Tony Bellew: Nothing Made Me Happy Until I Found This

Tony Bellew is a professional boxer and a former British, Commonwealth and World Champion. As well as this, he is also an actor, and the star of Creed with Sylvester Stallone, and the author of last year's bestselling book, Everybody Has A Plan Until They Get Punched in the Face. In this raw, honest and emotional interview, Tony breaks down exactly why people dedicate their life to fighting, and how it’s often because they have no other choice. But also because it comes to fill a need inside of them, and Tony opens up on what this inner need can do to you if you leave it unchecked. Many times, Tony has had to bring his life back from the brink - of poverty, bullying, defeats, and his own emotional instincts. His story is a fascinating example of how it’s often things we’re good at that cause us the most trouble, but when we face that honestly we can come through stronger the other side. Follow Tony: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tonybellew Twitter - https://twitter.com/TonyBellew Tony’s book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everybody-Plan-Until-They-Punched/dp/1841884707 Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Every night, I'd cry myself to sleep. Like, nothing made me happy. Nothing.

• 0:11Speaker 00

  I believe I was put on the stage to fight. It was my father who taught me how to punch. And at 12, 13 years old, that's a powerful tool to show a kid.

• 0:20Steven Bartlett?

  Finding out that your brother was gay being a pivotal moment. Why?

• 0:25Speaker 00

  In their mid 90s, it wasn't cool to be gay and black. That's when, I'd say, the fighting takes shape. I used to brutalise my body, cannibalise my own body. There's fight nights that I've had that I can't remember anything.

• 0:37Steven Bartlett?

  That shield you put up to help you to survive, I'm guessing it's not serving you?

• 0:42Speaker 00

  No.

• 0:46Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things I will never forget is the raw emotion that came out of you after you won that fight.

• 0:52Speaker 00

  You know, people will look at you and think you're a success story. They'll look at the money you've got, they'll look at the scenario and the setup you've got. But ultimately, are you happy?

• 1:01Steven Bartlett?

  Are you happy?

• 1:06Steven Bartlett?

  So, without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:22Steven Bartlett?

  Tony, from reading your book and a lot of the things that you've said over the years, one of the things that really stood out to me, because I think it's been front of mind because a few guests have said this to me over the last couple of weeks, is I was a product of my environment. And your early environment was Waver Tree in Liverpool.

• 1:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39Steven Bartlett?

  Take me back to that environment and tell me what it was about that environment that shaped who you went on to be and who you are today.

• 1:48Speaker 00

  I am a product of my environment and I say that and the way I get to that is because it's no coincidence I'm a fighter. I was just, I believe I was put on the stage to fight. It's something that I enjoyed, something that I like. It's something that I'm not afraid of. Like, fighting doesn't, it never scared me, it never bothered me.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  I think that's a bit weird to be honest, but it's just me. I can't change who I am. And the environment I was raised in definitely helped produce that. You know, from being a kid at the age of ten, me and my old man leaves home. He's gone. And then at that age, me little brother at that age is about six or seven. Me two elder brothers, one had moved out and the other one was on the verge of finishing school. So the elder one who finished school then goes on to further education. He goes to university. So we keep moving on over a few years. And then once I hit thirteen, fourteen, it's quite apparent me younger brother's gay.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  And then that's when I'd say the fighting takes shape and things take shape. So, yeah.

• 2:57Steven Bartlett?

  You said your dad left home when you were ten?

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:59Steven Bartlett?

  How come?

• 3:01Speaker 00

  He couldn't keep his dick in his pants, to the top and bottom of it, and got caught. Basically, fantastic father, but you know, was carrying on, broke me mum's heart and was gone. Yeah, so. A product of most men, to be honest, but that was the reason my dad was gone. So. He was carrying on. He had an affair with some scut bag of a woman who knew he was married with four kids and. Yeah, he just, he let us, the thing in between, in his pants rule his head. And a thing that he regrets every single day for the rest of his life, which he constantly tells me and does, but these are the mistakes men make.

• 3:41Steven Bartlett?

  What impact did that have on your mother at the time?

• 3:43Speaker 00

  It was heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking. As a kid growing up, it's not nice, mate. Watching your mother cry herself to sleep at nights. And the other things that go on in life is heartbreaking. Very, very tough. And you only understand how tough it is when you look back as an older, as a grown ass man. You realise how tough and hard it really is. So heartbreaking, yeah.

• 4:07Steven Bartlett?

  Getting to see the impact of like infidelity in your own home, has it impacted what you're like as a man with your?

• 4:13Speaker 00

  That's deep. I've never been asked to questions like this, but it's all good. Yes, it does add a life where I try my best to learn from others' mistakes and not just me own. So.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  I would never ever in a million years have an affair. Ain't happening, just not going on, not a chance. Things sit with me and I'll say I try my best to learn from other people's mistakes. But yeah, growing up in that period of time and that part of my life was very, very difficult. And you just, you have to learn to adapt. So then at that stage, your home, your home's broken. And my friends then become me family, me, me closest friends that the five or six of us that all go to school together. They become my best friends and they become me, me brothers from there on in. And you learn to cope with life and do things, just cause me dad done what he done. He didn't detract anything from as a father. He was a brilliant father.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  He's been my greatest supporter since I was born. He, I'm as shining light. He believes in me like no one else could ever believe in me, like he adores me. I know he does. And I adored him. I would do anything for me father, but yeah, them, them years when he's gone, very, very difficult. Especially when he goes to prison as well. So that's hard as well.

• 5:29Steven Bartlett?

  You mentioned, um, you're finding out that your brother was gay being a pivotal moment.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 5:35Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 5:36Speaker 00

  We always had, had, had a conscious thought that he was because me brother's gay. He's, he's not. He's not like, you, you hear my brother before you see him, you know, he's out there, he really is. So. We knew it quite early on, but as I say, as time goes on and you see the environment that he's raised him in. He's constantly around women and, and, and yeah, he just adapts and we see where it's going. But as a family, we understand and know, we get him. I love him. He's my little brother. But then for the outside world, it doesn't go down well. Yeah. In the, in the mid nineties, it wasn't cool to be gay and black. Like my brother's darker than me. So he's the same shade as you, eh, our Liam.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  And that just didn't go down well. Yeah. Picked on in school regularly. In the junior school, it's not too bad. It's okay. Because it's kind of just looked at as being you're loud and you're out there. But when you start getting towards senior school level, it's like, oh, okay, he's gay. And then that comes with problems and headaches. And when you're raised in Wave Tree.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Being a kid growing up, I think I seen one gay man, one gay black man, his name was Skippy. No one would mess with him because he was like six foot three and his name was Skippy and he would fuck around and no one would just leave him alone because anyone who did try and mess with him, he was gonna smack them. Uh but my little brother wasn't that way inclined at that age. He's not smacking no one. He'd just take a slap or whatever. So I couldn't allow that to happen. Though anyone who would step to him, I would step to them and it would always be me winning every single time.

• 7:06Steven Bartlett?

  So you found yourself defending him a lot?

• 7:08Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Lots of times, lots of times. I mean, the amount of times I'd have to go up to the school. I remember being a kid, taking my mum's car. She was away. She was on holiday. And I got a phone call saying, your brother's been threatened to be beat up from after school or some kid threatened him. So at this time, I think I was sixteen, took my mum's car, which I shouldn't have done. Uh went and got my little brother and I think I smacked someone to school. Or whoever was waiting for him, I gave them a good beating, driving back home after the young crashed my mum's car.

• 7:42Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then, bloody hell, no one's ever heard that story. Yeah, crashed my mum's car into a taxi. And uh and then set off running for a couple of weeks. So, yeah.

• 7:51Steven Bartlett?

  For a couple of weeks?

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was gone for a couple of weeks back in the day. So, yeah, you could just go missing in them days. And uh yeah, my mum's car was classed as being stolen and stuff like that. So, yeah. Lots of crazy things I've done and and and experienced in my life, but yeah, this is the first time I've actually spoke about that side. So you're the first. Well done. You've dragged something new, something new.

• 8:12Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, yeah. I'm just so genuinely curious because much of my, the reasoning behind my questioning is to really try and understand how someone came to be who they are today and all of these like threads through your life of like the absence of your father, which creates this void where you almost become the man of the house. And then you've got this thing you need to defend in your brother. And and even the race thing I find really interesting because your mother is the same skin tone as me roughly, isn't she?

• 8:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe a bit darker.

• 8:34Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  Similar to you, yes.

• 8:36Steven Bartlett?

  But you, you're like, you're significantly lighter than me.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:40Steven Bartlett?

  So having a mother who is, I I'm I'm guessing considers herself to be a black woman.

• 8:45Speaker 00

  She's black.

• 8:45Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah?

• 8:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:46Steven Bartlett?

  And growing up in that environment where there wasn't a huge, a a huge amount of black people. Did you find yourself, I was wondering this when I was reading about your story, did you find yourself almost like a little bit? Like identifying with that community while also not being considered part of it by, do you know what I mean?

• 9:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course. So you're not black enough for the builders and you're not white enough for the white people. So yeah, I've got that since I was a kid, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest. It did growing up because you're trying to think who do I relate to, what do I relate to? I relate to just being a decent person, trying to do the right thing. I've done enough bad things in my life to, to know that I'm a good person, if that makes sense. So yeah, after, race, colour, creed, it doesn't really bother me. You're either good or you're bad. But yeah, it's not hard. I've always wondered what it must have been like for my mother growing up, because that must have been very difficult, especially for,

• 9:45Speaker 00

  you know, and I know it was difficult for my mother and father to be together when they first got together, because my father's coming into a period of the time where the talks of riots are happening. And for a white man with, you know, a black woman and black kids and stuff, you know, he's had those fights regarding that as well. But for my mother, it must have been horrific at times. It must have really been hard. So, but she's strong. She's a strong woman and she can get through anything.

• 10:12Steven Bartlett?

