Oy With the Cows Already (Herodotus The Histories Book 2, Part 2)

Herodotus continues on his narrative about Egypt talking now about the Egyptian people, priesthoods, oracles, and then animals. It's certainly a fascinating narrative, with lots of interesting information that is...completely believable? You never know, but hey it's entertaining and fun to read so let's get into it. Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter our podcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Sources: Herodotus The Histories translated by Tom Holland. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  Hello, dear listeners. We are back on a Herodian shit again this week. Isn't that exciting? And welcome back to Let's Talk About Myths, baby, with Michaela Pangorish. This week, your resident history babe. If you missed last week, we have dove right back into Herodotus with book two. Last week, Herodotus started telling us about all the wonderful things that he learned. Whilst in Egypt and oh, the things he learned while wandering to and fro. The biggest thing seemed to be an obsession with the Nile, which is so fair, honestly, like, I get it, whatever. Yet, that is enough about the Nile for the time being. We are about to get into some more Egyptian history as told through Herodotus.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Now, it's really important to situate Herodotus within his actual context. This is a Greek man from Halicarnassus, but writing most likely for an Athenian audience. This is happening in like the middle of the fifth century. There are arguments about when Herodotus was writing, which is like such a fun argument to be having like, oh. What do you do for research? I argue about when this guy was writing. That's fun, but you know, it is actually really important because if anybody. Any of you know what the fifth century was like in Greece, it was a tumultuous time to say the least. It's actually pretty important to consider what was happening. Was Herodotus writing on the cusp of the Peloponnesian War?

