Why Issa Rae is NOT Issa Dee

It’s a NEW YEAR, y’all, and we’re kicking things off by diving into one of the most iconic millennial TV trends: making yourself into a character on your own show. Who better to unpack this than the visionary behind the groundbreaking HBO series “Insecure”—Issa Rae! We chat about everything from her latest venture, her hot takes on reality TV , to producing Keke’s new film “One of Them Days.” And to top it all off, Issa reveals her true feelings on some of the most popular New Year’s resolutions in a hilarious round of “Here For It, or Nah.” Let’s start 2025 with some one-of-a-kind inspiration, laughter, and realness! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  This episode is sponsored by longtime supporters of the pod, Airbnb. Today, we are recording from a beautiful Airbnb in the mountains of California that I found by visiting guest favorites. See, this is what I mean when I say some trips are better in an Airbnb. Now, let's get rolling.

• 0:22Keke Palmer?

  Hey there, listeners. So I've been wondering about artists that make fictional stories that are very closely inspired by their personal lives. How do they do it? Does it ever feel too vulnerable? Do they ever make their friends angry by basing characters on them? So I'm having someone on who's a dear friend of mine and someone who produced my new film, "One of Them Days." That's right. Who better to chat with about this stuff than the incredibly talented creator of the deeply personal show, "Insecure," Issa Rae? So get ready, because, baby, this is Keke Palmer.

• 1:22Keke Palmer?

  We are in this very fabulous Airbnb for the holiday season up in Big Bear. Sharon, are you feeling the vibe?

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, honey.

• 1:29Keke Palmer?

  How excited are you for our holiday vacation with the fam?

• 1:31Speaker 01

  I am so excited to not do anything.

• 1:36Keke Palmer?

  I mean, guys-

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Because we've had a whirlwind year. It's a blessing, but-

• 1:39Keke Palmer?

  And every year, we do something as a family. We go somewhere together for Christmas or for also New Year's. Sometimes both. This year, we're doing a fun little Christmas moment in Big Bear because my sister, Lariel, said up and down that she needed us to go somewhere cold this holiday. She was like, "No more tropical places."

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Yes, because last year we were in Antigua. Which was really fun, but before we move on, I just want to say congratulations to you for bestselling author, New York Times, bestselling author, yay!

• 2:10Keke Palmer?

  I live for you, girl, thank you boo.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Master of me, everyone go get a copy, it's awesome.

• 2:16Keke Palmer?

  Oh my gosh, I can't wait, there's so much going on with that after the holidays that we have coming tours. Just more experiences to create around self mastery, you know how much that is important to me.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, but this Big Bear is so beautiful. We were driving up and saw the lake and it's just really, it lets you know there is a God.

• 2:33Keke Palmer?

  Okay, when you're definitely looking at all this beauty, this view. So shout out to Airbnb, shout out to Big Bear. Now, I want to get into Issa Rae, but I also want to get into a little bit of the holidays. Just quickly, how are you feeling about coming to the year's end? Do you have any New Year's resolutions, anything you want to get ready for? I mean, it's been a crazy year, Sharon.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think my, first of all, I'm so thankful for last year. So I have to say thank God that my family was healthy, the kids are healthy. Little Leo is growing up and getting taller and Lili and all of my grandbabies. I just, like, I never do that resolution thing.

• 3:12Keke Palmer?

  I don't really either, I try, but...

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I always lose weight, no, I'm good.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  I mean, I'll never, you know what though, I do want to eat healthy.

• 3:26Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 3:27Keke Palmer?

  Yes, not necessarily about losing weight, just eating healthy.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  I do, I want to eat for energy. You know what I mean, I want to find out what foods would actually give me energy. But what do I want to do? I just want to continue to, you know, just be healthy and see my grandbabies and my kids grow and... That's it, I mean, just very simple things.

• 3:49Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:51Keke Palmer?

  I feel similarly. I just want to incorporate even more balance into my life as it pertains to being... I'm a very ambitious person, you know that I love to, you know, set goals for myself and it gets me excited for the year to have something to look forward to. But as we've incorporated more vacation time, more time as a family.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:10Keke Palmer?

  Um, that also is equally important to me and having that balance throughout my year. And so I think every year I keep getting better with that, and so I want to keep on that road.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  That's awesome, because you know, you work so hard and, and you should have moments to enjoy the fruits of your labor, right?

• 4:27Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  If you're always on the go, always on the go, always on the go, always entertaining other people, always making, being a people pleaser and making sure everybody else is good, that's not good for you. So, yeah, definitely let's find the balance.

• 4:39Keke Palmer?

  I love that. Okay, well with that, let's get into our girl Issa Rae.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 4:44Keke Palmer?

  Who is so fabulous. I've really gotten a chance to get to know her over the course of One of Them Days. And getting to actually see who she is as a producer and a writer on the set of One of Them Days. Just watching her keep the pace on set.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:58Keke Palmer?

  Be ready to always shift gears to make things fun or better, to collaborate with her team in real time.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  That's what I noticed about it. What I noticed, she's very witty.

• 5:07Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Very sharp, very witty, very funny, you know, great with the one-liners. And I watched her as she would be watching the monitor, and then she'd have an idea, and she'd physically get up and run, you know, and collaborate with you. And it was just really a great, um, thing to watch, you women working and, you know, getting along, and it was awesome.

