490 - Trust Me

This week, Karen and Georgia sit down with the hosts of Exactly Right’s newest podcast, Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation. Survivors Lola Blanc and Meagan Elizabeth share their firsthand experiences, discuss what draws people into high-control groups like Heaven’s Gate, the Manson Family and NXIVM and explore how to find a way out. Trust Me premieres on July 30 with new episodes every Wednesday. Follow, rate and review Trust Me wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the show on Instagram at @trustmepodcast and TikTok at @trustmecultpodcast. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This is Exactly Right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

• 0:42Georgia Hardstark?

  The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom. Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface. Watch the Hulu original series, Phony. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.

• 1:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello.

• 1:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:28Georgia Hardstark?

  To my favorite murder.

• 1:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:31Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And we have a very special show for you today because for the last five years, our guests have hosted the podcast Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation, where they dig into the psychology of cults and how they operate.

• 1:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Each week, they speak with guests who've escaped cults like Heaven's Gate, the Manson family, QAnon, and of course, NXIVM.

• 1:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Please welcome to the show the hosts of Exactly Right's newest podcast, Trust Me, Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth. Hi. Yay.

• 2:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Welcome.

• 2:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 2:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Welcome, like, here and here.

• 2:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  We're so excited to be here.

• 2:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very exciting. It's very exciting to see you. It's very exciting to see your outfits today. Thank you so much. We worked really hard on them. Really nice.

• 2:15Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys showed up with the outfits. I love it.

• 2:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:19Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so funny. I probably shouldn't say this because then I'm going to get a bunch of DMs, but you dropped into my DMs on Instagram. And I knew your podcast and loved it. And you're like, we're leaving this network. What's up? And I'm like, hell, yeah.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Immediately.

• 2:33Speaker 04

  I mean, it's such a good fit. I don't know. I feel like we're so at home. Everyone here is so great.

• 2:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. We're happy to have you guys here.

• 2:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's such a good podcast. You guys, I mean, like, it's so impressive. There's a lot of them out there, but I think it really does. It raises the bar for the genre, the way you guys talk about it and the empathy you can talk about it from. I mean, we'll get into all of it, but congratulations and we're so happy to have you.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 2:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 2:59Speaker 04

  My gosh.

• 3:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's start off with the way you guys.

• 3:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Shall we start with the way you guys start your podcast by discussing the cultiest thing you've got going on this week?

• 3:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I was so excited to think of one.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  OK, Meghan, do you want to share?

• 3:13Speaker 03

  My cultiest thing of the week is there is this new TikTok cult that's going around. It's called Children of the Waning Star.

• 3:22Speaker 04

  Waning Star, I'm in it.

• 3:23Speaker 03

  Yes, thank you.

• 3:23Speaker 04

  You're in it?

• 3:25Speaker 03

  You're in it.

• 3:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just obsessed with TikTok, so whatever.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  So you've seen that people are putting in the like star and the fingerprint emoji. And then immediately rumors are starting of like, people are sacrificing their pets and all of these horrible things. And at the end of the day, none of that is actually happening. But the TikTok algorithm in itself is a cult. And all of the most extreme things that it can get its hand on, it just, its hands? The algorithm has hands?

• 3:53Speaker 04

  Maybe multiple hands. And myriad of hands.

• 3:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Sticky hands, too.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  It just pushes it out. And the more extreme a belief, the more extreme a piece of news, whether it be real or fake, boom, it's out there. The end. And now people think that this is a real cult. So, you know, but we try to keep it topical and that's what's happening this week.

• 4:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That's interesting.

• 4:15Speaker 04

  We've, it's so interesting because we talk about cults a lot, but then there's a whole part of the internet that's so obsessed with cults that they'll get fixated on deciding that something is a cult.

• 4:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  And then they kind of become their own cult because they're obsessed with taking down this cult. And a lot of the time it's completely exaggerated or just like taken out of context, you know, that kind of thing. And yeah.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, there'll be like a small comment and then that'll be the news story. It's just.

• 4:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, the problem is the, like, solution, not the problem.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly, exactly.

• 4:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You know.

• 4:40Speaker 03

  In this particular case, although we do see a lot of real online cults popping up left and right, which I get into a lot.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  There's so many.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:48Speaker 04

  There's so many.

• 4:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's so wild to start to understand that people live so much online these days that to someone like me who the internet started when I was in my mid-20s, so I was just like, mm, take it or leave it, but there's people who live on it constantly, so that idea of somehow suddenly following someone, being with them every day, like, that getting kind of inundated by that is very common these days.

• 5:12Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 5:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're like at the peak loneliness in America like ever in history, so of course we're gonna look online for community and for some source of identity, and there are so many hucksters out there, ready and willing to sell you on something to provide that answer to you.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  Absolutely, like podcasts.

• 5:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, for example, yeah.

• 5:29Karen Kilgariff?

  The time is now.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Lola, what's your cultiest thing?

• 5:34Speaker 04

  I'm kind of stealing it from Meghan, actually.

• 5:36Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  So, I'm always fascinated by the way that cults and authoritarian regimes love to limit evidence-based information, they like to attack science and make you basically stop believing in reality so that they can fit their own truth in there. We know that that's happening in the current Trump administration with 402 attacks on science, and there are a number of reasons for that, but actually, connecting to that is a poem that somebody from Meghan's cult that she grew up in, which we will talk about, wrote, who has been accused of...

• 6:10Speaker 03

  A lot of, um, I don't, I'm not sure if he wrote it, he shared it.

• 6:13Speaker 04

  Oh, he shared it, he shared it.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  Yes, but he's just been accused of acting inappropriately with minors.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  Oh, dude.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  And the two by twos, which is my cult, love a good poem, and by good poem, I mean bad poem.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Creepy-ass poem.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  So, go ahead, Lola.

• 6:27Speaker 04

  Okay, I'm only gonna read the first half because this will take too long, but, okay. If you know of a thing that will darken the joy of a man, a woman, a girl, or a boy, that will wipe out a smile, or the least way annoy, or be the thing they're hope to destroy, the best thing to do is forget it. All caps. If you know of a thing that will sadden the heart, or hinder any from doing their part, or cause an old wound to sting or to smart, don't be the one to give it a start. Be the one who can forget it. All caps. All caps. It goes on.

• 6:59Georgia Hardstark?

  This whole time, I haven't needed to be on pharmaceuticals.

• 7:02Speaker 04

  It's so easy. You just forget your problem.

• 7:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Why is this the first I'm hearing about this?

• 7:07Speaker 04

  Doi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To me, it's just like, it's so fascinating, because of course, somebody who's been accused of something is like, well, don't think those negative thoughts. Just forget it. Don't worry about the things that maybe make you uncomfortable, or are very alarming, or are a crime. Just forget it.

• 7:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Forget it. Just because something rhymes, doesn't mean it's right.

• 7:26Speaker 04

  And that is the rhyme as reason effect. That really is.

• 7:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Really? Shut up. Tell me more.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  Oh, that's a cognitive bias. Foxy Knoxie. Amanda Knox. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She talked about that on our show at one point.

• 7:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 7:38Speaker 04

  The easier information is to process, the more likely we are to believe it's true. So rhyming can actually make things feel more true.

• 7:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like the headline. If that's salacious, it doesn't matter what's in the article.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 7:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just like, the thing that you see first is like, the rhyme.

• 7:50Speaker 04

  If a glove don't fit, you must acquit.

• 7:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I love that.

• 7:54Speaker 04

  We're full of things like that.

• 7:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Actual information. Right, right.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  We're so into it.

• 8:01Georgia Hardstark?

  What's that like? What's your cult thing? Okay, my cult, and you could also call it alcoholism probably, is rosé. It's weird how obsessed I've become with it as like, what it means to my day. I'm not trying to drink it all the time, but when I do, I feel like I'm having a better day. And it's become, I don't even want any other alcohol. If there's no alcohol in the house, I won't drink it. But if there's rosé, does that sound like I drink too much?

• 8:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, how much do you drink once you finally make the decision?

• 8:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And not, like a can.

• 8:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 8:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's the other thing too, like a can of wine is.

• 8:34Speaker 03

  Listen, I use Diet Coke as my cultiest thing one week. And I already shared with y'all, you guys have a plethora of Diet Coke in the refrigerator here at this beautiful studio. We all belong to the.

