Halsey: Power Dynamics & Toxic Relationships (FBF)

Join Alex in the studio for a sit-down interview with Halsey. Halsey opens up about her volatile childhood, loneliness, the danger of using sexuality as currency, breaking the cycle of toxic relationships, and finally finding happiness with her fiancé. Halsey also discusses their health journey and their new album. This episode is so powerful and insightful... Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 0:43Alex Cooper?

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• 1:28Alex Cooper?

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• 2:09Alex Cooper?

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• 2:54Alex Cooper?

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• 3:14Alex Cooper?

  What is up Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

• 3:23Alex Cooper?

  Halsey, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 3:25Alex Cooper?

  I am so happy that we're finally doing this. I feel like I've been waiting to meet you for so long.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  I know, me too.

• 3:31Alex Cooper?

  So, thank you for coming. I realize that some of the Daddy Gang may not know that your legal name is Ashley, and Halsey is a stage name. What do the people closest to you call you?

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Ash. Everyone calls me Ash. My son just started calling me Ash. I was like, you better... Get it together. I'm mommy to you, okay? Like, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna have to make him a shirt, make myself a shirt that says, call me mommy.

• 3:56Alex Cooper?

  I'm obsessed.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  He's like, he goes, Ash. I'm like, mm-mm. He goes, well, I wanna call you Ash. I'm like, well, you can't.

• 4:04Alex Cooper?

  You can't. I'm mother.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  I know. I don't know how to explain it to him in a way that doesn't sound like so like, psychotically, like, you have to respect me and give me this name. Like, there's no way to explain it. Like, he's like, why can't I call you Ash if everyone else does? I'm like, that's a great question.

• 4:19Alex Cooper?

  No, it's true.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  But I just don't like it.

• 4:20Alex Cooper?

  But I also think it's like, the rite of passage, like, when you become a parent. You're like, give me at least like, ten years of calling me like, mom and mommy.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're three.

• 4:29Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  You can call me Ash later. Like, it's like, it's so funny. Yeah, it's, it's crazy.

• 4:34Alex Cooper?

  Is it weird if anyone in your life would like, refer to you as Halsey?

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Some people do. Like, I think it's kind of interchangeable at this point. I like, answer to it the same way as if it was my name. It feels the same in my body.

• 4:47Alex Cooper?

  It does.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  You know, like, it feels like, it's like, it registers the same emotionally as if someone says Ash or Ashley.

• 4:52Alex Cooper?

  Have you ever looked at it like it's an alter ego?

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Um, recently, yeah.

• 4:58Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  I didn't mean to when I started. It was just a name, because my name's Ashley Frangipani. And like, you can't you can't be Frangipani, you know what I mean?

• 5:07Alex Cooper?

  You have to say it in your New Jersey accent.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  My name is Ashley Frangipani. So, you know, there was no, that wasn't happening. So, it was just supposed to be like, an easy, like, moniker.

• 5:16Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, I would say like, a couple of years ago, I started having thoughts, like, that were like, oh, that's very Halsey, or like, I dress like this when I'm Ash, and then I dress like this when I'm Halsey. And then I kind of was like, whoa, when did I start differentiating between the two? Like, when did they become two separate things?

• 5:35Alex Cooper?

  Was that like, freaky, or no?

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Kinda, yeah. Cause I was kind of like, how did it happen?

• 5:40Alex Cooper?

  What is the difference between Halsey and Ashley? Like, give us an example.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Hmm, well, you know what's funny is I think Ashley is like, like, when I'm Ash, like, I'm definitely way more, I think, masculine.

• 5:52Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Than when I'm Halsey. And I'm not really certain, like, where that's kind of started to divert, you know what I mean? Like, when I'm home, like, I'm like a, I'm like a boy clothes, short hair, like, not to like, gender clothes, but like, you know what I'm saying?

• 6:06Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  And I'm definitely kind of

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I think that Ash is like less provocative. Like I'm very like chill, very patient. You know what I mean? Like very like maternal. And then I feel like Halsey, a lot of people have this idea that I'm like really provocative and like, you know, I'm like always like yapping, I'm a big yapper. Halsey's a yapper. Ash is not so much a yapper.

• 6:36Alex Cooper?

  Have you ever become like a little resentful of the persona that you've created?

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. I think that the part, part of the problem though is that like, you know, people just kind of decide who you are based on like when they got to know you. You know what I mean? Like I've been seeing a lot of that happening like every now and then like I'll see like a comment under like a picture of like me and my partner and someone's like, I thought she was dating blah, blah, blah. And it's like someone from like six years ago. And I'm like, oh, your update. And like, I don't expect everyone to know everything about me that's going on at any given moment, but like they just locked in something from like a big press moment or like a time when I was like really on or like they were reading about me a lot. And they were like, and that's who you are forever. And I'm like, whoa, it's been like six years. So much has happened.

• 7:22Alex Cooper?

  That's like kind of a mindfuck mentally to be like, no, no, no, I've progressed and grown, but you guys see this persona that like was very there in your minds and it never grew. And I'm like fully grown as a human being. And yet Halsey is just like almost like stuck in time for people, which I think a lot of celebrities or performers have that like. And everyone decides when they want to grow with a performer or not. Like it's fucking confusing.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:49Alex Cooper?

  How would you describe your relationship to fame?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  I'm kind of indifferent at this point. I used to be like, it used to be not that way. It used to be just torturous. You know what I mean? Like I, I will say like, it never really felt normal. It still doesn't. Like I've, I've been doing this for like 11 years. You would think at this point that I would just be like, yeah, I'm famous. Uh, no, that is not how it is. I like still wake up every day. And not in the like, I wake up every day and I'm like, oh my God. It's more like I wake up every day and I'm like, what the fuck? You know what I mean? And I think that I also like, I've kept like a lot of really normal people around me and.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  You know what? Actually, that's the distinction. That's when the distinction started happening was that was that when I started to become like a celebrity. Like the distinction between Halsey and Ashley, I think is very much that like Ashley stayed the same. You know, we're like when I'm out with my friends, like my best friend Erica, um, she's my best friend since I was like thirteen. And she's like, she says to me like. Once a month or like a couple of times a month, like we'll be out somewhere doing something and someone will be like, oh, can you picture this like a paparazzi is like whatever. And she'll be like, dude, I like just forget you're famous every day.

• 9:02Alex Cooper?

  That's the best.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  I just forget all the time. And she's like, lived with me. She's been around for like every step of the journey. She's like. Backstage at the VMAs with me and then like the next day she's like, I forget you're famous. I'm like, how were you at the VMAs yesterday? How did you forget? And she's like, you just are still so, you're exactly the same as you were. You know what I mean?

• 9:21Alex Cooper?

  I do think like that's so important to have though, because at the end of the day, like all these people that are famous, it. You're famous for like something that you're really good at. Obviously, some people are just famous because they're famous, but like you are so talented and your talent has made you famous. Of course, but with that, like you are just still a human being that like likes to sleep and likes to eat and likes to chill with friends. And so I think having those like friends around you. Must still make you feel like the person from New Jersey that was just growing up and like had a talent. I think that's helpful to have. When do you feel most like yourself? Like what would you be doing?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Um, well, I'm pretty boring. I didn't used to be. I like, I got it out of my system. You know what I mean? Like I, I had like a couple of years where I look back on it like cringe into like a black hole when I see those photos or like. But I'm also really grateful for them because I just like did it in a contained set of years. And then I'll never have to do it again. So like now I'm just boring like.

• 10:21Alex Cooper?

  No, you're not boring, but I know what you're talking about. I think we all have that where we're like, what was I doing? Like what, what would you say you did that was cringe?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, there's like so many pictures of me just like. Fucked up, like leaving a club, like, like paparazzi, like it's like three in the morning. I'm like, what are you doing? But also I was like twenty two, you know what I mean? So when I see that I'm a gentle with myself about it, but like, or like times where I like. I don't know, there's stuff that's like maybe cringe, but also maybe part of me, I'm a little bit like, go off. Like, you know, like I clapped back at someone or I like, you know, like I went off or something like that. And like, I see that and I'm like, gosh, you were so angry and so confused and so like overwhelmed and like you had no one to help you. So I have like a lot of compassion for that version of me, but then there's also times where I'm like, girl, shut up. You know, I'm like, shut up.

• 11:14Alex Cooper?

  No, I think that's like, no matter if you're famous or not, like people can look back at old Facebook photos and be like, what was I up to? Like, what was going on there, Alex? But then at the end of the day, you're like, well, I was fucking young and like, I was having, I think a good time.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  I mean, I didn't go to college, you know what I mean? So I didn't have like those years and it's funny, the same like, I feel like the same people who will pass judgment for like photos of me in like my twenties, like not even in my twenties, like at twenty. You know, cause I was nineteen when I wrote my first album and you know, there's like pictures of me from that time and people are like, oh gosh, like, and I feel like there's this almost indication of like no class. And I'm like, what if I were at like a university? And like, these pictures were just like on Facebook or like whatever. And I was just like going at like, you would just consider that a natural part of me, like finding myself and like, you know, but because there's this extra set of expectations. I think there's like a separate judgment that's passed and like, I try to, I try to like contextualize it that way and be like,

• 12:13Speaker 01

  girl, you would have been doing the same thing if you stayed in Jersey, if you went to Rutgers, you know what I mean?

• 12:18Alex Cooper?

  Oh, it would have been worse, actually. I was gonna say, if you went to Rutgers, you would have been like face up on a keg stand. Like you would have had pictures of you on the keg stand. Like it would have been similar if not worse.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  I know.

• 12:31Alex Cooper?

  Um, how do you choose what to keep private and what to put into your art and your music?

• 12:41Speaker 01

  I don't know that I really choose.

• 12:44Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  I think it kinda, I just like write what I'm feeling. There's a song on this album called Hurt Feelings and it's about my dad. I've written a song about my dad every single album and every single time, just when we get to the time where we're deciding the tracklist, I cut the song. So I'm like, I can't do it. I'm too scared. I'm too scared. I'm too scared. And this time I didn't and I put it on the album. And that was like a moment for me where I was like, okay, this is something I have kept private, but now I feel ready to like get out there and I feel like I have a responsibility, kind of.

• 13:14Alex Cooper?

  Do you have a relationship with your father? Like, does he know this is gonna be on the album?

