What If Your Greatest Adversity Has a Purpose?

BUY THE BOOK! Ahead of All Parting by Barry Michels ⁠https://amzn.to/3TTMT8B⁠ https://amzn.to/3TTMT8B Psychotherapist and bestselling co-author of The Tools, Barry Michels, joins the podcast to discuss his extraordinary new memoir, Ahead of All Parting. This is a conversation for anyone searching for meaning in life’s most difficult moments and seeking to discover how transformation is possible in the face of extreme adversity. Barry has been diagnosed with a terminal brain disease, Lewy body dementia. Despite the inevitable pain and grief that come with a devastating health diagnosis, he now sees it as the path he was meant to walk—a path that has opened him up in ways he never thought possible, revealing the power of vulnerability, love, prayer and the written word. Drew Barrymore, one of Barry’s longtime clients, also joins the conversation to share the life-changing impact he’s had on her life. 00:00:00 - Intro 00:02:14 - Welcome Barry Michels, author of Ahead of All Parting 00:06:35 - Barry speaks on Lewy Body dementia 00:09:20 - Grief after hearing a diagnosis 00:12:18 - When did Barry notice something was off 00:14:14 - Getting a diagnosis 00:16:15 - Adversity has a purpose 00:19:45 - Not hiding after a diagnosis 00:20:25 - Welcome Drew Barrymore 00:23:00 - Drew Barrymore on going through challenges 00:25:50 - Drew Barrymore on watching Barry navigate his illness 00:27:20 - How the diagnosis changed Barry as a therapist 00:28:30 - Appreciating life 00:29:50 - Feeling guilt with a diagnosis 00:38:22: Welcome Alex, who was diagnosed with kidney failure 00:43:22 - Religion during a diagnosis 00:49:20 - Barry Michels on writing 00:54:00 - Barry Michels on seeing his mortality Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ ⁠ https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/%20⁠https://www.facebook.com/oprahpodcast/⁠ https://www.facebook.com/oprahpodcast/⁠https://www.instagram.com/oprah/?hl=en⁠ https://www.instagram.com/oprah/?hl=en⁠https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/⁠ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI⁠ https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  This book is so truthful and resonates so powerfully. This is going to be one of those books you keep by your bedside forever.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  He has helped me understand our greatest devastations can become our greatest strengths.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  Right now, I'm kind of in the it's not fair phase. Why me?

• 0:18Speaker 03

  Everything that happens to you, especially the worst things that happen to you, are there for a reason. And then you can use those things to help you transform yourself.

• 0:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi there, and a warm welcome to you all. Thanks for being here with me on the Oprah Podcast. While I was getting ready for this episode, I read this statistic that dementia is right up there with cancer as the most feared medical condition. And I have to say, that doesn't surprise me. And I'm sure it doesn't surprise many of you who are listening or watching, because there's no cure. And many of us see the devastation that patients endure, the loss of independence, of course, the loss of memories and the loss of, this is the thing I think most people fear, is the loss of your very self.

• 1:18Oprah Winfrey?

  And when my next guest was diagnosed with Lewy body dementia, he was told that it will ravage his brain, he will lose his mobility, he may display bizarre behavior, he may even endure terrifying hallucinations. He suffered through many dark nights of the soul, because can you imagine being told that? And he suffered before he began to see his fate as a blessing. And so when I first heard that, I was like, ah, this is just the worst diagnosis you could possibly receive. I don't know how anybody could see that as a blessing.

• 2:00Oprah Winfrey?

  And of course, I wanted to talk to anybody who could see that as a blessing, and that anybody is here today. I know that may be hard for you all to believe, so I wanted to learn too, how he got to this place. He's a renowned psychotherapist and bestselling author. Barry Michaels is here to share with all of us how he became fully alive in the face of dire adversity. He says that we all can, you can, I can, and it doesn't take us a crisis to get there. And his new book, Chronicling, his path from diagnosis to acceptance, is just extraordinary.

• 2:43Oprah Winfrey?

  When I tell you, this is a book you're going to want for yourself, and you absolutely want to gift it to anybody who loves life, is going through a trial, has been through a trial, or just appreciates being human, it's extraordinary. It's called Ahead of All Parting. Barry, thank you for being here.

• 3:07Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 3:08Oprah Winfrey?

  That's just the worst diagnosis I think anybody could ever receive. I think a lot of people fear cancer, but even in fearing cancer, you know, there may be a cure, there may be, even after you've tried all the things, I have a family member going through it now, there's a clinical trial, you know? So there's some glimmer of hope, but a diagnosis like that.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  And also with cancer, your consciousness remains intact. You are still yourself.

• 3:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  The thing about Lewy body dementia and any other form of dementia is you begin to lose what defines you as you.

• 3:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, or what you thought.

• 3:48Speaker 03

  Or at least what you thought.

• 3:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Defines you. So let's begin with how are you today? When I was reading this, I was like, well, will I even be able to talk to you? Because, you know, had it progressed to a point where you wouldn't even be able to have a conversation, so how are you?

• 4:04Speaker 03

  I'm all right. I, you know, I have good days and bad days. This is about a sort of a medium day.

• 4:10Oprah Winfrey?

  And what does that mean?

• 4:11Speaker 03

  What it means is that my brain isn't as sharp as I'm used to it being. I may fumble a little bit with answers. I might not remember parts of the book that I should remember. But I'm not completely fogged out or completely, you know, disoriented or anything like that.

• 4:30Oprah Winfrey?

  So a bad day would have you completely fogged out?

• 4:32Speaker 03

  I, you know, that's a bit of an exaggeration. I wouldn't say that I ever get to that point, but I do have days where I feel like I really shouldn't do psychotherapy today, because I'm not really going to be helpful to the person.

• 4:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Barry Michaels is a Los Angeles-based psychotherapist. He and his longtime collaborator, Phil Stutz, co-wrote the New York Times bestseller, The Tools. Their work uses mental exercises with names like active love, grateful flow, and loss processing. These tools help people confront psychological obstacles and transform them into growth opportunities.

