating a meal with famous people around the world. So we have some things from the Mediterranean that people might feel are pretty obvious, like olives. And there's something that looks a little bit like a pesto sauce, some kind of a green leaf sauce. And we have some eggs that are stuffed. And then we also have sea urchins, which might be a surprise for people to think about that as a delicacy on a plate in Rome.

• 10:14Dan Pashman?

  Let me ask you guys a question that applies to this particular part of the exhibit and the exhibit in general, which is, in putting this exhibit together, were there any tips, techniques for cooking or eating, recipes, dishes, ingredients, that you happened upon or were reminded of that have changed the way you eat or brought something back to your palate that you were like, "Oh, I forgot that I liked that thing," or "I'm gonna try eating it the way they ate it 2,000 years ago."

• 10:42Speaker 02

  No. I'm a creature of habit. Like, I'm open to new things and...

• 10:48Speaker 01

  He had the same meal every day for the entire several years that we worked on this project. Every day for lunch.

• 10:54Dan Pashman?

  What was it?

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Sushi.

• 10:56Dan Pashman?

  And is there anything from another part of the exhibit, Eleanor, that you've done that's... Oh, you're pointing over here. I want to see if there's something else that's had an impact on your eating habits. Oh, we're now moving over to the time of Kublai Khan, 1215 to 1294, a movable feast. And I should mention just quickly that if people hear the sound of liquids being poured or dishes being cleared, we are now in Kublai Khan's living room, essentially, and those are the sounds of the meal being served. So people shouldn't be confused by that. And what were you gonna say, Eleanor?

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Well, just that when Mark and I were trying to think about what we thought were really fundamental...

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Happenings in the food world, we realized that fusion was key. And a lot of people think about Cuban Dominican, Chinese food as being this amazing new thing in the world, that we have these fusion across cultures. But as Mark will tell you, this particular exhibit we're in front of was a place where fusion was happening all across this empire.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Everything that we eat is fusion cuisine. I mean, whether it's you're ripping it off from your neighbor, or it's across the planet.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  I think that makes you think about food in a different way. And it makes me eat differently by appreciating the depth of experience that the food has had before it showed up on my plate.

• 12:11Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, we learn how to make ice cream when you don't have electricity. Something Eleanor did when she was at an uninhabited island in Madagascar. Stick around.

• 12:26Speaker 03

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• 12:33Dan Pashman?

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• 13:14Dan Pashman?

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• 14:02Dan Pashman?

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• 14:32Dan Pashman?

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• 15:17Dan Pashman?

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• 15:42Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back for another Sporkful reheat. I'm Dan Pashman, and I have a very big, exciting announcement for you. This past November, I took a group of Sporkful fans and some others on a special trip across Italy to eat pasta, to retrace many of the steps I took on my own research trip for my cookbook. And we had so much fun and ate so, so well. We ate spaghetti alla sasina in Bari. We took a cooking class with Silvestro Silvestri in Lece. We ate with Katie Parla in Rome. And the folks at Culinary Backstreet who organized the tour, they Added some stops that I didn't even know about that were new to me, that were incredibly delicious and also fascinating. Point is, it was so great, we're doing it again. This November, we just opened up spots. It's a small group, so space is limited. Bottom

• 16:24Dan Pashman?

  line, come eat pasta with me in Italy. For all the details, go to culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful. Now, back to this week's reheat.

• 16:36Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so, so we're gonna wander over here to Jane Austen, summer 1810. We're now in Kent in southeast England, and this exhibit talks about ice cream before electricity. How did they do that, Mark?

• 16:50Speaker 02

  It just requires ice. And if you think about the whole problem of ice, you know, like you're in southeast England, it's the middle of summer. I mean, it's like, the weather's miserable there all the time, and stuff is really miserable in the summer. And so where are they gonna get ice from? Well, they might be able to get it from Scotland, or they might be able to get it during the wintertime. They have to keep it in sheds or barns, and they have to keep it covered with hay or something else that'll last through the summertime, and that they're able to make these like great desserts, like ice creams. So, that it was a real sort of ultra gourmet, ultra high-class, very exclusive, very expensive dessert before the advent of electrical coolers.

• 17:26Dan Pashman?

  But how could they even keep ice for any period of time, even in a barn or somehow a storage facility?

• 17:30Speaker 02

  You'd be surprised, even underground, how long ice lasts. I mean, if you like, make, you know, carve a block of ice that's three feet long by like, two feet by two feet, it'll last, just by virtue of its size, in a well-insulated area for months.

• 17:44Dan Pashman?

  I don't suppose you made any ice cream in the Gobi Desert?

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Never ice cream.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  I made ice cream on an uninhabited island in Madagascar in the middle of the summer.

• 17:53Dan Pashman?

