Episode 336

Rebekah Gould was young, beautiful, and murdered in a quiet Arkansas town. Her case haunted the internet for years—until a confession surfaced. But instead of answers, it raised a far darker question: what if the truth is still being hidden? Get instant access to all episodes, including premium unreleased episodes, commercial-free at swordandscale.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Boudet?

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• 0:43Mike Boudet?

  on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave a lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed ZOLAR, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  ZOLAR 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking ZOLAR, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to ZOLAR. ZOLAR may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. ZOLAR should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. ZOLAR is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolar.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about ZOLAR.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  This is an advertisement for ZOLAR paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

• 2:27Speaker 04

  Listen, man, you know, I, I, I, I'm telling you, you know, I, I'm confessing to you, I'm telling you that I did it. Would you arrest me?

• 2:37Mike Boudet?

  Welcome to season 13, episode 336 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real.

• 3:09Mike Boudet?

  You know, the show gets a lot better when you stop complaining and just enjoy it. I'm not going to start talking like you do in, I don't know, Northern Michigan, or West Appalachia, or God forsaken Ohio. You're not going to be able to get me to talk exactly how you talk in your little specific local town, so just stop. You can't control everything. Just stop trying to control everything.

• 3:39Mike Boudet?

  You're probably saying it wrong anyway.

• 3:44Mike Boudet?

  It's usually a word that comes from a different language and shit. Y'all saying it in Ohioan.

• 3:54Mike Boudet?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on the off-road-ready Tacoma, or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and long-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventures, and the rugged style for everything in between. Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus available hybrid power on many models,

• 4:39Mike Boudet?

  you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave a lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 5:25Mike Boudet?

  In a small newsroom in Batesville, Arkansas, George Jared was a brand-new 20-something-year-old journalist. It was September of 2004. He was still learning the rhythm of leads, stories, and deadlines. Most reporters expect stories to come and go. That's the nature of the job. Research it, write about it, and move on. Maybe go get a peppermint latte from Starbucks before they take them off the menu. But every so often, a case doesn't let go. Or maybe there's just something about a certain personality type that just can't let it go.

• 6:06Mike Boudet?

  For George, that case arrived just as his career began.

• 6:12Speaker 05

  I'd been there maybe seven months. I was just out of college. And, you know, most of the stuff I would cover would be like school board meetings and, you know, city council stuff. And, you know, I'd get to do features at local schools and whatnot. And then one, I remember very vividly, it was a Wednesday morning. Phone rings at my desk. Pick it up, and a woman was on the phone. And she said, "My niece is missing, and we can't find her." And I said, "Really?"

• 6:36Mike Boudet?

  George jumped in his car and drove straight to where the woman said she was calling from, the Isard County Sheriff's Office.

• 6:43Speaker 05

  And then I walked over to some family members. And Rebecca's mother handed me a missing poster that I still have to this day. It's sitting in the other room.

• 6:53Mike Boudet?

  The missing girl was 22-year-old Rebecca Gould.

• 6:57Speaker 05

  And so immediately I start talking to Rebecca's mother and her, one of her sisters. And I just flipped the missing poster over on its other side and I put it up against the building. And I just started taking notes on the back and those notes are still there. And then I walked over to her father, Dr. Larry Gould, and he was standing with another one of his daughters. And that's how I first met him. And I just, I was out with them the whole week that she was missing. That's how it started.

• 7:27Mike Boudet?

  Apparently Rebecca had arrived in the small town of Melbourne, Arkansas on Saturday, September 18th, to visit her boyfriend, Casey McCullough. She was on break from college, but it wasn't unusual for her to take a few days off to see friends. Rebecca's mother told George she'd talked with her daughter on the phone just the day before. But during their call, Rebecca realized she was about to run out of minutes. So she told her mom she'd call back. That call never came. When police searched Casey's house, everything looked fairly normal until they reached the back bedroom, the room Casey and Rebecca would sleep in.

• 8:09Mike Boudet?

  Inside, they found a blood-soaked mattress that had been stripped and propped up against the wall. The box springs remained, and it too was stained red. The bedclothes were spinning around in the washing machine, wet fabric mixed with bleach and blood. Interestingly, any fingerprints on the washing machine had been wiped away, probably with the brand-new cleaning supplies that sat on the kitchen counter. Back in the bedroom again, sections of carpeting had to be cut up and taken in for evidence. The amount of blood was so extreme and had seeped into the subfloor.

• 8:49Mike Boudet?

  At this point detectives knew they'd be searching for a dead body, not an alive Rebecca.

• 8:56Speaker 05

  And you know, Monday morning came, one week later on September 27th, 2004. I was at the office, probably five or six o'clock in the morning. I got there really early. And I just decided, for some reason, I felt like I needed to go back to Melbourne. Cause my office was about 25 or so miles away. And so I drove down there. There were some ladies walking around the courthouse, you know, kind of a southern thing to walk around, you know, the courthouse in the morning. And I overheard, as I was walking past them, I was gonna go talk to the county judge and I was gonna see if they were coordinating their search efforts that day. Cause the county's big and it's very rural and it's very mountainous and so it's, it's hard.

• 9:38Speaker 05

  And I overheard a lady say, "Hey, they're out searching over by my house, my property or my house," something like that. And I said, "Where do you live?" And she said that she lived down Highway 9, which is a thoroughfare that connects Melbourne to Mountain View, which is Rebecca's hometown. It's very treacherous.

• 9:55Mike Boudet?

  20 years ago, George still had that restless, new reporter energy. This case had already begun to dig its claws into him. He knew he had to go help with the search efforts.

• 10:06Speaker 05

  And so I drove down there. I saw a line of cars on the side of the road. Just pulled in behind them, got out. It was very steep, you know, lots of trees and bushes. I saw a searcher and I asked him, I said, "You guys out here looking for Rebecca?" And he says, "She's right there." And he pointed at her and she was just laying there.

• 10:34Mike Boudet?

  Volunteers had already been searching for days, but on this particular day, at this spot about five miles outside of Melbourne, they noticed vultures circling overhead. Never a good sign.

• 10:48Mike Boudet?

  Searchers located Rebecca's severely decomposed body about 35 feet down the embankment. She was wearing only a tee shirt and underwear.

• 10:58Speaker 05

  You can see her hair was like over her head, like her face. I mean, what I didn't realize at the time, it literally had decomposed off of her scalp and had just moved down. It almost looked like, you know, like if you flipped, if you have long hair and you just flipped it over like that. I was in an absolute shock. Like I was like, it was like being in a tunnel. That's the only way I could describe it. Like, all of a sudden, I couldn't hear anything. I couldn't see anything. My heart was racing. My head just was throbbing, you know. At the time, I had two very small kids. And so I'm sitting here thinking, I've just talked to this mom and this dad and they're hoping, I hope that this isn't what happened. A few minutes later, I drive back to the sheriff's department, which, as the

• 11:41Speaker 05

  crow flies, is only four or five miles from this place where she was dumped. And her father, Dr. Larry Gould, came running up to me and he grabbed me and he said, "Did they find my daughter?" And I said, "Larry, you need to go talk to the sheriff right now." And he grabbed me and he said, "Did they find my daughter?" And I said, "Yes." And he just collapsed, went to his knees, started crying, put his head in my stomach. And this is a man I hadn't even, I'd known him for five days.

• 12:09Mike Boudet?

  Rebecca was gone forever. And for a few days, time stopped. At least for the people who had hoped she'd come home alive.

• 12:18Speaker 05

  I can honestly say that I was never the same person after that. I remember, I wrote, when I wrote the story, I wrote it, I went back to the office that night and I stayed till four o'clock in the morning writing it. And it was, the newspaper office was this old creaky building, it was a huge building. And if the wind blew, you know, you hear all these creaking sounds. And I was just sitting there with her missing poster sitting on my desk. And I wrote, I've written about this before. I've never, every single resume that I've ever submitted after this, attached that resume was a story I wrote about her case. And she never left me. It was in my soul after that.

• 13:00Mike Boudet?

  Everyone's focus shifted to finding Rebecca's killer.

• 13:04Mike Boudet?

  While the medical examiner did the autopsy, investigators turned their attention to the trailer where she had last been seen.