• 13:18Speaker 01

  He doesn't know it's gonna be on the album. We have a pretty complicated relationship, which is like, you know, I don't think that's like groundbreaking. I feel like a lot of young women have complicated relationships with their fathers. I think for me especially, you know, I started making music when I was eighteen and it kinda started to blow up when I was nineteen and it just changed everything about our family's dynamic because I became the breadwinner and I became kind of like, you know, in a way like I became like the matriarch, patriarch of my family. And I think that, you know, for a man who spent his whole life like working really hard to support his family.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  And then, you know, I kinda come in and I'm like still a kid to him and I take that role. I imagine that's probably, uh, just like conflicting.

• 14:11Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  You know, and like an existential level and it definitely showed up in our relationship and so it's like affected it since, yeah.

• 14:17Alex Cooper?

  I can imagine that was very confusing for both of you, like also you coming in being like, I don't know what the fuck to do either. Like this is, and when you do look back, what is your earliest childhood memory that comes to mind?

• 14:32Speaker 01

  It's so hard. I'm like one of those people that doesn't remember like a lot of their childhood. I had like a really, I had like a really hectic childhood. My parents were young when they had me. They dropped out of college. They met at Fairleigh Dickinson in Jersey and then they were like nineteen or twenty when they got pregnant. They'd only known each other for like Couple months and you know, they both dropped out and started their family with me. We moved all the time, every year we moved. Like I wasn't at a school until like high school, I wasn't at a school longer for than like two years. And I was always starting over in a new place. We were just trying to go where there was like cheaper apartments, better jobs and parents working like multiple jobs and like. My experience felt so irrelevant to like what they were going through. You know what I mean?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  It was like my, I think that when I look back on my childhood. My expe- my experience was very much to just like not get in the way.

• 15:24Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Cause of how hard it was. And like I failed at that miserably. I was getting in the way all of the time. You know what I mean? And then I I feel like that has probably attributed to like why I am in like the line of work that I'm in. Cause it's like, you know, we're all looking to satisfy some sort of like. Now, I don't wanna say need for attention, cause I feel like that's like derog- like derogatory, but like. Maybe like.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  We're looking for our voice and our experience to matter, you know?

• 15:54Alex Cooper?

  But don't you feel like even hearing you say that when you're like, I was always in the way. I'm like, yeah, but I feel like that's what kids are supposed to do.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 16:01Alex Cooper?

  And like I imagine you though, like under those circumstances of your parents constantly having to move. You were like hyper aware of just like stay over here, like don't do anything, don't like get in the way, like. I'm not that important right now. Do you remember like what you felt about when you would like view your parents like romantic relationship?

• 16:22Speaker 01

  My parents were like really like.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  I guess kind of volatile, like they were either like super in love. And like cuddled on the couch, like laid the fuck up, like you know, going on dates, like obsessed with each other like kids. Or they were like at each other's throats. There was like no, no in between and you know, like. I've actually never really talked about this before, but my household was like pretty, um. My household was pretty volatile. You know what I mean? Like there was a lot of like, um.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  There was a lot of like aggression, you know what I mean? Um, and aggression just like thrown in every direction like, you know, and I think that it's so funny cause I, it's so obvious that you, we witness that you form that as your perception of, not necessarily of what love is, but what's acceptable in love, you know, and then that you apply that. When I look on past relationships of mine, I'm like, okay, I'm like literally this is two plus two equals four. Like it's so simple, you know what I mean?

• 17:36Alex Cooper?

  It's fucked.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:37Alex Cooper?

  And then, oh, that was, that is why I went for this, but it like seemed so simple, but it's like not also.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:43Alex Cooper?

  Cause you don't catch yourself immediately doing it. And then when it's like a pattern, then you're like, whoa.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  I know. And then it's funny cause you think you do the work and then like a different trauma sneaks up on you. Where it's like, okay, so you're like, all right, I'm gonna tolerate like violence or aggression or like whatever it is because I experienced it. Um, but now I'm gonna unlearn that so it never happens again. And then you get into another relationship and you're like, this one's better cause it's not like the last one. And then like a different thing sneaks in. You know what I mean? Where it's like, the person's like putting you down or they're like, I don't know, like gaslighting you or like whatever. And you're like, is this a whole other thing?

• 18:18Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  I'm, this is a whole other thing. Is it all just my childhood again?

• 18:22Alex Cooper?

  No, it's like whack, no, literally it's like whack a mole because you're like, oh, maybe it's not like physical this time, but it's like emotional this time, but it's all under the same fucking umbrella.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 18:32Alex Cooper?

  First of all, thank you for sharing that. Cause I feel like you're someone that like you're, when you write in your songs, like it's so fucking powerful. And I think a lot of people connect to you on how real you are in your lyrics, especially this new album coming out. When I was listening to it, I was like, I need, I feel like I need to pull over. Like this is, this is like, it's very heavy and emotional.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:51Alex Cooper?

  And I feel for you, but I think a lot of people can sadly relate to what you're going through. When you were in those moments with your. Parents and it was volatile like were you someone that would just like be alone and not tell anyone? How would you like?

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:09Alex Cooper?

  Basically go get through it?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  I think I kind of coped in that way where just like waited for it to be over. You know what I mean? Also, like it it changes hands when you're in a household like that, like it usually starts and it's like you can kind of feel it happening to your mom and I'm the only daughter and the oldest.

• 19:25Alex Cooper?

  Okay, wow.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  So there was definitely a point where like the target kind of changed to me. And you feel, I think, really alone in that in that sort of situation. I definitely just mostly coped by writing. I've always been a writer like my whole life and you know, I like used to keep journals and like keep diaries and stuff like that and I read a lot and I def I was someone who kind of like I was into escapism for sure.

• 19:53Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like novels and like just putting myself into like other worlds that just felt like different than mine.

• 20:00Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. Would you ever talk to your mom like about it since she had?

• 20:04Speaker 01

  I have.

• 20:05Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I have. My mom and I are super close.

• 20:08Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's like, my mom is like my my best friend and you know, we have talked about it and like I think there's a couple of stages of it, right? Because then there's the first part where you have to be like, hey, why didn't you stand up for me? And then there's the second part where you have to be like, also, I forgive you. You were going through a lot. And then there's like the third part of it, which is like, there's still stuff you do today that pisses me the fuck off. But I understand why now because you know, you've been conditioned, you know what I mean? In a certain way and like you have to have just like so much grace and and understanding and like at a certain point, you have to just decide, you have to decide what's forgivable, right? And some things are and some things aren't like I don't stand by the thing with people where it's like,

• 20:52Speaker 01

  oh, like they're your parents, like whatever it is, it's not that serious. Like, you know, you have to, you have to just like make sure you keep the relationship. Like, I don't agree with that at all. But then at the same time, I also don't agree with the idea of like, we should punish our parents forever for what they did to us. It's like some things you forgive, some you don't, and that's up to you to decide, you know?

• 21:12Alex Cooper?

  Good point. And it takes so much fucking time because like the resentment, I feel like goes in and out, like depending at where you're at in life. Like you can be like, okay, we're feeling good now. And then like something like triggers you and reminds you of something they did when you were younger and you're like, Oh my fucking god. Actually, we're not done with this conversation.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 21:32Alex Cooper?

  More shit I just remembered. And it's like an endless cycle, but I agree. Like,

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:36Alex Cooper?

  It doesn't, it can't just be black and white where you forgive, or it's like all perfect. Like, there's gonna be conversations that keep having to happen.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:43Alex Cooper?

  I think also something interesting that you were talking about was like going to all these different schools.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:48Alex Cooper?

  Like, when we are young, a huge part also of like what forms our personality and our tendencies is like, our relationship with our friends and our peers. You going to new schools constantly? Like, how did you approach a new school?

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Um, I was definitely like, this is an opportunity. You know, I was always like, if there's something I wanna try out, or someone I wanna be, like, I can do it here, cuz no one knows me.

• 22:09Alex Cooper?

  Oh, interesting.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  You know, like, when I was growing up, I was like, Ashley with a Y. I was like, Ashley with two Es.

• 22:15Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  There was like one school I was at for like a really short period of time where I was like, I'm Ashley, but everyone calls me Sky. It's like, not true. I made that up. I was like nine. And then, like, it was like years later, I was like in a bar in New York, and someone came up to me, and they were like, Sky. And I was like, what? And they were like, Sky. Like, we went to school together. And I was like, bitch, I'm,

• 22:33Alex Cooper?

  Stop.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  I don't even remember being that person. Which is ironic now, cuz if you know anything about me, like, as an artist, like, you're like, that tracks. Like, you're const- you constantly look and seem and act like different, you know?

• 22:45Alex Cooper?

  But that's kind of like fun and tough as a kid.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:50Alex Cooper?

  You're constantly not having to have this like stable foundation of around you of like, I went to the same fucking school from like, kindergarten to eighth grade. So like, we all knew each other's parents, and we all knew each other's shit. Which has its pros and cons, but like, constantly moving, I feel like you can, yes, reinvent yourself.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:08Alex Cooper?

  But you also, I feel like, aren't really seen then.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  No, definitely not. Yeah, you're just, it's like fragments of you out in the world, just like these little whispers of a person who's like barely even formed. Like, my manager Anthony has a tattoo on his arm, and it's a tattoo of his childhood home. And he was like, yeah, it's like a drawing of my childhood home. And I was like, bitch, I don't, if you asked me what my childhood home was, I can't think of one, cuz like, I had so many. Like, I can't, I can't picture like a childhood home. I lived in like eight houses, like apartments, like, you know what I mean?

• 23:38Alex Cooper?

  You couldn't even like draw something.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  I mean, I would have to, if if I had to pick one that was like my childhood home, like maybe the house I lived in when I was in high school, but that's not really childhood. You know what I mean? It was like, I lived in so many different apartments. I lived in like Florham Park, I lived in Linden, I lived in Clark, I lived in um, like Sussex, I lived in, I just lived in so many different places in all these like little apartments and they're all just kind of this like this like amorphous goo of like a bedroom and I'm like in there with my little brother and then there's like the kitchen and then like you know, like the apartment complexes, they all like blend into like one, like when I picture it, kind of.

• 24:19Alex Cooper?

  I'm interested to get your take on this, like what do you think is the difference between like hyper independence versus loneliness?

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's whether it's forced or it's a choice. You know what I mean?

• 24:34Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  I think that's kind of the difference. I think like if you're choosing to be hyper independent because it's like it's better for you and like you function, you know, better in that way versus if you're forced into hyper independence because you're not trusting or you have like an attachment issue or like, you know, you're um, you put a lot of so like a lot of pressure on yourself to succeed or to accomplish, that's kind of that like loneliness, like that solitude, like.

• 25:06Alex Cooper?