  Oh my god, please tell me that story.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, we had fishing boats that were nearby, and they wanted to come on shore to be able to get some fresh water from our waterfall. And so, we said, sure, fine, no, no problem, come on. And then they felt so sad that we were there in the middle of this heat, heat, this uninhabited island in the heat, I was living there for a couple years, that they brought this block of ice on land. And I was so excited to have cool, I, a cool water, I was so thrilled. But it was this huge block of ice, so I had, you know, a glass of ice water, and I had another glass of ice water. And then I was like, now what do I do with the ice?

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Gin and tonic.

• 18:25Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, right.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, we didn't have any of that. But we did have eggs and we had sweetened condensed milk and we had a fire and we had some vanilla because it was Madagascar and so we did was we made we made this cream sauce and then we put it inside an algae and water bottle and then we we found this big can from an oil can, an old oil can, and we filled that full of ice and rock salt and we rolled it up and down the beach. We made ice cream.

• 18:52Dan Pashman?

  And how did it come out?

• 18:53Speaker 01

  It was more of a smoothie than an ice cream, but it was delicious.

• 18:56Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess beggars can't be choosers, right?

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Hey, it was the best ice cream I had all that year.

• 19:02Dan Pashman?

  Were you with locals there?

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:04Dan Pashman?

  Had they had ice cream like this before?

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 19:07Dan Pashman?

  What was their reaction to it?

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Well, first they thought we were crazy. They're like, why are you using the eggs in that way and the eggs are really important and why can't we just have these for breakfast or for over over rice for dinner and but after we convinced them that it was a really good use of all of those those resources, they were pretty excited. It was, you know, it was hot, so they were they loved the flavor and the texture.

• 19:26Dan Pashman?

  God, I wish I could have been there to see. I mean, to see an adult have their first I mean, it was fun for me to watch my daughter eat ice cream for the first time at age one or whatever, but to see an adult who has a lifetime's worth of experiences eat ice cream for the first time, I mean, it must have been exciting to share that experience with them.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Well, we spent a lot of time talking about why it was happening because, of course, I cooked something, made it hot and then I and then I didn't actually make that thing cold directly. I just surrounded it with ice and then rolled it back and forth and so that transformation was something we spent a little bit of time in Maliazi trying to explain.

• 20:00Dan Pashman?

  But in the end, it sounds like it turned out well?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Yep, absolutely. It was well worth the effort.

• 20:03Dan Pashman?

  So we can turn back to Jane Austen's ice cream here. The ice cream is actually shaped like a column. I'm not going to try to guess whether it's Doric, Ionic, or...

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Can't see the tops, you don't know.

• 20:16Dan Pashman?

  Right, okay, thank you, Mark, for not making me sound stupid.

• 20:22Dan Pashman?

  Did they actually serve ice cream in shapes like this back then?

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was very popular all through Napoleonic times, as well as up into Victorian times to serve things in these really elaborate molds like this.

• 20:34Dan Pashman?

  Because vertical food was a big trend in fancy restaurants for a while, but I guess even that concept wasn't so new after all, huh?

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  So the one thing that's cool, though, about ice cream, one of the reasons why we have this whole exhibition is because I love ice cream.

• 20:48Dan Pashman?

  Basically, this whole Natural History Museum exhibit is an elaborate ploy for Eleanor to be able to talk about ice cream, is that right?

• 20:54Speaker 01

  That's correct. But no, what was fun is thinking about, you know, we feature this summer ice house in England, but then Mark can tell you about the fact that these ice houses were actually found in China in the 1300s. I mean, these ice houses were spread throughout the world, in fact, and people were trying to solve that same kind of problem over and over in different places.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Even before that, during the Tang Dynasty in 700 AD, that there was melons that were taken from the oasis towns in Central Asia because of the Dianshan and Pamir Mountains and stuff. Kunlun Mountains are so close and they have glaciers. And they would pack these melons in ice and put them on the backs of camels and then take them to Beijing and the Samarkand on the Silk Road in things that are, look just exactly like modern coolers. You know, that they were, instead of lined with aluminum or plastic, they're lined with lead, but they had insulation in them with camel hair and everything else and stuff. There's like loaded in the back of camels and taken across the desert.

• 21:56Dan Pashman?

  It almost makes you wonder, I mean, what's left to be invented? I guess it helps that we keep forgetting that we've invented these things and that we can keep being impressed with ourselves.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Well, I don't think we were inventing anything. I mean, we're just improving and tinkering with. Even things like, I mean, freeze drying, okay? Like, freeze drying was a big thing back in the 70s. Well, we got to freeze dry all these foods and everything because it makes them last. Well, in Tibet, where I work sometimes, people take yak meat and they'll take and they'll cut it in really thin slices and then they'll lay it out on rocks in the middle of the night. And just overnight, the ice crystals will just form on it. In the morning, they just dust them off and they're completely dry. So it's like one night, non-solar drying, just by virtue of it gets so cold, it just draws the water out, so.

