From the Horrors of Zeus to the Intricacies of the Patriarchy's Hold on Society, 8 Years of LTAMB

It's that time again! The podcast's eight year anniversary is upon us... Today (and this Friday!) Liv answers listener questions about any and everything. This is the podcast's direct RSS feed https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/67a1934c95d7c2516aeb49a7. Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.

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• 2:10Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv. And I'm here with another Q and A episode. It's been a while, actually. I I'm surprised I didn't do one before this. It has been a wild year. It's funny trying, or being forced, rather, to just continue on in this capitalist hellscape while fascism knocks on the door of the West, while we watch the West crumble under the weight of its horrors. Anyway, um, I, you know, that's where we're at. That's where we're at. We are, we are persisting.

• 2:49Liv Albert?

  And I, I'm really excited to be here for a Q and A episode. These are always really fun for me, and I'm going to remember to do more of them. I couldn't believe that the last one I did was in February. I was looking back and like, absolutely thrown. Um, because again, like I blink and, and so much time passes, like, it's wild. In any case, I am here with answers to your questions. This is the time we, I don't know, it's the time of year when I ask for your questions because I have fortunately made it a bit of a tradition to do these kinds of Q and A episodes for the podcast's anniversary episode, because that's right.

• 3:33Liv Albert?

  As of, I think, Friday or Saturday, this podcast has been going for eight years, which is fucking wild. It's wild. What? Again, time passes in a blink. Um, but I have been doing this for eight years, and that is eight years of honestly getting to work with this concept and this world that I just love so much. And fortunately, I have a good question to start right off the bat, which dives into, or at least touches on, just how long I've been doing this and what that means, because it turns out eight years is a really long time. What a world.

• 4:30Liv Albert?

  From complaining about the horrors of Zeus to the intricacies of the patriarchy's hold on society, this is eight years of Let's Talk About Myths, baby.

• 4:55Liv Albert?

  One of the things that I am most excited by and most proud of in terms of the way that I, as a writer and storyteller and human, have evolved over the last eight years is how I see not only the ancient Greek world and its mythology as a whole, but really specifically the ties to the patriarchy. I think that over the years, I have developed the kind of knowledge and resource base and just existence that has allowed me to like really

• 5:33Liv Albert?

  understand the intricacies of what is going on now, what was going on back then, and to really be able to like reevaluate how I see not only these stories, but the kind of world itself. And before I ramble too much about that, we're going to a question from Laurel, which is from back in March, so I hope you're still listening. But this question was really perfect for how to start off this episode because of everything I just said. So Laurel says, "I've listened to your podcast from the beginning, and I've loved seeing how you and the podcast have transformed over time. When you put out the episodes, when you re-listen to some of your first few episodes, I really noticed

• 6:16Liv Albert?

  that the way you talk about goddesses has changed. I like how you interview academics to discuss how patriarchy shaped the creation, documentation, and adaptation of the myths over time. I feel that Hera is one of the most misunderstood gods with how the patriarchy handled her stories. Not only that, but the way we want to view the stories from our modern feminist lens, she's the hardest for us to view in a better light." And then Laurel goes on to talk about Jennifer St. Hera and ask about it, but unfortunately, I haven't read it. This will likely come up again, but...

• 6:49Liv Albert?

  Given how much time I spend researching Greek mythology for both the podcast and my own fiction, which may hopefully will eventually exist, I find that at the end of the day, I'm not picking up a Greek myth retelling as something to read for fun. As much as I love Jennifer St, she's a fucking delight. We met for the first time in April in person and oh my god, just the loveliest. And I've heard incredible things about Hera, but that's where we're at. But I can talk about the rest of that question and Hera as a goddess, because yes, yes to all of that. I really am consumed by this way of interpreting and

• 7:32Liv Albert?

  understanding the level of patriarchal control. And I don't want it to sound like I'm just spouting that word nonstop. I think I did at the beginning. I understood it, but like, I get it more now, you know? Because what we're talking about is not just that like, terrible things happened to the women, or they didn't have rights, or freedoms, or control over themselves or their bodies, whatever. Like, all of that is true. But to me, what's most interesting and most nefarious, dark, fucked up, is the ways in which the patriarchal control manifests, but which are hidden, which are not on the surface, which you actually

• 8:13Liv Albert?

  have to understand, like, all of the history beyond it in order to really comprehend. And then on top of that, how history as we know it is also shaped by the patriarchy. Because history is not objective. History, like everything else interpreted by humans, is subjective. And how we interpret something in history is based entirely on our own selves and our knowledge, our pre-existing, like, core values, but also our biases. Like, all of that is inherent to being human, and it makes everything so valuable. And it also

• 8:57Liv Albert?

  makes everything really skewed, depending on where that type of thing is coming from. And that's what I've learned over these years, is how not only to like, find- You know, the most I can in terms of variations and translations and, and all of these things that give you this like better grasp on what's going on, but also how I've learned to kind of read between the lines or just really understand the breadth of loss that we have because Hera is, Hera is an incredible example of this because in the stories that we have of her, you know, she is regularly punishing the women for her husband's mistakes, for her husband's

• 9:39Liv Albert?

  violence, for her husband's affairs, you know? She is always blaming the women and it, it makes it really easy to blame Hera or to, you know, misunderstand her, I guess. And all of that is true, like objectively in the sources that we have, like that survive, Hera looks really bad and she looks, yeah, like really shitty towards women. But when you think about where those stories are coming from, not the overall, not the original stories themselves, but the, the thing that we have, because you have to remember

• 10:16Liv Albert?

  that the thing that we have is the product of almost 3,000 years of patriarchal intervention, for lack of a better word, like the women almost certainly had their own stories. They almost certainly were telling their own versions of these stories to each other, to their children, to anyone that would listen, right? We know, I mean, it's the very nature of humanity. There is no way that variations on all of these stories and entirely new stories weren't being told by everyday people, be they women or enslaved people or someone else on the sort of periphery of

• 11:01Liv Albert?

