Joe Manchin on Trump, the Dems & the Filibuster

For years, Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia was a Democrat with a habit of voting against the party line. Not surprisingly, that was something many Democrats despised and Republicans relished. His resistance cost Democrats big legislative wins, including President Biden’s $1.75 trillion Build Back Better Act in 2021. After being called a DINO (Democrat in Name Only) for years, Manchin flirted with a presidential run on the No Labels ticket and officially dropped the “D” to become an independent in 2024, shortly before leaving office. Kara talks to Manchin about his new memoir, Dead Center: In Defense of Common Sense, his reasoning for occasionally siding with the other side of the aisle, his defense of the filibuster, and why he thinks independents might have a better chance in 2028. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube (full episodes available now!) Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  I don't know if you know this, but my family's from West Virginia.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  No, I don't.

• 0:03Kara Swisher?

  You sound like my grandfather.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  When they play Country Roads, you sing the whole thing?

• 0:06Kara Swisher?

  I do. I know the entire song.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 0:20Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is former West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin. Manchin was elected in 2010 as a Democrat, and in 2024, after announcing he would not be running again, he changed his affiliation to independent. It wasn't a huge surprise. Manchin has been called a "dyno," Democrat in name only. He had a long history of not voting the party line, and in fact, his resistance caused Democrats some big legislative wins, including President Biden's $1.75 trillion Build Back Better Act that made him a target of Democratic vitriol and a friend of many Republicans, including President Trump.

• 1:01Kara Swisher?

  In his new memoir, Dead Center: In Defense of Common Sense, Manchin lays out his reasoning for siding on occasion with the other side of the aisle. Interestingly, if you look at the cover, he's way to the right, so there's that. I thought it was a really interesting memoir. He's a very complex person, and actually, he is making sense in that we need to find a way to find common ground. Although, at the same time, I think he probably enjoyed being in the center so that he could use that center position for power. It's really complicated, so I want to talk to him about his book, about his defense of the filibuster, and why he still thinks there's an opportunity for bipartisanship in Washington. It's an important question in these increasingly divisive times.

• 1:44Kara Swisher?

  Our expert question this week comes from Congressman Greg Cassar of Texas, Chair of the Progressive Caucus. Manchin is a Spitfire, so this should be good. And in case you want to watch instead of listen, we have a full-length episode of the show on YouTube now as well. So stay with us and maybe check us out there.

• 2:08Speaker 02

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• 3:56Kara Swisher?

  Hi, Senator Manchin.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Hi, how are you, Karen?

• 3:58Kara Swisher?

  Thank you so much for coming on, on. I really appreciate it. So, let's start with the news. Last week, conservative, right-wing activist Charlie Kirk was shot and killed at the university rally in Utah. It was the latest in a spate of politically motivated violence, including the assassination of a Minnesota lawmaker and her husband, the arson attack on Pennsylvania Governor Shapiro, the assassination attempts on President Trump, and the assault of Nancy Pelosi's husband. And you remember, are you right about these bipartisan dinners with DC lawmakers at your houseboat, almost heaven, as in West Virginia? To be honest, it doesn't, that seems a little quaint at this moment. As someone who said he's, quote, "dead center," what's your solution for a populace that has become so polarized?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, you have to understand how the system works in Washington. Congress, 535. First of all, we don't know each other. So, you're not building relationships. Very few people live there anymore. So, they come in on Monday night at 5:30. You come in, you vote, and then, boom, you go your own way. Tuesday and Wednesday, if you have committee meetings, you'll run into them. They're always having fundraisers. All 435 congresspeople are in cycle every year. It's two years, but they start campaigning the day after, okay? So, they're always busy. The Senate, you have about a third of the Senate that's always in cycle every two years. So, with that being said, Karen, then, to know each other and to be able to socialize

• 5:25Speaker 01

  and all that. So, I would always try to find some time to invite a few down to my boat. It's a big trawler, and everyone seems to enjoy it, but I always had a kind of a rule that you need to bring both sides. So, if we're talking to three or four Democrats, we have to find three or four Republicans. I don't want to have a partisan, just a partisan get-together. Doesn't prove anything. And we were successful at that and had a good time. And I saw just that little effort we were making. People were talking. People were doing amendments together on bills that they would have never done before. So, all of that's very possible, but you said, "What's wrong with Washington?" Is it going to change? Let me just say this to you.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  One of the most difficult times in my career is being in the US Senate from 2010 to 2025 was the Sandy Hook shooting, the massacre of these little children. That went through me. I just still can't get over the fact that so many of those parents couldn't even have an open casket for their child. People thought we could have at least had what we call background checks, just a reasonable approach to something, saying we're doing something. And that horrific tragedy, like this is a horrific tragedy, Charlie Kirk and his family, whether you agree, whether you paid attention, whether you even knew, but to have a young

• 6:51Speaker 01

  man who was willing to go to campuses, speak his mind and ask for debates back and forth, right, wrong, or indifferent, okay? But to be taken out like that, it's just unbelievable to me. Just the visceral, a visceral attitude that people have towards the political dynamics today is just something I've never seen.

• 7:12Kara Swisher?

  So, talk about that because this is something you've tried to say, if only we went to the center. This is not happening. I mean, do you put it at any one place?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  We were talking, Karen, and I think the way you could probably fix it is, first of all, I tried to pass a piece of legislation, just an ethical violation if we campaigned against each other. If you know someone, it's hard to say no to your friend. And when you do say no, it's almost like with a tear in your eye. I don't want to give you the news that you don't want to hear as much as you don't want to hear it. So, it hurts me too. That's not fair. It's easy to say no to someone you don't know. When I first got to the Senate, I could not believe it, November 15th of 2010. And I get there, and I thought there would be kind of camaraderie, everybody's having a great, working together, they might have a differences debate on the floor, then go about your way. That wasn't it.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  You were expected to go raise money every day and make phone calls. And the money you had in your PAC, Political Action Committee PAC, was supposed to be used to defeat anybody on the other side. So if you have an R by your name, any D that's running, you're against.