  Would you say you were lonely as a kid?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my god, yeah. I was so lonely. I was, I'm still lonely. I'm like, you know, loneliness is like when it affects you on you know, I feel like there's like clinical loneliness, you know, it's like, there's like, there's being sad because something happened and then there's like obviously like depression, which is like, you know, it's clinical. I feel like there's a version of that with loneliness, you know, where it's like you're lonely because people aren't around and you have no one to hang out with, you're lonely because you're going through something singular. Then there's like deep, like carnal loneliness. And I think that I've definitely felt that way for like a lot of my life.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  And it's hard to fix. You know, it's like, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard to to. Get around that, especially if you become comfortable in it, you know?

• 26:06Alex Cooper?

  Well, and I feel like what you're sharing too about your life, which I appreciate you sharing all of this just to pause for a second.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Is that getting so dark?

• 26:14Alex Cooper?

  No, you're not.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Fun podcast. I was lonely as a kid.

• 26:17Alex Cooper?

  Let me just say, like, this is the shit that I think, like, when we now, like, listen to your music, it even adds like more context and like, in my opinion, like, I feel, not in a creepy way, but like, I feel closer to you now, because I'm like, oh, fuck, like, so many people are like, preach, yes, same, same, fuck, same, like, you talking about your childhood, I think that when people are listening to your music, it's, it is kind of helpful to know, like, no wonder you are lonely, because like, you came from this household environment that you had to become lonely, because you constantly were just like, surviving alone, and like, I think that happens a lot of times

• 26:59Alex Cooper?

  when there are volatile or abusive situations at home, like, if there's multiple people getting abused, you can't even connect in the moment over it, because you're just surviving, and then you talking with your mom later on down the line, like, of course, you wish you guys could have bonded over or talked about it when you were that young, but you couldn't, because you didn't have the tools, either of you, to be like, this is happening, sometimes, a lot of times, it takes getting out to be able to talk about shit.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  And it's generational, you know what I mean? Like, I always say, it's like, our, like, a lot of, for a lot of us, our parents were in the generation of survival, we're the first with the luxury of existential thought, you know what I mean? Like, they didn't have the luxury to like, be,

• 27:38Speaker 01

  like, putting, putting thought into, you know, their existence, or like, the roles and dynamics at play, or like, you know, the reasons why they're doing something, like, it was mostly just like, surviving, you know?

• 27:50Alex Cooper?

  I'm really interested to talk about this high school glow up that you had, because I could not relate more to something. I know that you've mentioned in the past, you were kind of like, insecure and unnoticed, and then going into sophomore year of high school, you had this glow up. Can you talk to me about that time of your life?

• 28:22Alex Cooper?

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• 29:06Alex Cooper?

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• 29:50Alex Cooper?

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• 30:34Alex Cooper?

  fragrance, Lieb L'Eneu. Lieb L'Eneu is a citrus floral masterpiece, alcohol-free and completely liberating. It's a fragrance that makes a statement the moment you wear it. I love how it feels fresh, light, yet still bold. It is the perfect balance of feminine and daring, and it's got this incredible staying power and leaves my skin feeling radiant and glowing. It really is the perfect balance of citrus and florals. It's so fresh and sexy. If you are ready to experience something new, trust me, daddy gang. Lieb L'Eneu, a refreshing twist on the iconic Lieb Ode Parfum. I personally have this fragrance and I will say, my favorite

• 31:17Alex Cooper?

  thing, although yes, I love my husband thinking I smell good, there is nothing better when women or your girlfriends compliment you. And every single time I have worn this fragrance, my girlfriends are like, no, what are you wearing? Give it to me right now. That smells so freaking good. And Matt is obsessed with it. I'm always looking for something that has a fresh citrus floral scent, but it needs to still be that perfect balance of not overpowering, but still bold. And this has exactly that. So daddy gang, if you want to try it out, shop now at Sephora. Going into sophomore year of high school, you had this glow up. Can you talk to me about that time of your life?

• 31:56Speaker 01

  I was like really underdeveloped. You know what I mean? I was like really skinny. I like didn't hit puberty until like a lot later. And I was like super nerdy, the glasses and like, you know, um, I was like, yeah, I was just a geek. And then, you know, I hit puberty and like I came back and all of a sudden I had like huge tits and like, you know, I got contacts and like, I, um, I also kind of like, that was where I sort of entered my like, I kind of entered my villain era, like when I was like 15, where I was like tired of being nerdy and geeky. And I was like, fuck you guys. Like I actually have really cool interests and I hang out with adults. Like, which is not good. That's like a whole other separate bad thing.

• 32:39Alex Cooper?

  We'll get there.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I felt very like, you know, I felt very like emboldened by that. And this is like at school, like. I don't know, my my coping mechanism of like not getting along with the kids I went to school with or not like really fitting in and having a friend group was by telling myself it didn't matter because I had like cooler, more interesting friends and people I knew, most of whom were just like online, like didn't really hang out with them in real life. And I was like, you know, we're talking about like, you know, intellectual things and like whatever else. But yeah, I definitely, um, I feel like everything really changed really fast for me. And I went from someone who was like,

• 33:18Speaker 01

  look, who looked like a nerdy ten year old when I was fifteen to like someone who was getting like tons of unwanted like sexual attention. And I was like, what the fuck?

• 33:31Alex Cooper?

  How did having like, cause I experienced a similar thing of like overnight going through puberty and being like, no, no, no, no, no. Like the same guy that's like bullying the fucking shit out of me is now like wanting to like take me on a date.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 33:49Alex Cooper?

  Hold on, pause, you fucking piece of shit. Like, nothing changed except my looks and yet,

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:55Alex Cooper?

  now you're into me. Like, how did that impact the way that you like felt about yourself?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Um, I think it did in like a lot of different ways. The first was I had to like differentiate, you know, between what attention was like kindness and what wasn't. Cause my first instinct is I was like, oh, people are being really nice to me now. And I just missed the agenda completely. And like, that was really hard to navigate because I didn't have a lot of experience with that. And I, it took me a long time to learn, like, if someone is like giving you that kind of attention, you're not obligated to return it. I was really afraid of like making people mad or making people not like me and like, you know, on, on like the simplest level, it's like a guy will be like an asshole to you if you are kind of, if you reject him.

• 34:43Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  And then on the worst version of it, there's violence, you know what I mean? So it was kind of like, it's, I had to learn how to navigate, like, I am not obligated to concede or to give in to the sexual pursuit of me. Just because it's happening.

• 34:59Alex Cooper?

  But it's hard because when you go from not experiencing any of it, that like a lot of your peers are experiencing. And then all of a sudden, all this validation comes like, I remember when that happened to me, I felt at first so excited, like kind of like you're talking about, there's that like excitement of validation. But underneath it, I think when I was alone, I had some like anger, because I was like,

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 35:24Alex Cooper?

  What, like, i- is it, it's so surface level, like, I've been the same person the whole time, but you guys like, didn't give me any fucking attention until I had tits and an ass and like,

• 35:34Speaker 01

  That's when you have to start doing the would you have been nice to me before, and if the answer is no, then bye.

• 35:38Alex Cooper?

  Bye. It's really confusing.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:41Alex Cooper?

  Um, you said once that you thought your sexiness was a superpower, kind of like we're talking about.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:47Alex Cooper?

  And made it so no one could hurt you and you would enter these rooms just like,

• 35:51Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 35:51Alex Cooper?

  Feeling that confident.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I definitely wielded sexual power as like a, you know, uh, I don't know, like as a, as a tool of acquisition, you know, like I definitely used it in certain circumstances, because it was kind of all that I had.

• 36:06Alex Cooper?

  Can you give me an example?

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Well, like, you know, if you're in a room full of people, especially men, you know, and in this business, as I was starting my business and I was learning how to navigate the industry, it's not just like, I write songs and like, I'll have to build a business, you know, um, you're in a room full of people who are more experienced than you, they're older than you, they're richer than you, they're very often men, white men, you know, and at the time, I was, I started out by trying to be like, look how smart I am and look how much I know, and it was kind of like, okay, and I was like, well, that's not working, okay, and then at a certain time, I think in the beginning, I kind of figured out, like, I can make all of these like really smart men dumb instantly if I'm just hot, you know?

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Like, it's so crazy how fast they become stupid, like, there's, they have so much power over you in the moment where you're like, all the experience, the money, the power, the whatever, and then you have this one little magic trick in your pocket where you can just be like, really? And all of a sudden, that guy is like, uh, and you're like, oh, God, that was so easy. It's like, why wouldn't you use it if you have it then?

• 37:12Alex Cooper?

  And I think so many people can relate to this, like, I do think, yes, like, women can relate to using that part of us that is so sexualized.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:25Alex Cooper?

  And leaning into it, you can feel this like, great, great energy from it, and it's like-

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Until it becomes, feels gross, though. Until it gets gross.

• 37:35Alex Cooper?

  And it feels gross pretty fast, I feel like. And I think, like, a lot of conversation I always see online, like, I know Emily Radikowski has, like, talked a lot about it of like, there's this weird fucking thing where you know you can use it to an advantage, but then you also have to, like, have some ability to, like, navigate for yourself what you're comfortable with and what you're not comfortable with.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:59Alex Cooper?

  Like, when do you think, if you have, like, a memory that you were like, oh, I'm, I'm taking it too far, this actually is, like, I'm, I'm not feeling chill about this?

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, there's been, like, a couple of times. There's definitely, like, some times where, like, I was, you know, I was, like, out with, like, some collaborators, and it was, like, late, and like, um,

• 38:21Speaker 01

  someone was just like, we were kind of like, playfully flirting in a way that was, like, seemed really harmless. And then they got, like, really drunk, and they just started kind of, like, touching me, like, in public, and I was, like, whoa. But at the time, you know, you're, it's like, I was younger then, but it was like, you don't want to cause a scene, you don't want to, like, you know, there's other people there, you don't want them, them to see you freak out, and then they don't want to work with you because they think you're a drama queen, and like, whatever else, and, and, you know, and these are all, like I said, younger minded belief systems of mine that have obviously since changed now that I'm older, but like, it was those kind of things where I was like, this is not worth it, you know, it's beca- it's becoming unsafe, and I, uh, I, I don't want, you know-

• 39:06Speaker 01

  I don't want this to seem like I'm signing a uh I'm signing some sort of invisible contract where I'm promising something to someone.

• 39:16Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  You know?

• 39:17Alex Cooper?