  Quote unquote, society. Because remember, particularly in Athens, but this is broadly true. The men were the ones who were the citizens, but not just like men overall. It was like this really specific subset of men who kind of counted, who, who got to contribute to this type of stuff. And that's not to say that only citizens could contribute, but all the same, the stuff that survives for us today had to go through 3,000 years of not just preservation, but also like in like, like I said, intervention in the in between. And then also just like whoever's story ended up getting preserved in whatever way, right? Like, think about the conversations you have on a daily basis. Like, no one's writing that down. It's not going to survive.

• 11:45Liv Albert?

  And that's what was happening in the ancient world. And when it comes to Hera, I just think she's this kind of like microcosm of like all of the damage that was being done to, to like society broadly. Because the thing about patriarchy, just like the thing about toxic masculinity, is that it ultimately harms almost all of us, right? The, right now, think about the world we're living in today. The people right now who are benefiting off of patriarchal capitalism as it currently stands are the 1%. They're, they are the billionaires. They are the fascists down south. They are, they are the people, they're not us, right? They're not the everyday people that are benefiting.

• 12:26Liv Albert?

  Capital, capitalism has reached this point where most of us are no longer benefiting from it. It is only the super rich that are. And that's so similar to that world that we're coming from is that like, all of these stories are being told by very specific subsets of people. And I think that the more you understand about that, the more you can kind of see what else might have existed. Like Hera punishing all of these women, like, yes, it is part cautionary tale, part, you know, men writing women, you know, it reminds me of. The, the, there's a great ongoing kind of meme joke, whatever, about men who write female characters and how terribly they often do it. And that's what Hera reads like to me. She reads

• 13:11Liv Albert?

  like a woman written by a man, like this assumption that a woman would inherently blame the other woman and not the man for doing the damage. And that's not to say that the women wouldn't, but a large part of why any woman blames the other woman is not inherent. It's not that the other woman is to blame. It's that women are easier to blame for power dynamic reasons, for simplicity, all of that, for emotional reasons. But also, like, who is determining, you know, what is happening there? Like, I feel like I'm just rambling, but it, it really just, it gets in so deep, I think, and particularly with Hera, you know, I, there's a, there is absolutely an argument to be made that like, she does all the things

• 13:56Liv Albert?

  she does because she can't punish Zeus, because he is the king of the gods, because he is a god at all, because he is her husband, all of these things. And it is that, but it's also so much more than that, right? It is, it's a bit of propaganda. It's an attempt to keep women from trying to blame their husbands. I mean, and not to say that it's intentional propaganda, it's inadvertent propaganda. And I think that that's what a lot of surviving Greek myth is, is this inadvertent attempt to control women, even if they don't realize that's what it is, but that's what it is, right? Like, the stories of Hera are meant

• 14:36Liv Albert?

  to keep women pitted against each other rather than the men. The stories of Medusa, as I've now said countless times because I can't unsee it, the story of Medusa and the Gorgons and so many, so many of these like female monsters are about the very concept of a woman that doesn't want to have sex with a man, a woman who has the ability to say no in whatever way. The Gorgons could say no. And that's why they had to, that's why Medusa had to be killed, but why the Gorgons overall had to become these. Horrifying and seductive creatures because today so often Medusa is seen as seductive when there is nothing inherently seductive about her story or the ancient sources at all.

• 15:20Liv Albert?

  But it's this idea that a woman who is capable of defending herself, of saying no, of ensuring that a man cannot, you know, assault her. That kind of woman can't just be, you know, allowed to exist in this realm. Like she has to be turned into a monster because otherwise what would the other women do, right? How many would try to stand up to the man? How many women would stop blaming the other woman if Hera stopped blaming the other women, right? Like, again, I don't think that this is like intentionally being done. I don't think that there's like any man behind the curtain being like, ooh, like a evil laugh. This is how we will control women.

• 16:05Liv Albert?

  But I think that when you tie it in with the fear that men had in the ancient world, in ancient Greece, so specifically, the fear that they had that their wife would have a child that wasn't theirs, like that is the fear that underlies everything in Greek myth and particularly Athens and like classical Athens. There is this fear that if your woman is ever given the chance, she will become pregnant by another man and the son that she has may or may not be yours. And that is the biggest threat to the patriarchy. And so when you see that, it's too easy to see it like everywhere.

• 16:47Liv Albert?

  And that was a very long answer, but something I'm really excited to talk about. So I hope you liked it. Let's move on. Now, just to be real quick about this one, because I don't have a great answer. Someone named Nush asked about a religion called hermeticism and its association with a figure called Hermes Trismegistus. And I don't know anything about that, honestly. I know that that's a like an epithet of Hermes, like a form of him. And they've made this connection between the Egyptian god Thoth. I trust you on that. I have no idea. There is this period of time later. In the ancient Greek world, particularly, I think, like, well, definitely into the Hellenistic

• 17:30Liv Albert?