• 5:29Keke Palmer?

  And I think something about her, and something about anybody that has leadership, you know, you can nitpick all day, but it's not easy to be a leader. It's not easy to take all the punches. It's not easy to have to course correct. And so seeing her do that in real time and us to get to the end of the finish line, I do applaud her because it was not easy. We did that movie in 20 days. Now, a lot of what I want to talk about with Issa is also having to do with the fact that she, you know, she is a star in front of the camera. Like regardless of all the great work she's done behind the scenes, from creating Awkward Girl to creating Insecure and everything in between. I even seen Dear White People recently and saw her doing a little part in that. I was like, dang, Issa been grinding. Um, you know, but she's the star of one of the most iconic shows of my generation.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Right, and why is that?

• 6:13Keke Palmer?

  Why is the show iconic?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm asking you that because I'm a totally different generation.

• 6:18Keke Palmer?

  Sure.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  And I enjoyed the show, and I liked it, but I'm not gonna say it was for my generation.

• 6:26Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  But what was it about your generation? Like, for me, my generation was, you know, I-

• 6:32Keke Palmer?

  Living single.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Living Single, yeah, I was a young woman. I was like maybe in my late twenties, maybe twenty-eight. Something like that for Living Single.

• 6:40Keke Palmer?

  Sure.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  I say when I was a teenager, it has to be like The Cosby Show. Something like that. Those were iconic shows that changed the culture. What is it about Insecure that you feel did that for you?

• 6:53Keke Palmer?

  Well, it's interesting because a lot of the shows that you would mention, they're multicam sitcom. So I think that Issa Rae took those elements of multicam sitcom and, and, and applied it to single cam, which is something that was really aesthetically pleasing, especially for a black show. Like up to that point, it had to be like Girlfriends or something like that.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Explain that is because I'm not, is it like a lot of different cameras?

• 7:14Keke Palmer?

  So multicam sitcom would be Girlfriends, it would be, um, Living Single, it would be, you know, thirty minutes or less.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  And they had multiple cameras from different angles.

• 7:22Keke Palmer?

  Multiple cameras, different angles. You know, you got the laugh track in the back, which is like, which is iconic, classic. This is in no way saying that we need to, you know, go away from that. But it is to point out that I think Issa Rae, uh, if I'm giving you a starting point on its impact, is that it was one of the most popular shows that we also saw doing single cam with black nuanced characters with a real specific, um, decision to make amazing cinematic, uh, aesthetic choices in terms of cinematography.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  That's pretty good.

• 7:53Keke Palmer?

  Like all the space in between the actors that gave more impact to the narrative of what was going on. It definitely was huge in terms of leaps and bounds of, you know, representation in the art form. So that's one end of it, I, I personally think.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  So the technical side of it, the camera, the creatives.

• 8:10Keke Palmer?

  The creator, I think it inspired a lot of people to start shooting like that. Um, so yes, I think aesthetically, it gave an opportunity to view into black representation in television in a way that we hadn't all the way seen because it really had a pulse on the things that we were talking about and going through. You know, there are universal truths about coming of age and, and coming of age between twenty to thirty.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:32Keke Palmer?

  On your way to forty. The growing pains of the loss of innocence of, I'm actually not going to have a picture perfect, but I gotta choose joy in the way that's best for me.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:42Keke Palmer?

  You know, I've got to figure out what my. My path is, and again, there's a universal truth of growing pains. But I think the part that if it did or didn't alienate you or someone of another generation, it would be because it was also specific on what was happening with us.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:56Keke Palmer?

  Which was, you know, the social media, you know, the way that we were dating and going out. Also is specific to LA. So either you love LA, you love for that, or you like to know what they doing in LA.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  And you know, you touched on something too, because I don't think my generation, like I was in high school, um, from like nineteen eighty-two to eighty-four, eighty-five. And we didn't have a show like Insecure. We did have a lot of sitcoms.

• 9:23Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  And you know, we gravitated to the sitcoms. And I know for me, when I was about, maybe like seventeen, eighteen, I saw a show called Moon, and this is one of the reasons why Bruce Willis, I'm just such a huge fan of Bruce Willis, because when I saw Moonlighted, it was a show called Moonlighting, it was, it was the way they shot it, the rhythm of the show, the way he talked, it just was fantastic to me. I had never seen any show like that, and I became an instant fan and.

• 9:54Keke Palmer?

  I never seen that show.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  You should see it. It's, I don't know if it, I don't know if it was, it's our show. It was a detective show. It was about a model, uh, Sybil Shepherd, who lost her money. Someone, um, one of her business managers ran off with her money. And so she had to go over all her assets, and one of the assets that she had was this detective agency.

• 10:16Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  And so she's like, okay, this is all I got. So she went in to see the employees, and he was one of the employees. And he was just a hot mess. But the things he was saying, and the jokes he was making, and the rhythm of it, and the way it was filmed, and the, and the, it was just a really great show. And, um, I think for my generation, that was a show that really changed the way we watched television. Obviously, we discovered Bruce Willis and.

• 10:41Keke Palmer?

  And I think that Issa Rae's show, and it's funny because I feel like the Bernie Mac Show, who also, uh, was collaborated by the same person that collaborated with Issa Rae on Insecure, Larry Wilmore, he did something different for the sitcom world when he did the Bernie Mac Show, the way that looked, the way that vibe was.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 10:58Keke Palmer?