• 8:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  Cult of Diet Coke. And yeah, I think that that brands or things can become culty and they they give us comfort. They give us.

• 8:55Speaker 04

  Well, we get, we have, get this loyalty.

• 8:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:57Speaker 04

  Someone offers me a Diet Pepsi, I'm like, excuse me.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly. It just like says something about the user or the person who, you know, it says something about me that I'm not, if I'm drinking a beer, that's one thing, I'm drinking a rosé. To me, it's a totally different thing.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  As someone who has never had alcohol in her life, due to my Mormon upbringing, I cannot relate to this, but I like how it sounds.

• 9:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it looks, it looks good.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  And as someone who's no longer allowed to have alcohol because I've had too much of it, I also like how it sounds.

• 9:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all very, very familiar.

• 9:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I mean, because I was kind of, I couldn't decide because I think there's a lot of things I do in my life that are very culty or like, I love to fall into a little rhythm and habit that's like something I really can do and rely on. So then it's like, great, it'll be mindless. I'll just, every morning I'll have a vanilla latte or every blah, I'll do this and it'll get me through. But lately, and it going back to TikTok, shopping for clothes on TikTok where there's no way the size is going to be right. There's no way the material is going to be what I want it to be or what the picture looks like. It's truly rolling the dice Las Vegas style and knowing you're going to lose and doing it anyway. I ordered a shirt that I tried on this morning that I couldn't stop laughing because it felt like it was made of wax.

• 10:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It was the weirdest texture. It was the where I was like, well, it was only $9. So what was I thinking that I was just going to get a gorgeous? blouse for my next dinner party like and I keep going back. I won't be convinced that it's gonna not work the next time. Okay, but that's because sometimes it does work. Really well. And that's intermittent reinforcement. Yes. Which is how calls work. Yes, when you get a nine dollar shirt that is actually 100% cotton and you're like, wait, you can't find these for $80 in America. Like, there is a treasure hunt aspect to it. Yes, you get addicted to like, is this gonna be the good one? Yes. And usually not. Right, yes, almost never.

• 10:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And that dopamine hit too. Like, I have the shopping dopamine hit of like, find, like with vintage shopping, like finding a treasure.

• 10:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 11:00Georgia Hardstark?

  But there's been so much trash and I, you know, and that doesn't matter.

• 11:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, never, yeah. Yeah, it's hard to adjust. I'm obsessed. Well, amazing. I mean, like, if you liked what we just did right there, guys, you're going to, you're going to love Lola and Megan's show.

• 11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff, so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10%

• 12:03Karen Kilgariff?

  off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 12:09Speaker 05

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 12:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.

• 12:22Speaker 05

  If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.

• 12:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Teal's magnesium Spray comes in a lightweight, fast drying formula.

• 12:37Speaker 05

  Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.

• 12:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just sprayed on your feet and suddenly you're asleep. And the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.

• 12:56Speaker 05

  And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?

• 12:59Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you call my feet stinky?

• 13:02Speaker 05

  For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye. The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.

• 13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception, his mom.

• 13:20Speaker 05

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives. But for Sonny, he knows something is off.

• 13:26Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

• 13:34Speaker 05

  Is this all in his head or is there really an imposter in his house?

• 13:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 13:45Speaker 05

  Watch the Hulu original series Phony.

• 13:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.

• 13:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So let's talk about everyone's favorite thing, red flags.

• 13:58Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 13:59Georgia Hardstark?

  What are some red flags you can tell us about? Like the thing intermittent.

• 14:03Speaker 04

  Reinforcement.

• 14:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. And then the rhyming thing was called.

• 14:07Speaker 04

  The rhyme as reason effect.

• 14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. So, red flags, right?

• 14:11Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  Love bombing, huge. That'll probably be the first thing you'll, you'll notice.

• 14:15Georgia Hardstark?

  How does that look when it's not in a relationship? Because I've, I know love bombing when it's, you know, in a relationship, like personal romantic.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Well, it'll just look like, oh, my gosh, you're exactly a right fit for this. Lots of personal attention, lots of everything you've been wanting and needing. Who doesn't love personal attention? It can come from a group, it can come from a person, and it's very addicting.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, the term, I believe, comes from cults originally. It was a tactic used to recruit people where like the girls would go out and be like, oh, my gosh.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Flirty fishing.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 14:50Speaker 04

  So, yeah, I agree with that one. I think also when, like, okay, so I did the, can we talk about Scientology?

• 14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  Let's talk about Scientology.

• 15:00Speaker 04

  I did the Scientology stress test one time. And what the result, first of all, the IQ test was nonsense. It was completely like, it didn't make sense.

• 15:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  It wasn't based on IQ.

• 15:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Wasn't translating.

• 15:11Speaker 04

  No. But at the end of it, they basically like told me how in danger I am and how they could provide the solution. They were like, you are so anxious. And I was like, yes, true. However, I'm not going to pay all of the money you are telling me to pay to go to your courses. There's like a breaking down of like, oh no, there's something wrong with you and then providing the solution.

• 15:34Speaker 03

  Right. And that's, I think, why these online cults are really powerful too, because they offer easy solutions. So a lot of them start off with diets. We're gonna, this is our little like shake regiment that I made up and you're gonna love it. And you're like, I want to lose some weight, let's say.

• 15:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  Okay, I'm on my shake regimen and I'm losing my weight. Yay. Suddenly weirder and weirder things start to be introduced, but you've already been primed that it's a working, normal thing to do. And now you're in a group of other people who are doing it, who are also like, no, it seems normal.

• 16:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, I've never thought of that being like a gateway to something that has nothing to do with nutrition and diet and stuff.

• 16:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. And we wonder sometimes if they're, if it's conscious that they went that way. Because like, once you're hungry.

• 16:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  You're more susceptible to.

• 16:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 16:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Low blood sugar going.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Then when people do accept you, you're more excited, right?

• 16:30Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 16:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like the lows and the highs are lower and higher.

• 16:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 16:34Speaker 03

  But food is just a really easy way to grab people because it's a need that we all, you know, like it's, it's an easy one. So we can see that a lot playing out.

• 16:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. And whenever there is a strong inclination to make you feel afraid of like a different group. That's like a huge one. Because that fear is something that can then be capitalized on to, again, offer you a solution to all of that fear you're feeling.

• 16:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And to like, to prove you right because other people around you feel the same way. So.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, and to just simplify that, and even further, it's like even if you're in a narcissistic or abusive, which we know it like it's narcissistic, it's

• 17:12Speaker 04

  Thrown around a lot.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  But

• 17:15Speaker 03

  But if you're in narcissistic or abusive relationship, very soon after the love bombing phase, it's gonna be like, your friends are awful.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  Isolating you.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  Isolating you.

• 17:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  So you can kind of see it play out on a stage that might be more normal or grounded for people, because who hasn't, who hasn't gotten involved with somebody like that?

• 17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and my friends are crazy, so if someone else points out like that fact, it's true.

• 17:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I love about them.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 17:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so interesting, it sounds so similar to a romantic relationship with the love bombing and the like abusive controlling stuff. Are certain people susceptible, more susceptible to that, do you think, than, than others? I'm such a cynic, I can't imagine, but that's part of it, right? Like, that's what could be used against me.

• 18:01Speaker 04

  I mean, exactly. What could be used against you is a cult of cynical people.

• 18:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:05Speaker 04

  Who are, who are like, I would never join a cult.

• 18:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, the goths.

• 18:08Speaker 04

  Let's talk about it together for hours on end.

• 18:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, we, like, that's something we talk about a lot, but what's, what we find over and over and over again is there are all kinds of people that join. Women seem to be more open to talking about it, but men also join, and it's really more about where they are in their life that makes them maybe a little bit more vulnerable to manipulation in that moment, but it's not necessarily a personality trait that recurs.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, if you're going through a breakup, if you're going through financial hardship, if you've lost somebody, just be really careful, because people prey upon you.

• 18:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Because you're looking for an answer, you're, you're not grounded like you usually would be.

• 18:46Speaker 04

  Or you're just young and open-minded, because people get targeted just because they're young a lot, you know?

• 18:51Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 18:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. So, this show has been going on for five years.

• 18:54Speaker 04

  It's so crazy to hear you say that. I cannot believe it's been five years.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Five years.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  What the hell?