  period and then later under the Roman period, because like they were always in really close contact with Egypt, but it wasn't until the Hellenistic period that they were like in Egypt, right? Like the Hellenistic period is when the Potomies, who were like Greek Macedonian, were controlling Egypt after the fall of Alexander the Great, like a whole thing, right? Um, and so they had like a lot of much closer contact. And that's when we start to get these kind of like combo gods. Um, there's like ISIS worship that was happening on the Greek mainland and into Italy. And then there's like a lot of different associations between these Greek gods kind of melding with these Egyptian gods. I would love to know more about it, but honestly, it's kind of just beyond my wheelhouse. Um, I did have an episode once

• 18:14Liv Albert?

  about ISIS worship. If you're curious about that, it doesn't go into Hermes or Thoth, but generally, great question. Don't have an answer, which is somewhat similar to this next question from Bree, but I will have a slightly more satisfying answer, maybe. Bree says, can you talk about the Anemoi, Kabiri, Korabantes, Korates, and Dactyls? I've heard that the ecstatic dances compel wind spirits and were basically an ancient form of sound therapy. Now, I don't know anything about the sound therapy. That sounds interesting and cool, but when it comes to those, uh, groups of characters, because they are groups. So the Anemoi are the wind gods. The Kabiri are honestly this like really

• 18:58Liv Albert?

  confusing, um, group of gods that kind of appear in multiple places. I've heard of them most in Samothraki, if you can believe it, because I read a lot about Samothraki. But one of the main things we know about them is that we don't really know anything about them. Like they're this group. We know they had drums. We know they did these dances and they were playing instruments and it was like meant to be very real ritualistic, very ecstatic, like all of these things. But we don't really know details. There's not a story. There's not really even like names of the individual Kabiri. It's a whole thing. And the Korabantes, I think, are a very similar.

• 19:36Liv Albert?

  The Kourates, I think, again, very similar. I honestly, it's, they're, they're great examples of this long-running thing that always comes up in Q and A episodes because I'm unfortunately happy to remind everyone again and again, it remains true as much as I wish it wasn't, but that there are like an enormous, enormous number of characters from Greek myth which have no stories attached to them and which if, if there is like knowledge and resources beyond the overall storytelling and the ancient sources, tends to be hidden really deep within academic works, academic journals and papers and all of this, which honestly,

• 20:18Liv Albert?

  not only do I not really have access to any kind of like database of those, but also I don't have the bandwidth to like dig through them, let alone read like a ton of academic stuff in order to do this. I wish I did because like I said, these characters have always really interested me, particularly the Kabiri. But they really lack any kind of ancient sources and that is where I tend to want to find everything. So unfortunately, I have almost nothing, but I do know that yeah, there was like, there was definitely this like major drum-based dance that was associated with most, if not all of those names. Um, and if anyone has resources, like I would love to know more. They are really interesting, but

• 20:59Liv Albert?

  like so many characters, they just totally lack in stories. There's probably a bunch of stuff about the Kabiri, if not more of them, in the, um, very, very, very late epic, Nonus's Dionysia. People will often find references in the Dionysia and then be like, this is the myth, or this is the mythological backstory. And while I love what I have read of the Dionysia and it's absolutely a valid, like interesting source, it's not a valid or relevant source when it comes to what is like quote unquote mythology, because Nonus, who again, he wrote, it's primarily about Dionysus, if you can believe it with the name Dionysia.

• 21:43Liv Albert?

  It's essentially like the life of Dionysus and like all of these different characters around him. And so absolutely the Kabiri are associated with that story. And I imagine also at least the Corbantes, if not more, but because he was writing like not only in a late period, he was actually writing in the Christian period. And so we don't know, like he is too question mark to be considered like Greek myth. He might have been basing all of his stuff on like pre-existing Greek myths that actually date back to the time when we can conceptualize them as myths that are like, you know, cultural stories about the world rather than like this one book written by one man, which is

• 22:25Liv Albert?

  what the Dionysia cut is. But we really don't know. And he wrote the longest surviving epic. It's like 48 books. It's unhinged long. And there's like one translation. So it's really difficult. And I would just generally say it's not a good resource in terms of if you want to know the actual like cultural mythos, but it is generally an interesting piece. If you can sit through 48 books of ancient Greek epic written in the Christian period. It's a whole thing.

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• 24:57Liv Albert?

  All right, next up, we have one from Linda from Calgary. Thank you, Linda from Calgary. I will greet you as a fellow Canadian and will just ignore the jokes I want to make about Alberta as someone who grew up in Victoria. Linda from Calgary says dragons. My daughter loves Greek mythology because I've been telling her all about it. She also loves dragons and wants to know about dragons in myth, like how they guard things and their teeth grow into armed men, stuff like that. I can think of the dragon on Colchis that Medea helps Jason, ugh, prevail over, the dragon guarding apples in a garden somewhere. And I think Cadmus also says dragon teeth should produce armed men. Are there any others? Are they all the same type of dragon? And do they use the same word in Greek? Are there any depictions of mythological dragons or on ancient vases or anything?

• 25:41Liv Albert?

  And do they look like Western depictions of dragons? Or like Chinese dragons or other forms? Do we know where dragons originated, mythologically speaking? Any other interesting facts about dragons? I love this. I love how dragon centric it is. I hope that this is gonna be satisfying and at the same time, it probably isn't. So first and foremost, though, to jump off with the exciting bit, the word dragon comes from ancient Greek. The ancient Greek word is dracon, like with a K, but otherwise spelled the same. The less exciting thing is that word mostly referred to snakes. So it was like really big snakes.

• 26:20Liv Albert?