  And I think the concept of like being a young person in a situation where there's a power dynamic like you're just it's such this like hard thing to explain until you're in those situations where you referenced it earlier of like I didn't want to make this person upset and I didn't want it to escalate where it could literally get to the point where it goes like violent so you kind of just like appease the situation and I think that is where it can get really scary and it and you keep just like we just can appease people and like make it be like oh no, no, everything's fine, everything's fine and it's like but then you go home and you feel like gross and shitty.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  With you. I had like a really strange situation a couple of years ago. I mean, I guess it was quite a it was quite a long time ago. But I was out and I was with this uh executive, like this really powerful executive who works in music in some capacity. And I'd been going out and like hanging out with him and like some other people at the company and like, you know, we were working together and like everything was like really fine, like it was very just like um celebratory and like there's a lot of like industry talk. I didn't feel weird about it at all and I like had like my two managers with me who are kind of like older guys and like I never felt like unsafe or anything. We were out one night and like

• 40:36Speaker 01

  he was like, oh, like I want to send a photo to like my niece of us together or something like that and I was like, okay. And I like took out my phone. I took like a selfie, the two of us and I handed him my phone and I was like, text it to yourself. I have to pee.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  And then I went to the bathroom and when I came back, he like handed me my phone like this and I saw he was like going through my nudes on my phone.

• 40:57Alex Cooper?

  What is wrong with people?

• 40:58Speaker 01

  And I like sat down and I was like

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Actually, I didn't even know what to do. I was just like frozen. I was like, did I just imagine that? Was that an accident? Did the phone like scroll out? Like, what, what the heck just happened? And then I was like, did he text them to himself and then delete the messages? Like, I don't even know where these are now. Like, I was just like, I was like frozen and I was like, that's so crazy that like, I'm in this situation where like, I have so much power. I have a bodyguard. Like, I have a, I have a secu- a bodyguard. And I have, you know, all the leverage in the world. And I'm in this like exclusive space in this like VIP, like, you know, I've reached the ranks of like, oh, I am

• 41:46Speaker 01

  protected or like whatever else it may be. And then this invasive thing just happens like on a whim. And I was like, oh my god. I was, I, it made me feel,

• 42:03Speaker 01

  I felt like it regressed me so much. Like, it made me feel, I went from being like, yeah, I'm like fucking hot shit and I'm one of the big players. And like, and I sat down and when that happened in that moment, I was like, you're nothing. You're nothing. You'll always be nothing. You're still just like that fucking girl who's like getting, you know, taken advantage of or like men are talking about you behind your back or you're some sort of like collateral. I was like, you're nothing. It was so demoralizing.

• 42:31Alex Cooper?

  It's so.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  And so many worse things have happened to me than that, but that one stuck out for some reason because it was so nonchalant.

• 42:39Alex Cooper?

  Right. No, that like, that's what I think it's so, I appreciate you sharing the details even of like, you're where you at, you're in your career, you have a fucking bodyguard. And it's like, I think, and, and you technically like, we revert to that like little child of like,

• 42:56Alex Cooper?

  Men ruling the world and us just having to appease them like we were just talking about and you in that moment like No, of cour- and people be like, why didn't you just say something? It's like, you don't get it until you're fucking in those moments where it's like There is kind of nothing to say, but even if you said something, then you're the crazy bitch that it's like, oh, and then someone calls you a slut. Cause then what do you mean? What are you talking about? You're nudes? You take nude? Like, they can turn it so fucking fast on you.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Also, it's like, are you a, are you like a bad bitch businesswoman? That's the other thing is like, at what point, you know, where is the line between like, I am a powerful woman, so I have to stand up to myself and the line between that and I'm a powerful woman, so I have to not let Certain things bother me so that I can outplay these men in the long game. There's so much to think about in that moment, you know what I mean? It's like, am I gonna let this bother me? This like pathetic squirmy little worm action of this man when like, I could just let it go and then I'll get the last laugh because I'm building my business and I'm looking out for my life and whatever. Or like, do I have a responsibility as a woman in a position of power to stand up for myself in that moment? I don't know which is what is expected of me.

• 44:05Alex Cooper?

  I don't think anyone in your position or Anyone really in those moments knows what to do, even like the highest of powered people like, And I think that's why this is a really interesting conversation because it's like, You, you're so fucking right. Had you said something and made a scene, Then you're just like, oh, she's like the crazy bitch. Like, no one work with her anymore. She like makes stuff up and she like, Uses her like sexual being parts of herself as like a way to like get people in trouble. We don't touch her anymore.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Oh, she's like a black widow. She'll flirt with you and then she'll like screw you over later. I'm like, whoa, okay.

• 44:40Alex Cooper?

  And men don't have that experience where they're never being like overly sexualized in those moments. They're like, oh, can't relate, gotta go, ew, she's crazy bitch.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, get off of me, whatever, totally.

• 44:50Alex Cooper?

  It's not only is it the best interview because you're fabulous, it's also like, I have been wanting to have these type of conversations with someone That gets it and can talk about it, but also is not like above it where you're like, You are in it and you've experienced it and I think so many young- People are gonna be like, yeah, fuck, thank you for just talking about something that we don't have the answer to any of this.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  No, also, I think people look to us and they're like, so what do you do in those situations? Cause they're like, oh, thank you for sharing. So what's the solution? And you're like, I don't know. I'm still figuring that out. You know what I mean? Like, I'm still figuring out so many things like I even now, like, you know, I like, where are the lines, you know, like, sometimes it's just like, i- if someone's being like a little overly friendly, it's hard sometimes to be like, okay, is it like because they're excited to talk to me or is it because they're like, they don't understand social cues or like, you know, what is it or like, is this worth being like, yo, chill.

• 45:51Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. And I think I had a situation that happened to me this past year and I feel like odd because my show, you would expect me to immediately like run and sit in front of the camera and talk about it for all of the young people listening to me. I'm still trying to figure out like how to talk about that situation because it is a work situation. And I'm like, I may see this person again and it's a situation where it's like, wow, like, I don't think anyone would expect me to not say something and I didn't say something in that moment and I was so uncomfortable and it's like, I think the point is two people in seemingly positions of power are sitting here acknowledging today

• 46:33Alex Cooper?

  to young people that experienced this, like, there is no answer, but I do think through a show like this and through your music, like by us just talking about it, writing about it, singing about it, it just starts to like normalize more of the conversation. So people don't feel so ashamed to talk to even a fucking friend. You don't have to report something immediately. Like it doesn't have to go to the highest level, just like acknowledging it. I feel like is the first step to making some progress.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It's an ongoing conversation. Also, people don't like it when rules change. That's like the other thing is like, people also don't like it when you have like nuanced rules. You know, like, for example, like I'm topless on my album cover for my fourth record and it's like my nipple was in Target, like it's everywhere. But like, People sometimes will just like walk into my dressing room and I'll be like, yo, the door. And it's like the expectation is like, what are you showing everyone your tits? And I'm like, okay, well, I'm revoking that right in this moment. Like, I'm allowed to decide, I don't want you to see me naked right now, just because you've seen me naked before. Like, I'm allowed to change my mind, or like, someone's like, oh, like, you know, I saw you in this one interview with like this person and you were like so touchy feely and like so comfortable.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  It's like, why are you being so standoffish to me? And I'm like, I have a, like, you don't know my relationship with that person separate of that interview. Or like, you don't know this, or like, you know, I'm, I reserve the right to change what I'm comfortable with. But people don't like that, because then they go, oh, she's so wishy washy. They're always changing their mind. Like, pick one. I'm allowed to change my mind.

• 48:04Alex Cooper?

  Not only are you allowed to change your mind, like, there are different boundaries per situations you're in in life of like, you may have been having a really rough morning. And so like, yeah, I'm not in the mood for this. And like, no matter what the fuck you're in the mood for, that's okay. And people that make you feel uncomfortable, or like you're being unreasonable, that is a red fucking flag. Like, if something's, if someone is constantly coming at you and making you feel like you're over dramatic, or you're being high maintenance and you're, pause.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Or like you took away the blanket consent that I thought you gave to all of us. And like, I wanted that too. And like, the reason they're reacting that way is because what they believe you've given them is, you know, with this like hypothetical blanket consent, is like, they see an opportunity that they want to leverage that for their own personal gain or their own whatever. And when you take it away, they're offended. It's like, you've taken something from me and it's access to you.

• 48:58Alex Cooper?

  They feel like ownership over you in a way, like that example of your nipple being in Target. You made a decision the day of your photo shoot to do something creative and artistic that you were comfortable with that day. That does not mean that everyone in the fucking world, when you're walking down the street, you can be like,

• 49:18Alex Cooper?

  nipple free for everyone to see. Like, it's wild that they, like, people feel entitled. The entitlement to our bodies and moments. If you, it's crazy.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Alex Cooper?

  I want to talk about romantic relationships.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:30Alex Cooper?

  Because we kind of started about your childhood and I feel like, again, what we've been kind of talking about is like, they're all fucking connected. Did you tend to fall in love easily when you were younger?

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Not when I was younger, actually. When I was younger, like when I was a young adult, definitely. When I was a teenager, not so much. I wasn't like a super trusting, you know what I mean?

• 49:55Speaker 01

  When I was, I think honestly, once I became famous, I think I fell in love faster. Cause I was so desperate for like stability and like partnership and like I just wanted to be seen and I wanted like a constant. So, you know, I think that I, a lot of the time, would

• 50:16Speaker 01

  sort of project that on to people. Like ignored a lot of red flags, like that kind of thing. And like, not even like, some of them super like insidious red flags. But some of them just like more harmless ones of like, we're just not really compatible in that way. You know what I mean?

• 50:30Alex Cooper?

  You have talked about um, a relationship you had when you were seventeen. The guy was twenty-four.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:36Alex Cooper?

  And he was a pretty big drug addict and was into drugs.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:40Alex Cooper?

  What drew you to that person initially?

• 50:44Speaker 01

  I'm a fixer. I am a fixer. I'm like, I can fix you, I can fix you. Like, you know, I um, it's funny, I felt like becoming a mom was so natural to me. I struggle with it in the same way that every mom does. But at the end of the day, I think I had so much blanket patience because of how much time I spent trying to like fix and mother people up until that point where like, my, my like patience for someone not growing the way you want them to or as fast as you want them to or like whatever was like already so established.

• 51:24Alex Cooper?

  You're like, I've been a mother way before my child. I've been mothering these men for a long time, Alex. No, that makes sense. And I think it's again, like, interesting to hear you talk about a dynamic that can be like someone struggling so much with an addiction. Like, I had a relationship with someone that struggled a lot with addiction. And I was very young and he was older than me.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:46Alex Cooper?