  I saw that a lot. My mum, obviously, my dad's white, my mum's from Nigeria. So my mum, we moved to Cornwall, right where everyone's white. When I'm like one or two years old and my mum, she just constantly like struggled with it, her car being burnt by people, by people locally, shops being broken and everything. And she really built a huge amount of, I don't know, anger and resentment towards people, which I'm really happy I didn't carry with me. But, you know, at that age, even I had racism, a lot of racism on the playground and stuff like that. And being someone who wouldn't necessarily be a target of that racism, but would be, could identify with the community because your mother's black, was that ever like a thing where you would hear, people would have the guts to be racist around you, but they, but,

• 10:57Steven Bartlett?

  because they wouldn't think you'd be offended by it, but.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  Did your mum give you advice on how to get through that? Or did you just work it out? No?

• 11:05Steven Bartlett?

  Never. I mean, I got in a few, probably the only significant fights I ever got in was someone calling me the N word in school. And I was the only black kid in school. Like there was, obviously Cornwall, like 1992.

• 11:18Steven Bartlett?

  That was, those were the only fights I ever got into. And I didn't really know what it meant. I didn't even know I was. Black until someone called me them, do you know what I mean?

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:24Steven Bartlett?

  So, but did you get some advice on that?

• 11:27Speaker 00

  No, I wasn't given advice. I just found myself, I used to build a bit of a protective wall around myself. So I would let people know I was half black within literally the first couple of minutes of meeting them. So that way it would shield them from saying anything, because if someone says a racist comment and runs to me, I'm gonna smack you. Or I'm gonna do something, so I'm gonna butt you, smack you, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a piece of me mind, I'm gonna do something. So I, I, I'd find myself like meeting people and I'd be like, yes, I'm mixed race, so yeah, my mum's black, my dad's white and, and, and some of them used to look at me just to say, why is he telling us that? And I think because I just don't wanna hear the comments that I'm used to hearing of this word, that word. I'd heard them all my life and people would make smart ass jokes and this, the, you know, degrade black people or whether it would be.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  I've heard every single word and phrase you can possibly imagine and, and I would, and I would only hear them because they were undertone racism. It would be said because they thought I was white.

• 12:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  And, and that was the most frustrating part. So then I felt myself letting people know, look, I'm not white. I'm not black and I'm not white, but I, I'm, I'm just me, but yeah, I'd let people know what I was pretty much straight away. Because if I hear that undertone or I hear that slight comment or dig, I'm gonna respond unless it's a woman. And a couple of times I've, I've had to let that go and it's been women who've, who've made undertone comments. Only once, I think I took it up with a woman because I was working in the Sports and Philippi City Council. And a woman, yeah, said the N word and I was furious and I just had to give it a piece of me mind. And I called her every slut and sweat you can go in. And yeah, and I actually lost me job for that.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, because yeah, saying I went too far. Wish she'd just denied she said it, but I was like, you know, I'm such a quiet, not quiet, but I'm such a, I treat people, everyone with respect, everyone I meet, it doesn't matter whether you can be anything in life, I'm no better than anyone. Whether it's a fucking bin man on the street, whether it's a fucking, I was a lifeguard, whether it's, it's, it's someone who's begging on the street. I am no better than them, but believe you me, they're no better than me. Shouldn't disrespect anyone. So yeah, I gave it a piece of me mind, lost me job and that was the end of that. You learn to deal with moments like that. And as I say, in the environment I'm raised in, I've kind of, I've found a way of shielding myself, protecting myself. And then also eh, me actions now speak louder than me words because of what I've, what I've done with me career.

• 13:49Steven Bartlett?

  When I sat here with Eddie Hearn, it became really apparent that many of the successful people I meet start with this kind of innate desire to please a parent. Eddie's one of them, right? He kind of lived in Barry Hearn's shadow.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  You spoke to a lot of people. Wow. And Eddie, you spoke to them all.

• 14:08Steven Bartlett?

  But he was, when I was reading your story, I saw the same thing. You had this real strong desire to impress your father. And I'm wondering, why? Why?

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Because he's me dad and I adore me dad. I love him.

• 14:22Steven Bartlett?

  Not everyone has that, though.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, because not everyone has a father and I'm very fortunate that I do. Yeah, he might not have been living at home from the age of 10, but he's still my father and he still loves me and adores me. I know he does. My dad would do anything for his kids. He would literally die for all of his children. And that was passed over to me. I think that's why I adore my kids so much. But I always wanted to impress them.

• 14:47Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 14:49Speaker 00

  He's me dad. So, yeah, he's me dad. I want to impress, I want, a part of me wants to impress him and a part of me wants to do more than he's done, do better. I wanna, I wanna, I wanna impress him, but I also wanna go further than where he's gone. And yeah, I was lucky enough, fortunate enough to be able to do it. Especially when it comes, I mean, my dad was a hard man. My dad can fight, you know, really, really fight. But he tried the boxing, didn't stick at it, didn't go right. And it didn't go right because, not because he's not hard enough or tough enough, just because he's mentally, he can't stick with it. He can't take someone jabbing the face off him because, you know, he goes

• 15:32Speaker 00

  nuts. He attacks him with a steel in the second fight. He's got a wicked temper. You would never know that as us as children, but I've seen it literally because I've worked on nightclub doors with him. I've strapped up a bulletproof vest at the age of 19 with him. And we've been working side by side, working on nightclubs. So as a young kid, I just wanted to be like him. So when I realised what my dad was, he was a, he owned a nightclub security company. And he ran them doors brilliantly. You know, the nightlife in our city was fantastic. We had the best club in the city. People still talk about it today. It was called society. And the policy was three to one with women to men. That you can possibly imagine the trouble that would cause and what we would get from the outside in.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  And we created an environment and a place that was unbelievable. And I've watched me dad go through so many problems and fights and things like that. Whether he's been threatened to be shot, his house blown up, ran over, shot, stabbed, every possible thing you can imagine, jailed twice. So, yeah, I just wanted to impress him. So the first step was working on the door with him. Well, no, the first step was going into the boxing gym. That was the first step. Once I found out he couldn't progress any further with boxing, I thought, okay, I'll show you I can. I'll have a go. And it started off as just a bit of a macho thing. I'll show you this, I'll show you that. Because ultimately, I didn't really wanna box. I wanted to play football. I adored Everton Football Club and I wanted to be a professional footballer, but that's just a pipe dream.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  But at the ages of twelve to sixteen, you think you can do it. And I was a big believer in my own beliefs. So I thought, if I work hard enough, I can do it. I've always synchronized working hard with getting to the end goal. I'll get there no matter how hard it is or how big the task looks. If I work hard enough, I'll get there. But that just wasn't the case with football. Unlucky for me. But with boxing, I always watched it with my dad from afar. I wasn't its biggest fan, but I studied and watched because I was intrigued by it. And then upon finding out my dad couldn't stick at it and do it, I thought, okay, I'll have a go at this. And I was just insanely good at punching people. And that was from an early age, I knew, just straight away. He took me on pads. I kickboxed at first.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  Got to a good level at that, good standard, and then knocked a couple of opponents out with punches in the face. And I was only a kid at this age. That shouldn't happen. Dropped one and flattened the other one. Got disqualified for both contests because it was supposed to be semi-contact, you're supposed to tap each other for a point. And then point for you, you go away, let's fight again. Point for you and you get to like eleven points and you've won. I think it was eleven points. And upon knocking people out with punches, it was like, oh, you can't do this. And at this stage, it was me father who taught me how to punch. He showed me the correct way of how to turn your fist over. How to exchange your body weight from the end of your foot to the end of your fist. And at twelve, thirteen years old, that's a powerful tool to show a kid. But I seen how proud he was the minute I knocked them kids out with kickboxing, even though I got disqualified and I lost.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  I knocked these kids out with punches and he was extremely proud. And I was like, oh, this is the way forward. And even though. I I didn't know that then mentally and subconsciously I've took that on board seeing how much he's praised me seeing how much he's he's give me for doing it and I've thought that's the way so I keep flitting and messing around with that thought and then ultimately I end up in a boxing gym basically trying to impress me dad I'm not gonna lie that the that was the first reasons for going into a boxing gym and amateur boxing gym and doing it.

• 19:04Steven Bartlett?

  You knew dad had gone to jail twice you said the first.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  First time before I was born.

• 19:08Steven Bartlett?

  First time before you were born and then the second time when you were roughly around.

• 19:12Speaker 00

  I think I was fourteen fifteen fourteen fourteen fifteen yeah somewhere there there abouts I'd have to go back in the years but around roughly that age.

• 19:25Steven Bartlett?

