The Conservation President and the Adventure That Almost Killed Him (Part 1)

Following a crushing political defeat in 1913, former president Theodore Roosevelt turned to what soothed him the most - the wild and pushing his limits within it. Roosevelt is a complicated historical figure - one who is remembered in teddy bears, for his legacy of public land protection, as the country’s youngest and most influential politician as well as a man who held racist ideals - but not many remember him as a man who lived for adventure and pioneering exploration. When the opportunity presented itself to participate in an expedition into untouched Amazonian jungle to map an unexplored river - he was willing to die for it. For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesListen to Watch Her Cook on Apple and Spotify! For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to this week’s partners! IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping. AG1: AG1 is offering new subscribers a FREE $76 gift when you sign up. You’ll get a Welcome Kit, a bottle of D3K2 AND 5 free travel packs in your first box. So make sure to check out DrinkAG1.com/npad. Quince: Use our link to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Ollie: Use NPAD to get 60% off your first box of meals when you subscribe today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those ice lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So, switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  This season, we're turning Designer Shoe Warehouse into Designer Shoe Wonderland, the most wonderful place to step up your gifting. Wrap up the perfect shoes for them and for you because when you give shoes, you're really giving joy. And who doesn't have more joy on their wish list? Good things come in shoeboxes, so find the perfect pairs from gift-worthy brands for you and yours, in stores and online. DSW, let us surprise you.

• 0:59Danielle LaRock?

  Life, a complex, multifaceted experience we are all participating in at this very moment. It is a journey of self-discovery where we grow, learn, and search for meaning. We are given tastes of joy but are also faced with hardship, sometimes simultaneously. Life is often referred to in seasons, stages, chapters, or periods, often as a way to indicate there will be highs and lows and as a way to delineate dawns and dusk. The people we encounter, the circumstances we find ourselves in, and the cards we are dealt will all come and go, each having their moment and meanings in our existence. If those moments leave us

• 1:44Danielle LaRock?

  with heartache, anger, or a sense of "what now" in their wake, we all tend to turn towards something to cope. That something takes on many forms: supportive community, self-care, and spirituality, just to name a few. But for so many around the world, across all timelines, nature has been the universal healer. Nature provides a wealth of tangible benefits that are all deemed essential to sustain our bodies, like water, food, and clean air. But the unseen benefits are equally as beneficial to the spirit. When the worst happens, many of us find ourselves walking into the wild in search of a balm for the wounded soul. But nature isn't just a nurturer.

• 2:29Danielle LaRock?

  She is also an indiscriminate killer. And all those seeking her open arms for salvation should be wary of her ability to destroy.

• 2:41Danielle LaRock?

  Welcome to National Park After Dark.

• 3:04Danielle LaRock?

  Well, hello, everyone. I am certainly very excited for this episode because we've been talking about it a bit in the background, but that intro just really has me ready because I already know it's a survival story and that intro just really solidified that.

• 3:22Danielle LaRock?

  I know, I'm creeping into your territory a little bit today. This is going to be a multi-parter. How many parts? Who really knows? I'm hoping for two.

• 3:33Danielle LaRock?

  But before we get started, hello, everyone. My name is Danielle.

• 3:37Danielle LaRock?

  And I'm Cassie.

• 3:38Danielle LaRock?

  This podcast called National Park After Dark,

• 3:42Danielle LaRock?

  where we tell stories about the outdoors and national park and public land settings. And today we are throwing it back to the early 1900s for a survival story for sure. But before we do so, we also, somebody's like, you guys really don't value free time, do you? And that's true.

• 4:03Danielle LaRock?

  Cassie and I started a little something on the side.

• 4:07Danielle LaRock?

  Yes, we have a whole new project that is coming out on April 9th. It's called Watch Her Cook, and it's a new podcast that we've been working on for a while.

• 4:14Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, we're like, hey, we're comfortable with the title of podcaster now, so we're going to lean into it and start expanding. So yeah, we started Watch Her Cook. It's going to be premiering in just a few days. And if you are really loving the stories that we touch upon or cover in this show about women, you're really going to love Watch Her Cook because it is all about women in. Vastly different roles that extend far beyond the kitchen and that are not just based in the outdoors. We're going to be creeping into other territory. That's going to be all encompassing. So if you're interested in that, you can find us at Watcher Cook Podcast on Instagram and keep up with stuff there and look out for the first two episodes on April 9.

• 4:55Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, well, let's get into your story because I have been chomping at the bit to hear it.

• 5:01Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, well, as we enter April, April is a big month because not only is it mostly airy season, which you know, I love if you know me, it also celebrates two other things that are near and dear to our hearts, and that's National Park Week and Earth Day. So in a nod to National Park Week coming up, today's episode is centered around someone who I think we all grew up learning some things about, but probably not all, and about somebody who is remembered in the National Park world with regard for the legacy that he left behind for our public lands. Theodore Roosevelt has been remembered for a myriad of accomplishments. He is truly someone who lived

• 5:43Danielle LaRock?

  multiple lives. He was a naval strategist, a rough rider, an author of over 30 books, a cattle rancher, a Nobel Peace Prize recipient, and of course, a politician and the youngest president to take office here in the United States.

• 5:57Danielle LaRock?

  And he has a national park named after him.

• 6:00Danielle LaRock?

  He does. Yes, he does. Almost every American child has had a childhood toy named after him in the form of the teddy bear. And his unique combination of political, military, intellectual, and personal traits contributed to his enduring legacy as one of the most influential presidents in United States history. One of his longest lasting accomplishments, many outdoor enthusiasts are well aware of, his large contributions to public lands. He was titled the Conservation President, and many argue his truest and longest lasting legacy is that of conservation. And we'll talk a little bit more about it further into this story, but Roosevelt's earliest and longest lasting passion was the environment and his first

• 6:45Danielle LaRock?

  True calling wasn't that of a politician, but that of a naturalist. Coming of age during the turn of the century and at a time of a serious shift in industrialization and technological shifts, he bore witness to the price wild places were paying in the name of all of this advancement. He has many speeches and quotes on the importance of wildlife and public land protection and his love for recreating in the outdoors, but I just wanted to pull two to kind of set the tone here. Of all the questions which can come before this nation, short of the actual preservation of its existence in a great war, there is none which compares in importance with the great central task

• 7:26Danielle LaRock?

  of leaving this land even a better land for our descendants than it is for us. And the second one is, quote, "We have become great because of the lavish use of our resources, but the time has come to inquire seriously what will happen when our forests are gone, when the coal, the iron, the oil, and the gas are exhausted, when the soils have still further impoverished and washed into the streams, polluting the rivers, denuding the fields, and obstructing navigation."

• 7:55Danielle LaRock?

  These quotes are so interesting because I know from what you're saying that they're from Theodore Roosevelt Roosevelt and that they happened in the early 1900s, but you could tell me that someone said those yesterday and I would be like, that's very timely and that makes sense.

• 8:10Danielle LaRock?

  Yep. It just goes to show that we've been facing these problems and these conundrums for well over a century. And it's been at the top of mind for a lot of leaders and still continues to do so. According to the National Park website, quote, "After becoming president in 1901, Roosevelt used his authority to protect wildlife and public lands by creating the United States Forest Service and establishing 150 national forests, 51 federal bird reserves, four national game preserves, five national parks, and 18 national monuments by enabling the 1906 American Antiquities Act. During his presidency, Theodore Roosevelt protected approximately 230 million acres.

• 8:56Danielle LaRock?

  Of public land.

• 8:57Danielle LaRock?

  Very cool.

• 8:58Danielle LaRock?

  So that is kind of why we all refer to him as the conservation president. And he did do clearly a lot of good things that we are still reaping the benefits for, for public lands in the National Park Service and the US Forest Service. But of course, there are two sides to every coin. To continue the conversation on the conservation aspect, much of the reason why he wanted to protect and conserve land is so he could trophy hunt, point blank. He hunted everywhere from the northeast to the wild west and partook in safaris and game hunts across the globe. While he did view hunting not purely for sport, no one can deny he thoroughly enjoyed that aspect.

