“Muslims Will Be OFFENDED” - Sam Shamoun Reveals Quran & Prophet Muhammad Contradictions | PBD Podcast | Ep. 684

Christian apologist Sam Shamoun joins Patrick Bet-David for a bold talk on faith, courage, and conviction. From debating Islam to defending the Bible, Sam shares his mission, trials, and belief that truth must be spoken no matter the cost. A raw and fearless conversation about faith in action. ------ ✝️ "FAITH OVER FEAR COLLECTION: https://bit.ly/4nAU1Qe?r=qr 📕 REGISTER FOR BPW 2025 - FRIDAY, DECEMBER 12TH 2025: ⁠https://bit.ly/3IU2YWx⁠ https://bit.ly/3IU2YWx Ⓜ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4kSVkso⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4kSVkso Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4g57zR2 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4eXQl6A⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4eXQl6A 🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj 🍋 ZEST IT FORWARD: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4kJ71lc ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4kJ71lc 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/41rtEV4⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/41rtEV4 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or 💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! ABOUT US: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, theHouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Imagine building an app with your name on it. With Base44, describe what you want and watch it take shape. Plan, customize, and expand in any direction with payments, data, security, and hosting built in. Go to base44.com.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  If we all believed the same thing, we'd be the same religion. According to the New Testament, it's gonna hurt people. Muhammad is an antichrist. There are many antichrists who come into the world. And I know Muslims will get offended, but it is what it is.

• 0:55Patrick Bet-David?

  What happened with you and Jenko?

• 0:57Speaker 02

  Give him some time. There was a misunderstanding, and that's fine.

• 1:01Patrick Bet-David?

  Have you guys spoken since, or no?

• 1:03Speaker 02

  Go find people where they're at, invite them to Islam, and if they accept, they're safe. If not, take the jizya from them, and if not, kill them, and to the victor goes the spoils.

• 1:12Patrick Bet-David?

  How you go where you were at to now being able to sit down against any Muslim, pretty much, and have a strong debate with them?

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Most Muslims are shocked to hear when I say, "Oh, Hazrat Aisha, did you know she was nine when Muhammad deflowered her?" You're a liar. You're lying. "Can you tell me how to invite Jesus?" She thought I was crazy. "What are you talking about?" But I remember crying out to him. You know, and I said, "Jesus, I don't know how to invite you in, but I want you in my life." I'm not supposed to cry, I'm Jiddu.

• 1:40Patrick Bet-David?

  There's something very different about you that you're a complicated human being.

• 2:02Speaker 04

  Adam, what's your point? The future looks bright? My handshake is better than anything I ever signed, right here. You are a 101? My son's right.

• 2:12Speaker 05

  I don't think I've ever said this before.

• 2:19Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay, we have a special guest in the house. It's very rare you will get three Assyrians in the room doing a podcast. But we're pulling it off today. We have Vincent O'Shaughnessy, obviously we know Mr. Hanson, the Assyrian Al Pacino-looking Vinnie, and then we have the great Sam Shamoun in the house.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Shlamar Lohun.

• 2:39Patrick Bet-David?

  Shlamar Lohun.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Achton Maitun. By the way, just for the people to know, just like you have 12 tribes of Israel, we have many tribes of Assyria. And each tribe has a clan. So I'm from the Giluk tribe. If you do a little history about us, we're known as the Warrior Tribe. Even we speak like warriors. Agamini, yitamr nanu shmalu. So the Gilus are now gonna be rejoicing now that I spoke here.

• 3:03Patrick Bet-David?

  They're happy. Yeah, so you know, the first time I was turned on by your content was an old friend of ours, Marvin. He says, "You gotta watch this guy." And I'm like, "This guy's incredible, so capable, talented." And then, obviously, we invited you to have you on a podcast. And then, eventually, we were able to get you to be here. And I'm happy we're finally doing this.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Well, glory to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I always ask the Spirit to fill me, to help me, to point people to Christ, and not bring attention to any of us, because there's a danger among not just politics or even celebrity figures, even in the apologetic realm of what I call "cult of personality", where you are drawn to a person and you idolize him. And so, by the grace of God, in this field, there can be no idols. So it cannot be about me and how great I am. And because we are all struggling in the flesh, sometimes our ego loves to be praised. And I have to check that, right?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  So glory to Jesus Christ for the gifts He's given me. But I pray in this session, I disappear and Jesus shines through me, and that through this message, everyone will be filled with the Spirit to know that Christ is the only hope of salvation. And he has to be the king of every sphere of our life, not just religiously, but politically.

• 4:30Patrick Bet-David?

  Sam, if somebody goes and searches you and they type in your name and they go to Views, it's you and Muslims, back and forth. Let's play one of them, Rob. Play, actually play the other one. Play this one here first. Is this your first public debate? So this is your first public debate. Go ahead, Rob.

• 4:49Speaker 06

  A woman can be beaten according to the glorious Quran. Now, do you want to get into a long discussion as to what is the position of women in the Quran and the Bible? I mean, we can do that. The Book of Revelation, Chapter 14, Verses 4 and 5, shows that women will not enter paradise.

• 5:06Speaker 07

  He talks about Revelation 14. That doesn't work. Read the context. It's speaking of 144,000 of Israel who were specifically chosen for a task. After mentioning the 144,000, this is what you conveniently forgot. Revelation 7, Verse 9, "I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands, and they cried out in a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne and to the Lamb.'" That's the context. Do not misquote my scripture.

• 5:50Patrick Bet-David?

  So, I mean, this is where a lot of the stuff out there for you. But what I want to do is, before we can go in here, I just want to learn about you. I want to know your story. So walk me through how you go where you were at to now being able to sit down against any Muslim, pretty much, and have a strong debate with them. How did that happen?

• 6:07Speaker 02

  By the way, this debate, I had just stopped bodybuilding. Just to give you a little background, I come from a family of bodybuilders. So, in the 90s, I used to train. So when I see some of your handsome, muscular staff, you know, I start getting envious. You know, envy is a sin. But yeah, I was just looking at myself. Even though I stopped bodybuilding, I didn't stop eating as if I was a bodybuilder. But to give you a little background...

• 6:33Speaker 02

  I was born in Kuwait, 1972, came to Chicago in 1974. So, pretty much, I've been raised in America. A Chicagoan, don't know much about the Middle East. Though our parents are Christian, if you're from an Assyrian background, they'll either be typically part of the Assyrian Church of the East, or in the case, if you come from Iran specifically, they'll either be Presbyterian, because we had a lot of missionaries that came to the Middle East and converted the Assyrians to, let's say, Presbyterianism. But historically, the Church of the Assyrians is, in the West, called the Nestorian Church. Now, why do they call us Nestorians? It's not a compliment, and I don't want to bog you down with the details,

• 7:17Speaker 02

  but there was a bishop in the 5th century named Bishop Nestorius, who was accused of teaching that there are two persons in Christ, that he's a divine person, human person, and that's blasphemy. And so, the Assyrians have been labeled Nestorian, but it's not a compliment. It's meant to ostracize the Assyrian Church. Because the Bible teaches, and the Church teaches, Christ is one person. He's an eternal, uncreated, divine person, who became flesh from the Holy Virgin. So, to say he's two persons is blasphemy. So, they were accused of holding to the two-person theory of Christ, which is not true. So, that's my background. And I don't know if you come from that background. Typically, if you're from that background, you'll be baptized as an infant.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  But even Presbyterians baptize infants, but for a different reason. So, not to bog you with the details, in the Assyrian Church, water baptism is the means by which the Spirit comes on you, makes you one with Christ, so that you're already part of Christ's body. So, He regenerates you, He makes you alive, unites you to Christ. Presbyterians believe that water baptism is the sign that makes you a member of the covenant community, the new covenant of Jesus Christ, but it doesn't regenerate you, it doesn't make you one with Christ. That's something you must do later on. So, there are some differences. So, I was baptized Assyrian Church of the East, but my parents never told me about Christianity. I didn't learn about Christianity from my parents. Never told me who Jesus was.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  What the Bible is, I remember going to church.

• 8:47Patrick Bet-David?

  You didn't go to church?

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Well, they would take me to church, but I didn't know what we're doing. Like, once a week, maybe once every couple of weeks, you know, Christmas. I had no idea, none whatsoever. But my introduction to Christianity came from a nine-year-old Assyrian boy named Raymond Malco from Lebanon. He preached to me the gospel of Jesus Christ.

• 9:07Patrick Bet-David?

  In Chicago?

• 9:07Speaker 02

  Yep, at nine. He was nine years old.

• 9:09Patrick Bet-David?

  At the age of nine, how old were you?

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Six and a half.

• 9:11Patrick Bet-David?

  He's nine years, six and a half?

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Yes. His grandmother was a godly, saintly woman. She was from a Catholic background. But his uncles, on his mother's side, they were taught Baptist theology. So if you're familiar with what they call the Independent Fundamental... See, I'm giving you too many, like, denominations, but it is what it is. There are a lot of denominations. And the Independent Fundamental Baptist denomination believe that you have to go soul-winning, win souls for Christ. So you gotta go knock on doors and lead them into the sinner's prayer. So his uncles taught him that theology. So he would go soul-winning. So he found this soul. And for the first couple of weeks, I just ignored him. I thought he was crazy. But then one day, he got my attention because he said, "Jesus Christ."

• 9:58Speaker 02

  And I'm giving you the gist. Remember, I'm the six and a half, I'm 53, you know? And it's kinda sad, you guys are younger than me. That scare me. I better look in and healthier. Lord, I pray for that glorified body sooner than later. So he told me, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God." See, if I talk about the story, you know, I get a little emotional, so... And he told me that he loved me so much, he died for me. That rocked me, at six and a half. To know someone would love me that much to die for me. So he taught me the sinner's prayer. The sinner's prayer is, you know, you say, "Lord Jesus, I'm a sinner, come into my heart." Now, being a kid, I thought I had to recite that prayer word for word, because we take

• 10:42Speaker 02

  everything literally, right? And he told me to do it at night, so I took him literally. I had to wait till night. So I was afraid I was gonna forget the prayer, and I kept reciting it. And night came, and I forgot it. But I remember that night, and I remember that I was in tears. My mom was next to me, and I told her, I remember waking her up, saying, "Can you tell me how to invite Jesus?" She thought I was crazy. "What are you talking about?" But I remember crying out to him, you know, and I said, "Jesus, I don't know how to invite you in."

• 11:14Speaker 02

  But I want you in my life. So, six and a half. He would do street evangelism. There are people from the neighborhood, uh, Chicago, Foster and Clark Street. There are people who are listening who are gonna remember this. He actually would lead me and he would preach and we'd gather crowds. A nine-year-old, cuz it's shocking. I mean, a nine-year-old and he'd preach fire and brimstone and hell. And I was just a sidekick. I didn't know anything. Now, you fast forward, he had to relocate and I lost my elder brother cuz he was the one who held me accountable. Sadly, my teenage years, things happened, broken family. Dad left. I was very close to my uncle and he died of cancer in about, I believe it was 1982.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  So, he was closer to me than my father. So, I just gave up on everything and I started doing things I shouldn't have done. You know, teenage, you go into drinking and, you know, things that we're not proud of. But I had a huge emptiness in my heart because I've always suffered with two things in my life. And these are symptoms of pride, if you actually break it down, symptoms of pride. But nonetheless, I suffered from low self-esteem and body dysmorphia, which is still two demons that I have to slay till the, till this day. And because I had this low self-esteem and really, really just body shamed myself, I felt more depressed, so I thought the solution would be bodybuilding. Why?

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Because my older brother started bodybuilding and if you know about bodybuilding, you probably have heard of Sergio Olivia.