  What's that like when you find out that your father someone you you admire so much is going to this place called jail where he's gonna be locked.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  That's tough eh when I when I'd found out what he'd done I agreed with everything he'd done so at this age now it's right so someone stole his money so me at this stage me dad owns a pub he's I say he's running a security firm he's got a pub on the side he's got his other job with the probation he's got so many things going on and this pub eh I think the guy stole ten thousand pounds out the safe the manager he was employing to manage took ten thousand pounds out the safe and went running with his money so eh me father picked him up took him kidnapped him whatever they done and eh and demand phoned

• 20:14Speaker 00

  his home and demanded his money back eh and eh that that was told a no so he makes another phone call eh leaves a voicemail unbelievable leaves a voicemail of what will happen if he doesn't get his ten thousand pounds and that voicemail sends him to prison so yeah if someone stole ten thousand pounds from me I'm not leaving a voicemail like but you know I mean you know no one's taking me kids money so and I know I get these these dingos from him so you know no one can steal from me and take your child's money because I don't look at my money as being my money anymore I look at it's the kids and I and I'm pretty sure that's how he looked at it.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  So yeah, he done what he done and then he goes off and I go and visit him and then that's when I think another pivotal moment in my life, going to visit me dad in the big house is very, very tough but sticks with me once again. It's a part of my life where I think to myself, wow, I can never come here. He tells me the most important, one of the most important phrases he ever told me in life. I'm sitting with him and I'm on a visiting order. His partner who takes me out to the visit, takes me there and he says to me, you see a lot of people glorify jail. You see lads in there and like, I've done jail, I've done this, I've done that. My father was the only person I seen say what he said to me and I've never seen it said since. I've got friends who are in jail, grown up with lads from jail and stuff like that. So, and he says to my son, don't

• 21:42Speaker 00

  ever come here. And I said, I'm not going to. He said, can you see this place? It's the house of failure. Everyone in here has failed. There's no winners in here. There's no great people in here. If you're in here, you failed. And it's sat with me forever. Just, it's always sat with me. So, there's various things that I've done that I'm not proud of. There's various things that if I would have been caught for it, I would have been in jail, but I didn't. And at the same time, I'm very grateful for the words that he said because they stuck with me forever. I actually, I've got friends doing life. I've seen friends, you know, being in jail for long periods of time. I've visited a

• 22:23Speaker 00

  friend most recently and we speak to him and I told him the phrase me dad said. And this, this friend of mine has done a long time in jail. And he said to me, your dad was spot on. And he's sitting there, he's done nearly sixteen years. He's getting out soon. And that's what he said to me. He said, your dad is spot on. He couldn't be, couldn't be any more truthful and couldn't be phrased any better. If you're in jail, you failed. So no one should glorify jail. No one should put a badge of honour on it. There's nothing glorious about sitting in a prison cell. Nothing at all. So, but I'm not stupid enough to think that that couldn't have been me. Could have been me with the cards I'm dealt. Could have very, very easily been me. I'm just very fortunate that it didn't happen to me.

• 23:08Steven Bartlett?

  Amateur boxing career starts, are you still being tempted by those kind of temptations? You talk a little bit about that in here.

• 23:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, street life.

• 23:16Steven Bartlett?

  Street life.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely. There's no other way to earn. I've got no qualifications. I've been expelled from school.

• 23:22Steven Bartlett?

  For fighting, right?

• 23:22Speaker 00

  Yep, for fighting, for smashing someone's face in. But while he was stabbing me in the head with a compass. So, yeah, it's a, but these are the, this is the life that, you know, you just, it's looked at as normal. I know when you look back now, it's frightening to think that like if someone stabbed my son in the head with a compass. Wow, it's truly frightening, but it didn't deter me or bother me at all. Crazy. Like, I walked up to him and watched him hold the compass and I knew I only had fists, but it didn't, it didn't intimidate me, it didn't scare me and yeah.

• 23:54Steven Bartlett?

  When you get expelled from school at 15, what do you think you're going to become in your life? Is it, were you still thinking you might, like at 15?

• 24:00Speaker 00

  What's the hope?

• 24:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, if someone said what you're going to be when you grow up, what would the response have been?

• 24:06Steven Bartlett?

  At 15, after getting kicked out?

• 24:07Speaker 00

  Locked up.

• 24:08Steven Bartlett?

  You thought that's what help was going to play out for you?

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I know I wanted nice things. At the age of 15, 16, I always know I wanted nicer things. And I just, at that stage, especially being expelled from school, I had no idea I was going to get them.

• 24:22Steven Bartlett?

  Why did you want nice things? Why was that so important? Because I've read throughout your story about these nice things.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  You just want nice things, you just want. So the nice things that I looked at was like, as a kid, I can't believe I wear it. So I've got a gold chain, I bought this chain. Now, the only reason I have this is because I wanted that as a child and I've never grown up. It's the one thing I wanted. I thought, right, if I can get that, I've cracked it. I don't wear a chain out on my top and show this and all that. That's not me now. But as a kid growing up, I thought that was going to be me, the chain out and the cross and the diamond. You know, you've grown up in similar environments and that's what you want. But I get it because in my mind, I think I got the things I wanted. But I've worked hard and I've done it the right way.

• 25:04Speaker 00

  I did have it in me where I was thinking, I'll do it the wrong way as well. And that that's once again where the touch upon being a product of your environment. Because everybody else is doing it. Anybody else who had nice things where I'm from, everyone was selling drugs. There's no other way to get nice things. No one where I'm from. I I didn't ever see a doctor where I'm from. I didn't see a solicitor where I live. I mean, the first time I found out what a solicitor was, it was because a lorry crashed into our bus on our way to school. My mother took me to meet him. That's the only reason. That's how the only way I found out what a solicitor was.

• 25:32Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't that so crazy? It tells you so much about what's wrong with.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Yes, society.

• 25:36Steven Bartlett?

  Society, right? Why are? Litherland High School, Litherland School in Liverpool.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  I know where it is, but I didn't live anywhere near. I went to a place called Chillwall Comp.

• 25:45Steven Bartlett?

  I went undercover in Litherland as a teacher.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Did you really?

• 25:48Steven Bartlett?

  For a TV show.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  So Litherland School, that's a predominantly white area.

• 25:52Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:53Steven Bartlett?

  It's a it was.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  It's the North End.

• 25:55Steven Bartlett?

  Is it a rough area? Because it felt.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  It's not rough.

• 25:57Steven Bartlett?

  Is it not?

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Litherland's actually nice.

• 25:59Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 25:59Speaker 00

  It's a nice part of Liverpool. You would say Litherland's really nice.

• 26:02Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 26:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:03Steven Bartlett?

  There's really, really, they were like the lowest ranked on Ofsted or whatever. But I remember a kid there in the school, Steve, I went to his house. But he thinks I'm a teacher and he goes, he goes, he goes, I think I want to be a millionaire when I grow up, but there's just no millionaires around here. I've never met any. And he goes, he goes, it's hard to be something that you can't see. And I always remember him saying that. Again, that speaks to much of the problem in society where those kids don't have role models. So they can only aspire to, and it's a big part of the show we did, the, what do they call it? The the networks of people getting young kids from schools to deal drugs. I can't remember the bloody name of it, but so what ends up happening is these adults from out out of town message these kids from Liverpool on Instagram.

• 26:45Steven Bartlett?

  And say, listen, you can make some fifty quid if you just move these drugs for me. And then they end up going through that path, which.

• 26:52Speaker 00

  The cycle of deprivation.

• 26:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  And that's how it starts. But you you also have to understand that in them areas, like I've just touched on, no one was coming from my area and was going to be. Like, it's only since I've grown up and I've realised, so, three of us got expelled from school. There was me, Tinker and Walker, three of us permanently expelled. Eh, now them three people, me, Tinker and Walker, Tinker is one of the lead professors in Leeds University, he was expelled the same as me. Walks is one of the best journalists in the whole of the country for sports. This boy knows everything about football, boxing, the only reason he knows everything about boxing is because the dope didn't like the fact that I knew more about boxing than him. So he started studying boxing, which is insane.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Eh, and then there's me, and we're, I say we're best friends, we grew up, then there was Neil, there was Danzy, he was a footballer, he was set out from the start, he was amazing. He was always gonna be a footballer, he was just unbelievably gifted. So between the four of us there, growing up within two miles of each other, no one from them areas I'd ever seen before or heard of before me had ever come, a professor, an amazing journalist, a professional footballer, and then a professional fighter, world champion. And we were four lads who all went to school together, the closest of friends. And that, that, that's just four out of about the eight of us. Eh, the others have good jobs and stuff like that and they've cracked on with it, just finding out, figuring out their way in life.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  But yeah, that, that wasn't available to us as kids, because as I say, if I could tell you what that professor was doing now, at fifteen, you wouldn't believe me. If I could tell you what the sixteen year old was doing and what was going on as the journalist, you wouldn't believe me. It's only the football lads of us that I could say, he was the, he was the, the goal we all aspired to be as kids because he was so driven. Neil was just, he'd worked so hard when every spare minute he got, he was kicking a ball against the wall. Eh, he was training, he was working, he was playing for Liverpool, he was just unbelievably gifted and, but, worked so hard with the talent that he had, whereas others didn't. And as I say, for me growing up, it was like everyone who had nice things was sons of.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  And that's all you could really say because if I'd have seen a footballer from where I'm from, if I'd have seen a professional world champion boxer or had a seen a really educated Dino Man living where I was, then I might have thought, I can do that. But you don't, you just don't see it. So I go to schools to these sometimes now and I try and talk to these kids and explain to them. I don't feel comfortable going to places. So I got invited to Oxford and Cambridge and I didn't go. I said no. And I just said, I don't feel, what am I going to say to people who've got brains the size of theirs? And they were like, do you understand it's not about the, it's what you've tapped into up here yourself to make work for you? I said, yeah, but I can't, I'm not comfortable going, so I'm not going.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  But I can walk into any school where I'm from and have a chat to them kids because I am them kids. I've been where they've been. I can relate to them and I just need to get across to them. So I do that now with the program and do with the weapons down gloves up. A certain amount of it's in the book, but ultimately it's just, it's hard to get across to the kids in the areas that I'm from. It really is because there is no way out and I understand there's no way out because I was there. I was where you once was with no way out, with no hope, no job. Expelled from school and you just think, what am I going to do? So yeah, it's tough, difficult.

• 30:24Steven Bartlett?

  We talked a little bit about your father there. The other man in your life that you referred to as being a father figure is in chapter two, which is Jimmy.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Yes, what a guy.

• 30:32Steven Bartlett?

  Who was your, I believe your amateur coach?

• 30:34Speaker 00

  Yes, he was.

• 30:36Steven Bartlett?

  You know, it's so blatantly obvious from reading chapter two that he had a profound influence on you.