  But even still, I think they did something, you know, even more, I guess I would say, progressive with Insecure, because they tackled the reality that life doesn't get resolved in thirty minutes or less.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:10Keke Palmer?

  And I think that's what we love about sitcoms, but it also can be something that you don't love about multi cam sitcoms or sitcoms in general. It's like, things don't get finished in thirty minutes left. I don't get, at the end of the episode, sometimes I don't get to sit with comfort. And that's what, that's what Insecure would. It would make you sit with discomfort at times. You have to wait to the next episode. That's why people would have watch parties and all this kind of stuff.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Maybe I might have to go back. I did, I watched the first season and then I kind of tailed off a little bit.

• 11:37Keke Palmer?

  You know, she mentioned me in the first season because she had this job that she hated, you know, her character had this job that she hated. And she was like, maybe we should just tell the kids that Keke Palmer is coming.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:45Keke Palmer?

  Even if she doesn't show up, we can just apologize later. And I was like, what? I thought that was the coolest thing ever. But yeah, so I'm excited to talk to her about the reality that also on the show, she's Issa D and her real name is Issa Rae. And so how often, how much of herself she put into the show, how much she didn't. Um, because I do think there's a meta art thing going on in our millennial generation in general where being close to your character is almost, you know, seen as a must.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, have you ever played a character that really was very, very similar to you? I know you get this question a lot, but you know.

• 12:22Keke Palmer?

  The one that was closest to me, I would say would be True Jackson VP, working at a grown up job, never really knowing I could work that hard. Because that's what I've always been doing as a kid entertainer. Like, True Jackson VP had a job as a fashion designer. I had a job as a, being a star of my own TV show.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:38Keke Palmer?

  And we both had to figure out how to manage the responsibility of that. And so I grew up with the character True. Um, just as much as I was growing up in my personal world and figuring out who I want to be and how to maintain my goals and chasing my dreams. But obviously I'm not True, you know what I mean? But that's the most, I think that character I identify with a lot.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  I would say that as well. I would say if I were actors there, you know, everybody always say that I, I remind them of this character on, um, Good Times. This is an old TV show.

• 13:10Keke Palmer?

  Wilona?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yes. Everybody's like, you're the loud mouth neighbor, Wilona.

• 13:15Keke Palmer?

  The funny thing about you is that you're actually not a loud mouth neighbor. Like you, you have somebody. has to come to your house for you to get loud mouth.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:23Keke Palmer?

  You know, like you'll get into some stuff with folks, but this takes a second to get there. You can be so reserved.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  But isn't that funny though, how some people see you one way and other people see you another way. I I'm often put in a box. I'm often, people often categorize me as this, you know, mama bear. You know, you better leave Kiki alone. She will attack. And I'm, well, I will attack, but I'm, I don't attack for no reason. You know what I mean? I'm not just this crazy woman running around cussing people out. It's not like that, you know? I really have to be provoked. And I sit and watch you for a while. I'm a Virgo. So Virgos sit back and we watch.

• 14:02Keke Palmer?

  People say that, even though I know you don't like the mama bear, I think people say the mama bear thing because maybe a lot of people aren't doing that as moms. I don't know. But like your trigger point is your kids. I don't care if it's me, Lori, I mean, remember you cussed out the archdiocese when they was being racist towards your private school? So you don't have any problem doing something when it comes to your kids. So I love that about you.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  I just think, thank you. I just think sometimes people need to know that you have their back. And I think as a parent, you should let your kids know you have their back, no matter what the situation is. No, do not hold them if they're criminals and they're doing crazy stuff. You should hold them accountable.

• 14:40Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Don't ever raise kids that don't have accountability. But what I'm saying is, when they're hurting, when things are wrong or going bad for them, you should be there for them to let them know you got their back.

• 14:52Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  And if you're not there, who else will be for them? So I do feel sorry for, for people who don't have that type of relationship with their parents and stuff. Um, but I'm not gonna apologize for caring about my fucking kids. I'm sorry.

• 15:08Keke Palmer?

  That's right. I love that. I love that. I don't know how we got there, but I, I did love the speech. Okay, I'm excited to get in this with Issa, see how much she is like Issa D or if she's really simply just Issa Rae.

• 15:35Keke Palmer?

  You know my next guest from her iconic groundbreaking HBO series Insecure. Since then, she's continued to do amazing things like American Fiction, Barbie, has endless Emmy, Golden Globe nominations, also has an amazing restaurant, Somerville, that I need to get me a seat to go eat at, and of course, her wine company, Via Ray. You know it's my girl, Issa Rae. Hey boo!

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Hey, what's up, Kiki?

• 16:02Keke Palmer?

  You know, everything is good. I'm living a good life because I've gotten to see you back-to-back days because we're doing all this press for our new movie, One of Them Days. How are you feeling?

• 16:10Speaker 02

  One of Them Days, I'm so excited that we got here. I was telling you yesterday, like, this has been a long journey. And props to you because you've been here since the beginning and so much has happened since then for you. Like, you are already doing big things, but I feel like your star has just risen on a massive scale. And you still stayed down. You still stayed committed to making this. So I'm grateful and happy.

• 16:34Keke Palmer?