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Was the war in a lull? Was it looming on the horizon but not really talked about yet? All these give very different contexts for the purpose and motivation of his works. I mean, we know that he said his goal was to record the tasks and wonders done by both Greeks and foreigners. By all the people he came across, but the stories hit different depending on where you are at in history. So what is important about his dive into Egypt? I can speculate. I'll need to think on this more. Maybe I'll go into this more next week. We'll see, we'll see. I don't want to make promises. But Egypt is an important place in the Mediterranean, obviously. And during the Peloponnesian War, it was under the control of the Akhenanid Empire, the Persians.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  They were, as they pretty much always are, the grain basket of that empire. The country, mostly because of the Nile, is able to shoulder quite the load when it comes to feeding and supplying people. They are agriculturally rich. Before the Peloponnesian War, as we mostly understand.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  There was tensions with Egypt because of the Persian connection. There was a revolt that occurred in about five sixty BCE. The Egyptian satrap Lee revolted about against the Persians and the Athenians supported them in this. This revolt went on for about hmm three years and overall the Athenians did quite well. But they could just not get the Persian garrison in Memphis. The Persians ended up besieging the Athenians after this and they were wiped out. The Athenians just couldn't keep up the fight both at home and elsewhere. There were further tensions, further fights, further bullshit, and it all ended with the supposed peace of Calius. Which is also debated. Did this happen? Did it not? Who knows? Whatever.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  But it is also not what we're here to talk about, so I'll digress. Leave that for some other time or some other thing. Regardless, an Athenian audience would have feelings while hearing Herodotus's book two. So let's just keep that in consideration moving moving forward.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Oi with the cows already. Herodotus the Histories, Book Two, Part Two.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  So we have discussed the Nile ad nauseam at this point, I think. Surely it won't show up again in detail? And so via it doesn't seem so, so excellent. We can move past it now. Great. But again, I'm just going to be annoying. I know I just mentioned this, but we're going to talk about Herodotus's thesis statement again. He is interested in recording the feats of humankind, the things that were done. But as well as well as that, the wondrous works that were made, the things constructed. Both by the Greeks and the foreigners. So of course, Herodotus is now going to also remind us of that because you see, he says that Egypt has significantly more wonders and monuments than anywhere else in the entire world. Or Herodotus's entire world, what he knows.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  And to be fair, I mean, they do have a good handful of things that they did up to this point. So technically, he's not wrong. I can't really say if he's entirely right, but you know, not wrong. Egypt has a huge history. Before the Greeks at this period, remember the group, the Egyptians in the Bronze Age were a major power. The uh pyramids are built by this point. They are a thing of the past, almost at this point. Like, this is a part of the world, of his world, that was considerably built up. Herodotus now says that it's not only the physical environment that makes Egypt so unique, but it is actually the people as well.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Why is that, you may ask? Well, it's because the people are so totally different than anywhere else. They do things the opposite. It's always opposite day in Egypt, according to Herodotus. You see, the women go to the market and handle the money, while the men, why, they stay at home and weave naturally. Women also are the ones who pee, standing up, while men squat down. Men carry things upon their head while women do so on their shoulders. They eat outside and shit indoors. How odd. Honestly, all I'm getting from this is that means the ancient Greeks shit outdoors. I don't wanna learn anymore. At least there wasn't a communal sponge, I think.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Anyways, a son is not expected to care for his parents when they're older. Unless he wants to, of course, but a daughter, well, she must take care of their pa- her parents. Moving on from these little slices of life, he then starts to discuss priesthood. You see, the gender of the god doesn't matter because regardless of the gender, a woman is not allowed to be a priest in Egypt. Priesthood is only for men. It's their own little club. And where everywhere else priests will wear their hair long, but remember, this is Egypt and it's always backwards day there, so the priests shaved themselves completely bald. This hair routine continues on to the people as well, where in other nations, people tend to cut their hair when a family member dies.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  But not in Egypt, no. In Egypt, when someone close to them dies, that is when they start to grow their hair and their beard long. Further, people in other nations don't live with their livestock, while in Egypt, they let their livestock just chill out inside. I'm skeptical about this one. Not about the Egypt side of things, but the all other nations bit, because like. I don't know, it was just like super common to let animals inside communal living areas all throughout history, so like. Maybe Herodotus is just talking about one specific class of people, but I don't know, could be projecting. Egypt doesn't live off the regular grain that everybody else lives on, that being barley and standard wheat.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  No, Egypt makes their bread from a specific strand of wheat called zeia. Further, dough for bread is kneaded by the feet, while clay is kneaded by hand. Which seems a little unsanitary, but I'm not judging, I'm not judging, regardless, couldn't eat it. Wheat has gluten, and I'm a celiac. Next, he tells us that elsewhere people leave their bits and bobs alone as they were born with. But no, no, not in Egypt, they circumcised themselves there, thanks Herodotus. Also, men own two pairs of clothes, women one, sure. He goes on, there's a lot more in here, but he ends up with mentioning that they have two kinds of writing. One being hieroglyphics and the other being demotic.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Okay, we are moving on from the obstinate day of it all. It's time for other things, namely some fun little religious bits, yay, religion. Okay, so he tells us that people in Egypt are religious to the extreme, as religious as they could possibly be. Anything they could possibly use within a religious right was to be kept as clean as possible and washed after every use. Herodotus says this is a concern also with cleanliness, this was very important to the Egyptians. And this is also reflected in, you know, the circumcision of it all, because they would rather be clean than good-looking.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Which I have questions about, like, what is the implication there? For everyone else, the uncircumcised men, what do they, what do they say, I don't know anything. You know what, I don't actually want to ask that question, um. Just so you know, it is there, it's floating around, but I'm not gonna say it. Well anyways, back to Egypt. The priests were only to wear clothing made of linen and wear sandals made of papyrus. They had to wash twice a day in cold water and twice at night as well. They fully shaved themselves every other day. There was not to be a hair upon their body.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  The priests themselves were provided for by others. They were not expected to purchase their own goods in any way whatsoever. Others made the bread and they were given daily rations of meat. Further, they would never look at a bean. Even the people of Egypt refused to cultivate beans because, I don't know, beans are evil? The gods were served by an entire retinue of priests and interestingly, he says that the priesthood was hereditary, passed from father to son. If a bull was to be sacrificed, he had to be thoroughly inspected by a priest first. A priest would check the entire body of the bull and ensure that there wasn't a single bad mark or blemish upon it,

• 12:29Speaker 02

  or even a single black hair. If the beast was deemed good for sacrifice, well, then his horns would be wrapped with papyrus and a clay seal with the snap of the priest would be put on it. No bull without this mark could be sacrificed. He then goes on to discuss the exact details of what a sacrifice looked like, how the animals were killed and what happened with the body afterwards, from the consumption to the disposal. But he ends this all with a very important note. Cows could not be sacrificed at all. This is because cows was sacred to Isis, who he says resembled Io, you know,

