EXCLUSIVE: Top Chef Winner Reveals What It Took to Become Season 23 Champion!!

The Top Chef Season 23 champion joins our podcast for an exclusive conversation about the journey from finalist to winner. Fresh off the finale, the newest Top Chef breaks down the dishes that sealed the victory, the strategy behind the final meal, and the emotions of competing in one of the most pressure-filled moments of the competition. In this episode: A behind-the-scenes look at the Top Chef Season 23 finale The inspiration and cultural influences behind the winning menu Why leaning into personal culinary identity became the key to success The role Joe played as a mentor throughout the finale The toughest challenges and most memorable moments from the season What life has been like since winning Top Chef Future plans, career goals, and what's next after the biggest victory of a culinary career Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Today on The Chef's Cut, we have the winner of Top Chef Season 23, the newest winner, Chef Rhoda Mogbitang. She walks us through the highs and lows of her finale dishes.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  She did give me a concerned look when I told you that I wasn't making a dessert.

• 0:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  How leaning into her culture and comfort gave her the edge for the win.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  What's the food that gives me comfort right now?

• 0:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  And what's next for her after Top Chef?

• 0:37Speaker 01

  I always say there are easier ways to lose money than open a restaurant.

• 0:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  But first, Chef's Cut Nation, we need 10 seconds of your time. Please remember to just rate and review the show wherever you get your pods. It really helps us keep this going.

• 1:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, I am so pumped for today's episode. Chef's Cut Nation is not going to believe this, but we have an exclusive first, hot off the press for The Chef's Cut. We have the newest winner of Top Chef, fresh off of her win. Isn't that amazing?

• 1:21Joe Flamm?

  And?

• 1:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  And, and you.

• 1:23Joe Flamm?

  Your mentor.

• 1:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, Joe, you know, what can I say? You're a winner. You mentor winners, you pick winners. I mean, you're on a roll.

• 1:31Joe Flamm?

  If you're keeping track, that's me 2-0 in finales.

• 1:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ooh, I guess so.

• 1:35Joe Flamm?

  I just want to say, so you know what I mean? Maybe if this restaurant thing doesn't, you know, work out, I'd just become a competitive Top Chef coach.

• 1:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hell, yeah, I'm sure you can earn a ton of money every year by doing that. And you're clearly on a, on a hot streak. So congratulations to you too for the win.

• 1:51Joe Flamm?

  I'm on a heater, you know? No, I mean, it was, you know, it's awesome for Rhoda. It was really, really cool being there. I don't know that I helped whatsoever, but I was really, really excited to get to be there and watch her win and root for her so much.

• 2:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, I love it. I love it. Our own Joe Flamm, the finale judge and the mentor of the winner who we have here with us today. Everybody, welcome Chef Rhoda.

• 2:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Rhoda, it is so good to have you here. Thanks so much for joining us.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  This is super exciting. I've been listening to your podcast like from the very beginning last year.

• 2:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, we've been watching your season from the very beginning.

• 2:37Joe Flamm?

  This has got to feel crazy right now where you finally get to say, I won Top Chef. Like you are the winner of Top Chef. Does that even compute in your head right now?

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Well, now that I'm talking to you, because you were in the finale with me, yes, it's, it's definitely coming together. But I couldn't really wrap my head around it up until, you know, like it's finally announced. It's one of those things that you just don't really like, you don't want to think about it too much because like you either get too excited or you're just so like, did that really happen? You know?

• 3:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And you can't say anything to anybody.

• 3:23Joe Flamm?

  Right. It's like a fever dream.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 3:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Because even we had Tristan not that long ago and Tristan talked about it when he won his season, same thing. Joe went through, same thing. You just went through, you win. And then you've got this months long period, six months, eight months, however long it is from the finale taping to actually airing. And you can't say anything. Tristan said he was like making chalupas for Marcus at an event in Miami. And like, he's like, you guys just wait, you just wait until, until this airs and you know that I won.

• 3:54Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. And I mean, because I looked it up, I looked up pictures from it yesterday and I was like, that was back in October when we were there. And it's like, you know, I remember like, you know, when I won, it was like, I won. And then it was like, I was running service three days later. Like back at work, like I was running espionage.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:11Joe Flamm?

  And I was like, what just happened?

• 4:14Speaker 01

  I didn't do that. I, I went on a retreat in Topanga Canyon and just locked myself in a cabin. And just like kind of decompressed and, you know, I was able to do that, which I felt like, you know, was such a treat after.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  That experience.

• 4:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  We want to know, like, I want you to tell us about the finale. Joe and I were like talking about it. We saw it from his perspective because he was there, but I was not there. So there is so much perspective that you guys have from being there together for this finale. Were you really sad when you saw that you were going to be paired up with Joe?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  You know?