• 13:11Speaker 05

  She was on, she had an on-again, off-again boyfriend named Casey McCullough. And she would come back, you know, she was living up in northwest Arkansas at this point. She'd come back and see him on the weekend. She'd stay at his house. They were just kind of on-again, off-again. You know how it is when you're that age, you know, 22 and you know, you're dating someone, you know, and he obviously was not a long-term thing for her. There's, she was quite a catch for him. I guess I'll just put it that way. And he was obsessed with her. He was totally in love with her. But weirdly, when she vanished, he didn't spend one second looking for her.

• 13:45Speaker 06

  And Tim, how did you come to know Rebecca? Uh, we worked at Sonic together and the very first day that she worked at Sonic, I thought she was the most beautiful creature I've ever seen. So, you know,

• 13:56Speaker 06

  that's when we started talking. And how long did you live with Rebecca? For about two, two months. Okay. And after that, did the relationship, uh, did y'all split up or what took place? Um, well, we did split up. We decided that, you know, it'd be better for just stay friends and that's what we did. We still spend a awful lot of time together.

• 14:20Speaker 05

  She would live with certain people at certain times, um, you know, and she kind of bounced around a little bit, but then she finally decided that she wanted to go into pharmaceutical sales. And so she, um, she had a sister that was already going to school up in Fayetteville, which is about, I don't know, three hours or so from Melbourne. So she moved up there and she moved in with her sister in an apartment and she started attending a local, uh, community college and she started taking classes. And so she was 22 and she was just trying to get her life together.

• 14:51Mike Boudet?

  The previous spring, Rebecca and Casey's relationship had been pretty serious. Casey was head over heels for her, which brought out the controlling side of them. That didn't work well with Rebecca's fiery personality. By the end of the summer, things had become a little messy. On her drive from northwest Arkansas to Melbourne, Rebecca told her sister that this would be her final trip.

• 15:16Speaker 05

  She told her sister, she's like, "I'm done. This is it." And then they stop off at their dad's house. He gives them each a hundred dollar bill, um, on their way to Melbourne. And she tells her father, she says, "I'm done with Casey. It's over. We're done."

• 15:30Mike Boudet?

  Detectives often use an investigative strategy called Cantor and Larkin's Circle Theory. It's a fancy way of saying that most offenders don't stray far from home when they commit a crime. They stick to what they know, neighborhoods they've been in, routes they're comfortable with, places that feel familiar. So investigators start looking close to the victim. Family, partners, roommates. Then they widen the lens to include friends, coworkers, casual acquaintances. And if that still turns up nothing, only then do they start to consider strangers. With this in mind, you'd think the first person in the hot seat would be the boyfriend.

• 16:15Mike Boudet?

  It's always the boyfriend, right? Arkansas State Police didn't think so. Instead, they zeroed in on an old friend of Rebecca's.

• 16:24Speaker 05

  The main suspect for years and years and years and years was Chris Cantrell. And he was just this guy who was involved in a local, you know, kind of drug scene. You know, he, I don't think he sold a lot of drugs, but he consumed them, he'd get in trouble for it. And this guy, I mean, you're not talking about somebody who has the sophistication probably to, you know, wipe their own DNA from a crime scene or get rid of all their fingerprints and all this other stuff. Because the story was is that he, he killed her over like a very small drug debt, like, and I'm talking like forty dollars, which was really weird because she had at least that much money in her possession when she was killed.

• 17:07Speaker 05

  So if that was the motive, why didn't he take some of her stuff or her cash? Or, and the second problem with it was, was that, you know, I've written about assassinations, you know, where somebody is, you know, you're, you're, you're involved in the drug trade and we're going to get rid of you. And that involves something very simple. They come with a gun, they shoot you in the head, they leave, they don't do anything else, and they walk away.

• 17:33Mike Boudet?

  Rebecca's autopsy report remained unreleased for years. Even today, only a few people have a copy of it. The report suggests that she was likely bludgeoned. It's hard to tell if there were any defensive wounds. She'd been exposed to the elements for a week and her body was very badly decomposed. Rebecca had two clear blunt force injuries, one to the left side of her head and one that was a direct hit on the center of her face. Experts and medical professionals who have read and analyzed the report say that neither of those injuries would have killed her immediately. In fact, it's very possible that Rebecca was alive for hours after the killer hit

• 18:17Mike Boudet?

  her. Even worse, she could have been alive when her body was dumped down the embankment. As for the weapon, the autopsy pointed to something long, thin, and heavy, something like a tire iron or a bat. And in the house where Rebecca disappeared, police noticed something strange. The piano, yeah, there was a piano, the piano was missing one of its legs.

• 18:47Speaker 05

  This story that this guy shows up at this house out in the middle of nowhere that he's never been before, doesn't bring a weapon, he's like, hmm, gee, I wonder if the, oh, I wonder if the piano leg will come off of this piano over here. Okay, whoa, here we go. Yeah, I mean, it was just this ridiculous, stupid, like, are you kidding me story? Like, come on.

• 19:04Mike Boudet?

  A guy named Dennis was the Arkansas State Police Detective working the case. This man was hell-bent on pushing the Chris Cantrell story, and he wouldn't give up. Ego is a hell of a drug.

• 19:17Speaker 05

  Well, Dennis was a narcotics officer. They had a working theory that drugs were somehow involved in this, even though no drugs were found in their system that they could find. And he had dealt with Chris in the past, and I've always said this about Dennis, it's one of my favorite sayings, you know, if you're born a hammer, every problem in the world has to be a nail. There's no other, it can't be a screw, it can't be a, you know, a tack, it's got to be a nail. So that's what he turns this case into. Dennis gets the case, I think in November, December, and then he starts to focus in on Chris Cantrell. And it was pretty widely known by like June, July of 2005, that they were focusing on Chris.

• 20:01Speaker 05

  I mean, that was clear, that was out in the public. People talked about it.

• 20:05Mike Boudet?

  There were other suspects along the way, and people in town gossiped about the possibility that Rebecca's boyfriend Casey was the real killer. But this detective wouldn't hear any of it. He refused to look into any tips or reanalyze any of the existing evidence. But a lot of it pointed straight to Casey McCullough.

• 20:26Speaker 05

  I mean, I spent, you know, years just befuddled by the detective because, you know, you automatically assume that they know more than you know because they've got the case file. And there must be, I had, there had to be something in there that was really pointing them away from him.

• 20:42Mike Boudet?

  George didn't get his hands on the case file until years later. But by the time he'd read it, this detective decided to pay him a surprise visit. Armed with all the original evidence, this turned out to be a perfect opportunity for George to ask Dennis why he was so focused on the wrong suspect.

• 21:00Speaker 05

  And I'm not kidding you. This guy, this detective, snuck into a book signing of mine one time in these cutoff Daisy Duke looking shorts, cutoff flannel shirt. I mean, like, I'm not going to notice this dude coming in here. I pitch him the book because I didn't recognize him at this point. And then, as I said, do you want to buy a book? He's like, he's like, no, I'm Special Agent Dennis Simons with the Arkansas State Police. He pulls out his badge and I looked at him. I'm like, okay, Dennis, I haven't seen you in years. But, you know, come on. And he tells me, I can't, I told him, I said, I don't understand something here. Why would he clean up the mess? Why wouldn't he just take a match and torch the place? And he said, George, if you had the case file,

• 21:44Speaker 05

  you'd know exactly why this person did this thing. And I'm like, okay, well, we have the case file now. And it's even more incomprehensible.

• 21:55Mike Boudet?

  This Dennis character sure does remind me of Lieutenant Jim Dangle from Reno 911. Can you picture it? Life imitates art, I guess. Rebecca's case swirled around in George's mind for years, and all the while, it had become a closed loop. He wrote articles about the case and about various theories, but law enforcement was holding all of the information under lock and key. They held no press conferences and gave no updates. Fourteen years passed with no progress. When Rebecca's father tried to request a copy of her autopsy report, officials denied it,

• 22:36Mike Boudet?

  citing the case was still active. George kept writing articles, web sleuths discussed the case to death, and by 2018, a woman named Catherine Townsend hoped to put even more eyes on this mystery by doing a podcast. Rebecca was murdered in this woman's hometown, so she traveled back there, lived in the community for six months, and did her own investigation.

