Body Language Mistakes Every Woman Must Avoid To Get Rich (Two Bags Look Cheap!)

Body language expert Vanessa Van Edwards, bestselling author and founder of Science of People, joins Maggie Sellers Reum on Hot Smart Rich to reveal how to own any room, make unforgettable first impressions, master body language, and become instantly more confident in business and life. Vanessa shares how to prepare for intimidating rooms, spot the subtle signs someone is nervous, build trust through body language, and why the first six seconds of any interaction can change everything. She also explains what your appearance communicates before you speak, how to recover from a bad first impression, the fastest ways to create genuine connection, give more memorable answers, and perfect your personal introduction so people never forget you. Whether you're networking, interviewing, pitching, or building your career, this conversation will change how you communicate forever. Conversation by Vanessa Van Edwards is a science-backed guide that teaches you how to master small talk, build instant rapport, and communicate with authentic confidence in any social situation. Pre-order now: https://linkly.link/2nCMM Get unselfish access to insights that will help you own the room. Sign up now https://linkly.link/2jPXJ (00:00) Intro (03:34) How To Read Any Room (06:47) Prepare For Intimidating Rooms (13:43) Signs Someone Is Nervous (17:36) Stop Interrupting Conversations (21:31) Body Language That Builds Trust (24:23) SoFi Ad (25:37) Lululemon Ad (26:38) Essential Business Body Language (31:53) The Six-Second First Impression (32:42) What Your Appearance Communicates (34:40) How To Recover From Bad First Impressions (37:06) The Fastest Way To Connect (39:08) Give More Memorable Answers (41:29) Perfect Your Personal Introduction (44:24) Shopify Ad (45:20) Bilt Ad (46:20) Communication Habits Of Successful People (54:35) How To Build Lasting Friendships Sponsors: SoFi - http://sofi.com/hsrloan Bilt - Sign up at http://Joinbilt.com/HSR Lululemon - http://lululemon.com Shopify - http://Shopify.com/HSR Hot Smart Rich: Your Business & Culture Gossip For ambitious women wanting to own the room, gain power, and build wealth. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hotsmartrich/ Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hotsmartrich Maggie Sellers Reum: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maggiesellersreum/ Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@maggiesellersreum LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sellersmaggie/ Locker: https://www.wantlocker.com/users/maggiesellers ShopMy: https://shopmy.us/maggiesellers Amazon Storefront: https://www.amazon.com/shop/maggiesellers/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Maggie Sellers Reum?

  If you're starting a business, there are certain things that are so fun to think about. Y'all know I love a mood board, so everything that relates to the creative, the name, the brand, the website, the vision board. But then there are the things that make you pause and ask, am I even doing this correctly? Or do I even want to be doing this? Like forming your business, getting the right documents, keeping your personal information private. This is where our sponsor, Northwest Registered Agent, is so helpful. They're a one-stop shop for founders who want to launch and legitimize their business without turning it into a giant admin spiral. They help you form an LLC or a corporation, act as your registered agent, and give you tools like a business address, operating agreement, website, phone number, professional email, and free guides.

• 0:43Maggie Sellers Reum?

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• 1:04Speaker 01

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• 1:33Speaker 02

  The person you are talking to decides everything about you in the first six seconds. Now, in the age of botox, this has gone. But if theoretically we could eyebrow raise, then those micro expressions are really important for your social relationships. Vanessa Van Edwards, I could literally talk to you for hours. I help really smart, talented people who are a little bit awkward get better at communication. For a lot of women, we are taught to look for all the things that are wrong with us. But for men, they are taught this confidence. And they do this. Power pose for the hands. When I do it, I feel like I'm like talking to the moon. Highly successful people invest in their communication. Like, I listen to you, and I'm like, dang, yeah! Because you never know when someone could be your next client, your next hire, your next partner. One thing that is important to know is if someone asks you...

• 2:17Speaker 02

  This is the biggest opportunity we have in our career. And if you are not willing to answer that question, you are missing opportunities. So I have a formula for how I want you to answer that question. We have to, how do you read rooms better? One is you have to remove these questions. How are you? What's up? What do you do? Second approach is the distance between your ear and your shoulder. And the last thing is a rookie mistake that people make, which is,

• 2:43Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Hi, angels. Did you know that subscribing to our channel is free? It doesn't cost you anything. And it is the simplest way for you to support Hot, Smart, Rich and help us grow. So that we can bring you more of the conversations you love. Just hit the subscribe button below and thank you.

• 3:03Maggie Sellers Reum?

  In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart and rich. So let's get into it.

• 3:12Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Vanessa Van Edwards, are you ready to get Hot, Smart, Rich?

• 3:15Speaker 02

  I'm so ready.

• 3:16Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I am so excited that you're here. You're in some bare feet, which is a big deal for people that don't know who you are. So for someone that has just clicked into this conversation, they're not familiar with you. What would you say to them to get them to stay?

• 3:28Speaker 02

  I'm a recovering awkward person and I help really smart, talented, brilliant people who are a little bit awkward get that missing memo on communication. It's how to own the room by reading it, how to walk into a room as yourself. Introverts are not fundamentally broken. They don't have to just pretend to be more outgoing. And so my mission, if you're willing to stay, is to give you some tips to be yourself and be heard.

• 3:52Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You just said something, own the room, which is this whole season's thesis. And it came across really organically as I was sitting across from all of these incredibly successful women, mostly, and men that just have this ability to own the room in such a unique, distinct way. And I wanted to share all of those secrets. But a lot of people struggle with this. Why do you think that that is?

• 4:14Speaker 02

  I think that. If you don't like yourself, it's very hard to feel like you can own a room. And what I mean by that is, I think, at least for me, for a lot of women, is we are taught to look for all the things that are wrong with us. Like, I'm not smart enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not thin enough, my skin isn't young enough, I'm not cool enough. And so, how could we walk into a room and feel like we own it? If in our head, all we're doing is thinking of all the things that we're missing and doing wrong? And so, my mission is, you don't have to be perfect, there is no such thing. But also, what are your micro superpowers? What are your micro strengths? That are what people actually remember you for? That overshadow and overpower all those little things that you think are wrong with you are not right?

• 4:59Speaker 02

  And I think that's the only way. You're never gonna think that you have nothing wrong with you. But if you are able to figure out, okay, I have a couple of things that could make me stand out, that's, I think, how you can own the room.

• 5:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Can I be honest with you about something?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 5:10Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So, I think people think I'm a very confident person, which, in certain situations, I am. And then there are other rooms that I walk into, and I feel so insecure. I can feel that heartbeat, just going crazy. My voice is starting to shake. If I was holding papers, I could tell that it's like shaking. And I think, talking about that is so important, because even that dinner that we hosted, most of those women, all of those women in those rooms, are people that, anyone watching this, looks up to. They have this persona of like, being like, they have it all together, they're so confident. But there are rooms, I'm sure of, that those women also feel the same way that everyone listening to this probably feels. So, when you came to the dinner, how did you read that room in terms of who was there?

• 5:55Speaker 02

  I think every single person there, and I tried to have a one-on-one conversation with every single person. That was my goal, my secret goal that night, was to try to have a one-on-one conversation with every person. I don't know if you felt this way, I felt like every single person felt they didn't belong. They were very welcomed. But every single person was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that I'm here, I'm so awkward, I don't know if I belong, what I'm gonna say. And, we introduced a conversation charter, and I was so happy you did, because I begged you, I was like, please, can we do one? Did you notice that not one single person was like, yeah, I can't wait to answer? Not one. And these are women who make their living online, talking online, answering questions online. And I was floored because not a single woman was like, "I'll go first." Not a single one.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  And that shows us that this is an internal struggle, not an external struggle. It had nothing to do with the catering, or you, or who else was there. Everyone at that table was having an internal battle of, "I don't want to sound stupid." I think a lot of women said this out loud. "I don't know if this is good or not. I don't know if this is interesting or not." Everyone thought they were not interesting. These are women who literally have millions of followers, and every single woman thought that their answer was not interesting enough. And so this is an internal battle. It doesn't matter how many followers you have. It does not matter how much money you have. It doesn't matter what you're wearing. We are still going to have an internal battle of, "Am I worth it? Am I worth listening to? Am I interesting enough?"