  And I remember the Power and balance was like so ever-present and I would feel so insecure and I would want to like, I think when you're the person that's not in the position of power, you find yourself like doing things to try to like even the playing field and really it's like kind of you appeasing them and doing what they want you to do. So you feel closer to them.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 52:11Alex Cooper?

  Did you experience that with this relationship?

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I dated a lot of addicts. Like that was a kind of a reoccurring theme for me until I was just like, okay, no. You know, and like, I think that, you know, part of the part of the problem, I think, when you're romantically involved with someone who is in active addiction is that there's no logic, right? So you try to reason with them and you try to go like, okay, well, can't you see that if you do this, then it hurts me and then I feel this way or like, you did that, I watched you do it. And it's like, they live in a completely different reality that they've constructed to, you know, as a, as a survival mechanism to not think about the fact that they're in active addiction.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? So it's like, you're arguing with someone or you're reasoning with someone based on reality. And like, that's not their reality. So there, there's no, you can't, you can't like reason with someone who's not living in a world of reason. And then it turns into like this cognitive dissonance, like thought spiral, where you start to feel like you're crazy.

• 53:19Alex Cooper?

  You start to go insane because there's no growth. It feels like growth when they're, right? They're not on drugs. So then you're getting closer and you feel like, oh, we're so back. And then it happens again. And then you're like, wait, no. But then the progress that feels like progress, it's just, you're just getting a little bit back to like n- normal. But it's like, it's a really, really difficult spiral that I like empathize with anyone going through it right now. That's listening of like, you're not crazy. And I do agree that a lot of people in those positions want to fix things. You can't fix someone that's going through that. And I think a lot of times we feel like we can.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:56Alex Cooper?

  You can't. And I, I know it's easier said than done, but like, once you get out of those moments, you obviously have clarity. But when you're in it, like I just have empathy for like friends going through it or people listening, like it's fucking hard. And again, there is no solution that we're providing today. I think it's just like talking about the real shit that you go through.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  I needed someone to tell me at that time, like, you're not a bad person if you leave someone who's like, hurting you, you know what I mean? Cause like I was always kind of like making excuses for those things and being like, oh, but what kind of person am I if I leave someone who's like in this great of need? And I really needed someone to be like, baby, that is not your responsibility. You know what I mean? Especially because I was just so young. And also, I had to unlearn this thing that I was going through at that time where I was like, I've spent so long in just like misery, wanting to fix this person.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  What if they get better one day and then someone else gets to have the better version of them that I worked so hard to build? And you're, and it's like, that is what kept me in it was being like, well, no, one day like they're gonna get better and then someone else is gonna get to have the version of them that I always dreamed would existed. And all I got was just like the suffering. And then what am I? I'm just like the lesson. I'm the martyr. I'm the catalyst. I, I exist in their life just so that they could go be better for someone else like, and I was like determined to not have that because it also it felt like losing. I'd also deconstruct that too. That thing of like winning and losing. I was like, no, baby, this is your life. This isn't about winning or losing, you know? I don't know. Sorry.

• 55:32Alex Cooper?

  No, no, no. I'm, I'm more just like speechless because I don't think I've ever heard someone like articulate it so perfectly that I can imagine everyone listening right now is like, maybe like pulling over to the side of the road. Just like have a, have a pause because it's so fucking real of like, most of those relationships, you go to the very possible end to the point that like, you even are at risk of your own life when you go that fucking far down with someone. So to leave feels like, but what was this all for?

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:02Alex Cooper?

  And it's like, it's just gonna keep going.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels like giving up, but it's not. It's like making, you're making like a,

• 56:11Speaker 01

  it's like, it is a hard choice. I think that I started learning like in a way you really do become someone when you're spending that amount of time with them and you're like connecting with them on an energetic level that much where now like, if I look at my partner and I wouldn't want to be them.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  If I wouldn't want to be just like them, then like I probably shouldn't be with them. Like you should kind of really only be spending that amount of time and putting that much love and connection and vulnerability into a person if like, you know, if you would be okay becoming them as a result.

• 56:45Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  You know?

• 56:47Alex Cooper?

  You're preaching right now. I'm like, keep going. You're giving us a TED Talk.

• 57:03Alex Cooper?

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• 57:48Alex Cooper?

  SoFi, get your money right. This is a paid advertisement by SoFi Technologies and is not intended to be financial advice. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ritual. We are learning so much about how the gut microbiome is key to our mental health, immunity, and of course digestion. And I just feel like I didn't know any of this until recently, which is a problem because this is literally everything that we do need to know to take care of ourselves. But did you know, because now I know, the gut microbiome shifts during pregnancy, ladies? And these shifts can impact mom and baby's health in pregnancy and postpartum. And that is why Ritual created Nadel Biotic, a specialized biotic with clinically studied strains

• 58:32Alex Cooper?

  for pregnancy and postpartum microbiome support to support. Digestive health, mood, vaginal health, and baby's immune health. I have been trying so hard to take care of myself during this pregnancy. And I think something that has been very helpful is actually learning about the things that now I will carry, not only just during this pregnancy, but I will continue to take care of myself in a way that I really never have before. I think sometimes as women, we don't have the tools or we don't know what we're supposed to be doing. And so we sometimes just freeze and we don't do anything. And since having Ritual in my life, it has been so nice to have this daily ritual where I'm actually taking care of myself and my baby, which feels great. So whether you're pregnant, postpartum, or looking for everyday trusted daily gut support,

• 59:16Alex Cooper?

  get clinically studied biotics to support your gut health with Ritual. My listeners can save 25% off their first month at ritual.com/callherdaddy. That's ritual.com/callherdaddy for 25% off your first month. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. In one of your poems, you wrote, "I won't love a man unless he is angry because of my father."

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:46Alex Cooper?

  How did normalizing anger in these relationships that you were having, make you more willing to put up with the things that they were doing?

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Hmm, I think that I, well, first of all, I had to change the way that I talk to myself. You know what I mean? Like, I had a therapist once who was like, um,

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  was like, I was, I was talking to them about a partner and I was like, they just like, constantly tell me or make me feel like I'm not special or like, you know, I'm like, I'm embarrassing or like I'm weak or I'm like, I don't know, just like all these things. And the person was like, okay, well, can I ask you a question? Like, do you think you're special? And I was like, no. was like I'm no I don't like what like I'm better than everybody else no I don't think that she was someone asked you ask you do you think you're special and I was like no I was like and what do you tell yourself like in those situations like how do you talk to yourself and I was like well I just try to remind myself like you know like

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  you have to be humble and like you're not better than everybody else and like you're not special and like you know and she was like okay she was like so if that's how you talk to yourself then when someone else talks to you the same way you're not going to notice that that's out of the norm you know what I mean like that's if you're if you're if you're communicating with yourself in that way like if you believe those things you know I was like yeah but it's one thing for me to humble myself but I want my partner to build me up and they were like no you have to build yourself up it's not you can't depend on another person to do that which was a really interesting conversation because I feel like sometimes we go into therapy so often when we're struggling with relationships and we're like what's wrong with all these people

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  and then there comes the part where you have to take responsibility you know like one of the things I've started I had to take responsibility for to end up in a healthy relationship was sort of this like toxic empathy and like this um this sort of like toxic um

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  not like people pleasing but I was like I was realizing that if I don't set clear boundaries for myself and people repeatedly cross those boundaries it's my fault because I'm not giving them I'm not communicating with them or giving them a chance to learn that that's a boundary and then also it's building up building up building up building up and then I'm blowing up out of resentment but they're confused because I never told them that that boundary was being crossed and so you know that was a moment of where I was like oh god like I have I have to also take responsibility you know or like because I went through a phase I think where I was really like I don't even like I don't even ask my partner for anything like I take care of all my own stuff I don't bring myself into the relationship like I'm not asking them to like

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  support me or emotionally whatever like I literally just like I take care of all my own shit and I take care of them and like still they can't even like be there for me in the five percent I'm actually asking them to and she was like you're not showing up honestly She was like, you're not being yourself. She was like, you think that they're being like dishonest or they're being disingenuous, like bitch, so are you. And just because you think it's in a nice way, doesn't mean that it's okay. Like you're not like this like self sacrificing act or whatever is actually you showing up and lying to them. And that shook me because when she first said it, I was like, well, no, I'm, I didn't do anything wrong. I was like, why are you telling me I did something wrong? And then I had to look at that and I had to be like, damn. Okay, you're right. You're right. If I'm showing up dishonestly, even if it's well intending.

• 1:03:22Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  I'm just as bad as them.

• 1:03:24Alex Cooper?

  You have a great therapist.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:03:27Alex Cooper?

  Who is this therapist? We all meet this person. No, it's so fucking true. Like not communicating something to your partner that you're like, something is like festering inside of you and you're watching it all the time, being so upset and they have no fucking idea. You're upset about it. It's like, how would they know you're upset if you don't tell them you're upset? In one of your new songs, Panic Attack, I was listening to it and I was like, this is the most relatable thing I've ever fucking heard. And so many people, when they hear the song, are gonna be like, yes, thank you, Aldi. I am, I have, I have too been there.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Alex Cooper?

  You talk about struggling essentially to differentiate, like, am I having this, like, these panic attack feelings or am I falling in love? And like, what is the fucking difference?

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Alex Cooper?

  Can you talk about from your experience, like, how those two are kind of similar in the beginning phase of a relationship?

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think like, you know, if you're like anxiously attached, like you kind of get those feelings of like nervousness, like, and it's really easy to misinterpret those. I said this a long time ago. I have like a song from like a couple of years ago from an album, Manic, a song called Graveyard, where like in the bridge, I say, it's funny how the warning signs can feel like butterflies, you know? And so like, I've kind of touched on this before. Panic Attack is like a more expanded version of it, which is like, you know, there is that moment kind of of like, you know, your heart's fricking beating out of its chest when their name pops up on your phone. What's that about? Is it because you're now entering this like dopamine cycle of like, you know, you actually aren't sure? Like if you're not sure they're gonna answer you and then it excites you and they do.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  I don't think that's love. I don't think so. You shouldn't be putting that level of energy into a person if you're not sure that they're gonna have the decency to respond to your message.

• 1:05:12Alex Cooper?

  It's so confusing and I love that you brought up graveyard because I was like gonna reference that and I'm like, no, but we have like a new and improved version.

• 1:05:22Alex Cooper?