• 9:39Danielle LaRock?

  He also viewed it as a way to learn about land and the animals that inhabit that land. One of his safaris that was commissioned as a scientific expedition by the Smithsonian Institute was 11 months long, spanned over 2,500 miles throughout East Africa and involved trapping or shooting over 11,000 animals, including everything from insects to the largest of game, including elephants, hippos, and rhinos.

• 10:03Danielle LaRock?

  Wait, he killed 11,000 animals?

• 10:06Danielle LaRock?

  On this expedition, the expedition did. Yeah.

• 10:09Danielle LaRock?

  Wow.

• 10:10Danielle LaRock?

  Roosevelt and his colleagues chronicled that wildlife in the habitat of the region and collected specimens on that particular trip that formed the basis of the Smithsonian's Natural History Museum collection. So a lot of the taxidermy and different specimens that you see in that museum are from that expedition. So I wanted to touch upon that because, yes, he did do a lot of things. And yes, it's very complex and nuanced. And he wasn't just all about killing for the sake of killing, as we'll get into. He did have a big heart for conservation and understanding the natural world and being in awe of it and wanting to protect it. But he also went places specifically to hunt big game. So.

• 10:52Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 10:52Danielle LaRock?

  There's that.

• 10:53Danielle LaRock?

  So there's like some bad stuff. But, you know, I'm very interested in hearing more about him. But as we do know, that hunting and conservation often go hand in hand with each other. And so I'm not super shocked. That I also knew like partially this. I didn't know that there was 11,000 animals killed in one expedition. That is astronomical and I can't think of any reason why that would be okay. But it is interesting that he wanted to preserve all these places because he loved hunting.

• 11:22Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And I think a lot of people can relate to that.

• 11:25Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 11:26Danielle LaRock?

  You know?

• 11:26Danielle LaRock?

  I mean, if you're not preserving these species in these landscapes, there's nowhere for you to hunt them. I mean, if you decimate the whole population, you can't hunt them anymore.

• 11:33Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 11:34Danielle LaRock?

  Uh, and you can't recreate on the land if it doesn't exist anymore. So there are reasons to keep these animals and places alive.

• 11:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yep. And just as a little side note, he was against hunting for the pure sake of killing. Like there was always something to be gained in his mind as well as any senseless slaughter. And so this is just a little quick side note on the teddy bear because it all kind of comes from this one incident. During an unsuccessful bear hunt in Mississippi, Roosevelt's guide tracked down a bear, injured it and tied it to a tree so that the president could have an easy kill and kind of walk away from that hunt, um, you know, successfully. Roosevelt refused to shoot the animal and that scene was captured by a political cartoonist named

• 12:21Danielle LaRock?

  Clifford Berryman and was famously illustrated and later published. After the cartoon appeared in papers, a shopkeeper decided to call his toy bears Teddy's Bears, giving rise to the infamous teddy bear that we all know today.

• 12:36Danielle LaRock?

  I never knew that.

• 12:37Danielle LaRock?

  Cute, cute story.

• 12:40Danielle LaRock?

  Kind of cute story.

• 12:41Danielle LaRock?

  I mean, cute.

• 12:41Danielle LaRock?

  There was an injured bear.

• 12:44Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, but cute outcome. Great. Like, let's all celebrate him. But again, here we go. With another thing that I need to mention before we go on with the story and I promise after this, it's going to actually be like not so much of a history lesson, but it's really important to discuss this stuff at the top because I know a lot of people out there are going to be like, wait a minute, but he kind of was not that great. And I know that.

• 13:11Danielle LaRock?

  Multifaceted, good things, bad things.

• 13:13Danielle LaRock?

  Yep.

• 13:14Danielle LaRock?

  But that's part of what we. Love to do on this podcast is to highlight not just like the stuff that we like.

• 13:19Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 13:20Danielle LaRock?

  The true history of it.

• 13:21Danielle LaRock?

  That's right. So Roosevelt was also a racist, plain and simple. He held dangerous views of minority groups, including indigenous and black people, as well as anyone that he deemed non-American. And while that aspect of him was overshadowed for much of history, it came to light real hard in 2020 on the world stage when people demanded his statue be removed from the front of the American Museum of Natural History. The 10-foot bronze statue depicted him atop a horse with both an indigenous person and a black person at each of his sides. A monument that many believe to represent racial hierarchy that favors whites over other races.

• 14:00Danielle LaRock?

  I fully remember this.

• 14:02Danielle LaRock?

  Yes, me too.

• 14:03Danielle LaRock?

  This was huge in the media, and I do think rightfully so, especially seeing like if you're listening to this podcast, go Google an image of the statue. I mean, the, the argument for what you're saying was totally warranted.

• 14:18Danielle LaRock?

  Historian David Silby, in an interview for a 2020 article for NBC News, explains Roosevelt is a contradiction of values and a figure that stirs both admiration and contempt, saying, quote, "One of the perils of being a historian is that there aren't any good people in history." I think both Theodore Roosevelts are true. I think that he was certainly the kind of progressive politician of the early 20th century who started moving the United States forward on environmental and other issues. But he was also a racist who viewed other peoples around the world as distinctly inferior to Americans, end quote. The museum did decide to take the statue down, and Roosevelt's great-grandson, Mark Roosevelt, agreed with that decision,

• 15:01Danielle LaRock?

  saying, quote, "If we wish to live in harmony and equality with people of other races, we should not maintain paternalistic statues that depict Native Americans and African-Americans in subordinate roles." The statue of Theodore Roosevelt, my great-grandfather, in front of New York's Museum of Natural History does so, and it is a good thing that it is being taken down.

• 15:22Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and I think it's also really important to mention why. Like why that's so important right now. And I think a huge part of that is because in the outdoor space and in the outdoor communities, there is a huge misrepresentation and not representation of people of color and other ethnicities throughout the outdoors. And it's almost, I mean, if you look at the statistics of the amount of white people who go to national parks versus other ethnicities, it the, the numbers are staggering. So to have something that's so blatantly is related to an outdoor space that is depicting indigenous people and black people in this way is very harmful for the overall narrative of who should be in the outdoors.

• 16:07Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So that was taken right down. Everybody is kind of on the, on the consensus that that was a good thing. Um, and recognizing, you know, just like that historian said, there's no good, you know, there's no, he's not good. He's not bad. He's both, as are many people in history. And we just need to recognize that, acknowledge that, and

• 16:27Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Danielle LaRock?

  Move forward.

• 16:28Danielle LaRock?

  These are the facts of what happened, but acknowledge that we don't have to celebrate everything that

• 16:33Danielle LaRock?

  About this person. Yeah.

• 16:35Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 16:35Danielle LaRock?

  Exactly. Yeah. Not to harp on all of that in depth.

• 16:39Danielle LaRock?

  But an interesting point to make.

• 16:40Danielle LaRock?

  But I had to, you know?

• 16:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 16:42Danielle LaRock?

  So with that in mind, all of that in mind, recognized, addressed, having a moment of silence for that. This story is one of the last, if not the last grand adventure of Theodore Roosevelt's life. One that he almost didn't survive and one of true Amazonian exploration. It's got elements of adventure, misadventure, discovery, tragedy, and death. And despite all that we know about Theodore Roosevelt, it is a story that for most of history was merely a footnote on his resume, despite being such a dramatic part of his life. This is the story of the Roosevelt Rondon Expedition and the mapping of the River of Doubt.

• 17:24Danielle LaRock?

  Well, you know, I love a survival story.

• 17:27Danielle LaRock?

  You're getting

• 17:28Danielle LaRock?

  All in. I'm getting like, I'm a little chilly right now. I'm getting cozy. I know this is a three or four parter.

• 17:34Danielle LaRock?

  It's not. Okay. Hold on a minute.

• 17:38Danielle LaRock?

  Hold on.

• 17:38Danielle LaRock?

  I'll be here for a while.