• 23:03Speaker 07

  I first heard about a podcast called Hell and Gone in late 2018.

• 23:09Mike Boudet?

  This is Jen Buchholz. She's a former US Army counterintelligence agent who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. She now teaches forensic science at American Military University and works as a cold case investigator for Colorado's El Paso County Sheriff's Office.

• 23:28Speaker 07

  And it was my content editor at the university who, we would go back and forth sometimes about new podcasts and cases, and sometimes I'd write about different cases. And she was like, "You really should listen to Hell and Gone. I think you're gonna find that case really interesting. Maybe you want to write about it." And so, of course, she was correct. And I binged it. And George was featured in several of the episodes. So I thought, "Well, I'll reach out to this George guy. He clearly knows the case really well." And so, I very carefully crafted this email to him. Whatever I wrote, which I don't totally remember now, caught his attention because he called me pretty much right away. And then we ended up on the phone for three hours and 22 minutes, I believe, our first conversation. And so, it was like, "Oh, yeah, we're gonna work on this case, I think."

• 24:11Speaker 07

  I don't know, we had very similar mindset, was the behaviors that this killer took and...

• 24:18Speaker 07

  The importance of understanding those behaviors and what they meant about the relationship between the killer and victim. Very clear that the detective at the time had no idea about criminal profiling or behavioral analysis. And it was really being overlooked. And that was like, one of my key points in reaching out to George. And as you'll hear, he had the same thoughts through the years.

• 24:39Mike Boudet?

  Jen Buchholz spent years working as a private investigator before stepping into her current role in cold case investigations. Now embedded within a police department, she sees a sharp divide, maybe even a distrust between law enforcement and civilian investigators. In many cases, police simply won't accept outside help. Again, ego is a hell of a drug. Rebecca's father, Dr. Larry Gould, learned that the hard way. He spent thousands on private investigators over the years, but law enforcement never seemed interested in what they uncovered. Here's Dr. Gould.

• 25:19Speaker 06

  The law enforcement officers that to me are truly the real professionals are the ones that reach out to the public and they ask for help. The ones that reach out and say, uh, that they don't use their ego. They say, I'm the officer, I'm in charge of this case, help me. Now, there's somebody I respect. And there's no reason to not be that way, especially nowadays. There's a lot of unsolved murders that the public can get involved with. There's a lot of the public that loves to get involved with these types of cases because they feel sincerely like they can help and that they can offer something.

• 25:57Mike Boudet?

  And this is where the internet proves its worth, to some degree. Perhaps. Ugh, I can't believe I just said that. In case after case, it's not a detective who breathes new life into a forgotten file. It's a podcast, it's a subreddit, it's a web forum, or a Facebook group, or even a TikTok channel, where some web sleuth, usually a middle-aged woman, I might add, that has so much time on their hands and so much empathy in their heart that they have to do something with it. So, they focus on their favorite hobby. They dig into parts of a cold case that no one ever seemed to be able to uncover, not even Lieutenant Jim Dank, I mean...

• 26:42Mike Boudet?

  Dennis.

• 26:43Speaker 07

  It's a lesson learned by us that can be passed on to other, not just private investigators or citizens, but law enforcement agencies too. Like, keep an eye on social media sites for your victim. See if any of your suspects are in there. Like, I do it at work.

• 26:59Mike Boudet?

  Because sometimes, the killer does come back to the scene of the crime. Only in Rebecca's case, the scene was now virtual.

• 27:24Mike Boudet?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on the off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and long-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventures, and the rugged style for everything in between. Or, discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus available hybrid power

• 28:08Mike Boudet?

  on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave a lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. ShopToyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota. Let's go places.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair

• 29:36Speaker 02

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 29:39Mike Boudet?

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• 30:43Mike Boudet?

  By the fall of 2018, Rebecca Gould's case sat unsolved for nearly 14 years. The crime scene had been cleaned. The man she was last seen with had quietly receded into the shadows. And the Arkansas State Police Special Agent was borderline obsessed with pinning the whole crime on the wrong guy. But then, something shifted. A podcast called Hell and Gone started digging into the case. The show gave the public a voice, and it gave the story new life online. One of the podcast's fans was a former Army counterintelligence agent named Jen Buchholz.

• 31:28Mike Boudet?

  Another was George Jared, the very reporter who had watched Rebecca's body be pulled from the embankment. When these two connected, they spent hours on the phone. Soon after, they created a Facebook group. The plan was not just to rehash the case, but to solve it, once and for all.

• 31:49Speaker 07

  Well, me and George were the admins, and we set the group settings so that it's a public group, anybody can find it, but you have to request to join, because we always want to keep track of who's joining. So, you know, one of our goals, and I guess subconsciously, one of our goals in making the group was to lure the killer in there, or somebody who knew something.

• 32:12Mike Boudet?

  The Facebook group grew quickly. At this point, neither the police's case file nor Rebecca's autopsy had been made available to the public yet. This meant that the host of the Hell and Gone podcast had to piece the story together using rumors and gossip from people in town. By the time Catherine Townsend aired the final episode of season one, the narrative had shifted away from small-town gossip and toward a deeper, darker truth. This was never about random drifters or drug deals. This looked like a crime of passion and a cleanup that took time and work.

• 32:54Speaker 05

  So, here's the thing about this case. We don't have a definitive time of death for Rebecca.

• 33:03Speaker 05

  This is the working theory, the prosecutorial theory about what happened is on that Monday morning, Rebecca takes Casey to work because his father had borrowed Casey's truck the night before. Casey needed a ride, so she drops him off at the Sonic that morning. Then she goes back to his house to collect up all her things. She had a little Pomeranian dog and she had her clothes. And she brought two big suitcases because she had told her father and her sister Danielle that this was going to be the last time that she came to Casey's house. And so she brought an extra suitcase because she had some personal items over there at the house. And so it's during this timeframe, that morning, when she's collecting up all this stuff.

• 33:46Speaker 05

  That's when the police and the prosecutors think that she was murdered. And so I will say this, there is absolutely no proof of life on Monday morning. There's none. And for years, we were led to believe that there was a video in a convenience store that she stopped off and got a coffee and a breakfast sandwich. And so we thought there was all this evidence, you know, that she was there. The problem is, is that none of that stuff was true. So there's no proof of life Monday morning, but that's the official story.

• 34:18Mike Boudet?

  Just to fill in some gaps, the day Rebecca went missing, Casey's father had borrowed his truck. So he was carless and needed transportation to and from work. He worked at Sonic, by the way. We know Rebecca's plan was to quietly pack her things and dump his ass that day. But Casey was clueless about this. Or was he? Did he find out? Was there a subsequent altercation? This is where things get really suspicious and a little messy.

• 34:52Speaker 05

  So he asked a group of four friends, people that he was friends with. They were going to go to the movies that night and they were going to go see the movie Resident Evil 2. And so he asked them if he could ride with them. And they were all kind of surprised by it because he was kind of a recluse. He didn't like to hang out with anybody. And so he went down to Batesville that night. They watched the movie, they go into some stores. He was clearly trying to make himself available to cameras that were in, you know, like, they went to a Walmart to look at Halloween decorations and they went to some other places. And it was clear that he was trying to make himself visible on these cameras. And then at one point in the night, he gets a call. And during this call, he used his friend's phone to make this call, by the way, didn't

• 35:36Speaker 05

  use his own phone. After he hangs up, he tells all four of these friends that Rebecca is missing.

• 35:43Speaker 07

  He used his friend's phone to call his own voicemail, so he didn't actually talk to anybody, he listened to his messages, whatever they were, and then got off the phone and told his friends that Rebecca is missing.

• 35:54Speaker 05

  Now, here's the problem. She wasn't reported missing until the next morning at 8:30 in the morning by her mother. The second part of it is, all four friends in all four of their statements to police said that he was obsessed with her, and I'm paraphrasing this, that he was obsessed with her and they were all shocked that he wasn't running out the door to go and find her. And so what he did instead is he went to his friend's house, smoked some marijuana, played some video games, and fell asleep on the couch.