• 5:14Oprah Winfrey?

  So you're still working with patients?

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's still going well. I mean, I'm still doing a good job. I can tell that I'm being effective. You know, it's just so, it's so strange, because there are times when I wake up in the morning and feel like my brain is literally filled with fog. And then I'll, I'll take a run, or I'll get some exercise, and I'll write some poetry, and I'll get back to my office, and I'll see my first person. And the moment I see them on the Zoom screen, or they're in person, I'm there. I'm right back. So it's, it's very variable. And I think one of the reasons I'm still practicing is that I recognize that when

• 6:03Speaker 03

  I'm forced to, I show up, and I show up really well, which is good for me and it's good for them.

• 6:11Oprah Winfrey?

  So do you think then that had you not had the opportunity or the challenge of being forced to show up, that this could have progressed even more? Because you wouldn't have had a reason to show up?

• 6:26Speaker 03

  Exactly. I think if people had coddled me, or if I had coddled myself, I would have deteriorated a lot more quickly.

• 6:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I have to tell you, in my ignorance, I had not heard of Lewy body dementia, and only after reading Ahead of All Parting, did I recognize, as I know many of you will, that apparently this is what Robin Williams also had suffered from.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Yes, he didn't know. He was undiagnosed, which is, we don't know for sure, but probably why he committed suicide, because the symptoms are so distressing. I mean, you just don't know what's happening to you. I can only imagine how horrified he must have felt.

• 7:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so you were diagnosed with the brain disease called Lewy body dementia. For those of us who don't know, and I was one of the many who didn't, as I say, can you explain to us what it is?

• 7:19Speaker 03

  Not really. I mean, it's, it's a brain disease.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  My father had it, and it's what he died of.

• 7:28Oprah Winfrey?

  But did you all know that at the time? Was it diagnosed as that?

• 7:31Speaker 03

  It was diagnosed as Lewy body dementia. And it's, what it involves is a gradual wasting away of the personality. So the person really loses themselves. They lose their sense of.

• 7:47Oprah Winfrey?

  So is it like Alzheimer's? It's a form of dementia, because it's called Lewy body dementia.

• 7:52Speaker 03

  The symptoms are a lot like Alzheimer's. It's, it's worse, there's a, there's something called mixed dementia, which is a combination of Alzheimer's and Lewy body dementia.

• 8:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Would you have that?

• 8:03Speaker 03

  Which that's what I have.

• 8:04Oprah Winfrey?

  I heard you were on, you write in the book that you were on the phone and overheard something about your condition. What happened?

• 8:11Speaker 03

  I was on the phone with my wife. She was actually having a procedure done at the hospital, and I was, I was at the hospital cafeteria, and we were on the phone, because she called me to say, I'm done, you can come pick me up. And then she accidentally didn't hang up when we were done talking, and I overheard her talking to her nurse, saying, you know, he doesn't know it, but he also has Alzheimer's. And at that moment, it's like my blood just ran cold. I just, I just couldn't believe what I was hearing. I held it together until, you know, we got out of the hospital, and she was driving us back.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  And I said, Judy, I heard what you said, you know, do I have Alzheimer's? And she started to cry, and she said, yes. And I'm so sorry I withheld it from you. Our doctor had thought that it would be wise to withhold it from me just for my emotional health, but I needed to know.

• 9:14Oprah Winfrey?

  This is what you write on page 49 of Ahead of All Parting. You say, grief came like a tsunami. My body shook with sobs that made my ribs feel like they were splintering under the weight of loss. My brain, the instrument that had given me every gift, was no longer on my team. It was slipping away.

• 9:41Oprah Winfrey?

  How do you begin to process a loss like that?

• 9:47Speaker 03

  It's shattering. It's truly, truly shattering. Because it's not the same as just being sick. You know, when you're sick, you can feel it in your body, but your mind is still intact. Your identity is still preserved. This promises to destroy your identity, your sense of yourself, which is, I want to call it my most precious possession.

• 10:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Is yourself.

• 10:20Speaker 03

  My sense of myself.

• 10:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. So contemplating losing that was just unimaginably painful.

• 10:30Oprah Winfrey?

  On page 62, you talk about cosmic rage. Can you tell us what that is?

• 10:38Speaker 03

  That is a tool that was devised by my mentor, Phil Stutz, and it's a brilliant tool. It's to be used when you feel like you're under attack. Usually harsh self-criticism, or self-abuse, or the voices in your head telling you you're worthless, that, you know, that kind of thing. And what you do is imagine that those messages are coming from demons. If you don't want to use the word demons, you can use whatever you want, but they're enemies from outside of you. And you imagine that they are attacking your sense of yourself, your sense of well-being, your sense of self-esteem, et cetera, et cetera. And what you do is you gather up all of the rage that you can muster inside of you.

• 11:22Speaker 03

  It's the kind of rage that says, can I swear?

• 11:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, swear.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  That says, you, I'm not going to listen to this. You get the away from me. And you project that rage at the demons, and you push them away. You can't get rid of them. They just are part of human existence. But you push them away, and you can feel this space opening up in front of you where you can breathe.

• 11:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you're not going to let yourself be consumed by that thing.

• 11:50Speaker 03

  Exactly. Like, no way. I'm not going to let you do this to me.

• 11:53Oprah Winfrey?

  It's like in the Bible, Jesus says, get thee behind me, Satan.

• 11:57Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 11:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Get thee behind me, Satan.

• 11:59Speaker 03

  Except in this instance, it's in front of you.

• 12:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes, yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 03

  But yeah, exactly. And I feel that really powerfully when I use that tool. I feel the freedom of expelling those demons.

• 12:11Oprah Winfrey?

  So before this all happened, you and you were working with all of your patients and developing the tools for people to live a better life for themselves.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:21Oprah Winfrey?