  Um, and the, so the ancient Greeks absolutely had dragons. You're quite right. So the, there's the dragon in Colchis, which yeah, like Medea helps Jason defeat. He sews the teeth and these men um grow from it and then fight him. And then we are, I believe there's connections in some sources that actually make that dragon's teeth like the same teeth that Cadmus then sews and grows his own men when he is working to found um Thebes and Biocia, but there's a little bit more going on there. So the, there's another dragon in Cadmus's story, which is like this uh, the dragon of Ares. So it's guarding um this uh, it's called the Isminian Spring. There's this dragon guarding it.

• 27:03Liv Albert?

  Cadmus has to defeat this dragon and then the whole thing goes on with Thebes. Um, so the dragon teeth, I think are the one from Colchis, but like not the dragon. It's a little confusing. Again, we're talking like multiple different sources, lots of hundreds of years in between and Cadmus's story generally is not particularly well sourced, except in known as the Dionysia, which again are the constant, constant cause of frustration for me. However, the idea of dragons, um, I mean, definitely like etymologically, very Greek. Uh, the Greeks had a handful more. We have like, so we have those that are like sort of explicit dragons, but then we also have python,

• 27:42Liv Albert?

  which is, if you can believe it, a big snake, but also considered a dragon or a dracon in ancient Greece. And that is a snake slash dragon that Apollo kills and then like on that spot is where he founds the Oracle of Delphi and so that's where like the word Pythia comes from, but also obviously the word Python. And so we do have dragons, but they're not what you it's they're not what you want them to be when you're thinking of Western dragons or Chinese dragons. Honestly, I think that they are, I would guess, or I would like make an educated guess based on what little I've seen. There's not a ton of imagery, but there are definitely

• 28:27Liv Albert?

  images in general and I would, based on the overall snake-like quality, like they're way more like a Chinese dragon in terms of like the Chinese dragons being also like very snake-like, right? Very long. I'm less familiar with like how I would define the Chinese dragons like head. I'm literally just picturing, I used to live right by Chinatown in Victoria. So I'm just picturing the like dragons in the parade. And so like the snake-like nature, yes, but less, I think they feel like they have like almost like a lion head, which in Greek, they're way more, they're just like big ass snakes, which can sometimes be like visually beyond a snake. So one thing I would

• 29:07Liv Albert?

  suggest you Google if you want is the the Colchis dragon. There is a piece of pottery where like Jason is being like thrown up by the dragon. It's quite delightful. If you look up Colchian dragon, you're gonna get it and it's great. But otherwise, yeah, like so they definitely have dragons and they are, the word is very Greek, but they are not, they're not flying, they're not like going around being like wild. We don't have this idea of like breathing fire or anything like that. But they are there and they are, I think.

• 29:43Liv Albert?

  If not the same, like more interesting than the more traditional ideas of dragons, because to me, they are much more connected with the real world, with the, the reality of the ancient Greeks at the time. Like, not to say that, I know that there's so much going on with dragons and their mythos on dragons overall, very cool. But what I like about the Greek ones is it's this way of them conceptualizing, like, the danger of the very real wild animals that are around them, be they like really big snakes or like, you know, just generally these much more like, um, direct threats. And then also snakes in the, in Greek myth in ancient Greece are like inherently connected with the underworld.

• 30:25Liv Albert?

  They're cathonic creatures because the idea was that like snakes live in like burrows or holes or whatever in the earth. And so they would like come out of the earth. And because they were coming out of the earth like that, the, the mythos conceptualized them as being capable of living between the world of the living and the dead, which is like in the earth, right? And so what I really like about them is that they're like this liminal creature that like exists sort of in two different places, living and dead and all of that. And then so to conceptualize that as like a really big scary dragon, that its teeth can then be planted in order to grow humans? Like, you're still getting that really interesting connection to the earth.

• 31:09Liv Albert?

  And then, um, this is less so in the case of the Colchian dragon, but definitely in the case of Cadmus's dragon in Thebes is that when, so in Colchis, if I recall, Jason like sews the teeth and then he has to actually like fight the men. Whereas in, um, Thebes, he sews the teeth of this dragon. And from that dragon, from those teeth, these men spring up. But they become, um, they're called Sparti. Uh, and they are actually considered to be like the first men of Thebes. And they are born from the earth. So what comes with dragons and snakes in this way?

• 31:51Liv Albert?

  Is not only this connection to the living and the dead and the underworld, but also explicitly a way of understanding indigeneity, which I think is super interesting. So like in the, um, the ancient Athenians also had stories of how they were kind of born from snakes, um, from the earth specifically, but also via snakes. They're not like explicitly dragons, but like, there's like this, these mythological early kings of Athens are like half snake because of that connection with the earth. And there's a whole story of how they're born from that with this connection to snakes. But again, we're getting this idea that humans are being born from their own land and therefore are indigenous.

• 32:36Liv Albert?

  And this goes right into the modern world, which is that as a Canadian, oh, hey, you're Linda from Calgary, you get it. As a Canadian, we have, um, French on like literally everything, right? So like, I know a half decent amount of French. Can I talk in, can I speak in it? Absolutely not, but I know a fuck ton of words because it's everywhere. And one of my favorite translations is that indigenous in French is, and I'm probably going to end up pronouncing it more like Greek, so apologies to the French, but it is arctanes. That sounded so Greek. Basically it's etocthenes. It's this, they are literally like cathonic is the earth. Uh, the understanding in Greece of being like born from the earth and thus indigeneity is being etocthenes.

• 33:20Liv Albert?

  In Greek, it's arctanes. And in French, it's something like that, but with a much more French sounding accent and, um, word. If you can believe it, my family is generationally French Canadian. I am a terrible example. Thank you for the question about dragons. That was a delight. Okay, next, um, I have one from Lily here and I'm going to turn out to talk about it too much because, oh my God, there's just, the work is endless. Lily says, I love the premise of the memory collective. That's what it is. Can you describe the positives and negatives of disseminating history through a public platform and provide any tips for getting involved? I'm still figuring out my career path and I'm not sure whether I should follow through with academia or delve into social media.