• 18:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And you guys kicked it off by talking, Lola, about your background, and so do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

• 19:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I was raised just a regular Mormon, just a mainstream Mormon, which is not the polygamous kind, for those who get confused about that. And my, after my parents got divorced, my mom was a single lady who had been excommunicated from the church and had gone through this whole process of rebuilding her, repenting, basically. And a man targeted her at a Mormon singles dance.

• 19:30Speaker 04

  And spent several months, basically convincing her she didn't believe him at first, of course, but spent several months preying upon her Mormon beliefs to convince her that he was the new prophet of God. Wow. And the context for this, which I think is really important, is that, one, the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, is, was a guy in the 1800s who just was like, I had a vision, I got the new church, I'm gonna do it. Right. And so the, the whole, like, foundation of the religion is basically like a guy being like, I had a vision. So it leaves room for other guys to come along. And also, there's a part of the belief system where there's like, part of the scripture was hidden away until the end times.

• 20:13Speaker 04

  So there have been numerous men at this point who have been like, I've found the hidden scripture called the sealed portion. And to make matters significantly worse, maybe the most important detail here, is that my mom had had a dream, prior to meeting this man, about a man that she would meet. And it felt really significant, and he had this very specific look. She said he looked like Brendan Fraser. And she meets this guy at the dance, and he looks just like the guy from her dream. Oh, no. And she's been in this Mormon culture where you, it, dreams are really important. Yep. And signs from God are really important. So he was able to pray upon that, he recognized that, and over time, he did indoctrinate her.

• 20:57Speaker 04

  And we were eventually separated at his command. And she had a very harrowing experience on her own, which we don't necessarily need to get into today. But we did get out, and we are much better now, and we talk about it very openly. And now my mom is an advocate for people who are in cults and leaving cults. Wow.

• 21:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  It's amazing.

• 21:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. That's really something as, kind of like, you, through the eyes of a child, kind of like, had that experience, which I think, I wonder... The difference there because adults going in with the ego of I would never be convinced or you can't, I'm not going to do something I wouldn't believe as opposed to kind of the open mind of a child of like, I'm seeing all of this and what like, do you think that you had an insight that maybe your mother didn't have because you were young and less experienced?

• 21:46Speaker 04

  No, but, but I, I will say I had witnessed my mom, my mom is like, just sees the best in everyone and there are like, certain just like antisocial personality types are really drawn to people like her. So I had seen a couple of people already kind of target her in the past. I was, I was very, I was skeptical of him at first, but I think it was just because of that experience.

• 22:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 22:14Speaker 04

  And then the minute I like found their letter, their emails to each other about how he was a prophet, I was like, oh, sick, he's a prophet. This is so cool.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  The prophet.

• 22:21Speaker 04

  The prophet, yeah. And then I was chosen by God to to like help bring about the end of days, you know? So that was cool.

• 22:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 22:30Speaker 03

  And that's on our first episode that we ever did. We go fully into that.

• 22:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:34Karen Kilgariff?

  What was the process of like extracting yourself and your own, and becoming your own person outside of that?

• 22:40Speaker 04

  You know, big question.

• 22:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Tell us step by step.

• 22:49Speaker 04

  Well, she actually, so she was, what is the best way to phrase this? So there had been men that had come to where she was staying, where she'd been told to stay. And there was a man who had come there basically because the prophet was like, hey, you can go, there's this woman you can go take advantage of. He saw what she was living through and broke down crying and got her out.

• 23:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  Which is not usually how things go, but he just felt so bad. He's actually still in our lives. But after that, I mean, honestly, it was a years long process. I mean, we didn't really talk about it for years. Like, it was just kind of something we pretended didn't happen. And then my mom started talking about it openly and then she got her PhD in media psychology and now we like, you know, we've processed the fuck out of it.

• 23:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That's amazing.

• 23:36Speaker 04

  But it took a long time.

• 23:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. That's great. And Megan, do you want to talk about your experience?

• 23:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure. I wish it had been processed. It is not.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  But I'm fourth generation on both sides of my family, two by two. So some people call it, it doesn't technically have a name, which is baked into the cultiness of it. Uh, some people call it the truth, the way the two by twos, basically if you were super into Archie comic books when you were younger, you might have been a part of it. That's like one of the big tells is that we were all given a bunch of Archie.

• 24:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Really?

• 24:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know why, but sometimes people are like, that's not the one I was in. And then I'm like, is it the Archie one? And they're like, yeah.

• 24:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the tell.

• 24:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Did they change the contents to make it like Archie supporting?

• 24:25Speaker 03

  No.

• 24:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 24:26Georgia Hardstark?

  What is it about Archie?

• 24:27Speaker 03

  Uh, we weren't allowed to have television. We weren't allowed to watch movies. We weren't supposed to do anything entertaining. So for some reason, people were like, let them read Archie's.

• 24:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  At least they can do that. And we did.

• 24:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like a ghost from 1952 came in.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's such an interesting fact, like a little tidbit. If you ever see someone with an Archie tattoo, you're like, what's up?

• 24:52Speaker 03

  What's up?

• 24:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I know you. What was like the basic tenet of that?

• 24:56Speaker 03

  That's a great question. So since they haven't written anything down, really nobody knows. Essentially this man named William Irvine had a, what I would call a manic episode in like 1897, where he got really depressed on New Year's Eve and was like, I found a verse, I think it's in Matthew, that was like, I'll send them out two by two and they'll have no home and they'll go out and la, la, la, la, la. And he was like that. And so he was very, he was like the Scotsman, very charismatic and he started this homeless ministry. We go out two by two and we have no possessions and people loved it. And, and Ireland, you know, well, actually I'll, I'll back up a, a second. People hated it. But some people loved it. The people who loved it.

• 25:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, the people who loved it, loved it. The people who he was telling they were going to hell and like, this church is evil, that church is evil, any church that's not our church is evil. They were like, shut up. And there's so many newspaper clippings, but now I've seen at the time where people are like, William's on it again, like he's up and preaching. But he ends up losing his mind completely and he's excommunicated. And he ends up dying in Israel in like 1914 and is just kind of, maybe later, maybe 1920 something. But he's written out of the history of it. They're embarrassed of him going off the deep end. They don't want to talk about it. They have a pretty big following at this point and they're like, let's just write him out. It came from Jesus. Okay. So there's no founder. We're going back.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  We're going way back. And so they just decided to erase him. So when I'm growing up, fourth generation, where, when did your church start? I don't know about William. I've never heard about William. I go, it started from Jesus. Yeah. And that's what we all thought. And so the basic tenets are that strange people lived in our homes. Hmm. Because they don't have a house, that we went to a lot of church. It's pretty much like being Amish, but also living in the normal world. There's a verse in the Bible that says you should be in the world, not of the world. So Amish people are wrong because they've taken themselves out of the world. So who cares if you're righteous and like sweet, out where no one can see you. Right.

• 27:10Speaker 03

  You need to be among the centers, but you need to be so weird that people go, there's something different about you. I have that, we have that. We relate to that. And they go, what is it? And then you go, it's Jesus. It's Jesus, that's my big secret. Yeah, that's my big secret. And the amount of secrecy and level, I mean, we really lived a lot like Amish people, while going to normal schools, having normal jobs. But I didn't know, like, people would be like, did you see Saturday Night Live? And I was like, what? The heck is that? Yeah.

• 27:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  No clue. And you had to wear long dresses. Oh, yeah, I got to wear really long jean skirts, um, buns, and you know, I- You couldn't cut your hair? No. Yeah. This bob is an act of rebellion. Hell, yeah. Ditto, I love that. Great decision.