• 4:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Were you like, oh, I'm gonna fucking lose?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Well, actually, quite the contrary. I was very excited. You know, like, it's, it's funny because they were walking down this bridge. At Grandfather Mountain, is that what it was called?

• 5:15Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's, it's Grandfather Mountain.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Grandfather Mountain.

• 5:18Joe Flamm?

  At like four or 5,000 feet of altitude.

• 5:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Whoa.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, no big deal. Fantastic views, you know, just, and we weren't allowed to look. We weren't allowed to turn around because, you know, like Kristen, Tom and Gail kept saying like, don't turn around, don't turn around. But we hear these footsteps. And this was after we had drawn knives of like, you know, first names of random people. And I'm like, like, what is this Madonna, Cher, like Joe, Sarah and Stephanie? I was like, I couldn't really put two and T together until, you know, I saw them and I just, I, I picked Joe, the Joe knife, and I was like so excited when I turned around and it was you.

• 6:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's so cool.

• 6:08Joe Flamm?

  It was such a wild setup, right? Cause like we, you know, we're walking in and we're walking in pretty cold. Like, obviously they're not like, oh, here, let us show you every episode that's led up to this point. You know what I mean? We don't know much about the chefs. They're just kind of, they give us a quick rundown. They tell us how it's going to go. They bring us to the top of a mountain at 7:00 AM.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  You go there at 7:00 AM?

• 6:27Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, we were there super early. Cause we had to do a bunch of shots before you guys got out there.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:32Joe Flamm?

  Because they didn't want you to see us, right? And then I couldn't remember, did you, had you guys picked your sous chefs already at that point? Or did you pick sous chefs afterwards?

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we did already pick our sous chefs. Because you were joking with me about Seeger. You're like, you know, the Chicago boys.

• 6:48Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, you picked you picked all the Chicago boys. You had Seeger. So you had you had the Midwest crew rolling heavy. So I felt really good about your odds.

• 6:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  So what made you choose Seeger for your sous chef?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  A lot of us went to Seeger for advice, whether it's like just technical or just anything, you know, cooking, why, you know, techniques, all of that stuff. And he's he's a really smart guy like he's he's really technically sound, um, you know, like, and he just, he just knows the shit. And so like, and he's very clean. He's very organized. Like, he just, he's always the first person to like, finish shop like he just, he just knows like what to do. And so he's very self sufficient. And so for me, like, I didn't want a sous chef that I have to babysit. And I know that he can just

• 7:44Speaker 01

  handle his own. And also, I mean, you know, I think your season two, you guys didn't have time in between, you know, the the semifinals and the finale.

• 7:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nope.

• 7:57Joe Flamm?

  They give it some extra day.

• 7:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, they literally get a day off.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  No, we didn't have time. I mean, you know, like, usually, in the past, I've seen them take like a week or two break and then they go somewhere else. You guys stayed in Colorado. We stayed in North Carolina. Um, so we didn't really have, you know, that much time to like, really come home and and sort of like gather it more information or, you know, just like regroup.

• 8:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, R and D, some ideas.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Something like that. I mean, you know, but.

• 8:34Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, because you hear the stories about people like in the really old seasons, they had like months off and people would go, they would go stage, they would go work for people, they would go like learn stuff for the finale to like, you know, and they spent six months like R and D in that menu, working out and all that. And when you're like, You know, going straight into it. It's like, okay, like you think you're out and you're like, all right, well, it's just like, okay, now all you have to do is kick the best meal of your life.

• 9:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Oh, no biggie.

• 9:02Joe Flamm?

  That's all you're gonna do. That's all that's between you and the finish line is the best four courses you have ever put on plates in your whole entire life. That's it.

• 9:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's it.

• 9:12Joe Flamm?

  It's just, there you go. Just do that.

• 9:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  They're like, that's it.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Can I also just say something? I mean, and this is why I just felt like I hit the jackpot with picking Joe. He went through Last Chance Kitchen as well, same as me. And you know, like, one of the first things he told me was like, you went through Last Chance Kitchen. These guys are tired. They're wiped out of ideas. You're fresh. And like, I'm like, you know what? You're right. I am fresh.

• 9:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm. He is so right about that. You know, it's like in Last Chance Kitchen, you're still going through a gauntlet, right? Depending on what stage you get there. Sometimes you have to go through a lot of competitors. Sometimes you come in and you just knock out one or two and then you're back on the show. But Joe was like, oh, I slept. I had time to like, sleep. Nobody's waking me up.

• 10:03Joe Flamm?

  I slept in a big boy bed.

• 10:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 10:06Joe Flamm?