• 22:38Dan Pashman?

  And then how long does it last?

• 22:40Speaker 02

  I mean, they can just keep it all winter in their houses then and things, and it's just dry, so it's like jerky.

• 22:49Dan Pashman?

  It really drives home the universality of food and culture and some of the video presentations that you guys have I found really powerful.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we do that throughout and in the growing section, for instance, not only do you see how people create food and eat the food, but it's really how do they find something in nature and figure out that it's edible. I mean, there's some things we eat in the world that are really curious. They have poisons, they're funny looking, they don't look edible to me, and yet someone in our deep past figured out that they were edible, figured out how to process those foods, and really it took the ingenuity to identify those as food sources and then created them. That's pretty neat to think about.

• 23:29Dan Pashman?

  One of the ones I've always wondered about is popcorn. Who was the first guy or woman who dried out some popcorn and accidentally or possibly purposely dropped it into a pot and cooked it? I mean...

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Well, actually, I mean, the first corn that was ever domesticated was popcorn. It thought to be popcorn by a lot of anthropologists and archaeologists. So like, you know, it could have been totally serendipitous. I mean, somebody just could have had, said, "What is this weird plant?", throw it in the fire, and all of a sudden it goes boom, boom, boom, boom, and then all that whatever they had laying around the campfire started eating it, and they said, "Well, we can eat this." And it could have been as easy as that, so...

• 24:05Dan Pashman?

  And I would think that there's probably been a lot of trial and error over time, and there's probably some people who said, "Hey, let's try eating this", and didn't end up as fortunate as people who ate popcorn. Is that fair to say?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  That's fair to say. Cassava is one of the main roots that a lot of people around the world eat, and it is full of cyanide. So the first person who tried to eat that without preparing it probably didn't fare well.

• 24:26Dan Pashman?

  But I'm so interested about, I wish I could talk to that, the first person who said, "Well, what if we cook it? What if we do this? Maybe then we won't die." I mean, that's a pretty risky field to be in.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  It is, but you know, I think, as Mark said, a lot of it is trial and error. A lot of it's just an accident. You know, something happened, a cassava fell into the fire, somebody stepped on it, it got, you know, it got processed in some way, and suddenly it was edible. I mean, who knows? But we did have millions of years to work on this.

• 24:56Dan Pashman?

  Let's move over here and I would love if you guys could describe this part of the exhibit to people who obviously can't see it, but I think this is a really cool, cool thing here, this, this market.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  This is a market in the Americas, an Aztec market in Mexico from 1519, so just before the Europeans came, before the Spaniards came. And you have a sense for the kinds of foods that are found here. So you get a sense for what was domesticated in the Americas, tomatoes, corn, squash. Some of them have made their way around the world. Imagine some of those cuisines without the tomato, but really a tomato only showed up a couple hundred years ago in the Italian cuisine. So we try to play with that a little bit. What did foods look like here in the, in Mexico before the chicken was here, before wheat came over, before really there was any cheese in, in the Americas.

• 25:44Dan Pashman?

  Wait, Mexican food existed before cheese?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  You betcha.

• 25:47Dan Pashman?

  And Italian food existed before tomatoes?

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 25:51Dan Pashman?

  Mark, what is your technique for eating corn on the cob?

• 25:54Speaker 02

  I'm more the typewriter style.

• 25:58Dan Pashman?

  Typewriter style, interesting. I actually like to hold up the corn vertically on the plate and take a knife and chop off the corn niblets, because I feel like when I do it typewriter style, it gets stuck in my teeth.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:12Dan Pashman?

  Did the Aztecs have a solution to that problem?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  I did my graduate degree at Yale and I worked in the basement of one of the buildings where the anthropologists had their collections from Machu Picchu. And so we had, we were surrounded by skulls all the time that we were doing our research. And you would look up and you'd see these amazing skulls that had these abscesses that were clearly from having had corn stuck in their teeth and then the, you know, something rotted and then the sugars came out and it began, it created these awful, horrible infections in their bone.

• 26:45Dan Pashman?

  If only they'd listened to my podcast.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:48Dan Pashman?

  Dr. Eleanor Sterling, thank you so much.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 26:51Dan Pashman?

  And Dr. Mark Norrell, thank you.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 26:56Dan Pashman?

  The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer

• 26:59Speaker 03

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 27:00Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer.

• 27:01Speaker 04

  Andres O'Hara.

• 27:02Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is.

• 27:03Speaker 05

  Jared O'Connell.

• 27:04Dan Pashman?

  The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producers are Nora Ritchie and Colin Anderson. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 27:43Speaker 06

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• 28:06Speaker 07

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