  And I feel like those butterfly warning signs are so easily misconstrued in the beginning phase and I empathize a lot because it's hard until you start to just have your life experiences and go through multiple relationships and it's that again, us not giving you guys the answer, but knowing like the more you experience, the easier it is to kind of be like, oh, no, no, no. I've felt that way before and I know how this goes down. Like I need to pump the brakes, but the beginning of relationships can be very hard to discern. Is this excitement or is this because this person is essentially like love bombing me or whatever the fuck is going on or is it like slightly

• 1:06:02Alex Cooper?

  mentally abusive, but I'm seeing it as like, he finally is giving me attention. Oh, my god.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Validation. Also toxic, like toxicity in relationships is addictive. It is. It's absolutely addictive. It's just like a cycle of like noradrenaline, like that's like an adrenaline chemical, you know what I mean? And like dopamine and like you start to build patterns and like neural pathways to the ups and downs of feeling that like rejection, validation, rejection, validation, rejection, validation. And I remember when I kind of like uh, when I had had like some distance from like my most toxic relationship and I was in relationships that were like a little bit more content. I do remember at times being kind of like and I don't want to say this is any kind of like diss to the people who

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  might hear themselves in this conversation because you know, this, this isn't, this isn't a diss, but I did find myself kind of bored. And like not bored with them, but bored with the lack of intensity and the lack of the up and down and kind of just like wondering if.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Because I had experienced such highs and lows in a toxic relationship, if every other form of love was gonna feel like, less than satisfactory to me.

• 1:07:24Alex Cooper?

  So real?

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:27Alex Cooper?

  Like, that's so fucking real?

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  It's not true, because I'm very much in love now, and I'm getting all, yeah, I'm in all the-

• 1:07:33Alex Cooper?

  I see that ring, girl.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  I, I, I, I will say to anyone listening, that's not true, but I do think there's a period of time where like, safety comes, where you just kind of feel like, it just doesn't hit the same. And like, you can't go back. I de- I definitely was like, oh, I wonder if I'm just gonna be, like, what is it for me? Is it contentment? Is it settling? Is it settling for safety? Do I get to have that same intensity without all of the danger? You know?

• 1:08:05Alex Cooper?

  And I feel like something I had to learn along the way, and ev- it's everyone has to like, take their time with it, is like, you're right, the toxicity is addicting, but there's such a difference between like, safe and boring, or just not the same thing. And it can take you a really long time, but understandably, if you're on this fucking roller coaster ride, and then you're slowly just like, sitting in the little, the like, the game that you're just like, riding around and it's slow, you're like, this isn't fucking fun. I wanna be screaming my head off, and I wanna have my hair all over the place.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  It's like, what if we told you that like, ten people died on that ride, like, last week, and you're like, well, it was fun, though, like, you know what I mean?

• 1:08:40Alex Cooper?

  And you keep going back, and it's like, why do we do this to ourselves? Cause I was gonna ask you about, like, you have written about these like, volatile relationships that you've been in, and like, when you do get out of them, I guess you just answered it of like, what do you learn about yourself then when you get into new relationships that aren't as volatile? And it's like, I guess your answer was like, kind of learning to be okay with peace a little bit more?

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Yes and no.

• 1:09:03Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  Because then what happened was, is I was like, okay, I guess this is it, I guess I'm just settling for contentment. And then I realized that that wasn't true either. That was me putting safety before my happiness. You know what I mean?

• 1:09:17Alex Cooper?

  Cause I was gonna say, like, if you have any advice to- Maybe someone that's watching this right now, but is like fully in that cycle of whether it's with an abusive partner or a toxic partner and they just can't get out of it. And they're like, but I'll never find something that makes me feel this.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  You will. You have to heal first. When you get out, it's not going to feel that way right away because you need to heal. And then like that new healed version of you is gonna like, you know, I don't know. It's kind of like when you get a wound. And then, you know, the wound hurts and it hurts and it hurts, but at least you're feeling something. And then it scars and the scar is numb. And you're like, I don't have no feeling here, but then eventually new skin grows and you get to feel again, but it's not, it doesn't hurt. You know what I mean?

• 1:09:58Alex Cooper?

  No, it's so, it's so hard to tell people when they're in it. We're like, I'm promising you. You're, if you leave and you get out of it and you heal, it's going to get better.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Alex Cooper?

  I want to ask you, like as an artist, because I feel like a lot of people have these moments. Where they collaborate with someone they were in a relationship with, and you've done that in the past.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:17Alex Cooper?

  And you have this like very famous song with someone that you have like talked about, like not having a good relationship with. Can you describe the feeling of like having a piece of art tied to a very like hurtful and not like positive experience?

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  I think the one thing I've been really smart about is they're never my songs. I'm always on their songs. And I'm like, that's your problem, not mine. I get to do my whole catalog and I don't have to deal with you. So like, sorry that some of your biggest songs have me on them. I don't know what to tell you. Um, but I tend to be sort of the gatekeepy about my art for that same reason where I'm like, yeah, I'll get on your thing, but like, not mine, you know, like this needs to, this, I need to preserve this for, for myself. You know, I think whether I'm on a record with someone and our, and like, you know, the relationship changes or not, or I just wrote a song about them. Like songs just carry so much cellular energy.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  But the good thing about them is that they do evolve. You know what I mean? Like I've gotten on stage and sang the same song like over, like I've, I've been singing without me for fucking years, you know? And every time I sing it, it feels different. It feels like it's about a different thing. And like, you know, I have so many songs that are about so many different times in my life or like experiences and like, I don't know. I think that, I think that.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  I'll I'll never shy away from being honest, you know? It's like, and if you have to deal with the consequences of that later, then so be it, but like, I would rather regret. I'd rather regret being honest and being reflective of where I was in my life at that time than regret not saying something or doing something that I wish that I had. I don't know. I just.

• 1:12:07Alex Cooper?

  It's a great fucking answer.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  No features on this album, though. Just me. Nobody else getting in the way of my narrative.

• 1:12:13Alex Cooper?

  Period. Um, there is a ring on your finger. We've gone through childhood. We've gone through your previous relationships and going through the mud to get to. Congratulations. You're engaged. Yes. I am like.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  You're fucking married.

• 1:12:28Alex Cooper?

  I know.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 1:12:30Alex Cooper?

  It's insane.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  I had to get all the tea from you.

• 1:12:32Alex Cooper?

  No, I have to tell you everything. It's insane and it still feels weird to say like, I have a husband, like what is happening? You're a fiance.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:12:41Alex Cooper?

  This is exciting. Um, how did the proposal happen? Can you tell me?

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  It was really sweet, yeah. So he proposed in Barcelona. Um, it's kind of like where we first started hanging out. So it's like really special to us because we had this like, kind of, this like, these few days where we were like, we were hanging out a bunch and it was very like not, you know, I wasn't sure that I was ready. And so it was kind of like, you know, but I was also kind of like, you're literally the like most amazing, like smartest, hottest, nicest person I've ever met in my life. So also like, please don't go anywhere. I'm gonna, I'm trying to figure it out. Like, you know what I mean?

• 1:13:25Alex Cooper?

  Stay here and just give me a little time.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and uh, you know, so he, yeah, he proposed in Barcelona. It was really sweet and, um.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Immediately afterwards left to go shoot a show for like six months in Canada. I was like, okay, bye.

• 1:13:41Alex Cooper?

  Stop.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we, we haven't really had like the chance to be like engaged.

• 1:13:47Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Um, but he's coming home and you know, just the time for me to go start like all the album promo or whatever. And um, you know, I think we're gonna get to have like our, our time then, but I never wanted to be married.

• 1:14:02Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  Never.

• 1:14:03Alex Cooper?

  Never. What changed?

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Avon. Yeah. I don't know. I never thought that I would ever want to be married and then like, I, I just knew I wanted to marry him and I couldn't explain why, because I would deconstruct marriage like from such a logical perspective beforehand. Like I was so like practical, survival, like, you know, uh, like fiscal, like about it. Like, you know, the way that I was, I always broke down marriage and like, I couldn't really understand the point of marrying just from like an emotional point of view. It was like, well, if you love each other, then just be together. Why do I have to get married?

• 1:14:36Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  I didn't understand it. And then, I don't know, it was just something with him where I just knew I wanted to marry him. And like, I can't even explain why, you know what I mean? Cause I do, I love him in such a way that I feel like we would be just as fine if we didn't. But something about that makes me want to do it more.

• 1:14:55Alex Cooper?

  I relate a lot to what you're saying, because I was very vocal, like even when I met Matt, I was like, I don't want to get married. I never want to get married. Like, I thought it would threaten my independence. I was, I, I felt the same way. Like, why do we need a piece of paper? And then I just like knew he was the person if I was gonna do it. And I think that's so beautiful that it was just like something within you is like, I know this is right.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  I just knew.

• 1:15:18Alex Cooper?

  And that's like, I mean, how did you guys meet?

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  We met kind of just like floating around. He was like floating around Europe and so was I. We were both doing like, some like fashion week stuff and some like, I was playing some festivals and like, you know, we, I'd, we'd been like aware of each other, like we followed each other on Instagram, you know what I mean? But it was like,

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  And we neither of us can really remember if we had like met in passing before that. I think I would remember, so I don't think we have.

• 1:15:46Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? But um, I always I had like always had like a weird feeling about him, you know?

• 1:15:52Alex Cooper?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  And then, you know, I I I got pregnant and I was, you know, with my son's father and then like I didn't have any feelings about anyone. Cause I was like super committed to like making my family work and like, you know, this new life is like a mom with like my son and so like. Um, I wasn't really thinking about any of that kind of stuff. And then I became a single mom and I was like, I am never dating anyone ever again. And it's gonna be, I had so much to figure out. I was like, it's just me and my son and like, you know, and I was also really sick. It was really sick in like a life changing way.

• 1:16:26Alex Cooper?

  Yup.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  I was like not thinking about dating at all. Yeah. And so then we met, we like met up for a drink one night. And I just remember walking into this bar, this like hotel bar and he was like sitting in this like little beer garden at the hotel. And I walked in, I saw him and the only way can you explain it was is like.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  You know, like a vampire movie when the vampire like glamors you?

• 1:16:51Alex Cooper?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  Like they do that thing and that makes you like, yes.

• 1:16:54Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Whatever. Like it felt like that was happening to me. Like I walked in all like, I walked in and I was like, hey, and he was like, hi. And I was like, hi.

• 1:17:02Alex Cooper?

  Hi.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:17:03Alex Cooper?