  Sleeping on a bunk bed that was a foot shorter than my body. And then they were like, here's a, here's an actual bed that fits a, you know, midwestern sized human. And I was like, oh man, this is incredible.

• 10:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's crazy. And so like, you came back all rested and refreshed and I'm like haggard and like, exhausted. I'm like, I hate you so much.

• 10:27Joe Flamm?

  Well, that's what I was like, you know, when I came in and I saw Rhonda, like, you know, they told me she'd come back from Last Chance Kitchen like I did. I was like, you know, my whole thing was like, it's like, listen, you're at the, you're at the finish line here. I mean, there's nothing I can tell you that's going to make or break your day. So I was just trying to come in and be like, I'm just gonna drive the hype train. I'm just gonna come in with like, energy and drive the hype train and be like, Let's fucking go. Like, let's

• 10:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe brought such a good cheerleader.

• 10:51Joe Flamm?

  Like, yeah.

• 10:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  You really did.

• 10:53Joe Flamm?

  Vibes guy.

• 10:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, you got me pumped our season. You kept me like pumped up all the time too. So like, I know that feeling, Rota, when he's like, man, you got this. Like, come on, we can, you know, it's like, I see him doing the same thing at the restaurants. When I come to Chicago, he's like pumping up the cooks and the sous chefs and everybody and everybody's like hype and it's just energy.

• 11:11Joe Flamm?

  Standing on top of a mountain, just like barking at the other chefs.

• 11:15Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? They look scared. I could tell they were scared.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  No, you did. You did give me a concerned look when I told you that I wasn't making a dessert. So I'm gonna do like a braised short rib with

• 11:25Speaker 03

  Are you doing no dessert?

• 11:26Speaker 01

  No, no dessert.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Why are you looking at me like that?

• 11:30Speaker 03

  I don't know. I just

• 11:33Speaker 03

  it's a choice.

• 11:34Joe Flamm?

  Me and Adri, we're talking about this. So you guys had the four courses.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:37Joe Flamm?

  And that was like my first question after we met. Cause you and I, we have that menu meeting. You tell me about your menu and then you're like, I'm not doing dessert. And I was like.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  I would have done a dessert if they I know. Well, here's the thing.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  I definitely would have done a dessert if they didn't put in the dish dedication. Cause you have to dedicate each dish to something or someone or a place that meant something to you in your life and your career. And, you know, for me, just nothing dessert wise really stood out to me as far as like, you know, making a dish for that. And I felt like, you know, my dishes were just fine being all savory.

• 12:33Joe Flamm?

  I kind of want to talk about, you know, the, the, the, the whole thing a little bit, just like how you felt going through it. Cause like, obviously you come out, you know, you win at the end, but you know, people don't understand the roller coaster of emotions of like, okay, you're in the finale, right? You get that moment, that first realization, you're literally standing on top of the mountain. You know, Sherry, Lawrence are there. You see us. Get the menu going. You know, you get into the kitchen and cook that finale. Cooking through that dinner, like one, how did you feel during the cook? Like, were you like, all right, this is rolling. This is going great. Like, I'm hitting, or were you like unsure, second guessing? Like, how did you feel going through that day while it was happening in real time?

• 13:12Speaker 01

  During the cook, I was fine. Like, I, and, and I'm always like this, like, I just, you know, when I'm cooking, I just, I know what I want and I know what I want to get out of the dishes that I'm making. But then in retrospect, you know, I walk away and I'm like, I could have done this. I could have done this and I could have done this. And so.

• 13:34Joe Flamm?

  The time in between is brutal.

• 13:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? When they're like setting up judges table where you're just waiting, where you sit in the silence and you think about every component.

• 13:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Then, yeah, that's when you start dissecting everything.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and the judges definitely, you know, help you second guess yourself a lot.

• 13:52Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 13:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joseph.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  You know, just, just lightly, but that's what they do, right? Like, that's, that's their job. And so, you know, for me, I definitely could rattle off like 50 things that I could have done better. But at the time of the cook, there's so much going on and there's, you know, cameras and producers and, you know, the other chefs. And you just have to be able to drown out that noise and just concentrate on what you're doing. And with me and Seeger, we're just humming. We're just like completely, you know, like I tell him what he needs to do and like we, we basically like got done with like our list, you know,

• 14:38Speaker 01

  75% of our stuff was done like the day before and everything else is just pickup finale day. And so. I felt good about it. Like I, I just felt like I didn't have a lot of things that I know are gonna complicate my dishes.