  I mean, I've been watching you not only in front of the camera, but I get to see a close-up view of you as a producer. I mean, you've been producing, you produced Insecure. I mean, so many different things with Hooray Media, but I'm thinking, you know, how different or exciting has this particular situation been with One of Them Days? I mean, it's Sony Pictures. It's a really big deal.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is different. Producing on Insecure, I mean, so much of it was mine and it was like the TV system and I had a good mentor and apprentice. This was different, a different beast because real shit, they be like, this the money you gonna get and this the time you gonna get, make it work. And that's

• 17:13Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  different in that like there's almost no

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Communication, it's not no communication. It's like, there's no bargaining and you are fighting to prove yourself on every level. And it was fun, parts of it were fun, the development process, but there's also like, on the TV side, there's a trust of your voice and your expertise while they still know what works in television. But on the studio side, they're like, we know that these things work. We have to hit these marks and if not, the movie not gonna be made. So it's like, it's different. I learned a lot and it's helped me even as I'm writing my own movies. Um, right now and like what I'm looking at and understanding and even seeing, you know, previews and that whole process. You don't get that on TV.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  You don't get to test your pilot in front of a real audience and make adjustments. So all of that is interesting.

• 18:08Keke Palmer?

  I love what you said about the creativity because one of the comments that I love the most, and I think it's a testament to your creative vision is, before they even saw Issa Rae name come up on one of them Days trailers, they were like, this is an Issa Rae production. Um, so I'm curious because obviously this is one of the, to me, the groundbreaking things about Insecure. Not only the narrative storytelling, but also the look and the feel. It broke barriers to me in terms of, you know, breaking us out of that, you know, everyday 30-minute sitcom vibe and look and giving us all this different, just like cinematic element to television. So, you know, growing from that, beginning of that show to where you are now, how would you describe your, you know, your aesthetic for your brand of shows or movies? And how did you develop it?

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Um, thank you for that. It's the collaborative process. Like, I take it as a high compliment. And, you know, like for Insecure, the look was set by Melina Matsukis and she's a phenomenal director. Shout out to Melina and she's, you know, she comes from the music video world. She's super notices everything, like just every single detail, every color, every wallpaper, every bathroom tile, like that's her. And then we worked with, um, Ava Perkowski, who has, uh, who was our cinematographer on Insecure and joined us for this movie. So she has such a great eye and, uh, in that way, like my aesthetic is just like, I love LA so much. This is an LA movie, LA set movie.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  And so that's always gonna be a character and pronounced. But generally, I don't. I think it's a feel like this is a movie about female friendship.

• 19:47Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  It's a movie about, I mean, gender creation, all things that we've touched on. And there's maybe a sense of humor that people might associate with me. But it's so collaborative, as you know.

• 19:59Keke Palmer?

  I love that. I love to hear that. Shout out to all those people because you're right, it is a team. And I definitely feel like you have an amazing team. I feel like it's probably the same people that you've been working with since the beginning, would you say?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  For the most part, yeah. Some people I found along the way, but like some of the talent and stuff. Like Sarita, who wrote the movie, we've been knowing each other since before Insecure. And Lawrence I met along the way, but he worked with me on rap shit. So it's just, you get the people you know, and then you find new people who are just like, oh, you're so good. Like, like, join the clique, let's make something together.

• 20:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. I feel like in our generation, there's this big meta art thing that I feel like I've been like looking at. And what I mean by that is I don't know if it's because of reality TV or if it's just because of social media. But we always feel like our life is directly reflecting the art. And I know you speak a lot about how you use your own personal stories a part of Insecure, whether they were your stories or friends or what was around you. And so I'm curious in the process of that, how you made sure to not overexpose yourself or feel like you're being overexposed in terms of creating this character that is Issa D. And still maintaining to be Issa Rae.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  What a good question, and I, I wonder the same for you. Like, I

• 21:17Speaker 02

  I navigated that. And, you know, we weren't through this era where it was just like, people want more of you. They want more of your life.

• 21:27Keke Palmer?

  They want it.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Like, they want to feel in touch and in tune with you. And part of me was just like, no, do they really, no, do they? Like, do I want that? Do, do, am I ready for that? And especially, I think I saw early on with Insecure in those seasons, you know, spoiler alert, my character cheats on her man. And like, the hate that I got as myself, I was just like, dang. This is, people are having trouble distinguishing. Me, like getting called a cheater on the streets? I'm like, it's a story, please. And I was thinking that a little bit personally. But like that, that was interesting to me where I was like, oh, I have to be super intentional about like what I share about myself.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  I like, I like that people are upset with this character. There's a visceral reaction.

• 22:17Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  But I don't want people to conflate me with what they see and overly think they know me. Cause like, everybody thinks you're their best friend in so many ways.

• 22:26Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  And I know that that has to be like, you have to create those boundaries. And you know, it's a high compliment in some ways, but yeah, it's, it's, it's rough.

• 22:35Keke Palmer?

  I ask that question because I do feel like we're both similar. Maybe it's the earth sign energy, but it's like, I do put myself in my work because I want to explore these conversations. It's not because I'm ashamed or I have, you know, I want to be seen as perfect. But it's also because I feel like art is the best place to do that. I don't feel like it's appropriate for me to be like, here's all my business. But for me to alchemize it, you know, that would be so weird if I just came up to you and been like, so let me tell you what I did last night. That would be so weird. I don't want to waste your time. But if I want to take something that I've experienced in my life and have it to be of service to you, then I will represent it in my work. And then I do try to be as private as I can, you know, about my personal life.