• 8:20Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Okay? Even if it's your friend, or vice versa, if you're a D. In my case, being a moderate centrist, I guess, conservative Democrat, which was most West Virginians were. I said, now, wait a minute. You want me to raise money? And when someone's running against my friends, whether it be Lisa Murkowski, or Susan Collins, Mitt Romney, whoever it may be, you want me to give that person, whoever it may be, just because they have a D by their name, money to defeat my friend?

• 8:50Kara Swisher?

  Well, yes, so...

• 8:51Speaker 01

  And I says, I won't do it. I never did do it.

• 8:53Kara Swisher?

  But understanding the situation and then doing something about it is one thing. For example, speaking to all Americans from the Oval Office, President Trump had an opportunity to quell the violence and reach across the aisle, but he didn't. Listen to this.

• 9:06Speaker 05

  It's a long past time for all Americans and the media to confront the fact that violence and murder are the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree day after day, year after year, in the most hateful and despicable way possible. For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world's worst mass murderers and criminals. This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're seeing in our country today. And it must stop right now.

• 9:47Kara Swisher?

  So I will confess, I was shocked. I'm not shocked by much of what Trump does, but I thought, oh, good, okay. He's going the right direction. And then it shifted, and he got even more divisive on Fox. Just for people who do not understand, the ADL report that came out early this year, right-wing extremists were responsible for 76% of the politically motivated deaths, which is a large number. And the demonization, which does take place on both sides, is from the very top of the ticket there.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Let me say this, if I can care. I know Donald Trump, President Donald Trump. The first two years, I was probably the only Democrat that he really spent any time with because I come from a centrist background. He always said, "Well, you know, Joe, you're so moderate in your views. Why don't you just be Republican?" And I says, "Mr. President, why don't you just still be a moderate, centrist Democrat?" Right, right. So we had a big laugh about that. I said, "The party shouldn't determine who you are as a person." And I've never been a big party person, but I've always respected both sides. And West Virginia, they were always kind of conservative and moderate in their thought process.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  So I know President Trump, and I can assure you, that's not the President Trump that you see on that, when he speaks, and the cameras and the public. When you're with him, he's gracious, he's easy to work with, you can talk to him, it's reasonable, on and on and on. So all I'm saying to everybody that's elected official, our democracy is based on a representative form. That means we'll govern ourselves and we'll choose who we want to govern for us. That's who we elect. And with that being said, I've always said, whoever your president, whoever your elected official, they're responsible to respond to all of us. They're representing me. West Virginia's looking to me.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Am I kind of speaking their language, speaking for them, or trying to make sure people understand who we are in West Virginia? I think, and I've said this, we all have better angels in us. I'm hoping President Trump's a better angel because it starts at the top. The better angels speak to him, speaking to me, and speaking to elected officials, that this has got to be ratcheted down. This visceral, making it normalized, this attack, and the way you speak about people. I came from a little town, Farmington, West Virginia, a little coal mining community. I was held accountable and responsible for my words and my actions.

• 12:17Kara Swisher?

  Right, except that wasn't that.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  No, I'm just saying that's-

• 12:20Kara Swisher?

  Saying he's nice behind the scenes, this is publicly-

• 12:23Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, I know there's another side of him.

• 12:26Kara Swisher?

  Okay, where is it?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  I'm hoping to see it.

• 12:28Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  I think the public needs to see it, and if not, then I'm wrong, okay? I'd like for him to. I like to think that about everybody. I would have thought that, you know, we could have passed the Manchin-Toomey bill after the massacre at-

• 12:41Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Okay, very easily. All we need is 60 votes. We had 56 votes. It was a no-brainer. 80% of the public wants background checks so we know who's buying guns and if they have a right to have one.

• 12:52Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Couldn't pass that because of politics. And someone says, "Do you think it's going to change now because of the murder of Charlie Kirk?" I said, "If I couldn't change it with 20 children getting massacred, I'm not expecting it." And it's not going to change unless the politicians, the elected officials, the representatives that we have in this form of democracy that we have, start speaking in a tone that we would want to be spoke to. If you don't, don't expect anything different. If this visceral atonement continues, you're going to have what you have now, maybe more of it. It's horrible.

• 13:26Kara Swisher?

  So, how do you get back to that? Shouldn't, I mean, for example, the president should be trying to defuse the situation instead of inciting violence. Hope for his better angels isn't exactly a plan.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  It's not exactly. It's the only plan I've got right now. I'm hoping that all of us, Mr. President, and every senator, and every congressional person, every local official, every governor, tone it down from the standpoint, "I might not agree with you, okay, but I don't have to call you names. I don't have to call you out and think it's all your fault." The system has allowed it. Let me give you another example, Karen. After this horrible tragedy, last couple, two or three days, I've heard acquaintances and associates talking about, "They defriended this person." I defriended 10 people. I'm not big on social media, so anything I can tell you is this. I know with a click, you can eliminate that person being your friend. I never grew up that way.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  If you and I were friends and there was a problem, I'd come talk to you, say, Kara, I just don't agree with what you're saying. Did you really mean this? Or somehow we can work this problem out? Today, you don't have to confront that. A click. So you want to look at the social media? I think basically, we should hold the social platforms accountable for this visceral language that allows everything to happen. And then, Section 230 of the federal code protects them. You can't go after them. That's wrong. AI coming out now? We have to hold people that allows this type of rhetoric accountable for the consequences.

• 14:56Kara Swisher?

  That's what Governor Cox was talking about, the cancer that it was.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  He talked about the cancer, but we've all identified that. But then, he needs to pass it in his state, then.

• 15:05Kara Swisher?

  So why has that not been passed?

• 15:07Speaker 01

  I have no idea.

• 15:07Kara Swisher?