• 28:01Speaker 04

  We all have bobs.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  We all have bobs. It's a cult. It's a cult. You said rebel, I said cult. Same thing, a rebel cult. Rebel cult, exactly, now we're susceptible. And, yeah, we had to wear in buns. I luckily did rebel. My friends would bring me clothes to school when I got a little bit older, you know, like, so I could wear some jeans. But, yeah, you were, you really weren't supposed to, and my mom didn't. Yep. So when did you get out, and like, when did you? Oh, well, the day my parents dropped me off at college, I was like, bye, thank you. But, um, you know, I, I was supposed to go every Sunday and Wednesday and Sunday afternoon, and I was too busy studying for that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, sure. Did you get incredible grades? I was getting incredible Ds.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  So, you know, I never really went back. Oh, another little tenet of this is that the children in the church profess, and then you start speaking in the meeting. So you don't go to a church building where somebody speaks at you. You meet in homes, and everybody who's professed shares. So I would have to, like, pick a verse every week, and, like, I'm supposed to be teaching people about the Bible, my least favorite book of all time. All I like is The Babysitter's Club, and like, doing everything the opposite of it. So I just stopped going, I stopped speaking when I went, but the fear was so, so heavy because this is a religion that doesn't celebrate Christmas, it doesn't celebrate Easter.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  It's like, those are making light of Jesus. He's not like a little chicklet furry Easter bunny kind of dude. Yeah. He's like, he's bringing the wrath of God, and we're all going to hell. Even the people in it, most of them believe that they're going to hell. So I was very scared, and it really wasn't until this podcast that I even had some hope of, like, unwinding it, because even though my- Big brain was like, this is ridiculous. My other brain was like, no.

• 30:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:03Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the way, I mean, at the beginning, when you were describing that, I'm like, this is the Catholic Church, essentially, without the skirts. But I do think maybe it's not even the Catholic Church, it's just that mindset, which is they're bad and we're good and trying to like live through. So basically, anything we do is justified because they're bad.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And having those thoughts as a kid is a very weird feeling because you're like, I never questioned it, but I would have that, like, I think I've told Georgia this a bunch of times, driving to church, I would see little kids playing in the front yard at their house and be like, oh, that's too bad, they're gonna burn in hell.

• 30:38Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 30:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And like truly just kind of very lightly feel that pity for people. Whereas like, of course, when I got into college, same thing, where I met a bunch of people outside of my town and faith and everything, where I was just like, all these people are not burning in hell. They just, this is illogical. And that kind of thing of like, it's just weird when it's inside you like that. It's just like built in.

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Built in completely, yeah.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, and Mormonism too, we are the chosen ones. We didn't necessarily believe in hell in the traditional sense, but a lower tier of heaven. Everyone else is going to a lower tier of heaven.

• 31:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 31:13Speaker 03

  I'm so jealous of that.

• 31:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Congos versus mansions?

• 31:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Or bottle service and VIP versus just like the regular club.

• 31:21Speaker 04

  It's supposed to be just like, like earth. Like have, if you're a bad person, heaven is just like the normal world. But if you're, if you do the right way, that's a good ass heaven.

• 31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  But like just teaching kids in general that they can like, like being burnt is so painful. And teaching somebody that they can be like that for eternity, that's so mean.

• 31:41Speaker 04

  That's so mean.

• 31:42Speaker 03

  Like really stop it.

• 31:43Georgia Hardstark?

  If that's what you have to do to get children to believe in, or adults even, to believe in what you're preaching, that just seems a little bit like, well, I don't know if you can back that up then.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  You can't back that up.

• 31:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you don't have to back it up because it's a matter of faith.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  Faith. No questioning. Yes, exactly.

• 31:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So basically, do you both know, well, you just described it, the moments you had your doubt, was essentially like you're saying, being out in the real world.

• 32:08Speaker 03

  When I was really little, I was like, No.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  She was a questioner.

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was like, I don't like it. But my problem was, I was, I was like, super dyslexic. I had ADD. And I was from a family with very educated adults who had quote unquote, high-powered jobs. And so I was like, they're smarter than me, so I must be missing something. So that was kind of my experience.

• 32:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I've never heard you say that before.

• 32:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, cognitive dissonance, where I was like. Doubting yourself, your own. If I can't read, and this person's a surgeon, then they're probably right. Yeah. So is your family still involved? Totally. Four generations, that just is a hard thing to break, probably. They are, yeah. Wow. Yeah. And are you accepted and? I just got back from family vacation with them. Nice. I, I couldn't love them more. You know, a lot of people are pretty over it. There was just a very big exposure in the two-by-two system where if you have people staying in people's homes, that's like a vision board for pedophiles to get involved in the group. And they've been covering it up and.

• 33:18Speaker 04

  Another Catholic Church similarity.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Yes, except that they're sleeping in your house for a week, you know? So you don't, you don't get that break. So a lot of people are just writing, there are two-by-two family members off, we're over it. I'm kind of going a different route. It's for each to decide.

• 33:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 03

  Definitely. Yeah. It's a very personal thing. Mm-hmm. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a wild time. Yeah. It's really, it's really crazy.

• 33:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, but I think it's like, that's what Georgia and I were so excited when we knew that your podcast was looking for a home because being able to come from a point of view when you are talking to people who just got out, like that level of empathy from the framework from which you are speaking is very rare. I mean, like, if at all. So I think it just, it's such an advantage that you guys have because you have the experience and you have the empathy and you have the interest. But you also aren't, it is not like you're, like, we are right now. We're like, wait, how did it happen and why would it happen? And whatever, you guys absolutely know how, the how and why usually. So you're right there with people when they're telling their story.

• 34:21Speaker 04

  Thank you, yeah, that's the goal. Like, before I found Megan, when I first had the idea for this podcast, I just was listening to cult podcasts and felt, they all felt so gawky.

• 34:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  Like, look how crazy this was, you know?

• 34:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I would never, well, I feel like that's kind of me a little, and I feel guilty, like, I wasn't raised in any.

• 34:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Religion that was very like was mandatory in any way. So it's so hard for me to understand that. And therefore, I feel like I lack a little bit of the empathy that you guys.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  A lot of people do.

• 34:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of my original, the things that originally made me think of it was I was watching a video about Jonestown and reading some of the comments and all the comments were like, these idiots, you know? And I was like, no, no, no. Especially because, you know, my mom being so much in the, doing so much advocacy in the cult world, I've met so many people who have advanced degrees, who are like wildly intelligent, you know, very successful, talented, like it's just, everybody is susceptible. And that was one of the, yeah, that's the perspective we want to come from is that like, these are just human people, we're having conversations, everybody's smart, like there's, this isn't, there's nothing wrong with you if this happened to you.

• 35:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's so important.

• 35:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So, speaking of, in your premiere episode for exactly right here, you guys interviewed Ekina Cox, who was raised in the Unification Church, which some people call the Moonies, which we've discussed many times on the podcast. Was there anything in that conversation that stood out to you or that was surprising to you? You guys have 500 episodes, you, I, do you still get surprised ever?

• 35:47Speaker 04

  Yes. Well, we hadn't interviewed someone who'd actually participated in a mass wedding before, right? Because I don't think Steve did. No, he never, he didn't get married that way. It's not that it was surprising to learn that it happened, it's just like so interesting to get the firsthand perspective of somebody who had been through that, and her parents as well.

• 36:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 36:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because in San Francisco Bay area, we used to, that would be on like the seven o'clock news all the time because the Unification Church really kind of posted up in San Francisco. There were so many people kind of leftover from the, you know, 1969 kind of drug-addled thing. And so they were picking people in the, I'd say mid to late 70s, it happened constantly. And I think it was part of the local news's way of saying, look out, or this is a group that you should be aware of or something. But they, they would show the footage of 10,000 people getting married at one time. And I remember just like sitting there and turning to my mom like, wait, what is this? And she was just like, the Moonies, like, you know, we all, we know about them or whatever.

• 36:48Karen Kilgariff?

  But it was that kind of like, it's weird to me how much they put it in front of us at the time, seemed to me to message that kind of like, look out, these people are around.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  I really needed somebody to do that for the two by two. Hopefully, I'm doing that. Yeah.

• 37:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Even if they did, four generations, like, what could you have done?

• 37:11Speaker 03

  Exactly. And you did it. Yeah, yeah, but to your point, exactly, like, we need people to say, hey, look at what they're doing, it's weird, otherwise, you're like, is what, normal? I don't know.

• 37:22Speaker 04

  But when you're in it, it feels so normal.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  I know, I know, and the physical abuse, she really shocked me with what they

• 37:32Speaker 04

  In the unification church, yeah.

• 37:33Speaker 03

  From childhood, she was in there, and it was...

• 37:36Speaker 04

  It's like a part, it's like a ritual, it's part of the practice, I guess you guys have probably talked about it before.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, so she really shook us up a bit.