• 12:47Patrick Bet-David?

  Of course.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  He was a Chicago cop. But he also had a gym.

• 12:51Patrick Bet-David?

  He's got a son as well right now. That competes, incredible physique, yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Oh, really? His son makes his father.

• 12:56Patrick Bet-David?

  He was known for one of the greatest poses of all time. If you go to images Sergio Olivia, his forearms, he does this pose, the one, the fourth picture, that one right there.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Jeez.

• 13:06Patrick Bet-David?

  Look at that.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  You should see his son. It makes his father look like nothing.

• 13:09Patrick Bet-David?

  Can you pull up his son's picture as well? His son is, Vinny, you won't even believe it.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Look at his son. That's his, look at that, that's the son to the right, oh my goodness. Oh my, damn.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  So Chicago. So I said, maybe, you know what, let me try bodybuilding. Now, another thing is, one of the biggest influences on my life wasn't a religious figure, was Bruce Lee. I still love Bruce Lee. I just can't get over this guy. And when I hear people saying, oh, he was an actor, it gets me angry. What are you talking about, man? In a street fight, oh, God, your eyes are, you know. The myth of Bruce Lee. So I thought, in my very sick mind, maybe I can get into kickboxing and bodybuilding and become the first Assyrian movie star. Hey, if Bruce Lee did it, Arnold Schwarzenegger did it, why not me? Well, I realized the more I worked out, the more miserable I became.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  So there was a time in which I peaked, I was like around 200, and I'm not trying to talk about, you know, I don't want people to think I'm, just to give you an idea, what God is doing. He's allowing me to attain goals to see how empty I'll be. So at one time, I got to about 220 pounds of solid muscle, no fat on me, and I was miserable. I was depressed, and I realized, you know what, maybe I should try God. Now, this is around, maybe like, I'm close to 18. I don't even know the year, because I was born in 72, and I try to remember the exact year, but it's in the 90s. As I'm thinking about God, I used to be the, if you ever valet your car, you have valet parking, well, in Chicago, there was a restaurant called Bob City.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  It was in a very shadier side of Chicago, Cabrini Green, so they had a parking lot, and that was the security guy, security dude, right? And the, they call him, the term I'm looking for, the guy who gives you the ticket, I forgot the name for it, his name was Hal, and he kept saying, praise be to Almighty Allah. Now, remember, although my family's from the Middle East, they never mentioned Islam once to me. So I have no idea what Islam is or who Muslims are. So he keeps saying Almighty Allah, now, you know, we speak Assyrian, we say Allah.

• 15:16Speaker 07

  Allah.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Or Allah. So he got me interested. So I said, can I ask you a question? How do you know this term? So he started talking about Minister Louis Farrakhan.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  I have no idea what this guy's talking about. Then he says, "The honorable Elijah Muhammad." "The Prophet Muhammad." And then he mentions Master Farad Muhammad. Now, I'm thinking it's the same Muhammad. Turns out, he's a member of the Nation of Islam. Nation of Islam, who's... Now, the leader's still alive. Louis Farrakhan hasn't passed away. There he goes. "One of the most powerful charismatic speakers." This man will captivate you. And he does it from memory. He doesn't have notes in front of him. He'll quote the Bible Quran from memory. This man is amazing in his recall and his speech. So captivating. And he mentioned the Quran. So I asked, "Could you give me a copy?" Well, I read the Quran and I was flabbergasted.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Because here's a book that mentions the major prophets of the Bible and Jesus, but it gives a different spin on it. So I got really confused. So in the back of the book, you have like, you know, table of contents... Not table, I'm sorry, index of names. So I went and looked for Jesus in every place that Jesus showed up in the Quran. And I believe the translation was Abdullah Yusuf Ali. At that time, it was the most popular Quran translation. Now, it's obsolete. But in the 90s, this was the translation that Muslims would give out. And he's got copious notes, right, to indoctrinate you. Man, I ate it up. I was shocked to find Jesus in the Quran. And this is one thing that non-Muslims, when they encounter Islam, the shock effect.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Because they think Muslims are the other side. They're all evil, they're terrorists. And then they find out that they have more in common with Christianity than even Judaism does. This is a fact. Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism, because Islam recognizes Jesus. It says he's the Messiah, born of the virgin. In fact, the Quran says that the greatest woman Allah created is Mary. And she's the only woman mentioned by name in the entire Quran. Women aren't mentioned. So if we're looking at...

• 17:18Patrick Bet-David?

  Not even his mom, not even the prophet's mom.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  No, Muhammad's parents, you don't even know whose parents are. You don't even know his historical context. If you just go to the Quran, it doesn't even situate the Quran for you. You don't know, is what century is this? All you know, it's in Arabic. But when one wasn't sent down, you need external sources. Even when Muhammad was born, you need external sources. Because Muhammad is mentioned by name four times. But even then, you can make a case that it's not really the name of a prophet, but it's a descriptive noun, meaning the praised one. And some people actually postulate... That what you have in the Quran is actually Christian hymns that were then bastardized into Arabic, originally in Syriac. A lot of theories. Some of the theories are strong. So again, as I read the Quran,

• 18:00Speaker 02

  I got baffled. But here's where training your children in the way to go pays dividends. Because of that young boy teaching me the Christian faith, planting seeds in my heart, my reaction was to go back to the New Testament. I go, wait, let me read the New Testament. And I remember reading it, man, I fell in love with Jesus all over again. In fact, I missed him. You know, I missed him. I'm not supposed to cry. I'm Jidhu. You know that, right? The warrior sholli al-salih. Jesus makes even the toughest of men cry like babies because he's infinitely beautiful and we are infinitely less than filthy. But as I read the New Testament, I fell in love with him all over again.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  There's no one like Jesus. Even those who do not believe in religion, when they read, for example, the Sermon of the Mount, they're in awe of his message. They even realize this is not human. This is heavenly. The way he teaches about to treat your enemies and this is something out of this world, and it is. It's not from this world. It's from a higher realm, heaven. I fell in love with him, but then I had a problem. What do I do with Muhammad? Because I was convinced Muhammad was a true prophet because he was sincere. They gave me a biography because then I, yeah, I forgot to add the details. Then I discovered Malcolm X. I forgot to mention that because Malcolm X is a big figure in the Nation of Islam. Firaqan, yes. He was the one who pretty much made the Nation of Islam, but then he realized that Elijah Muhammad,

• 19:28Speaker 02

  who was the man who claimed that Master Farad Muhammad sent him. So there was a man named Master Farad Muhammad, and he went to Elijah, whose name was Elijah Poole in Michigan. And he said, pretty much, "I'm going to appoint you as a prophet to liberate my people." And this theology teaches that Allah is a black man. So it's not Islamic. You go to predominant Muslim country that practices. You tell them Allah is a black man. Your body is going to be over here and your head will be over there on a trophy. So this is a... but I didn't know. So I started reading Malcolm X and then Alex Haley is autobiography by Alex Haley. I didn't understand a lot of the code terms because he kept saying them, T-H-E-M, in the book. Then I realized it was an abbreviation for the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  But his story captivated me because supposedly on a trip to Mecca, he discovered true Islam. And I thought, man, if Islam could do for this guy, or if Islam could do for me what it did for this guy, maybe Islam is a solution. But that's when I went back to the New Testament, the Lord saved me. But I had read a sanitized biography on Muhammad that made him look very, very devout, sincere. And so I didn't know what to do with him. Because if he's sincere and he's willing to suffer for his claims, then obviously he's not lying. But what he says about Jesus contradicts what the New Testament says. How do I reconcile that? It took me maybe two years to finally, and I know it's not a politically correct message,

• 20:58Speaker 02

  but it is what it is. That's why Islam is not Christianity, Christianity is not Islam. We're not the same, we have differences. So Islam thinks that Christianity has been perverted, corrupted. The New Testament's been changed. We believe that there are many Antichrists who will come into the world. You know, I know Muslims will get offended, but it is what it is. Jesus in John 14:6 explicitly says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me." He didn't say, "I'm one of many ways. I point you to the life and I can bring you to the Father among many." He goes, "No, I am the truth, the life." Now even from an Islamic perspective, no prophet can say he's the truth, the life. Because Islam recognizes those titles as belonging only to the God of Islam, which they believe is the God of Abraham.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  So for Jesus to say he's the truth, he just claimed to be more than a man from an Islamic perspective. To say you're the life, you just claimed to be more than a man. And he says, "You want to get to the Father? You want to be with me? You want to dwell with me? You better come to me and accept me as I am." But the Jesus of the New Testament, who's the Christ of history, is not a Muslim prophet. His name is not Isa Ibn al-Miriam. He did not announce the coming of Ahmed, because the Quran says in chapter 61 verse 6, that the good news of Jesus is that he announced the coming of a messenger after him named Ahmed. That's in 61 verse 6 of the Quran, you guys can see it. So if you ask the Muslim, "What is the gospel of Christ?" "Oh, he predicted the coming of Muhammad." That's 61 verse 6, if you want to see it.

• 22:25Patrick Bet-David?

  Rob, can you pull it up 61 verse 6 in the Quran?

• 22:29Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 22:59Speaker 08

  Imagine building an app with your name on it. With Base44, describe what you want and watch it take shape. You can plan, customize, and expand in any direction. From passion projects to enterprise-grade systems, everything is built-in and ready to launch. No matter what you're building, any builder needs Base44. Go to base44.com.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  There you go. And remember when Jesus, Sana Mary, said, "Oh, children of Allah, I'm truly Allah's messenger to you, confirming the Torah which came before me, and giving good news of a messenger after me whose name will be Ahmed." That's the good news of Islam. He prepared you for Muhammad. Because Ahmed is nothing for Muhammad, right? That's what they tell you. So that's their good news. That's not the Jesus of history. The Jesus of history claims to be the very God in such a way that even the Quran acknowledges, "No man can claim the titles he claimed." When I said that one of the names of Allah is the truth, al-haq. And he is the life. And he's also the first and the last. Well, if you go to chapter 22 for 6 to 7, there you're gonna see the names of Allah,

• 24:19Speaker 02

  pretty much plagiarized from what Jesus said prior to the Quran. You'd think, if I didn't tell you this is Allah speaking, you'd think that you're reading the Gospel of John, because what is said about God here, the Allah of Islam, is exactly parroted from what Jesus says in the Gospel of John, which comes 600 years earlier. Here, you'll see it. So, chapter 22, verse 6 to 7 says, "That is because Allah is the truth." Al-Hak, that's one of the names of Allah. "And because he gives life to the dead, and because he is over all things competent." Now, here's an interesting part in verse 7. "And that the hour is coming, no doubt about it, that Allah will resurrect those in the grave." See, only Allah gives life and resurrects the dead, and he's the truth. Well, if I go to the Gospel of John, chapter 5,

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Jesus said all those things, but he applied it to himself. If you open up John, chapter 5, you're gonna have to open up the entire chapter, because we're gonna look at verse 21. So now watch here. Now, watch Jesus say what the Quran says of Allah, but he says it 600 years before Muhammad showed up. So, who's plagiarizing whom? It's not Jesus plagiarizing Allah. Now, watch here. If you go to John 5, I'll open it up. Verse 21? Yeah, we're gonna open up the entire chapter, if you can. If you go to BibleGateway.com, you're gonna find bibles galore. You mean, I'm moving faster than the great Rob? What happened, Rob, brother? See, you can't keep up with the Assyrians? Especially if he's Jid, you know? Now, if you open up John 5, just put John 5, it's gonna open up.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Now, remember what Allah, it said about Allah, he's the truth, he gives life? Yes. And then the hour is coming? Mm-hmm. Where he will raise the dead? Allah, watch here. John 5:21, watch here, let's go here. 21, now watch. Right in the middle. "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it." So, Father and Son both give life. But in 25, if you watch verse 25, "Verily, truly I tell you..." Now, this translation, NIV, says a time. The literal translation is, "An hour is coming." If you read it, it's an hour, because NIV is more of a paraphrase. So some Bibles do not translate literally, because in translating literally, you lose meaning. So they have to paraphrase.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  So this is a paraphrase. In fact, we Assyrians can relate. If I say, "Atma brishuch." If you translate in English, I'm gonna say, "What the hell are you talking about?"