• 23:14Keke Palmer?

  Again, not because I'm trying to be secretive, but because I feel like I gotta do that to protect the people in my life, to make sure I have something for myself. And to make sure that I'm using my platform wisely. I don't want to give you bullshit. I don't want to give you bitter ass tea.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, truly, truly. And you touched on it too, like it is therapeutic. Like I wasn't in real therapy till like last year. And there's so, something so great about being able to work that, that out. Like whether you're in the writer's room or on screen or just doing it with yourself, like there's just. It really is just, it's fulfilling in that way to kind of examine yourself and to be a bit more self-aware. So in that way, like, the art is the purest form. And that separation is also like, oh, I got it out and now it's out of me in a way. And now it's for you. Like, that part of the story is for you.

• 24:07Keke Palmer?

  And again, the brilliance of the character Issa D is that she was also living that in her own universe, where she's figuring out how her personal life affects her business and how her security and who she is as a person in her everyday life can make her expand in her world and her career and help her to have clarity and define who she wants to be. And so I want to know for you, graduating from Awkward Black Girl, Insecure, what that world was for you. What is that endgame? In the same way that we figured out what it was for Issa D, what is it for Issa Rae that this next chapter for you has been about?

• 24:44Speaker 02

  This, Jesus Christ.

• 24:47Keke Palmer?

  I know it's been about so much.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's about honing. And honestly, like, that's what I've been trying to, like, lock in on what that is specifically. Because it extends beyond the entertainment industry to me. And I have found that community is really important to me and building. And that can be done via storytelling really effectively in terms of using a platform to shine a light on things that I care about, that are issues. But it's also about doing the work. And I'm like, what's my version of doing the work? I don't want to be in politics, but I can affect politics. I can, you know, create or collaborate in programs. But the next chapter of my life, I think, will be more philanthropic

• 25:34Speaker 02

  in a way that isn't like, I'm not Mother Teresa in this bitch, but I'm like, I care and I want to make sure that I'm not just doing things that are useless in the long run. It is about building legacy.

• 25:55Keke Palmer?

  I feel like me growing up and my experience of going on Tyler Perry sets and seeing how everybody there is like, community vibes. I felt a similar thing with you from even down to the black-owned water bottles that we were using. And I don't know that people understand, like, that's, that's a real commitment, you know, so like, for you, like, was that something that you say to the people on your team and you have, and they make sure that, hey, this is important to Issa, we have to make sure that we have something black-owned, something, you know, like, how did you start making that a me- because, you know, it's not something that you, we can do on our owns. I think people just think, oh, just do it and just say it, but you do have to have people help carry that out. So how did you make sure that was something that was a part of your brand and your production company?

• 26:38Speaker 02

  I'm so glad you said that because it's not, it is, it's something that people have to be like-minded to also be able to carry that out. So it starts with conversations of like, what can we do and how can we help? And if I'm not working with a like-minded, you know, costume designer in, in, um, Iona James and Shiona Turini, like, who are like, well, we're gonna get black designers, you know, that's our part. Or-

• 27:01Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  If, in the props department, them seeing the ethos and being like, okay, well, I found this great black-owned wine company and we, we got this and, and like that, that's, those conversations happen. And once people see other people are doing it, then it's such an easy, it's such an easy thing to do. It really, it's not that hard. And I think once people realize that, and that they're mission-aligned already, then it becomes easier. And that's kind of what I look for in collaborators, is just that general awareness, people who, who are mission-driven. And it's disappointing when they're not, but it's like, then I don't need to, to work with you.

• 27:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. I think that's also something that is good leadership, is the fact that you can empower other people to have leadership and that their voices matter. And you've spoken a lot about also having, you know, connecting to your peers, connecting to your community and your network of like-minded people. So I think that just echoes that same thing. I'm curious of what the hardest part about being a leader has been, or that you've learned in, you know, having to be the leader of something, um, that could be helpful to other people that are entrepreneurs.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  I think general balance of management, you know, leadership is its own job. And when- Comes to like being a creator, it comes to having multiple businesses. Like your, your focus is shifted and it, I think it's really important if you're going to be an entrepreneur to put resources in reading and learning how to be the best leader you can be. Um, and if not, to devote resources to the, the person that you want to, to run your stuff. You know, I think that that's, that's something that I've had to learn along the way is just like,

• 28:43Speaker 02

  as hands-on as I am and as controlling as I am, I need help and I need, I can't, there's certain, there's, there's certain skillsets that I'm just not equipped for yet because I don't have the time to be the best and I wanna be the best, you know? So that's been a learning curve and also just nipping things in the bud when they happen. Sometimes you could see something a mile away and just be like, ah, I'll get to that later. Like, ah, or, or maybe they'll figure it out on their own. Like they'll, they'll handle that, that'll be handled. And then if I had just addressed it in the moment when I saw it, then I would've saved myself conflict or time or whatever it is. And I've gotten a bit better about being like, let me nip this shit in the bud right now.