• 13:11Speaker 02

  a statue of a woman with cow horns, yay. But this is where he makes a very interesting note. You see, Egyptians were not allowed to use any Greek utensils or cookware, or even to kiss a Greek upon the mouth. And I can only suppose this is because Greeks sacrificed cows and eat them. But you'll remember from last episode, there was that whole thing with the towns Mari and Apis and the not approaching a cow. And they didn't wanna go along with that taboo because they didn't feel they were Egyptian. There's a thing about cows here. It's fun. Then Herodotus moves to the province of Thebes, where he talks about the locals and their relationships with sheep.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  Quick note, this is not the Thebes in Greece, this is the Thebes in Egypt. There's two. Do I know the origin of the names? Whether the Egyptian side or the Greek? I don't. Should I look into it? Maybe. Am I going to? Maybe. I can't make any promises. Remind me. Anyways, in Thebes, it is okay to sacrifice goats here, but not sheep. He says that the Egyptians do not worship the gods in all the same ways. Isis and Osiris are a special case. They, they do with these two. Um, well, what they do with them is the same and he says that their name, the name for these gods is Dionysus.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  He also says Isis, I think, maybe, or Osiris has a different name later on. It's confusing. Anyways, this whole sheep and goat thing comes from a story. A story about Heracles and Zeus. See, Heracles wanted to see Zeus, but Zeus was like, nah, you can't see me. But Heracles was persistent, like, come on dad, show me yourself. So Zeus came up with a plan. He got a ram, skinned it, and then cut off its head. He then donned himself in the skin and put the head on, like, like a little mask. Ain't that fun? Anyways, then he went and was like, sup, son, this is me. And because of this, the Egyptians made statues of Zeus where his head was a ram.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  Thus, rams became sacred. And to the Thebans, they would not ever, ever sacrifice any rams or sheep, except for one day of the year where they would do such, and then dra- dress the statue of Zeus in the skin, and bring the statue to another statue of Heracles facing them together. Now, I don't, I don't have a good understanding of Egyptian mythology, but all of this really screams of interpretatio greca, where the Greeks are seeing figures that remind them of their gods and making associations. This is exactly like interpretatio romano. Like, it is the seeing a different mythical figure, a different god, in a different region, and associating with one in yours.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Would I like to know more about this? Yes, I would. That sounds cool as hell. But, uh, you know, we'd have to find someone and I mean, that can be done. If you know, let me know. Anyways, then Herodotus goes on to talk more about Heracles. See, he believes that there are two Heracles figures, the divine one and a mortal one. But he also makes it very clear that the one known to the Greeks was not their own, but one they adopted from the Egyptians themselves. The evidence for this being that Heracles' parents, Amphitriane and Alchemene, are Egyptian. So that's where his origins lie. I'd have to ask Liv more about this. She's the myth one. I'm the history one.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  We can even find someone to talk more, um, you know, Heracles. But it is very interesting. Keeping on with Heracles, Herodotus sails off to Tyre to find out more about Heracles there. You remember where Tyre is, right? It's in the Levant, modern day Lebanon, recently bombed by Israel. Anyways, moving on, keeping going. He goes there and speaks to the priests at the temple to Heracles. He asks how long they have been around. And they say that the shrine was made when Tyre was some twenty-three hundred years ago at this point. Further proof that Heracles is a figure that didn't originate in Greece. He then says the most insane thing, like, God, I love this man.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  He says just some of the most bad shit, wild things, and it's great. Anyways, quote, "But the Greeks are forever making claims without first researching them." End quote. See, he says the Greeks have a story where Heracles arrives in Egypt. And the people there put a garland on him and lead him off into a procession, where they then started to take the steps to begin a sacrifice. Once Heracles understands what is happening, he goes into action and starts attacking, killing them all.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  All this says to Herodotus is that the Greeks had no understanding of the Egyptians because they didn't sacrifice people, only specific animals. And how, how could Heracles kill thousands of people if he was only a mortal man? He digresses, hopefully the gods do not smite him. He then goes to talk of the Mandeisians, who hold goats as sacred because they hold Pan as one of the, one of their eight gods. Honestly, okay, so what I'm getting from this entire section is that the religious environment in Egypt was diverse and multifaceted. It changes from region to region. And while wide swaths might have been similar, the details were specific. Right?

