Patrice Evra: Learning How To Cry Saved My Life

Patrice Evra is a one of a kind. He has suffered more hardships, and has overcome more challenges to get where he is, than probably any other guest I’ve ever had on the show. And yet, Patrice has managed to overcome them all to lead an incredible life. If Patrice can overcome his background and experiences, you can overcome yours. In this episode, Patrice opens up as never before on his background and his experiences when he was young, and after listening to this you’ll want to join us in thanking him for his honesty. Patrice has come through experiences most of us can’t even imagine. Patrice also gives us the inside on what made Sir Alex Ferguson’s Manchester United such a winning machine, what people have got wrong about it, and where people go wrong in trying to achieve their own successful mindsets. In this podcast, you’ll be schooled on how to reach the top, and how to stay there. Follow Patrice: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/patrice.evra Patrice’s Book - https://amzn.eu/d/dwBaP7i Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Me playing was...

• 0:03Speaker 00

  It was just a dream.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  Growing up, it's a family, 24 brothers and sisters. One breast chicken was for three days. Growing up in the street, you need to survive. Now, when I have those images in my head, I could hear him trying to touch me and touching himself in the same time next to the bed, you know. I was even attaching my pyjama with my shoelaces because to make sure he can't put it down. And one day he did, and I was just terrorized. So that's the things I grew up with, like, you know, I can't cry. For me, crying was a sign of weakness. When I do a video and I see a comment, someone say, "Oh, Patrice, my dad passed away. I watched one of your videos," and I smile. Thank you.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  This is more important for me than winning the Champions League or the Premier League. I'm not perfect, and I don't want to be perfect. I want to be me.

• 1:06Steven Bartlett?

  Patrice Evra. I've just sat here with him for an hour and a half. And at the very end of the conversation, he said something which I think is the perfect description of the man. He referred to himself as an iceberg.

• 1:21Steven Bartlett?

  I followed him for almost two decades, and he was, to me, this football icon, this tough guy, this defender, this champion. But as he says in this conversation, the part of the iceberg that I never got to see was the most compelling, was the most heartbreaking, and was the most interesting. He grew up in a rough part of France with 24 brothers and sisters. He was sexually abused by his head teacher. His brother, a drug addict, overdosed and died. His mother raised him in total poverty to the point where he stole his food, his shoes and his entertainment.

• 2:03Steven Bartlett?

  He endured an early upbringing that you would never wish on any child, an enemy or anyone at all in any circumstances ever. And he hid it all. He hid it all for his entire life. And only recently has he found it within himself. After very personal conversations with his mother, to share it with the world.

• 2:32Steven Bartlett?

  And only today, on this podcast, has he decided to share some of those heartbreaking details. After watching him on TV for almost two decades, I thought I knew Patrice Evra, this comedian, football champion, funny guy, happy guy.

• 2:54Steven Bartlett?

  I was wrong. All I knew was the tip of the iceberg. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 3:14Steven Bartlett?

  I've sat here with a lot of guests and sometimes I feel obliged to start with their childhoods because it seems like the the foundation of most people, specifically successful people, tends to be the case that the things they go through at an early age, especially with my sort of little background in childhood psychology, tend to shape them the most. But when I read your story in your book that's just come out, having watched you on screen as a Manchester United fan for many, many a decade and seen subsequently the guy you were on Instagram, the hilarious, entertaining person, I never, ever would have guessed, ever, that that was your upbringing, that was your childhood.

• 3:58Steven Bartlett?

  I would have guessed by the person that I came to know on screen, by the person that I watched on Instagram, I would have guessed the opposite. Take me back to before you were 10 years old because I know that 10 years old was a really pivotal moment in your life because your father left.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:12Steven Bartlett?

  What was life like before 10?

• 4:14Speaker 00

  It was. An happy, happy child, a lot of people inside the house. Sometime you have to make sure like you're ready when mom say the food is ready. Uh, he was like sleeping with two of my sibling in the same bed, a single bed. And you know, two was sleeping that way and one on that way. Sometime he was like some smelly fit, but we need space and it was all about like sharing. But I will tell you something, I, I was happy. You know, even if I was like begging in front of shop, you know, to buy a sandwich. I couldn't say in that time I wasn't happy. I was like the most happy child. But it was like tough and maybe sometime I was just in conscious.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  But of course, I think when my dad left, that's when I was like, okay. I'm not scared of anyone in this house. So now I have to grow up on my own. And that's when I was like, I would say more close to the street. Because when my dad was here, you know, just when I was saying like that, I wanna go and play outside with my friend. He was like, did you, have you done your homework?

• 5:17Speaker 00

  Even I swear, even if I did my homework, I was scared to say yes. So when you say yes to him, he was like, okay, bring me your, your book. And I remember he was like, okay, which lesson you have to learn tomorrow? And I was like doing the lesson perfectly. And he was going to the first page of the book and saying like, okay, tell me about this. And I couldn't remember. I was like, yeah, but that we did this at the beginning, you know? This is like, okay, when you learn your full book, then you will be able to go outside. So my dad, when he was at home, we didn't miss anything. You know, we have food on the table, everything was perfect.

• 5:56Speaker 00

  I, I had like a big screen TV. I remember we are one of the first family in where I, I grew up in my street to have that big screen. And all my friend, they come. So I, I, I couldn't, I will never complain when my dad was here. He did his job perfectly, but the only things, you know, my dad, uh, teach me, uh, crying is a weakness. So when he was like punishing someone and you cry, that's when you're gonna, he gonna beat you even more. So that's the things I grew up with, like, you know, I can't cry. And that's when we can talk about that toxic masculinity. They understand crying is normal, but for me, crying was a sign of weakness.

• 6:36Steven Bartlett?

  Why did he leave?

• 6:45Speaker 00

  He leave because my mom divorce him. Uh, and sometime he was, uh, he was violent with her. And I remember, you know, being kids and no one asked me these questions. That's why I'm a little bit emotional and, and you know, my mom was like, no one man can raise his hand on me. So she divorced, he had to leave, you know, she went to the police and, uh, and he had to go and it was a tough moment because, you know, when you see your dad leaving, no matter if you know the reason he shouldn't have done that, uh, leave, same taking all the sofa, the, the, the big TV, the big screen.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  He was with a big trunk waiting for him and we were all of my brother and sister crying because, you know, he's your dad. But at the same time, what he was doing to my mom, he wasn't right. So.

• 7:40Steven Bartlett?

  Did you witness that?

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think like, you know, sometime we tried to open the door and she opened that door. You know, it was, uh, it was really scary, you know? And if you, when you heard your mom like fighting back, because to be fair, my mom, she's a strong woman. You know, and my dad, uh, he say that now, he say like, don't play with your mom because she's a strong woman. So in, in that time, yeah, when you experience that, you, you just terrorize. You're like, what's, what's going on? You know, it's your parents. They should like kiss each other. So, yeah.

• 8:19Steven Bartlett?

  And you look back on that moment, he left, obviously incredibly sad moment, but are you happy that he left, considering?

• 8:27Speaker 00

  The problem, you know, when you're a kid, you, you don't really understand.

• 8:32Speaker 00

  I was happy because my mom, at the end, you know, she was, uh, she was happy. But to see your dad left, leaving, no matter which reason, you can't be happy. Uh, now I understand the reason, uh, I forgive him.

• 8:51Speaker 00

  But saying I was happy, no.

• 8:55Steven Bartlett?

  So he leaves, your life takes a turn after that because you've lost that figure in your life and maybe a bit of, I don't know, restriction has left the family home, so you can act on other motivations and incentives and other ways to survive, I guess. And what, what's the, what person did you become after that?

• 9:19Speaker 00

  I was a warrior, like.

• 9:22Steven Bartlett?

  A warrior?

• 9:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think a survivor, because after, like I say, you know, it's you in the street and oh, oh, I kill you or you kill me. You know, when you grow up in the street, that's why I hate when some people, they talk about their background and they'll say like, oh, I was a gangster. No, I would never call myself a gangster. I was just a survivor and it was difficult, you know? So, yeah, like you say, when he left, no more restriction, going out, fighting outside, lying to your mom, uh, the police, you know, bring me one day home around one A M.

• 10:05Speaker 00

  My mom was so worried, like, and I remember it was so funny because some words I didn't even know what they mean. So when they bring me back home and my mom was, you know, just he put her, uh, like her hand on his mouth, what's going on? She was, you know, his, his son, you know, bring back from the police and I was like, mom, mommy are just being an accomplice.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  And she beat me like so bad. But now I understand it's even worse, you know, because I was like, I didn't steal. I just was looking when my friend was stealing and stuff like that. So it was just a mess and no one, even my school teacher, when they were talking to me at school, I was like, can you put the volume down? You're not my dad. So I didn't let anyone, you know, talking like, saying you can't do this, you can't do that. But I always respect my mom, uh, and my brother and my sister. And I was a, I was respectful with my friend, but when someone tried to give me some authority, he couldn't have it because I was like, the one I have like the most authority on me was

• 11:13Speaker 00

  my dad. He left. So now I don't need any authority from no one.

• 11:20Steven Bartlett?