• 30:41Speaker 00

  Definitely in the short space on time I was around him and with him, I just, I got him. And the very first time I met him, I thought, that's never going to work. So the very first time I met him, he, he basically just shrugged me off and thought, I'm not gonna, he, he obviously seen a talent. So I walked in before I actually had an amateur bout, I walked in, there was under ABC. And I started punching a bag. This had been the second gym I tried out.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  So I went in this gym and punched a bag and he comes over and he says, have you ever boxed before? I said, no, I've never boxed. He said, don't tell lies. He said, how many bouts have you had? I said, I've never had a bout in my life. He said, kids who have never had a bout, don't hit a bag like you. How many bouts have you had? I said, I've had no bouts. I said, but when can I have a bout? To that smart ass comment from me, he replied, you don't tell me, boy, when you're gonna box, I tell you. He said about 12 to 18 months. And I was like, okay, yeah, walked out of the gym and never came back. I went and went straight to a place called Stock with JBC. That's a guy called Mark Kenny. Six weeks later, I have my first amateur bout and all hell breaks loose and I just think then I'm the Waverchase version of Mike Tyson. I'm smashing people. You have to understand when you first have amateur bouts,

• 31:53Speaker 00

  very rarely, very rarely you'll see a stoppage. My first three amateur fights all end in knockout wins. And you just don't see that. Usually a lot of amateur fighters lose the first fight through nerves and anxiety and just being petrified. It's normal. I've only ever been nervous for two fights in my whole entire life. The very first ever amateur fight I had and then Goodison Park. So I've never been nervous for any other fight. Fighting doesn't bother me. I enjoy, like I said before. So I get disqualified, my temper flares in one, in the last bout I have a stock with JBC. Guy spits in my face, I butt him as hard as I can in the middle of the face, referee throws me out. I then go back to Rattanda. This time I've now had

• 32:35Speaker 00

  four or five bouts, four bouts. I go back to Rattanda with my tail between my legs and I go back to Jimmy Albertina. After him telling me it's gonna be 12, 18 months, this guy now knows who I am. He's seen me box, he's seen me fight and he's identified me as a talent. I didn't know that. I'm only told that later on in life because he would never ever gave me an ounce of credit. He never once praised me, not to my face anyway. It was only upon him dying that I found out that he thought I was gonna be a champion. So, which is crazy to think that he could see that because I couldn't see it at that stage. But being with him and spending time with him. He made me believe in him so much and a part of it was because he pushed me to levels of work rate that I'd never seen before, that I'd never thought I was capable

• 33:17Speaker 00

  of. How hard we worked in that gym under his tutelage was as hard as any day that I've had as a professional. It was really tough. He would demand only the best from you. And I don't know how he's seen the things he's seen, but he did. The guy was a genius. He was unbelievable. So, yeah, losing him was a was the first real loss I ever had in my life. I've had lost at this stage, I think I'd lost, I'd definitely lost my uncle at that stage, which was a bit heartbreaking. He was my dad's previous partner in the business and losing my uncle Jimmy was hard, but I could deal with it. It was a progression. He got cancer and he got slowly, slowly died and went away. So

• 33:58Speaker 00

  that was a bit hard to lose him. But the first real tragic loss I had was Jimmy. That was hard. Grief is the worst feeling in the world. It's the worst thing ever.

• 34:08Steven Bartlett?

  Do you remember where you were when you got that call?

• 34:10Speaker 00

  Yep. Paul Smith phoned me. I was there. Paul phoned me and I was just sitting there and he was sobbing on the phone. I said, whoa, whoa, what's wrong? Where are you? And he was just crying. He was crying on the phone. I couldn't understand what he was saying. And then I got the last word. He said Jimmy's dead. I said, don't be stupid. I was with him two days ago because Jimmy had a quadruple bypass and he gets the quadruple bypass and he just comes back too soon. He started training again. He had a bevy and liked pizza and food. Jimmy was just a proper man's man. And yeah, he came back too soon. So when Paul phones me and tells me that Jimmy's gone, I just couldn't believe it. I remember just breaking down, crying, taking another car again with no licence and driving

• 34:55Speaker 00

  straight to the gym. The top Jimmy gave me, I remember sitting at the gym just crying and crying, thinking, what are we gonna do? And as selfish as I am, thinking, what's gonna happen to my career? Because at that stage then, being with Jimmy, I then knew I was gonna be a fighter forever. Once I had two or three bouts, I won my first national championships and Jimmy was in my corner. I fight in the under ten novice finals. I fight against a guy with the same name, Mohammed. He wins the semi-final 10-0. I go in and knock him unconscious six seconds in the final to win my first ever national title, an under ten novice title. Cleaned him out in six seconds. Still a record.

• 35:34Steven Bartlett?

  Still a record, isn't it?

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Still a record to this day. And

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's at that point then, I'm gonna make me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make it as a fighter. After that national final victory. And I remember running back to the corner to Jimmy and jumping on the ropes and saying, I am the fucking best fighter you lot will ever see. And I was in Nottingham League Sports entering Leeds, telling everyone, I am the king of the world, I am the best ever. Now, this is just so embarrassing when I look back. This is a guy who was in his 10th amateur fight.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  And I was telling people I'm gonna be a world champion and they, and they must have been like, what's going on? Gets jumped down from the, a guy I've just rendered unconscious and he's still asleep. I've jumped down off his corner of the ropes after screaming my head off. I walked back to my corner and I says to Jimmy, Jimmy, how good was that? It was amazing, wasn't it? And he just looked at me and said, fucking shite. I thought, just knocked someone out in six seconds and his response was, fucking shite. Lo and behold, he turns away to the other coach and just goes, and just does a face with a little thumb up. I didn't see that once again, you'd have to look back on the video and see him do it. He never gave me praise, but then from what he told other people, like Jimmy, when Jimmy died, he got carried by six of us.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  Past champions, Forn's, present champions, Paul, Smith and Mick. And future champions, who he regarded as the future of the gym, myself and Paul. And I was a future one, bear in mind, I'd only been around at this stage for two years. And he already predicted I was gonna be a future champion, so for them to, to predict that and say it, unbelievable. He'll stick with me forever. I have his name tattooed on my arm. Yeah, so all my tattoos mean something, so yeah, it's a. Miss him every single day, not many days go by where I don't think of him. Yeah, I'm close with his family and I love his lovely wife Bernie and his kids, Michael and James and lovely family.

• 37:36Speaker 00

  They've now got kids and Jimmy's affected so many people's lives, massive, massive part of mine. I will never, ever forget him and I will never let his name go. You know, when I, whatever I am, I will always take his name with me.

• 37:49Steven Bartlett?

  And then you go on and do exactly that, what Jimmy predicted you would do.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, which is crazy to think I'd be winning ABA title, but I won three of them. I don't know if he predicted three, but I win three ABA titles, I box for my country, go all around the world. I have amazing success as an amateur. Bear in mind that I've not got the style to be a good amateur boxer. My style was to render people unconscious. I've never got in a boxing ring and wanted to beat someone on points, ever. Well, that's a lie. One time I did. I got in the ring against a guy called Danny Price and I really liked Danny. I didn't want to hurt him. The only time I've ever got into a fight, I didn't want to hurt someone.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  And yeah, when and then I just, I'd never, amateur boxing is about skill and class and it's a proper sport. Professional boxing is a brutal, horrible business. It's not a sport. It's literally a way of life. You don't live professional boxing the way it needs to be lived, you will get found out every single time and it will leave you in a bad way. Amateur boxing was a beautiful sport. I was part of a team. I was in Rotunda ABC. I had great, amazing teammates, amazing coaches. Understand that these coaches in these amateur gyms, they aren't there for money because there's no money in it for them. They're there for the love of the sport and to help kids. That gym has saved more lives than anywhere I've ever been in my life. Every boxing gym does, amateur gym.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  And people use this and they use the phrase, oh, this thing saves life. It literally does. It saved mine. It saved numerous lads I know in that gym's lives. There's numerous lads there who have been to jail, numerous lads who have been there who have been shot, stabbed, have shot and stabbed people. And that boxing gym has kept them on the straight and narrow. Like there's so many wars that have gone on in and around that gym. But when you went in that gym, that was the safest place in the world because no one would come in that gym and do anything to anyone because that was the safety it had when you went in a boxing gym. And that was because of the respect they had for someone like Jimmy. And that's what he demands. That's what saves areas. It's literally you policing your own neighbourhood.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  Something that has completely gone into these environments, no one cares no more. Like there is no hierarchy within a criminal environment, there is no hierarchy on the street no more because every kid is out for themselves, they do not care. That boxing gym demands respect and no matter who you are or what you've got, you give that respect to that boxing gym. So Jimmy was a massive, massive part of that. And yet we were very fortunate, it's all of us to have him. Without him mate, it would have changed so many fighters' lives in that place and in that community as well. I don't, it's not an understatement when I say saved lives, he literally did.

• 40:30Steven Bartlett?

  You said that the coaches aren't there to make money, but a lot of the fighters don't ever make good money unless they get up, up near the top of the sport, right? And I was, I was actually really surprised to hear in one of the conversations you had where you said you hadn't even become a millionaire until pretty late into your career.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'd become a millionaire until I beat some fellow called David Haye.

• 40:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, when, when you think about what you're doing for a living, you, you, you smashing your, your head up, you're smashing other people's faces up.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:54Steven Bartlett?

  And it wasn't until you fought David Haye, which was in 2017, right?

• 40:58Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 40:59Steven Bartlett?

  Where you, you became a millionaire. I remember that fight so clearly. I remember, I think, I have suspicion I stayed up for it, I don't know why I think I stayed up for it, but it must have been somewhere in the world, but I remember watching that fight so clearly and how it played out. I remember every round and the twists and turns and the emotion surrounding it all. That was.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Madness.

• 41:16Steven Bartlett?

  Madness.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  I'd basically been fighting as a professional all my life at that stage, as well been fighting as a boxer all my life. And bear in mind, when I go into the ring against David Haye, I'm British, Commonwealth, European, world champion. I've achieved everything I possibly can within boxing, I'm still not a millionaire. I'm topping bills, I've fought at the Everton's football stadium, Goodison Park, I've defended my world title at the Echo Rios, you know, I've sold out multiple venues at this point. I've fought on Sky Box Office multiple times at this stage.