• 18:50Speaker 02

  So, you know, a one province has X amount of gods and X animal, or Y animal cannot be sacrificed while the other province, you know, that changes. After this, he then goes on to explain that the Egyptians also consider that the pigs are unclean and they would not even deign to touch one. And those who keep pigs are pretty much like ostracized from the community, modern definition of ostracized, not unclean, ancient, yet pigs will be sacrificed at one festival to the moon and Dionysus.

• 19:41Liv Albert?

  This episode is brought to you by Quince. You know the drill. Quince makes elevated, everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. I have been... Speaking into a microphone about Quince for a while now, and I have no complaints. I have a bunch of their stuff. I've got a couple cute sweaters that, I mean, it's nearing sweater season, so those will be back in the rotation anytime now. And I have this leather bag that I absolutely love. It's like this braided leather and I use it like basically every day. Because that's the thing, they have really great basics. Like they have really great things

• 20:27Liv Albert?

  that you can wear with so many other things. Just the options are endless. And as the weather gets colder, like all the sweaters in my closet, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe, from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves, to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch. And of course, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And if we haven't learned anything in the last 10 years, isn't it just getting rid of the middlemen, you know, making things more affordable? So find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for

• 21:12Liv Albert?

  app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was me. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 22:03Speaker 03

  That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 22:06Speaker 04

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody listen. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  So we're moving along in our wonderful little narrative. Herodotus then goes to say that the names of the gods in Greece came from Egypt. Except for Poseidon, the Diosgauri, Hera, Hestia, Themis, the Gracids and the Nereids. All the other gods' names came from Egypt. See, all those other gods probably actually came from the Pelasgians, he says. Except for Poseidon, of course, who obviously came from the Libyans. He claims the evidence for this is that their names can be found in each of these places. Now, I don't have time to go into all of this. I mean, it's truly a complicated matter, but to simplify it, people move, people talk, people share. You're going to find hints of all kinds of cultures everywhere and in everything.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  And that's okay, but right now we are keeping with what Herodotus says. And what Herodotus says is that so much of Greek religious culture came from Egypt. So we'll just continue on that front. Next, he speaks on the customs that were adopted. He starts with herms. You know what a herm is, right, guys? It's the bust, the statuey block thing that has the head of Hermes on the top and then an erect penis on it. The thing that Alcibiades apparently chipped away at, which if he did do, I didn't blame him, but I don't think he did, whatever. No, so with the herms, okay, well, what does he say? Oh, he says that actually the herms didn't come from the Egyptians, but they actually came from the Pelasgians.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  The Athenians first started making herms when the Pelasgians brought it to Attica. So, the Pelasgians settled in Athenian territory, right at the beginning of Greekness in Attica, and eventually came to be understood as Greek as well. These Pelasgians used to live on Samothrace, where they had then given the knowledge of the rites, the people of Samothrace, and the rites of the, I forget, what is it, the great goddess, I think? And then they came to Athens, and because of this, the Athenians were the first to make herms, as instructed by them, I guess. Something to do with the matters of great holiness, which was only revealed after being initiated into the sacred rites on Samothrace,

• 25:02Speaker 02

  that the Pelasgians gave them. I don't know, man, like, look, I love Herodotus. I just, I just sometimes wish things were a little more linear and a little more fleshed out, maybe. I'm having complaints, that's fine. He then says the Pelasgians did prayers after every sacrifice, so the Greeks did too. And that they didn't use names for the gods, they just called them gods, theoi. That is, until the Pelasgians came across the Egyptians and heard those names. After that, they went to Dodea to talk to the oracle there, the first oracle in Greece, didn't you know? Oracle, do we use these names? And the oracle's like, yeah dude, of course you do. Thus, they got the names of the gods. I love oracles.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  They're also so much more eloquent than I make them sound, but I'm just condensing it down, and it's fun, who cares? Anyways, but what about the origin of this oracle, because that's important? Not only this one, but the oracle of Zeus Ammon as well. You see, the Egyptians say that two priestesses were abducted from Thebes, the Thebes in Egypt, that is, by Phoenicians. One was brought to Libya, making the oracle of Ammon, while the other was brought to Greece, to Dodea, making the oracle there. The Greeks tell a different story, though. Their story goes that two black doves flew from Thebes. One went to Libya and the other to Dedona. And at Dedona, the dove there landed upon an oak tree, opened its mouth and proclaimed in a human voice,