  And you get, you start, I read you started stealing things.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:24Steven Bartlett?

  You started selling weed.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think stealing was uh was normal because I was like with my friend. I remember the first time I I steal it was uh some gum. And you know, I was hanging up with my friend. They were stealing. I wasn't because I was still like having a good education from my dad, from my mom. And to be part of the group, you need to, you know, it's like some people when they drink because they want, they they find that excuse to be like social. So it was stealing. So I start steal and everyone clap me. So I was like, wow, finally I'm part of the gun. And from there, go like to deal like video games, uh to sell weed, you know, to having the best like sneakers and, you know,

• 12:06Speaker 00

  even offering some stuff to your girlfriend. I offer even like a perfume to my mom, you know, and I was so proud because I was like, at the end, you know, my dad left. A few of my brothers and sisters left after that also. So I was like, I'm the man. I need to be in charge. I need to feed my family. It wasn't the right way every time, but at least I was like, you know, my mom, like when I offer him like a bottle of perfume and I see how happy she was, but she was like always, where that come from? And I was like, lying. You know, it's just my friend, you know, he he bought it for me. But I was me, it was myself stealing it.

• 12:44Steven Bartlett?

  Some years after your father left, you you did you talk about in the book, in the opening chapters of the book, about your headmaster?

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:52Steven Bartlett?

  And you were thirteen years old, you um you ended up staying at his house and he sexually assaulted you.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  I think this is what's one of the most regret I had in my life to not speak up in that day.

• 13:17Steven Bartlett?

  How did you come to be at his house?

• 13:21Speaker 00

  It's really simple, it's because, uh, Brittany, it was far from my house. I have to take two train to go to school because I went to that school because it was a school where, you know, you're good at football, you, after school, you have to train. So it wasn't an academy, but it was a school where you can train also. So it was a good opportunity. To be fair, my mom was like, it's, it's good, he's, he's leaving the street because he will end up in jail or dead. So it's perfect for him. So I, I went there and I was taking like, you know, two train, four hours sometime and losing my, uh, my school bag, sleeping on the train, you know, even sometime end up like to another destination.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  So it was a mess and, uh, that school teacher, Ed's teacher, he, he speak to me, he said, you won't like to stay because I living, I'm living inside the, the, the school. He have his home inside the school. So I went back home and I say to my mom, you know, he offered that and my mom was like, not sure about it. At the beginning, because even when I tell her, I would speak letter about it, she, she say, I knew it. And she was like, are you sure? Can you trust this man? I was like, yeah, he seem nice, mom. So that Ed teacher at the beginning, everything was perfect. He was, uh, cooking for me in the evening. He was letting me play his Nintendo. He had the Nintendo at the time.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  So I was like, yeah, that's, that's cool. You know, I don't need to go back home on the weekend and, uh, I just stay here and, uh.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  Then every night I was in my bed and, uh, every time he was coming, you know, in my room and I was, the first time I was like, maybe, you know, just say, come to say good night.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  But he was, uh, I was sleeping and I was feeling a hand on my body and I was like, oh, what's going on, you know? Then he was trying to touch me, but I was like holding his hand. So it was like a fight for, for ten minutes. Uh, and I was still couldn't understand. I was thirteen, but you know, I, I, I didn't have any, uh, sexual relation even with any girls at that time. So for me, it was, everything was new. I was like, what's, what's going on, you know? Um, we fight many time and he didn't succeed.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  And he was, you know, now when I have those image in my head, I could hear him trying to touch me and touching himself in the same time next to the bed, you know. Then he was leaving and every time I was like, oh, it's gone. So he's start to become a ritual. Every time I go to bed, he coming, the same things, fight, everything, fight, fight. And one day, you know, I was even attaching my pajama with my laces, like I remember. Yeah, shoelaces, because to make sure like he can't put it down and to be fair, you know, he was trying like on the top of my clothes, but fighting. So one day he did, he put my pants down and he put my penis in his mouth.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  And I was just like terrorized. I remember I was, I just freeze.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  You know, I knock his head, but I, and I, I just freeze, I couldn't, I didn't understand what's going on. Then he left.

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Then I wake up, I can't even remember what's happened because, you know, those things you just like erase them from your memory.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  So I back to school, I think in school I was thinking about what's, what's happened is like something not normal then. Then I went home, I say, mom, I don't wanna sleep anymore to that head teacher. She say, why? I say, no, I just don't want.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  I never tell her the reason until now. So after that, I, I live all my life with that. From the street, you know, you come back, you like imagine you tell that to one of your friend. They're gonna say, you know, you're weak, all of those stuff.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  So even for me, when I had my first sexual relation, it was weird because I had this man in my head. You know, and this I never told that to anyone. So I was like massively traumatized.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Then, actually, because all of that, I back to my school where I grew up in the street. And I stopped even going to that school, even like people were like, but you're so good at football, why? I say, I don't need it. I will keep training on my own on the street, you know, I don't want to be in that school anymore.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  So, yeah, I grew up with that things for so many years. And what I feel as a coworker is when I was twenty four years old, not twenty years old.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  And I was still playing for Monaco at the time. And the police called me. Hi, Mr. This is the number of Patricia, yeah? Um, you know, we got a lot of complaint about that A teacher. I don't even remember his name. I don't, I could even tell you his face because I erase all of this in my memory. Uh. It's been a lot of complaint about child, they're being abused about that A teacher. Did he touch you? No.

• 18:48Speaker 00

  Are you sure? Yes, I'm sure. And I was angry even when people asked me that question, you know, it's like, oh, there, someone asked me about that. Put the phone down.

• 19:00Speaker 00

  So all this year, I was like, wow, Patrice. You had the opportunity when you were thirteen years old, you didn't. I will understand. But now you're twenty and you couldn't, just what? Because you still shame of it? Because you're famous? You're scared of the reaction of the people? But doing that, that day, that's why growing up. When people say, Patrice, you're good guys, I, I wasn't feeling that, that way because I was feeling as a coworker.

• 19:30Steven Bartlett?

  A coward.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  A coward, yeah, because he wasn't about Patrice. It was about the other child I let down when the police called me. It's about the other child, they're still being abused right now.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  So coming out with this.

• 19:47Speaker 00

  Helped me a lot. And I have to say a massive thanks to the woman of my life, Margot, because. You know, sometimes people say you need a psychologist, but in life, sometimes it's about which person you meet. I'm someone I really believe in energy. And to be fair, after that, trusting anyone, a psychologist. I would say maybe I would tell him this, he don't care. He's just paid for that job. Some of them are really good and never, and I've met a psychologist, but. Made that woman like.

• 20:15Steven Bartlett?

  She was a romantic partner?

• 20:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. She, she, she make me.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  Being myself and being honest with myself. Don't be shame of anything, baby. And I'm here. And I will never, me, Patrice, the tough guys, don't throwing emotion. Think a woman can, you know, extract those real emotion for myself. I was like, wow, forty years old.

• 20:43Steven Bartlett?

  There was a day you told, you shared that with her?

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:46Steven Bartlett?

  Can you tell me about that day?

• 20:49Speaker 00

  Like I say, the day I shared that with her, it was, uh. You know, when she met me, I was thirty eight, so I was just retired from football. Doing all my things and she, oh my god, you, you seem so happy and such a positive man. But I, do you care about yourself, Patrice? I say, yeah. And she asked me one simple question. Are you happy?

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Yes, I'm happy. I'm happy, you know, I make you happy, I make my. But Patrice, what make you happy?

• 21:30Speaker 00

  I'm happy. No, I, just saying like I'm happy, this is not an answer. So she go deep. And we didn't talk about the subject. I say, no, I'm fine. She said, no, because I can see, yes, you're an impulsive person. You like to fight, you say because this from the street and everything. But I think you got something, you got a pain on your chest and you don't want. I was like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Then one day.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  We watched something and it was about pedophile and stuff, so. Again, she looked at my face, she said like, you okay? I say, yeah, I'm okay. Why you ask me? No. Patrice, I feel you. You're hiding something.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  I say, why, why you, you know, I don't like when people wanna try inside, go to get inside. I'm fine, I was still closing the door.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  If you love me, you should like tell me what's going on, I need to, I need to know already.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  I look at her, I just try crying like a baby. I cry like a baby. She heard me. What's going on? And I tell her the full story. So she cry. She was like, I knew. Thank you, if you say that to someone, to the police, to your mom, I say, no. You are the first person, and I don't wanna say to anybody else. Do you wanna see a, uh, uh, do you go for, do you wanna go for therapy? And I say, I'm fine, I told you. No, Patricia, you're gonna explode one day. You need to, you know, let it out.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Then when I cry and, uh, I feel much better about myself. And I was still like, you know, I cry in front of her, now she will take advantage of me. She will think I'm weak. But she was like, you know, baby, I, I even love you more, this is a strain. Stop thinking this is a weakness. That's when she introduced me

• 23:43Speaker 00

  to that toxic masculinity, couldn't understand before. She explained to me what it was about. Like being a man is not like being strong or... I was like, this is my education, this is the way I grew up, this is why the dad, like many dads, they do the same mistake. And I did the same with my first child, Benny. Sometime he was talking to me, I was like, you got everything, why you complain? Come on, ah daddy, you know, when I was doing this, come on, don't be weak. Ah daddy, you know, it's painful, ah, it's okay. But when I think about all of that now, I'm like, cause I live with that toxic masculinity. And I think men like us have to change that.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Crying is a strain. And you know, when you grow in the streets, just like holding the hand of your girlfriend is a sign of weakness. You're not allowed to do that.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  So I'm discovering myself. Who gonna believe that I'm thirty eight years old, now I'm forty, I will start to discover myself. Now, everything makes sense. That trauma make me become who I am, like sometime a soldier, like no emotion, I'm going to do the job. Sometime I win some trophy, we celebrate. It was fake. I didn't, I wasn't like that happy. If you ask me, Patrice, are you happy now? I say yes. Now I'm complete, I'm content, I feel blessed and I feel lucky. But when I used to play football, I was a robot, I was just doing my job.