• 37:45Speaker 04

  Also, she's so cool. She's so funny.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I floated us being friends in real life on the interview, and she was like, maybe. She's like, I'll put you on the list, but it's a long list. Let me know, let me know when I'm in your group. I think so much.

• 38:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That's so funny.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  I think one of the things about, you know, publicizing the mass weddings, and like, while it's important to draw attention to stuff like that, it also can create a huge stigma around people who are still in the group.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  Like an us versus them.

• 38:16Speaker 04

  Yes, like, they're weirdos, they're evil, they're bad, and we see that a lot, where the people who are actually victims of the group are treated as though they are perpetrators.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  Like, they're coming out with shame.

• 38:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, and just, you know, having family members who are still in, or knowing people who are still in, the two by twos who are wonderful people, it makes me feel really protective of them, and I absolutely, like we said earlier, understand being like, well, they just need to do their research, and, but you're just taught, like, don't look into this kind of stuff, don't question, if it's generations deep, it's deep.

• 38:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's some serious indoctrination.

• 38:55Speaker 04

  It's really deep, so, um, yeah, I just try to hold space for people who are in it.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  That's generous.

• 39:01Speaker 04

  And I just want to shout out something that's been going on with my mom, because we talk about this idea, a lot of staying connected to people who are still in the group, instead of shunning them.

• 39:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 39:09Speaker 04

  Because... There will be some media on this part of my mom's journey. But after her experience, she ended up moving to the FLDS town of Colorado City, which is where all the polygamists live, for those who don't know, and just was nice to people and was like an outsider who had was like one of the first outsiders to just be nice to them. And through these relationships that she created, she ended up actually getting to know the new self-proclaimed prophet after Warren Jeffs went to prison and ended up going undercover for the FBI.

• 39:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't expect that. I didn't expect that to happen.

• 39:47Speaker 04

  Because now she had earned their trust and she had earned the trust of some of the victims of him who finally came out to her and she was able to get them to tell their stories to the FBI. So it can be also just really powerful for actually helping people is staying connected to them.

• 40:01Karen Kilgariff?

  If she was just like, "Judgey judge, you're wrong. Let me help you out of this." It would not have happened.

• 40:06Speaker 04

  Yes, people who are in a group like that and are isolated from any outsiders like do need some connection, some safe connection outside of the group in order for anything to ever, you know, break.

• 40:19Speaker 03

  And I'm glad you brought that up because you know who else is being investigated by the FBI? Tell us. The two by twos. Are they really? Did the FBI come to my house? They did. Shut up. Yeah, so that's good.

• 40:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:32Speaker 03

  It is. You know, it's bringing attention and putting the authority figures who are actually the ones moving these perps around secretly harboring money that, you know, the spotlight on to them. So, good.

• 40:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Could actually change something.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  Gosh, I hope so.

• 40:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And you're right. I mean, I think that piece of it of like, and we talk about that a lot in this day and age and this political climate or whatever, where it's like when people feel so identified with a group that's so far over into one area, if they don't think they have anywhere to come back to, then there's no point in ever even trying to.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 41:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's hard enough, I'm, you know, I assume.

• 41:11Georgia Hardstark?

  It's hard enough to leave, much less to leave and believe that everyone's judging you once you get out the door.

• 41:17Speaker 04

  Yes, there's got to be some support system or something.

• 41:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 03

  Bridging that gap and just, you know, if it's not for you, that's fine, but we talked to, what was his name, Frank, who was going to dinner parties.

• 41:29Speaker 04

  You mean the white supremacist?

• 41:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, who was that?

• 41:31Speaker 04

  So Frank was the one with, whose boss was Jewish, he was the neo-Nazi.

• 41:35Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:35Speaker 04

  But then, our Derrick Black, now known as Adrian Black, she was the one who was David Duke's poster child.

• 41:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 41:43Speaker 04

  Who has denounced white supremacy and racism and is now, you know, come out as trans, but she was invited to dinner parties by some Jewish friends and over time, like, because she forged these new connections with people, it was like, what broke through her ideology?

• 42:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Did they know who she was when they were invited?

• 42:04Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, yeah, she was like, on the radio, like, she had a radio program for white supremacy.

• 42:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And they were just being generous.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, and my, one of my best friends, Avital, who I-

• 42:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I love Avital, yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  It was her brother who was one of these people who-

• 42:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 42:15Speaker 04

  Tiny world.

• 42:17Speaker 03

  Small world.

• 42:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, really small world.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  But, but it's all to say, you don't have to have the dinner parties. Like, some people are like, oh, I don't-

• 42:23Speaker 04

  No, definitely not.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't want to have that dinner party, and I don't have the capacity to, and that's fine, but if you can have a dinner party, or if you can have a conversation, and it doesn't send you into a spiral, then that's great, it helps.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, everyone's unique and everyone's role is different, and not everyone is destined to pull people out of cults.

• 42:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I would say, maybe leave it to the people who are really good at dinner parties, really good at small talk.

• 42:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 42:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Being welcoming, without judgment.

• 42:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Very few of us in this world actually are like that.

• 42:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I think it's a good thing to strive for, because I do, there is a part of me that feels really guilty about, you know, the way I have considered, I would never, you know, but I've been a 20-year-old girl, I've been in my 30s, depressed, like, we've all been at certain places in our lives where we're susceptible to whatever level of influence someone else. You know, wants to

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 43:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Put on you.

• 43:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I think it does make us feel better if, when you go through the world kind of having a cynical eye toward things, you do, you know, you're missing out on stuff, but you're like, not gonna fall for it. And so then there is that little, it's like the cold comfort of telling yourself like, I was smarter than everybody, where it was like, and you didn't get invited to any dinner parties because of it. So there is, you know, I think it's that. It's like probably less guilt and more of like, you're an automatic cynic because of how you were raised, same with me, where I'm just like, I'll see you coming from a mile away, but it doesn't make me smarter, because every human being has the kind of needs that if you're not getting those needs met, any old group can come along and be like, come be in our band and then, you know.

• 43:58Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 43:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. And like Meghan, we have very different sensibilities

• 44:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 44:05Speaker 04

  in our lives.

• 44:06Speaker 03

  I'm a scientist of the metaphysical.

• 44:10Speaker 04

  Meghan loves magic.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:12Speaker 04

  Hey.

• 44:13Speaker 03

  I love magic.

• 44:13Speaker 04

  I love science. And so when she just said, I'm a scientist.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  She was like, I'm trolling her.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  She's trolling me. I believe in nothing.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 04

  But, so like, we talk about how, anytime we have a cult on the podcast, that's like, a more spiritual, metaphysical, new age one, like Meghan would join.

• 44:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 04

  And that's what we traditionally think of cults as, like either religious or that.

• 44:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 44:40Speaker 04

  But then you got these like self-help programs, and you got these ones that are more for like, making you achieve, or like making you smarter.

• 44:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Naxium.

• 44:50Speaker 04

  I would join Naxium. That's the one that I would join.

• 44:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm just thinking about like Jonestown with some religious leaders.

• 44:56Speaker 03

  You're such a Naxium, you would totally.

• 44:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Twenty-five-year-old Georgia would have fucking signed up immediately.

• 45:02Speaker 03

  Burned it.

• 45:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Burned it.

• 45:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Should we play the game since we're talking about this?

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Good segue.

• 45:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Let's do it.

• 45:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do it.

• 45:11Karen Kilgariff?

  You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 45:13Speaker 05

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray?

• 45:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.

• 45:26Speaker 05

  If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.

• 45:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula.

• 45:41Speaker 05

  Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.

• 45:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.

• 46:00Speaker 05

  And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?

• 46:03Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you call my feet stinky.

• 46:06Speaker 05

  For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye. The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.

• 46:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception: his mom.

• 46:25Speaker 05

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives. But for Sonny, he knows something is off.

• 46:30Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

• 46:38Speaker 05

  Is this all in his head or is there really an imposter in his house?

• 46:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.

• 46:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.

• 46:57Speaker 06

  Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit Firefox.com.

• 47:29Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's time for Would You Join This Cult with the gals from Trust Me.

• 47:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, this one.

• 47:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I covered this one. It was the Sarah Lawrence Dorm Dad who moved into the dorms and basically started this very tiny cult with his daughter's friends.