• 26:28Speaker 02

  "Here an oracle of Zeus shall be." So they did just that. Well, Herodotus must give us his two cents, and his is that there were indeed two women who were kidnapped. And the Greeks only say the dove story because, well, first of all, the dove was black because the woman was Egyptian. And secondly, a dove because she would have spoken in her native tongue and would have been incomprehensible to the Greeks. She would have sounded like a dove cooing, I suppose. And suddenly, one day, she figures out how to say something in Greek and cried out the whole oracle thing, and the Greeks were like, aha! A voice, and a language we understand. That's Herodotus's theory at le- least.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Next, he goes on to talk about various festivals because, don't you know, it was the Egyptians who started celebrating festivals in groups to begin with. Obviously, who else could it have been? He goes on to talk about various different festivals, and while I'd love to sit here and go in depth about them all, I am only like halfway through the material I planned to get through. So I'll just direct you to the relative chapters. Book two, chapters fifty-eight to sixty-four, and move along in the narrative. Now, we're going to talk a bit about animals, because, hell yeah, animals, love them. And Herodotus's observance on them, which also, hell yeah,

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Herodotus's ob- observances, love it. See, Egypt, according to Herodotus, does not have many animals. There's not much variety. But despite this lack of variety, every animal there is considered sacred.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  It is considered the greatest crime to kill an animal. If you do so purposely, you are sentenced to death. If by accident, well, then it's whatever the priests say. And there are priests, see, because every one of these animals have keepers and these keepers are the priests. The keepers make sure that the animal is being taken care of, you know? And this job is also hereditary. There's lots of hereditary jobs going around Egypt and religion, whatever. Well, there's also one practice of cutting the children's hair. The priests would cut their children's hair, either all of it or part of it, and then weigh it. And whatever weight it is, they would get that in silver, which they would then use to buy fish,

• 28:54Speaker 02

  that they would then feed to whatever animal they're taking care of. That's, it's just the way it goes. It's what we got. Anyways, let's talk about specific animals because, well, that might be fun. And we're going to go into detail on this a bit, folks, because none of you can stop me and I like animals and here we go. So, uh, let's start with cats. The Egyptians liked cats. Does that surprise any of us? But there are some interesting bits about cat reproduction, which Voditis feels is very important for all of us to know. To start, a female cat who has had a litter of kittens will want nothing to do with the male cat afterwards.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  She will ignore any male cat that comes her way, which, you know what? Fair. I get it. Go her. But this isn't great for the male cats. They don't like this. They want the attention of the female cats. Look at me. Aww. So, what will they do? Well, they will take the kittens away from their mothers and dispose of them. Kill them. The, the male cats killed the kitchen, but it is very important to Voditis that we all know that they don't eat the kittens. So hey, you know, that's great. Well, now that the female cat doesn't have any kittens, she will go back to the males because of course she does want kittens after all's. Well, the next little bit of information

• 30:18Speaker 02

  is about cats and their admiration of fire.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  This is insane. So cats apparently love fire and I'm just now realizing that I think I get it because the way I get my boy Crow to calm down is I will turn on the fireplace. And he just goes straight to his bed, curls up in front of that fireplace. And he gets so toasty. He becomes the toastyest boy. He's like, I swear to God, he would sit in the fire if he could. Which is relevant. So actually, maybe you want to just this is crazy here. But anyways, so in Egypt, if a fire does break out, the people don't immediately rush to put it out. Instead, they make a long chain so that they can wrangle the cats.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  And why is this? Well, when the cats see the fire, they will get so excited that they will run towards it and fling themselves into it. Because why not?