  This is something I talk about for decades now.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. We tried. We have tried, but the lobbying is so hard from the tech industry. They said, oh, no, if you do that, then we will not have the audiences that we have. We will not have the attraction that we have now that you can almost do or say anything. I said, you know, we've always been held accountable. There used to be truth in advertising that way many years ago. You couldn't say something within accurate. You'd be held accountable and liable as one of the broadcasters of the three major broadcasters back then. That all changed. So, things have just gotten out of hand. And, you know, you've got to hope that can we still maintain this experiment called self-governing?

• 15:55Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 16:11Speaker 02

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• 16:42Kara Swisher?

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• 19:01Kara Swisher?

  Let's talk about your background a bit. In Dead Center, you write about how both your father and your grandfather were small business owners. You worked in their retail stores until well into your 30s. In 1982, you ran for office for the first time. In 1988, you founded your own business, a way school brokerage company called Intersystems.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Intersystems, yeah.

• 19:17Kara Swisher?

  Talk about how they shaped you from an entrepreneurial point of view. How it influenced you when you were governor and then Senator of West Virginia.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I basically started when I got involved in the political arena called retail government. Retail government means I treat you as a constituent, as a valued customer. I want your business. I want you to be happy with what I give you, the services, and I want you to tell your friends about it, so I can help more. In business, the word of mouth is the best advertising, and I wanted people to come to government, being your partner, not your provider. And I've always said that. In a democracy, it only works if we all participate. If you're not participating, you're not willing to get involved. I have so many people, Cara, I can't even talk about. Would you run for public office? Heck, no, I never get involved. I don't want people beating me up, and I don't want people talking about me.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  I don't want my whole past being flashed in front of me. I said, that's a small price to pay for the great country we live in and the life you have. Someone's got to sacrifice. It doesn't work if you don't. So if you're not willing to run, are you willing to help her? Recruit people to get involved, or you're just going to sit on the sidelines and say, "Someone else will do that."

• 20:27Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  And if we get more people sitting on sidelines, if we get more people expected to get something out of government than they're putting into it, it won't work. So people said, "I think we might be at the end of this experiment." "I hope not. We've been through difficult, challenging times before, and we came out of that. And there was a time I thought we wouldn't." So those people who think it's dire right now and will never make it, we will.

• 20:48Kara Swisher?

  Did you, you think it's dire? How do you, where do you assess it, comparison?

• 20:51Speaker 01

  No, I'm saying you hear people talk about it all the time.

• 20:52Kara Swisher?

  Yes, you do, but I want to know how you think.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Oh, not at all, because I've seen much worse, okay? And I've seen this rebound.

• 20:58Kara Swisher?

  So let's talk, let's talk first about how we got here. In 2010, after being governor of Western Virginia for five years, you ran for a seat vacated by the late Senator Robert Burden, won. It was two years.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  I didn't want to, I didn't want to do it, but I did it.

• 21:11Kara Swisher?

  You did it. So it was, it was two years into President Obama's first term as governor. You fought against the Affordable Care Act. You admit in the book you were wrong on that one.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  As governors, we were always homogenous. We were always together. If you went to a National Governors Association meeting, you couldn't tell who the D's and the R's were. We all had education problems, we had road problems, we had serviceability, we had all the different things. We had education. We had to work through these problems, and we helped each other. That bill started dividing us as governors, because they started getting all these phone calls from Washington. "You're a Democrat, you've got to support this. You're a Republican, you've got to be against this," and on and on and on. And I'm, we're talking and trying to make sense out of this, and I said, "Well, let me just listen to what Max Vakas is going to basically give us a rundown of what the bill does."

• 22:03Speaker 01

  And he spoke to us, and I says, "Max, let me make sure I understand. You're saying that everyone has to buy insurance."

• 22:08Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Okay? And we have to buy the product you're offering, you would have no choice. It is either buy this, or you've got nothing, or you'll be fine. Well, Max, that might work in Montana, but I don't think that's going to work in West Virginia. If you're forcing us to buy something without letting us shop it and telling us what we're going to have to buy, and if we don't do what you tell us, you're going to fine us. I don't think that would be the best way to, to approach this. Well, they made some modifications, but we know it came out. So I wasn't. I wasn't

• 22:37Kara Swisher?

  for it.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  against it or for it.

• 22:39Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  I wanted, once we had it, it helped a lot of West Virginians who had nothing. It helped the rural hospitals because they were starting to get payment now they never got before. They were getting free care. And so I was hopeful that would be, and I want to make something better. And I still think we can improve.

• 22:55Kara Swisher?

  It's worked out in West Virginia.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  It's helped a lot of people in West Virginia.

• 22:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  But those who are still working, it gave, they didn't have the choices they had before. And that was the problem, okay? But we're better for it than we were without it. And can we improve upon it? Absolutely.

• 23:12Kara Swisher?

  But during that time period, West Virginia did, as you noted, turned red. What do you think is responsible? Obama, what, what happened?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  I can tell you exactly.

• 23:21Kara Swisher?

  Okay, go ahead.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Without even mincing words.

• 23:23Kara Swisher?

  For losing working class voters.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  They lost them. How did you lose all the coal miners? How'd you lose all the factory workers? And you know, our state of West Virginia, a lot of your home, homegrown family members are from there and still have roots there. They were hardworking people, never asked for a whole lot. I said, I was, I'm a Democrat all my life. Why was I Democrat? Probably because my grandfather was, and my parents were, because they were very appreciative of what FDR did back and give them a chance when things were tough back in the depression. And then with that, we always thought the Democratic Party would always be there to help a working family, to help someone basically have safe working conditions, and have benefit packages, okay? That was it. They weren't getting involved in our life to tell us what we should think about, what we should do, and we're wrong if we don't.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  So I was asked a question in 2014 by Elizabeth Warren, my friend. We're friends, but we, we just differ a lot, okay? And there's nothing wrong with that. She said, Joe, what happened to the West Virginia Democrat? That's when the state flipped totally Republican for the first time in 80 years. I says, Elizabeth, really not a whole lot. They want to know what happened to the Washington Democrats. She says, what do you mean? And I says, well, the Democrats that I knew and grew up with really believe, in their heart of hearts, right now, that the Washington Democrats treat them as if they were returning Vietnam veteran. You're not good enough, not clean enough, not green enough, not smart enough. You just don't need me anymore. Leave me behind.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  The war on coal, you heard about that when Obama got elected? He wanted to switch everything to renewables. There's nothing wrong with what he wanted to do because he was elected as the President of the United States. But you just can't leave a whole generation, society, or, you know, a state behind. There was nothing to replace what he wanted to switch. There was nothing left. There was no jobs coming. And towns were shuttered. And I'm thinking, my God, this is... You're putting unreasonable demands. You're putting targets that the technology's not there for us to meet. So it really is a war. That started it, and it went down from there.