• 41:50Steven Bartlett?

  And it wasn't because you were spunking your money at all? You weren't blowing your money.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  I was very wise with my money, I was, I was, at this stage. After I've won the world title and before I fight David Haye, I don't own me house outright, yeah. I've got property, one property that I rent out me first house. After that, I've got the second property that I've got a mortgage on. That's all I have to me name at that stage in life. Why? How does that happen? Because that's boxing for you. Is it boxing? Yeah. Yeah. Really, that's boxing for you. That's professional fighting. Unless you turn professional with a gold medal, then ain't no money at the start. And you've got a bank. How good do you really believe you are? How much do you really believe in yourself? Because you've got to back yourself all the way. So, you know, after five professional fights in me hand, me left hand, third knuckle here snaps in half.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  In the fifth fight in me career. So I get an operation on and off the best surgeon in the world, his name's Mike Hayton. And I didn't even have enough money to pay for the operation. Because I fought in the December. I snapped me hand in half, me, me, me middle knuckle here, this snaps in half. And then I spend all of the six thousand pound that I've just earned to give the kids the best Christmas they can possibly have. On January the 11th, I'm skint, I haven't got a single penny in the bank. I've got a mortgage to pay, I've got kids to provide for.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  But everyone thinks from the outside, I'm this budding professional. And I've got loads of money because I've got a new car and whatever have you. And at this stage. I'm still living in me terraced house in Old Swan in Liverpool. But from the outside looking in, it's like he's on TV. He's fighting. If I had said to people, I earned six thousand pound a fight. Of X amount to lose to the promoter, X amount to lose to the manager, X amount to lose to the trainer. I'm breaking even, I'm lucky if I'm getting out with four grand, three and a half. Lucky. After I paid the cut man, all the expenses and training. Very lucky if you get out with that. You definitely don't clear it because don't forget, she wants her cut as well. The Queen. HMRC. So, you know.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, so very, very tough. So then you have to do extracurricular activities to try and earn some more money and provide food on table for your kids. So it's very, very, I couldn't explain. I know what it's like to be skinned. I know what it's like not to have a penny. I I've felt financial pressure. It's a frightening, frightening thing and I understand why people do the things they do. No one can tell me nothing about being skinned or whatever. People say to me now, you would know what it's like to be skinned. Yes, I would. I know what it's like to be skinned with two kids as well. So it's it's petrifying. So you figure a way out and you get through it. And so all them achievements that I've that I've done and and and had. It was all of the, just to maintain that dream of one day becoming a world champion. The frightening part is.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Imagine getting to that point in your life, becoming world champion and all that, and then thinking. My wife then says to me, and she's not my wife at the time, she's still my bird, well, she'll always be my bird. Eh, and saying to her, she comes down, I win the world title at Goodison Park on a bank holiday Sunday, twenty ninth of May, two thousand and sixteen. Eh, yeah, I might as well show you that as well. That's the belt of win. From Goodison. The Goodison Park, that's the belt of win. I watched that, that was a great fight. I watched it earlier on as well. Thank you. So twenty ninth of May, two thousand and sixteen, I've completed the game. I've completed the story. The the, I'm someone in life who's, I've I've seen through me lifelong dream. My dream in life was to fight at Goodison Park.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  You know, that was the best I was ever gonna achieve. The W B C title at Goodison Park, I've I've lived, I've seen me dream through.

• 45:31Speaker 00

  But I wake up on Monday, well, that's a lie, I didn't wake up, I didn't sleep. So I goes down the kitchen on Monday morning, bank holiday Monday. And my missus comes down and she says to me, that's it, now you've done it, it's time to stop. And I'm like, yeah, I've achieved everything I set out to do and and yeah, it's it's gone well. I said, but girl was so financially far from security that I've got to keep going. At this stage, she now understands, because she used to think boxing was a game. She used to think like, as an amateur, she didn't even recognise it was. She was like, you've got headguards on, it's it's not even boxing, it's just, it's it's basically, it's a game of tic. And I was like, fuck sake, girl, if you only knew. We put a headguard on you and give you a jab, we'll soon have a fucking different opinion.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  But she's, she soon learnt, she soon learnt how I used to brutalise me body, cannibalise me own body. There'd be times when I'd come home from training and not even remember where I've been. Concussion that I'd have, there's fight nights that I've had that I can't remember anything. I've turned up to a arena, had a 12 round fight, come home and not even known I've had a fight. I've been, I've lost weeks at a time with my mind because I've been dieting so hard, my body's just gone into complete overdrive. I've drove home from Sheffield multiple occasions and not remember the single thing of how I've got home and drove, I've been on autopilot. And that's just, that's training camp, that's

• 46:54Speaker 00

  life. So she starts to understand it, how dangerous and real it was as time went on. So once I've won the world title, she's like, you need to stop now, it's time to just be a dad. And I'm like, no it's not, it's, you know, I've got to financially secure us. So then I made the audacious thing to target a man with a pound sign on his head, and the man who had that pound sign on his head was David Haye. The way I looked at David, I knew David from way back from sparring many years ago when he paid me. If you've ever seen the programme Red Dwarf, remember H? Well, David had a pound sign on his head like H had on Red Dwarf to me, but no one else could see it, it was just me. Added to the fact, I knew I could beat him. I always knew. Why? Because I sparred with him 10, 15 years previously. After I won that first ABA

• 47:39Speaker 00

  title, I'm talking to you about, David hired me as a sparring partner for one day. And I'd never ever been, it's still to this day, it's the hardest I've ever been hit. He hit me so hard with 16 ounce gloves on the headguard, it made me back leg kick out like a donkey out of nowhere. And it always stuck with me, but I took it. I didn't go down, I should have went down, I still don't know to this day how I didn't, but I took it, said to him, good shot. And I always remember the look in his face of, how the fuck are you still standing? And that look, and then me being able to go at him and put it on him, stuck with me forever. And then me dropping him later on in the sparring session, let me know, even though he said, he should have given me a thousand pound, David, you'll always owe me that thousand pound. If you drop David, you've got a thousand pound in

• 48:22Speaker 00

  cash off Adam Booth's coach at the time. I didn't get it because he said it was his leg, he had a hamstring problem, that's why he went down. Absolute bollocks. I put him down on one knee, he still owes me a grand. But yeah, I knew, and I actually knew after that sparring session, I'm gonna fight this man later in my career. I told David Price on the day, me and David Price sparred on that day. He was, he was getting ready to fight Mark Hobson and I said to David Price after that sparring session, I'm gonna fight him one day.

• 48:49Steven Bartlett?

  David Price spun him as well, didn't he?

• 48:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, and David said, David said, what are you on about? Pricey said to me, I said, I'm telling you, one day I'm gonna fight that man. And I chased him my whole career. I knew one day I'd get to him. One day our paths would cross. I just, don't ask me why I know that. I don't know how I know it. I ju- I just knew one day I'd fight him.

• 49:10Steven Bartlett?

  And so that conversation at the kitchen table with Rachel, you tell her now at that point, after you've won that title, that you, David Haye's next? And that'll make money?

• 49:18Speaker 00

  I didn't tell her he was next. I told her, my, my, my career is now all about money. It's no longer about my selfish needs and wanting to become world champion. She knows I'm, I can be the most selfish bastard in the world and I've done it numerous times through it in life. I've just fucked off. Listen, when my brother died, I left and I fucked off to training camp. I'm the most selfish bastard you could meet. It, it's disgusting when I look back at it, but that's me. So I'm not that anymore. I've, I'm, I'm a different person than I was then. I, I, I change all the time and I'd like to think, I'm not changing, I'm evolving, I'm getting better. I'm learning from my mistakes, but back in the day when I was fighting, I would just pack up and leave. So, you know, I went through the worst time in my whole entire life at that stage and I just packed up and fucked off.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  So I can do that. And when we lost Rachel's brother Ashley, that was the worst time in my whole entire life.

• 50:08Steven Bartlett?

  So this was after you, you've beaten David?

• 50:09Speaker 00

  That was after the first time I beat him, but yeah, I can just pack up and just get go. And then that was because, you know why? Because I've got a job to do. And when I was fighting, it was a job and it was only until I achieved my goals of becoming world champion that, and then it was a dream before I was world champion. I, I was chasing a dream and a goal. When that goal was achieved, I actually thought, I'm not, I, I'll leave boxing alone. Or I didn't think I'd give it a hundred percent. When I became financially secure, I then realised it wasn't the dream, it wasn't the money that I was chasing. I need something to drive me in life. I've only realised that since I retired. So, yeah.

• 50:49Steven Bartlett?

  Do you remember that feeling of looking at your bank account after that first David Haye fight and thinking, I'm a multimillionaire now and how, how, like, what was the feeling?