• 34:03Liv Albert?

  One, I recognize your handle Lily's Art History. You've been posting some fun stuff that I think I've been tagged in or have seen. Either way, way to go. Um, so the memory collective. It's it's kind of been on a pause for a bit, primarily just because the workload is such the like, I I don't know how to do things that are um not making any money. They go to the bottom of the list, and that is so frustrating because I really want to, but we're working on it. Um, for me, like, I mean, the Memory Collective generally is is this way of me trying to bring us together for mutual support, for mutual growth, for just generally like solidarity in um

• 34:44Liv Albert?

  in this history realm, but just really specifically solidarity to the people who don't want to sell out to capitalism, who want to keep doing this because it's important, because sharing history from um other perspectives than the status quo of up till now is really important. And it's just as important for any person outside of academia, outside of that world, to be able to access it if they want to. And that's why I think it's really important to to have these kinds of, um, you know, shows like Mine and and like the others on the network. But also, I want to be finding and working with people who are doing, you know, more writing-based, be they Substacks or YouTube or whatever it is. Like, I just think it's important to have this stuff out there and accessible.

• 35:29Liv Albert?

  And particularly with AI, you know, getting bigger and worse and and draining the planet of literally all of its water um and producing more CO2 than literally anything. Did you know, if any of you use ChatGPT, okay, here, this is for you. One prompt on ChatGPT uses, and I think that this number is close enough, but don't quote me on it completely. One prompt on ChatGPT, one question you ask this thing that is just literally an amalgamation of the entire internet. So like, why bother? One prompt uses 200 times more power and water than a Google search.

• 36:13Liv Albert?

  The amount of water and power that is going into generative AI may be the biggest and fastest threat to the planet and to climate change that we've ever seen. And no one talks about it because the money is all in the AI.

• 36:29Liv Albert?

  In any case, that is why I think it's so important to have like a place where people can find real humans interpreting real history because like I said, right at the top in that first question, history is subjective and for the last however many thousands of years, history has been interpreted, defined and like essentially created and understood through the lens of the white Western man. And that means that everything we know about history has been understood entirely through that viewpoint and anything outside is either ignored or just like straight up not seen because

• 37:11Liv Albert?

  like I said, history is subjective and that's why we need more people, more women and people of color and queer people and just generally people who are not white Western men to be examining this world and sharing it because otherwise we literally won't have anything except like what they want us to know. And that's wild and pretty propagandic. So, um, but all to say like, I mean, negatives are it's a fuck ton of work and I don't know, I find the negatives to be like, I accidentally threw myself into a lifestyle that I am not super comfortable with because I'm like a weirdo introvert. Oh, it'd be nice to like not live

• 37:55Liv Albert?

  on my phone. Um, but like, I, I mean, I honestly love it, but at the same time I've gotten, I had really good timing and I had, you know, a lot of things happen in line with my hard work that allowed me to make this my job and I don't know what that looks like now. So I feel a little bad like suggesting that as like a career path. I mean, I think it's really good to do also like, As a hobby and if it turns into your career like it did me like great, you know, but I think it's more about wanting to share this type of thing because you're passionate about it. Um, because otherwise it it loses a lot of its thrill and like the drive, you

• 38:37Liv Albert?

  know? Um, but we're working on building everything and I really just want to be a place for like resources and stuff too. So, uh, I don't have anything to share at this stage, but I hope I will soon. So if you want, like, keep in touch. Um, I don't remember what the email is, but if you go to memory or collectivemem.com, you should be able to find something and we're working on it or I'll work it on my newsletter, um, mythsbaby.com/newsletter. And when I have more information on like what it looks like to be part of it in whatever way, I will be sharing it. Um, that might come after I have to deliver the Odyssey. We'll see. That's crazy. Okay,

• 39:15Liv Albert?

  next up, we have one from, we have, I started reading it before I read it out loud. Okay, this one's from Kai. This is great. This is, this is a great palate cleanser. Okay, I know the question box says, don't make it weird, but can you just agree that Prometheus is the best name for my partner in my new air fryer? It brings heat and revolutionized our lives. That is the best name for your air fryer. As someone else whose air fryer has wrought heat and revolutionized my life, Prometheus, I think, is the only name, the only name you could give your air fryer. So I support you. I support you. All right.

• 40:00Liv Albert?

  Olivia says, why does Zeus rape so many women? Is it a reflection on ancient Greek culture? Is it a cautionary tale? I, I won't go, I won't go too far into this one because I feel like I've kind of said what I would say earlier in the episode because it really all comes back to like who is telling the stories and whose words, whose voices, whose lived experiences we actually get to hear from in the mythological sources. And those are not women. Um, and so, like, a lot of it is that While they did typically depending, I mean, it depends on the source, obviously, and time period and whatever, but like, I don't want to suggest that that the ancient Greeks,

• 40:44Liv Albert?

  men or otherwise, um, didn't conceptualize assault as like a traumatic, horrifying event. But what I think they were really looking at here is more about, um, control and paternity and generally understanding the role that they had ascribed to women, which is of one of subservience and subjugation. And so I don't think it's necessarily always about the actual assault itself. It's about control. It's about, um, it's about control, but it's

• 41:23Liv Albert?

  also about understanding and fearing paternity and, um, and just like that general, I mean,

• 41:33Liv Albert?

  at this point in my understanding, it's really hard for me to look beyond the really obvious and overt fear the ancient Greeks had with the power of the uterus. They were so afraid of the idea that the uterus created life and that they couldn't control what went into it entirely. Like, everything to me revolves around that.