• 25:31Kara Swisher?

  Why didn't you change your political affiliation at the time?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Well, probably if I should have, if I would have thought about... I'm thinking, well...

• 25:37Kara Swisher?

  I mean, in your campaign ad, you did shoot a copy of Obama's cap and trade bill.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  It was a horrible cap and trade. Let me tell you, cap and trade over in New York. Cap and trade basically charges you for every amount of carbon content you have in products you buy. Okay. What do they do with the proceeds? And I said, well, all you're doing is putting all your money in your social welfare reforms without fixing the problem, but you're penalizing the problem. So I said, I'm not going to be for that. I said, if you want to fix something, let's do it.

• 26:05Kara Swisher?

  Why not change your party affiliation? Why didn't you?

• 26:07Speaker 01

  I just thought for sure Democrats can't be that far off the Richter scale. They've got to come back. These are people I grew up with and knew. And one by one, they were getting just annihilated. And people started changing registration. And I told Elizabeth, I says, Elizabeth, I can tell it to you this way. You don't want to hear what I'm going to tell you, but I'm going to tell you. The Democrats that I know and grew up with in West Virginia truly believe that the Democratic National Party in Washington, D.C. spends more resources, time, and effort on able-bodied, capable people that don't or won't work than you do on those who do. I can't tell to you any straighter.

• 26:45Kara Swisher?

  Sure, but you say coal miners never ask for much, but federal funds make up more than half of West Virginia's budget, for example. They do get some amount of money, correct?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Coal miners do?

• 26:55Kara Swisher?

  The state itself, in general, gets.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Oh, no, the state, my goodness, we're a tremendous recipient of federal funds.

• 27:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Because of the poverty that we have.

• 27:03Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  And hardships and all that. So you can blame it on so many different things that you can. You know, I'm, you know, we're a state that was basically discovered during the Civil War and taken advantage of every day after. Absentee ownerships, a lot of the gilded homes in Rhode Island were based off the backs of West Virginia land and coal and minerals, things of that sort. So we didn't get the return that other states have gotten, whether it be Detroit with the automobiles and things of that sort. Yeah, we got hit hard.

• 27:31Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. So what happened was you often then became the swing vote in the Senate. And after Trump was elected in his first term, there was talk that you were, under consideration, become Secretary of Energy. So did you seriously think about joining the Trump Cabinet?

• 27:46Speaker 01

  He called me up when they first got elected in 2016, because he's looking, everyone says you have to have a bipartisan administration. So I went up to New York, went up and visited with him, and we sat there and we talked. And he has other people around, he had Reince Priebus and different people, and we were talking. And I said, "Mr. President, if you and I are going to go down this and consider, let's working together." I said, "What I would want to know is what you expected from that office. So let's say it's energy. What would you expect from energy? Okay? And then allow me to put a staff together that would produce. If we didn't produce, throw us out." Well, I could tell you, he hadn't been acclimated to how this works.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  And by that time, Reince Priebus, who was the head of RNC at one time, he saw Joe, he says, "No, no, we'd have to work that out." And of course, I knew the answer, and I started laughing. I said, "Reince, I understand. You have to have your people there to make sure that office runs the way you want it, not the way I would want to do it." And I said, "Mr. President, listen." In all honesty, I says, Whoever my president, and you're my president now, you just got elected. I want you to succeed, and I'll do everything I can to help you. But I will speak truth to power. And there'll be times that I just cannot vote for things that you would like, but I'll always give you a reason why. He seemed to accept that, but then, you know, as you know, he's gotten more demanding a little bit than other people, but yeah.

• 29:06Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you'd be in a different position right now.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  It would have been very difficult.

• 29:09Kara Swisher?

  So one of the things I noticed in the book is, you know, you said often you didn't leave the Democratic Party, it left you. You heap a lot of praise on Republicans in your book, but, and mostly have disdain for Democrats. For example, you-

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Well, let me just tell you what you're saying.

• 29:21Kara Swisher?

  Go ahead.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  I know what you're observing.

• 29:23Kara Swisher?

  No, I'm just asking, because it's in the book. I mean, let me just-

• 29:25Speaker 01

  What's in the book, basically? I only knew one party. I never caucus with the other party. And if I was so enamored with them, I'd have joined them. Why didn't I join them? Because I didn't think the party system, they've gotten so absolutely separated to the point where they're not representing the American people. You've got to be selling your soul to one side or the other. I don't agree, and I told him that. I said, "You have to have a secured border. You have to have, basically, laws, and the rule of law means everything. And when you do the crime, you pay the fine, you pay the price." Democrats began lax and lax and lax on this, and I've told him, "You can't do that." They've never talked about, one time, Karen, did I ever hear, 15 years I was there, from

• 30:08Speaker 01

  the Democrat's side, had ever talked about the debt of the nation. When I got there, it was 13 trillion. It's growing now to 37.

• 30:15Kara Swisher?

  Largely Donald Trump, but go ahead, go ahead.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Well, no, no, it was all, it was all sides. It was George Bush, George Bush-

• 30:21Kara Swisher?

  Yes, it was, but if you actually added up, Trump is responsible for 25% of it. But go ahead, compared to 47 other presidents, but go ahead.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  No, no, it all happened. Hold on, hold on, you're wrong.

• 30:31Kara Swisher?

  All right.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  You're wrong from this standpoint. After Bill Clinton-

• 30:35Kara Swisher?