• 25:21Steven Bartlett?

  Your brother. You talked about the fact that you started dealing drugs back when you were younger and then your, your brother started taking drugs.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  This was a

• 25:37Speaker 00

  another massive trauma, you know. When you wake up in the, in the morning and you just wanna go in the toilet and you open the door and you see your, your brother with a, you know.

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Uh, and, uh, how you say this?

• 25:53Steven Bartlett?

  A needle?

• 25:54Speaker 00

  A needle, yeah. Looking at you with like eyes, you know, like red eyes and

• 26:02Speaker 00

  just closing the door. And you have to hold on your, your, you know, if you wanna pee, you have to hold it because it's there. And it was one toilet, the whole house, so. And this teach me

• 26:15Speaker 00

  to never touch any drug because I saw my brother and he lost his life because of that.

• 26:21Steven Bartlett?

  He lost his life?

• 26:21Speaker 00

  He die as a overdose in Senegal. He even sell his, uh, his document, his French passport. And he went in Senegal and one day they called my mom, my auntie say, your son is dead. In a bathroom.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  So it was tough for me to talk about this in my book because my mom, she's the son of my mom. And I don't have the right to talk about it in my book because we're talking about a dead person. But I just unfortunately, this show me like taking drug, I can lose my life. Like the same for alcohol.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  I didn't drink until I was thirty three years old. Because for me, a glass of alcohol, it was the homeless people living on my street. And anyway, my mom and my dad don't drink. So I never had that culture. So that's why I couldn't understand when I came in England. And people were drinking, even like footballer players. And you know, when we were going to party. They were always say to the waitress, can we have a hot chocolate for Patrice? Because the alcohol and the drugs, it was like, you're gonna end up dead, poisoned, you know.

• 27:33Steven Bartlett?

  You um, so going back to this topic of to- toxic masculinity. It's something I've actually been thinking a lot about because my girlfriend, funnily enough, has started to talk to me a lot about the idea. This is why I was just remaining quiet and listening first, but but um, she started talking to me a lot about the idea of the masculine and the feminine and how a rounded, healthy man embodies both sides of him and is able to tap into both sides of him. Sounds like your early years um, made you use one of those sides, which is the masculine side as a form of self-defense in many ways, as a way to survive. Because I'm thi- I'm hearing what you went through and I'm thinking that, you know, using the feminine energy, the the emotion, the expression of, you know, ones, how someone feels, care, the softness,

• 28:18Steven Bartlett?

  wouldn't have been conducive with survival in that situation. So as you get forty years on, how do you then unlearn your survival technique? How do you, how do you unlearn the masculine defensive, don't cry, don't show weakness? Which you now know is is um, important for you to have good relationships, romantic relationships, to be balanced yourself, to be open, to be expressive and to not self-destruct.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  What I love about you is the way you question myself. You even make me think. But you're right, if I have this feminine, you know, emotion in that time, I won't survive.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  Because we know women are more emotional than than men. Hmm. So what you just say to me, I'm like, yeah, Patrice. Hmm. You wanna fight against that uh toxic masculinity, but you're happy when you need it. Hmm. Now, because you're forty years old, you don't need it anymore. And you're a dad now, so you're gonna teach. You're gonna teach, but I'll be honest with you, that's why, you know, my woman was scared when we have our our son. Uh she was like, Patrice.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  Before he born, I don't want him to be like you. Wow. Hmm. Put that on my face. What do you mean? Yeah, I want him to be determined, passionate, funny, positive. But I don't want him to have your emotion. Or lack of. Yeah, I was like, but I think, you know, when he cry, I will say like, no, don't cry. She was, that's exactly what I'm talking about. When he cry, I want you to say, it's okay. Let your emotion out. But it's difficult for me at the beginning, so I was like. Nah, I want, I I don't want him to cry when he fall and everything.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  And the funny part is. When she was still pregnant. Uh you know, when woman, this is more about relationship, because now I know relationship is not just about love. It's about caring and communication. You know, I don't wanna be like now, the the priest, or because when I talk like this, so many people like that, oh, I wish my husband is like you, no. I've been the bad guys too, so don't give me wrong. But now I'm more like feeling like. So back to that moment, we were in the car. She was with a a drink, and I said, don't drink because it's bumpy and you're gonna, and she hate like, you know, having mark on her.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  She drink, pop, fall on the shirt, yes, been on the shirt, she cry.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  I promise you, Steve, I cry instantly with her because I feel her. I feel a sadness.

• 31:09Speaker 00

  The whole Patrice will be like, but come on, why are you crying just because you speak, come on. But in that moment, I didn't, I wasn't focused on the reason why she's crying. I was like, just on the emotion, she's crying, she's in pain.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  You don't need to fix it, she need a hug. The moment she saw me crying, she stopped crying. She stopped crying straight away.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  And for me, it was new, I was like, what's going on? I can even feel your pain, you know, sometimes you say you love someone. But this is like a deep love, like even now, she cry, I cry automatically, even now. We're talking and when she's next to me, I miss her. I never experienced that. And now it's so special to come back to my son.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  When he cry now, you know, my woman can be, ah, come on, Lila, ah. I'm like, but it's okay. You know, it must be a reason, because he's angry, so I'm the one softer now. That's why I'm like, wow, Patrice, you're just a different man. We had a rule, if we argue, because don't get me wrong, we argue like normal couple, we're not special. But it's just like, we don't put it under the carpet, we fix it. But not like we force it in a natural way. When, for example, we argue straight away and she say, we need to talk, because woman say, we need to talk, I'm not ready. We need to talk, I'm not, no, give me my space. Then I come back, okay, let's talk about it.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  I'm apologize, but I'm apologize because I mean it, not because you forced me to apologize.

• 32:52Steven Bartlett?

  And you're not trying to win.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  I'm not trying to win. And then I understand, I'm like, okay, baby, oh, lucky we are. The special love we have right now, like, I will never believe the way I believe in love right now. That's why I'm encouraging all the kids, the next generation, this love exist.

• 33:12Steven Bartlett?

  But it exists. So it's again, you, it sounds like you're just recounting my life. Specifically over, I met, I met a lady, she's called, I won't say it, Melanie. And she, she was very keen, she said very similar things to me. She was like, there's something you've not told me about, et cetera. And her real sort of drive with me has been trying to make me tap into the feminine side of me. Which again means opening up, being vulnerable, removing my ego. When we argue, it's to try and solve a problem as opposed to trying to win. And that also, and she slowly got this different person out of me. In my previous relationship, snapping, wow, leave, I'll just leave, right? Yeah.

• 33:50Steven Bartlett?

  And in this one, it's like, she lets me speak, I let her speak. Okay, sometimes we, but we're both trying to understand the person. And the thing that really changed, and it's funny, because when you talked about that day when you opened up with your partner about what had gone on, she created a safe space. And once you have that safe space and you learn that this is a safe space, this relationship is a safe space. You don't have to be that person you were in the streets, right? You don't even have to be the person you are in the group chat on WhatsApp. You can cry. You can say, babe, I, I feel insecure, I feel triggered. And that for me has been this like tremendous catalyst in myself, because now I can really investigate myself with someone, right? And know that they're not gonna laugh at me or think I'm not a man.

• 34:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:34Steven Bartlett?

  Because I'm crying or because I'm, I've got feelings, right? And that, that meant that again, when you just described the way you feel about her, the sense like when she's not by your side, you, you didn't know a love like this existed. I was saying that this morning. I've just left her in Indonesia. And I was saying, I didn't realize I could have a relationship like this with someone where every argument we have heals our relationship to a stronger place. It doesn't leave a scratch or a scar, which, and that's the thing, you know?

• 35:01Speaker 00

  But you, you resume it perfectly. And like you say, sometime when we have a discussion, like. We all love even get even more stronger.

• 35:10Steven Bartlett?

  Stronger, right?

• 35:11Speaker 00

  Because we are in love with each other. But what I like, what you say a word, safe.

• 35:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, safe space. It's a safe space.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  Feeling safe.

• 35:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  Allowed to be yourself.

• 35:20Steven Bartlett?