  So how did the, what started to happen at first that you noticed something was off?

• 12:26Speaker 03

  Well, I think my wife knew it more than, more quickly than I did. She just noticed that my memory was bad, much worse than it had ever been before. I don't know that I really noticed it that much. I mean,

• 12:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Like you couldn't remember names, couldn't remember?

• 12:43Speaker 03

  Exactly. But I'm the-

• 12:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Would you get confused when you were out?

• 12:47Speaker 03

  Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, like, yeah, we would order at a restaurant, and the waiter would leave. And then five minutes later, I'd say, so when are we going to order? You know, just like ridiculous, you know, memory problems. I'm the kind of person who, with my own medical problems, I just tend to say, ah, whatever, I'll be fine, you know, kind of thing. So I probably would not have paid attention to it. And I'm grateful to my wife for paying attention to it, bringing it to our doctor's attention, and finally getting me diagnosed.

• 13:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And when you heard the diagnosis?

• 13:25Speaker 03

  I don't know that I've ever felt that way before in my life. I mean, it was just shattering. Remember, I knew exactly what this was. Because I watched my father.

• 13:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, would you have started to suspect too, with your memory, when your wife brings it to your attention? Am I going to repeat who my father became?

• 13:44Speaker 03

  I'm so in denial of any medical problems.

• 13:48Oprah Winfrey?

  That you, it didn't even occur to you?

• 13:50Speaker 03

  No.

• 13:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  No, no. I just bull forward. I just sort of push forward through things like that. And I mean, in a way, I'm glad I did. It gave me a little bit more time. But no, this, when, when I was finally given a diagnosis, that shattered the denial.

• 14:09Oprah Winfrey?

  You know what? I think when anybody gets a diagnosis or a crisis shows up in, in our lives, the first thing we ask is, why, why, why? Why is this happening to me now? And you write that this disease was invited into your life for a reason. And I just think, on page 61, where you say, "I was beginning to sense that the suffering had direction, that there was something to be forged in it. More courage," you write. "More depth, more love. The prize wasn't relief, it was transformation. This was adversity with purpose, and it was the road I was meant to walk."

• 14:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow. I mean, and this, this has only been in process for three years.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:03Oprah Winfrey?

  So you came to this pretty quickly.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. My life philosophy is everything that happens to you, even and in fact, especially the worst things that happen to you, are there for a reason. Doesn't mean that they aren't incredibly painful. I don't mean to minimize that. But they happen for a reason. And if you can look at life that way, then you can use those things to help you transform yourself.

• 15:31Oprah Winfrey?

  And you know, I've, I've often said, things are happening for you, not just to you. But I've been able to determine that after I've gotten through the thing.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:42Oprah Winfrey?

  You know? It's really, it's easier after you've gotten through the thing to be able to say, oh, I now see what that was for.

• 15:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:49Oprah Winfrey?

  It's really hard when you're in the middle of the diagnosis that is telling you you're going to lose your ability to be mobile, to speak, and most importantly, who's who you were, how you know yourself to be on, on, on the planet. Why do you believe that this was the road that you were meant to walk?

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Well, I believe it philosophically because I just, that's my belief about life. Adversity has a purpose.

• 16:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Doesn't mean it isn't painful. And I'm empathic with people who are facing adversity.

• 16:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 03

  But it has a purpose. It is supposed to transform.

• 16:29Oprah Winfrey?

  And doesn't mean the reason is, is that you're, you're responsible for the reason, or that you brought the reason on yourself?

• 16:34Speaker 03

  No, or that it's a punishment.

• 16:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Or that it's a punishment. I, I love that line from Eckhart Tolle in A New Earth, where he says, "Life will give you exactly the experience you need for the evolution of your consciousness."

• 16:47Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 16:47Oprah Winfrey?

  And how do you know that's the experience you need? Because that's the experience you are having.

• 16:51Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 16:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 03

  Exactly. And that's a, look, that's a wonderful way to live because then you can embrace every event, regardless of how adverse it is, or how painful it is. It, it still has a positive purpose.

• 17:05Oprah Winfrey?

  It's showing up for you.

• 17:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 17:07Oprah Winfrey?

  And your journey here on this planet at this time.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 17:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Because that's the path you were meant to walk.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 17:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Not what you wanted to do.

• 17:16Speaker 03

  It was the path that you were meant to walk, and it evokes strengths that you were meant to develop. So.

• 17:26Oprah Winfrey?

  When you started to look at it that way, what shifted for you in this process? Because, because you remember this long time ago, I think it was somebody named Rollins wrote a book. It's called First You Cry. When she was diagnosed with cancer, first you cry. So first you cried. Yeah, you did cry.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. Yeah.

• 17:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 17:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you allow others to see you cry? Did you share your crying with others?

• 17:49Speaker 03

  That's just what I was going to talk about. I had, I, I grew up in a very, very troubled family. And it was impossible to open up in my family because whatever you said would be used against you. So I learned to be very closed, very protective, and in a certain way selfish, although I didn't think of it as selfish. I thought of it as self-protective.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  When LBD hit.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  That shifted, and it shifted dramatically. Two days after the diagnosis, in fact, I remember sitting in my office on the couch. And I called, I must have called 25 people. Now, you're gonna understand, I wouldn't call 25 people in a single day, ever. Ever. And maybe over six months, you know, but not in one day. And I called them to tell them about the diagnosis and to elicit their support, which also was completely strange for me. And as I was making the calls, I realized, oh, I'm not just telling people to give them information.

• 19:10Speaker 03

  I'm changing the trajectory of my life from one of extreme secrecy and self-protectiveness and to one that is open and connected. I want my life to be connected to other people. And that was one of the most startling and dramatic shifts that I've ever experienced in my life.

• 19:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I think the decision to choose not to hide, to choose not to hide, is just huge.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  For me, it was huge, because I would have hidden it in the past.