• 26:41Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Right?

• 26:42Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  That's how it is with languages. So sometimes you can't translate literally. You gotta translate meaning. But literally, it says, "Very truly, I tell you, an hour is coming, and has now come, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God," not Allah. "The Son of God, and those who hear will live." Now, 28:29 says something amazing, because the Quran says, "The hour is coming, have no doubt about it. Well, Allah will raise them from their graves." But who does that, according to our Bible? "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming, when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out." Whose voice? The Son of God. So if I were to compare what Jesus says of Himself with what is said about Allah, clearly, Jesus claimed to be God, because the things Jesus says is ascribed to the Islamic deity,

• 27:28Speaker 02

  not to a prophet. So a prophet cannot speak this way, if Islam is true. So what do they tell you? "Your Bible's corrupt." Another passage, you brought it up, John 14:6, right? We read that, I'm sorry. Notice there, he says, "I am the way and the truth, on the names of Allah, and the life." So clearly, the Jesus of history is not Asa. He did not announce coming Muhammad. So from a Christian perspective, as offensive as it may be, facts are facts. If we all believed the same thing, we'd be the same religion. According to the New Testament, it's gonna hurt people. Muhammad is an Antichrist. That's the New Testament teaching. Because what is the criteria for an Antichrist? 1 John, Chapter 2, 22 to 23, tells you. Who's the Antichrist? He who denies the Father and the Son.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Islam says Allah is not a father and Jesus is definitely not his son. In fact, in chapter 9 of the Quran, verse 30, you know what it says? And the Jews say, "Uzzair is the son of Allah." To this day, scholars are baffled. Who is this Uzzair? And what Jews said it? Now, some translations will tell you that Uzzair is Ezra, the prophet, but the context is the call to jihad. A lot of people don't know that one of the last chapters before Muhammad died. Now, again, we're basing this on the Muslim sources. There are people who question the Muslim sources. They say, "Well, yeah, because..."

• 28:48Patrick Bet-David?

  Muslims.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  They're... Not in... Not in Muslim countries, they can't. But you'll have Muslim academics who'll tell you, "Yeah, these are later traditions, they're embellished." And not all Muslims believe in what they call the Hadith. Now, the largest group of Muslims identify Sunni. In fact, you had two of them debating when they were here. They would be Sunni Muslims. One of them was a Salafi. So although they are Sunni...

• 29:11Patrick Bet-David?

  Daniel or...

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Jake, uh... What was his name?

• 29:15Patrick Bet-David?

  Daniel Higra...

• 29:16Speaker 02

  The other guy, Jake.

• 29:16Patrick Bet-David?

  Haggadju.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Daniel Hakika-Chu and Jake Brancatella.

• 29:20Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Jake, I don't know if it's short for Jacob. Now, he's a Salafi. There are differences among them. And though they belong... And again, I'm not saying these differences prove Islam is false because we got differences among Christians. Right? I mean, but fair is fair. Islam is not monolithic, neither is Christianity. Right? There are flavors of Christianity. But point being, the largest group of Muslims would identify as Sunni. But in that Sunni branch, you have people called Salafis. They have a view of Allah that the other Sunnis do not share. We can get into that, but... So... Not all Muslims believe in the Hadith. Though it's the largest sect, they would follow what they call the Hadith or the Sunnah. You have Shia. They have their own traditions. They don't accept... In fact, if you come from Iran, it's a Shia majority, right? The Ayatollah, yeah.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  So they would not accept the traditions of Daniel Hakika-Chu. So when they quote Bukhari, they reject it. They go, "We don't follow Bukhari." We have, you know, Kaffi, Qulaini. They have their own traditions. And then there are a group of Muslims who only follow the Quran. They're called Quran-only Muslims. So, just like Christianity, you have a variety. So if I'm dealing with a Muslim, I first ask them, "What are you?" So I can know how to address them. I can't address them the same. Because, you know, you debate Muslims, "Well, I don't accept the Hadith." "I don't care what Bukhari says." "I don't care what Muslim says." So I have to now stick with the Quran and show them why there are holes in the narrative. The point I'm getting at is that in Islamic theology, specifically Sunni, there are certain attributes, names of Allah, that no creature can ascribe to themselves. Some of the names I just showed you, but Jesus ascribed to Himself.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  So now we got a problem. In chapter 9 of the Quran, according to the Sunni tradition, this is one of the last chapters Muhammad gave before he died. These are his final marching orders. And in his final marching orders, if you want to look at it, chapter 9, it starts at 28, all the way to 33. This is again, according to the Sunni narrative. Now, if you accept the Sunni narrative, then this is one of the last verse. But if you are one of those Muslims who say, "No, these are just later embellishments", well, then you have a hard time because you can't situate the Quran. How do you know when the Quran was written? It doesn't tell you. It doesn't even give you a chronology. For example, if you go to Sunni tradition, there are two periods in the compilation of the Quran. There's what's called the Meccan period and the Medinan period. Mecci, Medini.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Again, based on the Islamic narrative, for the first 13 years Muhammad preached in Mecca, the tone of those chapters that are attributed to that period, very different. To you, to you, be your religion, to me, my religion. Because He's outnumbered. He doesn't have control. And if He does try to make an attack, they'll squash Him. So when you read those chapters from that period, if we take the traditional Sunni narrative, very tolerant. But let's get along, you know? Okay, hey, you don't believe my religion, that's fine. You know, to you, your religion, to me, my religion. That's like chapter 109 of the Quran, says it, you know? To you, your religion, to me, my religion. That's what they'll often quote. But they quote in the context when they're outnumbered. Then you have what's called the Medinan period.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  The period where He now goes to Medina, and He becomes head of state. The tone changes. It goes from, "To you, your religion, to me, my religion", then you enter Medina, "Okay, now, since they oppressed you, you can fight back", self-defense.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  Then the final stage is chapter nine. Now he's amassed a large number of soldiers, according to the narrative, right? One of the greatest scholars, in my opinion, questioning the narrative, you had him, he debated, Robert Spencer. If you want what I consider to be one of the most knowledgeable Christians on the historical Muhammad, as well as political Islam, you won't get any better than Robert Spencer. So if you ever want to talk, oh, he's amazing, right?

• 33:03Patrick Bet-David?

  Interesting, because he's got, he's got, he gets a lot of hate and he's got a lot of controversy behind him. When I announced that I'm bringing him, they were furious about bringing Robert Spencer.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  My estimation, you know how people say, this guy's the best, and that's an ego thing, may God crush our pride, but my estimation, I don't think there's someone more knowledgeable in political Islam and historical Muhammad than Robert Spencer from a Christian perspective.

• 33:29Patrick Bet-David?

  Interesting.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  He would be part of your, if you ever get an A-team, he'd be part of it. Now, I mention him only because he would question these sources, but if you're a Sunni, because now, my audience is now the Sunni Muslim, like whoever it is, if it's Daniel. According to the tradition, chapter nine, one of the final marching orders, he's amassed a large number of soldiers, now he's telling them, go and expand Islam. It's no longer defend yourself, it's now go and expand Islam politically, economically, socially. That's the concept of chapter nine, 28 to 33, but now notice, Muhammad has to give them a pretext to attack. Okay, why are we attacking these people? You're gonna see, it doesn't say because they threatened you, this is the Islamic narrative, it's because they believe differently from you. Right there, black and white, you're gonna see it, so they don't think I'm lying, and

• 34:15Speaker 02

  if they want to get the commentators, Ibn Khatir, we're gonna have a field day, brother. They can't tell me it doesn't mean this, say, wait, wait, what did Ibn Khatir or Qurtubi say? Right, but here, chapter nine, 28 to 33, we're gonna read it, oh, you will believe. Now, this translation says polytheist, but the term mushrikun, mushrikin, it's much more broad than simply a polytheist. The term comes from shirk. What is shirk? According to the Quran, shirk is the one sin Allah will never forgive. But what is that? When you claim there are multiple divinities, or Allah shares His glory, or attributes, or sovereignty with a creature, or God as a son, you fall under that category. So according to Islam, all of you are shirkers. You're a mushrik. Whether you're like or not, why?

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Because if they ask you, "Do you believe Jesus is God's son?" Mushrik. "You believe Jesus is God's son?" Mushrik. "You believe he's Lord?" Mushrik. Now, the Quran says, "To fight you." "And to the victor goes the spoils." Or, you pay what's called jizya. We're gonna get there. So, "All you believe, or have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram." Now, without the traditions, you have no idea where this is. It's a tradition that tells you this is the Kaaba in Mecca. But if you just went with this, you'll have no idea where this is. What the heck is Masjid Al Haram? But this, this means Mecca. The Kaaba. "Don't let them approach."

• 35:45Speaker 02

  After this, their final year. What year, see? Without the Islamic narrative, you don't even know what year this is. This is two years before the death of Muhammad. Right? But I can't tell. I mean, what year, buddy? Doesn't tell me. And if you fear poverty... Now, why is it saying fear poverty? Islamic narrative says that they would make pilgrimages, to this day, the Muslims do it, to circumambulate the Kaaba seven times, run between the two hills Safan Marwa seven times, throw seven stones at Satan, which they claim was instituted by Abraham, but there's no evidence for that. These were pagan practices. So when the people would come, they'd barter. They would sell, they would trade. So it's saying, "Well, if you fear by banishing them, if you fear by banishing them, you're gonna lose money? Don't worry."

• 36:29Speaker 02

  "Allah will enrich you from his bounty, if he wills." And, well, it's "if he wills." We say "Insha Allah," but here it's, you know, "if he wills." Now, how will he enrich you? This is the question I want you to see. "By having you fight the infidels and taking jizya from them." That's verse 29. It says it right there. "Fight those who do not believe in Allah." Does it say, "Fight those who threaten you?" "Fight those who attacked you?" "Fight those who want to take your land?" No, no. "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, or in the last day." Well, I don't believe in the Allah of Islam. Now, I know people say, "Well, it's just a name." That's not my debate. I have no problem using the term Allah. The Allah of the Quran is not the God of the Bible.

• 37:09Speaker 09

  So different gods?

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 37:11Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  But now you have to qualify that. Do you think the average Muslim even knows the differences?

• 37:16Speaker 09

  Probably not.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Absolutely not, they don't. They're told that this God is the God of Abraham. They're told Jesus is a mighty messenger. So you have to distinguish between what the sources say and the person. Because if I interview an average Christian, how many of them know what the Trinity is?

• 37:31Speaker 02

  How many know that Jesus is the God man? That you must believe he's God a man? If I ask Christians, is Jesus a man in heaven or a spirit? I've done that, they'll say he's a spirit. No, he's not. The Bible says he's a glorified man in heaven with a glorified physical body of flesh. And he's gonna come back in the flesh. So how many Christians know that they're supposed to believe that? You'd be surprised. Ask Christians, say, hey.

• 37:50Speaker 09

  I understand.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Yep. So here, if you don't have the same idea of Allah they do, that's pretext to fight you.

• 37:57Speaker 09

  And Sam, not to go y'all, when you say fight, is that fight to kill?

• 38:00Speaker 02

  No, it's UFC.