• 14:54Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I mean, you guys felt cool, calm, collected back there, you know, from sitting at the table. Cause like, you know, how, how it worked ages. Like we were at, I was at the final table, but then, you know, we went from, I think there was 12 of us at the final table till they only go and they went to judges' table with only four chefs, right? So we all had a conversation about it at the final table as we're going dish by dish as we're going course by course. And it was, it was so close. It was so close. Like I sat through those four, you know, courses and, and it's funny cause like all of us, you know, me, Sarah and Steph, we all have our, our, our person, right? That we're, you know, helping. So we're all there like, we're like your lobbyists.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:35Joe Flamm?

  Right. At that table where it's like any dish, especially like, because you had told me some of the backstory of the dishes. So I'm like, oh, well, you gotta understand here. Like this is what we're doing. You know what I mean? Like we're like, I, I am, I am selling. I am selling at that table. Like, so is Steph. So we're all politicking over there. You know what I mean? And, um, but you know, when we, when we left after a final course goes, you know, you mean, you all put out a phenomenal dinner. You know what I mean? You all left it all out there. And it's just like, you see it at all your faces, like just the level of like, not just like, man, I'm spent, but like the level of like, like emotional exhaustion of like, I just put it all out there. You know what I

• 16:16Joe Flamm?

  mean? I just put myself on a plate. I put myself out on this dinner. I threw it all on the table. I left it all on the floor. And it's just like, it's so incredible to see. Like it's like just sitting there on the other side of it. Like, you know, my heart is just pounding the whole time. So they take you guys away. They take us away. So we walked away from it, Sarah, Steph and I, and we were like, you know, we don't know.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Wow. There was no like, dear winner.

• 16:42Joe Flamm?

  No, no, it was like, I was like, I don't know. Like, you know, so then we have, you know, like six hours till we go back to their judges' table. Cause we're not sitting through the whole judges' table, right? So we're like spending six hours.

• 16:57Joe Flamm?

  Talking about everything, second guessing everything for them. Well, what happened about this? Like, what, you know, what if this is this? And so it was like crazy. So it was, you know, when we got to go back. And so I was standing there and got to stand there at judges' table when they told you you were Top Chef. But as you were standing there, right before the moment they said it, in your head, were you like, I got this? What did you feel? Were you like, this is, like, did you know? Or were you like?

• 17:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Did you think it could go either way?

• 17:34Speaker 01

  I kind of knew.

• 17:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nice.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Is that weird? Is that?

• 17:39Joe Flamm?

  No.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Is that a weird thing to say?

• 17:42Joe Flamm?

  I think at the finale, it's one because it's so head to head that I think it's the one judges' table you sit through. Where you have a good idea. I think when it's like final four, final three, final, like for us, it was final two, obviously. But I feel like those were the only judges' table age, and maybe you feel different, where it was like, it felt more obvious because there were so few of us where you're like, you kind of knew where things were gonna fall.

• 18:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, like, I guess so, in some ways, yes.

• 18:10Joe Flamm?

  Dish to dish, you know what I mean? Like,

• 18:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  But I thought I kind of had you. I'm not gonna lie. At the, I thought there was a chance. I thought there was a chance.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  I mean, listen, I just rewatched your season too. And so I needed to see it. And it's, you know, like, sometimes like I rewatch seasons of Top Chef, you know, like, the older ones. And I kind of like, try to like, analyze how the judges talk about the dishes. And the winning dishes and, you know, like, the not winning dishes. And so they have a really good way of maybe like veering your attention, like to, you know, where you might think that you're not.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  It and so.

• 18:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  I knew the way Tom was talking about the octopus being dry because again, we're at altitude. I should have pulled that in the liquid. He kept coming back to the dry octopus. I was like, dude, fucking get over it. Look at all the other course, like get over it. Okay, the octopus was dry. My bad, I've never cooked at altitude before. Way to fucking learn a lesson on the fly. Like Tom, get past it, buddy. And like, look at the other courses. So I thought there was a chance if he could get over that, but he just kept coming back to it. I was like, oh, toast, done. But talk us through your dishes. You don't have to give us full long, but like, give us the menu description for the courses that you did.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  So I did a, um, a version of like a sweet potato dish that I used to make.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  When I was cooking in California and it's with uni. And, um, I did like a miso and creme fraiche. And I found some like, you know, really cool sweet potato leaves, uh, from the Asian market and in Charlotte. And so, you know, like I just grilled that over charcoal, super simple, just kind of letting the ingredients speak for itself. That's kind of like my ode to California. And then my second course was for my mom and I did like a, um, a play on the congee. But I used abalone and I did an abalone liver mousse with braised abalone and, um, crispy shiitake's and some other stuff.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  And then in third course, I did like, uh, an eggplant omelet, which is like a first food memory. And, um, with like some crispy pork belly and of Chinese sausage XO. And like a side of just like a chili vinegar, uh, that we usually eat with it. And the fourth course is a braised short rib with liver sauce. And that's for my dad. And then, yeah, I mean, I went kind of, I went Filipino on this menu.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  And it's something that I don't really cook professionally, which again, another sort of surprising element that, you know, like I even surprised myself when I decided that I wanted to go in this direction. Because it's not something that I cooked really like much like this level, you know?