  Bill Clinton balanced the budget.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Bill Clinton, it was basically Erskine Bowles and John Kasich. And then with Newt, and you had Newt, and you had the president. They worked this thing out. It started spinning off, basically, surpluses. We were going downward. We were at 6 trillion. And after we had 9/11, and two, we had two wars that we never paid for, declared war first time, under George W., and then we had two Bush cuts, tax cuts. She shot up like this.

• 31:01Kara Swisher?

  Yep.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Under Obama, it kept going.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  Under Trump, it went quicker in a four-year period. I agree. And now with what you're talking about now, I was totally opposed to what they were doing. And both, both, both parties, Joe Biden wanted to be BBB bill and Donald Trump wanted to be BBB bill. Both of them are horrendous on the debt. No one's talking about it.

• 31:23Kara Swisher?

  But in this book, you said that Kamala Harris's position on eliminating the filibuster was the reason you didn't support her presidential campaign last year. But you also, when you write about Republican under Mitch McConnell extending the nuclear option to push through Supreme Court nominees, you also blame the Democrats for starting it.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  I blame the Democrats because I begged Harry Reid not to do it.

• 31:41Kara Swisher?

  Right, correct.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  I voted against Harry Reid when he tried to do it.

• 31:44Kara Swisher?

  Where is the responsibility for the loss of bipartisanship as someone who's dead center?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Oh, it's on both sides. I don't see anyone reaching out. The only thing I felt more comfortable that the Republicans would hold on to the filibuster. But now I'm seeing, and I've talked to some of my Republican friends, they're like encroaching a little bit from here, nibbling away here, nibbling away here, trying to basically bundle people that have to be confirmed, confirmations and all that. And I told Harry Reid back in 2013, I said, "Harry, why don't you just go talk to Mitch?" And Mitch, and right now, you're all upset. The Obama administration's upset because they can't get some of their people approved, which is what Trump's people are right now, to get their staff and cabinet. And I said, "There's a thing called will and pleasure.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  If I become governor, if I become president, I want to bring a team together. They're going to come under me and they're going to leave when I leave. Their term of office does not extend one minute longer than when I leave. Why can't they just be, after you do a vetting of them, FBI background check, and if they're all have good standing, you might not like them, you might not like their politics, I got elected representing to represent the country or my state, let me put my team together, if not fill us all out. That's will and pleasure. That should be a 51-vote threshold. You shouldn't have to go through all this ring and row." And it's almost, basically, prevent a president or any executive from putting their team together?

• 33:14Speaker 01

  You want to cripple them that they can't run the government so it'll look bad. You don't play politics that way. And I promise, I asked him to do that. He said, "Well, it's because they don't talk. There's no relationships." If they'd have done that, we'd have never had, you'd have never had all your judges. You'd have never had the Supreme Court. But when he did the circuit and district judges, you knew damn well, as soon as Mitch McConnell got a hold of it, being the iron horse that he is, he was going to go for the Supreme. And he did.

• 33:42Kara Swisher?

  So let's dig into the filibuster, which you called the Holy Grail and the soul of the Senate. The framers didn't want a supermajority requirement to pass bills. They tried that with the Continental Congress and it failed, which is why the Constitution calls for a simple majority to pass bills in the Senate. In fact, Alexander Hamilton specifically warned against the supermajority requirement in Federalist 22. So as the filibuster was developed, was mostly used by defenders of slavery and segregation, Robert Byrd filibustered on the Civil Rights Act for 14 hours. In the book, you repeatedly lament our political gridlock, but the filibuster is arguably the primary cause of that gridlock. Talk to critics who point out this isn't the system the founding fathers intended.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Founding fathers, well, let's ask this. There's 13 colonies, right? 1789. Who came out of there, had to explain to the states what we have, what kind of government do we have? We've always heard the famous asking Benjamin Franklin, "Do you have a republic, young man, if you can keep it?" But someone had to tell, big old Massachusetts, which was a key factor in that period of time, economic force for our country. And then you had, of course, you had Pennsyl-- you had a big four, you had New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. Someone had to tell them that we're going to have a bicameral, we'll have a house, have, you know, people's house and representative based on how many, what the population is and one person is on, you know, have equal representation.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  And then what about this other one called the Senate? And he said, "Well, the Senate's going to be a little differently." He said, "Every state's going to have two representatives." Two? You're telling me, and I'm a Massa-- I'm a senator from Massachusetts, that basically Rhode Island and Delaware, those little teeny places that have no economy whatsoever to speak of or people, that they're going to have the same right that I have, can offset my vote? Yeah, I don't want the big guys beating up on the little guys. This is going to be the United States, not to divide it. So a Senate had basic-- a senator always had the ability to speak forever. Take the time, and time is precious on the floor of the Senate. So if you tie things up, that's the filibuster. There was nothing written, but there was nothing to stop a senator from speaking until 1917.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  That's when the cloture votes came in during World War I. When we had isolationists, didn't want to send any, any goods to our troops, to our allies. And they had to get over that. So I think it was a 67 vote threshold at that time. Then it went down to, I think it then went to 60. Anyway, it came down to try to get it more, more workable. But it basically, we found out as we went through this that it kind of put us together. It didn't let you just retreat to your corner and just fight to your death. The House already did that. And I think it was, it was George Washington, it says, you know, the House is going to be like a hot cup of tea. You've heard that many times, I'm sure. And the Senate will be like a saucer that cooled the tea off so we can drink it. And that was the whole purpose of it. So didn't have to have any written.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  It was basically the decorum of the Senate, what we were supposed to and what was expected.

• 36:38Kara Swisher?

  It's come to a conclusion, but now that's sort of shot.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Well, still, it's not shot. Just think where you'd be right today. Think where the Democrats would be if I would have voted to get rid of the filibuster. Where they would be today with Donald Trump having a trifecta.

• 36:52Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Even though he's doing a lot of things with executive, he's not changing rules or putting rules and laws into place.