• 38:02Speaker 09

  Okay. I wanna, I wanna make that clear, that you're saying fight, fight should be, they're trying to kill you.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  UFC championship belt, what's wrong with you?

• 38:10Speaker 09

  Okay, my bad.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  See, that's a serion in you, bro.

• 38:12Speaker 09

  Yeah, okay. Yeah, please continue.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  So, and the last day now, real quickly, let me describe Islamic last day. Cause I wanna show the audience who don't know Islam, how graphic this is. The last day in Islam means if you pass the test, you will enter Jannah, you'll enter paradise. You have maidens of pleasure, Hora al-ain. I can give you even a reference, very graphic, chapter 78, 31, 33. It says that they have swelling breasts, breasts that don't sag. And the Quran says you'll spend all eternity deflowering them. But you won't harm them and they'll return. And when I say Quran, Quran says you will have sex with them, but the Hadiths go graphic. You will be deflowering them, but you won't hurt them, they'll return virgin again. So this is the pleasures of paradise.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  And you're gonna have wine, and you're gonna have milk, and you're gonna have, you know, meat and young boy serving you. Youth's of perpetual freshness. Now, why the hell do I need a young boy in paradise to serve me? Well, things to make you go hmm. But that's the last day. Oh, you brought it up, huh? See, full-breasted.

• 39:14Speaker 09

  Companions of equal age.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that means you don't need breast implants in paradise. It's free of charge, yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 09

  Perfect. It's impressive.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  You see why they, they love us, don't you? When we come here, we're in, go back to 30, up to 30? So now, why should you fight them? I'm sorry, 29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or on the last day, who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful. So if you don't accept Muhammad's restrictions, like, don't eat pig meat, grounds to fight you. Am I making it up? It's right there. Why do you fight them? Who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful? So what you do not forbid and Muhammad has forbidden, you are now an enemy and need to be brought into submission, and who do not adopt the religion of truth. Now guess what that religion is? Buddhism? It's Islam.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  So if you do not accept Islam, what must they do? Fight you? Even those who are given the scripture, meaning even if they're Jews and Christians. Many people may not know this, but those who are in the field will know. One of the titles given to Jews and Christians is Ahlul Kitab. The People of the Book. Why? Because the Quran assumes the same God that gave the Quran, gave the scriptures to the Jews and Christians. Because it says he's the God of Abraham, right? And it says this is the religion of Abraham. So even if you're a Jew or Christian, but you deny Muhammad or Allah said to the Muslims, "Fight them until they pay Jizya." Why? Willingly, while they are humbled, as a sign of your humiliation. That's how Allah will enrich you. Thank the Lord. There's really no Islamic state that enforces this.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Praise the Lord Jesus Christ, right? I mean, if you ask me, is there an Islamic state? No, there isn't. Are some countries more Islamic than others? Yes. But there is no truly Islamic state, right? That implements what the Quran and the Sharia puts. But you understand, this is how Islam expanded. Go find people where they're at, invite them to Islam, and if they accept, they're safe. If not, take the Jizya from them, and if not, kill them, and to the victor goes the spoils. Another thing that's related to Christ. Why then should you fight Jews and Christians? Verse 30. The Jews say Ezra is the Son of Allah. But it's not Ezra, it's Uzair. They tell you it's Ezra. But with that said, there's not any shred of historical evidence that the Jews ever worshipped Ezra as the unique Son of God.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Doesn't exist. So where does this come from? Well, the Muslims say, well, there was a particular group at a particular time. But those are the Muslim sources. If you ask them, can you give me any? Pre-Islamic or sources besides Islam that there were Jews who worship Ezra or whoever, no, they can't find it. But now, watch, the Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah. Now, there they got us. If I ask you guys, do you believe Messiah is the son of Allah? Do you believe Jesus is the son of God? Yes. It says, "For that reason, they must fight you." It's right there. The son of Mary. And they were not committing, I'm sorry, you skipped to 31. That is what they say with their mouths. See, that's something you just say for, you made it up.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  "Imitating the sayings of those who disbelieved before. May Allah destroy them." How do you think Allah is going to destroy you? He's going to come down on a horse? Who do you think he's going to use to destroy you? The jihadis. Am I making ups right there? Nope. This is the context of jihad.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  This is what Islam, this is Muhammad's final marching orders. Whether you like it or not, if they become predominant majority and if they're zealous, now, thank God, most Muslims are not, they have to do this.

• 42:50Patrick Bet-David?

  Sam, how many times have you read the Quran?

• 42:52Speaker 02

  I don't know, really. Maybe once or twice, I don't know.

• 42:56Patrick Bet-David?

  No, stop it.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  No, I'm sorry, I don't.

• 42:59Patrick Bet-David?

  Literally, you've read it maybe once or twice?

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:01Patrick Bet-David?

  And how do you remember everything?

• 43:03Speaker 02

  As I was trying, said, I think we said off there, in the 90s, I realized, honestly, when I would have a conversation, verses would pop in my head. So, it's not I trained for it, and I don't want people to be impressed by it, right? No. Knowledge puffs up, love builds up. I got a lot of issues that I pray God will show me mercy on the day of judgment. But I just realized, maybe it's God's way of gifting me.

• 43:24Patrick Bet-David?

  How many times have you read the Bible?

• 43:27Speaker 02

  If I go back, I've probably read it two or three times.

• 43:30Patrick Bet-David?

  Two or three times?

• 43:31Speaker 02

  I don't really read it all the way through. Like now, it's just like, you know, I'll go through it, you know, maybe read a Psalm here or there, or if I'm researching, yeah, it's, I guess, like when they drop, really, I was dropped as a child when I was one, in my head. So, maybe I triggered something, I don't know. Maybe that's how God does it, right?

• 43:47Patrick Bet-David?

  Are you, are you a massive, because when I sat down with Charlie Kirk, and we would talk to him, off-camera, he would say he studies three hours every day, no matter what he reads, and studies three hours every day. Do you have a ritual of studying a lot every day? Do you read a lot every day?

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Not that way. What I do is, I'm always on my blog, writing posts for people, if not doing live streams. So, I'm not studying, I'm writing to equip people with articles so they can use it in battle.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Because I want to quit people. So because, look, if the Lord terrors, I'm gonna die.

• 44:20Patrick Bet-David?

  So at six and a half, this nine-year-old comes to you. At that time, at that time, what's your relationship with your dad at six and a half?

• 44:28Speaker 02

  My dad walked, uh, walked away when I was probably seven, shortly right after that.

• 44:33Patrick Bet-David?

  So it's right around that time that this is happening to you? Got it. Okay, so that had a massive impact on you?

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Huge.

• 44:39Patrick Bet-David?

  Huge. So, so i- is that, is that a moment for you where your biological father walked out, but your, you know, spiritual father's gonna be with you forever? Did you, did that give you that peace as a young man?

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Raymond was-

• 44:51Patrick Bet-David?

  Young boy?

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, Raymond's pretty much my dad, even though he was nine. And his grandmother, my mother was a wonderful woman. She left a wonderful legacy, but she wasn't educated in scripture. So, but his grandmother was my spiritual mother.

• 45:03Patrick Bet-David?

  Raymond's, Raymond's grandmother?

• 45:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, because his mother died when he was young. So his maternal grandmother raised him and his brother.

• 45:10Patrick Bet-David?

  How much time did you spend with her?

• 45:12Speaker 02

  I think from six and a half to 10.

• 45:14Patrick Bet-David?

  How often, like every day?

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Every day we'd go. I'd hang out with him every day. We'd go to the house. She would teach us prayers.

• 45:19Patrick Bet-David?

  She would or he would?

• 45:20Speaker 02

  She would. She, in fact, because of her impact, I still remember. Now I know it's part of the liturgy of the Assyrian church, but I didn't know that back then. She would teach, she taught me this. And it's for some reason, those prayers. Qadi shah ala ha, qadi, she taught me that. She also taught me the Ave Maria, but in a different way from where, you know, like Buchelli says it. She taught it this way. Now, guys, I'm not a singer, and I'm not gonna give up my day job, but so. She taught it this way. Ave, ave, Ave Maria. So I remember that. For some reason, it stayed in my mind. Right? She was a wonderful woman.

• 45:57Patrick Bet-David?

  Six and a half years old. Was Raymond's grandmother friends with your mother?

• 46:01Speaker 02

  No.

• 46:02Patrick Bet-David?

  They didn't know each other?

• 46:03Speaker 02

  No. They were, they were in the neighborhood. So, you know, you know how you meet people high and by, you know, but-

• 46:08Patrick Bet-David?

  You're Chicago?

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wasn't like, you know, oh, we're cousins. No, it was just, he was taught to go solo winning. So when he won me? He took me to his grandmother and she teaches prayers.

• 46:18Patrick Bet-David?

  And what was the denomination?

• 46:20Speaker 02

  She was Catholic. His uncle on his mother's side became Baptist.

• 46:26Patrick Bet-David?

  So later on at 18 years old, when that's a security guard, the guy you're working with at the valet at this Bob's.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  City, yeah.

• 46:33Patrick Bet-David?

  Bob's City, yeah. When you worked there and he introduced you to the Nation of Islam and, you know, Farrakhan and all these guys. At that time, would you say pre-meeting him, you'd consider yourself a Christian or you're a lost teenager kind of going through?

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had pretty much turned my back on Christianity.

• 46:51Patrick Bet-David?

  When you left at 10 years old, 1982?

• 46:53Speaker 02

  I was about 13. 13. When he hit 10, he relooked, but I think he was 10, he moved. Then I started slipping, but around 13, I was just a.

• 47:00Patrick Bet-David?

  Gone. So 13 to 18, there's nothing?

• 47:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 47:03Patrick Bet-David?

  No church, no mentor, no father figure, no nothing?

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:06Patrick Bet-David?

  Did you go to college? Are you a good student in school? What are you doing in school?

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Uh, I was such a good student, I got that honor of high school. Third year. Yeah.

• 47:15Patrick Bet-David?

  In high school? And this is Chicago?

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Yep. Then I got a GD. And never been to college, never been to San Mary, never been to university.

• 47:22Patrick Bet-David?

  What was your, you know, what class came easy to you? Are you a math guy? Are you an English guy? Are you a history guy? Or you?

• 47:29Speaker 02

  I liked history, but not in school. I just hated being in school because of my body dysmorphia and low self-esteem. I couldn't be around crowds.

• 47:36Patrick Bet-David?

  Were you in gangs? Were you a troublemaker? Were you?

• 47:38Speaker 02

  I was with the gangs, but I wasn't the tough guy. I mean, yeah, I hung out with like the Assyrian kings.

• 47:44Patrick Bet-David?

  In Chicago? Okay.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Assyrian kings, right, yeah.

• 47:47Patrick Bet-David?

  So 18 years old, you meet this guy. Did you ever convert and become a Muslim or no?

• 47:53Speaker 02

  In my heart, I believe Muhammad was a prophet, but it's not good enough because if you go with Sunni Islamic tradition, you have to take the Shahada in front of at least two witnesses. But the guy who was talking about Islam, he didn't take me to a mosque. He just was talking and then I started. My curiosity is such that when I get into something, I have to study it. So if I backtrack, like when I like Bruce Lee, I add up every book on Bruce Lee and I would devour hours into Bruce Lee. I had to know this guy inside it up. When it came to bodybuilding, I would devour every bodybuilding magazine and there was Arnold Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia, you know that? Something about me, when I'm into something, I eat it up and nothing else matters. It's like I'm just focused on this. The world can go to hell. I mean, God forbid, but you know, I'm not, I'm.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  And so whatever I focus on becomes the entire center of my life. Everything I do revolves around that. So during this time, I'm thinking, I'm really, I've deceived myself. I'm gonna make it to Hollywood. The Lord had a sense of you.