• 7:22Speaker 02

  So my read of the room was actually groundbreaking for me in that, "Ah, this is something I have to work out internally. It has nothing to do with my external vanity metrics or numbers," because everyone felt like they didn't belong. Now, by the end of the night, I think everyone felt like they did. And that's the power of a roomful of women, right? Is everyone was held, right? Like, everyone answered, and some people answered more vulnerably than others. But we held each other, right? Like, someone cried, and the table was, like, rallying for her. And she did not have the perfect answer. She had an answer where she was sharing something she didn't know what to do. She was worried and upset and broken. And the table was like, "We got you. You can do this." And so that showed me, like, one, this has nothing to do with anything but yourself

• 8:05Speaker 02

  and your own mental game, and it is a mental game, to get yourself to the place to be like, "I'm interesting enough." But second, if you're in the room of the right people and the right women that catch you, it doesn't matter about being interesting anymore. You can just answer. You can just be.

• 8:20Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Something that you said really intrigues me because I a thousand percent agree with you. And I feel that way. There are rooms where I feel super confident, super ready, super just like, I deserve to be here. And then there are a lot of rooms that I feel the same way. And I'm wondering if that's unique to me? Or if that's unique to specific situations? And how do you know which rooms you're gonna feel like that? And how do you prep for that? And how do you figure out what are the rooms that you need to push yourself in to actually be able to grow as a person? And use that as a learning experience?

• 8:51Speaker 02

  So I, I think it's not just a you thing. By the way, I was gonna ask, did you feel comfortable in the room?

• 8:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Okay, so I, that was the good thing is I think that was contagious. So I do think that there is emotional contagion happening in every room. And we should be talking about it more. So we typically, as humans, catch emotions from the most alpha person in the room. So you are the alpha. You were hosting, right? It was your event. You had curated this beautiful group of women. You came in calm, confident, and excited. I literally like felt your excitement. Like you stood up and kind of introduced someone. You were like, yes! Like I'm so, I could see, did you see the table like take a breath? They were like, oh yeah, oh yeah, excited. Like, does that ever happen to you when you go somewhere and then you're like, oh, oh, this is good. I forgot. Like, I forgot this is supposed to be exciting.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  So the first thing is, I think we have to think about, um, what contagion do we want to bring? Like, do we want to be the alpha contagious person? Right? Do we want to go and be like, you know what? I'm gonna make sure that every single person I interact with feels good and calm. My goal that night was to have one-on-one interaction with every single person and make them feel like they belonged. That was my goal. Cause I knew I was gonna be meeting people that I didn't, didn't know, but I, I was like, I have a feeling everyone's gonna feel scared. Like that scared doesn't do anything for us. So are you gonna be the contagion? Like, are you gonna be the one that's like, I'm gonna spark excitement, or I'm gonna spike confidence? Or do you need to catch someone's calm? Do you need to look for a mentor? Do you need to look for a wing woman? Do you need to look for a partner? That, I think, is a way that we can be, it's an interesting backdoor into confidence.

• 10:24Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You said at the dinner that you own the room by reading it. How do you personally do that? How can I, listening to this, be like, I need to read rooms better? What am I looking for?

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, OK, so, very tactically. I think of this, you know, like sports. I think that we have to think of socializing like an endurance sport, right? If you are going to go into a room and make a first impression over and over again, maybe even pitch your business idea or pitch yourself, that's shooting your shot, right? Like, that's like taking a kick at the goal. Like, we're making sports analogies here, guys, and I'm going to be out of my depth in like, one more analogy, right? But we're kicking the ball to the goal. I know, that's a sports analogy. And then we have to last, right? We have to like, we can't just be like, well, I'm too tired. I'm going to go out now. No, you have to like, make it to the end of the night. OK, so, first is a big mistake that people make. I like to map out rooms, is staying in the start zone. The start zone is wherever you are, wherever room you're in, is right when people enter and they're either taking off their shoes

• 11:18Speaker 02

  or signing in their name tags or just getting started. That is the worst place to stand. And it's the worst place to read the room. And it's a rookie mistake that people make. So when you go into a room, have a target. Like, just like a sport, have a target. Either it's the host, or it's a refreshment, like something that you want in your hand, or it's looking for the most nervous person. I think that's because the best thing that you can do, the gift that we can give, is helping someone else who's more nervous than us and bring them up with you. So I always look for the person who looks the most uncomfortable, looks awkward, and I'm like, that's my person. And then I'm like, hey, I'm so excited you're here. Tell me all about you. Like, I want to give them excitement because I know that that's going to also come back to me

• 12:00Speaker 02

  and we're going to both be in this vulnerable, shared, open, honest space together. So avoid the start zone. That's number one. Number two is, I like to look for the most, the person who needs you the most. I think that Going in to help and be helpful, my mantra in life is aggressively helpful. Like, I will bully you into helping. I will bully you into changing. I will do it. And so that energy, I feel like, is my backdoor into confidence. The next way that you read the room is you look for open feet. And this sounds like a really crazy thing, but when someone's in a really good one-on-one conversation, you actually don't want to be the awkward person breaking it up. Has it ever happened where you're like talking to someone, you're really into it? And usually, your feet are on parallel lines, your hips and body are on parallel lines.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  This is a very closed emotional space. You don't want to break that emotional space. It will be awkward for you. Right? Like, if someone comes in, they're gonna be like, uh, uh, uh. You're looking for people with open body and open feet. I call it croissant feet. Their feet look like a little bit like a croissant, you know? So if a foot is pointed out, it means they are open to the room and they're like, please come help. Please come save us. So if I don't see someone who's nervous, who needs help, I will then look for open croissant feet. Also, like, why not look for croissants? Like, that's a fun way.

• 13:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Easy to remember.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Amazing way to remember it. I'm not, not that I'm ever starting gluten, but if we did, a gluten-free croissant. I've never found one of those, by the way. Have you ever found a gluten-free croissant?

• 13:22Maggie Sellers Reum?

  The best, Chopin in Paris. Yeah. Yeah, you need to go.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  I needed to know that. Okay, so you're looking for a croissant feet. That's the person who is open-minded to meeting someone. So when I walked into your party, there was already little clusters. I saw people who had clearly knew each other that were catching up. No, I'm not gonna disrupt their flow. They're having a great moment. But I am looking for people who are kind of overhead gazing and they're like, help? Or, we don't know what to talk about, right? And then I'm gonna come in, and if you're gonna break into a group, you can always say, you guys all look like you're having so much fun. Can I join? You also can say, oh, my gosh, what brings y'all here? How do you know the host, right? Like, you go in with a very open, positive line. And the last way to read the room, which is what I was really working on that night, is micro-expressions, is reading facial expressions.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  So people, when we're afraid, we tend to be very wide-eyed, like that deer-in-the-headlights look, where the whites of our eyes show. When someone flashes the whites of their eyes at you, it means that their amygdala is firing, that they're feeling very nervous. Now, the more I do that, the more nervous it probably makes you. Right? So I calm my lids down and then I'm back into relaxation. If I am seeing someone deer in the headlights, I know that they're in some sort of fight or flight, and I want to try to calm them down or at least see what made them nervous. Right? Like, when you asked your conversation charter, I was so happy you were the host and I got to sit right next to you because I was watching faces to see who looked the most scared. And then I said, you don't ask them first. Like, give them a minute to think it through. My lovely introverts, like most of my students, are introverts and ambiverts.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  So they are, they can swing into extroversion when they need to, but they really lean towards smaller groups. They internally process more alone time. They need more time to process big questions. So we shared the question and then I said, let's, I read the room. I was like, we got to give our introverts time to think it through and think of their answer, and then we'll go around the circle. And that's, I think, being respectfully reading the room.

• 15:16Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You said something that I can't stop thinking about, which is, how do you spot the most nervous person? What are giveaway signs that someone is incredibly nervous?

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. So there's nonverbal signs, vocal signs, and verbal signs. So nonverbally first is when we get nervous, we tend to take up as little space as possible. This is an evolutionary response. So we shrink our head down. We also, the space between our shoulders and our ears shrinks because we're trying to protect our jugular. We also tightly pin our arms to our side. We might even cross our arms in front of us. So you'll see someone who is doing a lot of this, or they have an object that they're blocking with. So they'll take a purse and they'll hold it in front of their body, or they'll tightly hold their clutch to their side. This is a biological response of trying to take up as little space as possible. Researchers from the University of British Columbia found that athletes across races,

• 16:07Speaker 02

  when they lose a competition, they crumple, they crumple in. They tilt their head toward their chest. They usually have a fist, fist grip. They have a pained expression. This is exactly what very nervous people look like in social situations. They literally look like they're trying to be not noticed. So less space. Tonally, We hear a tightness in the vocal cords. So right now, I'm relaxed. You know, we're chatting, we're having a good time. If I was nervous, my vocal cords would tense a little bit and I would go up in my vocal power. I would also get a little bit of vocal fry. So you would have less volume and intonation. And then if I was really, really nervous, I would go up at the end of my sentences, like I was asking. So when you say, "Hey, it's so nice to meet you."

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Oh, "Hi." So really, "Hi," lots of, less vocal power. That is because without breath and without volume, our vocal cords tighten and that is a signal of anxiety. And it shows that someone is feeling very anxious and nervous. They literally lost their voice. Again, my goal in social situations, and I think that this is really empowering for introverts, is you can actually help other introverts by helping them find their voice. So there's two ways you can do that. Is, one, is you can ask them questions about things they love to talk about. So you can, you know, ask them, you know, "What are you working on that's exciting these days?" Or "Any fun and big projects?" Or you can take the ball in conversation and you can entertain. Introverts love to be entertained, right? I think you're probably really good at this, too.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  It's like, I have stories in my back pocket, always, that I know is gonna delight an introvert. And so sometimes I'll come into a party just like, ready to give them time to just, "Take a deep breath, you're cool, I accept you, I love you." And so, either way, you can, you can go out either way to calm them down.

• 17:52Maggie Sellers Reum?

  One of the things that's so fascinating to me about that, because I am exactly like you, my goal that night was to introduce people that I know could have a phenomenal connection. And like, the way I own the room is by introducing others. Always finding rapport between people, making sure that people feel comfortable. But something that I think maybe other people can relate to, listening to this, is sometimes, as extroverts, you feel like you have to fill the silence. And one of the best pieces of advice that my mom gave me when I was growing up was, "Don't fill the silence just because you feel like you have to be the one talking." And especially having the podcast has actually been really helpful for me to learn that skill of like, there is power in a pause, there is power in giving other people the floor.

• 18:36Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You actually don't need to jump in right away, Maggie, and like, let people sit in silence for a bit. And so I'm wondering how you balance that, that reality of like, making other people feel comfortable, having those stories that you can share. I think that like, people won't remember what you said, but they'll remember how the way that you made them feel. And for me, that has always been filling the silence. So, when you're coaching someone, one of your students, I'm like, what is that equation of how often you're jumping in? And then how often you're actually just like letting things unfold the way that they should?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Hmm, so there's actually research on this. We need turn-taking in conversation. We actually need this. If there's not a back and forth, even if the person is telling an amazing story, if there's not a back and forth, there is an inequality that is felt, and that lack of reciprocity, you cannot have connection from it. So the good news is, is for extroverts, you can take the pressure off in that we actually need the turn-taking to be able to spark connection, and you need to give the ball back in a good way. This doesn't have to be necessarily, you know, pelting them with questions. I like very, very small, like, confetti phrases that you can drop in that gently toss the ball back in an easy way. So if someone mentions something even a little bit exciting or intriguing,

• 19:52Speaker 02

  "Oh my gosh, tell me more. Tell me everything." "What, that gluten-free croissant? Where, when, how?" Right, so like, it doesn't, you don't have to hold the floor. We can be tossing the ball back very, very casually. So that's one thing is, we do want turn-taking. Second, you want to listen for sparks and look for sparks. So when you're in a really good conversation, the other person is doing probably three things. One, it's exactly what you're doing, nodding.

• 20:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Mm-hmm. Apparently I nod too much.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Oh, bobbleheading?

• 20:21Maggie Sellers Reum?

  My team said, "Stop doing this all the time."

• 20:24Speaker 02

  You know what you can do if you bobblehead? So I'm also a recovering bobbleheader. So if you feel yourself bobbleheading too much, just head tilt. You can't do both at the same time.

• 20:32Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Right, so if you're like... Because it's also a warmth cue. So right, we're actually interchanging listening warmth cues. When, human behavior is split up into two main frameworks, warmth and competence. So when we're interacting, I'm trying to gauge, can I trust you? Can I rely on you? The faster you can signal those two things, the more charismatic you are. So your warmth cues are telling me, "Open up to me, trust me." Your competence cues are saying, "You can rely on me, I'm gonna get this done." So nodding is a warmth cue. If you're nodding too much, we can replace it with another warmth cue, which is a head tilt. So that's exposing one ear. So, for example, if I were, to give you bad news, it looks better if I give a head tilt, so let me give you bad news. "I'm sorry, I can't do this." Versus, "I'm sorry, I can't do this."

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Like, even that head tilt in me...

• 21:20Maggie Sellers Reum?

  That is shocking.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  That is shockingly different. I know. Micro cues, right? So very small signals have big impact. So what happens is if I'm delivered to you straight on, like, no head movement, I'm sorry, I can't do this. You see no warmth. So your body's like, can't trust, can't trust, can't trust. Right? Like warmth is a fundamental aspect of human behavior. But the moment I tilt my head to the side, I'm actually exposing my ear, which means I'm trying to hear you better. It all of a sudden opens up connection to, this is a discussion. I'm here for you. I want to, I want you to be able to trust me with this. So when I say, I'm sorry, I just can't do this. You feel like, oh, but the connection is still open and we can talk it through. Very subtle, but very powerful. So your head nodding is great. Your head movement is very warm.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  So that's the first thing that we do when we're listening well. The second thing is an eyebrow raise. Now, in the age of Botox, it's, this has gone. This, but if theoretically we could eyebrow raise, that is a very high warmth cue. We raise our eyebrows up. We change, we get our eyebrows out of the way so we can see more. So if someone raises their eyebrows up, we go, oh, they're really interested. That's another way to be like, oh, they said something great. If they're leaning in, so leaning in is a pre-activation cue. When I lean, we activate the five sentences. I could smell you better. I could taste you better. I could touch you better. I could hear you better. I could smell you. I forgot the last one. The last one or the last five cents, fifth sentence. So I'm, it's pre-activation. If I'm talking and someone goes, what? No way. Right?

• 22:48Speaker 02

  Like, you just know that I got activated in a way. That's a topic you want to double down on. So for extroverts, if you see head nodding, tilting, eyebrow raise, or leaning in, that's something that they want to hear about or talk about more. And that's where you want to double down.

• 23:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Can I ask you something very tactical about men versus women then? Because I think you even said it, the Botox conversation. Although I think 25% of Botox is now being done by men. So that's growing. But specifically with hair.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And earrings and like little things that women can be doing. What is distracting for people? And what is actually elevating your warmth and competence cues for a woman listening to this?

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for asking. Our ornaments, so when we talk about all these signals. So we're sending warmth and competence. That happens in four main channels. First, the words we use. The types of words you use signal your warmth and competence. If warm people use words like yay, fab, whoop, wow.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  We love emojis and exclamation points, highly warm, but confident people use totally different types of words. They love get it done words, graphs, charts, bullet points. They literally speak differently. The second channel is our body language. So our facial expressions, my gestures, how I'm moving my body through space. I actually took off my shoes today on purpose. I did because I wanted more warmth. So I'm always in heels or boots, always, always. But I was like, no, like Maggie is a peer, you know? Like the ladies listening, we could be friends. We could be friends. So I'm like, a warmth cue is literally taking off my shoes. Thank goodness my toes are done, right? So that's a warmth cue. That's body language, body language and ornaments. The third one is vocal. So how I say my words, that also changes things.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Like, for example, if I were to be giving my interview in this tone of voice. Now, when I speak to my daughters, I'm usually much more up here. And this feels very natural to me, but you would treat me very differently if I was answering questions like this, right? You would think of me differently. You would approach me differently. You'd probably hug me longer. You would nod differently. But when I'm speaking to my daughters, this is how I speak. So your tone also affects a lot of that. And the last one is ornaments. So our jewelry, our hair. Here's what you have to remember. Self-touch can be perceived two ways. It can be perceived as nervousness or it can be perceived as flirtation. So if you don't want to do either of those things, you should not self-touch in any way.

• 25:06Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And what does that mean?

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Self-touch is fixing our hair, fixing our earrings, tucking our hair, tucking our clothes, even wringing our hands, playing with our bracelets. Like, you know, I wore silent bracelets today. I did not wear bangles because I knew that they can't clank, clank, clank, clank, clank, clank. And that, especially for men, is very distracting and it takes away from your competence. Even though it has nothing to do with competence. In fact, having an expensive bangle could be perceived as more competent. That distraction is almost like an audible self-touch, right? It's like you're hearing it. So anytime you are self-touching, it's going to read as you are nervous or do you like me? So in a business context, I do not want you self-touching at all. Your hair, your jewelry, your clothing should be able to live as they are,

• 25:51Speaker 02

  especially if all eyes are on you: presentations, podcasts, interviews, pitches.

• 25:56Speaker 01

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• 26:26Speaker 03

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• 26:56Maggie Sellers Reum?

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• 27:40Maggie Sellers Reum?

  There's also no penalties for paying off your loan early. If you're managing cash flow, investing in growth, or giving your business more flexibility, SoFi can help you access the capital you need so you can stay focused on running your business. Visit sofi.com/hsrloan to learn more and see if the SoFi Small Business Loan is right for your business. That's sofi.com/hsrloan.

• 28:09Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I'm in my luteal phase. We all know that point in our cycle where our body is basically like, "Please do not make this any harder than it needs to be." But during that time, I still want to move my body. I want to go for a walk, I want to get outside, maybe stretch, but I am not forcing a high-intensity workout when my body is asking for something kinder and softer. And that is where Lululemon just gets it so right. And their Groove Relaxed Cinch Pant is exactly the kind of thing I want to wear on those days. It has this oversized, relaxed fit, so there's actually space for your body to move and breathe. Nothing feels too tight or restrictive. It's perfect for that lower-impact movement. It's made with their Nululemon fabric and has a super-soft, barely-there feeling.

• 28:53Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I only just learned that when Lululemon does colors, they do it with limited drops, and they sell out so much faster than I realized. Lululemon offers free returns, too, so there's never a risk if you decide to change your mind. So head to lululemon.com to get your hands on their Groove Relaxed Cinch Pant. For women specifically, I think as I've gotten older and you realize just the amount that we are doing to keep it together all day, every day, like, we need to simplify this for the women that are listening, of like, what are the cues that are the most important when they're showing up in a business setting? Let's start with that first. What are the things that are not as important for them? But it's like, if you can't work on decision-making for these today, it is okay, that can be in the future.

• 29:38Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And then we can go into the other areas of our life, but let's really start with that business.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Okay, so first, there are 97 cues to choose from. So you have a lot of choice here. You want to start with the cues that feel most natural to you. The last thing I want you to do is be inauthentic, right? And if there are cues, like, for example, one of the cues I teach is a staple cue, which is when you touch the tips of your fingers together. This is a very, it was rated as the most charismatic hand gesture. It's like a power pose for the hands. I feel a little silly doing it, to be honest with you. It's actually on my book cover, which is so funny. I did that frickin' photo shoot, and I took one picture with the staple. My publisher was like, "That's the one." And I was like, "What?" Which is so funny, because it's like, I actually am like, like, when I do it, I feel like I'm like, talking to the moon, like, a little bit. But some people love it. So that, for me, is not a cue that I want to do, right?

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Like, so you have 97 cues to choose from. And luckily, women especially, are already super-good at this. Like you are, we are so dynamic. We are so like chameleons. For example, you know, we have a, my cousin and your mutual friend, Sam.

• 30:40Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Sam Cox, we love you.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Sam, okay, so my cousin, we didn't even know we had this connection until like today. So Sam went on Shark Tank, right? Sam on Shark Tank is very different than Sam hanging out by the pool. On purpose, women know this. We know that if we have to go on Shark Tank and pitch our business, we're going to dial up the competence and the warmth at first, right? So we are already doing this. I want us to be purposeful with it. So first, your first six seconds. This is the most important aspect of any interaction, especially high stakes. All my, my women who are leading businesses, hiring, negotiating, raising VC funds, the first six seconds are everything. In fact, I would even go as far to say you're,

• 31:24Speaker 02

  the person you are pitching to decides everything about you in the first six seconds and the rest of the meeting is them just justifying that opinion. So your first six seconds need to be very purposeful. The moment someone first sees you is when your first impression starts. It's not the moment you start talking. Let's look at Shark Tank, for example. I like to watch just the entrance on Shark Tank and I can almost always predict if that entrepreneur is going to get a pitch. Because as they walk down the hallway and they have their first word, "Hi sharks, warning sharks", that tells them everything. One, did they take up space while they walked, right? It's like, were they hunched over, taking up as little space as possible? Did they show their palm? We love a palm, especially in the first six seconds. So whenever I hop on video, hop on camera, walk into a room,

• 32:08Speaker 02

  when I'm doing any kind of high stakes, "Warning, good to see everyone. Thank you so much for having me." It's actually biological. We like to see an open palm because it shows we're not hiding anything.

• 32:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Is this why Taylor Swift always does performances like this?

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Constant. I think she actually is so naturally charismatic that she doesn't even realize why it works. She just knows it works. But that is why you're constantly very highly charismatic people. They're always constantly palm up. And that is because, you know, think about, you know, caveman days. If you can't see someone's hands, like if I were to do the entire interview with my hands, but no. My trust immediately goes down. So if I have my hands, women do this, they tuck their hands into their legs. I'm like, no. Especially in the first six seconds. Or they use chairs without armrests. I'm like, no. Because an armrest makes me take up more space, right? Like even having the pillow here helps.

• 32:56Maggie Sellers Reum?

  By the way, your arm looks skinnier if your arm's out.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Obviously, obviously, exactly. You've got to have that out, like pop it out, yes. For many reasons, we should use armrests. So, um, palm, taking up space, especially this distance. My favorite distance is the distance between your ear and your shoulder. We want to maximize this as much as possible. It actually makes you look more competent and confident. Then your very first word, I don't care what the rest of your intonation is. I want it to be in the lowest end of your natural range. Listen to the difference. Morning, morning. Who do you want to listen to?

• 33:27Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Second one.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely. We get to be purposeful with this, right? So if I don't want to speak up as much in a meeting, my high might be, morning. Right, like my flavor that day is like, haven't had my coffee? Don't want to talk first. So if I come in with like, morning, right? I don't want, so we can be intentional with this, right? We're already very good with this. Um, the, the, so hands, um, space you take up, intuition. Do not hold your breath on your first word. This is the biggest mistake I see women make. They go, hi, good to see you. Or they answer the phone, hello? Do not hold your breath and speak at the top of your breath.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  It makes you sound little, it makes you sound naive, and it gives away all your competence. I don't care what you say next, but speak on the out breath. So, morning, hello, good to see you. So don't hold your breath and go really high. If you nail those first six seconds, everything else is easier. Those are the cues that matter the most.

• 34:27Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So you said the first six seconds, but people are making this impression about you before you even say anything. What are people judging before you even speak in that first six seconds?

• 34:37Speaker 02

  They're trying to decide, can I trust you and can I rely on you? Right, like. Warmth and competence makes up 82% of our impressions of people. 82%. So you can practice the most impressive stories, the funniest stories, the best numbers. And I have a lot of women who go into pitches and they're like, I had the perfect presentation. I'm like, great, show me your stage entrance. They're like, what? And they come on and they're holding a bunch of things, or they're not sure what to do, they don't know where to plant, or their pacing. And I'm like, it doesn't even matter what's in your pitch and presentation. I've already decided if I can trust you and I can rely on you. So we're trying to answer those two questions. Can I trust you? Can I rely on you? And then everything else backs that up. That's what we're trying to decide in those first six seconds.

• 35:15Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And is that being decided by what you're wearing? The way that you carry yourself? If you have multiple bags? What are people actually looking at to decide if they can trust you and if they can rely on you?

• 35:26Speaker 02

  All of those things. Unfortunately, all of the things, but fortunately, all those things. Right? So everyone can't have the same cues, otherwise we'd look robotic. So there is some research that shows that one bag is ideal. So we don't like multiple bags, which is like sort of a silly thing, but that sort of shows that you're put together. Comfortable in your clothes is another thing that's hard to measure, but I think people know what I mean. If you're in shoes that are uncomfortable, that actually ricochets through your entire body. It ricochets through your face. I actually did an interview one time with a woman who was so competent. It was going so well, but occasionally she would make these very weird micro-expressions. And I was like, you know, I'm just gonna ignore it. I'm gonna bring her back. The second interview, I was like, she was so relaxed and great. And I was like, hey, your first interview, were you nervous to meet me?

• 36:08Speaker 02

  And she was like, oh, my gosh, I was wearing my roommate's heels and they hurt so bad. And every time I like moved my feet, they would like pinch and I had blisters. And I was like, so ever since then, I'm like, you have to be comfortable in your clothes. One of the reasons why even like I changed today is I was like, I think I'm gonna wanna sit like Maggie. Also, I like to mirror you. Like, mirroring is next level. So we talk about cues. Mirroring is a way to show nonverbal respect. So when we are sitting casually, and whenever I watch your interviews, you're sitting casually. I was in a beautiful, but very formal silk pink dress earlier. And I was like, I'm not gonna be able to relax like Maggie. And I wanna be on the same page as her. I want you to feel comfortable. I want the listeners to feel comfortable. And so mirroring and matching. Ornaments and clothes, mirroring and matching non-verbally.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  Like, I'm nodding more with you than I would with, like, Stephen Bartlett. Like, I nod way less with him, right? I have more body movement with you because you're also moving. And also, that feels natural to me. I also think that I'm matching your tone of voice. Like, I think our tone is actually the same right now by accident. That's an accidental cue. So the more we can mirror and match also, the better.

• 37:12Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Let's say you don't nail the first six seconds. Can you recover?

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Yes, you can recover. In the same interaction or second interaction?

• 37:24Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Same interaction.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  OK, so first, forget it, move on. Like, don't let that be baggage for you. Like, social overthinking, it reads. If you're socially overthinking, oh, my gosh, I messed up that first impression. It is going to read on your face, your body, and your voice. So forget it, like, literally delete it, right? It cannot affect you anymore. Do not let it make you negatively contagious. What's going to convince someone next? High, credible competence, amazing data, amazing metrics, amazing numbers, amazing credentials. Right? Like, we can be blown away. In our brain, we have rules for this, right? Like, in our brain, we might see someone who is really awkward but smart and go, well, makes sense. Like, we recognize that. So, fine, blow them away with your insane competence.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Or insane warmth, vulnerability, a share, an emotional story that's surprising. We also have a rule for this. If someone made a bad first impression, but then they share an incredibly vulnerable story about themselves, we're like, oh, OK, makes sense. So be the exception to the rule. We do have exceptions to the rule. They're more rare. But you have to make sure that, OK, if you did not nail that first six seconds, or worse, you had a bad interaction on a video call or a phone call first, be the exception to the rule with blow them out with competence, show up and know your stuff, and blow them away with your cred. Or blow them away with warmth, raw, honest vulnerability, emotional stories that shock and delight and surprise them.

• 38:51Maggie Sellers Reum?

  How important is it for you to be likable versus being yourself to get what you want?

• 38:58Speaker 02

  I think you always have to be yourself. I think it's impossible to be likable inauthentically for a very long time. You can do it for a little, like you may be able to trick someone in a reel. You may be able to trick someone in like a very short meeting. But there's no way that you cannot be yourself and be liked for the long term. First of all, it's exhausting, right? Have you ever tried to not be yourself to be something that someone wants out of you? Like, it's exhausting. Especially if you're an ambivert, like, I can't fake it. Like, if I'm gonna fake it, I'm gonna be found out. And I'm gonna be like, this won't last. So I think it's always more important to be yourself. And if that means people don't like you for it, they're not your people. Right? Like, they're not your people.

• 39:38Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What will get someone to like you more? Is it body language or is it being a great conversationalist?

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Being a great conversationalist.

• 39:45Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So how do you do that?

• 39:48Speaker 02

  Being a great conversationalist, the mistake that we make is trying to be impressive. Right? So we think, I have to ask really hard-hitting questions. I have to have really impressive, funny stories. And actually, that tends to create distance in conversation. Have you ever had this where you're with someone and they're like, performing for you? And you're like, this is hilarious, but like, I don't feel a connection. And so I think that being a great conversationalist is actually finding, I call them like me-too moments. Like, the more we can be like, gluten-free croissants, girl. Right? Like, that's like a moment of connection. Or like, we can be like, oh, bare feet, thank goodness. Or we can be like, oh, my gosh, isn't it so hard to try to adjust yourself to be likable? So I think that it's actually trying to find with someone,

• 40:32Speaker 02

  what are all the things that we can celebrate together? Or be vulnerable together? Or even shared pain points together? Me-too moments are where connection happens. And I think that that is the most likable thing you can do. Whether it's good or bad, you're sharing. That builds bridges.

• 40:45Maggie Sellers Reum?

  One of my least favorite things that people ask me when I walk in anywhere is, "And what do you do?" What are those common phrases that people can pull out and be like, "I'm gonna ask these two or three things instead of what you do."

• 40:58Speaker 02

  So we wanna pick questions that are still casual, still approachable, but not too deep. So I like a swap. Not "how are you?" Not "what do you do?" What do you like to do? Just adding the word "like," what do you like to do? Or, not "what do you do?" Working on anything exciting these days? Like, even if I didn't know you and didn't know what you did, if I said to you, "Working on anything exciting these days?" You could tell me what you're working on, or you could choose something totally different. I also like a question that I heard that I use all the time is, "How's the empire?" Because no matter what someone does, their world is their empire. And they will answer that in all kinds of unique and interesting ways. So, "How's the empire?" "What do you like to do?" "Working on anything exciting?"

• 41:42Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And then what about the answer-side swaps?

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Okay, so this takes a little bit of planning. I like to break scripts with "how are you?" So when somebody asks me, "How are you?" I like to, like, wake up the conversation a little bit with like, a little bit of surprise. So I like to give someone a number. So I might be like, "Hmm, 3 out of 10 on the scale, only my coffee." And they're like, "3 out of 3?" "What? 3 out of 10?" Like, just like, and I'm like, "What's your number?" And like that, it totally changes the game. They usually laugh.

• 42:10Maggie Sellers Reum?

  That was so flirty.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  It was so flirty?

• 42:11Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah!

• 42:12Speaker 02

  No, flirty would've been like, "I'm an 8, girl." That would've been flirty. A 3 is not flirty.

• 42:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  No, the way you said, "What's your number?"

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Okay, well, like, good. I flirt with everyone, that's good.

• 42:22Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I like it!

• 42:23Speaker 02

  Okay, so you can answer with a number. I also think you can answer honestly here. Like, yes, honesty. I think we forget that we don't have to be on social scripts. If someone asks you, "How are you?" And you're like, "Good, but busy." But actually, you're losing your mind and you're having a really hard day? Like, be honest. I think it's okay to be like, "It's been a doozy of a week. Ask me later today." Or, you know what? "It's been a rough one this morning. My 7-year-old decided not to go to school." Right? Like, I think we can answer honestly, so comfortably. But if you're having a bad day, share you're having a bad day. You could take less than 10 words. If you're having the best day ever, say, "You know what?

• 43:08Speaker 02

  It's a fantastic day. Thanks for asking." Right? I think we forget that we can be honest with these answers. What do you do is another one. I also don't like this one. I am developing this for my next book, so I have a formula for how I want you to answer that question. I actually think it's the biggest opportunity we have in our career. Every single time, you're going to be asked this question thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of times in your lifetime. You should be nailing the answer to this question every time. If you are not nailing the answer to that question, you are missing opportunities. Because you never know when someone asking could be your next client, your next hire, your next partner, your next referral. You don't know who you're speaking to, so you want to make sure that you're nailing it.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  And it's really important to have a very specific way to answer it in a way that hooks people in, but also is truthful. So I'm working on it.

• 43:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You can't reveal what the equation would be.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Not yet.

• 44:00Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Can you give us one thing that we can say? When someone asks us, what do we do to nail that opportunity and don't let it go to waste? What can people do that feel like they're in that building phase? It's they don't have their empire yet.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 44:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What are they saying to communicate something bigger than what it feels like they're doing right now?

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Okay, so here is, I hope that you'll workshop this log line. I want you to workshop it. And it does take some like trial and error, right? This is a very important opportunity that you have. What is the question that you want someone to ask you next? That is actually how you're going to build your elevator pitch. Meaning, when you said, I just have a podcast, or I have a podcast, what was the question people usually asked you?

• 44:41Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What's it called?

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Right. So that doesn't get you anywhere, it's a dead end. Then you can say, oh, it's called Hot, Smart, Rich. Well, what is that? It creates like a very negative no ladder, right? Like a very like, meh, meh, and a meh, oh, uh, uh, uh. Like, I don't like conversations that sound like that. Hmm, uh, hmm, uh, uh. Right? Like, that's a bad interaction, it's called a no ladder, right? What you want to think is, what do I want to talk about next? What is the question that I want to give their brain to ask? So for example, I like to say, I'm a bestselling author. Because I want them to ask me, what are your books about? Because that's my favorite topic, right? So what is the question that you want them to ask? And then reverse engineer your answer to that. And by the way, if you're in transition or pivoting, we love this.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  This is the ultimate hero story. If you are transitioning, say, you know, by day, I'm a blank, but I'm moonlighting as a blank. You know, I'm in transition. I've been doing this for 10 years, but I have big dreams too. Right? Like, you can give someone the hero's journey. My favorite kind of elevator pitch answer, my favorite kind of answer is when you tell someone your hero's journey. A hero's journey is, I had a challenge or a problem, or I was started somewhere. I learned something, I did something, I tried something, and I'm either going here or I already am here. Right? Like, my logline, I'm a recovering awkward person. I write books. People see right there my hero's journey. Or I'm a recovering awkward person and I write books for smart awkward people.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  People can literally see the journey that I took, right? Like, I started not knowing how to connect and communicate with people. I had to learn how to do it now, I communicate with it. So what is the hero's journey that you can give someone else so they want to buy into it? We create raving fans or amazing friends when they are on the journey with you. And so I think a mistake that we make is we feel like it has to be perfectly polished. Like, I don't like the loglines that create no questions. Right? Like, the answers to create no questions is like, I'm a fifth grade teacher. What is the other person gonna do with that? Right? Or, oh, I'm just in marketing. What is someone gonna do with that? Oh, I'm starting a nonprofit. You have to give them the question that you want them to ask and also take them on the journey with you.

• 46:58Maggie Sellers Reum?

  There is no better feeling as an entrepreneur than hearing that sound. Am I right? Especially when you're in the depths of setting up and building a business. Shopify's cha-ching is a reminder that you're on the same entrepreneurial journey as everyone else who's building something. And when you're in the early phase of starting something, having a platform with tools that help you streamline any part of your setup and backend is a huge unlock. You get everything in one place. Your inventory, payments, shipping, orders, and reporting. All of it. And whether you want to sell online or in person, it has everything you could need to make that happen. It also grows with you, whatever stage your business is at.

• 47:39Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So if you haven't already, sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com/HSR and get ready to hear. That's Shopify.com slash HSR. There are certain expenses in life that are so automatic, you never really think about them. For example, rent and mortgage payments. The same amount goes out every month and you don't give it a second thought, but you should. Think about this, if you're already making this big payment every month and you could get something back for it, why would you not? And this is exactly what our sponsor, Built, does. Whether you rent or own, Built lets you earn points every time you make rent or mortgage payments.

• 48:21Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Then you can put those points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases, and more. And getting started is really easy. You download the Built app, link your credit or debit card, then use Built's Neighborhood Concierge, which can sort restaurant reservations for you or get you booked into fitness classes. And quite a lot more. To download the Built app and join the membership for where you live, head to joinbilt.com slash HSR. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash HSR. What are the other things that separates highly successful people from a communication, leadership, body language perspective than people that will just never get there?

• 49:04Speaker 02

  I've spent the last two decades studying highly charismatic people. And highly charismatic people are typically very successful people. So that's the first thing to realize is that highly successful people invest in their communication. Highly successful people know that whatever their technical skill is, whether that's building a business or selling a product, if they are very, very good with people, that's going to help whatever their project is. Being a very effective communicator is already a baseline for success. The second thing is, I think that highly successful people are ruthless about what they are good at and what they are bad at. And I've noticed that highly effective people are constantly labeling themselves out loud and saying what they are very good at. And this sort of weirdly comes back to them, it serves them. So they'll say things like, even in the boardroom, like I'll hear people say, you know,

• 49:49Speaker 02

  "I'm a wizard with spreadsheets, so I figured out." Or "I am so analytical, that is my superpower." Or "I am super organized, I'm your girl four." Like self-labeling is actually a very powerful thing that I don't think enough people do. And highly successful people are very good at this. They're almost giving other people the language they want people to use for them. So I would ask yourself, what do you wish people were saying about you? And I kind of asked you that earlier. I think everyone should know their answer to this question, and you should be using it in your own language. Right? What do you want people, your boss, your colleague, and investor to say about you behind your back? Like, what's the best thing they could say about you? Are you saying that about yourself? In your bio, in your elevator pitch, when you're talking about yourself?

• 50:34Speaker 02

  The kind of problems and solutions that we publicly claim, like saying, like, "I love to solve this problem," or "I want to take on this project," shapes how people think and feel about you. And I think successful people are very good at naming their power and naming the problem, and then claiming it.

• 50:51Maggie Sellers Reum?

  One of the questions I actually get asked the most from this community is women that have relocated themselves to a new city. They're in their 20s, they're in their 30s. They don't have the family commitments yet. They don't have their kids. They're actually trying to make friends.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And they're met with women like me, who have a social network, who can barely keep it together. I can barely respond to my friends. I actually don't have time for new friends.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:13Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And so a lot of the questions that I'm getting is, well, how do I make friends when I'm going into an environment and people already have their circles? They already have their connections. How are those women getting a community together, finding their people?

• 51:27Speaker 02

  OK, I could talk about this all day, because I love it, and I think it's so important. So first, just mechanically, I just want to talk about a logistics thing. Psychologically, you're better off front-loading hours. What I mean by this is a coffee every three weeks for one hour, it will not build a long friendship. Even if you put in 200 hours of that, it's the same thing, and it's too spread out. If you think someone could be a potential friend, you're actually better off hanging out a lot in the first two weeks and front-loading as many hours as possible. What I mean is, this is very counter, and you're welcome to send in this episode and be like, "Look, Vanessa said, I really like you. We got to front-load our hours." If you like someone, like you meet them at a yoga class, and you're like, "Hey, do you want to grab lunch later?" And that goes well. "Do you want to go on a hike tomorrow morning?"

• 52:12Speaker 02

  If that goes well. You know, I was sitting up, like, driving up to LA this weekend to do this vintage shop. Do you want to come with me? Like get the reps in quick because one you will learn if they're your person faster. I don't know about you, but I've had sometimes very slow burn starts of friendships where it takes me months to figure out like we're not actually not that similar or we're not that aligned. I would much rather front stack to figure out, are we, are we doing this thing? Like, do we have a good match? It's just like dating, right? Like the more you do in varied contexts, the more you're going to figure out, do you have the same core values? Do you have fun together? Can they ride with you? Like I, in Austin, I would sometimes take women to this really, really hippie dippy like cafeteria just to see how they would do with me with it.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Cause it was like really weird and like the women who could laugh at it with me, I was like, we're going to get along really well. So like, what are the contexts that you could take them to to be like, hey, are we on the same vibe? Like, are we on the same page? And front load, front stack, don't spread it out over two or three weeks. Try to do as many as possible early. That's just logistically speaking, that actually works better to build friendships quickly. Next, I think the only way to fit into people's busy schedules, so if you're coming to a new place, which is literally just happened to me, so I'm in this with you. It's very hard to create new time blocks. It's hard to look at a busy person and be like, we should hang out because you're like, I don't got time to hang out. Like, when would we even do it? No, you want to ask, where are you already hanging out?

• 53:37Speaker 02

  When do you always go to that yoga class? When are you always doing that thing? Do you have any weekly or monthly traditions that you do? Hey, like, do you do a big grocery shop and food prep on Sunday? Great, let's do it together. What are people already doing in their schedule and how can you lock into that? So I love women who are on the same workout routine as me. I do walk and talks. So walk and talks are like, you know, whenever I'm walking, I do, I walk at almost the same time every day. And I have friends that also walk at that same time. Super easy. Either I call them or they're with me. So are there ways you can fit into their schedule that already exists? And then lastly, this is weird, but I think you want to look for other new people too. Wherever you moved, there are other people who just moved too.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Now, they might not be your exact same age, and it might not be your exact same interests, but they're also open social schedule. So go where new people go when they get to a city. Ask other people you know who are really busy. Do you know anyone else who's recently moved here, like in the last few months or a year? You are going to be a social savior for them, right? Like, you also can be the greeter of new people coming into the city if you make it known that that's what you're really good at.

• 54:47Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I got that same advice when I was the only friend in my friend group that was going to be single after calling off an engagement. And my friend said to me, "I'm going to give you some really tough love. You need to meet single friends because all of your friends are in relationships. They're all taken and you're gonna constantly be left out of double dates. You're gonna constantly feel bad about yourself versus enjoying being single because you're around people that love to be single."

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:11Maggie Sellers Reum?

  One of the things that I had to ask, because it really did come up for me, because I often in dating relationships would find myself being love bombed by this, what you're talking about, very, very fast, very front-loaded relationships where it was like, "Oh, my God, I'm spending every single day with you." None of those ended up working out. So is there different data and science between friendship front-loading and dating front-loading?

• 55:35Speaker 02

  Very much, very much, because the connection that you have romantically is physically based and physical lust has a very different chemical feeling than the slow build of a non-sexual relationship, right? So if you're front-loading with a physical relationship, you're overwhelmed with all the chemicals that come with the kisses and the touching and the oxytocin and the hand-holding. That physicality is going to completely change your body where you're ignoring the red flags, right? Like, front-loading and love bombing in a relationship, you're like, "Oh, my gosh, this feels so good," or doesn't, and so you get distracted by it. With a friendship, you're front-loading quality time. There's no kissing. There's no hand-holding, not usually, right, on a friendship.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  So you're front-loading depth of conversation. If you're going on a three-hour hike with someone, or it's the week after you met and you decide to do a little road trip, you have hours of, "Do we have the same taste in music?" What do we talk about when it's silent? Do we both feel the silence in the same way? We have to stop on the side of the road. Where do you pick? Where's your go to? Do we snack the same? Like, you are very quickly knocking down all those hurdles that can just be kind of weird things in a relationship. They're not friendship killers, but they very quickly allow you to have me too moments. Oh, you love that place? I love that place, too. This playlist is incredible. Oh, my gosh, can we actually stop at this winery? I've been dying to try it. Yes, I've been trying to.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Like, it gives you more opportunities for those me too moments, which are, it's very different than a physical relationship.

• 57:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I think we also learn a lot about friendships from these parasocial relationships of friendships that we've seen. So what I've, I don't really watch reality TV, but what I've identified is there are shows built on friendship, right? Summer House.

• 57:22Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Even some of like

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Real Housewives.

• 57:23Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Real Housewives, friendships. There, have you heard of this new group on social media called The Four and The Five?

• 57:30Maggie Sellers Reum?

  They have blown up. It's these four girls that live in the five boroughs of New York City. And people are obsessed with the dynamic of these female friendships. And it reminds me, not because the characters are replicating Sex and the City, but it reminds me of that infatuation of like watching friendships on screen and almost vicariously living through these types of dynamics. Obviously, you haven't heard of The Four and The Five, but I guess like the making of a cake of an amazing friendship group.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:00Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What does that look like?

• 58:02Speaker 02

  I've had in my life a couple of amazing friendship groups, but then someone moves, or I move. I've moved a lot. Okay, so what I think makes an exceptional friendship group is actually diversity of personality. I think this is the same thing with like Sex and the City. It's the same thing with any of those friends. What do you like about watching those friendships? What make those friendships work? Is that everyone has their own like shtick. They have their own thing. I think a mistake that we can make is we try to make friends exactly like us. We can have similar interests, but if everyone's an extrovert, no one gets a word in. Right? If everyone is hyper organized, then everyone's going to compete with their agendas and their plans. I actually think it's great in a personality group to have like everyone's unique and diverse personality. So like you have the extrovert of the group.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  They're always the one who are rain making for you. You have the introvert of the group. They're the deep listener who you call when you just need to like vent. You have the person who's the planner. That's always me, right? Like you have like the planner who's hyper organized and loves to take charge. You have the person who's the spontaneous one. We don't need a plan, but let's be spontaneous and they keep you fun. Right? Like diversity of personality in a friend group is so under talked about and such a great thing. And we actually want to honor different personality types because we need all types of personality types to succeed.

• 59:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Is there something that we have not talked about today? That you would be sad to leave your first appearance of Hot, Smart, Rich on? Cause you'll be back without talking about.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Yes. I want to talk about dream jobs. So the question that I get the most often, I feel so interesting to hear the questions you get. The question I get the most often is you have a really cool job. Did you create it? How do I create my dream job? And I think that people do the wrong thing where they follow their passion. Stop following your passion. It will not lead to your dream job. In fact, if you try to monetize your passion, the passion will go away. Money and passion, they just do not stick. Anytime someone monetizes something they love, I'm like, oh, sad death for that passion. Because after a while, it's really hard to separate that. Also, we tend to burn out on our passion. Passion comes in a burst. It comes all at once. And then over time, when you're stuck doing it for 10, 20 years, it can get really old.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  So for example, I've been doing this job for 20 years. I've been posting on YouTube since 2007, a video a week since 2007. If I followed my passion, I would be burnt out. Right? I'm very interested in what I do and I think there's a matrix here. So I just created this framework for literally my friend who is trying to recreate her dream job. She's been in the same job for a long time and she's like, I'm successful, but unhappy. I'm successful, but I'm exhausted. I'm successful, but like something is missing. And so I wanted to break this down for your audience. I'm super excited. Okay. So the very first ingredient, the very first circle that I want you to think about is actually mastery.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Or capability. So sorry, my handwriting is like terrible. I also type all the time now, so I forgot. So the very first thing that you have to think about is what are you exceptionally good at? This is not what you love. This is not your passion. This is not what you love doing. These are the tasks that when you do them, time disappears. These are the tasks that you just do better than other people. These are the tasks that when you do them, you hit flow. I want you to try to make a list of all of the tasks, like down to the smallest, that make you feel capable, super capable, that you are better at than most people. That is actually the first ingredient of a dream job. The second ingredient is the one that we think about the most next is salary.