• 36:59Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  So the rules he's putting in can be undone as quickly as next. You put a law, it takes a little bit longer.

• 37:05Kara Swisher?

  It's kind of a good segue. Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours from Representative Greg Cassar, Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Let's listen.

• 37:14Speaker 06

  Hi, Senator Manchin. I'm Congressman Greg Cassar. And my big question is not about a progressive issue. It's about an issue that should be bipartisan, and that is redistricting. In my home state of Texas, Donald Trump just rams through radical mid decade redistricting. We have a ballot measure now in California on redistricting. It could spread to states like Florida, Indiana, Missouri. And my question to you is after a ban on gerrymandering passed its way through the House of Representatives, it never can make its way through the Senate. And so my question is, do you regret not carving out an exception in the filibuster or doing whatever you could to make sure that a ban on gerrymandering could make its

• 37:58Speaker 06

  way through the Senate and get signed into law? Do you regret that decision?

• 38:02Kara Swisher?

  Good question.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Do I regret not getting rid of the filibuster? Absolutely not. It's the Holy Grail.

• 38:07Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  We have to work through it. And the bottom line is these gerrymandering, what goes around comes around. It's horrible what the president has asked Texas to do. Now what California is in retaliation is doing and all this. I think there are some states that basically use nonpartisan commissions. There are some states that even use computers. There has to be a way forward on this thing here. I mean, if you're asking me, the biggest problems that we have right now, it's basically the amount of money in campaigning. The amount of money that people can put in. The Citizens United was horrible, horrible, horrible. And also, basically, is primaries. You know, right now, you have a strong president, with you have a trifecta, if you will, the House, the Senate, and the executive branch.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  And you have all that going for you, and you have no checks and balances to where you can say, wait a minute, that's not what pushed this through. I understand where he's coming from. But if you had open primaries, you wouldn't be able, the president couldn't target, or the party couldn't target someone who's not a good enough Republican or Democrat, and primary him. The open primary or ranked choice voting, which my dear friends Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins would never get elected as Republicans if it wasn't for that.

• 39:23Kara Swisher?

  So do you regret not figuring a way, though, to ban gerrymandering by making an exemption to the filibuster or not?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  You can't make exemptions like a little bit of pregnancy. We tried. We looked at everything we could. What I like to see the filibuster is you have to have talking filibuster. You have to go down the floor and explain. You have to have maybe 10 other senators that'll agree with you that they think is a serious problem. That would make it more concrete. It would give more credence to it and credibility. And just, you can do reform like that. But you say, well, I can't carve this out. That's like, okay, Harry Reid tried to carve it out. He carved out the US, the Supreme Court, right? How long did that work?

• 40:03Kara Swisher?

  So how would you deal with banning gerrymandering at this point? Like, everybody has a nuclear weapon, essentially, depending on the states.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Well, the states, you know, there's still states' rights. The 10th Amendment gives states their rights. They're not going to be, basically, forced to run their government like the federal does. I think that's the whole purpose of it, you know? Keeping a government to where the states do have some rights. As a former governor, I was very, very concerned about how we ran our elections. I had to answer to the people. So the people of Texas, the people of California, all of them should be speaking out. This is wrong, because what happens today will be worse tomorrow. It's not going to any better. But saying that we're going to outlaw and ban it, you know, I wish you could. I think it's wrong. I think you have to have independent commissions. But that's for the states to decide. The states are responsible for their elections, not the federal government.

• 40:52Kara Swisher?

  So in an interview with the New York Times opinion writer, Michelle Kyle, before Trump took office, you sounded optimistic that Senate Republicans wouldn't just fall in line with the president. But they've greenlit almost every nominee, no matter how underqualified. Based on these first eight months or so, Republicans in Congress weren't acting like they represent an independent branch of government, which they are. Do you think you got it wrong? And if they aren't willing to-

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 41:17Kara Swisher?

  The idea that they would be a counter. They wouldn't just fall in line, that they would make the right decisions. Do you think the Congress remains an independent body?

• 41:27Speaker 01

  I worry about the independency of the three branches: judicial, executive, and legislative. I thought there was an awful lot of people that I know are of very strong will and very smart in the Republican side that I was hoping for would have been able to speak respectfully truth to power. Okay? And that's why I've come to the conclusion you almost need term limits anymore.

• 41:49Kara Swisher?

  Yes, I would agree.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Term limits, I had a lady one time, Carol, that told me, in southern West Virginia, it had to be 200 people at a town hall. And I was speaking, and she asked me a question. Joe, I wish you were for term limits. So I tried to explain these to her. Had to be 10, 10 or more years, 15 years ago when I was governor. And I told her why I was not for term limits at that time, thinking what I'd kind of always thought and heard, you have people with expertise. Now, here I was as a governor. I'm term limited out in two terms, eight years, two fours. But I thought, well, you know, you lose expertise in the legislative process-

• 42:22Kara Swisher?

  Sure.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  ... and all the knowledge and everything. And she looked at me and she said, "Just think, Joe. If there were term limits, maybe we'd get one good term out of you." Karen, it doesn't get any better than that. You know what? I says, I got, I'm sorry. I agree with you. And I've been for term limits ever since. Because it would give that legislator the courage to be independent for that last two year term, or the last six year term, if you're a senator.

• 42:46Kara Swisher?

  You can Tom Tillis right now.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. You'd have that, you, you get that courage a little bit earlier, knowing this is your last. I really, truly believe it's needed probably as much as anything. And it might cure some of the problems of gerrymandering and all these other things.

• 43:01Kara Swisher?

  So another thing is the unitary executive theory. The idea that the president has a sole power over the executive branch has become a huge talking point. President Trump has an expansive interpretation of presidential power. Has that surprised you, based on your previous experience with him?

• 43:15Speaker 01

  It concerns me from the standpoint, thinking that one person is above the law.