• 48:53Patrick Bet-David?

  At eighteen.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then when I was bodybuilding, my goal was that I'm going to get into Hollywood like these guys. Bruce Lee did martial arts. I'm gonna do it somehow. I'm gonna do it somehow.

• 49:03Patrick Bet-David?

  So you're watching Jean Claude Van Damme? Are you watching all these movies? Are you watching?

• 49:06Speaker 02

  I would watch them, but they never compared to Bruce. I would watch Bruce Lee.

• 49:09Patrick Bet-David?

  You know who's a big Bruce Lee guy? Dana White.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  He is?

• 49:12Patrick Bet-David?

  You go to his gym in his office, Bruce Lee quotes everywhere.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  He's alright.

• 49:16Patrick Bet-David?

  When you walk into his office, there's a Bruce Lee quote on the wall in his office. Like Dana's a Bruce Lee fanatic.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  So he does think he's a real, he's not a fake, huh?

• 49:26Patrick Bet-David?

  No, no, no, no. Based on the way I had, when I was with him, it was a lot of respect for him. His quotes are all over his gym, everywhere. Uh, uh, okay, so eighteen years old. Now, is he discipling you? Is this guy the same? Did he bring you anywhere? Did you meet somebody? Did someone, did you meet any of the big names?

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 49:44Patrick Bet-David?

  On the Nation of Islam? Nothing. It's all independent identity, eighteen years old.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  I just went searching, went to bookstores and...

• 49:49Patrick Bet-David?

  Eighteen years old, there's no internet. There is internet, but there's not the Google and all that stuff because you know, your age, where you're at. I don't remember using internet at that time either. It was more the AOL chat or whatever it was.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember there, yeah, the slow one.

• 50:01Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, that's right. Net Zero and all of that, yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:04Patrick Bet-David?

  So, okay, so at this time, you're going through it, and then you read the Quran, and you go through your phase. What are you doing occupation wise? What are you doing to make money?

• 50:12Speaker 02

  At that time, I was working security, and sometimes I'd work as a tow truck guy. Just by time to get into, I'm serious, I was really, I really thought, I was delusional. Alright, but how did I find, how did I research? I just go to bookstore. There was a Muslim bookstore. In Chicago, North Side, Devon. There was actually two. One of them is still there. If the people are watching, they'll know what I'm talking about. It's by Devon, California. It's called Iqra. But in the 90s, it was not at that same spot. So I'd go buy Muslim books and I'd go. Now, we still have Barnes and Nobles. But at that time, we also had Borders. You guys remember Borders?

• 50:48Patrick Bet-David?

  Of course.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. I love Borders more than Barnes and Nobles.

• 50:50Patrick Bet-David?

  Why is that?

• 50:51Speaker 02

  But I don't know, man. I just, I don't know. I just liked it. Maybe the colors, who knows? But I would go there and try to get books and then Muslim bookstores, obviously. But what really did it for me is I would buy VHS tape debates. We're living in a time of the VCR, VHS. You know, some people say, what is that? Right? I think it's like the way of the dodo bird. Betamax and, you know, we had VHS. So they would sell Muslim Christian debates. Now, all those debates are online on YouTube. But that time, we didn't have YouTube. So I bought them. And I'll tell you how I got into apologetics, because that was because of some Muslim guy who challenged me. But when I watched the debates,

• 51:34Speaker 02

  I'm designed in a weird way. I learn more from attacks on the faith than I learn from defending the faith. Because it forces me to think. So I was watching the Muslims slaughtering the Christians. And it got me to think, how do I answer this guy? So that put a fire in me to find answers. Now, I was never a disciple. I didn't have a pastor. I didn't have a priest. I didn't have... I had to just rely on God's Spirit to guide me to the right sources, find the right, let's say, authors or listen to the right Christians. But when it came to Christian Muslim debates, the Christians were getting slaughtered. I cannot tell you of any Christian that I think won a debate decisively in the 90s. There were some close, but for some reason, the Muslims were slaughtering the Christians.

• 52:16Patrick Bet-David?

  What was their angle? What angle did they take that Christians didn't have a way to defend themselves?

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Even when it came to Christian topics, the Christians were doing bad. Like, is the Bible God's word? You would have scholars, like, in fact, it's on YouTube. Like, the late Dr. Gleason Al Archer, who was Professor Emiradesev. Now it's closed. But in Deerville, Illinois, you had Trinity Evangelical Divinity Seminary. This man was a beast. Now, he's since been with, he's gone with the Lord. He would read and write 25 languages.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  He's amazing, but when it came to debate, he was getting slaughtered. And by neophyte Muslims who don't know biblical languages. And on topics you think it would be easy for him, he was just getting slaughtered. You'll find on YouTube, Gleeson Archer Muslim debates, disappointing, Trinity, getting slaughtered. Topics that we should win. It's one thing when you're debating a Muslim topic you're not familiar with and you know, you have the advantage, you're a Muslim. But when it comes to your own topics and you are, and he is brilliant, but he's not a debater. See, you'll see some of the debates right there. Gleeson Archer versus Jamal Barbe, the authenticity of the Quran. I mean, it was heartbreaking. Because I'm not a scholar, I'm just a, you know, teenager and these scholars, you know. Is there a response? So to tell you how I got into this, so see how God works.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  When I finally did embrace Christ and realized that Muhammad was deceived and Antichrist, 1 John 2, 22, 23.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  I had a friend who used to teach me out of box, because I used to teach him out of bodyboard. I don't want to mention his name, I don't know what happened to him since. And I don't want to get him in trouble, I don't know if he's still in the faith, but he was from a Bosnian background. His father was a boxing coach. And so he would teach me boxing, I would teach him how to lift weights. Because remember, I'm going to get into Hollywood, brother.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  As I started talking to him about Christianity, he started getting interested. Now, remember, he's Muslim background.

• 54:12Patrick Bet-David?

  Bosnian Muslim background, interesting.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  So, he started not going to the Jemaah prayers, Friday prayers, and his community college, right college. So the Muslims started noticing. So they asked him, "What's going on?" He goes, "Well, you know, I'm starting to get into Christianity." "Who's the guy who's been influencing you?" "Well, I'm a neophyte, I'm green, I don't know much about, I'm just learning." So, I met a couple of his friends. They brought in a big gun. I don't want to mention his name, I don't want to give him publicity, you know, it's from Chicago, he was a real estate guy. From South, is it South Asia? We'll leave it at that. He walked in the church that I was in, it was a Korean church. He had like a folder, you know, binder, I don't know what they call it, but, you know, we don't have it anymore. But he came in, he opened it up. You know, they have those rings?

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Paper?

• 55:01Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  It was ready, man, he had a combat kit, it's called the combat. Later on, I realized they call it the combat kit. In fact, it was made famous by another Muslim debater named Ahmad Diddat. Ahmadine Dada, who's since deceased in 2005, he became famous when he debated Jimmy Swaggart as the Bible God's word. And from the Muslim perspective, swagger got destroyed. That made him international. He's from South Africa. If you look at it from a logical perspective, he didn't win. But debates are not won on substance. It's won on rhetoric, personality, and flesh. And he's very charismatic. He's another guy, Jimmy Swaggart did, but he won. If you look at just the facts, Swaggart won.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  But the rhetoric and the confidence of Dada, he was a very huge fellow. Right? Just impressed and bedazzled the Muslims. He was the biggest Muslim debater at that time. The second biggest is Jamal Barrie, who debated Lisa and Archer. But coming back to this guy, you'll find it here, Ahmadine Dada, Jimmy Swaggart, see? These are some of the historic debates that are setting the ground for future apologists. Some of the debates.

• 56:54Speaker 09

  Hey guys, Vincent O'Shaughnessy here. I recently released a new shirt for my faith-based line, Faith Over Fear. There's a cross on the front and Hebrews Chapter 11, Verse 1 on the back. As Christians, we've never seen Jesus face to face, but we believe. That's what having true faith is, trusting when we can't see. And if you walk by faith, you have absolutely nothing to fear. Go to VTmerch.com, pick up a shirt. We have hoodies. We even have a female line. Rock the shirt, rock it with purpose, and let the world know who you stand with. Peace and love.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  So this guy had a combat kit, because if you put in Ahmadine Dada Combat Kit, he wrote books for Muslims to take? Right, there it goes, see, against Bible thumpers. This guy had his own combat kit.

• 57:34Patrick Bet-David?

  So funny.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, so what he did was, he had verses of Bible that contradict. If it's God's word, then what about these contradictions? Now, I'm green, I don't know nothing. I have no idea, brother, I'm just, I just came into faith, give me a break. No, he came. This is another reason people say, why are you so aggressive? You know, you're very, like, sometimes you can be very nasty and... Because I think what he did to me impacted me, because he was very nasty to me. And he bullied me. And there's something about me that triggers me. When I feel I'm bullied, right? That's it, yep, Ahmadineedat. Yeah, so...

• 58:10Patrick Bet-David?

  Would you feel you're bullied?

• 58:11Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I, I've been bullied, but sometimes I've been the bully, because to my shame, but when I get challenged, something kicks in. It's not like I want to be this way, and I go into like, I gotta take you out. Now, I'm not a fighter physically, so how do I do it? I do it verbally. Because the way he approached me, now, had he approached me maybe in a nice manner, things may have been different. He was nasty. Showed me no compassion, wanted to humiliate me. And he did.

• 58:37Patrick Bet-David?

  Is this recorded?

• 58:38Speaker 02

  No. He did, he humiliated me. I had no idea about the Bible, because he would give me verses, and then the Trinity. Well, how can Jesus be God? And I was destroyed. Disgraced, and I was discouraged.

• 58:51Patrick Bet-David?

  How old were you at the time?

• 58:53Speaker 02

  I was close to that, I think I was already in my twenties. It's in the nineties. And my buddy was there, I almost gave his name, I don't want to give his name. Lord help me not to mention that. I almost came out. He was there to witness it. But he didn't like, lose his faith in Christianity, so... I remember going at night, and I started praying, and this was my deal with God. I said, "God, if you give me answers to these questions, I swear to you, I will commit my life to never allowing another Christian to be humiliated ever again by a Muslim." And that set the, set an emotion.

• 59:27Patrick Bet-David?

  So when you made that prayer, what happens next? What is given to you?

• 59:31Speaker 02

  The Lord is just directing my steps. Here, read this, read that, study this. And so, you know how-

• 59:36Patrick Bet-David?

  Debate with Amadi Diddat. How many people are around while this is taking place?

• 59:40Speaker 02

  No, I didn't debate Diddat. I debated someone who was an admirer of him.

• 59:44Patrick Bet-David?

  So you debated the realtor that used the manual that he created to debate you?

• 59:48Speaker 02

  That was influenced by him. Now, he has his own, but he had his manual that was influenced by Diddat.

• 59:55Patrick Bet-David?

  Oh, I got it.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  So it's not, but he's the trendsetter. He's the one-

• 59:58Patrick Bet-David?

  I got it.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Right? He sells his own, but this guy had his folder with all his-

• 1:00:01Patrick Bet-David?

  Is this realtor guy still preaching? Or no, is he still out there doing this thing? Or no?

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  The last time I saw him, glory to God vindication, I'll just tell you. A little ego, because you know, we're sermons, we gotta win, right? Uh, when I came back a couple of years later, he ran between his tail between his legs and I felt vindicated. That was the last time. So I don't know if he's alive or dead.

• 1:00:18Patrick Bet-David?

  So that was in your twenties? That's a long time ago.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's in the nineties and he was already maybe in his forties. So I don't know.

• 1:00:24Patrick Bet-David?

  Got it.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  But the Lord gave me vindication.