• 36:23Speaker 06

  Are you suspicious yet, fellow web sleuth? She dropped you at work just a little past eight. Mm-hmm, a little past eight, and I just, all I remember is standing by and following each other and waiting, and that's the last time I saw Rebecca. Did you have any contact with her by telephone? No, sir, I tried. Have you talked with her since Monday morning at 8 o'clock? About the last time I talked to her. You haven't seen her since then? Haven't seen her since. So, did you plan on seeing her before she went back? Yes, she, she was supposed to come back and, and pick me up from work to go pick up my truck from Batesville. And did she show up? No, sir, she didn't. What time was she supposed to pick you up? Uh, 4:00. And then you came back to Oxford.

• 37:07Speaker 06

  At any time, uh, since you left there, did you go back to your house at any time that night? No, sir. Did you ever go back there to get some clothing items, a shirt, a pants, anything like that? No, sir. Never went back to the house? That night? Oh, no. Okay. What time did you leave Oxford, that house, and come to work the next morning? Uh, about 7:30.

• 37:30Speaker 06

  Get to work at eight and what, how long did you stay at work? Um, I stayed there for about ten, fifteen minutes. I, I called Rebecca's mom to see if she had heard from Rebecca. Because, you know, I haven't yet. And she said she sounded really worried and freaking out and so I asked, um, my manager, Daniel, if I could go down to the house and see if she was there. Tell me what you find when you get to your house. I drive up and I see her car, so I'm thinking she's there and she's safe, um, inside and I, I walk in and I see her dog, which, which gives me a little bit more, um, what's the word I'm looking for, insurance. What's significant about the dog being here? Um, that if she's there, then she's, Rebecca's gotta be there because Rebecca goes nowhere without that dog.

• 38:17Speaker 06

  I walked in, I checked our room, I'm gonna call it our room because it is, um, and, um.

• 38:23Mike Boudet?

  Whoa, did you catch that? Tell me you caught that. When we walked into our room, I call it our room because it is. That's what he said. No need to be so, uh, defensive there, buddy. We weren't questioning your relationship status.

• 38:41Speaker 06

  No sheets on the bed, nobody's in there and I thought it was very odd, no sheets on the bed because she just washed them the week earlier. And I would say we washed them, but again, um, I looked through the whole house, uh, again, double back in every room and I didn't see anything and I was, well, it appeared to me, I thought it was on the clock because I posted in, that thing doesn't work all the time. And, um, so I, I took off back towards Sonic. Okay, was her car there? Her car was there. Okay, did you see anything like her flippers or anything like that in the house? Yes, I saw her, her pink flippers.

• 39:17Mike Boudet?

  These are all clips from Casey's first interview with police. He tells them that he never went back to the house that day, the day Rebecca went missing. It was the next morning that he said he drove back home by himself to search the trailer for clues.

• 39:32Speaker 05

  One day I was driving through Melbourne and I saw him outside smoking a cigarette in the parking lot. This is probably eight or nine months after the murder. And so I just pulled my truck in, got out, and I just confronted him. I said, so tell me what happened. And he told me that he never went to the, back to his house before he went with the police. And so he lied. When we get the case file, not only did he not notice that his room, and I'm not, I don't think I'm exaggerating, it looked like a tornado had gone through his room. I mean, there was stuff broken everywhere. I mean, it was a mirror off kilter, off the closet. There were bloody pillows in plain sight. He admitted in his first interview with the police that he did go to the washing machine,

• 40:17Speaker 05

  open it up, and it's full of bedding with blood all over it. The, you know, like the, what's that thing, the agitator? There was bloody water in there, the, like the bleach dispenser thing was completely caked, caked with blood. And he just puts the lid down, gets in his truck, and drives back to work like nothing happened.

• 40:37Speaker 06

  Did you subsequently go back after your house with the deputy? I asked him, I said, do you just want to follow me? And so I was, and he just followed me all the way there. And when you got there with the police, I take it, looked in the, in your house? Yes, he, I let him freely walk through the house. I showed him that her belongings were still there, how it's very odd, that she really never, ever leaves without it. And he walked into the back room, checked under the mattress, and found some blood. And I really didn't know where it came from. That's when I started getting really scared, didn't know what to think. Then after we checked the mattress, he turned around and checked the washer. When we checked the washer, we saw just a little bitty film of something red.

• 41:22Speaker 06

  We didn't know if it was blood or not, but we noticed, and we tried to put two and two together, that, you know, the sheets were on the bed. Let me ask you this, Casey, what do you think has happened to Rebecca?

• 41:35Speaker 06

  I think she was killed.

• 41:38Speaker 06

  I don't know who did it.

• 41:40Speaker 07

  So Monday night is when he tells his friend she's missing and whatever. So Tuesday morning, he had spent the night at his friend's house. He hadn't gone home. Tuesday morning goes to work for a shift at Sonic. Well, for some reason, he didn't have his Sonic shirt, even though he worked the day prior. So his boss is like, you gotta go home and get a Sonic shirt. You gotta be in uniform. So he was forced to go home Tuesday morning to his residence and he walks in, you know, her car's there, her purse, her dog. The mattress is flipped. There's bloody sheets in the washer, all this stuff. I mean, broken ashtrays, broken mirrors. And he grabs a shirt and just goes back to work. And so, and then later on said he didn't notice that anything, you know, was amiss, which is impossible. I mean, you can't. After we got the crime scene photos, you're like, yeah, there's no way you could,

• 42:25Speaker 07

  like, how would you go in your room? And his bed was moved to cover a big blood stain on the carpet. Like, you can't tell me you didn't notice your bed's in a different position in the room and it's been stripped and all this stuff. You already said the night prior she's missing and you go home to this mess. Why aren't you immediately calling police, you know?

• 42:43Mike Boudet?

  If the lies, the changing timeline and Casey's strange behavior weren't bad enough, just wait, it gets worse.

• 42:51Speaker 05

  Well, it's even more suspicious because he confessed to hurting her. He, in, let's see, April of 2010 or 2011, they're not quite sure what year. And so he was working on like these towers. He was climbing towers. And he was, one night, he and two other people were in a hotel room. One, one of them is Tad Hickerson, and he signed this one affidavit to this. Where they're all in a hotel room, they're drinking. He starts crying and tells them that he hurt Rebecca, that he had hit her with some type of a wooden object, that he had hurt her.

• 43:33Speaker 05

  And they were, of course, they were thought he was just, you know, full of it. They're like, well, the police have cleared you, you know? How could this be possible? And he said that they, the reason that he was getting away with it was because their timeline was off, but they couldn't figure that out. So the next day, Tad still thinks, you know, he was just drunk and crying and feeling guilty and all this other stuff. Well, now they're sober. And so Tad asks Casey, he said, so tell me what happened? And he said that she said something to him. Like said something like mockingly to him, like laughed at him or scoffed at him. And he just flew into a rage, hit her twice. He said he threw the wooden object, which, you know, we believe could be a piano leg.

• 44:16Speaker 05

  That's, you know, obviously missing that he threw it into the White River. And that he said, well, what mistake did you make? And he said, cleaning up the mess.

• 44:25Mike Boudet?

  By when exactly was the evidence cleaned from the trailer? According to police, Rebecca was killed sometime on Monday, September 18th, after she dropped Casey off at work. And Casey had an alibi for that time period. He was working at Sonic all day. Then was seen on camera, hanging out with friends in the evening.

• 44:48Speaker 07

  So because of that, he Casey was cleared because they assumed she was alive Monday morning. And he was accounted for at work during the hours that they thought she was killed. So he, I mean, Dennis Simons, the detective who was on it for 14 years that botched it. He did publicly clear him, which is always a mistake. You don't clear anybody, but he did publicly clear Casey. So Casey fell off the radar for most people, I think, from that point forward.

• 45:18Mike Boudet?

  It was open and shut. Sherlock and Daisy Dukes had nailed the timeline. Or did he? Jen and George certainly didn't think so. They think Rebecca may have been killed much earlier, perhaps that morning, giving someone plenty of time to erase what couldn't be explained. And that changed everything. If the murder didn't happen when police thought it did, then Casey's alibi wasn't airtight. So fast forward to the year 2019, when fans of the Hell and Gone podcast are in a frenzy, obsessively discussing all these suspicions day and night. Y'all are relentless, I'll tell you.

• 46:02Mike Boudet?

  Well, all this chit chat attracts attention to anyone who's interested. And also their cats. Do I know my audience or do I know my audience?