• 29:27Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm the same way. Cause sometimes I think being the leader, especially if you're somebody that's like, not trying to always be like, I'm the boss of this motherfucker. Then, then you can find yourself like, oh, wait a minute. People actually want me to be like, I'm the boss of this and, and, and set some stuff straight. Because you're, yeah, you're thinking about like, I don't know. Like I'm, I'm trying to make sure I'm supporting everybody's individuality. But then it does, you know, as a leader, it is kinda hard when you're a chill person to be like, no, I'm the person that's gotta set up and be like, mm, mm, mm. But then knowing when the time to do that is right and when not. It's very, it's definitely a thing, you know?

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I don't wanna be reductive, but it is like how, how they say like, like kids need discipline. And obviously, everybody's adults here, but we crave discipline, we crave order. We crave like knowing a direction and that's why you have to be kind of, you have to be. Be confident in in putting your foot down in certain instances.

• 30:25Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I'm definitely learning, learning that myself. Um, so I want to ask you because I think you do a great job. And obviously, you're so huge in terms of representation, not just for women, but friendships, uh, for millennials, for black peoples, the list goes on. But that's also a lot of pressure. So I'm curious of how you manage um, your personal perspective. And then just what people expect to hear or see about us. Like, how much, when do you have to let go of over being conscious about what you're representing?

• 30:56Speaker 02

  I don't think about it at all, honestly, unless, until it's coming out, until

• 31:01Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Like, oh shit, like, this is, this is how people are are viewing it. But when I'm making something, it really is just like what I want to see. I don't think I'm carrying anything on my back. Like, I just want to make the best possible product. And it also comes just innate, it's inherent for me to like, think about the audience that is that I'm thinking about, whether that's, you know, my, my friends and family who are mostly black, like, I, that's, that's what I think about. And then it gets wider from there. But I don't, I feel like I would get tired if I was constantly thinking like, oh, they want so much from me.

• 31:39Keke Palmer?

  I want to know what you thought and what you and your team came to when you guys ended Insecure because I personally really loved and appreciated the way that it ended. And I'll tell you why. Because first of all, I do think that love can be messy. I'm not saying it has to be toxic, but I think that dealing with human beings is not easy at any point, you know? And we talk and give love, Love and Basketball drama and all the romantic classics drama, but I do think there's part of that that is true, that somebody's got to be brave and it's not about gender biases. But somebody's got to say, hey, you know what? We both messed up, but let's get there together. And what I loved about the ending of Insecure with Issa D being such a career-driven person, so smart, so amazing,

• 32:22Keke Palmer?

  um, all these things that she got to define what love was for her without, he needs to be this, and he needs to be that. And once this happens, he's done, girl. Where she was just like, I love this man. And if he had this baby and I still want to be with this man, I'm still going to be with this man. I don't give a fuck what y'all think and how that makes me less of a woman and I got to be black and strong and, look, I'm good, he's good, we're good. I know y'all had to be talking about that because you know that's big for us in our community when it comes to these men's girl. And so, um, you know, a lot of people were like, she should have just ended with her bestie. And it's like, but what she wanted love though, you know? And so, so how did you guys decide that was the best thing to do?

• 33:04Keke Palmer?

  Because it told me so much about you and I really appreciated that messaging.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Thank you. And I love just what you said, somebody's gotta be brave. Like that is, I'm about to write that down because it's so real and so many of like, when it comes to pride too, there's so much pride in our decisions and there's bravery in putting our pride aside and going after what you want unapologetically. And there were definitely discussions in the room. I was opposed to it initially and I went on my own journey because I was, I know I just said I don't think about like the audience, but when something's already on the air like insecure, there's, there's always pressure in series finales and that question is like, it's important and it's long lasting, uh, if you do it right. And I like that people are talking about it. I like that people are mad about it and have questions and I like that people love it,

• 33:56Speaker 02

  obviously. But you know, for me, I had to separate my own personal biases and what I wanted for the character, um, what I wanted for myself from Issa D and I had to objectively look at like her journey and we had set this, Lawrence is her soulmate. I don't care what nobody says, that was her soulmate and we, we wrote it that way. And like, I think for me, what I was going back and forth about was just, yeah, that like the empowering thing that you just mentioned of just like, she chooses herself or she chooses her best friend. She does choose her best friend. She already did that. There was a love story about Issa and Molly.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  But like, I, if I'm watching something and somebody's like, I choose me, that, that's not, that's not for me. I'm sorry, I hate shit like that because it's, it's such a message.

• 34:49Keke Palmer?

  And it doesn't feel like it's for you either. It feels like it's for other people that you like.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  It feels like it's for other people. Yeah. And it's on display and it's just like, go black girl. And it's like, mm-hmm, that's not the story. That I want to say, that's already a part of it. Go Black Girl is always what it is. So for me,

• 35:05Keke Palmer?

  Exactly.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  It was about like, this is what, this girl loves this man. And she has grown, they have grown separately and helped each other to grow. They found their way back to each other and this obstacle happens. But like, as long as they love each other and they're committed to each other and committed to making it work, what's the problem?

• 35:25Keke Palmer?

  Uh, I just love you for that forever and always. Just so, so good. Um, so I want to get into a little bit of your mentorship and also how that feeds into the work you do with your production company. Because you started, uh, working with Sarita Singleton in a workshop you had. And from there, I mean, she started working on Insecure and then obviously she wrote One of Them Days. So what was the process of building something like that? Because here we are again at the basis of community and then also, uh, entrepreneurship. You know, I don't think that a lot of people have systems, especially people like us, that they can be a part of, that will help them graduate to getting to where they want to go. So what was the process of you getting something like that off the ground?