• 1:00:26Patrick Bet-David?

  Once you asked the Lord, you prayed for that, what, what, who came into your life?

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  No one person. It was still the Spirit guiding me. That's why I was saying I would go to stores. And I've met few Christian authors and lecturers, but it's all on VHS. But it wasn't how they shaped me when it comes to defending Muslims. I learned a lot from two individuals in particular, but their approach was good, but it wasn't like devastating. The two names that really influenced me when it came to refuting Islam, and they're actually online for the website I write for, answeringislam.info. John Gilchrist, he wrote a series of booklets and books, because he was also in South Africa. He was the response to Diddat. So if you go to answeringislam.info, I'll walk you through it.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  Answering Islam, alright, yep. Now, if you look at individual authors, if you go down to the red, right there, individual authors, you're gonna see John Gilchrist. It's, yep, that man right there. He wrote a series of books and booklets responding to Diddat. I learned a lot from him. But his arguments were not devastating. So he, if you wanna say, I would say he's an influence. Another man that really influenced me, because he taught me how to think logically, is even here, it's on the website. If you go to William Campbell, William Campbell.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Right there to your left, all the way to your left Campbell, and then right there you see.

• 1:01:54Speaker 07

  Right in the middle, right.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Up, up.

• 1:01:56Speaker 07

  Yeah, there you go.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  He wrote a book, The Quran and the Bible: Light of History and Science. If you click on that, phenomenal book, phenomenal book. That book, man, I ate it up. Because he was writing a response to a man named Maurice Bouquet. He was the physician for the king of Saudi Arabia. He wrote a book in 1975, I believe, The Bible, Quran and Science. So he, as a non-Muslim, claimed, whereas the Bible's full of scientific errors, the Quran has none. In fact, it's a miracle. No, exactly. That book was being shoved down the throats of Christians. The Bible, Quran and Science. Dr. Maurice Bouquet. Conveniently, he's the physician of the king of Saudi Arabia, and he found no mistakes in the Quran.

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  Is that a coincidence? Yeah. No, no. Completely unbiased. So this guy took him to the, you know, took him to school, obliterated his arguments. That book right there, I can say, I probably read that book maybe 20 times.

• 1:02:55Speaker 09

  Wow.

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  Because he introduced, there's a chapter talking about deductive reasoning, right? And, you know, how to think logically, and how to avoid the etymological fallacy, or how to avoid chronological fallacy, where you read a later meaning of a word into an earlier period of time. So you can't do that. So if a word means X now, that doesn't mean it had the same meaning 300 years ago. So you cannot apply modern definitions to words in an earlier context. You have to see how those words were used at that time. He blessed me. Because the Muslims are all, "Yeah, well, the Arabic means this." Well, that means it means this now. What did it mean at the time, Muhammad? Because words evolved. Like even the word "pig," ironically. 100 years ago, you know, now you put it in one of the entries, a metaphorical slur,

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  policeman, cop, right? That would be one of the definitions. Was that the meaning 200 years ago? No. So words evolve. So you can't tell me, because the Arabic means this now, it meant that at the time when the Quran is written. So he taught me how to think critically. Now, the only problem is, this guy debated Zakhar Naik. And I was in the audience and sadly, he got slaughtered by Zachary Knight, so his book was discredited.

• 1:04:06Patrick Bet-David?

  William Campbell.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, he got this because he's not a debater. He was an older gentleman. See, some people, see, if you want the most effective takedown of anything, you gotta know people's strengths and weaknesses, and you gotta then put them in their areas of strength, keep them away from areas of weakness. So if I know you're a phenomenal speaker but not a debater, I'll let you speak. This guy's a devastating debater, he'll do the debates. If you're a phenomenal writer, not a good speaker, you do the writing. And if you're specialized, let's say in the Trinity, you only talk about the Trinity. He specializes in destroying, let's say, Hinduism. You don't deal with anti-Trinity, that's not your field. Stay in refuting Hinduism. You're great at Islam, you don't deal with Joe's Witnesses. You suck in that. Here's a guy, that's how you gotta do it.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  You gotta know people and their areas of strength. Like Robert Spencer, you won't find anyone better in political jihad and historical Muhammad. You put him there, he's gonna shine. No one's gonna touch him. So you gotta know the person and put them in their area of expertise. See, like me, I don't know much about science. I don't know much about atheism. The most stupidest thing I can do is debate an atheist. Because if it's about the glory of Christ, I don't wanna go embarrass myself and destroy faith. So let me bring those lions, Christians, who spend their time eating up atheists. So that's how you have to strategize. So Campbell was a great writer, not a great speaker.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  He got destroyed by Zachary Knight.

• 1:05:32Patrick Bet-David?

  This is the debate?

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  Yep, that's a clip from the debate.

• 1:05:34Patrick Bet-David?

  So who have you debated that's a high-level scholar-known Muslim debater?

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  That's hard to say. I think it would be my first debate with Chibraali. I think that's the only one credible. Everyone else tried to make a name, but it didn't go too far. There's not many great Muslim debaters, even today. They're popular ones, but that doesn't mean they're great.

• 1:05:56Patrick Bet-David?

  Who were the popular ones?

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  Daniel Hakikju, very popular. Muhammadine Jopp exploded. He's very popular.

• 1:06:04Patrick Bet-David?

  Would you debate him?

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:06:07Patrick Bet-David?

  You would debate Muhammadine Jopp?

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely. In fact, one thing though, I have to share because I know how to bring down Islam. You have to know... What to debate?

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  This is the problem with many Christians who set up debates, they don't know what to debate. If you want to see Islam destroyed, you have to know what to debate. And when you propose these debates, they'll try to make 10,000 excuses not to debate them because they'll know it's the end of Islam. Such as what? The one thing I always start with before I debate a Muslim, what did Muhammad say about the Bible? It's called the Islamic dilemma. Islamic dilemma? We put a Muslim in a dilemma. What's the dilemma? Well, just like my New Testament confirms the Old Testament. So as Christians, we can't attack the Old Testament. We're stuck with it. So when they tell me, "What about these wars in the Old Testament?", I can't say, "Ah, Jesus told me the Old Testament is God's word." So I gotta join with the Jews in defending the Old Testament. Right?

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Sometimes it's hard. But if I believe Jesus and I believe in his lordship, he told me the Old Testament is God's word, it's not the Vedas. I'm stuck. You know, "We love you, Lord, and you didn't make it too easy." Right? "We have to deal with all these..." "White everything that brings." Muhammad put them in a similar situation. All throughout the Quran, Muhammad said, "One of the proofs of his prophethood is that my Quran confirms your scriptures. It agrees with them." No, it doesn't. My Bible contradicts your Quran. That means the Quran is false. But see, the Muslims see that and say, "Oh, you must have changed the Bible." But the Quran never says it's been changed. They try to take a verse here and there out of context. And what you read the context, it'll either refer to the misinterpretation of the text

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  or a particular group in a particular area, but not the entire community itself. So once I debate that, anytime they attack the Bible, I go, "Oh, so you agree Muhammad is wrong." Why? He said my Bible is not changed. You said it is, so that means he's wrong. So are you gonna renounce Muhammad? See, this is how you have to do it. But then they'll come back and say... If they say, "Well, no, the Bible is right." Well, Muhammad is wrong again. Because my Bible says that what the Quran says about Jesus is wrong. So Islamic dilemma. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. See, once you do that, everything else falls in place.

• 1:08:23Patrick Bet-David?

  So you would debate him? And what topics would you debate him on?

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  I would love to get these guys to debate me Islamic dilemma. Whether the Quran is perfectly preserved, free of contradictions. Does Islam teach Tauhid? Meaning, does it teach the absolute oneness of Allah? Believe it or not, it doesn't. That's what they'll tell you. They'll sell you that script. And does the Bible teach a trinity and/or the deity of Christ? These are the foundational issues. Right? These are it. This is where you destroy Islam. Because Islam's bread and butter is, we have the purest form of monotheism. More so than you Christians, you worship three gods. Right? That's a lie from the pit of hell. Islam is anything but monotheism, if you really study its sources. But if you let them just give you their spiel and quote a verse here and quote a verse there, and catch you off-guard.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it sounds like it's more monotheistic than Christianity. It's actually very polytheistic.

• 1:09:16Patrick Bet-David?

  In what way?

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Well, if you deal with the Sunni Muslims, I'll go with that. Not Quran-only Muslims. They believe the Quran is the uncreated speech of Allah. So here's another problem that Christians have. They will debate the Bible versus the Quran. Wrong debate. Wrong debate. Because the Islamic understanding of the Quran is our view of Jesus. And this is something emitted by Muslim scholars. What do I mean? In Christianity, Christ is the uncreated eternal word of the Father who became flesh. Well, that's what they believe about the Quran. The Quran is the uncreated word of God that became a book. So your view of Jesus is their view of the Quran. It's not your view of the Bible. None of us think the Bible is the uncreated word of God. Impossible. Because God used human authors. And used their personalities.

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  So if you're gonna say it's the uncreated word of God, then you're gonna say those human authors also aren't created. It doesn't work.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  But Jesus is the uncreated word of God. John 1:1, "In the beginning was the word; the word was with God; the word was God; and then 14, the word became flesh." So, they took that idea of Jesus and applied it to the Quran. Something admitted by Muslim scholars. Now, if the Quran is the uncreated word of Allah, very easy dilemma. Is the Quran Allah? Is it the same as Allah? Now, in Islamic theology, they say, "It is not Allah, and it's not other than Allah." And they'll say, "Billa kif." "It's not Allah, it's not other than Allah." What does that mean? Meaning, no, it's not identical to Allah, but it's not separable from Allah. So, it's not identical to Him.

• 1:10:50Speaker 02

  Because Allah is not the Quran, Allah has a set of attributes. But, here's the problem. So, if you say the Quran is not Allah, and it's uncreated, how many uncreated entities do you have? Two. But I thought there's only one uncreated entity. Now, they have to sound like Christians saying, "Though they're distinct, they're inseparable, so they're one." "Oh, welcome to the wonderful world of the Trinity." That's the first step. Now, I can go further in their tradition. The Quran actually speaks. There are sound narrations, where it says, "On a day of judgment, the Quran will appear as a man interceding for you." Now, I'm kinda confused on that. If this is a speech of Allah, who is it speaking to? Well, it's speaking to Allah. So, Allah is speaking to Himself? No, no, no, no, the Quran is speaking to Allah, so it's not Allah.

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  Oh, so the Quran has its own consciousness? It can interact with Allah, so they're not the same person? They're different conscious entities, but they're inseparable? Wow, you're sounding more like a Trinitarian, the more we speak. Now, if you multiply with the chapters, even the chapters speak, and they appear. It says, "Chapter 2 and 3 of the Quran will appear as birds, and they will cover you with the wings, and they'll go before you, arguing with Allah to defend you."

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  Does that sound like Islam teaches absolute unity of Allah?

• 1:12:06Patrick Bet-David?

  Let me ask you, in regards to the religion itself, on how it's grown over the years. Okay, and I'm sure as you're going through it, you know, they've had a lot of success. They've grown at a pace where you can look at data on at by what you're, you know, the world's gonna be a majority Muslim, I think it's 2060 or something like that.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:12:28Patrick Bet-David?

  2060, 2070, and they're not slowing down. And you see the growth they're having in UK, 1980 was only half a million people living there, give or take. Today, they got four and a half million people, five million people living there. And you're seeing London grown the way that it is. The mayor is a three-term, only three-term mayor they've ever had, Sadiq Khan. And you're seeing what happened in New York with Mamdani getting elected, right? Muslim, democratic socialist. They're growing, okay? On the Christian side, I don't know if, you know, Charlie Kirk played offense. Charlie Kirk was out there doing a lot and getting a hold of young kids who Turning Point USA wanted to grow up and be able to defend their faith in a strong way. And he was becoming unapologetic, right? The way he was doing it, Charlie was.