• 21:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  And even throughout the season, you had hints and you had accents and you had components here and there of Filipino cuisine, but you really leaned into it into the finale and coming out of Last Chance Kitchen. You know, like that was where you really started to go harder on that and really tap into it, which is kind of like Nina Compton and me in the finale. Like I had never cooked the kind of food that I grew up eating either professionally. That it wasn't something that I really leaned into, maybe bits and pieces here and there, little subtle shout outs, but it wasn't until the finale that I really leaned into it also. So what made you do that? What inspired you to kind of take that really on for the finale?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  I think there's like a little bit of shyness that comes with cooking food that you grew up with, especially for, you know, a lot of immigrant kids. They're, you know, I'm classically trained chef, cook, whatever. And so there wasn't a lot of application to that food, you know, that I can apply to like with, with my knowledge and how I was trained. And so for some reason, being on Top Chef and, you know, not having the devices that you usually have to like look something up or, or, you know, just like look back at your old notebooks

• 22:56Speaker 01

  or cookbooks or whatever, like you, you sort of, you're forced to dig deep. And you're forced to just like, you know, like what are, what, what's the food that like gives me comfort right now? And you kind of revert back to like the, the things that you know, and, and that makes you just happy because there's not a lot of that like around when you're in a competition setting.

• 23:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that's so true.

• 23:25Joe Flamm?

  And we talked to Gail about that a lot. And I think one of the things that is so special about that show is they're so good at finding chefs at the right point where it's like you're, you're super technically sound. You're really, really good. And I think, you know, for myself and Adrian, it was the same case, but it's like. It's almost like you're still looking for your voice a little bit. And I think like that show is such a great, like in the most pressurized way, in the most insane intense way, like forces you to have a voice, to have a perspective, to have a point of view that you have to put forward. And I thought, you know, like, sitting there talking to you about your finale meal for the first time, and then seeing it, you know, play out over the course of the plates. That was so exciting to me and just like told me so much about

• 24:10Joe Flamm?

  you of like, you were like, I'm gonna cook this food that's important to me. And I think when we do that as chefs, when we do stuff that is super genuine to ourselves, we always make the best stuff.

• 24:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  And after that, like, two-month gauntlet of being away from the familiarity of your own kitchen, your own staff, your own sous, you know, like, your whole team, your family, your life, like, you're away from everybody. So maybe, I hadn't thought about it like that, but maybe that's kind of like why you're forced to lean into what brings you comfort and joy and that familiarity. So you're, you're putting out your dishes and your menu looked phenomenal. Everything looked gorgeous. The competitors' dishes were also looking really good. So what were you thinking as you're seeing Sherry and Lawrence's dishes come out also?

• 25:00Speaker 01

  I'm extremely, and still am, intimidated by Sherry and Lawrence. I think both of them are incredible chefs and they're both really technically sound and, you know, and they had a lot going on. And I felt like I didn't have enough going on. And, you know, it's, it, it's almost like both of them were so nervous about their prep list. And I just wasn't at all, there wasn't a point, any point in time during prep and cook that I felt like

• 25:38Speaker 01

  You know, I was struggling for time and both of them were really talking about like how they wished that they had more time and, and so it started, you know, this train of thought in my head, like, am I not just not doing enough? And so I just had to drown that out because I can't, I can't think about it too much. But, you know, their dishes look incredible because we were all plating at the same time and I couldn't help but just like look over and, you know, Sheri's plating is always stunning and Lawrence knows what he's doing. He knows what he's going for and he just, as Joe would say, he just

• 26:18Speaker 01

  sends it. And so like for me, I just, yeah, I had, I thought like at some point I just needed to put some blinders on.

• 26:28Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. And so it's such an easier thing to, easy thing to say, you know, I mean, I feel like Tom told us that early in our season, you know, I think it was the first episode. He was like, don't worry about whatever everyone else is doing. Just do your thing. It's like, yeah, okay.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 26:40Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, that would be great in life, too, if I didn't worry about what any other chef or any other person was doing. And I just, you know, if I just kept my blinders on and stayed focused. It's like, you're fucking right. Like, what person, what person is actually like that? Because it's hard. You get a glimpse and but yeah, you have to, you gotta be like, I gotta turn right back. I gotta turn right back. I'm doing my food. They're doing their food. Like, you can't play defense in this. You know what I mean? It's an all offensive game. Like, there's nothing you could do to make their dish better or worse. So it's just all about how good yours is.