• 46:12Mike Boudet?

  The Facebook forum continues to grow and grow. And all of a sudden, a new name starts leaving comments in the forum. A guy by the name of William Miller.

• 46:25Speaker 05

  And he was one of the first people to join our Facebook page when we created it in October of 2019. And there's a girl on our crowdsourcing team who's really good at like genealogy, you know, like she's good at putting family trees together. And as soon as he joined our page, and her name is Miranda, and she immediately told us, she said, hey, this guy's the first cousin of Casey's. And we're like, well, okay. We didn't think anything of it because he lived in the Philippines and I think Jen had done a little research on him and figured out pretty quickly that he lived in Aransas Pass, Texas. You know, so we didn't think anything of it. And he was, you know, postulating theories on how she died and he was very active on the page. And we just thought he was a mole for the family, you know, because what had happened

• 47:08Speaker 05

  previously, you know, when Helen Gone came out is these Facebook pages formed and a bunch of family members got on there and people would get into these huge fights and they would say all this stuff. And so we just thought, okay, they don't want to join and get into these, you know, brouhahs. And so they're just going to send in this first cousin, you know, he's kind of, you know, kind of a weirdo anyway. You could just tell that from his messages and stuff like that. But he's living in the Philippines, he's working on oil rigs all over the world, you know, he flies all over the place. He's a very world traveler and he made a lot of money, too. And then I, this may be a coincidence, but I just can't believe that it's a coincidence. Casey's birthday is January 16th.

• 47:49Speaker 05

  So on January 16th of 2020, right before the pandemic starts, William Miller starts sending private DMs to Jen. Now, he had sent me one or two, but I never responded because, I mean, he was Casey's first cousin, so I'm just like, no, who cares? Of course, Jen is a much more thorough investigator than I am, so she started responding to him and asking him questions.

• 48:13Mike Boudet?

  At first, William Miller seemed like any other dedicated member of the group. Curious, passionate, maybe a little too invested. But as Jen talked to him, the tone shifted. The conversations were often long, back-and-forth dialogues. Sometimes William rambled and didn't make much sense. In one message, he claimed he was being targeted by other group members trying to stir up drama. I am being attacked by a few people. They took pics and sent them to Dennis, and he was one of them to blow up on me. He got more paranoid, even defensive. At one point, he wrote, Now he talks shit to me.

• 48:56Mike Boudet?

  I'm sorry to talk like that, but about to block the guy if he keep it up. Hate to be a grammar Nazi here, but anybody know English these days? Anyway, this guy William seemed like he wanted to be helpful. He wanted to be part of the team. He insisted, Sorry if I sound like I am on Casey's side. Maybe I come across that way, but am not. But behind the scenes, Jen was already putting the pieces together. William wasn't just engaging with the case. He was circling it, fixating on details like gloves, DNA, and forensics. No fingerprints, no DNA.

• 49:39Mike Boudet?

  First thing pops in my head is, did he have gloves? Jen's goal was to find out why William was so interested in this case, or at least to see what kind of answer he would give. They knew he was Casey's cousin, and they knew he was being evasive about it. But why?

• 49:59Speaker 05

  And he was lying. He wouldn't tell her what was the relationship to the case. Why was he interested in it? And he just said podcast, and then she asked him what states he'd been to, and he said 50 of them or something like that. And her and I would talk about him some, early on. And then the pandemic hits, and then in September, we found out something very interesting. We did not know. That he was in town the weekend of this hell thing happening. We didn't, we never knew that.

• 50:33Mike Boudet?

  Even more suspicious, they didn't know that William's mother Linda and his brother Jeremy had actually been living in the area at the time of the murder.

• 50:43Speaker 07

  Like, the family kept that way under wraps, which is so telling. Even Casey and his family never divulged that publicly. So I'm like, why are you hiding that?

• 50:55Mike Boudet?

  Jen and George both saw the signs. William Miller was quickly moving up their list of suspects.

• 51:02Speaker 05

  Me and Jen are talking one day and we're just like, this guy could be involved. Like, as soon as we found out that he was there, because our analysis had always pointed towards a male member of the McCullough family. His name is William Miller, but he's as much McCullough as the McCulloughs are. He fit the profile. And it was even more interesting with him because he immediately left. It's like, your cousin's girlfriend vanishes and you don't stick around for a day or two to try to help find her. Of course, at this point, we knew Casey hadn't been trying to find her. And then, I'll never forget this, we kept digging on him. And so we're trying to put this together all through October

• 51:43Speaker 05

  of 2020, and little did we know that the police were on the same track. Because we weren't, we weren't communicating them what we were doing at this point, and they weren't communicating, obviously, with us.

• 51:54Mike Boudet?

  A new detective had been handling the investigation, and it took him only eight months to get his sights set on William Miller. This detective wanted to get William in an interview room, but knowing that William lived overseas, he called his mother Linda. Just so you know, they're going to be referring to William as Billy, by the way.

• 52:19Speaker 05

  Hello?

• 52:21Speaker 06

  Hello, this is Linda Miller and I'm returning your call.

• 52:23Speaker 04

  Hey Linda, how are you doing?

• 52:27Speaker 06

  Doing pretty good, working hard.

• 52:29Speaker 04

  Hanging in there? I didn't know you still worked. You still working?

• 52:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, I take care of a little lady that has Alzheimer's.

• 52:38Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 52:39Speaker 06

  And that can be difficult sometimes.

• 52:41Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. Well, I wanted to reach out to you.

• 52:49Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 52:49Speaker 04

  You know, I'm going through this case file and the, I guess the opinion of of the Arkansas State Police is that they're basically wanting everybody re-interviewed. So I'm going back and I'm going through, you know, all of the documents and trying to trying to accomplish that. And I know that you and Jeremy and Billy were all interviewed back in 2004. And, you know, I just wanted to to reach out to you guys and see what, of course, I get, you know, Billy's in the Philippines. I probably won't be able to

• 53:30Speaker 04

  talk to him for, I don't know if he's planning on coming back anytime soon, or, do you know?

• 53:36Speaker 06

  I don't know.

• 53:37Speaker 04

  Oh, you don't know?

• 53:39Speaker 06

  Things have been crazy with the COVID.

• 53:42Speaker 04

  Right. And you have no idea when Billy might be returning to the States?

• 53:49Speaker 06

  Not right now, not with all the COVID stuff.

• 53:54Speaker 04

  So the last, the last time Billy made it home was sometime last year?

• 53:59Speaker 06

  I, I don't know. I mean, I know he does that for, I know he does that, I'm thinking every year.

• 54:11Speaker 04

  Yeah. Okay. Well, if you would, Linda, get with Jeremy and see if there's, uh, one day.

• 54:20Speaker 06

  We're home at the same time.

• 54:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks, Linda.

• 54:25Speaker 06

  All right, no problem. You have a good day.

• 54:27Speaker 04

  You too.

• 54:27Speaker 06

  Bye bye.

• 54:31Speaker 04

  That was Linda Miller, October 21st, 2020.

• 54:37Speaker 04

  Should be noted that

• 54:40Speaker 06

  Billy Miller is currently in Oregon. He returned from the Philippines a little over a week ago.

• 54:51Mike Boudet?

  It's entirely possible that William, or Bill, or Billy, was sitting right next to his mother, listening to her lie to the detective about his whereabouts during this call. Just a little bit later, probably after having a team meeting with her sons, Linda called the detective back.

• 55:10Speaker 06

  Hello, this is Linda Miller. Hey Linda, how are you? Pretty good. I think we've got everybody coordinated. Where you can get all three of us at one time. Oh, really? Yeah. I've been busy. Well, when's Billy coming back in? Uh, he'll be here November 7th. Uh, that's when we want to have our meeting with you. Okay, November the 7th.

• 55:42Mike Boudet?

  Linda Miller and her two sons believed they were heading into just another round of questioning. What they didn't realize was that every word they spoke would be used to dismantle the lie they'd been upholding for 16 long years.

• 56:17Mike Boudet?

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• 57:02Mike Boudet?

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• 59:28Mike Boudet?