• 42:03Liv Albert?

  Thank you. I hope that was enough. I'm trying to keep it from getting too dark. Whew. All right. This one actually, um, is a little bit more direct, but I think this could help a number of you. So, um, Andy asked about my RSS feed because of, um, something, I think it's when I switched back to Acast, some things got lost, um, in various podcast feeds, whatever. I will try to remember to link my RSS feed in the, um, podcast, uh, description, but I'm also going to try to remember to put it on an FAQ soon. In the meantime, if you are having trouble accessing my RSS feed for whatever reason, send me

• 42:46Liv Albert?

  an email, [email protected] and/or myths dot Michaela, it's like Michael but with an A, uh, at gmail.com and one of us will help you out with the RSS feed. It's really easy. It's just also not.

• 43:01Liv Albert?

  All right. I had another question slash comment from Amelie. And I am not gonna read the whole thing. It was about, it was about epic and it was very kind. I'm not, I just wanna say something about the epic episodes that I did because I don't know if they upset a bunch of people. I was only reacting to that one song. That was the whole point, right? So like, I did not have the context and I don't have the bandwidth to get the context because way too much, you know, non-reception, way too much like quote unquote, original mythology lives in my head. And I, the reception for me is really hard because there's just too much and I'm too deep into the ancient sources.

• 43:47Liv Albert?

  And I know that about myself, which is why I didn't wanna talk about it in any kind of detail. Because I know I wouldn't, I wouldn't give it the justice that you all want and that it deserves because it is an incredible accomplishment. So I listened to one song and asked one question and was upset about the exclusion of the women. Honestly, I mean, I think that there's probably a lot of other things I would be annoyed about the exclusion or whatever. And I'm sure there's a lot of things I would be super thrilled about, but it just wasn't for me. And I support you guys and it is great. I have nothing against it. It just wasn't for me. But like honestly, the, the real truth of it is I listened to that one song and I've really not thought about it much since.

• 44:28Liv Albert?

  And again, like that's a me decision. It's what I do in order to keep myself sane with the amount of Greek myth that I take in every day and that like, I don't think you understand how much just lives in my head. It's an ADHD thing too. It's fucking unhinged and I'm slowly losing my mind. But yeah, so it's just, that's where I feel about it. And I also just have some, I have some particular feels about certain Greek myths. The Odyssey is one of them. Hades and Persephone is the other where like, I know that my opinion is not necessarily one that everyone needs to hear about certain aspects and that's fine. You know, like the Odyssey for me is really important because of the women and also because of the.

• 45:12Liv Albert?

  It's also really important to me to that that reception of the Odyssey discloses and acknowledges the role that enslaved people play. And those are things where for me, it's like, that's just a deal breaker. But it's for me, it's a deal breaker for me, which is just why I like, I just didn't take it in and that's fine. Like, it's just not for me and that's okay. Um, and that's how I feel about like, kind of anything. It's, you know, it's also why I like, watch what I talk about with Hades and Persephone. Because if one more person tells me about a retelling that makes Demeter the bad guy for caring about her daughter, I'm going to scream into the void of nothingness. And I don't know what, so I just don't talk about it. And sometimes that's okay, because I'm just one person with just my own thoughts and feels. Um, but I'm really glad that that everyone loves it.

• 45:56Liv Albert?

  And the episodes were fun and Christie did a great job with the second episode, Christie and Michaela and and Christie did a great job with the second episode with all of those guests. And, you know, they did it more justice because they liked it and they wanted to consume it. Not even liking it, because I didn't dislike anything. I just like, I just didn't consume it at all, because I can't. Here we are.

• 46:36Speaker 03

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 47:06Speaker 01

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• 47:36Speaker 02

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• 48:24Liv Albert?

  All right, this one is from Skye, and apparently this episode is going to be long. Here we are. Skye said, "I recently learned about Semele being brought back to life as a goddess by Dionysus. What can you tell us about that?" Here's another great example of it happened.

• 48:42Liv Albert?

  Yeah, there's almost no sources about it. We just know that he did, and that it was like a big thing.

• 48:48Liv Albert?

  There might be like a sentence or two, maybe in Apollodorus. I've not looked recently, but I would like to do another episode about Dionysus soon. He is the best and so interesting. So maybe we'll return to that. But yeah, Dionysus did a lot of things. I mean, again, to return back, I am sure that Nonus Dionysus goes into great, great detail about it. It's just that, again, that's not like a great example of the actual mythical understanding of the ancient culture, because it's not like cultural. It's like 1,000 years later. It's like if I, I don't even know what was 1,000 years ago. It was like a really, I don't know. That it's like that. It's that far back that I'm like, I couldn't even tell you what happened back then, let alone reasonably write a story that actually touched on the

• 49:33Liv Albert?

  cultural touchstones of the time, you know? Um, but yeah, so about this Emily bit, honestly, it happens. He does. He brings her back to life in some way, but it might be like, again, like a far off source could simply be known as his Dionysia ca.

• 49:49Liv Albert?

  Okay. After all that, I couldn't face the fact that I didn't know anything about the sourcing on this. I just knew it happened. So here we are. I figured it out. Okay. So here we go. This is, this is an example of what I am talking about when I say like, it's just a thing that happened. We don't know anything about it really. So here's from Hesius Theogony. So one of the oldest sources we have, right? So it's, it's just one step newer than Homer. And he says, "And Semele, daughter of Cadmus, was joined with Zeus in love and bore him a splendid son, joyous Dionysus, a mortal woman and immortal son, and now they are both gods."