• 27:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  So let's pull back a little bit and look at the entire season because like Sheri kind of like built up as the season went on. Lawrence was always, you know, he came out pretty strong and stayed that way. You came out the gates hot, too. Like, you came out burning it up. And then how did you feel about like, kind of your cooking throughout the season, your arc, your story as they are always like putting together our narrative? How did you feel about your overall on the season?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  I'm going to be completely honest.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  When I won the first two challenges. And you know, they're kind of like making a big deal out of like, oh, no one's ever done this before. And I'm like, yeah, right. Like you guys are just, you know, whatever. It's. It's fine. And so I just kind of.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  I don't want to say that I like. Just sort of. No, I didn't. I would, I will never say I just phoned it in. Like, none of the challenges I just phoned in. But I def- I definitely was a little bit bolder on like. Maybe taking on, you know, dishes that I'm not extremely comfortable doing. And so just to kind of like, you know, because I know I have to fit certain challenges and I tend to like. Take things really literally. Like, for example, the.

• 28:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Me too.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  The monk, the monkfish of debacle, like where I, like, they just hated that monkfish. By the way, side note. That shop, I saw monkfish and I go, hey, is there more monkfish in the back? And I want to make sure that this was never frozen. And so like they brought me monkfish from the back. I smelled it. I touched it. They said it was never frozen. Fine. And the way that they described the whole thing, you know, like that it was spongy and watery. I'm like, this fucking monkfish.

• 29:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  It was frozen.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Definitely frozen.

• 29:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you don't know that until you cook it.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Because the cellular structure, after it's been frozen and those ice crystals break the cells. You will never know until you cook it. Oh, my God.

• 29:31Joe Flamm?

  And then you're like, oh, this isn't searing quite right.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Where's all this moisture?

• 29:36Speaker 01

  And then I honestly thought like, okay, they're gonna look for some dehydrated actual items on the plate. I didn't know that you can dehydrate things and then rehydrate them. I'm like. What the fuck's the point?

• 29:48Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 29:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  So I just did the step just for the sake of it?

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Right. So I was like, okay, this is kind of bullshit, but whatever. It's fine.

• 29:57Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. And I mean, it's like, that's a hard thing of the challenge where it's like, sometimes I felt like there were ones where I was like, I did the most challenging challenge thing. And then like, you know, somebody would win and you're like, you didn't even do the fucking thing.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:09Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? It's like, give me some bullshit. Like, you know, and it's like,

• 30:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 30:14Joe Flamm?

  And like, that's, I think, the most frustrating part. I like the only one that I remember, I like, where it was like one where we were at a, we were at like an amusement park and we had to do like a dumpling and a rattler. We had to do like a German thing and a rattler.

• 30:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yep. And I did something that was so German and they told me it wasn't German because it wasn't their stereotype of German. I was like, you guys don't even know German. Part of my family's fucking German and you're telling me this isn't German?

• 30:39Joe Flamm?

  They're like, das is bullshit.

• 30:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Bull and scheiße.

• 30:43Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I, yeah, I remember I was like, I made like a dumpling with like a pretzel wrapper on it, like this mustard sauce. I was like, this is fire, fire rattler, like all this. And I was just like, totally. They were like, yeah, it was like, fine. I was like, what the fuck? Like, it was like, it was awesome.

• 30:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  I forgot all about that challenge. Oh, that made me so mad, Rowan.

• 31:02Joe Flamm?

  That's the one where it's like, of all the things, like when I went home, listened to my dish, I knew I was going home. Like, it was not good.

• 31:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, the risotto thing?

• 31:10Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, the fucking cauliflower.

• 31:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Joe Flamm?

  Like, I knew I was getting set for making a David Kitch dish for David Kitch.

• 31:18Joe Flamm?

  Like, I knew I was, I was cooked. But like, those were the ones that I still like, think about. I'm like, man, that fucking dumpling was awesome.

• 31:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 31:26Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like,

• 31:28Speaker 01

  I, I definitely, and, and then the whole meringue thing and it, which is so funny to me.

• 31:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Talk about the meringue thing.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  It's so funny to me because I have, in my notebook, I have two recipes for meringue. One for a soft meringue and one for a hard meringue. And I did the soft meringue. And, you know, when you, when you have your ingredients, uh, you can't go to this, back to the store and get some more. And so I used up all my eggs to make this stupid meringue and then I made a soft meringue. It's, uh, you know, that was not my intention and I didn't even think about it, the infamous four hour meringue.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  I'll never live that down. I'll never live that down. And the thing is, I've made that dish so many times, so many iterations. For some reason, I just couldn't make it on Top Chef for

• 32:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's crazy, right? You're like, I know this. I know how to do this. I swear I know how to do

• 32:31Speaker 01

  I've made that dish so many times. And I just, and I love the combination of it. I just like, I knew like I could pull it off. And was I wrong? Boy, was I wrong.