  By the fall of 2020, almost exactly 16 years after her murder, there was a Facebook group rife with theories on Rebecca Gould's case. One of the people offering up ideas was a man named William Miller. Jen Buchholz and George Jared, the two investigators who had taken a personal interest in Rebecca's story, realized pretty quickly that William was Casey McCullough's first cousin. At first, they thought the McCullough family had sent him in as a spy, someone who could figure out just how much the public knew. But the more that William talked, the higher he moved up their suspect list.

• 1:00:11Mike Boudet?

  Coincidentally, Arkansas State Police were coming to the same conclusion in parallel. On November 7, 2020, detectives finally got William into an interview room. His mother and brother sat in the room next door.

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  First off, let me tell you, this is called a non-custodial interview, okay? You've probably never heard of such a thing, but what that means is you came up here voluntarily, you're not being detained, you're free to go at any time that door is not locked. You know, I'm gonna tell you what I told the police down in Texas when they came and stuff. And I'm gonna be honest with you and truthful with you on everything. Maybe I saw something that maybe be a key factor in something there and all that stuff. Right, right. So you're an oilfield worker? I've been working in an oilfield for 23 years. Right. I remember moving mom up there and then she was...

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  Moved into that little house, I, I, it was a couple of miles down the road from Grandpa's property. Yeah, yeah. And you're right, that was about, your mom's house was about two or three miles from the McCullough trailer where this happened. Okay, so, so I've been in that home and all that stuff in... Prior to the homicide? Yes. How many times have you been in that trailer, you think? Maybe two, three times, maybe two or three times, two or three times and stuff. So she was, Rebecca was killed in September of '04, when was the last time you were in that trailer, you think? It was the way before that. Months.

• 1:01:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Mike Boudet?

  William goes on to explain that back in September of 2004, his mother asked him to help her move to Texas with William's younger brother. So, he drove up to Arkansas and arrived on Sunday, the same day Rebecca had gotten into town.

• 1:02:16Speaker 04

  So, in, in the information that was provided to Texas in '04, you said that whenever you showed up in Melbourne, that you went and visited family in the small town. So, that made it sound like that, that you were with your mom and that you visited family in the small town. So, do you remember going to the grandparents' house on Sunday? Because that's what you told investigators in '04. I don't, I, I can't remember and all that stuff. Yeah. Do you think that probably if you, if you said it in '04, that that would probably be more accurate? It would probably be more accurate because it was September and then, and then, uh... Because I know that when I came up,

• 1:03:01Speaker 04

  I remember going and asking Casey if he could give me a hand. Helping you move? Helping mom move. Help mom move the stuff into the house. And he was like, "Hey, I'm too busy." Is that whenever you showed up to Casey's trailer on Sunday? No. Okay. Well, when did you have that conversation? When mom moved up there. Three or four months? Oh, okay. Before? Okay.

• 1:03:25Mike Boudet?

  William claimed that this interaction happened months before. But now that we have Casey's original interview from September of 2004, we can look back and see that Casey told police something different.

• 1:03:39Speaker 06

  What's his name? His name is Billy. Little, we call him Little Billy. Um, and it's Billy Miller. What ward is Billy live at? He lives in Texas and I'm not for sure where. What was he doing up here? He was coming up here to, uh, move his mom and his brother back to Texas. So has he already gone back, you know? Yes, he's already gone. I'm pretty sure. Okay. And so I guess he came up and spoke with you just a short period of time that night? Yes, sir. That would've been Sunday evening? Uh huh. Okay. Uh, so how long did he stay? Um, about ten, fifteen minutes tops. We just really talked about all the time and stuff. Did he come into your house?

• 1:04:21Speaker 06

  No, sir. We were, he stayed outside. Uh, I was outside. He never came in the house, but Rebecca was on the front porch. He saw Rebecca on the front porch.

• 1:04:31Speaker 06

  Did he know that you and Rebecca dated in the past? Yes. Did he know that y'all were living together? Uh, he knew that she visited on the weekends. He stayed?

• 1:04:41Mike Boudet?

  Remember, Rebecca arrived at McCullough's trailer on Saturday, September eighteenth. The police originally thought she was alive on Monday morning. Jen and George think she was actually killed before that. Late Saturday night or maybe sometime on Sunday.

• 1:04:58Speaker 05

  There's a problem though with this part of the story too. Here's the problem. So this was what Casey told people in, you know, when he was interviewed, the police. And then William kinda told a similar story that he just pulled up into the driveway and, you know, that was it. Well, a couple of weeks after their statements are taken. Casey's asked whose DNA could possibly be in the house? And he gives a list of people whose DNA could be in the house. He lists William and Jeremy. And beside each of them, there's S U N, meaning Sunday night, next to each of them. Well, if he never got out of his car, how could his DNA be in the house?

• 1:05:36Speaker 04

  Obviously, I can't talk a lot about the evidence in the investigation. You know, it's an ongoing. Investigation, I understand, yes. Investigation, but, uh, I can assure you that there are items of evidence that.

• 1:05:55Speaker 04

  There should be no reason your DNA should be on it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Uh, we believe investigators, with the people that have worked this, we believe that we have the suspect's DNA on a piece of evidence that is very specific and very unique and nobody else's DNA should be on it. Uh, so that's, that's why I'm asking. There's a number of people that have provided DNA voluntarily. Would you be willing to provide your DNA?

• 1:06:33Speaker 04

  And it would be a cheek swab. I don't want to take blood or... But the thing is, is if I've been in the house and all that stuff, my DNA would be in there. You know, if, if you don't feel comfortable doing it, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna push you or try to put any pressure on you. You know, I, I didn't take your test and all that stuff, but, you know. Yeah. If you're that's fine. I, I, it's just, to me, it's just, you know, yeah, my DNA is gonna be in there. Right, right. Okay.

• 1:06:59Mike Boudet?

  Since he was so willing to give up his DNA, a polygraph would be no problem, right?

• 1:07:05Speaker 04

  Like I was talking before about polygraphs, you know, uh, almost, I, all of my cousins have been polygraphed. Um, a number of other people have been, you know. That's one, that, that's a tool that we like to use to, you know, it kinda gives us a pretty good indication of... That somebody's lying or telling the truth and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, would you be okay with taking a polygraph? I'll just ask you. Yeah, I don't have a problem with it. You don't have that kind of... You want me to go to Arkansas and take one? No, I, I tell you what, let me holler. I'll call a, I'll call the sergeant up here to see. They may have a polygrapher in town. You know, it's a shot in the dark.

• 1:07:47Mike Boudet?

  Actually, it was the furthest thing from a shot in the dark. This detective had his polygrapher locked and loaded.

• 1:07:55Speaker 04

  Alright, and so, we're gonna give you in great detail, all the questions are gonna be on the exam, we're gonna administer the test, we're gonna give you the test, it'll be done in several phases, and then I'm gonna evaluate the exam results, and I'll tell you how you did before you leave today, okay? What do they wanna know? They wanna know if you caused the death of Rebecca. Cool. How would you answer that question? How would I answer that? Yes. That, you know, how can you do something when you're in another location? Okay, perfect. So, if they were to ask you that on the exam, what would your answer be? No. Okay, perfect. And are you a hundred, half, hundred, ten percent positive? Yes. Perfect. You know, you're not gonna have a problem passing the test.

• 1:08:40Speaker 04

  You know, if you didn't do it, you didn't do it, and then it would go through the process, and that's, that's, that's what they wanna know, right?

• 1:08:47Mike Boudet?

  William sat like a statue in his chair for the duration of the test, answering yes and no questions confidently. When it was over, he didn't have to wait very long to get his results.

• 1:08:59Speaker 04

  Now, do you think you did? I don't know if you did anything. Okay, so the results on the exam were deception indicated, right? So, it's to the questions of, did you, you know? How's that explain that? Cause you failed the test. I failed the test? Yes, yes, and so... My heart beat, felt like it was just beating out of my chest. Yeah. You know, we, we talked about your DNA being at the crime scene, and you, you tried to give an explanation as to why your DNA would be at the crime scene, because your mom gave Claude furniture. Yeah, your furniture and all that stuff. And bedding, and you even, you even said that it, it would be reasonable for your DNA to be on the bedding, which is absolutely absurd. No, I didn't say that.

• 1:09:44Speaker 04

  Okay. I just said that mom gave you furniture and all that stuff. Okay, alright.