  I'll say that to my girlfriend now. So I'll say, this sounds like, I've never said this before, but what I'll literally say to her, I need a safe space. And that means that I'm about to say some things which might trigger you, might make you unhappy, but I need to say it because it's how I feel. So I'll literally say, give me a safe space.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:35Steven Bartlett?

  And that means listen to me.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  But it, but exactly, you know, I think is, it is easy to, to listen to someone, but to understand the person, you know, to saying, I heard you. This is different.

• 35:47Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  It mean you really understand, because you can talk for many hours. I'm like, yeah, I'm listening.

• 35:52Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you're not, you're waiting to speak. You're building your, your argument against.

• 35:56Speaker 00

  No, but, but, but exactly, but what you say, I think we're really similar and. I, I was excited to come today and I'm even more happy to be here and to keep like talking. We can talk, I think, many hours. And I just feel like so open, even talking about you. You asked me a few questions about why my dad leave many things like. It was not easy to not cry, but I like that.

• 36:21Steven Bartlett?

  But this is something, this is something that men need to hear. And you think about just from what we've both learnt from our stories there with relationships. But just even two men having a conversation like this, how, how freeing that is for us, how it's healing for us. But also it allows us to form relationships which are real and deep and meaningful, where we don't want to be running out in the street. And so I, it's, you know, it's one of the real things I think is going to form a big part of my life too, as you've successfully done with this book is. Trying to tell men without having to meet the women like we met, how to be in touch with the, the true, I don't even say the feminine side, the, the, the, the full version of themself.

• 37:03Speaker 00

  I absolutely, I, I think, I, I, no, but I, I absolutely agree with you because it's a challenge, because we have a little help. Because we find someone, like you say, we feel open and we can, you know, you can be yourself. But yeah, I think we we should fight with that toxic masculinity because it's not good even for yourself, but even for your children, for many, for many reasons. But you test me by saying, Patrice, if you didn't have that masculine, you know, masculine, toxic masculinity, how you will be able to survive in that when you were that kid? And I will be look at you straight away and saying, no.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  So it's a good subject and I hope if you wanna debate more about it, I will be a good client.

• 37:50Steven Bartlett?

  Either way, we have to unlearn it, right? We have to unlearn it once we've realised that it's not serving us. And that is admittedly a very slow process, one that goes, you know, because even I, I have to be very aware of that part of me, the masculine ego part of me. And I always think with trauma and with these kinds of things, you never actually fully recover. I I think the most important thing is to put it out in front of you so that it's no longer controlling your life from the back room and ruining your relationships and stuff. Just for me, like, I've got a lot of traumas from my childhood with my parents and their relationship. I still have them and I just have them out in front of me and the power they have over me has diminished.

• 38:33Steven Bartlett?

  I know what the triggers are, I know, I understand them and I just wanna keep them out in front of me so I can hopefully live a happy life. Football, bit of a segue. You're very good at football. I'm trying to figure out what, like, how you became so good at football with all of that stuff happening in your life and that culture you're in and what football was for you as a young man.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  I have everything. So football saved my life. When my friend, they were stealing, to get away from the stealing, I was like training on my own, even when it was snowing. But come on, Patrice, you're never going to to succeed anywhere. You're from the street, you're you're a black person, you will never gonna make it, you know, just find a white girlfriend with lot of money. That was the the way the people, yeah, think in my street. Stop, you know, you look cute, you can just find a girl and, you know, I was like, no, you know, I love football and I need to training every day. I remember even at school, sometime when we went to school and the teacher couldn't make it because of the traffic or the snow and. They were like, okay, we free some kids, they were wanted to go back home. I was like, no, no, no.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  It's a football pitch just next to the school. We have to play. And I was threatening them. Sometime they couldn't like some kid. I was like, if you don't come, I'm gonna beat you. And they were coming and training. Yeah, I was forcing people to play football with me. Why?

• 39:58Speaker 00

  It's an addiction. I don't know. It was my reason of living. Is it your escape? I I I think I could say it was both. It was my escape, but it was also my love, my passion. Just when you give me like a football ball, it was like everything for me, you know? I remember that A teacher. The first day you you come at school and they ask what you want to become later. And many people were lawyers, policemen, many good job doctor and. And me, she was looking right, reading what I was my note and footballer player. But I didn't even know what was footballer player. I was like, I play football, but so I'm footballer player. And she was taking my note in front of everyone and she was like.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  But she's think footballer player is a job and everyone was laughing, everyone, my friend, I was looking so. And she was going even deeper. She was, but you know, if it's a trial and three hundred kid, they will pick one kid. Do you think it's going to be you? I was like, yes. And everyone was even more laughing. But at the end now, I don't want to get any revenge with that. Teacher, I just want to make sure she don't say the same things to other kids. Because me in that time, I was really strong mentally. So no one, you know, can project their own fear because some people, I hate those people.

• 41:22Speaker 00

  When you say I'm going to this, no, you can't, because they try to project in their own failure on you. Me now, if a kid, I was, you know, I see some, some, some kid at the school in Manchester. And I was like, if you want to become the president of the universe, go for it. You're going to have lot of enemies and make a lot of sacrifice. There's no president of the universe. I know it doesn't exist. That's what I mean. But that's what I mean. I'm like the, even though like the job doesn't exist, go for it. Go for it. If you dream about it. And that's. That was the beauty of me when I was child, like everyone, like I did a trial at P H G. And I did everything perfect. At the end, he say.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  You're too small and you're from the street and we scare you're going to steal things in the dressing room. Yeah. PSG. PSG, that's what the coach told me. And they didn't take me just for those two reasons. So, so I have a lot of like, you won't make it. And more people do that, more I'm like, that's why I say I'm lucky mentally. I can't tell you why I'm that strong, maybe about from my dad, my mom or all the things that I have to survive. But this was even making me more stronger. Did you have a plan B?

• 42:40Speaker 00

  No. I didn't have any plan B. This was all or nothing. And that's the scary things when I think about it now, because some of my friends or some people, they were like, Patrice, you know, school is important. You should have your diploma and stuff. I was like, I wanna be a footballer player, but I get in shock when I knew actually playing football, you can win money. I wasn't aware about that, like when I signed my first contract when I was seventeen, I didn't care about the money. In that time, it will make you laugh. You know what I was most happy is when I saw my tracksuit on the, on the bed and I wear it. And I was looking myself in the mirror and I was, oh my God.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  And I went downstairs to join the team and I see all the players sit in the table and people coming to serving them the food. It was like, I remember like three fork on one side, three knife on one side.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  I call my mom, I say, mom, I'm even like this is paradise. People selling us the food, I've got like three, now I've got a tracksuit, we all dress the same. And my mom cry at the phone, I remember that day. So.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  You know, when people ask me, what is your best memory when you play football? That was my best memory, not winning the Champions League or it was when I was seventeen. You know, that kid and just, just having food and a normal tracksuit.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  Make me so happy. And that's my best memory I had since I played football.

• 44:27Steven Bartlett?

  Cause you you'd made it.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  I made it that day.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  I was like, I made it, man.

• 44:35Speaker 00

  I won't be in the street anymore. I won't have to survive to fight. I won't have to beg money.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  So it was just crazy. And even in that time, even some people, they still take advantage. Because when I signed my first contract, actually, I signed a paper with the mafia, the Italian mafia, and I was their uh property. And I didn't doubt, I found out this when after I wanted to move for I S Roma. And I S Roma, we say we have to call off the deal because you're the property of that man. And it was a guy from the mafia. And actually, on that time, I remember when I filed my my first contract, I was earning, uh it was like fifty pound now per month.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  And we had like five months where they didn't pay us. Uh, I remember my mom and my brother, they come to visit me in Sicily and, you know, a breast chicken, one breast chicken was for three days. We had to cut it like in cube, little cube. I remember she was like twisting in a little bag. And that's it. That's what for the meal for. Sometime we had only one meal per day. But I was happy. And I remember my mom come to visit me in Sicily. And she cried. She said, but what you doing here?

• 45:58Speaker 00

  You know, I was like, mommy, I just love football. She was like, but you have nothing. Look where you live. I was, you know, it was like, if you see my first flat, I mean, like, they allowed me to live on that flat. It was disaster. But I was happy because I had football. And every time when I was training or when we played a game, I was scared to the referee to to blow the final whistle. Because I was like, what I'm going to do now? I'm back to the reality. So for me, playing was,

• 46:34Speaker 00

  it was just a dream.

• 46:44Steven Bartlett?

  Hard to imagine, it's hard to, hard to imagine how, how difficult life must be for you to not want the whistle to blow on a, on a football game.

• 46:58Steven Bartlett?

  Was there a moment where, where that changed and where you no longer started to dread the final whistle blowing because your life off the pitch was somewhere to look forward to?