• 31:17Speaker 02

  And honestly, after thinking about it, my boy would. So actually, I can't say anything. This is very upsetting to the Egyptians. They don't want this to happen. Thus, the human chain, whose only job is to try and stop the cats from throwing themselves in the fire. And when a cat does die in Egypt, well, the household it belongs to will shave off their eyebrows in mourning. But hey, if a dog dies, they will shave their entire body. So just saying, just saying. That's not a competition, but I'm just saying. Back to the cats. When a cat dies, its body is sent to the city of Boubastis, where it is then mummified and buried in a sacred pit.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Female dogs also get to be buried in a sacred tomb, but male dogs are buried in their hometown. This also happens with the mongoose and field mice and hawks, though they are taken to the city of Bhutto. I resist to hermopolis, but bears and wolves will be buried wherever the body was found. And now, oh, now we're gonna move on to crocodiles, which if any of you listen to Fridays we air, then you might have an idea of what I'm about to relate to you. First, Herodotus tells us about what a crocodile looks like and how it behaves. They have four legs and don't eat for four months of the year. They live in swampy areas, in the water and on land.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  They lay eggs on land where they spend their days, but during the night, well, during the night, they go into the water. Because the water is warmer at night. Crocodiles start small, but then grow so very large and is the only animal that is apparently like this. Its eyes are like pigs and it has massive teeth which put food through from its mouth. But doesn't have a tongue. Also, only its upper jaw moves, the lower one stays motionless. Its claws are powerful, nothing can get through its scaly hide. In water, they can see nothing, but out of it, everything. I, I don't know how Herodotus knows this, but we'll let him have it.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Its mouth is full of leeches because it lives, you know, in water. Other animals avoid the crocodile because it's always ready to just mess things up, I guess. Except for the plover, the, the sandpiper, a bird, who is like the crocodile's best friend. Why are these guys friends? Well, you see, when the crocodile comes upon land, it will then turn to the west and open its mouth as wide as possible. The sandpiper will then run up and snatch all of the leeches, leeches out of the crocodile's mouth. And because of this, the sandpiper is the crocodile's best friend and they are happy to chill with each other. Which I believe, like, this is an actual thing, you know, it's an actual symbiotic relationship that happens in nature with a lot of animals.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  Large mammals or large reptilians, uh, they, that live in these environments, you know, fish do it as well. The, it's a symbiotic relationship. Do I think the crocodile turns to the west? No. But maybe, actually, that could be possible. Anyways, well, the Egyptians do have some divided opinions on crocodiles. Some feel they are incredibly sacred, especially those who live in Thebes and around Lake Muwiris. They will choose a crocodile at a young age and then bring it up in an environment close to people so it will become tame.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  They will put glass or gold earrings in their ears and give them beautiful bracelets to wear on their, on their little front legs and just, oh my god. Please, just imagine this, like, could you imagine it? It would be the cutest thing in the world. I just keep thinking of little crocodile feet and their adorable, you know, little stumpy feet. And then they're just wearing these like beautiful little bracelets on them and it's so cute and it's like actually gonna make me cry. Cause that's how cute it is. I, I cry over cute things. I had a dog named Zoe or Bean. And her head was the size of a mandarin orange and I, I just, I shit you not, sometimes I'd just hold her head and cry. Because I was like, your head is the size of a mandarin orange. She was a pug.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  The little stumpy legs with the bracelets, that's so cute, but also, okay, wait a second, also, where are they putting these earrings? Because last I remembered, um, crocodiles don't have ears that you can like grab and pierce. And now I'm starting to like gaslight myself into thinking that they do and.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, they definitely do not. So where exactly are these earrings going? I don't know. I'm scared. Let's just move on. Anyways, these crocodiles also get their own special food. And their own sacrificial victims as well. And after they die, they are also mummified and put in a sacred tomb. They lived the good life, but like I said, the Egyptians were divided on their opinions of crocodiles and other parts. The crocodiles weren't considered so sacred and they could even be eaten. So, once again, we are getting a picture of Egypt as a diverse place with many different traditions depending on where one is. Alright, we're moving on to our next animal, the hippopotamus. And this is where shit gets wild. Okay.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  No, this is wild. I put a note in here saying it's not that wild. No, this is wild. I'm standing on this one. This is wild. Anyways. As you might expect, one of the provinces actually considers hippopotami a sacred. Who would have thunk? Anyways, Herodotus says that they have the most particular appearance. Four legs with hooves like a bull. They are snub-nosed with prominent tusks and here I need to quote him. Because this is where I lose my shit and I will continue to lose my shit. And I just need to give you the quote. So, quote, "Not only do they have the mane and tail of a horse, but they neigh like one as well."