• 1:09:51Speaker 04

  This is a washcloth that was under the bed that the killer used to clean up. It was watered up in a ball, okay? We've got, we've got the killer's DNA on that washcloth. Okay.

• 1:10:06Speaker 04

  Would there be any reason for your DNA to be on that washcloth?

• 1:10:12Speaker 04

  It shouldn't be. Shouldn't be on there.

• 1:10:15Mike Boudet?

  Are you ready to have your mind blown? The detective is lying. His DNA was not on the washcloth. This is just one of the tools in a seasoned detective's tool belt that's used to get a reaction and possibly a confession out of a suspect when there's little else to go on. They were baiting him.

• 1:10:38Speaker 05

  He got tricked.

• 1:10:41Speaker 05

  And it, and it was a gutsy move. I, I'll give Mike McNeil credit. He got tricked. He got tricked into thinking that his DNA was on a rag that they had found. They were going to do some DNA testing. And then he also got tricked into thinking that Rebecca's DNA. What Mike did is he went and found the truck, the actual truck that he, that William Miller owned in 2004. It was somewhere in South Texas. He sent the Texas Rangers down there to take pictures of it. And so Mike has a folder, and this is after William has failed the polygraph test during his interview. And he comes in, he says, well, I've got to share something with you. And he pulls out these pictures of this truck.

• 1:11:19Speaker 04

  That truck look familiar? Yeah. Yeah. That's your truck. Yeah. Okay? Biological evidence, Billy, lasts for decades. Blood, skin cells, all kinds of stuff. Okay. All right? That was a really bloody crime scene. What you, what happened? You got blood on the side of your shoe.

• 1:11:49Speaker 04

  We got Rebecca's DNA next to the gas pedal in your truck.

• 1:11:58Speaker 04

  No question about it, her DNA's in your truck. So what you have to do is you have to explain to me how that's possible. If you didn't kill her, you know who did. And if you know who did, if you're covering for Casey, dude, I'm telling you, you have got to come forward right now with what you know.

• 1:12:19Speaker 05

  And William immediately knows it's his old truck. And he goes, "We're gonna get this tested and whoever killed her is on the track." Neither one of those things was true.

• 1:12:29Mike Boudet?

  But it was enough to scare William into confessing. Still wanna be a detective?

• 1:12:35Speaker 04

  We know what you did. We know how it went down. We've got her blood in your floorboard. You tried to clean up best that you could, Billy. Don't drag your mom through this anymore. Don't drag your brother through this anymore. Give the family some peace. It was a freak deal, man. You did not mean to kill her. It happens. It should've never happened, but it did. Okay? So tell me, Billy, just tell me. Tell me what you did. How it happened. Can I speak to my mom outside? You can look at me and I'm not gonna run off or anything.

• 1:13:20Speaker 04

  Listen, let me do this. Let me bring your mom in here. And let's talk to her together, if that's what you wanna do. I wanna talk to her outside. Outside, and I promise to come back in here and tell you whatever you want.

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• 1:14:46Mike Boudet?

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• 1:15:18Speaker 01

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• 1:15:31Speaker 02

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• 1:17:20Mike Boudet?

  William Miller had failed his polygraph test miserably. He realized the walls were closing in and he asked for one last chance to talk with his mother. When he came back into the room, William told police exactly what they'd been waiting to hear. He had murdered Rebecca Gould all of those years ago. It was him. It had always been him.

• 1:17:47Speaker 04

  Okay, I'll get Jeremy in a minute. We need to have a conversation. I held up my end of the deal. Let's talk. What do you want me to tell you? I want me, I want you to tell me what you did, how it went down. One thing about this is it's been reeling into your head like a movie reel since it happened. There isn't anything about this that you forgot. I know that because I've been doing this a long time. I haven't, I haven't said anything. I did it. I did it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what I did. You gotta tell me how it went down. I'm just content. I kind of blocked it out of my mind in a way to survive.

• 1:18:30Speaker 04

  Everybody that I've associated is a victim of me. Absolutely. A victim. Absolutely. And I played everybody as a fool. Everybody.

• 1:18:46Speaker 04

  I never told anybody but you right now.

• 1:18:51Speaker 04

  I don't remember going into the trailer and stuff and then

• 1:18:57Speaker 04

  it just happened so quick and so fast and then I freaked out and I You can't gloss over it. What happened so fast and so quick? What happened? Where did it happen? You have to tell me these facts. If you haven't told me, you should know. No, I do. I do. Or should I just get a lawyer and all that stuff? No, I'm just asking you that because, you know. Listen, man. You know, I'm telling you, you know, I'm confessing to you, I'm telling you that I did it. What'd you do? Arrest me. What'd you do? Arrest me. What'd you say in that you said that I killed her for her blood and all that stuff is in there? Then arrest me. I'm confessing. I did it.

• 1:19:42Speaker 04

  Billy, you're under arrest for the murder of Rebecca Gould. Alright. Okay?

• 1:19:51Speaker 04

  Take me to Arkansas, let me... Listen, no, that's a whole...we'll get there. I know that, but it doesn't happen the way you want it to happen. It just doesn't... Take me to Arkansas, do this, do that. It doesn't happen that way.

• 1:20:06Speaker 05

  Here's the thing, in the state of Arkansas, you can't, and this is true in a lot of states, you cannot just have a confession. You have to have some other piece of evidence that ties the person to the crime. The problem for William is, is that there was a piece of evidence that did tie him to the crime, and that's the missing suitcase. When police arrived, um, the day that Rebecca vanished, there were three things missing. One of her suitcases, the piano leg, and her.

• 1:20:32Speaker 04

  Okay, but I need to know what you did with Rebecca. Where did you put her before you dumped her? I need to know all that stuff. And I know that's not easy to talk about. But we gotta have that conversation.

• 1:20:49Speaker 04

  Where did you put her before you dumped her? Where'd you keep her? In the truck. Where in the truck?

• 1:20:56Speaker 04

  The back end of the truck. Okay. What was she in? She was in a shirt and hoodie. No. Did you put her in a trash bag? No, I didn't put her in a... No, where'd you put her in? There was a blanket and all that stuff. What was used to cause her injuries?

• 1:21:20Speaker 04

  We'll go to Arkansas and I'm gonna point out something to you. And then you'll find some certain things that you might be looking for. Alright?

• 1:21:30Speaker 04

  So you're telling me, right now, in November of 2020, there is still physical evidence? Probably. That has not been found? Yeah.

• 1:21:42Speaker 04

  Let's go to Arkansas.

• 1:21:49Speaker 04

  That will nail it in the coffin?

• 1:21:54Speaker 04

  Would it?

• 1:21:56Speaker 04

  Well, no, I'm telling you, you know. Unless somebody picked it up and thought it was trash. But it should be where it's at.

• 1:22:09Mike Boudet?

  It should be where it's at. Well, that's helpful. Ain't it weird how humans can do inhuman things but not talk about them afterwards? Words too violent for you, Billy? We are a strange species, indeed.

• 1:22:26Speaker 05

  For, you know, 16 years, they were trying to find this suitcase. Well, William told them where to find the suitcase and it was in proximity to his mom's old house that where she, when she was living in Guyan. And it took them about, the search, we estimate, was about three to four hours. But they found the suitcase. Um, the suitcase is weird, though. And there's a reason why it's weird. William says he took it and William's a, he's not tall, but he's a big, stocky guy. You know, he weighed over 300 pounds and was only like 5'6". And so he took this suitcase and he said he launched it from the highway and it landed like 30, 40 yards away or something like that.

• 1:23:05Speaker 05

  And, um, so when it's found, it's open and all of the bedding and there's some bedding and there's some clothes, they're all in a pile over here and there were some CDs in there and all this other stuff. So Jen is at my house one night after we get the pictures of this suitcase. And it was confirmed, you know, it was her suitcase, her stuff. Um, there's only one problem.

• 1:23:33Speaker 05

  Think about the physics of throwing a suitcase, okay? If it's all zipped up, you throw it, no problem. But if it was open, then all that stuff would have been scattered all over the place and all of the clothing type items would have long been gone, deteriorated into nothing.