• 47:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  We interviewed them. That was a great episode.

• 47:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Was it so sad? Because they seem so normal.

• 47:48Speaker 04

  They are. They're cool and normal, like all of our guests are.

• 47:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, of course. And so manipulated. Just so manipulated.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  That guy is endlessly fascinating to me. You don't get video of the actual abuse that often.

• 48:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:03Speaker 04

  And the fact that it's all like on, they were just all filming it on their cellphones. You can just see him talking to that. It's just like so nefarious.

• 48:11Speaker 03

  I can't remember if he was saying he was in the CIA or like, yeah, and just had this big story. I'm very drawn to kind of narcissistic liars.

• 48:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, same.

• 48:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't expect your friend's dad to be that.

• 48:25Speaker 04

  No.

• 48:26Speaker 03

  No. So if your friend's dad is like, I was in, I'd be like, what? Yeah, I totally see how that happened.

• 48:32Speaker 04

  I would see him as an authority figure for sure.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'd join that shit.

• 48:36Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a double yes.

• 48:40Karen Kilgariff?

  The Dorm Dad Cult is going to be fully occupied.

• 48:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So would you join the Manson family?

• 48:45Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 48:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go early on.

• 48:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would.

• 48:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Early on. Yeah. I see you early on.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  Totally. A good commune, hot people. It'd be good.

• 48:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Back at some pictures.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  Some nice drugs.

• 48:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Drugs.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. You would.

• 48:59Speaker 03

  I know.

• 49:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like for me, the like, once they move out into like the desert with no plumbing and no...

• 49:07Speaker 03

  You might lose me.

• 49:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  And once we start getting into murdering people.

• 49:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that too. Like, I'm talking about...

• 49:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 49:14Speaker 04

  But it's always before we know about the bad stuff. Would you join in the beginning?

• 49:18Speaker 03

  150 billion percent.

• 49:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. I would say no only because I think the early days would have been... All those like, kind of like, hangout drug parties with the Beach Boys and stuff. And I know Charles Manson sat around playing the acoustic guitar at those parties. So if people were like, we're going to his farm, I'd be like, absolutely not.

• 49:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so heartbreaking. I'm like, I love this guy. And then you hear his band. And you're like, oh, no.

• 49:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Cannot do this. Yeah, that's true. That's true. That's a good point.

• 49:45Speaker 04

  I don't think, I think it depends on who I'm exposed to initially, because I think I would have been drawn to like,

• 49:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Tex?

• 49:51Speaker 04

  The mu-

• 49:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No, sorry. Tex. Tex Watson?

• 49:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Tex Watson, the hot guy.

• 49:55Speaker 04

  The hot guy. Oh, I don't remember what Tex looks like. Is he hot?

• 49:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Just a tall cowboy. But somehow more dangerous. Okay.

• 50:01Speaker 04

  Okay, then, well, then probably.

• 50:04Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, is he available now?

• 50:07Speaker 04

  I think I would have been drawn in general to like, the counterculture groups that were happening at that time. Because I'm like, anti-capitalist and shit, you know? I don't know if it would have been that specific one.

• 50:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:18Speaker 04

  But I would, I would want to hang out with the Beach Boy, though, for sure.

• 50:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Absolutely.

• 50:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:22Karen Kilgariff?

  They were on scene. What about the Alamo Christian Foundation? They were the ones that did the airbrushed jean jackets in the 80s.

• 50:30Speaker 04

  Jean jackets?

• 50:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Jean jackets as a, as a way to do, as a way to make money. Christian-based, it was all about the woman, all about the wife in the beginning.

• 50:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And then she died and like, the boyfriend, the husband, took over. There's this really great documentary that just came out about it. I just covered it. That was just, I had never heard of it before. But yeah.

• 50:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I've never heard of it before. This is embarrassing.

• 50:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's Ministry of Evil. Oh, yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 04

  Ministry of Evil.

• 50:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Ministry of Evil documentary, I mean.

• 50:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's kind of similar to Children of God, I think, in that way where they were like, the LA people who were left over from the 60s, still hanging around, you know, partying.

• 51:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Looking for purpose.

• 51:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And they're just kind of like, well, how about this purpose? I think they also used flirty fishing styles to get men in, like, hot women.

• 51:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And at one point, they all lived in an apartment off Crescent Heights, and there was like a-

• 51:20Georgia Hardstark?

  1300 people in the house or apartment?

• 51:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It can't be 1300.

• 51:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it was, it was something like that. But this is what I think, though. It's a good point. Like, yeah, maybe it was 300. I'm not good at that. But that's a good point, though. Like, I wonder about the people who, back then, were hippies and they were doing all these things that were against what they were raised in, and they were still looking for God, but being themselves? I bet that was more- Susceptible than just the people who were just trying to look for a commune. Had nothing to do with God.

• 51:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, we were talking, we've talked a lot about how surprising it is how many hippies who were like counterculture people.

• 51:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:54Speaker 04

  Joined Christian cults that became like hyper conservative.

• 51:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's like they still wanted, they left their home and their hometown and everything, but they still believed and wanted that.

• 52:04Speaker 03

  And they still wanted a community.

• 52:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 03

  And I think that there was something baked into the end of the world. And not having saved money that probably appealed to them.

• 52:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That makes sense.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 03

  I think that's my guess.

• 52:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  So I would probably join it because I have saved no money.

• 52:24Speaker 03

  And I love jean jackets.

• 52:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, here's a big one. Om Shinrikyo, that's the 1980s and 90s Japanese doomsday cult responsible for the 1995 Tokyo subway sarin gas attack.

• 52:38Speaker 04

  We have not done an episode on that yet.

• 52:40Speaker 03

  Although we have somebody who survived it.

• 52:41Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 52:42Speaker 03

  Who agreed to, come on.

• 52:43Speaker 04

  Wow. We do?

• 52:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, we do.

• 52:45Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 52:46Georgia Hardstark?

  My uncle lived in an apartment as with roommate who was involved in that, but that's not interview worthy. I don't think.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  I mean, maybe.

• 52:56Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 52:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Okay, this one, the documentary was incredible. Love Has Won, the 2010 spiritual influencer culture with Mother God, Amy Carlson. It was a new age cult. I don't know if that's more special to you guys in any way.

• 53:11Speaker 04

  Megan would join that one.

• 53:12Speaker 03

  We interviewed her daughter. I think that off the top of one's head, you might say that I would join, but I would not because it was, I'm trying to think of how to word this, a little bit like.

• 53:26Speaker 04

  Too yoga based?

• 53:27Speaker 03

  No.

• 53:28Speaker 04

  Um, no, she's into that.

• 53:30Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  What I'm trying to say is that it was like a little bit more meth rather than like.

• 53:37Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  You know what I mean?

• 53:38Speaker 04

  I hear you.

• 53:39Speaker 03

  There was a high meth vibe there.

• 53:41Speaker 04

  Got it.

• 53:41Speaker 03

  Very cluttered, dirty.

• 53:44Speaker 04

  Oh, that's true.

• 53:45Speaker 03

  Stay up all night.

• 53:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, wasn't it just the one guy?

• 53:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, but like it was just

• 53:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It was never just one guy.

• 53:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, there was too many posters. There was like too many, it was just

• 53:54Georgia Hardstark?

  You needed to be like pristine.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. More like of a, like if goop, if Gwyneth had one, you know, like I needed to be

• 54:01Georgia Hardstark?

  She kinda does.

• 54:01Speaker 03

  Aesthetically pleasing.

• 54:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't want to watch the sunrise.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  No, this was just too many.

• 54:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I totally hear you.

• 54:08Speaker 03

  Trinkets. You don't want to have to be telling people to clean the kitchen. No. Not, not adults. No, no, no, no. If we're all gonna live in this farmhouse together. Cause, cause I'm assuming I would join this one more as an adult, whereas I'm, I'm thinking myself as a teenage sixties girly when I'm joining the Mansons. Just so people have like Like what part of your life is the person who would? Yeah, I hear you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. These are the, these are the days of your life.

• 54:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I still think if you didn't know how they were living and you saw Amy Carlson.

• 54:36Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, she's great. She was dynamic. No, she wasn't great. But again, no.

• 54:40Georgia Hardstark?