• 50:29Liv Albert?

  So like, that's it. And now they're both gods. How? Why Hesiod? How'd that happen? And then we have, okay, here's Pindar. So a couple centuries later. "Such is the tale told of the fair-throned maids of Cadmus, who suffered mightily, but heavy woe falls before greater good. With the immortal Semele of the flowing locks lives still, who died in the roar of thunder, and Pallas Athena loves her ever, and Zeus no less, and dearly to the ivy-bearing god Dionysus, her son." So again, that's one where it's just like, she's immortal. And then, um, here's, uh, Pseudo-Polidorus, which sometimes you think, so he's quite late,

• 51:11Liv Albert?

  right? He's like from like first century CE. So like a good 700 years after Hesiod. And usually he tends to tell us like stuff that's been established, like over those centuries. He's like really brief, but like at least we'll have like details that are often missing from the earlier ones because they hadn't been like figured out yet. But even he just writes, "Dionysus retrieved his mother Semele from Hades's realm, gave her the name Thani, and escorted her up to the sky." Like, that's it. So it's just, you know, like, I mean, and again, like, I'm scrolling. Oh, yeah. And then there's like, quite a few paragraphs in this, um, on this site that are known as Dinesiaca. So there can be more detailed. If you're curious about this, so I was just

• 51:56Liv Albert?

  reading from, um, the theoi.com page for Semeli. So if you just Google, like, honestly, theoi, Semeli, T H E O I, you're gonna find it. And then you can see all of the sources that reference that. And they're just, they're, they're disappointing. Like, that's another thing where you're like, you want the details, like, oh, my God, he brought her back from the dead and made her a goddess? How? Why? How did that happen? How? Where did he go? What did he do? What did it look like? And it's like, no, she just was also a god. Here you go. Here's a quick one from Eric, who says, are there any myths pertaining to TK? Or is she another one of the gods who doesn't show up in stories because she's mostly just a personification of a concept? You got it. You answered it for yourself. See, I'm glad

• 52:39Liv Albert?

  this means, this means that, that you're all listening to me be annoyingly disappointing about this stuff. Yeah, TK is definitely one where she's the goddess of fortune, um, luck. And she basically doesn't have any stories, if I recall. Um, Fortuna in Rome is like the same general idea where we get fortune, clearly. Uh, and I think she has some more, but she's also like, quite different from TK. All right. A question from Andy. They say, how to deal with the barbaric and terrible things the myths tell us the gods have done, but also enjoy media retellings, representations of them. How do we enjoy the mythology through a leftist slash modern lens? Great question.

• 53:21Liv Albert?

  I mean, for me, it's inherent. Like, I fucking love it. But that's because, like, I have, for me, what, what I love most about the mythology and what interests me most, most is how it interacts with the real people and what it says about the real people. And so like, for me, you know, like, everything I said at the top, you know, there's so many issues with what we know and how and why and like, what kind of damage it did slash does cause to people broadly, women specifically and others. And

• 53:59Liv Albert?

  But like, I mean, it's one of those things where, you know, we're here, we've, we've got this far. And for me, the thrill and the thing I love so much is picking that stuff apart and breaking it down and understanding like where those horrors come from and what they're saying and like, like I was saying earlier, like, it doesn't say so much about the culture itself to me, or like the individual people. Instead, it's about the overarching like

• 54:36Liv Albert?

  weight of patriarchy, I guess, and the, the like, I mean, it's, to me, it's just interesting, I guess, because it has to be interesting. Otherwise, I'll scream and cry all the time, you know, like, if we think about, you know, the ways in which non-men, non-cis-men, Western, have been harmed by like the entirety of the evolution of Western civilization, like,

• 55:12Liv Albert?

  like, that did a lot of damage. It did a lot of damage, but I think what's empowering is to understand that damage and see it for what it is and start deconstructing it, which is why I like deconstructing the stories and the details and what else we might understand about them or like what, what we might take from these stories, these characters, this world beyond that damage, you know, and the terrible, the terrible actions. And like, for me, that's, that's how to appreciate the mythology itself. Like, I'm a little bit less good at answering the retellings and representations question because I'm so deep into the mythology,

• 55:58Liv Albert?

  which is that like, I don't, I don't take enough of them in because it's too much, like, I'm too in deep with the ancient sources. And so I find myself either, you know, feeling like I have to pick apart a retelling or a representation and then simultaneously knowing that I don't want to do that. Like, I don't want to ever pick apart someone's art. Like, it's literally why I tried really hard to not say much at all in the epic episode, you know, like, I don't want. To pick apart someone's art and but at the same time, I know that my brain will, which is why I just don't take them in because I think that that is kinder to me. The author, like I would never say anything into a microphone anyway, like I, I really,

• 56:43Liv Albert?