• 1:23:49Speaker 07

  They weren't faded. You could see the... This is how we know it was... Came from Casey's house is because the plaid on the sheet matches that that was in his washer. And we've actually done our own suitcase experiment. We... One of the local residents in Melbourne went to Goodwill and got two black suitcases. And she... Her backyard has a very similar landscape to where this suitcase was found with the same types of trees and leaves and obviously the same weather pattern. So what we did is we had her put sheets in one suitcase and zip it closed and just put it out like that. And then the other one, we had her put the suitcase like Rebecca's was found with it unzipped, open, and the sheets... They're not in a neat pile, but they're very close to the suitcase and just laying on

• 1:24:33Speaker 07

  top of the leaves. And so she put those sheets out there. This started in December of 2023. And within a few months, those sheets were like unrecognizable, deteriorated, and now they're just basically gone. So we... That's how we know like Rebecca's suitcase could not have been laying open like that for 16 years and the sheets look pretty new. So somebody opened that suitcase, but we haven't figured out who yet.

• 1:25:04Speaker 04

  What would you say to Rebecca as well? I'm truly sorry.

• 1:25:11Speaker 04

  I'm totally sorry. I know that I can't bring her back. I know that... I... If...

• 1:25:22Speaker 04

  There was times that I wanted to go to Dr. Google's office. Go to his office and hand him a gun and tell him that I did it. But I was too chicken shit to do that.

• 1:25:35Speaker 05

  Like he gave this confession, gave really no reason as to why Rebecca would, you know, he killed her. But then, at his sentencing, he agrees to meet with Dr. Gould afterwards. And he tells a completely different story about how he gave her, that he hit her, but then he gave her CPR. And if they find his DNA on her shirt, it was because he was crying. He keeps telling all these crazy stories that don't make any sense. But like with any, anybody who's lying, there's grains, there's grains of truth in there and you gotta somehow try to mine them out. Of course, now he claims he had nothing to do with it in case he did all of it, so.

• 1:26:09Speaker 07

  And for listeners who want to waste 11 hours of their life, they can watch his entire interview, polygraph, confession, everything on YouTube.

• 1:26:18Mike Boudet?

  William was arrested for Rebecca's murder and eventually took a plea deal that landed him 40 years in the Arkansas Department of Corrections. And like George said, these days, William has changed his story yet again, as you might suspect. He and Jen have been in contact with him since his arrest, and he now says that Casey murdered Rebecca. He just helped clean up the scene.

• 1:26:44Speaker 05

  And fun fact, the cleaning supplies that were used to clean up the crime scene were delivered by Linda, and that's verified. She delivered those cleaning supplies. Now, she claims that her brother, that he asked her to pick up certain items for the house, and they were all cleaning items that were used by the killer or killers to clean up the mess in the house.

• 1:27:09Mike Boudet?

  No one knows for sure just how much Linda Miller knew about the situation, but it warrants some serious speculation. Rebecca's murder wasn't the only secret her son had been keeping, though. The same day he took the polygraph test, failed it, and confessed to the murder, he also confessed to five others, too. That's right. William could be a serial killer.

• 1:27:35Speaker 05

  What happened was, is he confessed to Rebecca's murder. And of course, then you know, the detectives are trying to press him like, hey, we know this wasn't your first rodeo. And so then he confesses to five other murders, but he doesn't give the names of the victims. He didn't give specific details, though, about how he kidnapped one of these victims from, she was like at a payphone at a convenience store late night. You know, and he gave specific details about how he would, you know, trick them. He said it was, some of them were sex workers, you know, they would think they were about getting ready to have a sexual encounter. And sometimes he would have a strap underneath his, his, somewhere in his truck that he could just grab it, wrap it around their neck and strangle them.

• 1:28:16Speaker 05

  I am almost 100% confident that he's a serial killer and he's done this many times. I just believe it.

• 1:28:23Mike Boudet?

  Jen still wavers on whether she agrees with George on this one, but she is 100% sure that William was somehow involved in the murder and disposal of Rebecca Gould.

• 1:28:35Speaker 07

  I just, and this, this is the, the tragedy of it in a way, is that if only the state police had shared a little bit with us and we had known William had been in the state of Arkansas the weekend of the murder. I mean, everything would have been so different from our side the whole time. And then him joining the group, I mean, it, that was a golden opportunity. They're lucky that we're smart and like, I'm used to running sources and stuff and we know how to interview or what to say and not to say, because we could have totally screwed the whole thing up and scared him off. And he never would have gone to that interview and confessed. But they also could have used us to try to get information from him. If only they would have communicated with us, you know? And that's just what's so frustrating to me about this case.

• 1:29:22Speaker 07

  And we're not here to defend William. I am 100% confident he was involved in this whole thing and maybe others. But there are just aspects of the investigation and that and his confession that weren't vetted enough. For instance, his timeline on this murder Monday morning, and they didn't challenge him on any of those details. And just to clarify for listeners, William's DNA and prints were never found in that residence. I'm not saying they're not there. I'm sure his DNA was there somewhere. But they did not have anything else on him, except his confession, which had parts that cannot be true. And there's actually a lot of DAs that would not approve an arrest warrant on this.

• 1:30:08Mike Boudet?

  It's no wonder this case has held the attention of so many for nearly two decades. It's not just the brutality of what happened to Rebecca. It's the sheer scale of what we don't know. The conflicting timelines, the recycled alibis, the parade of rumors, false leads, and players who still haven't been entirely ruled out. William Miller is serving a 40-year sentence for murder he now insists he falsely confessed to. He continues to beg Jen and George to uncover new evidence that will put Casey or someone else in prison for

• 1:30:48Mike Boudet?

  this crime instead of him. But that ship has sailed. He took a plea deal. He confessed. He volunteered evidence. And in doing so, he gave up almost any chance of appeal.

• 1:31:03Speaker 07

  So I've been to visit him three times. And George actually got to interview him and take video of it because he's an official, you know, journalist or what is it, George? A media member, I guess, that got you in. And so I'm just, if he's willing to keep talking to us, I'm not going to give up because I feel compelled to not only try to get the truth about Rebecca's case, but also try to figure out if he has other victims. And so I told him this last time, this is just a couple of months ago when I went with Jeremy,

• 1:31:37Speaker 07

  I said, dude, we're about the same age and barring some major catastrophe or me getting cancer, like, we're going to be alive for about the same amount of time and I'm not going to stop talking to you.

• 1:31:49Mike Boudet?

  And in the absence of official help, it's civilians like you and me, who are stepping up and finding William's other potential victims. Not ego-driven cops in short shorts, regular people like you and me, with a moral compass, a strong sense of right and wrong, and a need for justice. People who will not stop asking questions even when officials have long forgotten the case and told you to shut up. Web sleuths like this have already been combing through other cold cases across every state William ever set foot in, trying to make sense of what he vaguely blurted out during his police interview.

• 1:32:32Speaker 07

  So, we can't do it by ourselves. And so, we started this project several months ago, and I just called it Operation Rebecca, because I didn't know what else. I couldn't come up with anything better. But I have an official signup form. I have a video on our YouTube channel explaining the process of what we're doing. And I just ask volunteers to fill out the form. It's only four questions. Sign up for a state, and then watch the video, and then email me once you watch the video, and I'll send you the links to the Google Drive folder that has all the information you need.

• 1:33:05Mike Boudet?

  We'll post a link to Jen's info in the show notes at swordandscale.com, so you too can join the investigative fun. Now, where did I put that magnifying glass again? Anyway, I think this case proves justice doesn't always wear a badge. Sometimes it looks like a true crime podcast enthusiast with a search tab open at 3:00 a.m. and way too much coffee in their digestive system. Get 20% off at strongcoffeecompany.com with promo code SWORD, by the way. But as I was saying, sometimes justice looks just like you and just like me. Sometimes it requires a hive of citizens to stand up for justice and collectively uncover

• 1:33:48Mike Boudet?

  what a single mind cannot or will not. It's kind of amazing to see it happen in real time.

• 1:33:57Mike Boudet?

  And next time, maybe, just maybe, you'll be the reason someone's story doesn't end in silence.

• 1:34:53Mike Boudet?

  Youtube.com/swordandscaleTV is where you can find all three seasons of Sword and Scale Television. It's ongoing, new episodes every month. That's gonna do it. Thank you for joining us. Until next time, stay safe.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

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• 1:36:59Speaker 02

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• 1:37:44Speaker 02

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• 1:37:46Speaker 03

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