• 47:10Speaker 00

  It is when I, I get rid of those people around me and the mafia and I signed with a new agent and I signed for Nice, so I go back to France, a bigger salary. I think I was earning something like three K per month, so much better life, be able to even help my mom. And from that moment, I was like, okay, now I'm safe, I'm safe. And after, you know, I signed for Monaco, of course, and I keep my word. I say, you know, when my dad left and in school they give you like a little money.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  And my dad was taking this money to send it to Senegal to my other brother and sister. So I remember my sister went after my mom, like, you know, with true lawyers and everything. She get that money from the school and not my dad anymore. My sister get that money and she go to buy like some makeup and everything. I was like, shame on you. Oh, mom, like she feeding us every single day, like, and why you don't give that money? And I, I say, me, mommy, I don't want anything. This is for you because we're living in your roof, you're feeding us every day. This is for you. No, but Patricia, this is for you. Mommy, I don't need this. And I say, mom.

• 48:34Speaker 00

  When I'm gonna have my big contract, the first things I gonna do, because that's was my motivation, is to buy a house to my mom. And I did it, and I think that was one of the most pride moment of my life, because I say to my mom, and I keep my word, and I bought her a house in Senegal. Before I bought, of course, with my money, when I played for Monaco, my Porsche and everything cars, because I like cars. Not now anymore, because I understand how stupid it is. But, yeah, that was uh one of my biggest achievement.

• 49:08Steven Bartlett?

  She must have been proud, right?

• 49:10Speaker 00

  My mom, uh, my mom cry every time she see me. Because uh, sometimes she's like, you don't, it's many things you don't know, Patrice. Like when we were like alone and no one wanted to help us. And now that's why it's so funny when suddenly you have someone and people, they like your auntie come back or your uncle, but they weren't there when, you know, we need them the most. So she always cry, she say I'm too nice. But me, I'm like, I don't have any hate in my heart. It's difficult.

• 49:44Steven Bartlett?

  And Manchester United. I'm uh, yeah. I can't, I can't imagine what that would have been like, getting a, getting a call that that's uh.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  But you will laugh, because before United, I was start being of, I will call it overconfident and arrogant. I was playing for Monaco, I reached the final of Champions League. Being named four time in the world, the best left back in the French league, playing for the national team.

• 50:14Speaker 00

  So I remember my agent came and he said, Patrice, you know, in January, he say, it's like teams, like, you have Inter, Liverpool, Manchester United.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  I say, yeah, cool. I say, and what stuck in my head when he say Manchester United, Cantona. Really? Yeah, Cantona. Yeah, the colors, yeah. Wow, I say, okay, Manchester, I swear, Cantona, yeah, because I wasn't following. Really? Yeah, I can tell you something, I I don't watch football. You're supposed to say it was a childhood dream. Yeah, it was just like, it's just me and playing football. So watching football is like going to work. That's when I was young, but now as a pundit, I have to watch football game. But it's something I never been interested in, and it's something I never enjoyed. So I didn't know, although sometime I was watching some result, Manchester United because of Cantona. So.

• 51:07Speaker 00

  I say to my agent, yeah, okay, he say you should go to Manchester. I think Manchester suit you. I say, why not? Then we met Sir Alex Ferguson, because at that time, you know, I still playing for Monaco, so you can't be approached by another team, you know, you broke the rules. So we met in the airport, in the secret room, yeah. A secret room in the airport. Yeah, in the secret room in the airport. And that day, that interview was like being interviewed by the FBI. It was like, do you smoke? Do you drink? Do you like to party? Are you ready to not lose one game? Are you ready to not even draw a game? Yes?

• 51:52Speaker 00

  Sir Alex said that. Yeah, he shake my hand. He said, now you shake my hand. So that's, you know, playing for Man United, or everything I say, that's what you you will have to do and all the stuff. Even if some people, they drink and they do many things, but it was about more the winning mentality. And when he shake my hand, he looked straight in my eyes. And when you look straight at his eyes, you make sure you don't disappoint him. So what I love about Ferguson is that day also, he say, you know, son, we know your background, you know where you come from. But just be yourself. I won't change you. I just want you to bleed for United, for the fan, for the people, for Manchester, you know. Uh, work ethic.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  And it was already in my DNA. So when I joined United, I was like, finally, I can be myself. Because even in France, playing for Monaco, when sometime I was saying like, I wanna be the best left back. Or I am the best. Oh, he's too arrogant, is this? So the French media, they didn't understand me. They were like, you know, he's too arrogant. And I win also the the youngest French player in the league. And normally only striker like Henri Zidane. I was the first defender to win those kind of trophies. So I was like overconfident. So when I joined Manchester and Ferguson tell me all those words, it was a different story.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  I was like, finally, I can express myself. Like, Canton, I say, you know, in France, they will build him the guillotine. In Manchester, they will build him a statue. And that's the truth. Because in Manchester, they let you be yourself, you know. Even if, you know, you have to kick a fan or stuff, they will still be behind. They know it's wrong. But you still feel the support. You still feel you're part of the family. So we're gonna accept you, you know. Uh, the way you are. And that's what's really important. Even if, I think everyone know the story of my first game.

• 53:53Steven Bartlett?

  Think I said well.

• 53:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:57Speaker 00

  Just a crazy, because I I just came back. I just trained with the team three days. We had a derby against Manchester City, playing at twelve. I never play at twelve in my life, apart when I was kid, but never play at twelve. Come for the breakfast, nine, I see Michael Silvestre, Luisa, my my French teammate, eating beans. You know, pasta. I'm not a good breakfast guy. So I start doing the same, you know, I'm like, okay, in this league, you know. You need to to eat because it's a strong league. I eat. I feel sick. I went in my room. I vomit.

• 54:36Speaker 00

  I said I need to call the doc and he need to say to the manager, I can't play that game. But I was like, Patrice, you just sign. You can't say that. Again, toxic masculinity, they will say I'm weak, I'm scared. I play, I say I play. Don't ask me why, you know, in Manchester is never sunny. In nine years, I just done like three barbecue in nine years. That day was so hot, the sun was like on my face. I was like, did I'm back to Monte Carlo? I was like, what's going on here? For the first, the first ball, Trevor Saint Clair just headball me, I was cut straight away. It was like, welcome to England, welcome to the Premier League. And in one point, one point I was again the post, I remember, you know, when you have those bubble,

• 55:21Speaker 00

  the cartoon and you've, you know, writing what you think about. I was like, oh my God, what the hell I'm doing here? The football is so fast, so strong, I should have keep chilling in Monte Carlo.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  Losing two nil halftime, Ferguson give the air dryer to everyone and he come to me, he say you, now you sit and you learn the English football. So I didn't understand because, you know, I didn't speak very well English and Carlos Carrios was the one like translating. And I put my, you know, the doctor was like cleaning my blood and, and I put my, and Carlos Carrios say, no, no, Patrice, it's, it's over, it's finished.

• 56:02Speaker 00

  So imagine me playing for France, best left by, nah nah nah nah nah, being sub after the first forty five minutes. But he, he get even worse and worse after that. So we lose the game, I back home and my Italian agent with his wife were staying with me in my flat. And my agent look at me like this, he said, Patrice, I'm sorry.

• 56:26Speaker 00

  Say what? He said I should never broke you in Manchester. I'm sorry, you should have stayed in Monaco, you know. And his wife on the background looking at me. I promise that that day. I was so low, I was like even my own agent, he don't believe in me anymore. I was like, wow. So after that, I know I play a Liverpool game, a good game, we win one zero, Rio Ferdinand scored the winning goal and everything and I had a great game. So he back, but the first six months was really difficult for me and Nemanja Vidic, we came, we arrived at the same time. We even play with the reserve and we get sub half time again. In the reserve. In the reserve. Imagine me and Nemanja Vidic in the shower. I remember I say, oh, my agent say, you know, I is Roma.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  I will maybe go back in Italy. Vidic was like, okay, I will go to school also. They they want me back and stuff.

• 57:18Speaker 00

  So all of that, my teammate were laughing. Rio, Wayne Rooney, when in the training, I was like sleeping and they were like laughing when someone was, you know. Shoulder you, they were laughing. And I remember one day, Paul Scholes, when I make it, when he respect me, say, you know, Patrice. I I think you were like a jockey. I I even asked like the boss if he can sell you back to Monaco, but for free. Send me back for free, yeah. And I look at them, you know, all those things, you know, when I saw my teammate laughing when I was not playing a game. He didn't put me down. I was like, I'm going to show them what is the real Patrice. Because it's difficult when you come to a club like, you know. End of January, because, you know, you miss half of the season. So after I missed the World Cup.

• 58:03Speaker 00

  My follow French teammate, Luisa and Mikel, they went to the World Cup two thousand and six. I was filming. I back to Monaco, I was in the gym all the summer. Uh, I was looking the French national team reaching the final of World Cup, but they lose against Italy. So I was like, okay, I understand the football in England now. It's like you have to be strong first, then after you can play with your feet. So I get some muscle, everything. I came back to the preseason. We had a preseason in South Africa. I was the man of the tournament. And I remember Mick Philan, the second coach, he came and he shook my hand and said, now you are United players. From that day, even before the season start, I know I will make it and the rest is history.

• 58:48Steven Bartlett?

  You played in a lot of teams. I sat here with Rio Ferdinand as well. I asked him a very similar question. What was it that made Manchester United achieve the success they achieved?

