Pod Insights StarTalk Podcast NASA and Nichelle Nichols About this episode Famous for her role as Star Trek's Uhura, Nichelle Nichols discusses in part 2 of her interview how she also played a vital role in influencing the modern era of NASA.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. Welcome to StarTalk Radio. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, and I also serve as the director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium. And I want to welcome my co-host, LeAnn Lord. Star Trek geek babe, is that accurate?
0:31 Speaker 01 Yes, absolutely. I wear my Star Trek fandom proudly on my sleeve.
0:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, what we're doing this week is coming up on the part two of my two-part interview with Nichelle Nichols. She, of course, is Lieutenant Uhura of the original Star Trek series and from the Star Trek films. She's an actress, a dancer, you might not have known that, also a singer. And perhaps her most groundbreaking... What does she mean to you? Because she was groundbreaking for a lot of reasons.
1:02 Speaker 01 Oh, no, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, well, first of all, let's be clear, Lieutenant Uhura, on the bridge, slammin' outfit, loved the boots, but was also fourth in command.
1:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Fourth in command, there it is.
1:12 Speaker 01 You know, so if we're talking about, you know, if something happens to the captain and the first officer, and then whoever that third guy was. Whoever it was, wasn't wearing red, we know that. You know, we jump to Lieutenant Uhura, who's going to now command the Enterprise, oh my god.
1:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so it's one thing to be groundbreaking just in your very presence on a show, but we learned, I learned in my interview, that in fact, she has, she's had a major force on American culture.
1:36 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
1:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Beyond just the fact that she was on that show.
1:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And so we're going to rejoin that interview, shown in its entirety, entering now, part two of my conversation with Nichelle Nichols, held in my office at the Hayden Planetarium one week before the launch of this space shuttle mission. And this entire interview we're about to hear is, it turns on an axis that is NASA. Let's pick it up.
2:02 Speaker 02 I would not have been involved in the space program actually if it hadn't been for Laurie. Laurie Garber was involved with the unification of the National Space
2:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, the National Space Society and with the L5 Society, yeah, right.
2:18 Speaker 02 L5 Society becoming one. They called and asked me if I would come as their guest and serve on the board of directors of the new founded place. I said I would be honored. They flew me out, then they said, would you speak on it? So I write a short speech called "Space, What's in It For Me."
2:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Good title.
2:38 Speaker 02 And in the speech, I kind of took NASA to task for not reaching out to women and people of color, that you are losing maybe the next Einstein. The next day, I'm asked if I would come to NASA headquarters and meet with John Yardley, who is head of astronauts, countrywide. And I got so nervous, I said, "Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, what do they want to know? Are they going to put me under the jail?"
3:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Did you do something bad?
3:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, I did something bad. And it turned out they wanted to know if I would assist them in this next recruitment, that they were having problems because women and people of color were not applying. They were staying away in droves. And I sat there and looked at them and said, "Why are you surprised?"
3:32 Speaker 02 And the head of NASA, administrative NASA, was Bob Fletcher. And he was kind of a tall, dignified, stiff man. And what I didn't know is he hadn't entered the room. And we had this little tete-a-tete back and forth of, "I can't do this. People will laugh at me and laugh at NASA and hold me responsible for being another dupe of NASA's." And he says, "Not if they hear you speak five minutes." And I said, "How do you know?" He says, "We were in the audience." And that's when I realized that Fletcher is standing there. Finally, to make a long story short, I said, "I will help you,
4:17 Speaker 02 but I am going to get you the most qualified people of anybody you've ever had. And therefore, I don't want to hear any more excuses, because they are going to apply in droves." I took the contract. I said, and it has to be a contract under my company. And he said, what is your company? It's called Women in Motion and We Mean Business. And he said, fine. They made a contract.
4:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? In space, it's all about being in motion.
4:46 Speaker 02 Exactly. My company was about young people and their education. And exactly what they were talking about is for science and technology and where this takes us because the space is our future and we have to get in, sit in, fit in as best we can and force ourselves into it, but you gotta be prepared. So I'd been doing this. And so, laughingly but meaning it, I said, and I'll bring you all these people. And if there's not one woman and one person of color, I'll be the worst person you have.
5:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'll be your worst nightmare.
5:24 Speaker 02 I'll be your worst nightmare. And I said, and I intend to speak before Congress in order to get this done. And I will return to Congress if this is not done because...
5:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You wanna spook NASA, you're telling them you're gonna say something in front of Congress.
5:41 Speaker 02 I see. Well, I didn't know that then. And you know what happened? John Yardley stood up, put his hand across the table to shake my hand. And that's the first time I knew Dr. Fletcher was in there. And he walked over and put his hand on top. And I thought, oh, my God. Now what are gonna do, Mama?
6:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? As I say, you're the cat chasing the bus and you caught the bus. Now what are you gonna do with the bus?
6:10 Speaker 02 Exactly. Ride it all the way to freedom. And the moment I put out the fact of what I was doing, everybody on television, I took Good Morning America down to the Cape, which they'd been trying to do. And I just said, I'd like to take Good Morning America. And they said, oh, of course. And I called Good Morning and said, are you sure you know what you're talking about? And I said, call NASA, call this person. I did so much that I think they had less than 100 people of color when I started, less than 1,000 of women. And no one was qualified in the areas they were telling. They wanted to go and write. They wanted to have the experience.
6:55 Speaker 02 They wanted to, you know, teachers and so forth like that. But I went after PhDs. I went after those in space science. NORAD invited me. I went to the Pentagon and talked to them. And when I was at the Pentagon, they wanted me to know that they didn't want me on military basis. However, I did talk on radio and television that anyone in the military could not only apply within the military, but they could apply on their own as a citizen outside of the military. One man was listening. His name was Freddie Gregory.
7:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Mm-hmm.
7:37 Speaker 02 He was one of my first recruits.
7:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Higher ranking NASA person and an astronaut, shuttle era astronaut.
7:42 Speaker 02 Absolutely. And he was turned down in the military. He applied outside of the Air Force and NASA grabbed him like that.
7:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Snatched him up.
7:53 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There's people like May Jemison. These are...
7:57 Speaker 02 Ron McNair was in that first group.
8:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We lost him in the Challenger accident.
8:02 Speaker 02 In the Challenger, which was a... Also Judy Resnick was in that group of six women. And four years after that selection, I have a picture that I treasure of Judy pinning me with NASA's highest civilian...
8:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It could be a public service medal.
8:22 Speaker 02 Public service medal. And so it was really a tragic pain for me for that to happen.
8:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Just to lose the Challenger, yeah.
8:32 Speaker 02 But it could have been anyone. And so they weren't just those two. But what was so remarkable is that it changed the face of the astronaut corps forever.
8:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? NASA did not look like America until the shuttle program.
8:49 Speaker 02 Exactly.
8:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's very clear.
8:52 Speaker 02 And until that recruitment and these wonderful men in the high-powered positions who promised me that if I got the qualified people, they were determined to change.
9:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, so it's not simply that you provide the list. Somebody's got to deliver on the other side.
9:09 Speaker 02 Somebody's got to deliver the promise.
9:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And they did.
9:12 Speaker 02 Yes. And so I traveled all over the United States speaking to... What I did was kind of unique because I had nowhere to go and find them.
9:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's right, because there's audacious saying, "I'm gonna find him," and they say, "Now I gotta find him."
9:28 Speaker 02 Right, now I'm gonna do that. And it hit me, they graduate from universities. So I had my office look up the best universities that have strong science programs and would have the kind of people that I'm talking to, and go and talk to them, to the graduating class. Well, they're only gonna be bachelors. Well, what I did was infuse the minds of the possibility.
9:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's half the effort right there, just to even know it's possible.
9:59 Speaker 02 Yes, exactly. And then I talked with the heads of the university about what I was doing, and I asked that they identify their alumni, who would, who might be interested. And from there, I, it just happened like bing, bang, bang.
10:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, I don't know how widely known that story is of how crucial you were to the modern look of NASA. I mean, that's extraordinary.