• 19:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and, and the energy that it takes then to hide, to cover up, to pretend, to not show up for things, but giving no explanation or excuses or false excuses and all of that.

• 20:02Speaker 03

  Not to mention, not to mention the fact that you just, you forego all of that love and support that you could have gotten from people. That was dangerous for me, for whatever reason, growing up in my family. So I just walled that off.

• 20:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Every story we share on the Oprah Podcast comes from a place of intention. Each guest has their own journey. And my hope is that sharing it with us here can help light the way for somebody else. And as the official insurance partner of this podcast, Geico understands that every journey feels a little easier when you know you have support along the way. It's the time of year when the weather changes, days get shorter, calendars fill up, and you find yourself back in motion again, taking the kids to school, running errands, heading home after the sun sets. During these busy days, it's the people who show up in small, steady ways who make the season feel a little lighter. The friend who stops by with a home-cooked dinner.

• 21:01Oprah Winfrey?

  The partner who surprises you by filling up your gas tank. These are the everyday moments that remind us, we are supported. That kind of support matters on the road and in life. Geico helps you stay covered through the turns, the transitions, and the everyday miles. Because with the right support, we keep driving forward. And that, dear listener, is everything.

• 21:32Oprah Winfrey?

  So you all should know that Barry Michaels has had a thriving therapy practice in Los Angeles for many years. And one of his clients is Drew Barrymore, who joins us now. Hi, Drew. Great to see you, as always. I know you're taping today there in New York, so thanks for making time for us. You've called Barry one of your greatest influences. Talk about how he has impacted your life and what this moment means.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  It's so interesting to listen to everything you're saying. I think that Barry has given that directive and that inertia to certainly me, as far as not hiding, to embrace what you are going through as not a victim, to look at your choices and see how they are affecting you. And Barry has never been one to tell me at least what I should do

• 22:42Speaker 01

  or when I should do it, or how I should do it, or who to do it with. It's in his practice. And I think the succinct way that he explains the tools in this book, I have studied certain tools with him for over 15 years. And the way he writes them in this book is so lightbulb because the tools are so incredible and so effective. And I am so glad that he did not hold himself back or close himself off as he would do in his home, growing up.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Because that's exactly what he has done for all of his patients, certainly me. I should stay in my own lane and speak for myself. And I think with this book, and certainly what I've experienced over the last three years, since his diagnosis, speaking to him on a weekly basis, is that he is opening more. And thanks to this book, as you so perfectly put it, we have this evidence of a choice that we can make when something comes in our path that is either detrimental and the end, or the beginning of something.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  And so it's all in keeping with the Barry I know.

• 24:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I know you went through a difficult divorce in 2016, I think it was. And, and do you believe, as Barry does, that challenges, crises, difficulties show up to reveal a greater truth? Did you find that, or was he helpful in allowing you to excavate that for yourself?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  I think it's the perfect balance of accountability. He helped me see what my choices and patterns were. Because if something keeps presenting itself over and over, what is your part in this? And also that if this is continuing to present itself and it is not of your doing, it is there because you have not mastered it yet. And there is tools and a roadmap to get there. And it is looking at yourself and doing this very focused work

• 25:17Speaker 01

  that has a tangible guidance to it. And I have hit rock bottom the hardest in my life at that point. And I thought I had hit rock bottom at 13. And this was so much bigger than that.

• 25:40Oprah Winfrey?

  I know you stopped working with Drew for a while because of her drinking during that time. And as, as a therapist, was that difficult for you as a decision?

• 25:48Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's always, I mean, especially because I love Drew. I, it was hard to say,

• 25:56Oprah Winfrey?

  I'm not gonna work with him.

• 25:57Speaker 03

  I can't do this, yeah. But I just felt like, I honestly, I felt like I owed it to her and to myself. Like, we just weren't making progress. And I knew we wouldn't until she stopped.

• 26:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and you took that seriously.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  It was the best thing that could have happened to me. I've never respected a human being more because it demonstrated something for me that I could not understand, which is to have a level of self-respect, to know you're not getting somewhere with someone or anywhere. And you will not until things change. And it taught me a boundary that I just never knew growing up. My life was boundaryless, my job was boundaryless, my behavior was boundaryless. And it also, in not having parents or siblings, for me, I think it is what I would think of as a familial way to care about someone,

• 26:58Speaker 01

  which is, I recognize this in you, and I no longer will stand around and watch it.

• 27:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. So what have you learned watching Barry move through this devastating illness? I mean, as I was open this conversation, is there anything worse we can hear than you're gonna lose yourself?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Well, thanks to Barry, being on this journey with him, reading his book, speaking to him about it, it gave me confidence and courage in our sessions to ask how he's doing. And through being with him in the last few years, he has helped me understand that we can make peace with things and our greatest devastations can become our greatest strengths. We lack in control in this world and in this life, and it just scares us into paralysis. And this is the opposite of that.

• 28:07Oprah Winfrey?

  So I have to say, it's incredible what you've been able to actually learn from each other, right? Yeah. So, thank you, Drew Barrymore. Thank you so much for joining us. I know you gotta get back to work.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me always, anytime, anywhere. Goodbye, and I love you, Barry. Thank you so much.

• 28:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Bye, Drew. Maybe you're feeling it too, with so many ways to reach each other. It can be easy to mistake being reachable for being truly connected. But I've learned that what many people are longing for is just to be heard, truly heard, by another person. That's what we're trying to do here on the Oprah Podcast. I see you contemplating, and I can see that you're seeing yourself a different way after he said that. Making space for real connection. Because every time we stop and actually listen to each other, something shifts, something opens. AT&T believes that too. The right connection at the right moment between the right people

• 29:13Oprah Winfrey?

  can change the course of a day, a relationship, and even a whole life. So the next time you reach for your phone to call someone you love, know that AT&T is with you, keeping that connection strong. Because AT&T is there when the connection matters. And connecting changes everything.

• 29:40Oprah Winfrey?

