#852 Are We At Economic War? w/ Dylan LeClair

Dylan LeClair is the Senior Market Analyst at UTXO Management, a digital asset fund investing in the analog to digital transformation of money and the emergent financial system. In this conversation, we dive into various markets such as commodities and bonds and how they relate to the uncertainty in the macro environment. We also look at Bitcoin On-Chain analytics and discuss if a recession is near. Dylan joins us every Tuesday on "The Best Business Show." To see the video with the corresponding charts that Dylan references throughout the interview, go to "The Best Business Show: LIVE" YouTube Channel ======================= Bitcoin 2022 is the LARGEST Bitcoin event in the world that takes place April 6th - 9th in Miami Beach, Florida. All four days will be jammed-packed with exclusive content, exciting announcements and an incredible lineup of bitcoin speakers, artists and leaders. Day 1 is INDUSTRY DAY for enterprising bitcoiners who are looking to build a business or career within the ecosystem. Days 2 and 3 are general conference days featuring speakers like El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, CEOs like Michael Saylor, Elizabeth Stark, Jack Mallers, Adam Back and hundreds more. The conference caps off on the fourth day with the world's first and largest Bitcoin Music Festival - Sound Money Fest headlined by rapper and fellow bitcoiner Logic, featuring artists K. Flay, MØ, Royal & the Serpent, Apashe, Asadi and more. Stay tuned for the upcoming lineup announcement! Last year’s conference SOLD OUT and this year’s is on pace to be 3x larger so make sure you grab your tickets before it's too late. Visit b.tc/conference to learn more. Ticket prices increase on JAN 14th, use promo code POMP for 10% off and I will see you in Miami!ire ecosystem bringing utility to #NFTs ======================= Brave Wallet is the first secure crypto wallet built natively in a web3 crypto browser. No extension required. Store, manage, and grow your portfolio, get NFT & multi-chain support, and more. Download the Brave privacy browser at brave.com/Pomp, and click the wallet icon to get started. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Dylan Leclerc is the Senior Market Analyst at UTXO Management. He also writes a newsletter with Bitcoin Magazine. In this conversation, we talk about Bitcoin, on-chain metrics, we talk about Bitcoin's price, the market structure, and what to expect in the coming weeks. I really enjoyed this conversation with Dylan, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by FTX US. FTX.us is the safe, regulated way to buy and sell Bitcoin and other digital assets. You can trade crypto with up to 85% lower fees than

• 0:44Anthony Pompliano?

  top competitors. There are no fixed minimum fees, no ACH transaction fees, and no withdrawal fees either. FTX.us is also the only leading exchange that supports both Ethereum and Solana NFTs. Download the FTX app today and use referral code POMP to earn these free crypto on every trade over $10. The more you trade, the more you earn. Go download the FTX app today and use referral code POMP. Today's episode is sponsored by the Bitcoin 2022 Conference. Bitcoin 2022 is the largest Bitcoin event in the world that takes place April 6th through the 9th in Miami Beach, Florida. All four days will be jam-packed with exclusive content, exciting announcements,

• 1:26Anthony Pompliano?

  and an incredible lineup of Bitcoin speakers, artists, and leaders. Day one is Industry Day for enterprising Bitcoiners who are looking to build a business or career within the ecosystem. Days two and three are general conference days featuring speakers like El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, CEOs like Michael Saylor, Elizabeth Stark, Jack Mahlers, Adam Back, and hundreds more. The conference caps off on the fourth day with the world's first and largest Bitcoin music festival, Sound Money Fest, headlined by rapper and fellow Bitcoiner Logic, featuring artists K-Fle, Mo, Royal, and The Serpent, Apache, Asadi, and more. Stay tuned for the upcoming lineup announcement. Last year's conference sold out, and this year's is on pace to be three times larger, so make sure you grab your tickets before it's too late. Visit B-

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

  .tc/conference to learn more. Again, that's b.tc/conference to learn more. Ticket prices increase on January 14th. Use promo code POMP for 10% off and I will see you in Miami. Today's episode is brought to you by Brave. Brave Wallet is the first secure crypto wallet built natively in a Web3 crypto browser. What's Web3? Web3 is freedom from big tech and Wall Street. More control and better privacy. But there's a weak point in Web3, your crypto wallet. Most wallets are browser extensions, a Web2 technology. That means the same old risks, app spoofing, phishing scams, and theft. Brave Wallet is different. Brave Wallet is the first secure wallet built natively in a Web3 crypto browser. No extension required. With Brave Wallet, you can buy, store, send,

• 2:55Anthony Pompliano?

  and swap assets, manage NFTs, even connect other wallets and dApps, all from the security of the best privacy browser on the market. Whether you're new to crypto or a seasoned pro, it's time to ditch those risky extensions. It's time to switch to Brave Wallet. Download Brave at brave.com/pomp and click the wallet icon to get started. Again, go download Brave at brave.com/pomp and click the wallet icon to get started. All right, let's get into this episode. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Dylan, what's going on, buddy? Yes, how are you? I'm doing great. How are you? Doing great. What a crazy time. Very, very, very, very crazy. All right. You've got a couple of charts here for us. Let's start first with the commodities index. We were just talking about wheat, oil, nickels in there, a whole bunch of different stuff that just seems to be going up into the moon. What is your read on this? Plus thirty percent is absurd.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, year to date. And so, you know, for the 2010s, we had a pretty prolonged period of disinflationary commodity trends, kind of riding on the wave of previous capex cycles. And so, you know, following the COVID stimulus and that kind of demand shock that we gave to markets, we started to see rising inflation, right? Inflation is at forty year highs in November, when Powell said, all right, we got to start to get this in check. And recently, and this is something that, you know, no one really could have foreseen, I guess maybe some geopolitical experts, but this hot war that's occurring, really, the economic war that's occurring with all the nation states in Russia is just throwing napalm on this inflation crisis.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  I got a note here, eleven percent of the global oil supply, seventeen percent of global nat gas, eleven percent of global wheat, and ten percent of industrial minerals are produced in Russia. So if essentially everyone's black mark, just saying, you know, we don't want your commodities, and just kind of holding them hostage. And I think evidently they'll work with China, but there's no way to just snap your fingers and make up that demand in global markets. And so, what's the result? Simple supply and demand, prices are soaring. And then there's pretty wide implications for that.

• 5:33Anthony Pompliano?

  When you look at the bond market, obviously, that has a huge impact as well as this all plays out. We've seen incredible volatility to the upside to start the year. Similar read on this as well?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, if you think about a fixed income product, right? You're sitting and you're getting a fixed payment in fiat currency, okay? And so, if your goal as a capital allocator is to maintain or grow your purchasing power, you know, bonds that pay a coupon that's above inflation is a good deal. You get a payment, and not only you grow your purchasing power in nominal terms, but in real terms. But if we say have inflation at eight percent, and I think these next readings with these commodity markets going parabolic, these next readings are going to accelerate in terms of CPI. And so, you're sitting on a fixed income product, what do you do? Well, you dump it, you sell it. So we're seeing. Seeing massive volatility in the most liquid markets in the world like people think of equities

• 6:26Speaker 02

  as kind of the driver but really behind the scenes these fixed income markets these credit markets really kind of set set everything else and so we're seeing just massive volatility in in credit markets or almost surpassing the kind of covid crisis and so there's trouble and the plumbing is is you know saying there's there's there's something wrong in these in these global markets and I expect volatility to actually increase.

• 6:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it and then when we start to look at the junk and corporate debt that seems to be in a free fall pretty aggressively you know explain why why that's happening.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so covered this on the past couple of your shows previous months and a lot of people reach out and be like you know aren't you kind of interested in Bitcoin why the hell are you covering junk debt like who cares and the reality is you know behind the scenes there's there's pretty big implications if these things are selling off so the principal value of bonds is inverse to the yield so when these things are selling off right because inflation is running hot at you own fixed income you sell it because it's not a good deal anymore it's not a good bang for your buck well what happens is the yields rise and so what what this means and we cover this a little bit later is not only is kind of liquidity draining out of these fixed income markets but also the financing costs for these corporates is rising in tandem so so not only are these fixed income investors delevering they're they're selling they're getting these off their

• 7:48Speaker 02

  books but also you see financing costs really rising across the board for corporates and so we haven't even really seen that come into play yet but this isn't just a kind of a corporate debt or investment you know junk or investment grade debt corporate thing this is just basically all fixed income products because again inflation is so rampant and so eventually and I think what hasn't been priced into markets yet unfortunately is that these inflation risks and these kind of the credit sell off eventually leads to liquidity liquidity and solvency risk in fixed income markets as no one can get can get cheap financing in a historically over indebted economy and so you know there there's these markets are still in trouble.

• 8:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it and so when you start to look at. Things like the corporate credit spreads. It seems that the drop in the S and P 500 being inversely correlated to these corporate spreads. You've also overlaid here the VIX on top of it. How do you kind of navigate the complexity that's involved with the relationship between these types of measurements or assets?

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so why look at these at all? What can they tell you? And so I overlaid corporate credit spreads, which are essentially it's the yield on top of the treasury yield. So the treasury market is that kind of risk free, global fixed income market. It's really still thought of as a global safe haven, despite a lot of people saying I would never own bonds. It still is that risk free rate in the global economic system. So we see this corporate credit spread, meaning when this is going up, the corporate credit spread, it means that financing costs for corporates, and this is triple B corporates, is rising farther than the actual treasury yield. And so that means that it's harder to get financing for these companies.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  And so overlaying that with the VIX, you can see there's a pretty tight relationship. Obviously, there's a lot of volatility in the VIX, which is a volatility index itself. But there's a pretty correlated relationship between these two things. And I highlighted whenever both of those metrics or indicators are rising, I highlighted what happens to the S and P 500, what happens to equities. So equity market volatility explodes, and it's more so kind of a function of the lack of liquidity in credit markets, which is reflected in the credit spreads. And what happens? The equity indices dump. And so there's a lot of things happening behind the scenes here. But recently, I think the Nasdaq is 20% off the highs.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  I'm not sure what the Dow or S and P is, but really the credit markets were starting to say there's a problem back in November. And now with all of this inflation happening and the kind of madness in the commodity markets, the equity markets are teetering. I think that's what's going on.

• 10:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you start to look at things like the 10-year yield curve, how much are these still like a clean signal for inflation expectations and other metrics versus are these becoming distorted by the complexity of the market?

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so here we have the 10-year and the two-year yield curve. So subtract the two-year yield from the 10-year yield and you get what's most people refer to or, you know, credit traders refer to as the yield curve. And basically, this, this indicator, this metric has predated when it inverts, when it goes below zero. It's called a yield curve inversion. When it's gone below zero, it's predated every single recession since the 1960s. And even before that, it just missed one in the 60s. It was a false signal. Because why? If you think about how the credit system works, most creditors, lenders in the financial system, they borrow short. So like banks, they'll borrow short and lend long. They'll take on short-dated liabilities and

• 11:32Speaker 02

  acquire long-dated assets. You know, like they'll borrow from the Fed for, you know, a year or whatever it is and lend for 10, or two and lend for 10. So when this yield curve inverts, when you can actually get a higher yield by holding a two-year treasury note than a 10-year treasury note, there's problems. Because traditionally, that yield curve kind of, you'll get a higher yield the farther you go out in duration. So when this inverts, there's pretty big liquidity problems in the market. And so recently, it hasn't inverted, but we're seeing a pretty massive flattening of this curve. And it looks like, if we kind of just focus on the trend, it looks like an inversion is coming. And so, and this is the crazy thing is, whenever these yield curve inversions start to happen, traditionally,

• 12:16Speaker 02

  we've seen the Fed start to loosen financial conditions. But now, we're sitting here with raging inflation and a yield curve, a yield curve inversion potentially coming, and the Fed funds rate is still at zero. So truly historic and honestly, the Fed is completely trapped in what they can do. And I, you know, I would not Want to be Jerome Powell in this situation.

• 12:38Anthony Pompliano?

  That's what we were talking about earlier is I don't think that there's a single off ramp or out that is positive. It's a lose lose situation. You either get recession or you get inflation. And in some crazy way, you may successfully navigate both of those in quick succession. And end up causing quite a bit of of harm. But again, you know, if you go back to like, what is the right answer? I don't know if there is a right answer. And so I know you and I have a agreement on the idea of Bitcoin being a pretty good solution. You've got the Bitcoin price chart here, going back to kind of beginning of 2020. When it was down in the, you know, five, six, seven, $8,000 range. What's your read on where Bitcoin is now and how it's reacting to all of this?

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, so just on everything I'm seeing in credit markets, kind of commodities, equities, big picture, global macro. It looks increasingly likely, in my opinion, and I could be wrong here, that we're kind of headed for some sort of deleveraging or liquidity event. Okay, so what does that mean? And as a Bitcoin bull, how am I positioned? Well, I kind of, you know, funny, I put an arrow at the bottom, kind of at that COVID crisis chart. And I said, you know, Bitcoin is dead, it has failed as a store of value. And what I mean is I don't, I'm not calling for Bitcoin to go to 20,000 or 15,000 or to get cut in half overnight like it did in March of 2020. I don't know. And so, you know, I am holding some cash and hoping to buy blood as a long term Bitcoin investor.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  But I think more so is, I believe, when we're talking about the Fed being trapped, is ultimately what we're referring to is there, there's, if there is a deleveraging event, the Fed is going to be stuck with basically yield curve control as an option. Meaning they're going to monetize any amount of debt they need to, to keep this game going, to keep this credit market functioning properly. And they'll probably come out and use all sorts of jargon to to explain why they need to do it. But ultimately, this is kind of the end game of this of this system. You referred to Volcker, right before I came on, I was watching. Well, in in the 1980s, I think federal debt to GDP was about 25%. Right now, it's 120%.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  So in terms of, in terms of what they can do and if how high rates can go if, if this deleveraging event occurs, uh, well, because how do you sell anything in a, in a liquidity crunch? Uh, and so what does that mean? It means higher financing costs. It means a huge recession. And honestly, this sounds really dark, but just on, on the debt loads, it means a depression. Um, and so, uh, the Fed isn't, I mean, not that they're not going to let it happen, but there's going to be some response. And ultimately I believe the response is mass debt monetization and the motherload of stimulus, which makes 2020 look like a joke. So takeaways, uh, the response to all of this madness, uh, a non-sovereign global store

• 15:28Speaker 02

  of value that has absolute scarcity in a production cost, uh, is a pretty good bet. Uh, over the short term, expect volatility, uh, both to the upside and to the downside. And for that reason, I would say if you have any mark to market leverage, meaning, you know, exchange rate risk, if you have Bitcoin in cold storage, you're fine. You're in, you're insulated, you're, you're going to be okay. Go, go, you know, go take a nap for a year and come back and tell me what Bitcoin's price is at. Um, but over the short term, yeah, I think there potentially is a, is a, you know, chance for some, some, uh, some craziness and some liquidity crunch type condition. So for dip buyers, uh, you might get a, a pretty nice opportunity, but, uh, nothing is a sure bet. That's just kind of what I'm seeing.

• 16:11Anthony Pompliano?

  When you start to think about, um, Bitcoin's price, I think in the short term, we saw Bitcoin rise, you know, at first maybe it was up, or I think it went down actually the night of the invasion, it went down, you know, a couple of percent. Then it was up as high as 25% from the start of the invasion. Now we're probably sitting somewhere in the, you know, 10, 12, 15% range. Is that what you would expect in this situation? Do you think that it was a less severe move than you would have expected? Um, is tax selling coming into April 15th still, you know, kind of part of this? Like just talk to me about the, the price and what your expectations have been and kind of how you see.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  This playing out moving forward. Yeah, so 2022 has been kind of a landmark year in the sense that we had the Canadian trucker convoy with the government explicitly just freezing bank accounts, seizing, seizing money, seizing assets, and then followed up by kind of an order of magnitude or two larger than this. And yes, you know, as a sovereign nation that kind of committed some, some sort of war crime. Yeah, I, I understand that, but Russia had its foreign exchange reserves frozen. So that was kind of for, for a lot of macroeconomists and kind of, you know, followers of this incumbent petrodollar monetary system. They were saying, whoa, this is a huge line in the sand. Sovereign foreign exchange reserves, if they can just be frozen, are they really money?

• 17:33Speaker 02

  And I think that kind of has made the case for not only Bitcoin, but I mean, I think gold is close to breaking all time highs today. For, you know, bearer assets in general, something that's not someone else's liability. And so at the same time, you have people that are kind of trading Bitcoin on day to day timeframes or trading correlations. They're trading it based on dollar strength, which increases during kind of financial condition tightness. But on the other hand, you have people that are saying, wait, I think the end game to this is going to be more money printing. And honestly, I, I don't think that there's many things that you can truly own in this environment. Whether you're a political dissident or, you know, whatever the case may be, maybe you just want freedom money. The reality is there's not many things that you can completely control.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  And really there's nothing else that you can completely control that you can guarantee. No one can, can arbitrarily create more of or dilute kind of the total supply. And so in that case, the, the bull case for Bitcoin has honestly never been stronger. There's just kind of some short to medium term headwinds, I believe, that could, that could lead to somewhat of a, of a good buying opportunity. If we get that and at what timeframe, I'm not entirely sure, but this is just kind of what, what I'm seeing. So long-term bullish, I still have more Bitcoin than I ever have. And I'm feeling really good about it.

• 18:48Speaker 03

  Joe, John, what questions you guys got? Dylan, what's going on with gold, man? It's it's at an all time high or close to it at least. What are your thoughts on on gold bugs, celebrating what they should be looking forward to and so on?

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, congrats, you know, the gold and Bitcoin communities bicker back and forth. But I think, you know, really, they're on the same kind of mission of sound money and something that governments can manipulate. I guess maybe you could argue that gold, the paper gold price could be manipulated. But something that's outside the hands of, you know, 12, 12 men in a boardroom deciding, you know, whether to arbitrarily increase the price of money or decrease it. And so, you know, congrats. I think, you know, we, the gold and Bitcoin community has more aligned than many of the gold investors think, and maybe even Bitcoin as well. But I have my bets placed on on where the future is going. This is the only gold I own, but I'm happy with it.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  John?

• 19:44Speaker 04

  Dylan, when you look at what's happening in Russia and stuff, is everyone, they can't really seem like they can go to stocks. They don't know if a recession is coming or not. Is this a big event for Bitcoin in the sense of like, this is the perfect storm? People should be running to this asset and not kind of putting their money elsewhere when they need liquidity?

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I'm a, I'm a in favor of right now, just continuing to auto stack Bitcoin, but also stacking a little, you know, stash of cash. I don't think that's a bad idea. Cash over the long term, I believe, is trash. You know, Ray Dalio has been saying that. But when you have this kind of debt system or this monetary system as engorged in debt as it is, you're going to see these rapid unwinds, these rapid delevered things that happen, right? March of 2020, everyone thinks it was just the COVID lockdowns. The reality was that the system was was so over levered that some sort of volatility explosion liquidity event likely would have came. It will probably, it definitely wouldn't have been as bad, but it would have come. It's the same thing that happened in 08. It wasn't a function of of this thing or that thing.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  It was just kind of a mathematical event that happened because there was credit impairment and everything, counterparty risk and balance sheets unwound. So I think that's what. We're experiencing, obviously, the commodity and, you know, event and the Russia-Ukraine war has a pretty major role in this, in the inflationary spike. But yeah, I mean, in terms of a kind of a boon for Bitcoin over the long term, yeah, the Rubicon has been crossed, in my opinion, in terms of the legititization of this asset. And so, short term, headwinds, long term, never been more bullish, and I think a lot of people are waking up to it.

• 21:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha. Dylan, when you start to think about Bitcoin's price, what do you think,

• 21:31Anthony Pompliano?

  what do you think drives kind of change here? Is it just literally more people being educated, more time in the market, and it does its thing? Do you think that there's some sort of inflection point that occurs, whether it is, you know, a nation-state buying it or whatever? Like, how do you kind of look at into the future, various events around Bitcoin?

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, I've had a lot of people in my replies and DMs being like, hey, you know, you're not posting as much on-chain stuff. And the reality is the on-chain supply dynamics look fantastic. I think more so just in terms of if you're looking at the market right now and what's driving everything, it's this macro backdrop that we're describing. But off the top of my head, and don't quote me on this, but I believe in terms of Bitcoin held over the last three months, 86% of supply hasn't moved. I think that's, that's an all-time high or close to an all-time high. Over the last six months, I believe it's around 75%, almost an all-time high. And for a year, 61% hasn't moved. I think that's also, if not an all-time high, very close to it. So you have a really kind of squeezy supply side in terms of the free float

• 22:34Speaker 02

  isn't all that much. And I, you know, my personal kind of thesis here is that, you know, if we see, and, you know, I believe when we see some sort of liquidity event deleveraging, Bitcoin's exchange rate will take a hit. Maybe there's some derivative market liquidations. Price goes down, the skeptics come out and say, you know, it's dead, it's not a store of value, it didn't, it couldn't stand a recession, it couldn't stand a liquidity crunch. Whether or not the Fed responds time is fast. Or not, I think Bitcoin forms a bottom and ultimately I believe the monetary easing will come back. But regardless, that stackers of last resort and just how kind of tight that free float supply is of an absolutely scarce asset.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  I think on the other side of this Bitcoin rips unlike any other asset, similar to kind of maybe not a direct repeat of 2020, but kind of a pretty similar, you know, central bank or fiat system unwind with really solid supply dynamics in Bitcoin, leading to kind of a parabolic run. That's kind of my base case. And so, you know, I'm happy to stack at a discount. And I think, you know, that's on the other side of this is when Bitcoin truly kind of, everyone comes to realize it's the thing that you need to own during kind of this mass debasement of fiat currency.

• 23:46Anthony Pompliano?

  It's, uh, it's pretty crazy to watch this. Let's go to the extreme. Is the dollar failing as the global reserve currency? Is there another currency that replaces it other than a non-sovereign, you know, currency? Like, how do you think about just more of the like geopolitical and like nation state currencies, reserve status, et cetera, as this all unfolds?

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, I mean, if you, you know, some people have been saying, and I think Dalio's thesis is, you know, the CCP and the renminbi and all of that. And I personally, I disagree with that because in order for a world reserve currency, you have to keep your capital account open. You have to allow for free, uh, free trade and, you know, capital inflows and outflows outside of your borders. And so I don't see that occurring. And in terms of, you know, the euros cooked, uh, there's really no other kind of legitimate option, uh, other than the dollar. Like we rag on the dollar a lot, but the reality is the dollar is the best of the worst. In terms of, in terms of stability and kind of, uh, holding its, holding its value up.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  There's so much dollar-denominated debt out there that during kind of these financial crises, the reason that everything sells off and the dollar actually spikes, you can think of it as a dollar kind of bidding is because of that dollar-denominated debt. And when debt defaults occur, that dollars are being like actively destroyed. And so that's why kind of the dollar still is king, even though, even though we think the end game, and I truly believe that the end game is that, you know, it's melting in value. We have kind of super spikes in this, in this dollar value, but in terms of legitimate replacements, nothing else even really comes close, which is why a lot of people are talking about kind of a commodity backed currency in the east, in terms of like Russia and China and a basket of commodities. Some are saying gold, some are saying, you know, trade weighted basket.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  I personally believe the end game is Bitcoin. And I, you know, I don't expect Putin to come out and say, you know, I'm a Bitcoin bull tomorrow, or even say it at all. But I think the game theory points to Bitcoin in this kind of trustless environment, being embraced eventually by individuals, institutions and sovereigns everywhere. But we're still pretty early in that game, I imagine.

• 26:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's, it's pretty incredible. All right. We got to let you go. But before we do that, how are we looking on, on followers? It's like your Super Bowl, man. You've been all over this. I feel like, what, oh, 133.3. That's a lot of threes in there. Maybe we next, the next three stop is 300,000. Because everyone who's watching this right now is going to go follow you on Twitter, obviously. That's

• 26:25Speaker 02

  I think I've been shadow banned, to be honest. I, some people are replying to me and they, and then people replied to them and they couldn't see the tweet above it. So I don't know. Maybe, maybe that's, that's hurting me, maybe not, but

• 26:38Speaker 04

  Well, that's the Twitter platform. You can send them to your newsletter, The Deep Dive.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're thinking right.

• 26:45Anthony Pompliano?

  What a plug, John.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Let's go. Yeah. Subscribe to The Deep Dive. We cover all this stuff in depth every day. And we're putting out monthly reports that are 30, 30 pages long with a bunch of charts. And so if you find that valuable and you like some of this stuff that we cover, make sure to check it out.

• 27:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome, man. Thank you so much for coming on. You always got tons of great information. And the world is changing quickly. So as, as I always say, keep your eyes peeled, your head on a swivel. You never know what's going to happen, right?

• 27:16Speaker 02

  Indeed. See you guys later.

• 27:18Anthony Pompliano?

  See you later.