10:29 Speaker 02 I was on an airplane like every day, every other day, from one place to the, and the organization of chemical engineers were having their annual conferences, and other scientists were having their annual. I went, had my office call them, and I said, "Well, we'd love to have her, but we can't afford it." And I says, "It's under my contract." So, "I will be there if you invite me." They weren't like, "Yeah." Because many of them were Star Trek fans, and they just wanted to know what I was doing. They became my advocates for what I was advocating. "We must change the face, we must, we must find the best."
11:14 Speaker 02 And from there, I found the Ron McNairs and the Freddie Gregors and Guillaume.
11:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah.
11:20 Speaker 02 And people that we then directly contacted. And they said, some of them said, "You're crazy." And I said, "Yeah, but it takes somebody crazy."
11:33 Speaker 02 To move this.
11:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Where would this world be without crazy people?
11:36 Speaker 02 Exactly.
11:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We'd still be in the cave.
11:38 Speaker 02 Einstein was crazy at one point.
11:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The one and only Nichelle Nichols, that was the first segment of part two of my interview with Lieutenant Uhura of the Star Trek series. And what impresses me most about her and about what came out of that interview, Leanne.
11:57 Speaker 01 Yes.
11:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Is the force that she could wield.
12:02 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
12:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? From having been an actress.
12:05 Speaker 01 Oh, yes.
12:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? On a fictional science show, a science fiction television program.
12:09 Speaker 01 Right, if we could just put that in a textbook and go, "Okay, hey, boys and girls, here's what you do with celebrity." We don't all go make sex tapes. We don't. We do, we do positive things. And I mean, and what I love is that she didn't necessarily have a plan.
12:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right.
12:22 Speaker 01 You know, she goes, "I'm gonna do this," and now, "Oh, now I have to figure out how to do this." But that didn't even dawn her.
12:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But it worked because she knew at that time what power over people she had. Otherwise, it'd be really hard to have committed that.
12:34 Speaker 01 Right.
12:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It could be egg in your face if it fails.
12:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
12:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Or it would have been just a forgotten chapter in the history of NASA.
12:40 Speaker 01 Yes, we don't talk about that.
12:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And so, this interview took place one week before the launch of the final shuttle, STS-135. Leanne, I don't know if you knew this, but I tweeted that the movie Space Cowboys, which portrayed a shuttle mission, that was shuttle mission STS-200.
12:56 Speaker 01 Oh, dear.
12:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? How's that for wishful thinking?
12:58 Speaker 01 Wow.
12:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It was so slightly in the future, imagining
13:01 Speaker 01 Slightly, yes.
13:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That the shuttle program would be something eternal. When we come back, more of my exclusive interview with Nichelle Nichols on StarTalk Radio.
13:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome back to StarTalk Radio. We're talking Star Trek because we're featuring part two of my exclusive interview with Nichelle Nichols, Lieutenant Uhura of the original Star Trek series. Influential while she was an actress, being not only female, in a position of command and a position of dignity, where people have to listen to what she tells them, including the captain of the starship. She also was black. And so if you were-
14:01 Speaker 01 And still is. Still is, actually.
14:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Female at the time, black at the time. You had no such role models before she came on board. And so, her very presence was influential. And in this interview, where we focus on her influence on NASA, we learn that that influence went far beyond just her existence as a character-
14:24 Speaker 01 Right.
14:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? -on a TV show. So, did she influence you, Lea?
14:27 Speaker 01 Completely. I mean, me and my mom used to sit and watch Star Trek together.
14:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, it couldn't be completely because you're a professional stand-up comedian, and she wasn't. So, what do you mean, completely?
14:35 Speaker 01 Okay. All right, fine. I can't sing, I can't dance, I've never been on Star Trek. Thank you for reminding me of my shortcomings. However, my mom and I used to watch Star Trek together. Of course, I was watching it in the reruns. And to see-
14:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because you're so young.
14:49 Speaker 01 Because I'm so incre- I'm a fetus. I've seen it on YouTube, I have no idea what you're talking about, Neil. She, just her presence, just pure dignity, like you said, and class, and just, she just radiated that. And she made that sort of presence normal.
15:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Hmm.
15:06 Speaker 01 Do you know what I'm saying?
15:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Excellent point.
15:07 Speaker 01 So, I'm in that odd generation where I didn't necessarily always see black actresses as maids. So, she was one of the first people I saw. And I'm like, oh, that, well, that's what we do.
15:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Any brilliant actor makes something extraordinary seem like it flows like the breeze. So, she not only influenced you and your sense of self, she also influenced the person who would become an astronaut, and who happens today to be the head of NASA.
15:30 Speaker 01 Oh.
15:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? General Charlie Bolden. Let's pick up my interview from my office at the Hayden Planetarium one week before the launch of the last shuttle mission, and find out her influence on the current head of NASA. I heard that the head of NASA became an astronaut because of you. Is that true?
15:47 Speaker 02 Oh, my goodness. That's one of the great rewards of my life. General Charlie Bolden.
15:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Charlie Bolden, the current head of NASA.
15:56 Speaker 02 The head of administrative of NASA. Told me that when I was recruiting the first women and minority astronauts for the space shuttle program for NASA, he heard me on the radio and on television, and he was inspired to apply.
16:15 Speaker 02 He kept up with everything I was doing regarding the astronaut application program. And he decided at the last minute to wait for the next.
16:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The next astronaut class?
16:28 Speaker 02 For the next applications. And mine was so successful that he said, I'm going to apply the next one, which came up pretty soon. And when he applied, there wasn't any question, they just snapped him up like that. At one time, he called me, he says, so I look at you, Nichelle, as my mentor. And I thought that was just the most rewarding and beautiful things anyone had said to me.
16:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And that's just as astronaut, then he becomes head of NASA.
17:01 Speaker 02 That's just as astronaut.
17:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's a lowly astronaut.
17:04 Speaker 02 And listen to this, I didn't even know back then that I had influenced him. And so now he becomes head of NASA. And I'm being honored by the California Space Society. And so I had a table to invite friends. Unbeknownst that they'd been trying to get him, I picked up the telephone, dialed 202 to NASA and asked to speak to Charlie Bolden and ask him if he would be my guest, in which I was being honored for my works.
17:47 Speaker 02 It was after that that I learned the story that I just told you.
17:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's incredible, because you're calling him up.
17:53 Speaker 02 Yes.
17:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And he's only there because of you.
17:56 Speaker 02 No, not, don't give me that much credit. But he's there because he's so dedicated and he's.
18:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, that's an easy way to get to the head of an agency.
18:06 Speaker 02 Yes.
18:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So I'd like to speak to the head of the agency, and he's only there because I put him there.
18:10 Speaker 02 But I didn't know that then, I didn't know until he later told me. He didn't even tell me when I finally talked to him, he wasn't there. But I was just amazed, a day later, he called me about 6 o'clock in the evening, he says, Ms. Nichols, here's Charlie Bolden. And I'm going, Charlie? I'm, he's to me, he's General Charles.
18:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? General, you're General Bolden.
18:36 Speaker 02 Charles Bolden. And that is, I said, oh, oh, oh, yes. And then he told me the story. And he said-
18:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? If you're accustomed to calling someone General Bolden-
18:46 Speaker 02 Yes.
18:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Charlie just doesn't-
18:47 Speaker 02 Charlie does, it took me forever to call him Charlie. I still refer to him this sometime as Mr. Administrator.
18:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Mm-hmm.
18:56 Speaker 02 But he told me, "I tell you what, on the date that you're there, I'm in China, and so I cannot be there. But what I'm thinking is that Laurie Garber-
19:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's a deputy administrator of NASA.
19:11 Speaker 02 We will make a tape in honor of you." And they made this incredible tape with the two of them standing side by side. And it was very serious and honoring me and for they had the work that I had done in recruiting the first women and minority astronauts for the Space Shuttle program, and how proud they were to know me, and so forth. And then, just at the end, and I'm standing there about to go on, and nobody told me it was there, and they played this tape, and tears are coming down my eyes, and two people so important to me.
19:52 Speaker 02 And just at the end, they turned, and because I told you this was very serious dedication to me, right? They turned to the camera and said, with this Star Trek sign of "Live Long and Prosper", and said, and with this little smirk on their face, "And live long and prosper, Michelle", with their hands.
20:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There it is.
20:17 Speaker 02 And the audience just collapsed. Now I've gotta go on stage and thank you. I've been thinking for a long time, and I shared it with Charlie Bolden a few months ago, and it was so extemporaneous. It came out of my mouth before I knew it was coming out. And we were having a meeting in his office in DC. I said, "I have decided to form a foundation, the Michelle Nichols Youth Foundation, for the advancement of the studies of science, technology."
20:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The STEM fields.
20:57 Speaker 02 Science, technology-
20:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Engineering, mathematics.
21:00 Speaker 02 Engineering and mathematics, as our president has put out. And I found myself saying it, I didn't even know I was going to do it, and it's attendant performing arts.
21:13 Speaker 02 And suddenly I knew where I came as an entertainer performer and my interest in science and technology and our future.
21:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Who would have thought that one of the greatest forces to operate on NASA as an agency would be someone with formal training in the performing arts? You can't even script that.
21:34 Speaker 02 My place in the performing arts has matched me with my interest in space and space science and what it means and where we're going. It is our future. It is or it isn't, but it is somebody's.
21:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It is. Somebody thought that that's a future we can go to.
21:52 Speaker 02 And someone has to do each time along the way. If it looks like it's fading, someone's got to do something. That's why I brought Dawson and this traveling space museum where he takes space memorabilia and rebuilds it to a fifth of the scale. And young children can come in schools, not look at it like a museum where you have to stand behind the bars and somebody explains to you what this one is.
22:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Look but don't touch.
22:23 Speaker 02 They have hands-on experience. And it has changed so many young people's lives. And that's why I've been so proud to work with him.
22:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So you're still at it, basically. So you've got the Youth Foundation, you've got the Traveling Space Museum.
22:40 Speaker 02 The other thing that is so powerfully engrossing for me is the power of Gene Martin Mary's dream that has taken millions dedicated to being what is euphemistically known as fandom, but is really a movement of people who believe in everything that I have now covered.
23:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The fanbase, created by Gene Roddenberry. You're one of those fans, Leanne.
23:11 Speaker 01 I am, I am. I'm in the legacy. I'm Star Trek, I'm Next Gen, I'm DS9, I'm Voyager. I'm, yeah.
23:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And what I, it's not just simply that there's storytelling in space, there's, there are deep, sort of, dare I say, mission statements that reveal themselves. My favorite is, I've heard Nichelle Nichols say it before, every episode of Star Trek, no matter how fun or serious, you part the curtains and there behind it is, is a deep sense of morality about how we should treat each other and how we should conduct ourselves.
23:45 Speaker 01 I've heard her say in the past that Gene Roddenberry was writing morality plays.
23:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Every, every episode?
23:50 Speaker 01 Every episode. You walked away, you learned something, you know. One of my favorite episodes was with the kids and there was this entity sort of controlling them. And his thing that he kept saying is, "As you believe, so shall you do." And I walked away from it like, "Oh, wow, that's kind of New Agey."
24:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Before New Age was a thing.
24:10 Speaker 01 Right, exactly. It was the Space Age.
24:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The Space Age. So Nichelle Nichols, of course, is extremely popular in all of the Star Trek conventions, and it's these conventions that were, that kicked in after the original Star Trek had, had gone off the air, that sustained a buoyant force of public interest. We've got to take a quick break, but more StarTalk when we return.
24:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're back on StarTalk Radio. I'm here with my co-host, Leanne Lord, talking about Star Trek and Nichelle Nichols, who played Lieutenant Uhura in the original series. So Nichelle not only played her role with dignity and poise, she, that fact was, was, was recognized by society all around us. And it, that, that influence continued way beyond the show, right up into modern day. And in my next clip, we find out how she's, she's, she's at Kennedy Center. And you don't go there unless people are like. Yeah, that's big time. That's big time. Let's find out all about the Kennedy Center.
25:38 Speaker 02 I was honored to partake in a major NASA salute to the history of space at the Kennedy Center.
25:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Kennedy Center in Washington.