• 43:19Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  And I think if you go back to our founding fathers, or the Federalist Papers, and this and that, they looked at everything they hated about King George. They looked at everything they hate about a monarch. We'll make sure we didn't do anything that'll lead us down that path. They were pretty good for about 200 years. Last 40 have been pretty rough. We're testing it. You asked about something a little bit earlier, about the Republican Party. If you recall, you remember how soured the relationship between Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump was the first? It's because they had, I think it was 54 or 53 Republicans, I'm not sure, during that term. And Donald Trump kept saying, hey, listen, we've got a majority of Republicans, just pass what I want. And Mitch McConnell says, no, it doesn't work that way.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  And Republican senators, almost to a T, said, absolutely not, we're not getting in the filibuster for that. No, we're not going to. And it just basically made just open warfare. I was up there, and the berating that they received from the White House at that time was unbelievable. But after the second term, it's, I was hoping for the first pushback, let's put it that way. And hopefully, well, they haven't gotten rid of the filibuster, but they're allowing some of these things.

• 44:32Kara Swisher?

  Do you think Trump is acting like a king? You mentioned King George with all these executive orders.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  I think he knows there's still guardrails. He can't, he can't, there are certain things. The checks and balances are still there. The judicial branch, basically, okay, is still there. I still think there's some people that you're going to see that could be surprising. And this midterm election could change everything in a demeanor of what we're doing and how, how much get up and go they got.

• 44:56Kara Swisher?

  So West Virginians seem to be all in on Trump still. In a recent poll, a third of them said President Trump had done the best job as president in their lifetimes. It's clear he's been a big supporter of revitalizing the coal industry. In April, he passed four executive orders that basically gave the industry what it asked for. But West Virginia has more issues than coal. Infrastructure in the state is crumbling. Your state is ranked as third most dependent on federal dollars in the nation, as we talked about. Early this year, Doge cuts halted millions of dollars in deliveries to food banks in Trump's tax and spending bill, including big cuts to education and Medicare, Medicaid. All this could really hurt the state. Is there going to be a shift in West Virginia? Do you see that happen? You just talked about the midterms.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Well, we'll see. You would like to think that people usually vote their pocketbooks or vote their services, one of the two. And with that being said, these changes, it amazes me that if you're going to do a piece of legislation, when President Biden wanted to do BBB, and I thought was an overreach and expansion that we could never, ever afford. He and I spoke one time, and I told Mr. President, I says, you know, you and I are about the same vintage. You're a little bit older, but we're not that far apart. And I'm from the school John Kennedy asked not what your country can do for you, what you can do for your country. To me, that's what's calling me to public service. I think I can do something, and I wanted to. You pass this piece of legislation, Mr. President, you're going to change the psychic of the nation. How much more can my country do for me?

• 46:22Speaker 01

  I couldn't buy into that, okay? Then you come along and they want to do the BBB, the other big, beautiful bill, and not looking at basically what it's going to affect and how. But also, it doesn't take effect until after 2026 election, until 2027. Well, wait a minute. If you're passing a piece of legislation that's so needed, don't you want it to take effect immediately to help all the people? They were afraid of the pushback. So I don't know if that's going to resonate with people that what's going to hit you in 2027 happened because it was voted on in 2025. I've never seen anything like it, but people haven't comprehended it yet, I don't believe.

• 47:06Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 47:22Speaker 07

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• 49:49Kara Swisher?

  I want to finish up talking about third parties because that's really where you're going because the centrism hasn't really worked. Everyone's gotten even more partisan, I would say. So in 2024, you'd already announced you weren't running for a third term. You decided to drop the D and register as an independent. You joined Kirsten Sinema, Angus King, and of course Bernie Sanders. All of you are very different politically, right? You and Bernie Sanders seem to agree on one thing, that more people should run as independents. Now, third party runs for president have never been easy or successful for that matter, but the hurdles have only gotten bigger. We spoke earlier about the increasing number of closed primaries and gerrymandering. You had been toying with the idea of running for president as independent in 2024 with a no labels movement. Is there any way you could see an independent party rise?

• 50:32Kara Swisher?

  New parties have formed during partisan times, that's for sure. But could you see yourself doing that?

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Well, let's look right now what's happening, okay? What's the largest? The nomination of people that are participating in voting, who, what, what do they belong to? The Democrat Party, Republican Party? Right now, it's about 23, 24% registered Democrats, maybe 26%, 27% Republican. The largest is no party affiliation, which is what I belong to. So you have people that want to belong to the grand old party that's not so grand anymore. You know, like people like to be, with the Democrat Party, used to be responsible and compassionate. They don't seem to be as responsible as they were before. So you have that mixture in the middle. Is it right? Yeah, I think it's right. I'd like to see an American independent party. Scare the bejesus out of the two for the gone so far.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  We never went to the extremes. We've always kind of governed between the 40-yard line. 40 and 40. Now we're clear down to the 10-yard. And basically, it's just way out. I mean, it's gotten to the point where the ying and the yang are, you know, driving it.

• 51:41Kara Swisher?

  But that said, dead center seems dead at this point.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Dead center from the standpoint, I'll tell you one thing, there's more people that believe like, I think, like I do, more of a centrist, looking at what's the best idea. I want people that'll put their country before their party. If you're going into the political official being a fame and fortune, then you're chasing for your own personal goal. You're not chasing it for helping, basically, the country. And so term limits maybe give us more of a clarity to that. Maybe we can fix some of the other problems. But you throw away all the guardrails. And I know they keep going back to the filibuster. You start throwing away what few guardrails we have. You've got nothing. You've got nothing that'll be flip-flopping back and forth, no different than countries around the world who have no standing.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  We don't care about the finances of our country anymore. If we lose the reserve currency of the world being the US dollar, we've got serious problems, serious, serious financial problems. Playing with crypto the way they're playing with? It's wrong. I think dead wrong for our country and for the world.

• 52:44Kara Swisher?

  So how do you solve that? I mean, I could quote Yeats to you. I mean, things fall apart. The center cannot hold. Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. The blood dim tid is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned. How do you get to the center then? If you're in the dead center and it feels dead?