• 37:21Speaker 02

  And quote, and just, I'm never gonna be able to let this part go. And I, I, I mean, I should go look at the Greek and see what it says. Uh, but I'm not gonna do that right now, so I'll just keep with the translation. But what the actual hell, Herodotus, what? What hippo are you looking at? What hippos out there have a mane? And a tail of a horse like last I checked, they have these little stubby, you know, pointy hair, uh, tails that have absolutely no hair on them and they definitely do not have a mane and neigh. They neigh like a horse. I've heard a horse in person and I've heard a hippo on a video and they really like, they do not sound like each other at all, or I don't know.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  Did hippos look different then? Did they? I doubt they did. I doubt hippos had manes and could you imagine? A hippo with a mane? That's ridiculous. That's not, that's not, that's, that, I just, I, okay, I'm getting really incensed about this and I need to calm down. I'm like going to calm down. Maybe, let's find out. Yeah, I'm fine anyways. I I need more information on this, this particular passage. It's so short, but it's just like eating me alive. It it's fine, whatever. I can handle this. I can handle this. Okay. Herodotus also says that hippos are big boys, big, big mammals, and they have thick skin. So thick that when it's dried, they make spear shafts out of it, which is really cool.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  They also have the mane of a horse. Anyways, sorry, moving on. Herodotus goes on to tell us about a sacred bird called the phoenix. Which he never actually saw, but there was a painting once, so you know, could be real. Apparently, it is a very rare bird and only comes by once every like hmm. Five hundred years? When it does, it comes because its dad died.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  So I just can't. Anyways, it's red in color, flecked with gold. And it looks the most like an eagle. Now, the Egyptians say that the phoenix leaves from Arabia to the sanctuary of the sun in Egypt. Where it then buries its dad. I just, okay, no, I I can do this because this is fun and that's just wild anyways. The phoenix transports its dad by making an egg out of myrrh. Which it then practices flying around with and after it is confident, it can carry the egg and fly. It's put its. It puts its dad into the egg and then seals it back up and then flies off to Egypt.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  Herodotus finds this story hard to believe. And I couldn't possibly understand why he could think this was unbelievable. I for one completely believe this story. Next, he talks about a snake that lives near Thebes with horns, two horns. And it is small and does not harm people. Apparently this snake is considered holy to Zeus, so it is also buried in the shrine when it dies. And that's enough about that snake, because now it's time to talk about flying snakes. See, there's this place near the city of Buto in Arabia, where there were flying snakes. Herodotus went there once and saw many, many bones of these snakes just lying around.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Apparently, every spring, these snakes take flight and leave Arabia for Egypt. As they are making their way, they need to move through a pass where there are many, many ibises, who just go to town on the snakes, man, blocking them from moving in and killing them all. The Egyptians love the ibises for doing this, and I have actual questions about this narrative, because it sounds super xenophobic to me. Like, there's just, there's something about it that feels like a xenophobic metaphor with animals. Uh, but, you know, what do I know? I'm just a native woman living in Canada. What could I possibly know about xenophobia? But moving on to ibises.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  The first one he speaks on is completely black and has the longest legs and has a beak that's all hooked. These ones fight snakes, the flying snakes from the previous story. But there's also another kind of ibis, the ones that like to live around humans. These ones are bald, but the feathers they do have are white. Well, except for the tips of their wings and the tail and the neck, those feathers are black. Other than that, it basically looks exactly like other ibises, you know, long legs and hook beaked. And then Herodotus ends it all with one little last bit of information, that um, the snakes look like other snakes, except they have featherless wings like a bat.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Thanks, Herodotus. You know, you could have put that with the flying snake section, but sure, finish it off here.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. Isn't that all of that wild? Like, I swear to God, Herodotus is just such an interesting author to read. We are making our way through this book as well as quickly as we can. Well, not really. There are points that I could probably cut down on at all, but like, come on. If I did that, we would miss very important details. Like that hippos have manes and horse tails. And that's just something we can't leave out, cuz, you know, that's important. Regardless, this was a really interesting section. We didn't see anything about the wonderful works that were created. We'll get there. We're gonna get there. I trust it. But we are starting to see the ways that Herodotus views the Egyptians.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  They really appear as progenitors to Greece and Greek culture. Where do the gods' names come from? Egypt. Where do cult practices come from? Egypt. But also, at the same time, we see the ways that he makes divides between Egyptians and Greeks and other peoples. You know, he starts this part by telling us that the Egyptians do everything very differently from how the Greeks and the rest of the Mediterranean world do. They do things the complete opposite. He really goes out of his way to make it clear how different the Egyptians are from the rest of the world. And what is the purpose of this? Because now we see that they are different, but they are the progenitors of important cultural practices.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  This is important. Like, this sticks out. This is... It's something I'm trying really hard to think of what it could be, but it's also like 2:30 in the morning at this point, and I've been awake since 7:00 a.m. So my brain is just like, you know, like, the dial-up noise at this point. And like, I know, "Michaela, why are you awake at 2:30 in the morning?" And it's because I ADHD procrastinate myself into this situation. And I know Liv would be chill if this episode came out later than expected, like, later today. And I know you guys would all be chill about it, but I refuse to do that. So instead, I'm gonna suffer now, maybe the rest of the day, but it doesn't matter. You're getting this. Maybe I'll be fine, actually.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Anyways, moving on. Herodotus is saying something. Saying something with this juxtaposition and I would love to hear your theories. So tell me your theories in the Spotify comments. I want to hear it. I want to see it. And also, what, what do you think of what I just was talking about with the hippo mains? Actually, someone might have more information on that that I just don't. And I would love to hear that from you. So please. Anyways, toodles my doodles. See you next week. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's written and produced by Liv Albert. You've heard of her, right? The absolute queen. Michaela Panglish is the Hermes to all you Olympians. The producer, duo of other things behind our many. Select music by Luke Chaos. Thank you, Luke.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, a collection of creators that all strive to bring you accurate and reliable information on the ancient world. These include the wonderful friends at Movies We Dig, the partial historian Sweetbitter, and so much more. Get ad-free episodes and much more by subscription to the Oracle Edition on Patreon at patreon.com/MythsBaby or via the link in the episode's description. Are you a scholar or academic or an expert in something from antiquity, from Greece to Rome to Egypt to anywhere in the Near East? We would love to have you on the show as a conversation guest. Go to mythsbaby.com/contact and fill out our podcast guest form.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  We want to hear from you. I want to hear from you. Reach out. I will email you back. Seriously, please. I want to hear everything. See y'all next week with whatever what it is wants to tell us then. Bye bye.