  I'm really conscious of not, not doing that. Um, cause it's another individual's art and everything they put into it. And you know, it doesn't matter what I think or don't think about it, except for Christopher Nolan's Odyssey. I'm gonna tear that shit to shreds because that is a product of the capitalist corporate machine, not an individual person. So that's fine. Um, but all to say like, that's, that's why I, I think I do have a bit of an issue with that because I either pick it apart or I want it to be more in depth or like, you know, like I've, I've read some fantasy novels and stuff. And if they have too many Greek myth references, it drives me nuts because the thing that I find in every one of them that I have read is that they have all these like Greek myth references. They've like picked

• 57:28Liv Albert?

  all these names out or these words, whatever. But they didn't actually like think about it. Like it doesn't actually connect to like the, the origins of those words. And like, that's fantasy. So like, I get it. That's fine. But like, it drives me crazy because I'm like, oh, but I want this to be deeper. And so I know because my brain is going to do those things, like I just tend not to, even with like chaos. I've watched a couple episodes and they're really good, really good. And they're doing really interesting things with the myths, really interesting. And so for me, it's like, it's a very different problem, which is that like, I know that they're doing really interesting things with

• 58:09Liv Albert?

  the myths and I want to, I want to catch every little thing because there's so much. And then, so I haven't watched more because it feels like good work, where it's like my brain will do the work, like my brain will find those things. So I have to give myself the space and like, after spending eight to 10 hours researching mythology, working on the admin of this show, which is arguably the worst part. Oh my God, ADHD and executive dysfunction. Um, like I can't, I can't then do that. Like my brain needs to shut down completely. So it's just such a weird thing. Anyway, that was like a full, um, side quest there in the explanation, but like, I do think. That it is very possible, and I've certainly done it to like

• 58:54Liv Albert?

  appreciate, appreciate the myths for what they are and what, how we today can interpret them or not, you know, I think that it's really possible. I think that for me, it's just about understanding what's going on and, and just like, I mean, coming at it with like, hopefully an open mind and some, I mean, because I know that individual people have created this type of stuff, like it makes it easy for me. Like it's, that's a now thing, you know, like it's different for the ancient stuff. Um, but yeah, like it's just, I don't know, that's why like, I don't, I can't really fuck with retellings that, that, um, fund, to me, in my opinion, like fundamentally, um,

• 59:40Liv Albert?

  you know, change, but I mean, something much harsher than change, like, bastardize is the only word I can think of, but it's not a great word. Um, but yeah, like I don't, I don't like retellings and, and reception that like fundamentally changes, something like that. Like I think fundamentally changing it in a way that's like insightful and interesting is one thing. And then like, like for me, I'll say it again, like, if I am told that there is a retelling of Hades and Persephone that makes Demeter the bad guy for loving her daughter, I'm out, I'm out. It happened to me today. Let's be honest. I'm out though. Like, and that's fine. It's up to the person. Like, I don't fault anyone for making, for

• 1:00:22Liv Albert?

  writing those stories and wanting to tell those stories, but they are not for me. And so I think it's also just about knowing what type of reception of retellings that you can or can't handle based on how you feel about what's going on in those myths.

• 1:00:37Liv Albert?

  Gosh, I just.

• 1:00:40Liv Albert?

  This I will always, I just, I love to ramble. I love to ramble. But you know, I think this is it for today. Um, this is the Tuesday episode, but on Friday, we're getting even closer to the anniversary episode. So I will be doing another Q and A. Um, if you get it in in time, I don't want to give you deadlines. I don't know when I'm going to be able to record, but submit your questions if you have them, questions, comments, concerns, literally anything. I love reading them. I do try to answer as many as I can on the episodes and I want to be doing more. So the more you give me now, even if I don't get to them next or on Friday, like I'm going to get to them soon. Um, so tell me things, share your thoughts and

• 1:01:24Liv Albert?

  feelings, give me suggestions about maybe what you want me to talk about or stories. Like, is there something you'd like me to revisit too? Like, I would love to know that. I would love to have any of your thoughts. Like, I've been doing this for eight years and I'm not stopping, but I do need your help on like, what do you want to hear? Um, and I'm sorry if my answer is often like, there's no stories. Ha, JK, there's just nothing. Um, but like, there is a lot of other things and I would just love to know what you guys want to hear. Um, I did see earlier, I wasn't, didn't have a chance to actually fully read and answer the question on the episode, but somebody was talking about like Sophocles' Ajax. And that one's definitely on my list. I just wrote down today that like, I think I really need to do Euripides' Hecuba, um, because it seems to have done some interesting things with the

• 1:02:08Liv Albert?

  end of the war and like Michaela loves Aeschylus' Persians. We got to get to that too. So if there's stuff that you want to hear about stories, plays, history, whatever, let us know. Um, we're also bringing Michaela into more and more. She's going to be doing some history based stuff. So if there's stuff you want to hear, if there's topics you want to hear, me, Michaela, both of us talk about, like, let us know. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's written, produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pangowish is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer, who again, I want to be bringing in more and more. So specifically for Q and As, I would love to do one with Michaela. If you have any questions for her specifically or history more broadly, let's see what she can do because she's better than me at the history side.

• 1:02:54Liv Albert?

  Select music by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, which?

• 1:03:00Liv Albert?

  Will be more of a thing soon. I have an upcoming retelling of The Odyssey. I don't think it's available for pre-sale yet, but when it is, I'll let you know. And in the meantime, it's so exciting and it's taking up every waking moment of my life. Submit more questions, which you to the Q and A. Mythsbaby.com/Questions. Sign up for the newsletter, which eventually will exist again at mythsbaby.com/newsletter. And if you would like to access the show ad-free, along with a bunch of bonus stuff, including some pretty fun new merch, little goodies, check out the options at patreon.com/MythsBaby. We're trying to bring you more and more, and I am trying to solidify the show in,

• 1:03:42Liv Albert?

  I don't even know what I mean, but you know, like capitalism's falling. And right now, all the money we have is coming from ads, so I'm trying to make sure I don't have to stop doing this. Patreon.com/MythsBaby. I am Liv, and I love this shit.

• 1:04:14Speaker 03

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone, and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed, and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us.

• 1:04:38Speaker 04

  Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

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• 1:05:15Speaker 02

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