• 32:44Joe Flamm?

  I feel like those are like the famous last words of like any cooking show when somebody's like, oh, this is like my wheelhouse. It's like, you're about to fucking go home. Anytime you say, you're like, oh yeah, this is like, right. Like, I was terrified to say like, I could do like, anything well. Because I was like, the second I said that out loud.

• 33:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Oh, I don't, I don't even say anything.

• 33:04Joe Flamm?

  Going down in a ball of flames. But that's what it's like. It's always gets, because it's different. You know what I mean? It's just different. You're in this weird kitchen. There's weird shit going on. You know what I mean? And like, all of a sudden, this thing you've done a thousand times, you're like, this is a disaster.

• 33:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. And I feel you, Rhoda. I did in like an ill floatant. We had, we had a dessert challenge midway through the show at that, the hotel from The Shining in Colorado. And they wanted us to interpret a dish that, that was like a nightmare. And so I was like, oh, I'll do like an ill floatant where it's like floating in like a red tinted creme anglaise. So it'll, it's like floating on blood. Between the altitude, between everything, I was like, I, I swear I know how to do an ill floatant. But like, that challenge, I was like, I'm just happy the, the meringue wasn't like weeping all over the place. It was crazy.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Oh, I blame the oven, you know, like, I blame the humidity. I blame, like, all these things. I'm like, why is this not working? And then I like, I noticed like how the, the meringue was forming, you know, like there's a, there's a lot more bubbles and it there, that there needs to be. And that's how I knew that there wasn't enough sugar in the meringue. And um, I never lived that down with Tom. He would, he would take a stab at it every time.

• 34:25Joe Flamm?

  Hey, but, but listen, but listen.

• 34:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Tom is so petty, ooh.

• 34:28Joe Flamm?

  You got the last word. You got the last, you got the last laugh. You know what I mean?

• 34:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, you do.

• 34:32Joe Flamm?

  You are, you are the winner of Top Chef.

• 34:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 34:35Joe Flamm?

  Because of the meringue, nobody gives a shit about meringue. You know what I mean? No one's gonna put in your, in your Instagram bio, one time I fucked up a meringue. Season 23 winner, Top Chef. You know what I mean?

• 34:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 34:46Joe Flamm?

  That is on your title every event.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Wait, let me just change that right now.

• 34:57Joe Flamm?

  Watching the season unfold in real time is, you know, as you've just got to experience is the craziest thing, right? Cause it's like all these people watching you on TV, all of a sudden like you're literally on an island.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  I, I am.

• 35:09Joe Flamm?

  So it's like, you know what I mean? And it's like becoming more of a known entity in a small place. Like I'm in a big ass city and I don't play sports. So like people care, but not that much. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's not like, you know, in Chicago, we're a sports town. Like, you know, if I was like a really good high school baseball player, like way more people would know me. But like, you know, it's still like a wild thing.

• 35:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, you're about to be biggest thing on the island. Like this is a huge deal.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  It's a huge deal. I think I'm embracing myself. I think, you know, the, one of the wildest things that, that happened recently was I was hanging out with Jose Andres in Oahu because, you know, who wouldn't?

• 35:53Speaker 01

  And so we were, we were driving around the island and we stopped at this shaved ice place, which is kind of like,

• 36:02Speaker 01

  I don't even know where it is on the island, but it's a, it's in this town called Waianalo, small town. And this lady coming out of the bathroom, I'm standing right next to Jose and then she goes, oh my God, Rhoda, I just saw you on TV. And Jose's right there.

• 36:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love that.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Oh, that was so funny.

• 36:27Joe Flamm?

  It's crazy.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  It's crazy. And then Jose proceeded to tell the, uh, the guys how to make the shaved ice.

• 36:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh. They're like, oh, thanks. Thanks, Chef.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Gosh, Chef, don't embarrass me.

• 36:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  You've got such a cool background. It's just so cool how like you brought your heritage. You live in Hawaii, which is such a beautiful melting pot of different cultures and the cuisines that are represented there. And you have this stellar career, amazing resume. You've worked in all these incredible places and we are so excited to see what you continue to do. So now that you've really leaned in to Filipino cuisine, now that you're starting to get a taste of bringing your personal background into it, do you see that as something that you want to continue going forward and bringing into maybe opening your own place someday?

• 37:22Speaker 01

  I always say there are easier ways to lose money than open a restaurant. So I'm gonna go ahead and...