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so interesting because I like, I never thought about it as mentorship because I felt like I was growing too. And it really started from a place of just fandom. Like, oh, man, I really like this girl's writing and I want to see it on screen. Like, how can I use what the, whatever resources I have to ensure that that happens while still continuing to build my own stuff up? And I, I feel like, you know, I'm really grateful to her because she, like, that reading that inspired a whole different division of the company, you know, which, which ultimately became a management company. And so, like, I always talk about the importance of, like, looking next to you and, and building with the person who, who you're trying to grow with. Because that also just, it allows you both to find avenues.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  She's successful on her own, um, I'm successful on my own and we can still come together and, and create. And like, that is a model I've tried to replicate with so many other writers and, and have and, um, and will continue to. But it's just, it, it starts with, I love your work and I want to see you succeed.

• 37:11Keke Palmer?

  Period. Um, One of Them Days, obviously she wrote that. How did she pitch that to you? Was the script already done or was she kind of like, I got an idea for this thing?

• 37:21Speaker 02

  So it started with this, um, when we, when Denise and I first started Color Creative, it was about,

• 37:27Keke Palmer?

  Shout out to

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Trying to, shout out to Denise Davis. Trying to replicate the model of Awkward Black Girl, where I was able to create something online. People got excited about it. It got networks' attention. And then it got, you know, a TV deal. And so for me, I was like, what if I could create these low-budget pilots? And that's how I initially

• 37:45Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Um, met Sarita. And then through that, uh, studios heard about us. So Sony, Columbia, they were like, hey, can we do a program like that? And you can find our, we can find first-time, uh, screenwriters. And so she was one of five selected, uh, with the pitch that she had for what was then known as The Jungles. And The Jungles was going through gentrification. She, you know, spent a lot of time there in her youth. And for me, it was just an instant, like, you've done it again, girl. It's hilarious. It reminds me of those movies in the 90s. And it's about, you know, friendship. It's fun, but it's just, it took a long time to get out the ground. But like, for you, when you read it, what was it? What, what stood out to you?

• 38:29Keke Palmer?

  I feel the same exact way that you said. I immediately went back to, oh, my gosh, this reminds me of the movies I grew up watching and loving. And I feel like it only comes from people like us. That's the, that's the bottom line truth is that our stories are always going to be the best coming from us because we know our culture inside and out. And sometimes it does mean us coming together and doing it quickly in 20 days. Because that's what we got, y'all. We gotta work together. We gotta figure it out. You know what I'm saying? Like, I remember thinking about it with Queen Latifah, the projects that I've done with her from the ground up. One of my favorite movies I ever did was Brotherly Love. Um, and I feel the same way about One of Them Days. It's just, it's a thing that, for me, growing up in the industry, I started out at, at nine years old. It wasn't until I got into my mid to late twenties where people like you existed,

• 39:13Keke Palmer?

  where the barriers had been broken down of behind the scenes. And like, now, not only are we in front of the camera doing it, people of color, but like, they're also really writing the stories. And that's not to say that we didn't have people in the writer room before. Of course, we did. But to also have the cachet for people, for Sony to say, Issa, we trust you. People don't know how tough that is to get through. And it's taken years in our industry. And I just, you know, I continue to like, yes, we moving on. Let's get, let's get more and more and more. Because that's what it really takes also to get the kind of movies that we want in front of the cameras, is people like us telling the stories. And I, I love that you championed Sarita in this way because she really did grow up in that area. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, like,

• 39:56Keke Palmer?

  She from the jungles and that's what people don't know that used to be the name. But then we had one of them days.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, we had to, we had to change it to, to not offend. One of them days is a good title. I give it to, you know, uh, some, some battles, you fight. It's a good title.

• 40:12Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, again, that's when we gotta go to the collaboration vibe and it's like, okay.

• 40:18Keke Palmer?

  We're figuring it out together. You, you win some, I, I win some type vibe.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 40:23Keke Palmer?

  Um, I'm very excited about one of them days. It's exciting. I, I, again, I don't want to be biased, but I enjoyed the movie just as a person myself that want to go to the theaters and have fun. And I cannot wait till people see it, Issa. Like, seriously, thank you again.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  So we were on this marketing meeting and Josh Greenstein, who's the head of marketing at Sony, likened you to Lucille Ball. Have you, had you, have you heard that before? People have said that?

• 40:48Keke Palmer?

  Um, my mom would say like, look, cause my parents are old and vaudeville types and love all the theatrical stuff. So that's, yeah, they used to say that kind of thing.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  It makes so much sense and I, I think what I'm most excited about, like, in seeing you in this role is obviously like, yeah, you are a leading lady. You've been a leading lady countless times. Everybody knows that you're hilarious, but I don't know that we've seen you in this way, you know, on the big screen, as a lead, being your whole acting hilarious, dramatic, beautiful self. And that's like, what's so exciting and like, you know, people know that you're a star, but this is like, she's a fucking star and I can't wait to see what else comes from this because they'll be, they already are, but they'll be knocking at your door for even more opportunities in the spaces that you deserve to play in.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  So I hope this is just, uh, the start of something greater and greater and greater. But I'm so, so excited to, to just have you.