• 59:01Speaker 00

  It's so many things. You know, when you say, I can say like the work ethic, the discipline, the passion. The, I think it's also the character, personality. I think Ferguson,

• 59:16Speaker 00

  he wanted to meet player in person to see if he can feel their character, their personality. If they're going to be ready to, to handle the pressure. Pressure, playing for Manchester, the pressure is a gift, is a privilege. Like I want to add pressure, like, I didn't want Ferguson to say, you play a good game. I want Ferguson like to give me the air dryer. It was a little bit like, it's really weird. But I didn't expect any compliment. Like for me, playing for, under Sir Alex Ferguson and Manchester United, I wasn't, I never scared of anyone. I never scared of Sir Alex Ferguson, but I was scared to disappointing him. So it's about respect. What make Manchester United, it was like,

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  I have many coaches, they say winning is important, but Ferguson winning in United is normal. Like the goal is to win like four trophy per season. I will, I will tell you a story. When we won the Champions League in two thousand eight.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Exciting, we went on the plane, putting the music loud, you know, dancing. Ryan Giggs look at me, can, can, you know, can you put this? I was like, hey, we just win the Champions League and the Premier League. Yeah, yeah, but you know, we need to sleep, we need to rest. Okay, that's, that's weird. We land. Ferguson, I remember, we were on the bus and he take the mic. He say, congratulations. Well done, I'm proud of you to be in the champion of Europe. But uh, next year, if you don't wanna win it again, I will end many contract of, many player of you. If you don't, I don't feel the same passion and the same anger. Now, because he was the Euro two thousand eight, now go and enjoy having the,

• 1:01:02Speaker 00

  and use the F, the F word with your, with your national team. Boom, no parade, no celebration with the fan. I remember I went home and I was with my back, I drop it, I was like, this is the feeling of winning the Champions League and the league? I was like, wow. But the problem, you become a robot. So you're not even happy when you win the league, the years and years. I was, you know, when we celebrate and the, it was fake.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Inside, it was just pretending. Of course, it's a release, it's an achievement, but because you just become a machine, a robot. Winning, that's the only things matter. And that's why he, he goes to play for Man United, but also sacrifice. You know, when I talk about sacrifice, I'm not shame about, you even have to sacrifice your own family.

• 1:01:58Speaker 00

  That's what I did. I give you an example. You know, my first son, Lenny, he was three years old. And I came back home one day and he was crying. I say, why are you crying? He said, because I hate Manchester United. I say, why? He said, because they, they took my dad away. And you know, the the United fan, they have a flag where they united kids and wife in that order. I never laugh in that flag. Lot of people laugh, I never, because that's that's the that's what it cost me to succeed at United. Was United, United. That's why I had a really strong relationship with Ferguson, because he knew.

• 1:02:41Speaker 00

  I don't need Manchester United. I love Manchester United. And I could like die for this club, and I still could die for this club, for the fan and for any manager. So.

• 1:02:54Speaker 00

  To play for Manchester United, it costs you your life, your normal life. You you're part of another family.

• 1:03:04Steven Bartlett?

  It's interesting, because when you were younger, you had a problem with authority.

• 1:03:07Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:03:08Steven Bartlett?

  Ferguson is the ultimate authority.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  I still, in different way, I still, you know, Ferguson, sometime he chowed on me, I was stood up. Facing, like I was like, if you go far, I don't know, I don't guarantee nothing will happen, but. It's also I was, I wanted to make sure. I didn't want to disobey in front of people. This is really important, because you always question, you know. The coach, if you answer back, and that's why I also say to kids, when the manager talk, you should never answer back in the in front of the people, but. You can go after, and that's what I was doing with Ferguson. So I tell you one game.

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  We play against Tottenham, winning two nil half time, playing the best game in my life. I promise you, I was like, wow. On fire, came back in the dressing room, bring some water, people, oh my god, Patricia, on fire, everything. I said, Ferguson said, when he sit and he doesn't speak for for three minutes or five, like you you mean like someone is in trouble. I look at him, he look at me.

• 1:04:19Speaker 00

  He said, Patricia, you okay? And me, yeah, yeah, I'm okay, boss, yeah. Are you tired?

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  Seriously, I look around, if he was like a prank, if he was some camera, even people were like, what? I say, no, he say, why you pass the ball back to van der Sar? I say, because I didn't have any solution forward and that was the only pass I passed, because I like to play forward. If you do that again, I will, you will come and watch the rest of the game next to me. And he used the many F word. He said, this is the worst game you're playing since you play for Manchester United. That's why I stood up. I was like, what's going on? This is, this is like, this is, he was like, you shouldn't, if you pass the ball back again, I promise you, you will never play for. And just this, like I stand up.

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

  But I keep my mouth shut. I was biting my lips. Even people, they were in shock. They were scared, like, everyone was like, what's going on? Came back, second half. We beat Tottenham four nil, boom boom, four nil and everything. After the game, everyone, oh my god, don't listen to him, Patrice, you were on fire. Yeah, did my shower quickly. I remember, I couldn't wait to sleep and to come back the next day. Next day I come. I open. What is it? I open the door. Oh, Patrice, how are you, my son? Say, boss, who I am? What's happened yesterday? Patrice, you were the best player on the pitch.

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  But you know, Cristiano was start doing some skill, some player, they were like missing to, a chance to score, you know, when you play for Manchester United, when you score one goal, you have to score a second. When you score a second, you have to score a third goal, you have to respect the people they come to watching.

• 1:06:09Speaker 00

  I was like, wait a minute, boss. You were the best player, my son. And I get out of my office. F F C.

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  French F C. And he was like whistling, singing and laughing. Then I came out of the office. I was like, actually, you know, I could take the fire. He wanted to send a message to the other player. To Cristiano. Cristiano and many of the player.

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  To keep focus and to respect Tottenham. But he he picked the best player on the pitch to send that message automatically. Or the other player, they were like, if he's killing the best player on the pitch, we better. But that's what I'm talking about managing. That's Fergie.

• 1:07:02Steven Bartlett?

  You had a bust up with Fergie in two thousand and seven.

• 1:07:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:06Steven Bartlett?

  When he didn't play you.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:08Steven Bartlett?

  He promised he'd play you, then didn't play you.

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Is uh, this was, and even now, and even I'm going to see him uh, on Saturday. I never ask him the real reason, so it's simple.

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  I've played every cup game, every cup game. I've been named the best left back in the Premier League. It was like, you know, competition with me and Enzer, but I I play more game and anyway.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  The final before the, the day before the final, he did a team, no, he come, we were working with Carlos Carrios. And it was unfortunately, an article on the, on the paper and a big title. The Sun and it was like, Patrice Evra, ex drug dealer, uh, gangster and a first page. Wow, you know what they did? They went to my, where I grew up, they questioned many of my friends. And all of my friends, they say, yes, here, you know, we were fighting, you know, doing this and, you know, and they say, but Patrice is an example for us because he made it.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  So that paper is that telling, oh, I was a gangster and everything, so it was a front page. And the day before the game, Ferguson, we were walking, going to train and he say, ah, Patrice, ah, we need to talk, you know. So what's the matter, boss? He say, you know, the the Glazer, the owner, they called me and, you know, for the club, for the image of the club, you know, an ex gangster and stuff is, you know, it's no good, I think I won't play you tomorrow. I was like, but boss, he, no, I'm joking. And he was Carlos, I took care, he was, oh, I got him, you know, he was scared. No, no, don't worry.

• 1:08:58Speaker 00

  We train the first eleven on the team. Everything perfect. The day of the game in the morning, I like to put music. I remember Ferguson allowed you also to order your breakfast in the room. You don't need to go downstairs and dancing. Ta ta ta. So, okay, I think it's the room service. Open the door. Sir Alex Ferguson. He said, "Son, uh, I'm gonna put you in the bench. Hands are gonna start. But you know what? I know you're gonna win the game for us. You know, it's really warm, Wembley. You're gonna come in and need some speed and for us, you're gonna win the game. I know you disappoint. I said, "I am very disappointed."

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  He said, "I know, I know, son, but trust me." And he tapped, he left. So, I remember after ten minutes, he asked me to warm up. We weren't playing well. I warmed up for eighty minutes. It was even like the smoking, like I was like... First of all, I was really angry and I was like running like crazy mad because I needed like, you know, the all this frustration I asked to come out. We lost one nil against Chelsea. I remember we went to take the medal. I take it, I throw it on the grass. Ferguson tried to shake my hand. I didn't shake his hand. So, first, first time in my life, I do respect him. Uh, my agent was there. "Why you don't play?" I said, "Go to us, to your manager." People from Manchester. "Are you injured, Patrice?"

• 1:10:23Speaker 00

  "No." "Go to us, to your manager." I say to my agent, "I, I need to go. I don't wanna play for Man United anymore. Find me a club." "No, Patrice, I need to go. I don't wanna play for Man United anymore." Uh, it was the party. Everyone was like with the family and stuff. I wasn't smiling and uh, three days later, Ferguson called me and he say, "Patrice, I'm sorry, I should have played you. Uh, I hope you're not too upset and uh, and because he told me that, I automatically forgive him, but I still don't know the reasons, especially what's happening in the paper and the joke.