• 51:01Speaker 00

  Eddie phone me, so I've been waiting for about eight weeks, maybe longer, might have been, might have been 12 weeks for the box office money to come through. But at this stage, I already know in my mind, in the back, I've now completely relaxed. I've beat David, I've had the crazy results, I've now crossed over as well. I'm now a public figure. Like, as a world champion, yeah, I was known. I'd even done a Rocky movie, for fuck's sake, before this. So I'd crossed over to a different kind of set of group of people. I crossed over to your average person, so your grandmothers knew me at this stage. Things like that, that's when you start, fame really kicks in. But after beating David, it's now gone to another level, because David's a crossover star.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  David's a great looking kid, he's fucking David Haye, he takes his top off, he looks a million dollars. He's David and he's just, he's the king of the world. When I beat him, it goes absolutely insane. And I'm living now in a different world, but I ain't got the money to be living the way I'd like to live right now. I've got enough in me accounts, the business is going well. At this stage in time now, after beating David, I've got enough to start buying properties and building up our property portfolio for the family and the kids, something I'd always planned on doing. But when Eddie phones me, three months later, and he goes, tomorrow, I'm just giving you the call, the box office money's landed. He said, and tomorrow you're going to look in your bank and you're a multimillionaire.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  Congratulations, if anyone deserves it, it's you. Me and Eddie have a backstory, and it's mad to think that. I was, I could have walked away from Eddie. I didn't have, I've never had a contract with Eddie in. I'm probably one of, I'm probably the highest profile fighter he's had, who's made him the most money, who he's never had to sign a contract with, ever. And we dealt on a handshake. Bear in mind, I was a world champion.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  With no deal in place, I was top property. After Goodison Park victory, the way I'd done it and the way I executed it, it was perfect. I then defend me world title and I smashed some guy called B J Flores, like no one's ever done him before. I get rid of him and then I get a phone call offering me one point six million pounds to fight David Haye on B T Box Office. And I say, no. And Eddie tells me on the phone and says, I can't offer you that money, you've got to take it. And I said, I'm not gonna take it. I said, we shook hands and we're gonna see this through. He says to me, so I can't give you that money. I ain't got that kind of money to give you right now. I said, I know he wants to fight me now. He's gonna deal with you. Cause David didn't wanna deal with Eddie. He didn't like

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Eddie. Yeah. And yeah, so loyalty means just as much to me as well. But getting to that stage in my life was very, very difficult. I can't explain to you how hard it was and believing in yourself, backing yourself. When that phone call came in and at this stage, I've got a few hundred grand. I've got a right few hundred grand. It's clear that I've paid me taxes. I've done stuff like that. But at the time, it's in a company. So I'm not really, it's all good. You can be a multimillionaire, but it's stuck in a company. Mate, you ain't a millionaire. Until you've got that money personally and the taxes paid, it's in your bank, which is very, very hard to do. That's when you're a multimillionaire. So I had to wait a long time to get to that stage. But thankfully

• 54:24Speaker 00

  enough, I did carry on believing in myself and I showed that I can be loyal even when tested at the most difficult of times. Because you can imagine, when I've got that phone call that night and this man's offering me one point six million pounds and says to me, I know you don't trust where this money's coming from, but I can have it at your front door tomorrow. That's what this man says to me. I can have it at your front door. And believe you me, this man could. I have one point six million pound in a suitcase at my front door the next day. And, and I say no to it. And at this time, I've got a wife who's listening to this phone call with me. And she's saying, you better have a fucking good plan or you're going out the store. Cause at this stage now, I've got three kids and I've just knocked back one point six million pound and I'm basically worth.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  Four hundred and eighty grand. And that's in a company, by the way, as well. And they should have me one point six million. It just quadruples me net worth. So, and I knock it back. I sit there, still can't believe, I had the audacity to do it, but I mean, that handshake means something. So we do, we agree a deal. When the money comes in the bank, I'm not gonna lie, it was.

• 55:37Speaker 00

  What's it called when something is?

• 55:39Steven Bartlett?

  Anti climax?

• 55:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did. I seen it. And I had to actually go to a cash machine to see. I had, I had online access and I could have done it that way, but I didn't. So I wanted to go into cash and put the digits in. Look at the numbers. So, yeah, I wanted to see the actual digits, zeros on, on the thing and see what it looked like. And, eh. It was over. That's the word I'm looking for. It just didn't, no. That's when I realised it wasn't about money. I just thought. This isn't, this is not all it's made out to be. I didn't, nothing's changed me as a person. Nothing's changed in my life. I've still got three hungry kids. I've still got a wife I adore.

• 56:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. Nothing really changes. You know how it feels.

• 56:24Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I know. I remember this. I had the same anti climax feeling I've talked about in this podcast a million times of. If this wasn't it, Steve, this is what we thought we were aiming for. And if this isn't it, then what the fuck is it? And why was I doing all this stuff for? You know, why was I working hard and being obsessed?

• 56:38Speaker 00

  It makes me question, why do I keep doing what, why do I wanna keep earning? I think now I wanna keep earning for the sake of, I'm trying to pass it on.

• 56:48Steven Bartlett?

  I tell myself that as well, but I don't, I think the insecure kid never dies in you. I think the kid, I, I still, I know it's still in me now. I say to myself now, well, I just need to get to. Nine figures in my bank account. And I go, why? Like, who do I need to show off to? I don't need to show, so, but it's still in me. And then I have, I'd never really talk about this, but I have these little moments where I start looking at Lamborghinis again, just out of the blue. Like four times a year. And then sometimes it overflows and I'll send it to like my manager. They'll go, what do you think if I bought this range, uh, this Rolls Royce? Or I send it to my girlfriend. I go, hi babe, um, what do you think? She'll go, what are you fucking? Oh, I'm sorry. It'll be like I woke up again, like the kid took over the control room for a bit.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Someone sent me a book and I've actually downloaded, I've got it on the audiobook and I haven't done it. Is it the chimp paradox?

• 57:39Steven Bartlett?

  He sat here, Steve Peters, the author.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  I haven't read this and I haven't done it yet, but people have said to me, you should really read it.

• 57:45Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you should.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  And what you're saying to me, kind of, it's the inner chimp, is it?

• 57:49Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 57:50Speaker 00

  Do we all have an inner chimp?

• 57:51Steven Bartlett?

  The chimp brain, which is the kind of irrational, impulsive ego, it's where your anger and all of those things exist.

• 57:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I don't know, I've just been, I've got it on the audible because I don't really read the books no more, actually looking at them, just listen to them.

• 58:04Steven Bartlett?

  It's changed a lot of people's lives.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  I absorb it better, has it?

• 58:07Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I only listen to audiobooks as well, in, other than, I actually downloaded your audiobook for nine ninety nine and then I was going between both of them. So I was going like, I'd read this and I'd read like chapter two and then I'd read.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  Did you understand it okay?

• 58:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Because I always think, I try and, I try and slow down. If I'm talking to another Scouser, it's out of control.

• 58:24Steven Bartlett?

  No, it's always better when the author narrates it as well, both of them. No, you should read that book, Chimp Paradox. If there's one book which honestly helps you understand yourself and you go, I wish someone had fucking told me this twenty years ago about my own brain. It's that with your relationships, why sometimes you argue with your wife, how to get control of those emotional moments. It's all about your chimp, like taking over the brain. And Steve Peters, who's the author of the book, who is like this brains scientist, who travelled all the way down from somewhere at the top of the country, just to sit here and tell me about the chimp thing. Genius. That book, my business partner's an alcoholic and was, had suicidal ideation and didn't know what was out of control with him. And he cites reading that book as the thing that made him change his life sober.

• 59:07Speaker 00

  It's mad the way they've just brought that up.

• 59:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  Because of the way you explain things.

• 59:11Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it's honestly really, and I actually was reading the sec, so the author of the Chimp Paradox wrote like a second part to it. And I was reading it last week in Bali because I was having a bit, me and my missus were arguing about something a little bit. And so I went to the page about emotional control, just to understand why we have these arguments where we just repeat ourselves on cycles.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:31Steven Bartlett?

  And it basically explains in there that the chimp part of your brain, which is the front of your brain, it will continue to do that until it feels heard. So I put the, closed the book and went back downstairs to my missus and I went, I said to her, I said, just want to make sure that you, you understand I completely heard what you're saying. And I repeated back to her what she said. She completely just stopped. Because the minute the chimp part of your brain feels like it's understood, then it's completely pacified. But until then, it will just duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. You know, when your missus is like.

• 59:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know that one.

• 59:59Steven Bartlett?

  So it's how to navigate life yourself and those around you. And it's all, the chimp part of our brain causes us a lot of problems, but.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  I've got to read this fucking book.

• 1:00:07Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, no, you're for sure. I've just done the biggest plug in the world for it.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  That is brilliant.

• 1:00:12Steven Bartlett?

  One of the moments that you talked earlier about you becoming, you kind of crossed over after that David Haye fight. One of the things I will never forget is the raw emotion that came out of you after you won that fight.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  The first one or the second one?

• 1:00:26Steven Bartlett?

  The second one, I believe.

• 1:00:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's when Ashley died.

• 1:00:28Steven Bartlett?

  Because of Ashley's passing.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  Yes, that broke me to the core. Still does. Think about him every single day.

• 1:00:36Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, that shit's horrible.

• 1:00:38Steven Bartlett?

  He was, he was like a brother to you and he.

• 1:00:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's Rachel's brother. So he's basically my brother. All Rachel's brothers are my brothers. My brothers are her brothers. I've known Rachel since she was nine years old. So Ashley's 18 months younger than her. So I've known Ashley since bloody hell. That makes him seven the first time I met him.

• 1:00:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was not nice, mate. And listen, don't get me wrong. It affects her sisters and her brothers and her mother and her father far more than could possibly affect me. The part that affects me the most, I've, I've, I've tried my best to come to terms with losing Ash. The part that gets me the most is how I see her hate my wife. It just, it just kills her to the core. Like, you've got to understand that them two grown up, 18 months apart, they grow up basically like twins. So she adores him, he adores her. They fight, they argue constantly as siblings. And then one day he's here, the next day he's just gone.

• 1:01:31Steven Bartlett?

  And he'd gone on holiday?

• 1:01:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, he'd gone to be his, his best friend's best man. He was just, basically went to a wedding abroad in the most unruly country in the world, Mexico. He just doesn't come home. So yeah, petrifying, mate. I still remember that day getting the phone call and shit like that. Yeah. Horrible, horrible time, but there's not much I can say that hasn't already been said. It's just that the worst time of my life. It's something that I'll never truly understand.

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  Never.

• 1:02:08Steven Bartlett?

  That life could be so unfair.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're just a kid who's innocent, a lovely, lovely lad.