  He Edward Cullen'd you.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  No, he straight up like mind tricked me like, and he wasn't doing it on purpose. He just is very charming. You know what I mean?

• 1:17:11Alex Cooper?

  I love you.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was just like, whoa, there was just like this, like this warmth and this like light just like emanating off of him. It was so compelling. It was so alluring. I just like sitting at the table, just wanted to lean over the table, sit closer to him. Like I was so just like.

• 1:17:29Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Drawn to him. Like, I don't know how to explain it. It was so, it was different than like when you meet someone and you're like, I could see this working. And I'm like planning in my head and I'm like doing the calculation of like how this would work out and like, okay, you're like that. And I'm like this and this would be good. It was just like, I was like, whoa. I was head empty. I was not head full of, I'm gonna get him math. I was head empty. I was just like, hi.

• 1:17:54Alex Cooper?

  Oh, he was crazy. Yeah.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:17:56Alex Cooper?

  We're all just like swooning in here like, whoa, keep going. No, that is like, that's when you know there's something special.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:02Alex Cooper?

  What if you had to say, what do you love the most about him?

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  That's hard. I mean, he's so like freakishly like adjusted isn't the right word, but like there's nothing I could ever bring up that would freak him out. There's like no conversation. We can't have like in like a like he's so solution oriented like everything between the two of us is always like

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  it's always with the the goal of solution and bettering and like, you know, we're never like locked into like who's gonna win this or who's gonna whatever. Also, he's just like

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  I remember when I first when I first started seeing him, I was like, what's it gonna be? I was like, you are like super successful. You've been in this business for a really long time. You're smoking hot and everyone on the planet knows it. I was like, what's wrong with you?

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  And he was so nice and he was so family oriented and like I was like, oh, you're about to be the biggest psychopath of them all. You're about to be the final boss. Like you can't be like this. Like I was like, there's gonna be what like whatever's wrong with you is gonna be like FBI is most wanted. Like you're gonna be secretly like have bodies in your basement. Like something you have to have the worst thing ever wrong with you. And then it was like, I was kind of like unsure for like a while like and then like, you know, as time went on, well, first I met his parents and they're fucking lovely. And so that's where I was kind of like, oh, maybe this is real. Maybe he is just that great because he's great parents who like raised him really well. And then, you know, he

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  he has got a he has a relationship with my son now, you know, and just like watching the way that he shows up for my son in like such a authentic way. I was like, okay, you really are just like the best person. And then came the panic of me being like, well, I don't deserve someone that great. And so I had to kind of like it was short-lived, but I had that little process of like, whoa, my God, if he really is that great, then like, what the hell is he doing with me? You know, and I and then I had to kind of like I had to start seeing myself.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  I had to value myself more, you know what I mean? Where I had to be like, well, I'm also really ambitious and I'm a really good mom. And like I create like a really welcoming and like safe environment. I'm really patient. I'm really um communicative and I'm rational and I am, you know, supportive and proactive and like I had to start seeing myself like in that way.

• 1:20:44Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  To have peace and to not enter like a cycle of insecurity, you know?

• 1:20:50Alex Cooper?

  Dude, that must have been so refreshing because I think when you are met by a healthy good partner, who uh we all have our own shit, but like someone that's genuinely trying to be like, no, I really want to make this work and I don't want to fuck you up and I don't want to be fucked up and I want to do this together like you just start to raise your standard for yourself of like how you are gonna show up.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Alex Cooper?

  And like you said, it's so beautiful, like with your child knowing how you care for a whole ass human being

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:20Alex Cooper?

  and how you show up for your child to see a partner like come into your life and be able to not only like embrace you guys, but also add value to the dynamic like that's so fucking refreshing and probably nice for you.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it also forced me to do everything like really, really in the right way. You know what I mean?

• 1:21:38Alex Cooper?

  Amazing.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Becoming a single mom was like a real grown up wake up call for me. That was like a moment where I was like, I can't just like like, you know, skirt past this. Like, you know, this has changed the entire dynamic of my life. Like, it's changed everything about like my own feelings of hurt and wanting to act on those versus like what's right for my child and like, you know, I had to

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  I had to like I had already like speed run grown up when I became a mom, but then I had to like secondary like speed run grow up where like I grew out of that not wanting to be inconvenient or not wanting to be a problem or not wanting to be clingy or not wanting to be extra. Like I had to grow out of that to date again as a single mom where it's like I wasn't in a situation where like you know, I'm if you're like, I couldn't be in a situation where I'm like texting a guy or like a girl or talking to whoever and I'm like, hey, so like, do you want to make plans for next week? And they're like, oh, I'm not really like big into plans. We go see you when I see you. Like, I couldn't be like, okay, like I had to be like, I'm a mom. I have a schedule. Do you want to see me or not? And if you don't, then like, bye. You know what I mean? And so it was like

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  I it just like it forced me out of being able to like accidentally like people please I guess so like make myself smaller because I was like I can't so like what's up?

• 1:23:02Alex Cooper?

  No, that is like so beautiful to hear and I'm so happy for you in like everything you've shared today. I feel like that has like beautifully led you to where you're at now where like you're engaged, you are a mother, like you are so successful. You have this new album coming out, which we have to talk about like like I said, I was listening to it. I'm like, there is a lot in this album and it's called The Great Impersonator. What is the meaning behind the title?

• 1:23:40Alex Cooper?

  This is a paid ad by BetterHelp. I always think it is so important to find time to take care of myself because I think self-care for me a lot of times is getting some alone time, even if it's just go on a 10-minute walk outside. Self-care can obviously look different at different stages of life and the ways that we practice it often evolve over time. But one possible way to take care of yourself is through therapy. Therapy with BetterHelp, one of the leading online therapy platforms, can be a space to prioritize your mental health, reflect on where you are and check in with yourself. With over 30,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp has served millions of people globally. BetterHelp makes it easier to fit therapy into your routine with flexible ways to connect that work for different schedules and lifestyles.

• 1:24:25Alex Cooper?

  Plus, BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1,000 hours of hands-on experience and they hold required education, training and certifications. You can meet with a range of professionals from marriage and family therapists to social workers, counselors, you name it, they have it. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/daddy. That's better H E L P dot com slash daddy. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Stoffers. Let me tell you something. When I am hungry and I am trying to figure out what to eat, sometimes you can just actually become so, you're angry. You're like, I am busy, I'm hungry,

• 1:25:05Alex Cooper?

  I'm getting hangry, I'm getting angry. What can I eat? I need something hot and delicious and low maintenance. Well, introducing Stouffer's dinners are not only delicious, they're done in a flash. Serve up their classic lasagna, chicken pesto, or carbonara for two. Whatever you're craving, Stouffer's is your hot, delicious, easy meal fantasy. When the clock strikes dinner, think Stouffer's. You can see all the delicious options at Stouffer's.com. What is the meaning behind the title?

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  I think it's, you know, it's sort of, it's like a double entendre.

• 1:25:40Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  You know, like on the one hand, I think it kind of touches on some of what we've talked about this time was me figuring out that Halsey's kind of serving is more of an alter ego than like just a stage name.

• 1:25:48Alex Cooper?

  Yep.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  And like kind of admitting that and like coming forward and being like, I've built a career off of being really honest and authentic. And maybe I haven't been as honest and authentic as I thought the past couple of years. Maybe I have more to say. And what forced me into that was obviously getting so sick that I thought I was gonna die. You know, like when you think you're gonna die, you have an existential crisis that is just like indescribable to your former self. Like, you kind of have to like live through it to understand it. And like, I just started looking at myself and being like, okay, if you do die, is this, you're happy with this? This is how everyone's gonna remember you? It's like the last thing you did, last thing you said, like, have, you know, we tell ourselves a lot of time we have more

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  time and like, we do, but like, nothing is promised to us. So, there's times where I was like, like example, like the song about my dad, I told you, I was like, I was like, I'll do it on the next album. I'll do it on the next album. Because I was too scared. And with this one, I was like, might not be a next album, bitch. Put it out. Speak your truths. There might not be a next album. You know, and so it kind of like forced me into the situation where I was like, I have to just act and do and be as truthful as I possibly can. But I started thinking about fate a lot. I started thinking like, okay, does everything happen for a reason, right? Like, I'm born in nineteen ninety-four. Does that, is that how I end up Halsey? Is because like, I'm born at the right time, at the right moment, like, if I'm born ten years earlier, five years later, do I end up famous?

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Do I end up an art teacher? Do I end up like, in jail? Like, what am I, you know? And then, so I was like, what if I debuted in the seventies? Like, what if I debuted in the eighties, the nineties? Like, I started exploring all these different, like, versions of me, making music in like, different decades. So, in a sense, I'm kind of like impersonating other, you know, stars of, of that time and kind of doing an exploration or like a thought experiment on that. Cause it's like, the big thing that kept coming up when I got sick was a lot of people, like, in the medical field, were pretty adamant with me, like, you're sick because of your job.

• 1:27:56Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Some said it just directly and some, you know, and not so many words, just kind of like, well, like, stress and like, lack of sleep and traveling and jet lag, poor nutrition, putting strain on your body, like, these things can trigger autoimmune diseases and the particular autoimmune disease I have, lupus, can trigger, um, you know, it can trigger leukemia, lymphoma, like, a lot of, a lot of, like, blood cancers and like, lymph cancers are more, more common in people who have chronic, you know, autoimmune conditions. And so they all kind of just trickle down to this, like, you're stressed out all the time, kind of thing. So that led me to be like, you know, becoming Halsey was like the craziest thing that's ever happened to me in my life, but like, is this a consequence of that?

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  You know, and like, does it go this way? No matter what, if I become Halseys, is how my life goes. Am I a single mom? Am I sick? Am I like, is there any way to like, beat that? Fate or beat that destiny?

• 1:28:54Alex Cooper?

  Can I ask, like, how are you feeling today?