  So as we were speaking, you're still seeing patients. How has this journey changed you as a therapist?

• 29:50Speaker 03

  You know, I'm much more open than I've ever been before. Not just with my patients, but with my friends, with really with everybody.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  I think it's also strangely and maybe paradoxically, it's made me trust my instincts more. Possibly because I can't really rely on my intellect as faithfully as I used to. So in the absence of that, I have to sort of close my eyes and listen and hear what's coming up inside of me and say that.

• 30:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Isn't that a good thing?

• 30:27Speaker 03

  It's a great thing, actually. I mean, I don't always trust that something's gonna come up. You know, sometimes I'm just sitting there waiting like, what's gonna happen here? But you know, more often than not, something does come up. And I love those insights. They're much better than the ones that I come up with.

• 30:44Oprah Winfrey?

  How has it changed the way you see every day? Has it changed the way you look at life, you know?

• 30:52Speaker 03

  It's a really good question. I'm not sure.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  I'm not sure it's changed the way I look at life. I appreciate life so much more than I used to.

• 31:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so it's changed the way you appreciate life?

• 31:09Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. It just feels so precious to me, so much more so than it used to.

• 31:17Oprah Winfrey?

  And the diagnosis is what? That says you have how many years before you?

• 31:21Speaker 03

  Five to seven.

• 31:23Oprah Winfrey?

  And you're in the third?

• 31:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, although that's Lewy body dementia. Mixed dementia, I think, might be shorter than that. I'm not sure. And so I honestly, I try not to like, look at that.

• 31:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Not to think about it.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:34Oprah Winfrey?

  So while preparing this episode, we heard from many of you who are dealing with your own health struggles and wanted to ask Barry for his advice. Alicia joins us. Alicia, what's going on? Hello.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Hi, thanks for having me.

• 31:50Oprah Winfrey?

  This book, I just think it's one of the most beautiful, certainly memoirs I've ever read. And it's so truthful and resonates so powerfully. Whatever anybody's going through, reading this, this is gonna be one of those books you keep by your bedside forever. But so welcome and give us your question.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Really quick, I'm a 43-year-old stay-at-home mom. I have four kids. And a couple of months ago in July, I was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. And my question for you is,

• 32:20Speaker 02

  do you feel guilty for having your diagnosis?

• 32:25Speaker 03

  It's a good question. I sense that you do. I don't, mostly because in my family, we have a kind of reciprocal caretaking relationship. I take care of my wife with, you know, her medical problems. And she takes care of me. And it helps that she doesn't make me feel bad about it. Are you struggling with that?

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Yes. I don't feel sorry for myself. I feel more sorry for my husband and my kids. Because I know that one day I can't be the wife and the mother that I want to be.

• 33:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  And right now, I'm kind of in the it's not fair phase. Why me?

• 33:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  How do you overcome the guilt of knowing that you'll never be the same?

• 33:19Speaker 03

  Look, I can't tell you how to view this, but I can tell you that it will help if you think of it as something that was supposed to happen. I know that that's difficult. But the problem is that if you look at it as something that shouldn't have happened, then you're fighting against something you can't win. You're fighting against reality. And that fight can only lead to resentment and a sense of victimization, which is just an awful place to live in, you know? So what I try to teach my patients to do, and what I do myself,

• 34:00Speaker 03

  is to try to imagine that whatever you believe in, whether it's God, or fate, or the universe, or whatever, it wanted me to go through this for a reason. And usually, the reason has to do with strength. It has to do with having the fortitude and the courage to overcome something even though you're suffering from it. And to overcome it to the degree that you can put out the best energy that you can to other people despite the fact that you're suffering from it. So how does that land with you?

• 34:37Speaker 02

  It's, I think just right now, it's just hard to accept.

• 34:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Keyword.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Right now.

• 34:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Keyword is accept.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Manageable.

• 34:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Keyword is accept. Because all grief, you're grieving the mother you wanted to be. You're grieving the wife you wanted to be. You're grieving. And you know, part of the stages of grief is getting to acceptance. So you're still angry about it and sad about it, of course. Of course.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, more sad than angry. I try not to hold on to the anger, but definitely frustrated and sad about the future of my family.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. I know this sounds like it wouldn't help, but I think it would if you do it repeatedly. When you feel that resentment, sadness, feeling of like, I don't want this to be happening, see if you can close your eyes and just accept that whether I want it to be happening or not, it is happening. And there's nothing that I can do to change that. And that might initially make you wanna cry because it's sad. But that's the next stage for you to go through to get to acceptance,

• 35:56Speaker 03

  is an acceptance that this is happening no matter what I think of it, whether I like it or hate it or anything else. Once you can go through that enough times, I think you're actually gonna be a lot happier because you'll be in acceptance of what's happening to you. And you'll be able to stop feeling guilty about your family, stop feeling bad about the disease, you know, and just live in a greater place of acceptance.

• 36:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Because right now, I appreciated what you said to her. You're fighting against something that you can't win.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 36:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Because you're wanting it to be what it is not going to be ever again.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  All day, every day, I treat people who want their life to be different from what it is. But they can't make it different. It's God's will, or it's fate, or whatever you wanna call it. But it's invariable. It's not in their power to change it. And when that happens, you have to accept a level of powerlessness that's uncomfortable for most of us to accept.

• 36:59Oprah Winfrey?

  But also, you got to this stage of acceptance. You had your cries. You had your grieving, your sadness, your anger, even denial about it.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 37:12Oprah Winfrey?

  So we're gonna allow you that space, Alicia, and hope and pray that you get to acceptance sooner than where you are right now.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 37:26Speaker 03

  Can I say one other thing about that? It'll be one of the greatest gifts that you can give.

• 37:31Oprah Winfrey?

  To your family.

• 37:32Speaker 03

  To your family.

• 37:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  Because whether they know it or not consciously, they sense that you're fighting with what you're going through.

• 37:40Oprah Winfrey?

  They feel your resistance.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Your family feels your resistance. How old are your children?

• 37:47Speaker 02

  My youngest is 10, and my oldest is 21.

• 37:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, well, I was gonna say, no matter how young or old they are, even if there are young ones in the house, they sense that resistance in some way. Energetically, they will feel the vibration of whatever that is. And so I think because you are such a caring, loving mother, and your question was about feeling guilty about what's going to happen to them, that having the perspective of knowing that you're getting to acceptance sooner actually is going to help them, rather than you resisting as you are. And I know it's your own journey to get there. Nobody's telling you how soon you have to get there. But the sooner you get there, as we're hearing, the better it's gonna be for everybody in the family, not just for you.

• 38:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Because they can feel where you are, yeah. And you all, and whether you like it or not, or have accepted it or not, this is a journey that your family is going to have to take together. So the dream that you had shifts.

• 38:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:54Oprah Winfrey?

  The dream that you had shifts, and now you have another dream. You create another dream.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  That's exactly right.

• 39:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  Exactly right.

• 39:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Alicia. Thank you. Thank you so much.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 39:04Oprah Winfrey?

  All right. How has this impacted your relationship with your wife Judy? You were talking about how you all work in tandem. I think that helps when you have somebody who understands and cares and.

• 39:18Speaker 03

  My wife is a therapist also, and I'm sorry.

• 39:25Speaker 03

  It has brought us so close together. And it has allowed me to, I'm a very, very self-reliant person. I learned very early on not to depend on anybody. And I have let down and depended on her in ways that I never thought were possible. I, it's astonishing how much closer we are to each other as a result of this. I mean, it's one of those strange paradoxical things where horrible reality has just really brought us.

• 39:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, because you cannot help but be vulnerable.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:00Oprah Winfrey?

  And vulnerability is what creates the greatest sense of connection and intimacy, does it not?

• 40:06Speaker 03

  Beautifully said.

• 40:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Exactly right. And let me say one other thing about that. My wife is an extraordinarily sensitive, caretaking person. I mean, she just takes such good care of me as well. So it's not just that I've leaned on her. It's that I've seen a side of her that I, I sort of knew existed because I saw it with my kids and I saw it with her friends. But to be the recipient of it has been life-changing.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  Just life-changing.

• 40:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Let's hear from one more listener. Alex, what's your question for Barry? Hi, Alex.

• 40:46Speaker 04

  How are you doing? Thank you for having me, Oprah. And thank you, Barry, for just being vulnerable and sharing your story. A little bit about me, I'm a personal trainer from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Three years ago, at 37, my life changed completely. I went to the ER thinking I might have kidney stones, only to find out my blood pressure was 260 over 150. And after some more testing, I was told I had stage four kidney failure and would need a new kidney. Immediately started dialysis and thankfully received a kidney from my sister later that year. Now, all the medications I'm on prevent me daily from doing the things I used to do. I'm just a very fit person.

• 41:26Speaker 04

  And I feel like part of my identity I built over the years was taken away from me. So my question to Barry is, how did you learn to let go of the person that you were and embrace the person you're becoming? Also, like, how did you make peace with that transition?

• 41:45Speaker 03

  It took time. And what I had to do was actively let go of the things that were being taken away from me. You know, my first reaction, and I suspected probably yours, is this isn't fair. It shouldn't be happening to me. And unfortunately, that's pretty worthless because it is happening to you, whether you like it or not. So I had to overcome that. And I had to say to myself what I say to my patients, which, which is, it doesn't matter what you think should be happening. Your opinions don't matter in this instance. Reality is what matters. And the reality is you have to let go of certain things.

• 42:29Speaker 03

  What I also used was a tool that my mentor, Phil Stutz, calls loss processing. It's a way of processing a loss. You take the thing that you're, that you're losing and you sort of visualize it in front of you. And then you imagine it being taken away from you. But instead of resisting it, which we all do, you let go of it. You actively let it go. And you watch as it sort of disappears over the horizon. And a lot of times I cry at that point because I don't really want to let go, but I'm, I am letting go. And you let go and then you're left with a feeling of completeness because you're

• 43:12Speaker 03

  no longer holding on to something that you can't have anyway. Let me explain that for a moment. When you're holding on to something that you can't actually have, you feel incomplete because you don't have the thing that you want to have. Letting go of it actually allows you to feel whole because you're not, you're not wishing for something you can't have.

• 43:34Oprah Winfrey?

  It's again, like, like you were saying earlier, you, you, you heard what he was saying to Alicia, fighting against something that you cannot win. And so what is it you fear most having to let go of?

• 43:48Speaker 04

  I feel just letting go of who I've known myself to be over the past 40 years of my life. And just the unexpected of it getting taken away and you really had no say. You couldn't mentally get yourself ready for that transition. You were forced into that transition.

• 44:08Oprah Winfrey?

  So now you're in the process of reinventing?

• 44:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. I think that's actually exciting.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  I'm enjoying the journey, but still trying to let go.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  It is. It may not feel exciting in the initial stages, but it is exciting.

• 44:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Yeah. So the question isn't, the question then doesn't become about who I've had to let go, but now who can I be?

• 44:28Speaker 03

  Yes. Who am I going to become? And if you can, try to cultivate some anticipatory excitement about that. Like, who knows? I may be, I may be better than I was before, for all I know. You, you never know.

• 44:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. But if your identity has always been in the physical, you know, your ability to, your prowess in physicality.

• 44:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 44:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Then maybe it means you're being opened and expanded to something that you never even imagined, Alex?

• 45:02Speaker 04

  Yes. That's honestly, I'm looking forward to it. I've let go a little bit, but I'm, I'm still holding on a little to the, to the past.

• 45:10Oprah Winfrey?

  You're not, are you still in the why me? Are you, are you still in the why me stage?

• 45:15Speaker 04

  I was never in that stage, actually.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  Good.

• 45:17Speaker 04

  I, I was more, okay, this is an issue. Let's fix it and let's start the steps to get back to a normal way of living.

• 45:25Speaker 03

  Right. You're, you're more, for you, it's more like, I just don't want this to be happening.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:34Oprah Winfrey?

  How long ago was the transplant? How long ago?

• 45:37Speaker 04

  December 2023. So it'll be three years this December.

• 45:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. Grateful to have had your sister's kidney. Wow.

• 45:45Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 45:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Thank you, Alex. Thank you.

• 45:47Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 45:48Speaker 04

  Thank you very much.

• 45:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. You write about too, how this experience has revealed God's love for you. And I read that you were one, and one time you were an atheist. So tell about, how did that happen?

• 46:05Speaker 03

  That's the strangest part of this story because I was raised in a household that was not just atheistic, but militantly atheistic. I mean, my mother used to school me in the refutations of the arguments in favor of God. Like, it was almost like she, I don't know what she expected, but, but just in case I was ever exposed to anyone who believed in God and tried to convince me that God existed, I had an argument for every argument that they.

• 46:34Oprah Winfrey?

  And didn't that happen younger too?

• 46:36Speaker 03

  Yes. Oh, yeah.

• 46:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 03

  I know it started almost at birth. I mean, she was really, really intensely atheistic. Both my parents were. I'm sorry.

• 46:46Oprah Winfrey?

  And not even wanting anybody to talk to you about God. Yeah. If somebody mentioned God or a kid mentioned God.

• 46:52Speaker 03

  No, I, I slept over at a friend's, my friend's house.

• 46:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 46:56Speaker 03

  And the family was Catholic. And when we went to bed, they said the Lord's Prayer and I didn't really think anything of it. I thought it was actually kind of sweet. But when I got home and made the mistake of telling my mother, she got very upset. And she, I, I remember being schooled for about a week every night about how we refute the belief in God, you know, in case anybody tries to convince you, you know, that God is real, this is how, this is what you have to say.

• 47:28Oprah Winfrey?

  I just love that. Don't you go over there saying the Lord's Prayer.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  Wild.

• 47:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Wild, wild.

• 47:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:35Oprah Winfrey?

  And so now you call it the life force, which I love, I love. I have so many names for God. So the life force. I remember I used to have these conversations with Sidney Poitier. He would always say the forces. I would use it, use the term God and he would say, well, the forces. And I would say, why can't you just call it God? He goes, why can't you just call it the, the forces? So wherever you are now, Sidney, I agree with you and you probably now agree with me. So what, what happened?

• 48:09Speaker 03

  I had an extraordinary experience and I kept having it over and over again, which was soon after I was diagnosed. One of the, just so you know, one of the symptoms of the disease is that you wake up incredibly early. I get up at two or three in the morning, every morning.

• 48:27Speaker 03

  Which weirdly I have come not to mind because it's kind of a magical time, you know? It's very dark.

• 48:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Means you just wake up?

• 48:35Speaker 03

  I wake up when I go to my office. And I found myself more and more getting down on my knees to pray, even though I wasn't sure I believed in God. I just was felt like called to do that. And very soon after I was diagnosed, I was up there one morning, it was very dark outside, very quiet. And I was praying silently. There weren't any words or anything. I was just asking for help.

• 49:06Speaker 03

  And I felt this unmistakable presence in the room with me. And I, I couldn't believe it. Like, I was like, come on. This isn't really happening, is it?

• 49:21Speaker 03

  But it was really happening. It was a real presence. And it was a comforting presence. It was

• 49:31Speaker 03

  something I'd never really experienced before, like a, like a presence that really wanted to reach me and help me and soothe me. And that happened every single morning for several years. It sort of faded out after a while. I think it had played its purpose, which was to give me an immediate experience of a higher power that I then used to soothe myself with and to make me feel.

• 50:04Oprah Winfrey?

  So you know it's there. I mean, I feel that presence all the time.

• 50:07Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 50:08Oprah Winfrey?

  It abides with me.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  That's amazing. And it was not the God that I had been used to reading about. It wasn't a transcendent and it was imminent. It was right here, right now. And loving me with immense force.

• 50:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Life force.

• 50:27Speaker 03

  Life force.

• 50:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Life force. Yeah, I love that title for it. This is from one of your poems. Do you write all the time?

• 50:36Speaker 03

  Every day.

• 50:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Every day? And this is called Death Dance with the Divine. You say, "Take it from someone who's dying. God doesn't really care what you choose to do with your life. What God cares about is not what you choose to do, but how you do it. God wants to see you pursuing life with your blood, your guts, your heart and your soul, the all-consuming divine fire you have inside you. So when people ask me, what did you do when you found out you were living under a death sentence?

• 51:20Oprah Winfrey?

  My answer is, I gave it all away, all of it. Every last drop, and I danced with the divine. That is so beautiful.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 51:36Oprah Winfrey?

  I know writing, especially poetry, has become like a balm, like a salvation for you. So what, what, what does it do for you, the writing?

• 51:50Speaker 03

  I think more than anything else, it gives me a chance to express myself creatively. I'm, I'm kind of a freak for beauty and of all sorts, like the beauty of nature, the beauty of language, the beauty of God. And writing is the medium that I'm most familiar and comfortable with. So when I write poetry, and I, I almost hesitate to say I write poetry because it feels like it writes me, like it comes through me, not from me. But that's, that's my first experience each day with beauty is, oh, these words are spilling out, coming through me and they're...

• 52:36Speaker 03

  I don't really care whether anyone else likes it or, you know, evaluates it or anything. It just, it's just the way my soul needs to create beauty is through poetry.

• 52:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Can you explain the concept of outflow that you talk about?

• 52:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 52:52Oprah Winfrey?

  And you experienced outflow at a batting cage. Tell us that story.