  She's a fraud. You would like watch her YouTube videos or something.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  I totally would be susceptible to her. Um, I did have friends who liked her. I thought maybe she was a little crazy, but the interesting thing about Amy is that she did say, I think I'm crazy. And her followers said, no, you're not. Yeah. No, you're not. You're, you're God. How do you get that many followers if you're crazy? You know what I mean? And so she kinda tried to back off from it. She was like, you know what? Never mind. And they're like, no, we're gonna watch you die and wrap your body in Christmas lights. So sad. So that's what's happening here. Which also is very methy. That's

• 55:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That whole thing of like an art project.

• 55:15Speaker 03

  A dead body.

• 55:16Georgia Hardstark?

  As someone who has been on meth before, as a younger person.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  Excuse me.

• 55:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That is very methy. Oh, yeah. That's Georgia's, Georgia's Cult of Meth.

• 55:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I did not know.

• 55:26Speaker 03

  Georgia's Cult of Meth. So you would join those?

• 55:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I would at 14. I would have a 14 for sure. 14.

• 55:32Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 55:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Did not know. Not now. No more, no more meth now, if that's what you're asking. I want to ask a question. Do you guys think, and this might be inflammatory, but is there any like influencers today? Cause I have a lot of friends who are like, you've got to watch this person's videos or you've got to listen to this person's podcast. It changed my life. And I'm immediately like red flag.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  Lola thinks all of them are.

• 55:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:53Speaker 04

  A good amount.

• 55:54Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't have to name names, but is there like a?

• 55:56Speaker 04

  Teal Swan. Obviously, Teal Swan and Benton Home Sorrow, but they've both been already sort of exposed for their behaviors. Yeah, like I said, I love a good person speaking to aliens, but they're all full of shit, most likely. What were you about to say?

• 56:08Speaker 03

  But what if one isn't?

• 56:09Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 56:10Speaker 03

  Just the one.

• 56:11Speaker 04

  All you need is one.

• 56:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you see, you know, the brother and sisters that were the original on Dancing with the Stars? Julianne Hough? Have you seen those, like, she now has some sort of?

• 56:22Speaker 03

  The actress?

• 56:23Karen Kilgariff?

  The beautiful, beautiful actress? She was the dancer on Dancing with the Stars. That it was, she's a blonde, she's, she's really perfect. And she has started what started out as like a wellness company. But she went to do like the live speaking for it and people post the video and they're like, this is absolutely a cult. Like the way, she isn't really saying anything, but everyone's like cheering like crazy. And she's kind of like doing a little bit of a dance, but also is like, we all are gonna get to, uh. And people say it's like, maybe like a little bit of a born again Christian fundamentalist guy going in that direction.

• 56:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Megan's ready to defend a conceit on her face.

• 56:58Speaker 03

  Okay, okay, okay. But like, where do we draw the line with just like being motivated?

• 57:04Speaker 04

  I mean. I think at bolero hats.

• 57:07Speaker 04

  G jackets? If we just cut it there where it's like, sorry, you've gone over the line. We can't trust you over here.

• 57:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, yeah.

• 57:15Speaker 04

  I just have an allergy to the level of certainty that a lot of these people use in how they speak. Yes. And like a certainty about things that like, nobody has certainty on, you know what I mean? I love that. And like, a lot of the people who are selling supplements, for example, like, are there any real scientists on the board of their company? And even they are. The FDA is not checking it out. Right. Like, and what's tricky is that so many of these people will have videos that have really good advice. Yeah. Like, it's not black and white. There's, I hate Jordan Peterson, he's got a couple of good videos on relationships, you know what I mean? Teal Swan has a couple of good videos on relationships. So it doesn't mean that there isn't some value in like some things that they'll say, but like, how certain are they talking and what do they actually know about that subject?

• 58:00Speaker 04

  And are you going to other sources as well for your information?

• 58:03Karen Kilgariff?

  It's almost like it has to have some solid information at base, right? Because it has to grow from somewhere.

• 58:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 58:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So you're like, this is a person that is giving me this, this kind of insight. If there was no real insight, you wouldn't stay.

• 58:15Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 58:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So you're getting a little more of that, like, how can I be on the grind that Julianne Hough is on?

• 58:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And, you know, get my eyes real wide.

• 58:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and that's why arguing with them is so annoying for both of you. Because they have the nugget of truth that they're trying to get you to see. And you see the mirror of lies and that you're trying to get them to see and you both, um, count.

• 58:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And yours is probably harder to explain than theirs is. Theirs is just like, I just do believe it. And you're like, but how about science?

• 58:45Speaker 04

  But I remember, I remember making those same arguments when I was like, still very much a Mormon. I was like, no, but I know.

• 58:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:51Speaker 04

  And so, and like, random people in high school would be like, yeah, but how do you know? And I'd be like, I just know.

• 58:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. And you feel bad for them, or you just like, didn't?

• 59:01Speaker 04

  I felt bad for them and I also felt attacked by them.

• 59:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, of course. Well, you were. That was the attack.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  We were both seriously bullied.

• 59:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Fair enough. Hence, podcasting.

• 59:17Speaker 03

  This is how we all got here.

• 59:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, should we pick, we'll each pick one of these?

• 59:20Speaker 04

  Do we have different cards or the same cards?

• 59:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. What do you have? What's your last one?

• 59:24Speaker 04

  I haven't seen it.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  Are we asking them if they would join a cult?

• 59:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, wait, should we?

• 59:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oh, this one's good.

• 59:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Haven't we butted in on all of these?

• 59:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 59:33Speaker 03

  Didn't we already do it?

• 59:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's pick a favorite.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  You or us?

• 59:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Both of us.

• 59:37Speaker 04

  You guys, you guys go ahead.

• 59:38Speaker 03

  How about that one?

• 59:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. Hoyt Richards is a friend of mine, who we did an episode on him. He was a supermodel, a male supermodel in the 90s, who was modeling with all of the iconic supermodel women. He got drawn into a cult in the 90s and early 2000s. And it was like, it was all these successful people. Would you join a cult full of supermodels?

• 1:00:02Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 1:00:03Speaker 04

  A beautiful people's cult?

• 1:00:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Who am I?

• 1:00:05Speaker 03

  Everyone is trying to do every day of their life.

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:00:08Speaker 03

  It's like, when will I get my phone call?

• 1:00:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, he did end up getting so supremely isolated and they made him give up his career. And he escaped like in the night from this compounded story. He's absolutely crazy.

• 1:00:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:00:20Speaker 04

  But like, Hoyt's hot and...

• 1:00:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Hoyt's hot. Beautiful people know more than we do, right?

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  Sometimes.

• 1:00:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe.

• 1:00:28Karen Kilgariff?

  They must.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  What about, would either of you guys join Heaven's Gate?

• 1:00:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I think early on I would have.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Speaker 04

  Why?

• 1:00:35Georgia Hardstark?

  The alien thing, I think it's just fascinating and like, it never got so big that it felt like you were like anonymous. You were just part of this spaceship, maybe in my twenties, you know.

• 1:00:46Speaker 04

  Are you into aliens? Is that your thing?

• 1:00:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to be proven wrong. I want to be like proven that aliens exist because I don't believe in anything, but that, you know.

• 1:00:56Speaker 04

  I also find aliens very exciting.

• 1:00:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. What about a ghost, a ghost one, a ghost cult? Is there a ghost cult?

• 1:01:02Speaker 04

  Is there a ghost cult?

• 1:01:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't just make up cults. Not with the trust me gals around.

• 1:01:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm officially starting my cult today.

• 1:01:09Speaker 04

  I don't feel like I know of a ghost cult.

• 1:01:11Speaker 03

  There's a cult where somebody channeled somebody dead.

• 1:01:14Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, but like, I want to be haunted. Like, it is a goal of mine to be haunted since I don't believe in anything.

• 1:01:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It's exactly how we feel about aliens.

• 1:01:21Speaker 04

  Okay, great.

• 1:01:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I want to be proven, I, yeah.

• 1:01:24Speaker 03

  This is the beginning of a horror movie, that I want no part in.

• 1:01:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're gonna come back in a year and I'm gonna be an alien and you're gonna be a ghost. No!

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

  Wait, that means I'm dead.

• 1:01:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I honestly remember seeing somebody from Heaven's Gate on the news that, that lived, one of those people that like stayed behind.