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Pretty good. Yeah, I like, I came back from. I came back from New York. I was there for the VMAs and I noticed I was kinda starting to have a flare, like a lupus flare. Okay. Um, and I haven't had one in a little while, cause you know, my disease has been like, you know, in remission. Yep. And I was kinda like

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  thinking about it. I was thinking about how like a lot of my fans or a lot of my audience that's also dealing with chronic illness. They say to me all the time, like, I don't know how you do that. Like, you must be so much stronger than me. Like, I can really get out of bed or I can really go to school. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't want you thinking that

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  I'm stronger than you, or like you can't accomplish as much as me. Like, I went and did the VMAs. I worked really hard that whole week and then I had a flare as a consequence of that. That's reality. That's the risk. And you guys, like the fans, like you're the reward. Yeah. And I have to kind of like balance that every time I do something. It's just like knowing that that's a possibility. And kind of adapting to that new normal. And like, so what happens then is like, I have to rest. Or I have to go get treatment. Or I have to like, you know, I have to change certain things, but it's by no means because like I'm built differently than anyone else. Right. Like, I'm also in a significant position of privilege compared to most people who are dealing with chronic illness, you know, in terms of like, you know, the, the treatments I can get, the access that I can get, like, um,

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  and so I'm just using all of those things to kind of, to mitigate what is my new normal. I definitely had a situation like a couple, a couple like weeks ago. Um, and that's why I'm kind of like chuckling to myself about this flare because I did the thing where I was like, I'm feeling so good. I don't know if I need treatment anymore. Mm-hmm. And so I was like, I'm gonna stop treatment. Like, I don't wanna put this stuff in my body. Like, I'm gonna be fine. It's like, I was like, bitch, you didn't learn your lesson. You did that with antidepressants. Like, first of all, but then like, you know, I was like, I'm feeling really good. Like, I don't think I need to do it anymore. And like, you know, I'm putting all this, these medicines in my body and like, maybe I can just do it with like diet and like with whatever. And I stopped for like a little bit. I like skipped a treatment.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  Immediate flare. I was like on the flight home and like one of the first signs of a lupus flare is you get this butterfly shaped rash across your cheeks. Yeah. I got up, say, go use the restroom on the plane. I looked in the mirror and I was like, fuck. You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

• 1:31:22Alex Cooper?

  No.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  And I kinda like had to like, I like walk ashamed back to my seat and like sat down and was like, damn. And that was a sad moment for me, cause I was like, I had felt so good, like, you know, it was like on TV and on the carpet. And I was like, I'm doing it again, I'm great and everything's good and like, it made me like, kind of emotional, cause I was kinda like, I'm still sick. That's still reality. Like, this is forever now. And that was hard. You know, I couldn't just be like, well, that was crazy, those two years, ha, ha, ha, I'm moving on. Like, I had to be like, no, this is still, this is forever. I'm still like, coming to terms with that, like, little by little.

• 1:31:56Alex Cooper?

  I can only imagine how hard that is and like, I, I think in different capacities, everyone can find a way to relate to that feeling of like, oh, no, no, no, I don't need this anymore, I'm gonna be fine. And then it, you go back to not being fine and you're like, this is so emotionally heavy to deal with.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:13Alex Cooper?

  But I do think that it's incredible that you have been open as much as you want to be about that, because I do, again, believe it helps other people realize, like, someone that is as successful as you also is just not living this perfect fairy tale life and everything's fucking fine. Like, everything you're writing about in this album is so fucking real, like, what is the hardest song that like, you wrote, like, to write?

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  The Life of the Spider.

• 1:32:37Alex Cooper?

  Really?

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was like, the hardest. It's like, just like me and a piano, kinda sounds like a voice note, like, a little bit. And every time I hear it, I cry. Just like hearing my voice, like, in that state. And I wrote that song about being sick and about just like, feeling like such a burden.

• 1:32:57Alex Cooper?

  Hmm.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  And also just feeling disgusting. I felt so gross and so terrible about myself when I was sick. It's like, you know, I was like, I was really gaunt and like, my face changed. And my face had just, my face and body had just changed, cause I just had a baby. You know, I was pregnant and like, I went through all those changes and then it changed again like this, when I got sick so fast, you know? And, um, I was like vomiting, but then like, you know, I was like, brushing my teeth made me scared, cause I was scared it was gonna induce more vomiting. And like, I was,

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  I was, I was just so sick and so gross.

• 1:33:40Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  And like, I felt revolting. Like, I didn't feel good about myself at all. And like, you know, I, I felt.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  I felt, you know, kinda trapped in like this cycle of feeling resentment from people close to me, you know, um. Some real, some imagined, you know, think both.

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  And just kind of this feeling of like

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  everyone had depended on me for so long.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  And I I kinda like, it was a hell of my own design, cuz I told everybody for so long, like, I don't need help, I can take care of myself. And then I needed help and everybody was like, what do you mean? Like, you conditioned us to believe that you take care of yourselves and now you're getting mad at us cuz we're not helping, but we don't know how to cuz you've never let us before. You know, and so that was really, really hard, um, but also just kind of feeling like, god, what a, how dare I inconvenience you so much by

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  by being dying.

• 1:34:51Alex Cooper?

  I was gonna say, like, like, but again, going back to everything you've shared today, like, you're used to being the one that's taking care of and fixing everyone. So like, to ask for help must feel just so unnatural to you. But like, you need help from people, you need support, you need people to be there for you. But it's hard to ask when you're someone that is not used to asking.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  A big thing for me was like, a lot of my relationships, I felt like because I'm traveling all the time and because I'm gone and because I am really like insulated and self-sufficient in that way, where it's like, you know. I feel like when you're in the public eye or like you are, like, you know, you're financially like secure in the way that like you are in the business. It changes your friendships, right? It's like, I'm moving, right? I don't have to ask my friends to come help me move because I'm just gonna move, like, at the moving company and do the thing. Or like, I need someone to pick me up from a surgery or like, take me to the dentist or like, you know. Whatever, and it's like, I'll get a driver, it's like, you lose that kind of like village, community, we look out for each other kinda thing, but then on the flip side, I'm always taking care.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  of stuff for other people. You know what I mean? So it changes the dynamics of the relationship. I'm also a spiritual person, so I also believe sometimes that like you will end up in situations where if you're like spirit guide or your guardian angel or whatever it is that you believe knows that you won't make a hard decision for yourself. They'll kind of put you in a position where the other person does it for you, but it's for you. You know what I mean?

• 1:36:21Alex Cooper?

  Yes, like you can feel it when it's happening.

• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Alex Cooper?

  This whole album is incredible. I'm so excited for you. Last two questions, I promise.

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:36:27Alex Cooper?

  Um, one, what are you most excited to perform? What song?

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  Okay, there's two for two different reasons.

• 1:36:34Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  I really can't wait to play Panic Attack because it's just like such a musical song like it's got like the piano, the piano's so warm and the guitar is so great and the drums are so like I just imagine I'm gonna get on stage and feel like I'm a part of like a big band, like a seventies big band, you know what I mean? And like with all the musicians on stage, just like twirling around like it's very Laurel Canyon like, you know, it's got that like Fleetwood Mac vibe. So I can't wait to do that because I just feel like it's gonna be so like classic. Um, but then definitely the only living girl in LA. It's a six minute song, so like I don't know how I'm gonna play it live, but I think there's so many fun moments for the fans to like join in on like ad libs and stuff. But it's gonna feel like we're performing it together. And I love when a song feels like you and the audience are doing it together and not like you're doing it at them, you know?

• 1:37:19Alex Cooper?

  It's so sad and beautiful and listening to it, I was like, Halsey. I wanted to like give you a hug. I was like, this is so fucking sad, but it's so, it's really an incredible song. I mean, every single song is incredible and you're such an incredible writer, but I'm just so happy for you because you are clearly so talented and everything that you have gone through in your career and your personal life to see this new work of art that you've put together is truly incredible and I wouldn't say that if I didn't feel that way, like listening to it in my car, I also chose to listen to it in the car because I was like, I need this in the car.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  Best place to listen.

• 1:37:57Alex Cooper?

  Yup, I was like, and I, I'm so happy I got to meet you because your energy and your spirit and just who you are as a person, like it does change my fandom. Over you even more like I feel like an even bigger fan after getting to speak with you today. Thank you for like taking the time today because it was I think the daddy gang is gonna freak out over this and I know your fans will but thank you for giving me the time.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, of course. Also, you have to teach me how to plan a wedding. I don't know what I'm doing.

• 1:38:24Alex Cooper?

  Trust me.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  I have no idea.

• 1:38:25Alex Cooper?

  I'm really overwhelmed. No, it, trust me, I've got you because I was like, I didn't even know what I would want to wear. I was like the antithesis of a bride when I first started and like I figured it out.

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  Well, I told you I never wanted to be married. So when I'm talking, people are like, when you were a little girl, what did you dream about?

• 1:38:41Alex Cooper?

  Nothing.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  And I was like, I didn't, I have no idea.

• 1:38:44Alex Cooper?

  Right, like being successful.

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  I'm just obsessed with my fiance and I just like fucking like wanna like, I wanna crawl inside his skin and be like a part of him and like, I need a wedding where like I can either do that and it's not weird or like if there's something in place that prevents me from trying to do it, you know?

• 1:39:03Alex Cooper?

  Halsey, I could not relate more to you and I will give you all of the wedding tips that you need. Thank you for coming on Call Her Daddy. It was an honor. Thank you.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:39:27Alex Cooper?

  Thanks to Lieb by Yves Saint Laurent for sponsoring today's episode. Make a statement with Lieb L'Eneu, the fragrance that sets you apart. Shop now at Sephora. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by T-Mobile. Daddy gang, there are honestly so many reasons to just choose T-Mobile. They've got T-Mobile Tuesdays perks, tons of freebies, travel benefits like hotel and rental car savings. They make your phone plan feel like it's actually giving you something back instead of just being another bill that you have to pay every single month. And if you're a student, T-Mobile has student perks plans designed specifically for you. I remember being in college and constantly

• 1:40:10Alex Cooper?

  literally just looking for ways to save money understandably. And so these are the kind of perks I would have absolutely taken advantage of. Students. Can get things like a $5 movie ticket every month, exclusive access to concerts, okay? And even streaming benefits, so you can always have a reality TV binge night with your girls. And when you're already paying for your phone every month, getting all of these extra benefits on top of it, just, it makes sense, right? For all the reasons to choose T-Mobile, find yours at tmobile.com/membership. Qualifying plan required, visit tmobile.com. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Stouffer's. Let me tell you something, when I am hungry and I am trying to figure out what to eat,

• 1:40:55Alex Cooper?

  sometimes you can just actually become so, you're angry. You're like, I am busy, I'm hungry, I'm getting hangry, I'm getting angry. What can I eat? I need something hot and delicious and low maintenance. Well, introducing Stouffer's dinners are not only delicious, they're done in a flash. Serve up their classic lasagna, chicken pesto, or carbonara for two. Whatever you're craving, Stouffer's is your hot, delicious, easy meal fantasy. When the clock strikes dinner, think Stouffer's. You can see all the delicious options at stouffers.com.