• 17:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I'm gonna try and make it two parts. We'll see. I'm definitely parsing this story down for sure because at the top, I read an amazing book titled The River of Doubt: Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Journey by Candace Millard. She's also wrote a lot of other historic novels that are amazing. She's a New York Times bestseller. This book is great. It's also very long. It's almost 500 pages long. So to make it a two parter would be a huge accomplishment on my part. So let's just keep that in mind.

• 18:12Danielle LaRock?

  We haven't had many three parters, so it would be every, I love multiple, I love getting really invested in a story and getting to hang out there for a little bit. So whatever you decide, we're ready for it and we're down.

• 18:24Danielle LaRock?

  All right. Well, despite how many times we'll be here for the story, let's begin.

• 18:34Speaker 04

  The mighty dollar. Once upon a time, it had a whole menu named after it. Now, no more. But $1 a day lets you add Progressive Renters Insurance to your auto insurance. Definitely something your younger self would roll their eyes at, but your current adulting self appreciates. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Average premium cost based on Progressive home data from 2025. Product and prices may vary by state.

• 19:03Danielle LaRock?

  For most of his adult life, Roosevelt's life largely revolved around politics. But in the wake of his 1912 loss, it was time for a change. His loss to Woodrow Wilson was a blow. And while he saved face publicly and took the defeat in stride behind closed doors and in the company of his inner circle, he was devastated. Not only did he lose the election, for various reasons I won't get into as they are very politically complicated, he lost the support he had grown accustomed to. For years, the American public clamored to see Roosevelt speak and hung on his every word and rallied behind him. He was accustomed to being a formidable leader and had grown into an icon as one of the most celebrated presidents in the nation.

• 19:47Danielle LaRock?

  History. So while he wasn't exactly blindsided by his loss in November of 1912, for the fiercely competitive former president, it was a blow not only due to the presidential run loss, but the degree to which his former supporters turned on him. As a result, he retreated to his Sagamore Hill, New York estate, which is now a national historic site also, with his family, who described him as having a bruised spirit. Withdrawing from society and immersing himself in the seclusion of the wilderness and the challenges it could present was not new for Roosevelt. If he loved anything, it was a challenge, and that attitude became his savior on more than one occasions, beginning in childhood. Roosevelt

• 20:30Danielle LaRock?

  was born a very sickly child, frail and with severe asthma. And for a time, his parents wondered if he would even survive into adulthood. However, Roosevelt's mind was strong, and he was determined to overcome his physical limitations by implementing intense physical training and relying on his mental fortitude. With his father's encouragement, his physical fitness routine, and his own mental toughness, Roosevelt transformed himself into a strong young adult and overcame his condition. He went on to study at Harvard and began boxing, which became an outlet for his grief and anger at his father's sudden and unexpected passing at the age of 46. Following the first tragedy of his life,

• 21:12Danielle LaRock?

  Roosevelt plunged himself further into his studies and into seclusion in the summers, disappearing into the thick Maine wilderness. Things were looking up for him when he reached his early twenties. He graduated Harvard and married a woman named Alice Lee, somebody he initially pinned as way out of his league, but happily managed to woo, and had been elected as New York State's youngest assemblyman. However, when he was just 25 years old, the two people closest to him in life, his mother Martha and his wife Alice, died on the same day. On Valentine's Day of 1884, his mother died at age 48 from typhoid fever, and just 11 hours later, Alice died of Bright's disease, a kidney disorder, just two days

• 21:57Danielle LaRock?

  after giving birth to their first child. That's awful. He marked the date in his journal with a thick, black X and a simple, profound sentence. Quote, "The light has gone out of my life." Following their deaths, he left his infant daughter, named Alice, after his wife, in the care of his family while he turned to the only thing he knew to cope with all of this despair. And that was losing himself to nature, laying himself out to the mercy of the challenges that it presented. And this time, that was to the rugged Dakota Badlands. This was a pattern that his friends and family came to expect with Roosevelt. And he turned to physical and wilderness challenges, treks and adventures,

• 22:39Danielle LaRock?

  for not only the losses of people, but as a way to work through the most difficult events that he faced throughout his life. In fact, according to the author Candace Millard of The River of Doubt, which is, like I said, the primary resource I used for this episode. Quote, "Throughout his adult life, Roosevelt would relish in physical exertion and would use it not just as a way to keep his body fit and his mind sharp, but as his most effective weapon against oppression and despair. And he did this often by losing himself to the wilderness." That's why, when one February morning in 1913, while flipping through the most recent mail delivery at Sagamore Hill, Edith's breath caught in her throat.

• 23:21Danielle LaRock?

  And Edith is his second wife that he remarried after Alice. As she looked down at the thick packet addressed to her husband, that all-too-familiar feeling overcame her. She was about to lose her husband to another adventure. Fifty-two-year-old Edith had spent nearly half her life waiting for her husband to return from wherever far-off place he had traveled to, either for war, campaigns, various trips, or adventures. And looking down at the invitation from the Museo Social, a social history museum based in Argentina, she knew another prolonged separation was afoot. The lengthy invitation essentially was requesting Roosevelt to be a guest lecturer on a tour circuit around South America.

• 24:04Danielle LaRock?

  It spoke to the admiration the group had for Roosevelt's accomplishments, his career, his ideals. They were really Gassing him up and Roosevelt received a lot of invitations to do different public engagements and speeches and things like that, clearly as one of the most successful presidents and politicians in history and he passed up a lot of them, especially when he had retreated back to this estate with his family and was kind of just working through a lot emotionally and you know, it was a tough time in his life and he said no to a lot, but this one really piqued his interest. They offered a some equivalent of about $250,000 today for this tour, but aside from the financial

• 24:45Danielle LaRock?

  incentive and the opportunity to be a keynote speaker, there was a personal reason that Roosevelt considered this invitation especially intriguing, the ability to extend his trip into an expedition. At the time, South America was considered beyond remote, largely unmapped and considered highly dangerous. In 1913, with the exception of some large and lengthy rivers that were documented, there was a large swath of dense jungle the size of the country of Germany smack dab in the middle of South America that remained unmapped and unexplored by any foreigners. Interesting. The pristine jungles, unpenetrated wilderness that remained untouched by outsiders, the danger

• 25:29Danielle LaRock?

  that such a place could offer, the pure wildness of it was like a siren song that touched parts of Roosevelt's soul that were always straining to hear the call. And that was exactly what ultimately led Roosevelt to say yes to this invitation. Before all the prestigious titles he gained as an adult and prior to every accolade he earned that we remember him by today, Theodore was a kid in New York City that was obsessed with nature. He filled his pants pockets and shelves at home with plants and insects and small critters like snakes and mice. He would observe them, draw them and take notes on their behavior and their composition. He read about pioneering naturalists like John Audubon and dreamed of becoming one himself. By the time

• 26:11Danielle LaRock?

  he was 14 years old, he was already contributing specimens to New York's Museum of Natural History, which is a museum his father helped found and Entered Harvard with full intentions of furthering his formal education in zoology and natural history. He was quickly disappointed when he discovered that most of the studies revolved around lab work, and that largely meant sitting in front of a microscope inside. And he was entirely uninterested in anything but field work. And seeing as how that entire naturalist program at Harvard involved tedious, lab-based work, he pivoted to political studies over his lifelong passion for natural science. He may have formally switched studies, but

• 26:53Danielle LaRock?

  never gave up his interest in nature. In fact, he took every opportunity he could to escape into the wild, either alone or with guests throughout his entire life, and continued his contributions of various specimens from his adventures throughout the States and beyond to the Natural History Museum and the Smithsonian. So his plan for this South American expedition slash, essentially, it was a job obligation before it became this grand expedition that we are going to focus on.

• 27:23Danielle LaRock?

  I can relate to that. It's like, you have to go here for a job. And it's like, oh, but what if I make a vacation out of this?

• 27:28Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, you usually tack on a few days before and after.

• 27:32Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Danielle LaRock?

  To do so. And that was essentially his plan, but just on steroids, basically.

• 27:41Danielle LaRock?

  One of my favorite things about decorating our home is finding furniture that's both functional and beautiful. And Article has been such a great discovery for that. I recently got their Jokana vinyl media unit in walnut, and it's such a beautiful piece. Al got me a record player for Christmas last year, and I have been searching for the right furniture to put it on, and this one is perfect. The walnut finish gives it that classic mid-century modern look that I love, and it's practical, but it also feels like this huge statement in our living room now. I was also really impressed with how securely everything was packaged when it arrived. You could tell a lot of care went into making sure the furniture was protected during shipping, which is something that I really appreciate when I'm ordering larger pieces online. Article's furniture is thoughtfully designed with beautiful styles that are easy

• 28:25Danielle LaRock?

  to mix and match throughout your home. They prioritize quality and craftsmanship with Out the designer price tag and make it easy to find pieces that feel cohesive in your space. They also offer fast, affordable shipping, customer support seven days a week, and even free interior design services if you need help pulling a room together. Plus, there's a 30-day satisfaction guarantee, so you can shop with confidence. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com/NPAD, and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com/NPAD for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 29:12Danielle LaRock?

  His plan was to perform his duties as a speaker and then extend his travels deeper into the Amazon on a scientific expedition. He knew what he wanted to do, and he turned to his lifelong relationship with the Museum of Natural History for advice on how to make it a reality. It was the heyday for exploration, and the museum was a distinguished sponsor of expeditions to all of the most remote and far-flung locations around the world. And its president and longtime friend of Roosevelt, Henry Fairfield Osborne, was ecstatic to help Roosevelt organize his journey into the Amazon and quickly began assisting in organizing his expedition. First up was onboarding someone unlikely, a priest. Father John Augustine Zom,

• 29:57Danielle LaRock?

  who was a bit of an enigma in the church. He trained for the priesthood since he was young, like at the age of 16. But he also, as an adult, taught chemistry and physics at Notre Dame and was a proponent of evolution, and even wrote some books about it. So that was not the norm, especially back in the early 1900s. And Father Zom had visited South America for the first time back in 1907 on an expedition to the Amazon River. And ever since, he had returned, he had been searching for a way to go back. He was just became obsessed with that part of the world, but was falling short on finding friends to accompany him or different expeditions to get on to as a way of making that happen.

• 30:40Danielle LaRock?

  I'm sure it would take a very long time just to even get to South America, never mind to actually do the trip as well. So I'm sure it would be hard to find people willing to commit to that.

• 30:49Danielle LaRock?

  And over the years, he approached Roosevelt, whom he had initially met through Notre Dame, and went on to become good friends with on several different occasions, urging him to join him to the Amazon. He knew that Roosevelt traveled the world. This was his thing. He was hoping to get something going with Roosevelt as a way to get himself back there, but it just-

• 31:09Danielle LaRock?

  He's like, you're my outdoor friend.

• 31:10Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, it's like, come on, let's do this. But it never really quite aligned. For one reason or another, he was always shot down. Years piled on to one another, and before long, Father Zom looked in the mirror and saw an aged man, one whose opportunity for a glorious adventure into the jungles of South America were closing rapidly. Imagine his surprise when he reached out to his connections at the Museum of Natural History for help in seeking advice to make his trip a reality, when they informed him, hey, Theodore Roosevelt is doing the same. You guys should link up. Father Zom, now in his mid-60s, wound up serving as the expedition organizer, which meant choosing the route, ordering provisions, organizing transportation and equipment,

• 31:52Danielle LaRock?

  all the details that Roosevelt was happy to leave to others. It seemed like, at first, when organizing this, it kind of was like Roosevelt had this idea of wanting to extend his trip. He wants to do this expedition. He was like, hey, I want to do this. Somebody else make it happen, and I'll be there. Kind of like trusting others to put it together. He was not very-

• 32:15Danielle LaRock?

  He didn't want to plan it. He just wanted to be part of it.

• 32:17Danielle LaRock?

  Right. So he wasn't very hands-on involved in any of the early formation and organizing and moving parts of this-

• 32:27Danielle LaRock?

  The first passenger princess.

• 32:30Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. Actually, that's a wonderful way to put it. I'm gonna not elaborate any further because we get that. He was so happy, in fact, to leave everything to everybody else that he left on a hunting trip for five weeks with two of his sons, leaving all of the prep work to Father Zom. In Zom's process of broadening the team and in hopes of delegating tasks and responsibilities, he on boarded 44-year-old Anthony Fiala, a man that at the time, served as the head of a New York City sporting goods store, who would take on the responsibility of ordering the team's provisions and equipment. And he wasn't just a store clerk. Everyone in the world of exploration knew his name, but not for the best of reasons.

• 33:15Danielle LaRock?

  Years earlier, Anthony had served as a photographer on one of the expeditions sent out to be the first to reach the North Pole. When that expedition's leader was fired, Fiala was promoted to commander, at which he epically failed. The expedition was tragically unprepared and disorganized. The ship became encased and trapped in ice, crushed and sank, and he and his team were stranded on the ice for two years. The expedition went down in history as a disaster of legendary proportions, and when they returned home, Fiala was ripped apart. The nicest of comments labeled him as utterly incompetent. So.

• 33:56Danielle LaRock?

  And hate to hear the bad ones. And they're like, this is the guy who should help us with our expedition.

• 34:01Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. Despite having no experience in the Amazon and his not-so-stunning resume, Fiala secured the position as the person equipping this entire expedition. The team grew as Zom onboarded more and more men, everyone from naturalists to handymen, porters, paddlers, doctors, and more, again, many with questionable resumes and character. As things were starting to take shape, the museum watched with concern. With the exception of Zom and Fiala, none of the people involved so far had any real experience in the Amazon, and that was clear. From the onset, there were arguments about everything from the most suitable provisions, equipment, to logistics. They grew worried for Roosevelt's well-being in the hands of what appeared to be kind

• 34:46Danielle LaRock?

  of like, a ragtag group of explorers. They're like, what is happening here?

• 34:51Danielle LaRock?

  There's so much that's gonna go... I feel like you're foreshadowing so hard.

• 34:55Danielle LaRock?

  Thank you so much.

• 34:58Danielle LaRock?

  Not only was Roosevelt their friend, you know, the, the leaders of the museum, especially Osborne.

• 35:04Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 35:04Danielle LaRock?

  This was a beloved ex-president. And if anything was to go wrong, if he was to be injured or killed on an expedition that their museum was funding and advising, it would not be a good look.

• 35:16Danielle LaRock?

  No, not at all. And they're looking at this like, wait a second, what's going on? And also, how do you question the president and his team at the same time of like, hey, are you sure you want to do this? But also, it's really gonna look bad on us if it goes wrong.

• 35:32Danielle LaRock?

  They're just trying to gently guide some decision-making.

• 35:35Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 35:36Danielle LaRock?

  While also maintaining their reputation.

• 35:40Danielle LaRock?

  A good relationship.

• 35:41Danielle LaRock?

  They stepped in and hired men of their own, whose abilities and experience they were confident in. Forty-eight-year-old ornithologist George Sherry, who had nearly 30 years of experience in South America on over 25 trips, collecting avian specimens while navigating through the Amazon. And 48-year-old Colonel Candido Mariano da Silva Rondon, a guide who spent half of his life exploring the Amazon, traversing nearly 14,000 miles of unmapped wilderness and was known as both a hardened explorer and a disciplined military officer, were on-boarded.

• 36:17Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, now we're cooking with gas. That's a good sign.

• 36:19Danielle LaRock?

  Both men were initially wary of joining. They were hesitant to tag along on a trip that was cushy or just for hunting purposes. They knew of Roosevelt's past expeditions and they knew that they were geared largely towards hunting or for tourism purposes. But they were persuaded when they were reassured that this was for scientific exploration. Father Zom was attempting to make a deal with National Geographic to sell them a series of photographs that would be taken on this expedition. And several team members were tasked with collecting plant and animal specimens for museum collections and various scientific studies. So this wasn't just like, the president wants to see the Amazon and we're gonna carry him on a chair around to see things.

• 37:02Danielle LaRock?

  You know, they wanted to make sure it was legit and they agreed to join. It's worth. Noting that despite organizing this entire expedition, Father Zom was not particularly well-suited to do so either. While he had visited South America that one time, and wrote several books on his travels, among the small circle of South American explorers of the time, the legitimacy of his claims was called into question. They were skeptical of his actual experience after reading his writings on his experiences, and some got the feeling that he saw so little of the countries that he claimed to have visited, that he may as well have never visited them at all.

• 37:42Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, wow.

• 37:43Danielle LaRock?

  Yikes.

• 37:44Danielle LaRock?

  How bad were his writings?

• 37:47Danielle LaRock?

  I think they were just misrepresentative of what was truly.

• 37:51Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I'm just curious of what he was saying.

• 37:54Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know.

• 37:54Danielle LaRock?

  Like, he's clearly never been here.

• 37:57Danielle LaRock?

  Whether or not Roosevelt was concerned with Zom, Fiala, or any of the other men's abilities, or lack thereof, he didn't really make mention of it. He was informed of the risks encountering hostile indigenous peoples, battling whitewater rapids, the potential of getting lost, the potential for contracting a myriad of different diseases, and battling the elements and the wildlife, but he accepted all of that and took it in stride. He didn't exactly brush them off, but he was willing to take his chances, fully recognizing his life could be in danger. He wasn't exactly throwing all caution to the wind, though, especially as there would be someone he cared for deeply, joining the team, his son Kermit. Like, also so cute.

• 38:39Danielle LaRock?

  The name Kermit?

• 38:40Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 38:41Danielle LaRock?

  I've never heard of a person named Kermit.

• 38:43Danielle LaRock?

  The most adventurous of his six children, Kermit had gotten his first taste for adventure on a 1909 trip with his father on an African safari. He had been 18 years old at the time, and Roosevelt had initially been really hesitant to include his son in this trip, because it was going to be several months long, and he worried it was going to be a distraction for his son from his studies at Harvard, because they're the Harvard family.

• 39:10Danielle LaRock?

  Harvard.

• 39:11Danielle LaRock?

  But his son had reassured him that once he returned from Africa, he would dive right back down into his studies and buckle down on everything. And he was not kidding. He finished his four-year degree in just over two years, eager to get back into a life at adventure that he just had a taste of. After graduation, he set his sights on Brazil and had settled there for over a year, making his own way. Learning of the expedition, Kermit, now newly engaged and eager to start a new life with his fiancee Belle, was reluctant to join such a lengthy expedition. But he felt a personal obligation to join his father not only as a companion, but also as a protector. Roosevelt was now in his mid-50s.

• 39:55Danielle LaRock?

  And despite still being remarkably fit and capable, Kermit was all too familiar of everything that could go wrong in the jungle and would have forever regretted his decision to forego the journey with his dad. If anything was to go south, he would have beat himself up for the rest of his life. The Amazon River Basin in 1913 remained largely untouched by modernity. More than two-thirds of the basin lies within the country of Brazil, the world's fifth-largest nation. And many of the people who resided in the bustling, very populated Brazilian cities had very little interest, or means, or time to dedicate to explore its dense interior. The mighty Amazon River snakes through the northern section of the country and is navigable for nearly three-quarters of its length.

• 40:40Danielle LaRock?

  And to put that in perspective, that is equivalent to the distance between Bangor, Maine, and San Francisco, California.

• 40:48Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, wow. Okay, so this...

• 40:51Danielle LaRock?

  This is a large...

• 40:52Danielle LaRock?

  Now I know what you're saying.

• 40:54Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, now you get it. But it has thousands of tributaries that reach out to other distant parts of the country that were relatively unknown, and many of which had never been seen by non-Indigenous peoples.

• 41:13Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 41:46Danielle LaRock?

  So back to the expedition that Father Zom is putting together because in Father Zom we trust, for now. His intended route was relatively well-known. Traveling along five of the best-known rivers on the South American continent, it would not be especially treacherous, albeit strenuous. So, he's like, alright, I'm gonna spend... He spent about a year putting this expedition together and meticulously, like, planning out the route and figuring it all out. And it would still be an adventure, but it was not to all these unknown parts that I just kinda talked about. They're like, alright, well, this is mapped. It's still the Amazon jungle. It's gonna be intense, but at least we know where we're going.

• 42:29Danielle LaRock?

  At least other people have been here before.

• 42:31Danielle LaRock?

  Right, yes.

• 42:32Danielle LaRock?

  We feel a little bit better about it.

• 42:33Danielle LaRock?

  Roosevelt and the team was under the impression that it would be a straightforward trip with very little danger as Zom's proposed route entailed, traveling along those five rivers, which were among the best-known rivers on the entire continent, all of which appeared on even the most basic of maps that existed at the time. But what's that phrase about the best-laid plans? Have you heard that?

• 42:56Danielle LaRock?

  I'm not sure.

• 42:57Danielle LaRock?

  The best-laid plans? It's like a Of Mice and Men thing, I think. They often go awry. Everything changed when an acquaintance of Roosevelt... Who he met on his lecture tour, heard this proposed route of the expedition that he was going to be partaking in after his job was done. And then compared, and then this guy compared it to what he knew of Roosevelt and his spirit for adventure and wanting to explore and being this like pioneer. And he posed a question that changed the entire trajectory of this trip. He said, Colonel Roosevelt, why don't you go down an unknown river?

• 43:35Danielle LaRock?

  And Roosevelt's eyes lit up because beyond his long held desire of adventuring into the wildernesses of the world and challenging himself in mind and body and spirit was the long held dream of being a true explorer. Not merely a tourist or a visitor, but a pioneer among the first to put a place on a map. He was soon presented with a handful of alternative plans and routes. And needless to say, he was eager to pivot, foregoing Zomp's several years long preparations for what was newly known as Rio da Duvida, the River of Doubt. It was largely unknown, remained absent from all maps

• 44:18Danielle LaRock?

  and held strong as one of the remaining enduring mysteries of the Brazilian jungle.

• 44:23Danielle LaRock?

  And this is coming from the guy who is like, do your thing, I'll be there. I don't want any part in planning it. And then he finds out the plan and he's like, someone else is like, wait, that's not cool. What if you did something new? And he's like, yeah. Change of plans.

• 44:38Danielle LaRock?

  And that's when they're already down here. They're already down in South America.

• 44:42Danielle LaRock?

  Already totally planned everything. And he's like, wait a second.

• 44:47Danielle LaRock?

  I like that guy's idea.

• 44:49Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, that guy we talked to, that said one sentence, even though you've been preparing for a very long time.

• 44:54Danielle LaRock?

  Imagine I'd be like, my spreadsheets.

• 45:01Danielle LaRock?

  Would be clutching the pearls. I'd be like, we can't deviate from the plan.

• 45:05Danielle LaRock?

  I've been planning for so long.

• 45:06Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So this river was dubbed the River of Doubt by Ron Don, who had come across it just years earlier while working on another expedition team laying telegram wire. So this is somebody that is a part of the team, thank God, and he's the one who initially first, quote unquote, discovered it initially and knew that it existed. Even still, he knew very little about it and only followed it long enough to know that it deserved its own expedition dedicated entirely to mapping it before turning back. Like, he found it during another expedition, followed it for a little bit, hoping to, you know, figure it out, and then realized the enormity of it.

• 45:45Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, we're not prepared for this.

• 45:46Danielle LaRock?

  No.

• 45:46Danielle LaRock?

  We have to come back another time.

• 45:48Danielle LaRock?

  Yep. So to the expedition's knowledge, no one knew its direction, its length, or where it led, not the location or the quantity of hazardous, like waterfalls, rapids, or whirlpools. In short, it was the complete unknown that Roosevelt was amped for. He's like, oh, hell, yeah.

• 46:09Danielle LaRock?

  This is great. This is way better than the trip we had.

• 46:13Danielle LaRock?

  Everyone else is like, oh, my God, like, doing the sign of the cross, like, please, help us.

• 46:19Danielle LaRock?

  When word got back to the museum about the change of plans, they were furious.

• 46:24Danielle LaRock?

  I'm sure.

• 46:25Danielle LaRock?

  This was not what they agreed upon and would have never done so. Roosevelt admitted that the new plan was, quote unquote, "slightly more hazardous."

• 46:33Danielle LaRock?

  Slightly.

• 46:34Danielle LaRock?

  To which the museum responded, quote, "It may be said with confidence that in all of South America, there is not a more difficult or dangerous journey than that down the River of Doubt."

• 46:46Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, actually, it's not slightly more dangerous, it's the most dangerous.

• 46:50Danielle LaRock?

  To which Roosevelt responded, and I just imagine this, like, slow, like, snail mail, like, weeks later. It's probably through telegram, so it's probably pretty instant. But he responded, quote, "Tell Osborne I have already lived and enjoyed as much of my life as any nine other men I know. I have had my full share, and if it is necessary for me to leave my bones in South America, I am quite ready to do so."

• 47:16Danielle LaRock?

  What about all the other people?

• 47:19Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, if I die, I die. It's fine. It's like, hold on a sec. We're funding this. And

• 47:25Danielle LaRock?

  Well, he did for Roosevelt, to Roosevelt's credit, he did tell everybody else, like he held a meeting and said, there's been a change of plans. This is the new direction that we're going. You didn't sign up for this and I'm aware of that. So if you want to bail, you can bail. And nobody did.

• 47:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, but who bails? I'm a ex-president.

• 47:44Danielle LaRock?

  Well, that's

• 47:44Danielle LaRock?

  That's like the biggest peer pressure I've ever heard. It's like, I know it's a change of plans. You don't have to go if you're not strong enough.

• 47:51Danielle LaRock?

  But I'm going.

• 47:54Danielle LaRock?

  Kisses his muscle.

• 47:57Danielle LaRock?

  But I'm going and I'm willing to die down here. Who else wants to die?

• 48:01Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, but you can leave if you want, if you're scared.

• 48:03Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 48:03Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. Father Zom had officially lost control of this trip and this new plan left them woefully unprepared and scrambling to adjust. Roosevelt set sail for South America in October of 1913, completed his speaking obligation and a separate hunting side trip. So we're not even touching on that. That's a, if you want to hear about that, you can read the book. But by Christmas Day, he had met up with Kermit and the rest of his team to officially begin the expedition portion of this whole endeavor. The river of doubt was so remote that it would take two months by boat, followed by riding atop mules to overland to reach the headwaters of this particular river.

• 48:44Danielle LaRock?

  So they can't even get to it without

• 48:46Danielle LaRock?

  Months of

• 48:47Danielle LaRock?

  Months of travel first.

• 48:49Danielle LaRock?

  They entered Brazil through the Paraguay River, which they then followed upstream for as long as possible before they would disembark and travel 400 miles through the wilderness until they reached the entrance to the river, a place where only a handful of men had ever reached before. And that handful is Rondon in his previous expedition. The team spent the first several weeks aboard the boat, getting to know one another. Kermit's writings home to Belle indicated he worried for his father, who felt he was misled by Father Zom as to the conditions in the jungle and what the journey was expected to be. Other members of the team were also concerned for Roosevelt at first, but the 55 year old man, the Initially doubted quickly proved himself worthy in more ways than one.

• 49:33Danielle LaRock?

  He outpaced nearly everybody on the team physically. His spirits were high, he kept morale elevated and functioned as someone half of his age. Despite the language barriers, they were also equally impressed with his tales of adventures and also his genuine interest in hearing of theirs and the effort he displayed in getting to know everybody involved. And again, these are people of different, there, a lot of these people are not American. So yes, he is remembered as a racist because he did hold racist beliefs. But at times, he wasn't, he didn't display that here.

• 50:09Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, but these aren't, yeah, I guess. But they're different because they're not, are they indigenous or black people?

• 50:15Danielle LaRock?

  You'll see that we're going to get into indigenous peoples.

• 50:18Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 50:18Danielle LaRock?

  But these are non-Americans and he believed non-Americans were not worthy or equal to be regarded as the same as Americans.

• 50:27Danielle LaRock?

  Right. But when you're in another country where you're a little outnumbered, it's funny how those.

• 50:32Danielle LaRock?

  Ah, how the tables turn. Yeah.

• 50:34Danielle LaRock?

  You're like, oh, now I'm the minority. Like, never mind.

• 50:44Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 51:16Danielle LaRock?

  After over a month, the boat arrived in Tapirapoa, where they were set to disembark and begin travel on foot to reach this river. Rondon had pre-arranged 70 oxen and 110 mules to carry their gear and supplies and to serve as meat. But when the team arrived, it was a hot mess. Most of the animals had never

• 51:39Danielle LaRock?

  Carried a pack before or had been handled by people. They were not broken in and they bucked, bolted and panicked. And this caused a delay, a lengthy delay until they were finally under control and could carry equipment and serve their purpose for this expedition. The expedition had an extreme amount of baggage, over 360 crates, thousands and thousands of pounds worth that was only expected to grow with the addition of collected specimens because again, remember they're collecting things as they're going to. Like, we already have a lot of stuff, but we're just gonna be adding to it. It was decided that the expedition would split in two. It was too large and slow moving

• 52:21Danielle LaRock?

  to move as one singular unit. The ox team carrying the larger baggage would lead and have a bit of a head start while Roosevelt and Rondon took the mule team. They journeyed into the Brazilian Highlands, an eroded plateau region of central and southeastern Brazil that encompasses over 580,000 square miles, over double the size of the state of Texas and is marked with deep ravines, steep cliffs and sweeping hills. Landscape that varies from dense jungle to open pasture to swaths of desert. While the time aboard the boat had its challenges, it was child's play compared to this. The team fell into a routine. It was not uncommon to go

• 53:01Danielle LaRock?

  nearly 17 hours without food as they plugged along. At times, especially along the dry desert portions of the Highlands, parts of which were as dry as Arizona, water was scarce and the animals quickly deteriorated. When water would come, the dusty dirt trails would become sloppy mud pits, which proved difficult to traverse. Before long, Roosevelt and Rondon's team came upon the bleached bones of mules and oxen from previous expeditions that had died in years prior, a startling reminder of the presence of death. But what truly shocked them was the sight of dozens and dozens of unopened supply crates scattered all throughout their path labeled

• 53:43Danielle LaRock?

  Roosevelt South American Expedition. The animals ahead of them had grown so tired that

• 53:49Danielle LaRock?

  They began bucking off their heavy loads and with no way of carrying the supplies themselves, the men passed them by, eyeing them longingly and wondering what precious cargo they may have contained.

• 54:01Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, they didn't even check to see what they were leaving behind?

• 54:04Danielle LaRock?

  I mean, they checked a few things, but even still, they had no way of, they were at capacity. There was no way for them to carry that.

• 54:11Danielle LaRock?

  Right. I'm just picturing if there's like things you really need in there.

• 54:16Danielle LaRock?

  One wonder.

• 54:17Danielle LaRock?

  Walking right by it. The foreshadowing continues.

• 54:22Danielle LaRock?

  The harsh terrain, difficult conditions, rationed supplies and food started to wear down the men. Coupled with personality clashes and arguments, further compounded by illnesses like malaria and yellow fever, the expedition started taking on a more serious tone.

• 54:37Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, my gosh, malaria.

• 54:39Danielle LaRock?

  Kermit was among those fighting malaria with a fever of a hundred and two and had riding sores covering his legs. He was barely able to stay atop his mule. Injuries were rampant and all of the men were relentlessly pursued and engulfed by swarms of small biting insects, namely horseflies and small stingless bees nicknamed eye lickers as they swarmed the corners of people's eyes relentlessly. Rainy season was now full in swing and the downpours not only thoroughly soaked everyone and every bit of their gear, but made the terrain more and more treacherous for the animals. Men started dropping out, opting to still bail while they had the chance. The expedition was over a month in. Okay, we're like cruising through time. Has lasted.

• 55:24Danielle LaRock?

  They've been out here a while.

• 55:26Danielle LaRock?