• 1:01:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, who are in, maybe aren't they?

• 1:01:43Speaker 04

  Frank, was it Frank who?

• 1:01:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Was he the website guy? They left behind someone who knew how to work the website.

• 1:01:49Speaker 03

  You watched a lot of news, PS.

• 1:01:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. This is, I am older than everybody. I'm a child of the seventies. My parents watched six and seven o'clock news.

• 1:01:57Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:01:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And then Jeopardy. So we, I just had, had to sit there powering through because I wasn't going to stop watching TV, whether it was news or.

• 1:02:05Speaker 03

  Any TV.

• 1:02:06Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I didn't care. So then I just had a lot of questions, but that one, I just remember when that happened, it was so shocking and it was like early nineties, right?

• 1:02:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Like ninety or ninety-one. And there was just an interview with one of the guys that was left behind and they asked him, why did you join? It was like, this is so crazy. Why would you join this? And he was just like, I don't know, nothing else to do. It was like he had kind of like low-grade depression and just was like, I just don't see what else there is to do. And when I saw him say that on the news, I was like, oh, you better be careful with these feelings that you have because it was like, I know that feeling where I'm just like, I just want to sit on the couch and like,

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:02:43Karen Kilgariff?

  not do anything. And it's like that. That is an opening of like, thinking that that mindset is the way it's always gonna be.

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  And you know, people who are really fired up about something, trigger something, and others who are maybe a little more depressive leaning or something. And you can go into it with the savviness of like, this person's kinda crazy. I just need a little bit of like, things to do.

• 1:03:07Speaker 04

  Stimulation.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  And you still get sucked in, even with the prior knowledge.

• 1:03:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I completely understand that. Like, when you see someone who's excited about something, you're like, God, I wish I could feel that. So maybe I'm gonna fake it until I do, or like, maybe I'm gonna force myself to.

• 1:03:22Speaker 04

  Well, and also, one of the things that they do is create strong emotional experiences, and you see you keep coming back. So if you're someone who's like, not getting a lot of those, like, that's gonna be pretty appealing.

• 1:03:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. Also with relationships, like, I'll be like, this guy's a little insane. Like, I'm not gonna fall in love with him. I'm just gonna have some good, you know, hookup situations, like, no big deal. And then, three months later, I'm like, crying.

• 1:03:47Speaker 04

  You're like, I am trapped.

• 1:03:49Speaker 03

  And my friends are like, what is wrong with you?

• 1:03:52Speaker 04

  Literally the same.

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  And I'm like, all of it, everything. And I knew.

• 1:03:56Speaker 04

  It doesn't matter if you know sometimes, because the emotional highs and lows work on you, even if you logically know that they're happening.

• 1:04:03Speaker 03

  If you've ever gotten in a bad relationship, you are susceptible to a cult.

• 1:04:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God.

• 1:04:08Speaker 04

  Everyone on the planet.

• 1:04:11Speaker 04

  Everyone. Some people have secure attachment styles.

• 1:04:14Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:04:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Not anyone listens to this podcast.

• 1:04:17Speaker 04

  Never seen it.

• 1:04:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank God.

• 1:04:19Speaker 03

  Never seen it.

• 1:04:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Those are not our people.

• 1:04:21Speaker 03

  That's a ghost.

• 1:04:22Speaker 04

  Also, shout out, because Frank Leifert was the Heaven's Gate survivor that we had on our podcast, and his story is incredible and very, very heartbreaking.

• 1:04:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That makes me happy to hear. If it is the same guy, it makes me happy to hear, because he clearly was into something. He stuck around with us.

• 1:04:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, it didn't, you know, what he went into. And that's also a thing of like, being young and making that decision, such a final and, final decision traumatic for a survivor, all of those things, where it's like, yeah, can you picture, maybe in 20 years, you will not feel like this?

• 1:04:53Speaker 04

  Well, no. And that's one of the things that the apocalyptic thinking is so powerful, and, um...

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  Staving off and like the two by twos in particular, they when we're all groomed to want to be workers, that's what it's called when we grow up, that means that we don't have any possessions, we don't get married, we're celibate, and we go live in people's houses forever. And a very good kind of person is drawn to that life. For sure. Who maybe has a little bit of OCD, a million different things, but then a very bad type of person is also drawn to that. So you have this dichotomy of personality types that get drawn into these circumstances. All kinds of agendas. All kinds of agendas.

• 1:05:32Speaker 04

  I can see myself joining an apocalypse cult just because it seems exciting.

• 1:05:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

  You know, like sometimes I'm like, I was living in LA for 20 years, it's the same shit every day. Like if I knew the end of the world was coming and like something was going to happen to all of us and the Lord would make like decision, I like I could see that being just, I don't know.

• 1:05:52Speaker 03

  The happiest people I know are planning for doomsday. They have a very strong purpose. It's like packing for a trip. Because nothing else matters, right? You're like, everyone loves a deadline.

• 1:06:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like that's the crossover for my alien doomsday thing. Like that's the alien doomsday scenario.

• 1:06:06Speaker 03

  They're kind of a pair for you. The pie chart of that.

• 1:06:08Speaker 04

  Independence Day.

• 1:06:09Speaker 03

  You're right there in the center.

• 1:06:10Speaker 04

  The movie Independence Day, yes.

• 1:06:12Speaker 03

  Georgia watching Independence Day is the center of that.

• 1:06:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a documentary, but it's a doc, you guys know it's a documentary?

• 1:06:17Speaker 04

  Mars Attacks?

• 1:06:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Mars Attacks, yes.

• 1:06:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. No, that's a good point. That's a good point. And to that, to that good point, like I, as I joked about earlier, like I don't have a savings. I was not taught to think that tomorrow would come. Right. And every time I left the house, it was like, is that what you want to be wearing when Jesus comes back to the world? Wow. Is that what you want to be thinking? Do you want to, do you want to be in the movie theater when Jesus comes back? And you'd be like, no, I guess not. But like, I really wanted to see Clueless. I don't fuck, I don't know. Just a human being. Yeah, I'm just a human being trying to figure it out. And, and a lot of people who were in that group do have savings accounts and were able to think rationally about things and hold both things at once. I think some people aren't and are like, well, the world

• 1:07:03Speaker 03

  won tomorrow, so I'm not going to worry about it. And that was me.

• 1:07:06Speaker 04

  They didn't give you a specific timeline, right? Though, because in Mormonism... It was like, it could be tomorrow, it could be in 50 years. We don't know.

• 1:07:11Georgia Hardstark?

  It was probably tomorrow. And the two by two.

• 1:07:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Karen Kilgariff?

  More pressing.

• 1:07:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I need a time. I'm so punctual. It's annoying.

• 1:07:19Speaker 04

  I need a time.

• 1:07:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's why this, like, time in the world is so perfect for these conversations because the world actually kind of isn't ending. So it's like, just a pressure cooker of so many belief systems and, yeah, trying to dig yourself out.

• 1:07:34Speaker 04

  And we're all looking for answers and we're all looking for reasons to think maybe why the world actually isn't ending. And why it matters if it doesn't and what the meaning of life is. It's a really important thing.

• 1:07:45Georgia Hardstark?

  The belief system is so dichotomous that it's like, how can those people think that? But, you know, they're thinking the same thing about us.

• 1:07:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, the time has never been better for us to have a cult podcast. And we are so excited it's here, guys. We really are. Thank you so much for joining us because we are so glad to have you on this network.

• 1:08:04Speaker 04

  Oh, we're so glad to be here.

• 1:08:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. You guys, trust me, Cults: Extreme Belief and Manipulation debuts on Exactly Right on July 30th with new episodes every Wednesday.

• 1:08:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And go listen, subscribe, and give it a five-star review. You know those reviews are very important.

• 1:08:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, that subscription is important. So thanks for being here. Thank you for listening.

• 1:08:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you guys so much.

• 1:08:26Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:08:28Speaker 05

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:08:38Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:08:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

• 1:08:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:08:44Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:08:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:08:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:08:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:08:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:09:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.

• 1:09:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:09:13Speaker 05

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal. With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search. You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder. Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips. Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium. Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray. Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest. If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. Generously spritz each foot before bed

• 1:09:58Speaker 05

  and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything. Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works. Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye.

• 1:10:12Speaker 06

  Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit Firefox.com.