• 1:11:03Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:04Speaker 00

  And I never asked him the reason. But yeah, I was uh, that's, that's it. That's what I was, I don't wanna play for United anymore."

• 1:11:11Steven Bartlett?

  Are you gonna ask him?

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  No, because I'm someone, you know, I know he see a lot of my interview and my stuff and even watch my videos. So maybe he's going to tell me one day, but I don't ask, I don't ask people. I I just like to people, they are free. If they wanna say something about something, they just tell me. I don't like to ask people.

• 1:11:32Steven Bartlett?

  Does it bother you?

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  Uh, when I talk about it, just think like, yeah, but not really, because then the rest of my career for United and the love I've got for this man. You know, his history. So, no, but it's just like, again, my past.

• 1:11:48Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:49Speaker 00

  Maybe my past cost me, you know, my starting eleven, but.

• 1:11:54Steven Bartlett?

  Forgiveness, the topic of forgiveness. Um, Suarez, Suarez, um. In an altercation on the pitch, he called you Negrito. I was watching that game, which is a offensive word for a black person. That incident was a um, was a bit of a media circus, wasn't it?

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I will never expect that because.

• 1:12:24Speaker 00

  Uh, so like you say, and he called me, and unfortunately for him, I speak Spanish. And I say, what did you say? And he said again, the N word. And he said, anyway, I don't speak with uh, any N, the N word. So I remember in that time, I was like, this is, this is when I was like also proud of myself because I was talking to myself. Should I punch him? But Patrice, this is a Liverpool Manchester. All the kids are watching this game. Uh, people won't understand. So I promise you this, I had an amazing first half. The second half, I was just like, it was a process, talking to myself, don't do it.

• 1:13:07Speaker 00

  You know, when you have like a devil and an angel, don't do it, do it, don't do it, do it, all the game. I wasn't in the game. And I play okay, it was fine, we draw. And after the game, I just sat and Ferguson saw me and he was like, Patrice, what's the matter? You know, he had a good game. What's the matter? I say, no, David de Gea, I say, Suarez called him a negrito. I was like, Patrice, that's cool. Take me, we went to the ref, the referee. We tell him, he take note. But by the way, even in the, on the pitch, I said to the referee, did you hear what he just say? He called me with the N word. Come on, Patrice, he called me with the N word. Play, play, play. We're gonna deal with that later.

• 1:13:50Speaker 00

  Because I forget to always mention that. And it's a long time and every interview, I never say that. And that referee, we're gonna deal with that later. Really? He called you that? Yes, he did. Okay. So we went to the official, we tell, he say, yeah, yeah, Patrice told me about that. So he was aware. So Ferguson like killing.

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  So you were aware and why you didn't send him off?

• 1:14:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay, we're gonna deal with that and, you know, to the English Federation. So the next day, boom, front page. Suarez, you know, racially abused Patrice Evra. I didn't expect that. So.

• 1:14:27Speaker 00

  I don't know, or possible, I start to become a liar. I start to become, people in jail, in Liverpool send many letter of they're going to kill me when they're gonna come out of jail. People start following me with my car. I had for three months, twenty four hours like security, but can I be honest with you? My brothers, my family, they were like scared, but I was like, guys, we don't need that because I'm from the streets. So come on, we don't need protection. But the threat were real. That's why my United, the separate trees. Even if you don't need that, we need. So for, for three months, like twenty four hours and everything, so unbelievable. But the worst part is when we watch a game

• 1:15:11Speaker 00

  with all the player and Ferguson and we saw the Liverpool player came out with that shirt and support Luis Suarez. And the worst part, he was like, he get banned. So it's not like they do it when, before he get the ban. He get banned because after he lie, he say, you know, in my country, we use the word like, I know they use narrow, but no negrito. Negrito is the N word. Narrow is the color. And even I always say to people, you don't have to call me by my color. My mom give me a name. I don't need to be anywhere. So with the camera, they could see with his lips, like he say the N word.

• 1:15:49Speaker 00

  And they support him and he was Kevin Douglas. I remember I hate so much Kevin Douglas to let this happen that day. And the karma, he gets sacked after one month after that game. So, I did a TV show with Jamie Carragher and I promise you, hi Jamie, like, you know. We start talking and he said, Patrice, I just would like to apologize about what's happening nine years ago. What we have done is wrong. I was in shock. So I didn't expect that. I was like, wow, okay. He say, we didn't know, you know, the club tell us to do that and after that I received like letter from the owner of Liverpool.

• 1:16:29Speaker 00

  Emails saying like we most, we saw you more than welcome here and everything. You can feel home. I will never feel home when I go to Liverpool. Thank you for that. But it was so nice and I know many of my friends, they were like, Patrice. Um, you should, you should forgive them. I say, guys, it's never, it's never too late. And I don't have any hate. And I, and I keep saying, I can't call Luis Suarez a racist because I don't know him close enough to call him that way. But in that day, he used some racist word. And it get even worse for him when about the handshake. That's when I was like, okay, it's a disgrace. Because even when I called my mom and my mom said, the way indicate, Patrice, you should forgive.

• 1:17:13Speaker 00

  And I remember that game was one of the most like topic was the handshake. Hmm. It wasn't even Liverpool Manchester. That's when I see like he was bigger than, that, that things was bigger than the game. Hmm. And when I put any did and I was like. You put your hand out, he didn't shake it. And I was like, I'm going to kill him now. I remember that game. I even take a Rio Ferdinand, you can see because I wanted to, to catch Suarez, but he jumped. So I take like Rio Ferdinand. And it's that picture when Rio Ferdinand, you look like he's broken his neck because I wasn't wanting to play the game. I just wanted to kill him. Hmm. And I have one story also. After all those episode, one day I was walking in the Manchester in Deans Gate and.

• 1:18:00Speaker 00

  My brother say, oh, he's Luis Suarez over there. I was with two of my brother. I look at him. I was like, that's it. This is the moment.

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  And he woke and behind him, I saw his kid and his wife. And we, and I turned my back. I was like, if you do something to him, you can't do this in front of his family. So I don't regret it because I think it will end up bad. And I didn't do nothing that day. I saw him when we play against Barcelona with Juventus in the final. I was talking with Neymar, he pass, he come, he shake my hand, say you're okay, I say I'm okay, you're okay. So no beef, but we definitely not going to go in holiday in our life, but yeah. Have you forgiven him? Yeah, but because like I say, that's when now we, I want to talk a little bit about the racism.

• 1:18:55Speaker 00

  And like I said to people, it's about education, no one born as a racist person. And you know, when you, when the football now, they ban people when they have those racist comment or. I don't think this is the solution, because if you ban someone, you put him, I know he's really sensitive, but you put him in a box. You don't resolve the matter. And even that person will even become more racist and feeling more rejected. But where he come from? I've got friend, they're not shame to tell me, Patrice, I've got black friend and everything. But my daughter or my, my son will never be with a black person because my dad or my granddad will never accept it.

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  So that's why I understand, you know, races, you need to fight with your own parents. It's nothing to do is about religion. When it was the Paris attack. Uh, everyone start to blaming the Muslim people, Islam. I did a post, I was on the plane. I say, you know what? And by the way, I grew up as a Catholic, but. If you ask me, what is your best religion right now is to be the best human being I can. I'm not a Catholic, I'm not a Muslim, but I can pray with Jewish people, with Muslim people, Buddha, everything. Because I respect every religion, but now the religion, my religion is to be the best human being I can.

• 1:20:18Speaker 00

  Then I did that post when I say, I think it's not time to, to spread your anger, your, you know. It really should pray for the people we lost. And by the way, I read the Quran, Islam is such a beautiful religion, it's about love and everything, so. I really, and it came from my heart. And I feel like I had to do it. My dad called me. What you doing, you know? You don't know them. They are terrorists and everything. I said, that this is your opinion, but it's not mine. He put the phone down. We didn't speak for two weeks. He called me after two weeks. He said, I'm sorry.

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  Say, wow, you're a man now. You stood to your own opinion.

• 1:21:03Speaker 00

  I say, yes, dad, and I won't change it like you can't because one person do something, then all the people are the same. So that's why I like to give this example, because sometime you have to stand up against your, you know, your own, your own father, even if you scare him. Because those people, the racism doesn't come like because they just become racist, it's because they've been taught. So if we want to change something, it's about the education. You know, and I have enough people pretending they want to fight against the racism. And I will talk about massive like football industry. I give the example of the, that stupid Super League.

• 1:21:43Steven Bartlett?

  Ah, Super League, yeah.

• 1:21:44Speaker 00

  A project, that project didn't even start. We shut down that project in twenty four hours. Ah, I remember I watched on TV, my ex teammate, the pon, they shouldn't the fun, fighting, burning things like. I was like, wow, I was watching, I was like, oh my god. They are so unique, determined. The president of the FIFA, the FIFA, oh, they are snake, those owners and stuff like, wow, we should. But I was like, but why we don't have the same determination? When we talk about racism, especially in football. Players getting abused every single game. But we don't start, so don't pretend.