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Patrick Bet-David?

  Why do you think their church is growing the way that it is?

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, if you look at it really and compare it, it's not really so much conversion. Yeah, they get converts, but even statistics have shown now, I don't know when the last statistic came out, but I remember years ago, one statistic showed that about over 90% of converts leave Islam in five years. Because they're giving a sanitized version of Islam that when they study, they realize it doesn't correspond to what they were taught.

• 1:13:46Patrick Bet-David?

  Over 90% of converts leave within five years?

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  That was a statistic that was mentioned years ago, but find out maybe, yeah, but they don't last, the majority of them don't. But those who end up, let's say, remaining, it's not much on conversion, but believe it or not, it has to do with procreation.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  If you look at it, unless they're completely westernized, right? If they're bought into the western dream and having more kids means greater financial responsibility, so have less kids. If they're not westernized, typically they have larger families. And because of that, if you have a Muslim who has a wife who has four kids, but then multiply that with two other wives on the side, we got problems. They're gonna outnumber you. But the thing is also, even with that said, we have to be careful. Islam is not monolithic. Just because you have majority Muslims, they don't all believe the same. And many Muslims are secular. They're not even devout Muslims, they're Muslims by name. And secondly, Muslims turn on each other. So even when we say they're growing, it's not one branch of Islam that's growing.

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  It is simply these populations who were then governed by Islam, many of whom don't know their tradition, or they don't have the same tradition. And they're growing because of procreation, more so than conversion. And then at times, they become their worst enemies. In fact, if I'm correct, I'm not into the political thing, but what about the fights between Shia and Sunnis, even in recent times? In fact, I've seen videos where you'll find Sunni, the terrorist in Iraq, killing more Shia than non-Muslims. Why is that? Because they think Shia is even worse, because of their views of Ayesha. Not all Shia are extreme. So they turn on each other. They're not all in agreement, they're not monolithic.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  So even when you say, "Oh, they're gonna be over 2 billion." But 2 billion Muslims of different mindsets, of different sects, that don't all agree, and at times they turn against each other and anethematize one another. Same thing with Christianity. So I'm not trying to say Christianity doesn't have that problem, right? We Christians, okay, when you say there are 2 billion Christians, well, among those, you're counting Joe's Witnesses, and you're counting Mormons, and you're counting all these cult groups that identifies Christianity. You're not just counting historic Christian churches, you're not just counting the Catholic Church, or you're counting all who sign off as a Christian. And some of them are Christian by name, but live like the devil. So are they really Christian? When you have a Muslim saying he's a Muslim, but he drinks and eats pork, and you know they do that. Of course. We've met them, especially in Chicago.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  My teenage years, I had a couple of good buddies. They were anything but Muslim, right? So it's to say you're Muslim is one thing, but to say practicing Muslims, how many?

• 1:16:28Patrick Bet-David?

  Well, let me, let me ask this because you know, you'll talk to some people who are Jewish. They'll say, I'm Jew-ish, right? You know, Adam will say, I'm Jew-ish. You know, I'm not really Jewish, I'm more Jewish.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I see.

• 1:16:40Patrick Bet-David?

  Uh, you know, and, and, but you have that, you know, the, the watered down, you know, Christians, Jews and Muslims.

• 1:16:48Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:16:48Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay, however, which one has more radical true believers of their faith? Okay, so forget about the 2 billion. Forget about the 2.1 billion Christians. Forget about the 15 million Jews. Forget about, you know, all those that we can go through. Which one has a bigger percentage of true believers? That they have fully bought into their vision long-term and they're imposing, they're driving.

• 1:17:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:14Patrick Bet-David?

  That's the number you gotta look at, right?

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's, that's the thing. I haven't done any in- uh, intensive study on Christians who are devout Christians. But you have a revival happening right now. You're having a revival where the youth are not just nominal Christians. They are being sparked up to be on fire for Christ. So this is why I say I, I can't really give you a number if there are more zealous Muslims than Christians, but to say that in recent times, because of recent events, there hasn't, the spirit is moving in such a way that I'm also astonished seeing the hunger among youth to want to now come back to their Christian roots or even, by the way, you're having an explosion of converts of Islam and Muslim lands. They even say that the church is exploding in Africa and in Iran.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  They go, there are a lot of Iranians who've become Christian, they're underground. But even with that said, like I, when I say Christianity, this is again, we have to be fair, they're converting to a variety of forms of Christianity. Some are becoming Mormons. Well, do we, do we consider them Christian, right? Joe's witnesses or oneness. So to say, how many are zealous? I'd have to look at the statistics, but. We, from my own experience seeing online, I'm seeing the youth come in droves on fire to reclaim their Christian faith and on fire for Jesus. I'm seeing it. When I was doing it in the late 90s or 2000, it wasn't the way it is now. So the YouTube is having a, well, whatever, not just YouTube, but you get what I'm saying.

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  Having a huge impact. It is causing people to look into Christianity. And I am seeing a lot of Muslims leave Islam for Christianity. But I am seeing people who convert to Islam, but those are the Christians, and I have to say, very poorly catechized and being given a sanitized version of Islam. Because I've interviewed people who said, "I became a Muslim five years ago, but then I found such and such, or such and such, and I saw, and I was shocked, that this is what Islam teaches. I can't be a Muslim anymore." Because they give you a sanitized version of Islam. See, the difference with Jesus Christ, here's the difference. The more you get to know Muhammad and his teaching, the more repulsive it turns out to be.

• 1:19:28Speaker 02

  The more you get to know Jesus, the more irresistible he is. The more you fall in love with him. He is beauty in the flesh. If you want to show a person, why not to become Muslim? Just compare Muhammad to Jesus. Because Jesus makes everything else look ugly. Because he's just beautiful. What can you say bad about Jesus? I mean, even from the Islamic perspective, one of the ways I even argue my case that Jesus is superior to Muhammad, I use the Islamic Jesus. Because I don't believe the Islamic Jesus is the real Jesus, right? Because Paul told us, if you go to 2 Corinthians, Chapter 11, he warned. He's warning the church. 2 Corinthians, Chapter 11, Verse 1 of 4, he's warning the church.

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  He goes, "Look, I converted you, basically, so you're my spiritual daughter." Because he's their spiritual father. He goes, "I have betrothed you as a chaste virgin to one husband." Because the church is the bride of Christ, so this is spiritual. It's nothing carnal, nothing physiological, because we have to emphasize that because we have people, sick minds, who think that Christ is gonna come and have a physical wife. No, it's the church, the spiritual bride of Christ. But there is something called spiritual virginity. Paul uses it. "I want to present you as a chaste virgin to one husband, but I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, you too will be deceived from your simple devotion to Christ."

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  Now, how does Satan, the serpent, rob us of our spiritual virginity? He says it. In verse 4, he says, "Because if someone comes and preaches another Jesus than we preached, or a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel, you put up with it easily." So he's saying, the way Satan makes Christians lose their integrity, virginity, is by presenting another Jesus and you tolerate it. Well, he's talking about the Islamic Jesus. And I'm not saying he knew about it, but the other Jesus is the Jesus of Islam, or Mormonism, or Joe's Witnesses. It's not the same Jesus. There's only one Jesus, and you gotta get him right. So the Jesus that Paul preached was God in the flesh, one with the Father and the Spirit. Any other Jesus is Satan's way of deceiving you. So when we say to Muslims, "Yeah, you know, we all honor Jesus."

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  No, we don't. I don't honor your Jesus. Your Jesus is not my Jesus. So, but when Christians go with it, Paul says, "See now, you let the serpent con you. You just fell for his trick." That's his trick. "Yeah, you believe in Jesus, I believe in Jesus, yeah." No, your Jesus is Isa, who announced the coming of Muhammad. My Jesus is the God of Muhammad, before whose feet Muhammad will bow and confess he is Lord. Is that your Jesus? They'll say, "No." Then your Jesus is not my Jesus. So this is the mindset you have to have. Go ahead, you want to say something?

• 1:22:11Patrick Bet-David?

  For, you know, the, the, the part that, uh, uh, I watched this young lady, and I want to ask this because to me, I think about it on what benefit it has, right? This young lady is asking, uh, you know who he's, she's asking, obviously.

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, Zekir Knight.

• 1:22:25Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, Zekir Knight, that's right.

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  That's the one who defeated William Campbell.

• 1:22:28Patrick Bet-David?

  That's right, that's right. So she's asking him, hey, if men go to heaven, they get seventy-two virgins, what do women get?

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  Good question.

• 1:22:37Patrick Bet-David?

  And this is his answer, very good question. Go ahead, Ram.

• 1:22:40Speaker 10

  Mother said that Muslims go to heaven, and then they get seventy-two, who are seventy-two women, the men. What will the women get? And if, so as far as your first question, your second question, I'll answer first and then come back to your first question. As far as the question is concerned, that if the men go to heaven, they'll get seventy-two who are that beautiful women. What will the women get? The same question was asked to Hadiya Shama Alaa between the third, who's the wife of the Prophet. So the wife of the Prophet replied that the women will get that which your heart hasn't desired, what your eyes hasn't seen, what a year hasn't heard about. That means, Insha Allah, you'll get something equal. What your heart hasn't desired, what your eyes hasn't seen, what a year hasn't heard. So, Insha Allah, if you go to heaven, you will get something good, which, Insha Allah, you'll be satisfied. But the question is first you have to enter heaven. If you don't enter heaven, you won't get that something which is good.

• 1:23:25Patrick Bet-David?

  What does that mean?

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  Uh, did you see the, he didn't answer the question?

• 1:23:27Patrick Bet-David?

  He didn't answer it at all.

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  No, no, pay attention to his trick. Oh, yeah, the Quran says, you know, a woman will get what eye hasn't seen, right? Okay, well, hold on. Does that mean she's going to get seventy men? He never said yes. Did you catch that? Because he can't say that. That would be a lie from the pit of hell. So he's an excellent politician. He knows how to get around it. Because if you pay attention, he never said, women will get multiple men. He can't say that. So, but you're going to get delights that are mind-blowing. Okay, I understand that. Does that include that the woman gets multiple men? Oh, but you're going to get what the eye has never seen or the mind has comprehended. Okay, but does that mean I'm going to get more than one husband? See, this is the rhetoric I'm talking about.

• 1:24:08Patrick Bet-David?

  But what do women get in the Muslim religion?

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  Well...

• 1:24:10Patrick Bet-David?

  In Islam, you know...

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  Can I tell you?

• 1:24:12Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  You will be part of the Hooris that your husband will deflower for all eternity.

• 1:24:17Patrick Bet-David?

  Tell me more.

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  Okay, now, let's say you're a good Muslim woman.

• 1:24:20Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  You married a Muslim man.

• 1:24:21Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  Now, it's difficult to ascertain if you've been married multiple times, which Muslim man. But if you pass the test and you had a good Muslim husband, Allah will then make you part of those Hooris for your husband to deflower. You'll be one among many. No, I'm the

• 1:24:36Speaker 09

  It's a crappy deal for the, for the girl.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  Exactly. Why do you think she asked? And notice he never said, "Oh, you're gonna get 70 men." He can't say that. He knows he'd be lying. So that means a Muslim woman, she'll have huge breasts, firm breasts, 7, 8, 33. She'll be part of the Hura Ayn, you know? If I tell you where that word comes from, our English word whore comes from that word, by the way.

• 1:24:59Speaker 09

  I was just gonna say, it sounds really familiar to whore.

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I really, it's not, yeah.