  But they were still in close enough proximity of known villages and outposts to turn back or find alternative routes out at this point in time, and many of them were taking that opportunity. It was becoming clear that morale was very low. Many of the men questioned their ability to continue the journey and most doubted the ability of the expedition itself to make it to its final destination. They had added over a hundred men to the team since they began throughout this journey, kind of onboarding people throughout these villages and outposts and things like that, and they varied from Skilled surveyors, guides, additional laborers, engineers and officers that would be necessary to keep the expedition afloat and successful enough to get to the point of entry to the river.

• 56:10Danielle LaRock?

  But it was clear that cuts needed to be made and those on the chopping block were the ones whose contributions were most at question. Several of the original naturalists, along with Father Zom and Fiala, much to their dismay, bruised hearts and egos were let loose by Roosevelt, who was not alone in the feeling that they were unfit to continue on and were not bringing much to the table.

• 56:34Danielle LaRock?

  Wait, the ones who planned the whole trip?

• 56:36Danielle LaRock?

  Yes.

• 56:36Danielle LaRock?

  He's like, you gotta go.

• 56:38Danielle LaRock?

  Yep.

• 56:39Danielle LaRock?

  I mean, I guess they didn't plan the trip that he last minute decided they were doing.

• 56:43Danielle LaRock?

  And over time, they're realizing that the supplies and things that they, there was like, they packed hundreds of pounds worth of like olive oil and mustard seed and condiments. It's like, what are you doing? This is all a necessary way.

• 57:01Danielle LaRock?

  Why do you need that?

• 57:02Danielle LaRock?

  And is not going to help us in a survival situation. So they were finding out throughout time and just like in their interactions and their work ethic and their contributions to the team. They just were failing in a lot of ways and they didn't want them.

• 57:16Danielle LaRock?

  These weren't the best team members to bring on board and you're figuring this this out a month into the wilderness.

• 57:21Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So they were among the people who got cut.

• 57:24Danielle LaRock?

  Cutthroat.

• 57:26Danielle LaRock?

  By early February, despite the drastic cuts to the team, the expedition was still suffering. The animals were dying left and right under the strain. Over half of them actually were dead.

• 57:37Danielle LaRock?

  Wow.

• 57:37Danielle LaRock?

  And of those remaining, many of them could barely walk. This led to an even more generous parse down of already thinned out supplies, because there's literally not enough animals to carry that that gear and the ones that remain are very weak. So they ditched crates of specimens already collected, along with the collecting equipment, heavy tents, opting to share tents versus having their own ox carts, which were becoming impossible to pull any longer. Anything that wasn't deemed absolutely essential, with the exception of a few belongings.

• 58:09Danielle LaRock?

  Such as writing implements in books were cast aside, just left in the jungle. They were nearing the next part of their journey as they slashed their way closer and closer to the banks of the River of Doubt. But they were now entering an area in which they needed to be vigilant for another danger. So crazy because you just reminded me that they're not even at the River of Doubt. Do you see what I'm saying? Like this feels like it needs multiple parts. And I feel like I'm still not doing the story justice because there's so much detail that I'm omitting. Yeah. Where they were up to this point was visited by few foreigners before, which numbered in the handfuls at this point in time in history. And that usually came in the form of groups of men that worked in remote outposts laying telegraph wire.

• 58:52Danielle LaRock?

  In fact, Ron Don had been part of those teams in the past and spent a large part of his career within the jungle, leading those expeditions. He guided men into the most remote pockets of the wilderness, navigated the most treacherous terrain and used his intimate knowledge of the flora and fauna to keep the men in his charge as safe as possible. But there was an element of the jungle that was largely out of his control, and that was the indigenous populations. Only six years earlier, he had come into contact with the most isolated groups of people in the Amazon for the very first time, and it did not go well. He and three of his men had intentions of making peace with the group named the Nambacuaras,

• 59:33Danielle LaRock?

  riding towards their camp with heaps of gifts, but they were greeted with a wave of poison tipped arrows, one of which lodged right in the leather portion of his coat. Ordering his men to not return fire, they quietly turned around and retreated. For weeks thereafter, Rondon's groups were terrorized by the indigenous tribe of the area, mostly launching surprise attacks at night, and his men were so scared so frequently that the men were terrified to even light a fire in fear that it would give away their position. Sounds like a fair concern if they're attacking at night. Not only were they being attacked, they had seen the result of other successful assaults. On more than one occasion, the telegraph teams and Roosevelt's team, actually.

• 1:00:19Danielle LaRock?

  Had come across the graves of murdered Brazilian telegraph workers, soldiers, or officers. They were buried vertically with their arms pinned to their sides with their chests and heads sticking above the soil and riddled with arrows. Rondon's expeditions into the interior of Brazil became so infamous due to this danger in particular, people were very hesitant to join.

• 1:00:42Danielle LaRock?

  I mean,

• 1:00:43Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Danielle LaRock?

  Totally fair.

• 1:00:45Danielle LaRock?

  Despite this, Rondon remained adamant to display nothing but nonviolence, kindness, and compassion to the Nambacuaras and other tribes that they encountered, no matter what. His mantra was, "Die if you must, but never kill." And it was drilled into all of the men that participated on his expeditions.

• 1:01:06Danielle LaRock?

  And that's really brave, but also on the other end of that, if you fought back, what's the likelihood you're gonna win? You're gonna enter into this battle that you're not prepared for on terrain that you don't know against people who live and know this place. Like, even if you did engage, you're not gonna win.

• 1:01:23Danielle LaRock?

  Well, I think that at this time, a lot of the other expeditions and explorers and militant groups that were entering this was a conquer, like, we're just gonna use guns and kill everybody and don't ask questions and we don't negotiate. Like, yeah, they have poison-tipped arrows and they're very well-versed in the jungle and things like that, but we're just gonna come and obliterate everyone that gives us an issue. So his tactic was the complete opposite. Retaliating against any forms of violence was an absolute no, even if their comrades were injured or killed. Through Rondon's efforts, he eventually gained a peaceful relationship with the tribes, learning their dialects and welcoming them into his camps.

• 1:02:08Danielle LaRock?

  He was acutely aware, however, of the tentative nature of their relationship. The tribes were extremely wary of foreigners, Rondon and his men, other explorers and missionaries alike, and acted quickly, severely, and without hesitation, even over simple misunderstandings. And they gave a book, an example in the book about how another group like- A missionary was in this area of the jungle. They, he also had a peaceful relationship with one of the tribes and he gave like Advil to one of the, the indigenous, I think it was a child that was having severe headaches. And the child died a couple of days later of something else, not from the Advil.

• 1:02:51Danielle LaRock?

  But they didn't understand that. They're like, you just poisoned our kid.

• 1:02:54Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Danielle LaRock?

  And they slaughtered him. So it's just like they, the relationship is so tentative. It's like, okay, you're good and we're good, but that can change really quickly and we have our eyes on you and we don't trust you. And for very valid reasons, right?

• 1:03:08Danielle LaRock?

  So. Yeah. I mean, if you have these other groups that are coming in and.

• 1:03:12Danielle LaRock?

  The persistence Rondon displayed in never deviating from nonviolence was the glue that held together their shaky trust and was largely the only reason the expedition had any chance of passing through this area unharmed. Rondon was so committed to the fair treatment of indigenous populations. He publicly criticized and debated those who were not. His outrage at the belief of many others at the time that to quote, US Army Officer George Armstrong Custer, quote, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian," resulted in the formation of Brazilians Indian Protection Service, the country's first agency dedicated to the protection of its native inhabitants. And Rondon was elected its first director.

• 1:03:54Danielle LaRock?

  So he, this is like a lifelong passion of his is the equal and fair treatment of indigenous peoples. And it goes far beyond just him having a peaceful relationship with them so he can pass through their territory. You know, so, and that's a whole nother thing. I mean, Rondon is an amazing historical figure and he, he does a lot. And his legacy is crazy too. And we'll probably touch on it later, but he.

• 1:04:17Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I've definitely heard of him before, but I don't know the extent of his story.

• 1:04:22Danielle LaRock?