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Let me ask this. Do you think that, I mean, what I was looking at and what I saw a couple, two, three years ago, and we kept seeing all the way up until we really got hot and heavy into this past 2024 election year, that every poll showed the people were ripe, for a centrist. They were ripe for that. They were ripe for, let's say, a person who had been associated as a Democrat, one had been associated as a Republican, to put a team together and basically commit to one four-year term. We're going to bring our country back together and look at both sides, the best of both sides, trying to bring that back to the middle. Okay? Would that have worked? It looked like it could in theory. It looked like it could when polling was done. But when you start trying to get on

• 53:42Speaker 01

  the ballot, the way the system has been weaponized, the duopoly that we have right now, the Democrat model and the Republican model, is based all in fear and natured. So trying to get in on the ballots was something that was almost impossible. When it came down to it, closer and closer to making the decision to run or not, could we put a team together? Who would that team be? We were getting, looking at different people that have interests and had the ability to do it. But then saying, wait a minute, I don't want to be a part of a team that's going to be looked as a, as basically a spoiler. I don't want to be going down in history that because of you being involved, or me being involved, or anyone else, that this party, basically, through the election, one way or the other,

• 54:24Speaker 01

  you get blamed for it. I mean, if there could have been a way to have truly, a legitimate way to get on this platform and debate, and said, does this make sense to you, what we're doing, you know?

• 54:38Kara Swisher?

  So what, for 2028? Now it seems like, don't worry about spoilers, right? Don't, it's spoiled.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I think from that standpoint now, 2020, it'll be a whole different.

• 54:48Kara Swisher?

  So it seems to me, most people in the center are just giving up. That's the problem.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  I haven't.

• 54:54Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  That's all I can tell you now. I'm not going to change. I know you were asking, Kara, why did I leave the Democratic Party or why I thought it left me? I just couldn't go home to the people I represented and having a D, a Washington D on my name and saying, I'm representing you, when they don't believe that the National Democratic Party is representing a rural, poor state. I just got to be honest with you. It's kind of hard to have that conversation.

• 55:22Kara Swisher?

  You also didn't put an R on there.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  No, I couldn't do that because you know what? I didn't like what you're seeing now. I didn't like a lot of that. I think I can work better from the center than I could having a D or an R because I think there's some things that both sides do. I want the Democrats to be that compassionate they've always been, but responsible. You can't put roadblocks in front of me, put so many restrictions on me, I can't even breathe. The Constitution says you have the right to the pursuit of happiness. Me taking the oath of the Constitution is going to protect you have that right for your pursuit of happiness. You find your happiness anyway, and I'll do it. Even if it's something I don't believe in, just don't make me believe I'm wrong if I don't believe in what you want.

• 56:05Kara Swisher?

  So is there anyone you see out there?

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Oh, I see a lot of good people I think could.

• 56:10Kara Swisher?

  Name one from every party.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  What do you mean from every party?

• 56:15Kara Swisher?

  From two parties right now. I wish we had more party records. I know you're a secret Mom Donnie fan, but go ahead.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:22Kara Swisher?

  Talking to people about affordability. You talk about affordability.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  That's an interesting one there, but we'll see what happens. The thing of it is, is that, you know, you have good people. You have a Josh Shapiro, who's been able to govern in a kind of a split state. You got Andy Beshear in a state that really leans more Republican. I've got a little bit of preference towards governors, whether they be Republican or Democrat, because they've been able to function. Gretchen Woodmar seems to be like a very rational person. I don't know Gretchen that well. I know. Josh, and I know Andy better than I know a-

• 56:56Kara Swisher?

  And a Republican you would pick?

• 56:58Speaker 01

  The Republican, there's some, you know, there's some really interesting people out there in the Republican. I'm not in that circle as much as I was in the Democrats before, but some of the governors they have out there have been very rational, reasonable. Mitt Romney was always a person I could work with very closely. Lisa Murkowski, some of these people here are unbelievable to work with, and Susan Collins, who is up right now. I pray for the sake of the Senate, Susan Collins wins again. I don't think anyone's going to be able to replace a Susan Collins, the way she approaches the problems and when you look at the facts. And that's why she's so good.

• 57:34Kara Swisher?

  So, final question. Would you say you're optimistic in the middle, or pessimistic right now?

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Well, I'm always, I've been an optimistic person. I'm a realist also, and I understand how difficult it is. But I'm optimistic that basically we've been able to reach and pull ourselves out every time we've had challenges. And again, we'll go back to how we started about the angels, you know, the special angels that we all have in us. I think everyone has good in them. I don't think you go through the process of getting elected in the public eye today and not have the desire to serve, you know. In West Virginia, I've always said, a person can shake your hand, look in your eye, and see your soul. So it's hard to BS them. And I'm hoping they still have that gut instinct now. We've got to get people with character, good people that really want to be there for the right reason. And if

• 58:23Speaker 01

  they won't self-govern themselves, then put the term limits on them. That would be the best way.

• 58:27Kara Swisher?

  All right. I really appreciate it, Senator Manchin. Do you call yourself Senator Manchin?

• 58:32Speaker 01

  I'm Joe.

• 58:33Kara Swisher?

  Joe.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Let me give you, I'll give you one little-

• 58:35Kara Swisher?

  All right, sure.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  -little tidbit to everybody. When you meet a person who's had a title, or still has a title, because of their position, being elected, appointed, whatever they may be, if they introduce themselves by their title before their name, 99% of the time, you're going to have a problem. They think more about the power of the job than the person they've become, or the person they were.

• 58:55Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. That's a very good tip. All right. Thank you so much.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 59:05Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. Just a reminder, from now on, our full shows will also be available on YouTube. So check out our channel, On with Kara Swisher. Sorry if I'm wearing t-shirts, but that's what you're gonna get. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro- Moselle, Kateri Yokum, Michelle Aloy, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you know all the words to "Take Me Home," Country Roads. If not, the beast is slouching towards Bethlehem, waiting to be born. So get out of the way. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit Follow.

• 59:50Kara Swisher?

  Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

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