• 1:02:18Speaker 00

  Do you know what, if, if, if, if, what if I could swap places and what happened to him had happened to me, I could half say, well, he's seen his lifelong dream go through, he's, he's lived his life and he's done some bad shit too, so I can kind of accept it if it was myself. I just can't accept such a kid like that who's just such a nice, fucking hell, just loved life, was happy, was always smiling, always telling jokes, the life of the party. Yeah, it's completely unfair, that's why I have the colour red and the A A Angel. People think I'm some kind of baseball fan, I couldn't give a shit about baseball. But, and as people will know, the red A on my arm is for Ashley, and it's in red because he was a Maddy Liverpool fan and followed him everywhere.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  So people would think I absolutely hate red, but I don't now. I actually wear it with a bit of pride, so, yeah, just so many things. Like, the kid looked up to me as well. So, yeah, hard, hard time, me losing him was the hardest thing that's ever happened in my life. Bear in mind, I've lost two grandparents, yeah, seen people die and lots of crazy scenario situations. Yeah, but nothing's ever affected me like that. I was worse than Jimmy, I was just fucking, just here one minute and gone the next, yeah, gone, so, what can you do?

• 1:03:39Steven Bartlett?

  You said that nearly impacted your relationship with Rachel as well.

• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:03:43Steven Bartlett?

  In a big way.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, I mean, I'd hope it'd bring us closer, but I, I just don't think my wife will ever get over it. Well, I know she won't, I know she wants her little brother, and especially when you haven't been given the answers that we should have been given. And, and there's, there's, there is, there is answers, there's people that could give us the answers, but they, they won't, so, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  Very, very hard. I say my heart breaks for me wife and her sisters, and her sister and her brother, and her mother and father especially. A child, a parent should never bury a child in any way, shape or form. That is the most harrowing, frightening thing you could possibly imagine, losing one of your children. How they got through it and how they get through it, I'll never know. So, yeah, very hard.

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  I always think of the selfish things I've done once again. I've just fucking off to camp after he died and just because I had to honour that rematch. I gave me word I'd fight him again and I shouldn't have. It's a regret, but I found a way to get through it and navigated through and got the job done.

• 1:04:52Steven Bartlett?

  You regret giving him your word that you'd fight him or going fucking off to?

• 1:04:56Speaker 00

  Going through with it. Should never have done it. It's selfish when I look back, but that's me.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  I gave me word and when you give someone your word, you've got to, you've got to honour it.

• 1:05:09Steven Bartlett?

  When you say fucking off to camp, is that like a form of escapism where you like the fucking off to camp becomes this distraction where you don't have to face the pain?

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  The pain and the truth. And bear in mind, I'm definitely facing the pain because I just cry myself to sleep every night that I'm in Sheffield. Every night, I cry myself to sleep. But I know my wife's at home crying herself to sleep as well, my kids are with her. Oh, yeah. I do that for three months. So I go to camp for 12 weeks at a time. 14 weeks for that one because I knew I had to lose X amount of weight.

• 1:05:42Steven Bartlett?

  And you're alone in a hotel room crying?

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Yep. Holiday Inn Express in Sheffield, me, the microwave and my iPad. And me just sobbing, yeah. I used to do pitches once a week as well on my own and just sit there. There's times I've cried and I pitched on my own and I've just had a cap on, me hood over and just cried watching films because I just

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  it's my because I can't deal with losing Ashley. I can't deal with seeing my wife in pain. That I can't change, that's the worst part. She's still in pain and she'll, like she, she wouldn't speak to anyone about it. She would, she would just bottle it up. I thought one day she could come to terms with it, but she can't. I know she can't. It's, it's the worst feeling in the world, man. It's helpless. So, yeah, it's tough.

• 1:06:31Steven Bartlett?

  In one of your interviews, when you were talking about this, you you referenced that phase of your life, I think, as being you feeling like you were depressed. Is that is that accurate? You felt depressed through that?

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  If that's what depression feels, I I don't want to tap on that kind of word because I feel people use it these days to the benefit. I feel people abuse it. Yeah, I feel like it's used today as a fucking traction part to gain traction or to. People actually aim from money from saying they're depressed.

• 1:07:00Speaker 00

  But if that's what depression was, yeah, crying yourself to sleep and not being able to solve a problem for the life of you, you don't know how to solve it.

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  And like, nothing made me happy. Nothing. Like, no, no. The only time I was ever happy is when I seen her smile, when I seen her smile, and that was very briefly in that period of time. Like, even now, to the start, and look at her, no, she's thinking about it, brother. Even now, we've been past.

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  Be five years in August. Yeah, four, five years in August. And I know she's thinking about him, but I just know. But I can't change that. And that's the saddest part because as as a husband, I should be able to do something about that, but I can't. You know, that's the one thing, if you're, I'm a husband, I'm a partner, I should be able to be there for her and be the comfort blanket, but I can't, I can't change it. So, yeah, that's hard. It's tough.

• 1:07:56Steven Bartlett?

  You said you'd never spoken to anyone about it, but have you spoken to anybody about it?

• 1:08:00Speaker 00

  No, I went on SAS and that's where I found out I was fucked up. So going on that show. Highly, like, I've never seen it back, so I don't know what I've done, what I've said, some of the things, conversations we had.

• 1:08:13Speaker 00

  I don't know, but at that point, I knew I had a problem because. I went on that show thinking, I've completed life. I've I've I've seen through me lifelong dream. I've done this and I've done that. I've got what I set out to get. I have fucking hell, I'm financially secure, my career's over, I'm retired. I'm supposed to just enjoy getting fat now and enjoy playing golf. And it was on that show that I realised that I'm not, I'm carrying the burden of what's going on. And I'm I'm just constantly wanting to make me wife happy. I'm trying to make sense of how I can fix me wife's situation. That that's what I found out on that show. Because I was just broken down gradually. And to be fair to Mark Middleton, it was his process that that made me realise that.

• 1:08:59Speaker 00

  It also made me realise what's important in life. Fucking nothing is as important as what's on the four walls of my house. Nothing matters. Nothing genuinely matters. I've got some great friends and I love them like brothers, I really do. But I'm sorry to say it doesn't matter. What matters is me misses and me kids. There's no one in this world actually needs me or depends on me to the amount that they need me. I put them kids on this planet, I've got to look after them, I've got to give them the best I possibly can. She's my wife, I've got to be the best I can possibly be for her. Nothing else really matters.

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  Not much. And being on that show made me realise that. Me phone is just a fucking distraction. I don't need to spend all day on my phone. I spend too much time on it as it is, but I'm trying to implement things now when I go home. That phone doesn't need to be there. And like I'm trying my best to just not to leave the phone alone in the house. It's very hard to do, by the way, I'm sure you'll know that as well. But I'm I'm trying to implement things differently in my life and that and that show helped me see that. Definitely did.

• 1:10:06Steven Bartlett?

  At the start of this conversation, you said when you're talking about your brother that you you'd to survive, you'd put this kind of protective wall around yourself.

• 1:10:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:14Steven Bartlett?

  And often when I sit here with, I mean, Patrice Evra is a good example. He grew up in the streets of France and he put this protective wall around himself. His brothers are drug dealing, they're overdosing, dying in the house, et cetera. So he puts this shield around himself to try and survive. And then it's not until his later years at like thirty, forty years old, after he's retired, in his afterlife, as you call it in chapter twelve, eleven of your book. Um, that he realised that protective shield is actually, it's protected him from his early years, but now it's costing him as an adult. It's meaning that he's not able to properly connect on an emotional level. He's running from his pain, he's defensive, he's got a lot of anger. And so he goes on the journey, thanks to his partner, when she turns to him one day and goes, you're not okay. And he goes, he gets angry, what do you mean, I'm not okay? And she says it again, she goes, you're not okay, what's wrong?

• 1:10:58Steven Bartlett?

  And then in that moment at forty years old, he just lets it down. And he says everything from my head teacher abused me, sexually abused me at school. I speak all of these things that happened in his childhood. But I was wondering when you said that at the start of the conversation, that that shield you put up to help you to survive after you finish boxing. I'm guessing it's not serving you.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  No, I don't.

• 1:11:21Speaker 00

  Well, it makes sense, I put she's ever now, I always saying I'm happy and stuff like that, it's actually fucking nah.

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  I get it, I understand the side and I understand, but then. I feel like I've, I've, I've given up. There's certain parts I'll never give up.

• 1:11:38Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 1:11:38Speaker 00

  I just won't because I wouldn't. I can give so much, I can't give everything. So I hope, and, and that could be pain, that could be torment, that could be shit that's gone on in my earlier life, I don't know, but I won't give everything.

• 1:11:51Steven Bartlett?

  You say that on the show, you say, you actually say you'd never write a book.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did, yeah.

• 1:11:56Steven Bartlett?

  Said I'd never see, I'd never see a psychologist and I'll never write a book because I don't want to go back there.

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's not that, and, and I don't want to paint it out to be any worse than any of the kids because it's not. Get me wrong, there's obviously some shit there, but. Yeah, it's just, what's the point, I can't change the past.

• 1:12:13Steven Bartlett?

  So you, you won't speak about it, is that what you mean?

• 1:12:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's nothing to really speak about, so just.

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  Just it is what it is, it's been and gone, I can't change it, so. There's, there's no point in discussing it, like. I went to New York on the weekend and I just, as I got to the airport, I hit a shitload of shit, just. Get to the airport, I'm always early, I'm never late for anything, I arrived at the airport, get there, they said I need to test. So I said, okay, well, no one told me I need to test, so, okay, let's, what do I do, what do I do, goes downstairs, says the first floor. There's now, I'm now half an hour away and I'm not checked in yet from my flight. And I'm at the front of the queue, sitting there waiting for the thing, goes downstairs, gets the test done, okay. Now we've hit another problem, there's a different name on your ticket than there is on your passport. I said, okay, well, sound. I'm not in control of any of this.