25:50 Speaker 02 In Washington DC. And they asked me to sing.
25:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh.
25:55 Speaker 02 The Star Trek theme.
25:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, my goodness.
25:57 Speaker 02 Yes. And, and then later they said, we'd like one more thing that you do, which you do the captain's log.
26:08 Speaker 02 And then come out and sing to a 25-piece symphony orchestra. Conducted by Emil Decou. And I was so honored that I started shivering.
26:27 Speaker 02 And then they came and said, oh, we'd like to add one more thing. I said, oh, what? Well, we want when you come out to sing, there'll be a stool that they will bring to you when you finish singing. And we would like Emil to interview you. So they didn't announce me. I was in the brochure, but they didn't announce me and they had me to begin. Space, the final frontier.
27:00 Speaker 02 Offstage, on mic, right? And then I walked out, the light picked me up with a marine, on the arm of a marine escorting me out. And when I hit that light, it was a boldly go where no woman or man has gone before. These are the, that audience went insane. They just jumped up screaming, which shocked me. I'm going, wait, what?
27:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, wait, wait.
27:31 Speaker 02 What did I do?
27:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What I missed?
27:33 Speaker 02 What did I miss?
30:02 Speaker 02 And
30:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This is like the episode This Is Your Life.
30:04 Speaker 02 This is my life and they're all sitting out there who've charged my life. And I'm singing a song that Gene Roddenberry wrote the lyrics to. It was surreal. And it was like a dream. You walk out of a dream and it comes true. And you're waiting for the bubble to bust, but it never did.
30:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It never did.
30:26 Speaker 02 There were so many.
30:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because it was all real.
30:28 Speaker 02 And there were seventeen. We're in the Kennedy Center. Do you understand what I'm saying? Kennedy was so important in our lives. One month before Kennedy died, my father died, was assassinated, my father died. My father and Kennedy were the two most important men in my young son's life. We sat up together when he was just barely eight or nine years old. When the first man went to the moon. Kennedy spoke to the highest level of your ambition, of your
31:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Aspirations.
31:12 Speaker 02 Aspirations in life for this planet. Seventeen of the surviving Kennedys were in the audience and came back to the green room to meet me before and after the show. And they were trackers. I mean, and then after the show, they were like, speechless, coming and some just touched me and said, "Thank you." It was like you write a novel and put yourself in it. And all your dreams come true in this novel.
31:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Allow me to clarify something.
31:52 Speaker 02 Yes.
31:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There are famous people who could get any kind of reaction out of a fanbase. The reaction that fanbase was giving you. Wasn't simply because you were famous, but because you influenced them. That's a different kind of fame.
32:09 Speaker 02 Yes.
32:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's, that's, that's a fame where people's lives are changed.
32:14 Speaker 02 Yes.
32:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because you were born into this world.
32:17 Speaker 02 Yes.
32:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Whereas any number of famous people, in my life would be no different if they came or went.
32:21 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
32:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Even though we can all recite their name and we know where they live and, you know, their family. There's a difference there.
32:29 Speaker 02 Mm.
32:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And so, yeah, maybe a novel you could write and put yourself in it. But in fact, it's not your novel, it's everybody else's novel that you empowered.
32:38 Speaker 02 Yes, because I couldn't make this up.
32:42 Speaker 02 I think I'm a pretty good writer, but I couldn't make this up.
32:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You've been listening to StarTalk Radio and my interview with Nichelle Nichols, Lieutenant Uhura of Star Trek fame. Just learning what else happened in her life after, after the original seasons of Star Trek were canceled. The show went away, it was resurrected a couple of decades later, became a new TV series. It became a movie and more series followed it. And its influence has continued to be felt this day. So, Leanne, my, my, my co-host here.
33:17 Speaker 01 Yes, yes.
33:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A Trecker herself.
33:18 Speaker 01 Yes, I am unabashed.
33:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, this vision of the future that Star Trek has portrayed, I think it gives us all hope, right?
33:25 Speaker 01 It does. I mean, it's, it, for me, it's a very hopeful series. You know, that, that we are somehow risen above the squabbles that Earth is mired in now. We're, we're one planet, we're one people. There's no money there.
33:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right.
33:40 Speaker 01 I, I'm not sure.
33:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Now, I have to confess that in, in the sixties, when I did see the original run of Star Trek, I was a bit distracted by how many alien females Captain Kirk would say, "Oh, that, that is a kiss." What is kiss? Oh, that's an Earth emotion that we express with each other. So Kirk was getting it.
33:58 Speaker 01 Kirk and the green chicks.
33:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The green, the green babes.
34:00 Speaker 01 Apparently that's the key to Star Trek happiness in the future.
34:04 Speaker 01 That's the subtext we're all looking at.
34:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I was a little distracted by his love life.
34:08 Speaker 01 Right, right.
34:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? His intergalactic love life, but behind all of that, clearly, there were messages.
34:13 Speaker 01 No pun intended.
34:16 Speaker 01 I'm sorry.
34:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's okay. She's a professional stand-up comedian.
34:19 Speaker 01 Yes, don't try this at home, kids.
34:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? She's allowed. So, the vision for the future, it was hopeful, in spite of the fact that there were enemies and things.
34:26 Speaker 01 Yeah. That we're gonna work this out, we're gonna work it out diplomatically, we aren't gonna just go to phasers right away.
34:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You can set the phaser on stun.
34:34 Speaker 01 You can set it on stun.
34:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Our guns we have today can't do that.
34:37 Speaker 01 No, no.
34:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We sort of can't. I guess it's called the taser.
34:40 Speaker 01 The taser, yeah, well.
34:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We've gotta take a quick break, but more StarTalk when we return.
35:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This is StarTalk Radio. Welcome back. We're talking about Star Trek because we're about to hear the last segment of part two of my two-hour interview with Nichelle Nichols, an exclusive interview in my office. I'm happy to say she came to, she was in my office.
35:28 Speaker 01 Yes, yes.
35:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I felt like I was in the presence of royalty, by the way.
35:30 Speaker 01 And you were, sir.
35:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Let's pick that up as we chat about, she's on her way to Florida to view the launch of STS-135, the last of the space shuttle mission.
35:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So you know of the space shuttles that are going to different cities, New York City's getting the Enterprise, the very first prototype space shuttle.
35:50 Speaker 01 Yes.
35:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And there was some angst.
35:52 Speaker 02 That was named after.
35:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Named after Star Trek.
35:55 Speaker 02 And I didn't want it to be the first one because I knew the first one was gonna be a prototype and was never gonna fly.
36:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, it would never go into orbit, for sure. However, however, what's different about the space shuttle is that it can land like an airplane, and that's what it tested. We didn't, I don't need something called Enterprise to test going in orbit. We've been going in orbit since 1962.
36:17 Speaker 02 Yes.
36:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I visited the Intrepid Museum, which is gonna get the gift.
36:21 Speaker 02 Yes.
36:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And they were worried about it not having gone into orbit. I said you should celebrate the fact, because there can only ever be one prototype.
36:28 Speaker 02 I later, like I said, I wondered if when the President was gonna name it the Constitution, I said, "Good," because the next one would be... And then when he decided once, I started thinking, and just like you, I said... That's good because that one will never be obsolete.
36:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Never, because it'll, it is what it was.
36:50 Speaker 02 It is a prototype.
36:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Prototype.
36:52 Speaker 02 And it sets the tone for.
36:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Not only that, tragically, the first orbiting space shuttle mission was.
36:59 Speaker 02 We won't talk about.
37:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I know, yeah, that was, that was.
37:02 Speaker 02 Where's my guys on that? I just, I suffered with that for a long time.
37:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, Columbia was not coming back and that was S T S one.
37:11 Speaker 02 Yes, I'm so proud to say that next week on, I'm flying out as NASA's guest.
37:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? To the, to the launch of S T S one thirty five.
37:22 Speaker 02 For the final launch and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. But I will be taking part in the festivities and, and the programs and I am so honored.
37:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Star Trek had the fortunate fact of playing during the Apollo era.
37:43 Speaker 02 Yes.
37:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And so you had an attendant set of news stories, reporting on our journeys into space right alongside each episode that aired every week. But I'm not that hopeful for the future of America. I mean, I don't see science being embraced. Today, I just don't feel it from the public and I see science illiteracy abound. You know, it's one thing to be scientifically illiterate, but it's a worse thing to be illiterate and not know that you're scientifically illiterate and you're making decisions that you think are informed but are not.
38:17 Speaker 02 Or you're making decisions for people that you either think are informed or are not informed and don't care.
38:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And don't care.
38:26 Speaker 02 It's about power.
38:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Power. And so I'd like to think that science fiction can guide that.
38:33 Speaker 02 I'm not worried about the country so much as I certainly worried about right now the short sightedness that's going on. I'm concerned that a man of great mind or potential so beautiful that it could have taken us to a higher place than the first black man that sits in the White House that had dreams beyond dreams.
39:02 Speaker 02 Who I really feel only wants to do a majorly good job. And mistakes along the way, yes. But I think it's incumbent on us as human beings and part of this race on Earth is to add to the goodness that we've been given on this earth. Talk about America. Whether America survives or falls is America's decision.
39:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Michelle, I'm gonna hug you on the microphone, if I may.
39:33 Speaker 02 Thank you.
39:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What do hugs sound like? Let's try that. Michelle, thanks for being on StarTalk Radio.
39:45 Speaker 02 Thank you so much.
39:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh my goodness. That's Michelle Nichols.
39:49 Speaker 01 That's on air.
39:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That was an on-air hug.
39:51 Speaker 01 Yes.
39:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's what that was.
39:53 Speaker 01 And can I just say, so that we put it out there now, hello, my name is Leanne Lord, and I admit that I know that I am scientifically illiterate.
39:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That is the first step.
40:00 Speaker 01 That is the first step.
40:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? First step towards the deep understanding of how to...
40:03 Speaker 01 Yes, I know that I don't know a lot of stuff.
40:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? ...affect your life.
40:06 Speaker 01 That's why I'm hanging out with you.
40:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So my lament, by the way, is not the end of the shuttle era. There's everyone going to the final launch, and they're all sad, and I don't lament that. I lament the fact that there's not another vehicle sitting on the adjacent launch pad ready to go when the shuttle ends. Nobody lamented Gemini when Apollo was sitting right next door.
40:27 Speaker 01 Right.
40:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No one said, "Oh, I'm gonna miss the little capsule with two people in it because we had something else to embrace that was going places."
40:33 Speaker 01 Let me ask you this.
40:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So that's my big concern.
40:35 Speaker 01 What happened to that ambition, though?
40:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's still there a little bit. Here's the problem. In fact, there are monies in place to work on what they call the new generation heavy lift vehicle that'll get people back to work. Heavy things like cargo. People, crew...
40:49 Speaker 01 And Americans who have gained weight. Yes, I got... Yes, that was the subtext. Got it.
40:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Is that why they're calling it the heavy lift?
40:55 Speaker 01 Yes, because we're not gonna lose weight.
40:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They didn't call it heavy lift before.
40:58 Speaker 02 They didn't need to.
41:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, so they are working on it. However, the delivery of this product and the destinations it will go and for which they have been set for it will fall outside of the watch of our current president, even if he serves two terms. So we live in an era where a president can end up promising something and then like be on the beaches in the Bahamas when it's time to actually make the thing happen.
41:23 Speaker 01 So you think he should have sped that timetable up?
41:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's what Kennedy did. Kennedy said, "We're gonna go to the moon before the decade is out." And if he was a two-term president, it would have happened under his watch. And so...
41:34 Speaker 01 But that comes back to ambition. What happened to that? What happens to... Listen, we're gonna get this done. We're gonna get this done by Tuesday.
41:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Exactly.
41:40 Speaker 01 And in under 140 characters. I mean, where was that ambition?
41:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We need... That's what we need. I want it done. I want it done yesterday. And I want it done on budget. And I want it done in 140 characters.
41:50 Speaker 01 Ooh, now I didn't say on budget. I didn't throw that in there.
41:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This has been StarTalk Radio. And I want to thank my guests. And as always, I bid you to keep looking up.
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