• 41:47Keke Palmer?

  Me too, and I mean also, we were already, I'm just gonna say it right now because you know, manifesting queen, manifesting generator, I mean you producing the Heartbreakers movie with me and Angelina Bassett, maybe that's what's gonna, you know, maybe that's what's gonna be coming next. You know, once I say it, girl, it ends up happening, so.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  It's true, okay, listen, my mission, mission.

• 42:09Keke Palmer?

  I'm ready for this, I'm ready for this relationship between me and Hooray Media. I could talk to you all day, Issa, but I know you're a very busy lady, just make sure you have some more VRay at my house for my holiday party this week.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  No problem.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  We have reservations for you whenever you wanna come.

• 42:27Keke Palmer?

  Can you please comp me a little meal? Just give me a little comp, you know I'm real cheap.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  But, fine, fine, just for you.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 42:37Keke Palmer?

  Before we go, we gotta get into a little bit of a game. I do it with all my guests. This one is called "Here For It Or Nah," okay? I'm going to give you some questions, maybe some potential New Year's resolutions, and you tell me whether you're here for it or nah.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  Easy.

• 42:53Keke Palmer?

  Cool, I love that we had to get a water sip before then, okay.

• 43:00Keke Palmer?

  No more binge-watching reality TV shows. Here for it or nah?

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Nah, that's all I do, that's my comfort zone. We talked about the dating shows, I'll watch every single dating show that exists.

• 43:12Keke Palmer?

  Babe, I'm done with JR on Ultimatum, no shade, no tea, I'm also done with Scotty. I need them to be eradicated. I'm sick of this shit.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  All of them. From Love is Line and Ultimatum, the men have disappointed me. To the point where I'm not watching Love is Line anymore. I'm not, I'm done. They've sold me too many dreams.

• 43:35Keke Palmer?

  It's crazy. Okay, giving up caffeine, here for it or nah?

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Nah, that's like four times a day at least. You're a coffee drinker?

• 43:44Keke Palmer?

  It's bad for me too. Girl, it's bad for me. I be drinking it, girl, and I thought I was always that person. It was like, I've got natural energy until I turned thirty. And then it all was done with.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Same.

• 43:56Keke Palmer?

  It's crazy. Okay, giving up alcohol, here for it or nah? I feel like these are all gonna be nah because what the hell?

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is nah. I'm sorry I got Via Ray. I'm out here and I'm about to get into it tomorrow night. Like, no, sorry.

• 44:09Keke Palmer?

  By the way, I loved when you told me what the Via and Via Ray meant. It's like with Ray. So I feel like I'm sipping my drink with Ray, like Issa Rae. Very cute. Love what you did there.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Thank you, Pani.

• 44:20Keke Palmer?

  Okay, setting better boundaries with friends. Here for it or nah?

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm always here for setting clear boundaries. My friends understand, like, I don't have to do too much, but boundaries are good.

• 44:33Keke Palmer?

  Period. Um, less screen time, here for it or nah?

• 44:37Speaker 02

  I'm here for it. I really wanna try that. I wanna... Do you do social media screen cleanses? Because that's my shit.

• 44:45Keke Palmer?

  I need to, but girl, I'm on that phone morning, noon, and night. I wanna be that person that gives those eyes a rest, but I haven't been.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  I go through my breaks and, uh, they're good for me.

• 44:57Keke Palmer?

  Ugh, well, maybe that needs to be my resolution. Okay, waking up earlier, here for it or nah?

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Always, always here for waking up earlier. I'm a early riser.

• 45:08Keke Palmer?

  Come on, boss. Yes, the early bird gets the worm, they say.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:12Keke Palmer?

  Um, and this is the last one. This is gonna be interesting to hear you say this because you are a Capricorn and you know naturally being ambitious runs into your blood. But also you be like, I need to rest. So I'm interested in what you'll say for this one. Setting more goals, here for it or nah?

• 45:28Speaker 02

  Definitely setting more goals because my goals, my goals are also about pulling back because I do do too much. So it is like refining. That's, that's the year of, it's gonna be the year of refinement, the years of refinement, I should say.

• 45:45Keke Palmer?

  Yes, and I wanna take a page out of that book with you too, girl. I got to reel it in, but in the best way.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  I be tired thinking about show schedule, so I hope so.

• 45:56Keke Palmer?

  You are amazing. I know I said this already, but I'll say it again. And thank you for coming onto the show. Can't wait to see you next.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Thank you, Kiki. See you soon.

• 46:05Keke Palmer?

  See you soon.

• 46:09Keke Palmer?

  Issa is just so good at taking the raw material of life and transforming it into something that really stings and makes us laugh at the same time. I think my biggest takeaway is that fictionalizing your personal life isn't about hiding from the truth. It's about exploring it in a way that shows us a different side of what's already there. So get out there and write some stories and then ask yourself what those stories say about you. I'll see you next time, because you know it's your girl.

• 46:47Keke Palmer?

  Enjoy Baby This Is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts, and now on YouTube where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the Wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby This Is Keke Palmer early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

• 47:11Keke Palmer?

  Baby This Is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post-producer. Music supervisor is Scott Valesquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonte. Our producer is Tristan McNeil. Senior producers are Lizzie Bassett and Candace Manriquez-Britt. Our executive producers are Dave Easton and Marshall Lou.