• 47:06Speaker 04

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 47:37Speaker 05

  Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.

• 47:43Speaker 06

  Love the crown molding.

• 47:45Speaker 05

  Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.

• 47:49Speaker 06

  Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.

• 47:52Speaker 05

  No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.

• 47:56Speaker 06

  No FiOS? Yeah, no thank you.

• 47:59Speaker 05

  Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.

• 48:02Speaker 07

  Get Verizon FiOS, because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

• 48:25Speaker 03

  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 48:36Speaker 03

  That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 48:41Speaker 05

  Enemy of My Dreams by Jenny Williamson is a historical romance novel set in the time of the late Roman Empire, where Alaric, a brutal Gothic warlord, and Julia, a Roman princess, with a love of good wine, team up to take down Rome. The much awaited sequel, Game of Thieves, comes out December 8. In this sequel, Julia and Alaric must overcome centuries of conflict to work together, or the turbulent riptides of rebellion and the demons of their past will tear them apart. And now, for a limited time, when you preorder Game of Thieves through Burning Pages Bookstore, you'll get a signed book plate and a free art print of one of Jenny's favorite spicy scenes from across the series.

• 49:26Speaker 05

  Get this amazing artwork only from Burning Pages at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves. Don't wait. Order your copy from Burning Pages today at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves.