Jocko Underground: Claustrophobia. How To Get a Strong Mentor. Entrepreneurship Advice. Should a Competition be Equal For All Players?

Claustrophobia Finding a strong mentor. Food quality vs food quantity. Advice on Starting a business. Should I take a promotion? Equality among competitors? Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 27, sitting here with Echo Charles, sometimes known as Echo Charles.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Sure, hell yeah.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  So, the last one of these that we did, we were talking about this, this psychological study called the Monster Study, which is really messed up, and also kind of shows the kind of influence you can have over another human being, especially a young, malleable, human being. But then we were talking to Hickson Gracie, the other day, on the Jocko Podcast. And he was talking about how he overcame claustrophobia. He went into the Hickson Vehido.

• 0:45Jocko Willink?

  And I know, I kind of wanted to say something during the podcast, but it would have sidetracked the podcast, let's face it. We could have had a 45-minute, maybe one-hour discussion about your experience of claustrophobia.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  So, I figured, I made a little note, next time we get on here, we could talk about your experiences with claustrophobia, which were pretty gnarly, and then you got over it, kind of, I believe. Where are you at? What was it like? What did it feel like? You and I used to train, and you sometimes would tap out, from not a submission, but just from claustrophobia.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, yeah.

• 1:30Jocko Willink?

  I had a guy, he was one of my platoons, and he would, we'd roll, and I'd roll with everybody, so by the time he would show up, because I'd roll with people sequentially, hey, you come at 5:15, you come at 5:30, whatever. By the time this guy showed up, I would be sweaty. And he would, he only probably rolled with me three times, because after that, he just didn't want to do jiu-jitsu anymore. But he, I remember him just getting so angry. You know, I'm a cross-eyed, or I'm mounted, or something, and he's just, and he's tapping, just like, just get off me, and like, walking around the mat, angry. You know what I'm saying? And it was claustrophobia.

• 2:10Jocko Willink?

  But he expressed it through anger, and frustration, but just really, just anger. He hated it.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19Jocko Willink?

  What was your feeling like?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Well, funny you ask this because I do think about it because it you know like when you see on the movies or whatever or you hear about people when they have it really bad like they can't go in an elevator even or like in a crowded space or whatever where it's not it's not even that not that at all.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  It was more the idea that I can't like I can't get out of here like I can't move I can't get out of this tight like space.

• 2:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, this is reminding me of Admiral McGuire's story about being in the torpedo tube with water in there and a rig and three other guys.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:00Jocko Willink?

  Twenty one inch circle, by the way.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03Jocko Willink?

  I saw a comment, somebody read that and said twenty one inch circle, that's the size of Echo Charles's arms.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, that uh.

• 3:14Jocko Willink?

  So that's a little that's a little tube you're in.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so even that, yeah, I'd feel it with the water and stuff. Yeah, that's crazy. Here's the thing that would always help, though, is if I if I had something else on my mind, like if I was doing something, like I've had a job to do or whatever, then it takes it away fully. So the times where I felt it and I really had to like, okay, so jujitsu, right, where.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  The thing is, you really like jujitsu.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:38Jocko Willink?

  You really like jujitsu. Everything but that. So you kind of had to force yourself to get over that.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you there was only a handful of people that I felt it with, though. And you, because your side mount is freaking is not only heavy, because you put a bunch of extras on your side control, like heaviness, you know, like when you walk around at what, two thirty or whatever. You don't feel like two thirty, like I've had guys who's three hundred pounds that their side control is not that like hard, you know, just your regular side control, not the kind like you're trying to put elbows and nothing like that, just regular resting side control. Whatever, um, it's like heavy. It was less about the physical feeling. It was more about the mental feeling because. If let's say I'm going with like a really a new jujitsu guy and he goes side mount and he's 270 pounds.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  I know like when it's time, I can get out of here. If I make it a point like I'm gonna get out, I can get out. So whatever. But with you, it's not like that. So I can be like, I can, my life can depend on it and I probably won't get out of here. So and then not to mention, I'm probably tired or we'll say I'm not full energy.

• 4:48Jocko Willink?

  Right. Little short on breath.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Little short on breath, like all that thing and you put it all together. It's like, oh, so if I feel like, hey, I'm working on a very specific technique to get out of side control, it won't affect me. It's weird because I'll be trying to work on that technique. But if it fails a couple of times, then I'm just left with the side control and I'm like, dang, yeah, and then I'll feel it for sure. But it has a lot to do with two.

• 5:12Jocko Willink?

  You're kind of over it now, though, don't you?

• 5:13Speaker 01

  I'm over it, for sure.

• 5:14Jocko Willink?

  100%?

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  I haven't probably gonna put that to the test in the near future.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  If and here's the thing, too. Here's a weird thing. It's also like, so remember, there was a time where you thought I wasn't over it, or you maybe thought I wasn't, you wanted to quote unquote, put it to the test. And then you did this thing, you went side control and you put your feet up on the wall to make it extra heavy. And I was like, oh, I feel it physically, but I didn't feel it mentally. Almost like.

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  So maybe you're cured.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  I felt like the more you're trying to do it to me, and I know you're trying to make me claustrophobic, the less it works. I feel like if you're just like, if you're just like, okay, you got the position and let me just hold it here to set up this or set up that. I'm like, man, there's no escape on this thing because you're dedicated to the side control for the for the personal purpose of having the side control for a reason. And then I have no choice because you're gonna hold it.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  You know what it might be, though? When you put your feet up on the wall and you're like, yeah, go for it, side control, side control, side mount.

• 6:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you got determined.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it's like a me against you now. So I get to, yeah, it's like I have another job to do. But um, yeah, I don't have any more, I don't think.

• 6:20Jocko Willink?

  I feel like what you have to do, the part that I think is psychological is if you start thinking about it. If you start thinking about the fact that you can't move. There's some parable about.

• 6:31Jocko Willink?

  There's village and there's a pot in the village. And if you can stir the pot through the night without thinking about and they tell you what you're not allowed to think about, then through the night it'll turn to gold. And so they tell whatever the thing is they're not supposed to be, don't think about the waterfall. If you think about the waterfall, it won't turn into gold. And so everyone goes out there, they're stirring the pot and they think about the waterfall and they don't get the gold. But then someone shows up and they say, hey, just turn, stir this pot all night. They don't tell them what to not think about. And then they just go in there and they start, they're not paying attention to it.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:07Jocko Willink?

  It just anything like, anything's like that, right? If you don't notice someone, if someone says, hey, is that noise bothering you? I wasn't even, now I can hear it, now I couldn't hear it before, now it's bothering me.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:18Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta learn how to shut that part of your brain off and just fixate on other things. Not get focused on the fact that you can't move your arms.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:27Jocko Willink?

  Or that there's a waterfall.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. He, Hickson brought up a good point though, which I was impressed that he had this mindset so early where he was like, he felt the claustrophobia from the headlock. And he, yeah, and then he goes and like works on it in this like crazy way. At however, 12 years old or something like that, I'm like dang, like 12, usually at 12, you're like, I'm never doing that again. I'm gonna avoid the headlock next time, you know? But I, I feel like when you're, when I am more like in shape and breathing helps and stuff like that. And then the more you, you know, the more I roll with you, the more, yeah, the, the less claustrophobia. I'm gonna feel.

• 8:08Jocko Willink?

  Right on. I just wanted to bring that up.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:13Jocko Willink?

  Let's roll. What do you got for Q and A? Got some interesting Q and A.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Hey Jocko and Echo, I'm a huge fan of the podcast. I appreciate everything that you guys are doing. Since listening, I went from being a high school dropout to maintaining a 4.0 GPA in all my college classes. While working full-time and training at least three days a week in jujitsu. I have dreams to pursue a milit- I have dreams to pursue the military once I complete my associate's degree. And I cannot thank you enough for the motivation and mentorship that I've received from the podcast. With all that being said, I feel I'm lacking a strong male figure in my life. I'm a married 21-year-old female. My biological father isn't in the picture. My husband is paramilitary and struggles deeply with depression. He's very mentally unstable and struggles with wanting to end his life often.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  I feel like I don't have a strong male figure to lean on when I need help or advice. I truly want, I truly want what Dakota Meyer spoke of having with you. Someone I know I can call and trust. My question is, how do I find a fatherly figure as an adult? Is this something I should let happen organically through jujitsu? Or in the future through the military? Do you think this is something that I should just forget and move on from instead? If it's something I should pursue actively, what does that look like tangibly? Thank you for all you do.

• 9:33Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. So here's what I think of mentors and I have talked about this before. You've got to kind of build your own mentors in life. And the chances that you have someone that swoops down to mentor you, the chances of that happening in a really overt way. Hi Jocko, how you doing? I want to be your mentor. Well, great, you have experience in the things that I've always wanted to do. So you're going to be a good mentor. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jacounderground.com and subscribe.

• 10:12Jocko Willink?

  And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you. More control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to

• 10:53Jocko Willink?

  strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So, thank you. It's JacoUnderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.