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  Yes, we have to make enough money to pay our bills. The question that I always ask with salary is, what is the amount of money that will make you feel like you've made it? So like, what is the track that will make you feel like I've earned it? I'm where I'm supposed to be. Could the salary hit that track? So you want to feel extremely good at what you do, but you also want to make sure that you make enough money to cover your bills. And there's a track to feeling like you've made it. Like, some of my friends who have jobs that don't have a track, I ask them, will you ever feel like you've made it in this job? And they're like, I'm never going to be able to afford the vacation that I want. And I know that it's going to be almost impossible for them. Like, for example, some of my friends are teachers. And I'm like, I love it. You have super mastery. They have a couple of other circles. They're like, I know I will never make enough money to be able to have the life I want. And I'm like, something is missing there.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  We have to add something to that. Okay, so mastery salary. The next one is social. I'm sure you're not surprised. You can feel incredible at your job. You can make the most amount of money. If you hate your boss, you're not happy. You can be very masterful. You can have the most money. If you hate your coworkers, you're not happy. Investing in work relationships that help you be your best self. They do not have to be your best friends. You don't have to have a work bestie. But for the people you interact with on a daily basis, specifically the five, the five people you interact with on a daily basis, do they help you be your best self? If the answer is yes, you've mastered social. You can be at ease around them, and that's the most important measure.

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  And the last one, the most important one, is meaning. And this is the one that we often forget. These are the jobs that I think I see the most burnout in. You feel really capable, you're freaking great at your job. You make a great amount of money. Your team is awesome. But it's meaningless. You're not helping anyone. You don't feel like you have a purpose. You feel like all those things that you're a master of a lot, what is it even for? Finding meaning in your tasks, and by the way, that could be in service of the team. I think that a lot of people, it's great if you can help people, but even having meaning around supporting your team or making enough money so you're creating payroll. Like, for example, at my company, it is really important to me that we have an incredible team that's paid well, that I can really helpfully support my payroll. Like, that's an important part of my meaning.

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  Yes, I want to help people publicly, but having a team that feels like they can pay their bills and have a living wage is very important. So what is your meaning? These, I think, are the four circles that I wish we talked about more. And I think they create this sort of like middle thing, if I can be really corny and like, I think that is actually where like our heart comes in our dream jobs.

• 1:04:07Maggie Sellers Reum?

  It's interesting, too, because I'm a lot of really successful people that they have the mastery, the salary, the social, but because they lack meaning, it's that saying of like, "Some of the richest people that you know are the most unhappy people."

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:04:19Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Do you see that?

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  Yes, so one of my dear friends sold a business for an ungodly amount of money, like so much money. Super good at his job, made a huge sell, you know, huge, sold his business, loves his team, has a great group of friends, and he said, "I have to start over." I said, "Why?" He's like, "I feel like I have no legacy." I was like, "But you sold this incredible business." He's like, "Yeah, it's a software company, like, it's not helping anyone." He feels like he hasn't made it, even after all that, because he feels like he has no legacy, he has not contributed to the world, he has no meaning. So he's starting from scratch with a new business with this first. Because he went too long without adding the meaning back into his job, without adding the meaning back into his day to day.

• 1:04:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  We didn't really get the chance to talk about money a ton today, but I am interested just on that point as like people are thinking about their dream job and we are so surrounded in culture now of money. And I'm interested in your thought on, does money buy happiness?

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  I think a certain amount of money buys happiness because we are comfort creatures. We have to have a certain amount of comfort. And especially now, our bar for comfort is very high. And this is a problem that I don't know how to solve and I worry for all of us, which is to have a good night's sleep. We need to have a perfect mattress and a thing that measures our sleep and our melatonin and our magnesium. Oh, yeah, we should sauna beforehand. We should have great earplugs and we should have the great eye masks. Like even just the things that are required for a free thing we do, which is sleep. Now, the cost to make that optimize is incredibly high. And that's in every area, from our skin to our sleep, to our nails, to our vitamins.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  And so I worry that we feel that money has to buy hap- money has to buy happiness because to be able to do the basic things, now the cost to entry for that is so high. And I don't know what we're gonna do about that.

• 1:06:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  We'll have to have you come back on to talk about it.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  Money, yes.

• 1:06:11Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Vanessa Van Edwards, let's do some fun rapid fire.

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:06:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What is the last thing you put on your credit card?

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Last thing was I did a splurge at Nordstrom Rack. It really makes money at Nordstrom Rack, yeah.

• 1:06:22Maggie Sellers Reum?

  This was today or yesterday?

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Yesterday with my sister.

• 1:06:25Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. What is a dream purchase you want?

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  I really want a really expensive massage chair. I just like love massages. I feel like if I got a really like those like 10 grand one, yes, I want one of those so bad. Sponsor me. I'll do all my videos in a massage chair from now on. I want one of those so bad.

• 1:06:46Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You can only pick one to meet a friend in real life for the rest of your life. Are you going to a workout class or a coffee shop?

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  Workout class. Oh, my gosh, I don't believe in coffees with friends. Hot take. Coffees with friends are so much conversational work. If you're doing something, it's so much easier to talk and fit in. Workout class for sure.

• 1:07:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. What tells you more about a person? Eye contact or body language?

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Body language. Anyone can make eye contact. Like liars are top this too. Eye contact tells, it doesn't tell you much, but body language tells you a lot.

• 1:07:17Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You can only work for one person for the rest of your life. Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg?

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  Elon Musk, for sure, for sure. I feel like I would vibe with him, actually. I love Awkward Smart. Yes, we would vibe.

• 1:07:37Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What is the reality TV show that has the best body language between the cast?

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Ooh, it's just so good. Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, they have so many stakes, like they care so much. And so the body language is just divine.

• 1:07:52Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Who's your favorite character?

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  I mean, Kyle Richards, she's so epic. Oh, my God.

• 1:07:58Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You can only communicate using body language or hand gestures for the rest of your life?

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  Hand gestures. I love a hand gesture. I mean, I could tell you everything with my hands. Yeah, for sure.

• 1:08:09Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Vanessa Van Edwards, what is one HSR love note that you would tell yourself for the rest of your life, only one?

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  Does it count if I can say you're exactly where you're meant to be? Like, we're exactly where we're meant to be. You're exactly where you're meant to be.

• 1:08:22Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And if you had to title the season of your life, what would it be called?

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  It's not aggressively helpful, because that's my mantra for life. So the season of life? Hustle, girl. Hustle.

• 1:08:35Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Love that. Vanessa Van Edwards, where can people find you and how can HSR help you?

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm Vanessa Van Edwards on all the networks, Vivian Edwards. And then I write a newsletter. I write it, me. I hand-create this newsletter. It's one social tip every week at scienceofpeople.com. It's like my favorite social hack of the week, and I do a conversation starter every week.

• 1:08:54Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Thank you so much for coming on. We're gonna have to have you back.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:09:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  If you're starting a business, there are certain things that are so fun to think about. Y'all know I love a mood board, so everything that relates to the creative, the name, the brand, the website, the vision board. But then there are the things that make you pause and ask, am I even doing this correctly? Or do I even want to be doing this? Like forming your business, getting the right documents, keeping your personal information private. This is where our sponsor, Northwest Registered Agent, is so helpful. They're a one-stop shop for founders who want to launch and legitimize their business without turning it into a giant admin spiral. They help you form an LLC or a corporation, act as your registered agent, and give you tools like a business address, operating agreement, website, phone number, professional email, and free guides.

• 1:09:52Maggie Sellers Reum?

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