• 1:22:31Speaker 00

  You wanna do it when you don't. But the real reason, and me I'm straight, and maybe I'm irritated certain person. That typically you are touching their pocket. Races? It's not about money, everyone like, don't care. Play on. You know, like even social media. I'm someone, I am on social media. I don't want any help from Instagram, uh, from Facebook, for everything. Because you can delete your comment, you can like block people, everything. And anyway, when I have racist comment, I will do a nice video when I'm eating a banana and things. Because it really like, when I was seventy years old, people were throwing real banana in my face when I was playing. So it's not like someone behind his computer can affect me, but this is Patrice.

• 1:23:15Speaker 00

  Other people, they're gonna read comment about them, they're gonna even suicide. You know, when we're talking about the mental health. So you have to explain me one things. What is about the Covid nineteen? You get the flag straight away.

• 1:23:30Speaker 00

  But when is about the races like? Sometimes you feel like those social media, they just let the, the racist, they spread the races on, on the, and the, on their own platform. So stop pretending. If you wanna do something, let's do it. But I know, until you know money is not involved. Things will difficult to be changed, yeah. Kick the races, they asked me to put the shirts, many time I go to the one, I didn't put that shirt because I don't, it's fake. They, they asked me like to say no to the races in front of the camera, many player respect, no to race. But the player, they don't, they don't even care because they just, uh, they tell them to say that. Come. Teach to people. Races, saying those word, now you, I say silence is a crime.

• 1:24:14Speaker 00

  Cause people lose their life because of that. You know?

• 1:24:21Steven Bartlett?

  You said your religion was to live a good life.

• 1:24:24Speaker 00

  No, to be the best human being.

• 1:24:26Steven Bartlett?

  To be your best human being you can. Um, how do you define that now?

• 1:24:31Steven Bartlett?

  What does that mean?

• 1:24:32Speaker 00

  It mean to, uh, to be kind to people, to be kind to the universe. Uh, to make the world a better place. Um, to help people.

• 1:24:45Speaker 00

  To, to, like, I'll be honest with you now. And I say that not to make myself looking good. When I do a video and I see a comment, someone say, oh, Patrice, my dad passed away, I watched one of your video and I smile. Thank you. This is more important for me than win the Champions League or the Premier League. Because this touch my heart. You know, like I said, I play football, yeah. But my be, also one of my biggest achievement, and I don't want to talk about it to spread it, but it's when I opened my two shelter in Senegal, more than four hundred kids. And I remember the day when I went there and they were singing for me. Because I give them food and you know, school and everything.

• 1:25:30Speaker 00

  That's when I'm like, ah, now I know why I'm on earth. Not just to kick a ball around. That's it. That's why I say people, they, I'm like an iceberg, you know, I like to use that.

• 1:25:42Speaker 00

  That example, because I think people didn't see. The real Patrice and, you know, many manager, they named me captain of the, you know. I remember the first time like Ferguson say, you're going to be the captain and Rio was still playing gigs and Wayne Rooney, a lot of people. I was like the, the French guys from the street. He's the captain of the biggest club, you know, in the world. But because they know that culture of sharing, leadership, not being selfish, all of that. This is me. And one things that changed because of my woman is I'm taking care of myself now. I also want to be happy. Because before, if the world is happy, if you are happy, this make me happy.

• 1:26:26Speaker 00

  But now Patrice also, sometime he take his time, like I had like. Can you believe in the last two years, I have just one holiday? To tell you like even now, I'm retired, but I'm more busy than when I used to play. But for the first time, I turn my phone off for a week. Harry was just amazing. Cause I don't allow to do that because I've got things to do. I've got people to take care of. For the first time I take care of myself. It was just magic. Like my woman just wanted to lock me down in that island and didn't want me to coming back. And I won't be able to do actually this podcast today. So, so we did it. I come back to reality, but yeah, this is tell you like I just, I, I. It's not just wanna be good.

• 1:27:11Speaker 00

  I just wanna be myself and you know, I never, I had one, one problem is like I still like to fight. So this is like from, from where I grew up. So sometime my woman teach me like, don't use your fist. You know, again, on my book, when I kicked that fan and people compare me to Eric Cantona, but it wasn't my, you know, my goal in Marseille. But it's because this guy say like, stop, you know, like talking like a monkey and anyway, when we go back, we're gonna cut the throat of your kids. And I am a human being. And that's why people forget sometime footballer player. They think we are like robot, but no, we are, we got feeling. When he did that, he came down. So I, I kick him, I get uh eight months ban.

• 1:27:53Speaker 00

  Uh, I think eighty K or fine, I don't remember. So I'm not perfect and I don't wanna be perfect. I wanna be me. Some people, I am an example for them, but I don't want, it's not like I wanna be an example for anyone. I just wanna be me. If I inspire people, then perfect.

• 1:28:14Steven Bartlett?

  You are an iceberg. You're definitely an iceberg, that's for sure. And this book definitely reveals the, the rest of the iceberg that doesn't sit above the water. And as, as someone, as I said, that's watched you on screen for many, many decades and has seen you more recently on, online and as a pundit on TV. I would never have guessed the sort of complexity and backstory that, um, that you have. And you're sort of, you know, it's an interesting word to use, but you're. Your vulnerability, let's say, in sharing all of that, I think will do more good than you'll ever realise, because it it opens the door for other people to share. And as we said, it creates a safe space for men, young men, men that come from where you

• 1:28:59Steven Bartlett?

  come from, men like me, to also share. And in sharing, we liberate ourselves. That tends to be what happens. And then we we are, we have permission to live a more free life because because of that. So I want to thank you for that. I think that's one of the most amazing things you can do. And you've done that with this book. And on behalf of everybody that has the chance of reading it, and I hope everybody does go and read it, thank you.

• 1:29:23Speaker 00

  No, thanks to you, to having me and to also some emotion, you know, you bring out some emotion I didn't know one, and I did many interview when I'm doing my book tour and question like you asked me today. And it's really, I trust you the way I've been honest and no, thank to you because I'm already feeling better. And that's why I hope like every people and every kids, they have the chance to to read my book. And, you know, if they are like those issue to come out, it's not easy. You know, it's easy for me to tell them, please come out, but trust someone, trust someone and trust me, you is a massive like things I've got in my chest for so many years.

• 1:30:06Speaker 00

  And for me, like I say to my mom travelling and she was just devastated and sometimes she still send me some voice notes, she's crying because she could still don't understand. So don't keep it, don't keep it, tell it to your parents, tell it to your brothers or your sister. I've got 24 brothers and sister and I didn't even tell that to any one of them. So be yourself, enjoy your life, live the present and be good to the universe.

• 1:30:36Steven Bartlett?

  That's a beautiful ending. I have just one more question for you. And this is a question, this is a new tradition we've started, Patrice, where the previous guest on this podcast leaves a question for the next guest. So the previous guest left a question for you and you're going to leave a question for the next guest as well. And I'm going to find out what that question is, because I've not actually read it yet. Okay, here we go.

• 1:31:01Steven Bartlett?

  Name three people, dead or alive, that you would have dinner with tonight if you could.

• 1:31:12Speaker 00

  My mom, my woman.

• 1:31:19Speaker 00

  And you.

• 1:31:22Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, that's a tremendous honour. Why me?

• 1:31:26Speaker 00

  Because, because the way you, many things came out and, and you're an interesting person. And I feel energy and I feel your soul and you're a good soul. And I can see you're doing all of this because you want to make the world a better place. And, you know, when you surrendered around people like you, you just improved. And that's what I wanted, you know, sometime I'm like, don't surrender about negative people. Help them also to understand why they are negative. But your, your energy, you're really curious. I can feel it, you're going deep. You want to understand the reason why, because it's easy to, to did the book I have to. But I wanted someone was able to ask me the reason why.

• 1:32:09Speaker 00

  And that's what I, you know, I can have a conversation and we can have a dinner and we're gonna talk about a lot of things. And I really about the toxic, you know, masculinity.

• 1:32:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17Speaker 00

  So that's why I pick you.

• 1:32:18Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, well, we're gonna organise that dinner. So, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll figure it out, um, for sure. Cause I, I feel the same way. And as I'm still kind of early on that journey of understanding my ego and to- toxic masculinity and how it stands in my way. The more men that I can speak to like yourself that have been on that journey and started to learn lessons, the better it will be for myself selfishly. But hopefully that's, uh, you know, and I think, you know, the, the, the good, I think we've just done talking about that today. And it's funny, cause I, I know some of the people that listen to this and where they listen to it, cause they tag me.

• 1:32:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:32:50Steven Bartlett?

  And they are men that are driving eight hours on a Monday morning, up and down the country in big vans. They are builders on building sites that wanna be entrepreneurs. And just again, as we've done on this podcast, creating that safe space where we can talk about feelings and crying and your emotions and communicate, communicating what's going on in your life. Oh, it's the most important service I think we can do to men. So I hope we can carry on that conversation and I'm gonna be pestering your PA to organise this dinner. Perfect man. Gonna pass you the book to write a question for my next guest, but thank you so much. It's been an absolute honour. Honestly, it's been an absolute honour and you're even more of a role model to me than you have been for the last 20 years and that's been, that's hard to beat. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.