  In contrast, Roosevelt did not share this sentiment. Early in his career, pivoting back to Custer's infamous line, Roosevelt responded, "I don't go as far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of 10 are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the 10th." When he later became president, his views changed slightly. He became more sympathetic to the injustices and cruelties that they faced, specifically in the United States, but believed that America's goal was to absorb indigenous peoples into the American population, AKA strip them of their culture, their ways of life, their language, beliefs, history, et cetera, et cetera.

• 1:05:04Danielle LaRock?

  He also didn't do so great when he hired the head of the Department of Indian Affairs as a man who was not in favor of even extending citizenship rights to indigenous populations in the United States. In regards to his views of indigenous peoples on the expedition, simply put, if it came down to it, he would not be abiding by Rondon's nonviolence orders. He followed Rondon and his methods of showing good intentions as they traveled throughout the forest, allowed different indigenous peoples to come into camp and curiously handle his belongings and inquisitively touch his facial hair and his clothing, but he was prepared to defend himself, his son, and his team if needed. Writing the tribes were, quote, "light-hearted robbers and murderers."

• 1:05:50Danielle LaRock?

  Kermit wrote to Bell of how different they were in both appearance and behavior and made note of how sad he felt for them at the thought of their inevitable conquer. On top of the heightened nerves and worry of attack, tension within the team was also running high as morale dipped and conditions worsened. After splitting ways with Father Zom and Fiala and taking stock of their remaining supplies, Roosevelt and Rondon had their first true realization of how woefully unprepared this expedition truly was. Leaving the prep work to those two men resulted in a haphazard, uninformed, and very backward stock of supplies, and as a result, rations were adjusted. And like I said, the team is undergoing a lot of additions, subtractions, it's ebbing

• 1:06:33Danielle LaRock?

  and flowing, it's hard to keep up with, but at this Point in time, the team consisted now of about two dozen people and the 16 of them that were doing the hardest labor, you know, the the porters and people who are lugging the most equipment would receive a larger share of their already slim supplies, leaving Roosevelt, Kermit, and the other officers ration slashed, a decision that Roosevelt was very adamant about sticking to. The discovery of the unpreparedness and the true like, oh shit moment of realizing what they were actually equipped with put a very real time clock on this expedition. If they were to survive, they needed to not only make it to the river, they had to successfully

• 1:07:17Danielle LaRock?

  navigate it and discover a route out of the deepest rainforest on earth. And now they had to do it fast. The group now found themselves at the spot of Rondon's furthest reached location. Up until this point, despite the remote and wild nature of the terrain that they had traversed so far, Rondon had been at least somewhat familiar with it geographically and culturally. But now, as they looked into the inky turbulent waters of the River of Doubt, that small semblance of comfort was gone. They were at the point of true unknown and also the point of no return. Once they launched their boats into the swift currents, there would be no turning back. And speaking of boats, because perhaps I didn't mention this before, while they were abandoning

• 1:08:02Danielle LaRock?

  items, they also left behind, of all things, their boats. They began

• 1:08:08Danielle LaRock?

  No, stop. How did they leave behind their boats for a river exploration?

• 1:08:14Danielle LaRock?

  Let me tell you. They began with way more than were necessary, including two 800-pound motorboats and a plethora of different canoes and various watercraft. But as the men stood at the shores of the river, they were without a single one. As a solution, Rondon purchased seven dugouts from the Nambacuaras. They were massive, weighing over 2,500 pounds each. It's like, okay, we can't take these two 800-pound boats.

• 1:08:44Danielle LaRock?

  But we'll get these ones.

• 1:08:45Danielle LaRock?

  But we'll get these ones. It was because they legitimate, they couldn't carry them.

• 1:08:50Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. How are you gonna carry those through the terrain you were talking about before?

• 1:08:56Danielle LaRock?

  And they did send a couple with people, including Father Zam and Fiala and other people who turned back, like with some of those in other tributaries and rivers at certain points. That's how they turned back. They used boats to get back.

• 1:09:11Danielle LaRock?

  Gotcha.

• 1:09:11Danielle LaRock?

  But still, like, and Rondon was like, okay, well, I have a solution. We'll just buy some once we get there. Cause I know at this point in time, there's a small village at this point that I've gotten to. I'll secure us some, some boats.

• 1:09:26Danielle LaRock?

  How did they buy it?

• 1:09:28Danielle LaRock?

  I don't, Rondon had either money or trade or the relationships that he had already established.

• 1:09:33Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I imagine, I just don't imagine them using money, but maybe I'm wrong.

• 1:09:37Danielle LaRock?

  Right. I don't know. Whatever is, is monetarily valuable or valuable, I should say.

• 1:09:43Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Danielle LaRock?

  You know, to what they need.

• 1:09:46Danielle LaRock?

  Gotcha.

• 1:09:47Danielle LaRock?

  Trade is probably, uh, the answer there.

• 1:09:50Danielle LaRock?

  Trade more of our supplies.

• 1:09:52Danielle LaRock?

  So they're like, we can't carry it anyway. You can have it. So yeah, these dugouts were massive. They're about 2,500 pounds each. They were clumsy, near impossible to maneuver in the water and laborious to portage. Because remember, like, this isn't just like, let's go and it's going to be smooth sailing. Like where they have to take their boats in and out of the water, navigate around things.

• 1:10:15Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 1:10:16Danielle LaRock?

  They have all their, their supplies still. I mean, not everything, but they still have a ton of stuff. Several of them were damaged upon purchase and their buoyancy would hardly make do. Fully loaded with men and supplies left mere inches of space between where the men sat to the surface of the water and the multitude of dangers it presented and concealed. After a few days dedicated to further consolidation, rearranging and parsing down of supplies on February 27th, 1914, Roosevelt, Kermit, Rondon and their men climbed aboard their dugouts, grabbed their paddles and pushed offshore into the waters of the River of Doubt and straight into the uncharted and unknown.

• 1:10:59Danielle LaRock?

  Ahead lay adventure, disaster, new discoveries, near-death experiences and murder. They couldn't know all of what was to come and to whom. They just knew the only way out now was through. And that is where I'm going to leave you for part one.

• 1:11:15Danielle LaRock?

  Man, I knew you were about to end it just by the way you were talking the last couple of sentences. I was like, oh no, she's, she's stopping. She's doing it. Especially when you said, and murder. Murder. Yeah. So, uh, that's, that's that on that for now. Well, I'm hooked. I'm in. I need to know what happens next. It's already gone horribly wrong, uh, and nothing bad, really bad has happened yet. So I'm intrigued, I'm intrigued. Good. I'm glad. So we will see you all next week for part two, hopefully of two. But we'll see. I mean, there's a lot going on, but I definitely recommend this book. It's so good.

• 1:11:59Danielle LaRock?

  And I've, there's a interview I'll link in the episode description with the author of the book. She sits down and really speaks not only about the book, but I mean, she took, I think she took 10 years to write this. And she visited a lot of these places, which is now the Pontenhal region of Brazil. And she met with, it's so cool. She, she met with, um, not just the descendants of these, the Numbacuaras that we're gonna, that we're talking about, but also other indigenous tribes that come into the story later. And they all remember this expedition because it's like legend in their tribes, you know? Interesting.

• 1:12:38Danielle LaRock?

  And just, it's just so interesting. And she's so passionate and knowledgeable about this expedition. And she goes into a lot of detail. I mean, that interview is like over an hour long. So if you don't want to read a 500 ish page book, you can watch that if you're interested in learning more. But yeah, so there's that for now. Cool. Well, we'll see you all next week for this episode. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch your back. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark Book Club,

• 1:13:18Danielle LaRock?

  live streams, Discord, and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at National Park After Dark.

• 1:13:50Speaker 04

  The mighty dollar. Once upon a time, it had a whole menu named after it. Now, no more. But $1 a day lets you add Progressive Renters Insurance to your auto insurance. Definitely something your younger self would roll their eyes at, but your current adulting self appreciates. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Average premium cost based on Progressive Home data from 2025. Product and prices may vary by state.