• 52:55Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 52:58Speaker 03

  So just to start with outflow, outflow is a tool that you use

• 53:04Speaker 03

  when you're feeling blocked, or when you're feeling down, or when you're feeling disconnected from people. What you do is, it's a very simple tool. You imagine that there's an infinite amount of energy inside of you, inside your heart, which I actually believe is, is real, but you imagine it. So it's sort of like the sun is shining from inside of you. And then what you do is you take that energy and you flow it out to everything and everyone around you. And what that does is it creates a feeling of, I belong here. I belong here. And I am meant to be an avatar of sacred energy.

• 53:48Speaker 03

  And every human being is. So it helps with lots of different things. It helps with depression. It helps with self-expression problems, you know, expressing yourself. It helps with connecting with people when you can, you know, go to a party where you don't know anybody and you can use outflow. You're gonna find it easier to talk to people, you know? So it's, it's a multi-purpose tool, but it's a tool that I use a lot because in my childhood, for self-protective reasons, I developed the habit of shutting down and turning inward. And that's terrible for a person. It's, it cuts you off from resources that you have.

• 54:28Speaker 03

  So outflow redirects my energy and puts me back in the posture where I'm potent and I have something to give.

• 54:36Oprah Winfrey?

  And the batting cage story?

• 54:38Speaker 03

  And the batting cage story was such a delightful event. A friend was driving me back home and we passed a batting cage. And we just sort of looked at each other like, a batting cage? Really? You think we should go do this? Yeah, like I'm in my 70s.

• 55:00Speaker 03

  And we decided, yeah, let's go for it. So we went to the batting cage. And we had the craziest good time I've had in so many years. It felt so good to be back in that, to feel my body, like I used to love playing baseball. And he did too. And we just, we, we both just marveled at the end of it, how delightful it was and how wonderful. Part of it was just the sheer spontaneity.

• 55:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Spontaneity of it.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:33Oprah Winfrey?

  It sounds like the spontaneity of it.

• 55:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:35Oprah Winfrey?

  In that moment, yes.

• 55:36Speaker 03

  And part of it was just returning to youth and feeling those muscles in your body that you haven't used in such a long time. And just the feeling of like, oh my God, I can still hit a baseball.

• 55:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Here's what you write about mortality. You say, "The life expectancy of someone, you know, with your diagnosis is five to seven years." And you were diagnosed three years ago, we were saying earlier. "The closer I come to leaving this world, the more vivid everything becomes. The slant of light on the floorboards, the sound of my wife breathing beside me, the taste of water. It all feels saturated with divinity. The world hasn't changed. I have." So how have you come to see your own mortality?

• 56:34Speaker 03

  I know this sounds strange, but I've come to see it as a blessing because it has awakened those, those feelings. And, look, the truth is, I was gonna die anyway. We all are. But in my case, the way it happened enabled me to see life with a whole new, whole new vision, a whole new way of looking. So, look, I cried every single day for the first year, every day. I wept bitterly. But now I'm in a different place. It's like,

• 57:20Speaker 03

  it's strange to say, but this was a good thing. It awakened my soul in ways that I don't think that it ever would have been awakened. So, go figure.

• 57:34Oprah Winfrey?

  What's, yeah, go figure. What's the, what's the big takeaway, the one lesson you'd like people reading Ahead of All Parting or listening to us right now to receive? What do you want us to know?

• 57:50Speaker 03

  I think what I, what I would say is the big lesson, at least from me, from all of this, is don't be so sure that the things that you hate, that, that the things that feel adverse, you know, that you... Don't be so sure that they're so bad or that they're absolutely bad. There's something good in every single experience that you have in your life. And the worse the experience is, the more it kind of shatters the things that need to be shattered and awakens the things that need to be awakened. And it's so important for us to be able to accept those lessons and grow from them.

• 58:36Oprah Winfrey?

  I want to talk about the title Ahead of All Parting. Where did that title come from?

• 58:43Speaker 03

  It's a poem by Reina Maria Roca, who's one of my favorite poets. And what Roca is saying in the poem is that we need to get ahead of death in the sense of anticipating that our lives will come to an end, which means that this moment matters. If there's no death, then this moment doesn't matter because you have an infinite number of them to come. So it's, I love that poem because it...

• 59:14Oprah Winfrey?

  The first line is, "Be ahead of all parting as if it had already happened."

• 59:19Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly. So he's telling us, grab life, take a hold of it, make each moment meaningful. Don't treat it as if you had an infinite number of moments because you don't, you know, kind of thing. So that's, that's what I take from the poem.

• 59:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I, first of all, I want you to close by reading your poem because at the end of the book, you write a final poem for the reader.

• 59:51Oprah Winfrey?

  And before that, I just would like to say, I just think it's just so courageous of you, daring of you, and I'm so grateful to you for making the trip up here today. Because, first of all, as I said to you, when I first read this, I was wondering, are you going to be okay? And I'm sure you had to think yourself, am I going to be okay for this interview today?

• 1:00:19Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:20Oprah Winfrey?

  And I want you to know, you are very much okay.

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:00:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Very much okay.

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:00:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Very much. Thank you.

• 1:00:30Oprah Winfrey?

  And now you can read us your point. We're going to close with your point.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  Empty yourself of knowing. Yearn without shame. Give without calculation. Dance when you can. Cry when you must. Every act of surrender is an opening through which God can enter.

• 1:00:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Every act of surrender is an opening through which God can enter.

• 1:01:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Barry Michaels. A big thank you to the wonderful Drew Barrymore and to Alicia and Alex. Thank you two for listening and asking your questions. I really, I cannot recommend a book any stronger. I hope you'll pick up a copy of Ahead of All Parting for yourself or someone you love, who may be in need of Barry's wisdom. And go well, everybody. Barry Michaels' extraordinary memoir, Ahead of All Parting, is available now. This book is filled with so much insight, perspective, wisdom. I hope you pick up a copy for yourself and somebody you love. Just scan the QR code there on your screen.

• 1:01:43Oprah Winfrey?

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