• 37:28Joe Flamm?

  I don't, I don't know if there's easier ways.

• 37:32Joe Flamm?

  It's a pretty easy way to lose money. I mean, it's pretty hard. It's easy to lose money. It's a hard, it's a hard road. I will say that.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I totally get it. This is kind of where I'm sort of at a crossroads. Because making Filipino food in a Top Chef finale could solidify like my, my future as far as like what I'm gonna do in my career next. But to be honest with you, I'm still incredibly insecure. Like there's so many chefs out there, Filipino chefs that are doing way cooler stuff with Filipino food and just like, you know, really, really good at what they do because like it's something that they researched and they really are very proficient in. And, you know, like I think it's going to require

• 38:24Speaker 01

  me traveling back home and really like understanding what the cuisine is now. And so I think it's gonna take a lot of work. I want to keep doing what I'm doing. I, I love cooking, you know, within the seasons and I mean, who doesn't, right? But having cooked in California for the majority of my career, it's what I know. And so, you know, just... I don't know. It's, it's, it's all up in the air. I, I, I don't want to pigeonhole myself into cooking a certain cuisine.

• 39:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. And I think you make it, you define your cuisine, whether you bring in more components of it or not. Like doing the pop-up series after our season of Top Chef, there were components and there were things that I did. But much like our finale, they weren't necessarily what you think of when you think of the food of black America or southern cuisine. But you have these touches here and there because my background is mostly French and it is mostly fine dining in my career. So I'm also not ready to turn away from that. I love it. It's a huge part of who I am. And that's why I chose those restaurants to work at. And why I learned the things that I did, because that's the food that I want to cook. But yes, I want to bring in a different flavor profile.

• 39:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  So nobody can tell you what to cook or how to cook it or what cuisines to lean into, except you.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Words right out of my mouth, Adrian. That's so well put.

• 39:54Joe Flamm?

  My, my one piece of unsolicited Top Chef winner advice from one winner to another.

• 40:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  You've earned the advice.

• 40:02Joe Flamm?

  As I felt like after I won, everybody was like, you, well, now you got to do this. Now you got to do this. Now you got to do this. You don't got to do shit.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:10Joe Flamm?

  You don't have to do shit. You know what I mean? You got to where you are because of all the work you've done. You know what I mean? You won because of all the hard work you put in, because of your perspective, your point of view. You have amassed that skillset over an incredible career. When you're ready to do the thing you want to do, you'll do the thing you want to do. You don't have to do it now. You don't have to do it in six months. You do it whenever you want to do it. But it's like, I feel like there's so much external pressure right after the show of like, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you fucking don't. You fucking don't. And I think, you know what I mean? That's the most important thing of like, you know, like even like we asked you the question because you know, everyone is curious. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, this massive thing just happened. What now? It's like, what now is like, I'm about to take a victory lap of victory laps.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:55Joe Flamm?

  I'm gonna go cook with my friends. I'm gonna go cool events. You know what I mean? I'm gonna be in, you know, South Beach and ask me to do all this shit. Like enjoy the living shit out of it.

• 41:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 41:04Joe Flamm?

  Ride or die, baby. Let's go.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Listen, I don't know if I were all if you didn't campaign for me. Okay. So I.

• 41:10Joe Flamm?

  Like, hey, hey, you can.

• 41:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe made all the difference.

• 41:13Joe Flamm?

  Adrian will tell you, I have a ride or die. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, what's, what's about your team? I'm like, oh, wait, we're going, baby.

• 41:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hold me till the end.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  The whole time, like, I would, I would present, you know, like, we would go, go out there and Joe is like at the end of the table, like in front of us. He would just go like this, like, yeah, you got this, you got this. And I was like, yeah. I don't see Sarah or Stephanie doing that to Lawrence and Sherry.

• 41:39Joe Flamm?

  It's probably just three hours of, of me and the mic going, yeah, motherfucker. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, just say, like, inaudible swear words that they're just like, they're like, can he stop? Like, just doing this and like ruining every audio clip from this finale.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 41:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, I'm so happy for you, Rhoda. Joe was so pumped to go for the finale and I was so glad that as much as I didn't listen to him, so that it was still a little bit more of a surprise in hearing all this. So, you know, not listening to Joe sometimes pays off. But congratulations, Rhoda. Really, really so excited.

• 42:14Joe Flamm?

  Thank you so much for taking the time. Enjoy your victory lap.

• 42:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, what a blast. That is it for this episode of The Chef's Cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube where you can find full-length videos of every episode. And be sure to follow us at The Chef's Cut Pod on IG. For Joe Flamm, I'm Adrian Cheatham, and this has been The Chef's Cut. Life beyond the past.