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  Young man comes over to me from Virgin and he says, right, you've got, you've got to be, you're playing in 10 minutes and the gate's 15 minutes away. I said, okay, sound, he says to me, can I just say something, he said, we get through this checkout bit and we used to put all your shit in the bag and stuff. He said, I've never seen anyone so calm. You're gonna miss a flight. I said, you want me to tell you something, kid, I said. Why am I gonna get stressed out about things, I can't change. I have no impact, I can't do anything to change. If I start shouting and screaming and blaming the people who are involved in this, it's not gonna change the situation. So why would I get worked up about it? And he said, wow, that was amazing. I've never seen anyone say that. Wish you could tell everyone who comes on Virgin Airlines that problem.

• 1:13:44Speaker 00

  And I was like, it's just a part of my life that I'm in now. So I don't see the point in going backwards and talking about old stuff when I can only change what's in front of me. And I can only change what's on my path. By going back, I'm only just gonna lift the can off more pain and hurt. Or shit that I've done that's wrong. And I, and to be fair, I think about enough of the wrong things I've done or enough of the bad things that have happened to me anyway. So I don't see what talking about them would solve. If I can just keep moving on and keep moving forward. I'll remain in the happy place. I'm trying to remain in the happy place as much as I can. But life's difficult, you know. You know, people will look at you and think you're a success story. They'll look at the money you've got, they'll look at the scenario and the setup you've got, but ultimately.

• 1:14:30Speaker 00

  Are you happy? And that's all that matters. I don't care if you've got a pound in your bank or you've got a hundred million in your bank. Are you happy? And that's all that matters. So all as I'm trying to search for every day is that feeling of happy. Yes, I understand there is a need for money. I would be a fool if I said I don't work for money. Of course I do. I've got to get what I'm worth. But at the same time, I'm a happy.

• 1:14:54Steven Bartlett?

  Are you happy?

• 1:14:55Speaker 00

  Yes, with the life I've created, yes. Do I feel it's complete? No. Do I have unhappy days? Absolutely, yes. Am I happy every single morning when I wake up? No. Not at all. I don't believe anybody is. And if you are, show me your fucking recipe, please, because I'll drink it up. But no, I'm not forever happy. But if I look at my life and what I've generated and what I've created. Yes, I'm happy. I'm happy with that, but I'm still striving. I'm still pushing towards goals. Whether that be work goals, whether that be, I always want to be better. And that's the problem with me.

• 1:15:33Steven Bartlett?

  You said it's not complete?

• 1:15:34Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:15:35Steven Bartlett?

  What would be required to complete it?

• 1:15:41Speaker 00

  I don't know. That's the frightening part.

• 1:15:47Speaker 00

  So I can keep chasing money, I can keep chasing deals, I can keep putting things in place. I can keep looking at that Rolls Royce that I could probably buy, but I can't justify it. Because as I said before, I look at it as the kids' money, and I ain't spending their money on keeping a Rolls Royce, so that just ain't in the plan.

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't know what's gonna make me happy. Try and just keep getting better at whatever I'm doing. Try and keep a working relationship and a lifestyle relationship, both of them work in tandem, so I can remain happy. But keep also enough time to spend with my kids and family, because ultimately I've got to work and need something to focus on. I was retired for two years and basically not heard of, and no one's seen me for 12 months. I just enjoy getting fat.

• 1:16:38Speaker 00

  And yeah, just being one of the lads with me mates, and then I soon realised, shit, I need something to focus on.

• 1:16:43Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  Because life just, I can't just be a home, be a dad and be a husband and just get there and get fat. I mean, what kind of example am I setting to my kids?

• 1:16:54Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a part of it that your life was so full of adrenaline and that's super addictive, that buzz? And then, I mean, fighters talk about this a lot, and Fury's talked about this a lot. And then that struggle of just going back to, I mean, you've said it, and you're not very good at normal life.

• 1:17:07Speaker 00

  No, I'm not good at that. I can definitely, yeah, I'm not good at just being a, I couldn't be a nine to five dad. Like, that in itself is a fucking great strength. That is an enormous amount of strength that you give them a pat on the back. Everyone out there doing nine to five, I've done it, I've tried it. I've worked in Next, I've worked in a pillow factory, I've worked as a lifeguard. I've worked nightclub security, daytime security. I've worked as a labourer.

• 1:17:37Speaker 00

  I've done some mad stuff. I've done every possible thing you can imagine. I understand it. I've sat in an office. I worked as a trainee accountant. So I had my best with that. It's hard. Nine to five jobs are hard. Anything worth doing is hard. Anything to be the best at something is very hard.

• 1:17:55Steven Bartlett?

  This thing that you said you think you're kind of looking for to complete you, as you said, does it scare you that it might not even exist?

• 1:18:02Speaker 00

  It doesn't exist. And that's the frightening part. I know it doesn't exist. But I also understand and know that no one can feel absolutely complete. Because otherwise, we wouldn't be doing the things we're doing. The complete, the complete person doesn't exist. That's bullshit. It's a fairy tale. So you show me a complete, if you can show me a fully complete, happy person, I'll show you a unicorn.

• 1:18:31Speaker 00

  It just doesn't exist, but I'm still chasing it. Well, I'd like to think so.

• 1:18:38Steven Bartlett?

  Quick one. We bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in LA. If you want to be one of those people, all you've got to do is hit subscribe.

• 1:18:51Steven Bartlett?

  Tony, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes a question for the next guest.

• 1:18:56Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:18:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And I don't read it until I open this book. So if money were no issue and completely unlimited, what would that enable for you?

• 1:19:11Steven Bartlett?

  And then they've done the second part to the question.

• 1:19:14Steven Bartlett?

  How would you put it to use to further your vision? So if money were no issue?

• 1:19:17Speaker 00

  Money was no issue. Creator. I'm more than just trying to create things for my kids that I pass on. So I've always thought about when I die. So leaving, making sure they're safe.

• 1:19:29Steven Bartlett?

  Would you give them all the money, though?

• 1:19:31Speaker 00

  What a fucking big question. Would I give them all the money?

• 1:19:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, your kids.

• 1:19:35Speaker 00

  If I was a billionaire?

• 1:19:37Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Speaker 00

  No, not all of it.

• 1:19:41Steven Bartlett?

  Are you not a bit scared? Because you come from, the place you come from is not the place they come from.

• 1:19:45Speaker 00

  Different to this. Yes, I understand that. Even though my eldest son wants it to be the same, which it can never be. He would never understand. He likes to think he can because he was born, where he was born and where he's saved the first few years of his life. He's seen us have difficult times. He remembers sharing a bedroom with his brothers. He remembers. I can't even say that, no, he's always had the best. My kids always had the best, even when I didn't have it, he had it. So, yeah. If that, if that was entailed, if money was no object.

• 1:20:19Steven Bartlett?

  If I sent you a billion right now, not that I have it, but if I did, I sent you a billion, what changes?

• 1:20:24Speaker 00

  I had a billion.

• 1:20:25Steven Bartlett?

  Does it scare you a little bit, the thought of getting a billion?

• 1:20:29Speaker 00

  No, no. Money doesn't, money doesn't mean much to me anymore. It's, it's like fame. Fame is just an expectation. Fame is just an intrusion of privacy. That's all it is. It, it doesn't mean anything. I tell people all the time. Social media is the biggest problem we're dealing with because it's showing everyone the destination and no one the journey. Everyone just sees, no one sees where you came from. No one sees, everyone just sees this point up here and this point down here. No one sees that uphill struggle, the fight to get where you need to get, the hours of determination, of work, of graft, of, of all the stuff you put in.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  No one sees that journey. And if, if I could have that money and show that, it would be more than showing people the journey. That's what I would use that money for. Show people the, show everyone that they're capable of everything I've done. I tell this to people all the time, I am no one special. Guy just stopped me outside. He gave me, shook hands with me. He said, can I show you something? Right outside, and I just pulled up outside here. Just didn't cause you kind of mind. I said, fire away. I said, stop believing I'm someone special. He says to me, no, look at this. He should have showed me a picture on his social media. I have no idea what the guy's name was, but he says, look at that. He said, there's hope for all fat kids. And it was a picture of me after I'd just beat up David Haye.

• 1:21:47Speaker 00

  And it was a picture on his Instagram that was posted months ago, but he showed me. And I said, thank you so much for your support. I appreciate that. Now. If that can't show you I can be achieved and nothing can, that's all I am. Fat kid from Liverpool who never gave in, who never gave up and always believed in himself. If I can do it, so can everyone else watching this.

• 1:22:09Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you, Tony.

• 1:22:10Speaker 00

  An absolute pleasure.

• 1:22:11Steven Bartlett?

  Honestly, really remarkably inspiring. And the thing that I think the mark you left on me as I watched your journey play out is that it's possible to be a really good, honest, legit person who is exactly who you think they are. When you see them on screen, who's willing to pour their heart out, who doesn't need to engage in these like shit talking games that like David Haye was doing. Who can be so real and connect with so many people because of their like, just their realness and their honesty while also being this this unbelievable champion that was considered an underdog for so many years and that did it all. So, thank you so much. It was a pleasure reading this as well because

• 1:22:48Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:22:49Steven Bartlett?

  Your book is as real as you are. And it's, as you say, from the guy outside, it's an inspiration to so many young men that need that. So.

• 1:22:55Speaker 00

  Thank you very much. Just try and be authentic and be yourself. It's all we can really be. I mean, there's no point in pretending to be anyone else or trying to be something that you're not because ultimately in the end, your colours will come shining through and you will see who you are. So, thank you very, very much. It's been an absolute episode and a half coming here, seeing your environment and finding out about you as well. You've done amazing to come from the background you've come from and to do the one you should be very proud of yourself.

• 1:23:21Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, thanks, man. Means a lot coming from you. Thank you.

• 1:23:23Speaker 00

  Pleasure.

• 1:23:24Steven Bartlett?

  Thanks.