• 1:25:03Speaker 09

  When he said, "You're going to be a whore?" I was like, "Okay, that didn't sound..."

• 1:25:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was almost gonna break out with an impression. The brother said, "The, the, the..." But we're not doing comedy, Vincent. Vincent, we ain't doing comedy.

• 1:25:14Patrick Bet-David?

  Look at his birthday, by the way.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  What is it?

• 1:25:16Speaker 09

  October 18.

• 1:25:19Patrick Bet-David?

  He's born on the same day, but we have a same birthday, 13 years apart.

• 1:25:23Speaker 02

  But thank God.

• 1:25:23Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, thank God.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  You're a muscular handsome Assyrian beast.

• 1:25:25Patrick Bet-David?

  Very different, buddy.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  I'm surrounded by muscular beasts too, but anyway.

• 1:25:29Patrick Bet-David?

  My man. So, so, okay, so, so the contradictions of what a man gets versus what a woman gets. If, if I'm a logical guy and I'm truly looking for religion and I'm open-minded.

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:25:44Patrick Bet-David?

  And I'm looking to the Christian church, I'm going, you know, studying Judaism, maybe I can go that direction. I'm studying Scientology, LDS, and I'm, and I'm also putting Becoming a Muslim, right? 72 virgins. How, how can I buy into that if I got anything but a B or higher in math in high school?

• 1:26:05Patrick Bet-David?

  Do you understand what I'm saying? I don't know if you got what I'm saying. So

• 1:26:09Patrick Bet-David?

  how, how does the math add up?

• 1:26:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, you mean with Islam?

• 1:26:12Patrick Bet-David?

  How many billions of Muslim men have died? That means there is 72... Like the math, I'm running that... So help me, this is a math question I'm asking.

• 1:26:24Speaker 02

  Brother, you underestimate the greatness of Allah.

• 1:26:27Patrick Bet-David?

  That's probably what it is.

• 1:26:28Speaker 02

  The problem is Allah can meet the demand by just giving you, just creating as many Hura Ayns you need. See, this is why you, you're a kafir, brother. You don't have faith. Allah can do what no eye, didn't you remember what no eye has seen, brother? No heart has come. By the way, that's a plagiarism of Paul. He was quoting Paul because Muhammad took Paul's words. That statement comes from 1 Corinthians 2, verse 9. But Muhammad heard it and misapplied it, misappropriated it. So if you go to 1 Corinthians 2, you're gonna see that the context is about what God has in store for believers who love Him. It's 1 Corinthians 2:9. But Muhammad took it, adapted it, reinterpreted it.

• 1:27:12Speaker 02

  So ironically Muhammad is quoting Paul, not Jesus here. Because if you go to 1 Corinthians 2, you read 9, all the way to 12, you'll see what the context is. It's in verse 9. What no eye has seen. Wow, sound familiar, brother?

• 1:27:22Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 1:27:23Speaker 02

  Hmm. What no ear has heard, what no human mind has conceived, the things that God has prepared for those who love Him. Wow, I...

• 1:27:30Patrick Bet-David?

  Can you play that again, Rob?

• 1:27:31Speaker 10

  Sounds familiar.

• 1:27:32Patrick Bet-David?

  Can you play that again? On, on, uh, go ahead. But mother brother said, okay brother said, you, but this is careful now.

• 1:27:38Speaker 10

  And then they get 72, who are, 72, who are the men? What will the women get? And if, so as far as your first question, your second question, I'll answer first and then come back to your first question. As far as the question is concerned, that if the men go to heaven, they'll get 72, who are that beautiful women? What will the women get? The same question was asked to Allah between the third, who's the wife of the prophet. So the wife of the prophet replied that the woman will get that which your heart hasn't desired, what your eyes haven't seen, what a year hasn't heard about. Weird. I've heard that before. That means Insha Allah you'll get something equal. What your heart hasn't desired, what your eyes haven't seen, what a year hasn't heard. So Insha Allah, if you go to heaven...

• 1:28:14Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, that's interesting. So what, what, what is, what is the, is that, how much of the selling point of becoming a Muslim is that? Is, is that a big part of it or is that a small part of it? I mean, why would somebody who's a green, who is open? You know, Muhammad Ali doesn't give me the vibes of being a guy that's not smart. Right?

• 1:28:36Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 1:28:36Patrick Bet-David?

  Malcolm X doesn't give me the, you know, vibes of a guy that's not smart. I mean, you, you, you, very intelligent. Even Farrakhan, you see, what, what gets them to say? You know, I'm converting, I'm going. A lot of people I know who, you know, have gone that direction, these are smart guys that I've had dinner with, I've had lunch with, I sit down with them, intelligent, good citizens, good families, good upbringing, good, you know, even some of these guys are very good, net positive to society. What is the selling point?

• 1:29:05Speaker 02

  You can be smart in one way, and completely oblivious in another way, right? So when you say smart, in what sense? Business smart, okay, but that does not equate to being theologically smart.

• 1:29:15Patrick Bet-David?

  That's true.

• 1:29:16Speaker 02

  So, Muhammad Ali, if you really know why he converted, it was more because of the emphasis on black supremacy. He became a member of the Nation of Islam. Nation of Islam is just black supremacist mindset. So when you're oppressed, and you have someone saying, "Hey, you're the original man, and Allah's a black man, and the white man's a devil," if you feel oppressed and inferior, that kind of gives you the false pretext that, no, you're special, and that's why you're being oppressed. So, his conversion wasn't because he knew Islam. He knew black supremacy, black-centric Islam, which is contrary to the teaching of historic Islam. So when you say, "Why did he ...?" Yeah, they're smart, but are they

• 1:29:59Speaker 02

  smart in religion? Have they studied their sources? Do they understand? Because you have brilliant Christians who are millionaires, but don't know a lick of the Bible. So, I don't deny they're intelligent one way, but it doesn't mean they understand their sources. Now, when you say, "Is this a selling point?" This is one of the things they don't mention. This is why I was saying, that within five years, when people study Islam and see the horrific, horrendous aspects of Islam, they're shocked. That's why they accuse us of lying immediately. When I say, "The Quran says it, you're lying," doesn't say, because they're shocked. So I don't want to give the impression that the Muslims are the villains. They're not. And I'm not saying to be politically correct. Most Muslims have no idea what Islam teaches. They're just cultural Muslims. They'll go pray five times a day, and they just want

• 1:30:43Speaker 02

  to get along. It's those fanatical Muslims that are dangerous, and they're about 10%. If you, they say statistically, about 10% that are fanatic, but 10% of 2 billion, that's still a large number, right? Most Muslims have no idea. Most Christians have no idea. Christianity, if I ask a Christian about the Old Testament wars, they're shocked to hear that too. In fact, if I recall, in the debate, didn't they bring up some of the Old Testament wars to try to scandalize the Christian debaters? Because even Christians don't know about, hey, kill everything that reads. There's a context to that. I mean, Jesus forces us to try and understand the logic, you know? I mean, even when I came to the faith, it was difficult. But then, as I understood and I studied, oh, I understand now.

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  But we can get into that. Point being, just like a Christian will be shocked to hear what's in his Bible, if he's not properly trained, most Muslims are shocked to hear when I say, "Oh, Hazrat Aisha." He said Hazrat Aisha. "Did you know she was nine when Muhammad deflowered her?" You're a liar. You're lying, right? But wait, you're so... Then they say, "Well, it was acceptable at that time." Or, "No, these are lies. These are later traditions." So, not every Muslim is on board, because not every Muslim knows. But if you're convinced, now here's the problem. If you're convinced it's the truth, you're stuck with it. Okay, what option do I have?

• 1:32:02Patrick Bet-David?

  In one of the conversations with a woman, she's talking to you about being a Muslim, and then you tell the story about how he did something to his wife because she got fat and unattractive and left her in.

• 1:32:17Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, Sada bin Zama.

• 1:32:18Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:20Speaker 02

  Boy, you've really been watching me. You still like me, invite me?

• 1:32:23Patrick Bet-David?

  Oh, yeah. I've been watching the last two days. I don't know how many hours of content of yours I've watched.

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, according to, again, you have to go with the Islamic narrative, right? Some people say, "Well, that's just later tradition." Sura Thun Nisa, chapter 4, 128. If you want to open up, I'll give you the context. 4, 128. You're gonna see the context here, yeah.

• 1:32:45Speaker 02

  Sura Thun Nisa, chapter 4, 128. Yeah, if he opens it up. I don't know. I would recommend a browser, but I don't know which one. The one I have for the website.

• 1:32:54Patrick Bet-David?

  This is in the Quran?

• 1:32:55Speaker 02

  Yep. Watch here, 120. Chapter 4, 128, not 1 to 28, sorry.

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  128. This is the context of the passage. I'm gonna explain it here. Now, if you're not a Sunni, you can reject this. If you're a Quran-only Muslim, you can reject this, because this is based on the Hadith. Because if you want to know, okay, what was the context of these verses? They have what's called "Azbab al-Nuzul," the occasional reason of revelation. So you gotta go into the commentaries, you gotta go into books, and it's, "Oh, this verse was revealed because of this." But that's not in the Quran. So if someone wants to reject it, they'll say, "Well, it doesn't say so." He'd be right. But then I'd say, I'd turn back and say, "Well, what's the context, and how do you know? When was this composed?" If he tells me, "Oh, 6th century," I go, "Well, the Quran doesn't tell you 6th century. How did you get that? Oh, from the same sources I just quoted that you rejected."

• 1:33:40Speaker 02

  Hmm, interesting. So you'll go to them when need be, but when it disproves your point, no, it's now suspect. But these are the same sources that told you that this is revealed in Medina and at this year, because the Quran doesn't tell you. But nonetheless, if we read it, here's the thing. "And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or desertion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them, and settlement is best." Now, what is that about? Well, if I go to the tradition, Muhammad had at one time 11 wives, even more than has got allowed for others. If you go to chapter 4, verse 3 of the Quran, you don't need to turn there. But 4, verse 3, it says, "You can have 2, or 3, or 4 wives, if you can be fair.

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  If not, have one. But," then it says, "and as many as your right hands possess." See, that part is not emphasized. So the Quran allows unlimited concubineage. So while you'll hear stories when you have people who go to Saudi Arabia to be maids, they don't know they're signing up for sex. That's part of the deal. Because in Islam, if you are a maid or a servant, the man has conjugal rights to sleep with you. You're signing up for that. That's in chapter 4, verse 3 of the Quran. It's there. I didn't write it. You know, don't get angry at me and put a hit on me or my friends. I didn't write it.

• 1:34:56Patrick Bet-David?

  Quran 4:3.

• 1:34:57Speaker 02

  Chapter 4, verse 3. If you want to show it to him, then we can come back here, you'll see.

• 1:35:01Speaker 00

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• 1:35:46Patrick Bet-David?

  A maid?

• 1:35:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's called "Your Right Hand Possesses," meaning "that which is under your control." Whether a servant, or a maid, or anything here. And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphans, then marry those that please you of other woman, two or three or four. But if fear that you will not be just, then marry one or those your right hands possess. Right hand possession means, your kunkie minds, you're free to have as many as you want. But if you want to marry, you can only have up to four. But it doesn't tell you, okay, the four plus the slave girls, or the maids. That's authentic Islam, Sunni and Shia tradition. There's not, because it's in the Quran, right?

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  So that part seems to have, you know, been glossed over. I guess many people didn't get the memo. So when you, go ahead, brother.

• 1:36:37Speaker 09

  I'm just curious, how so many, I know you're not political, but how so many of these Ilhan Omar and all these women of Muslim faith, like they're "my body, my choice and everything." But then every single thing in the Quran is anti them, 72, like those 72 virgins. Sam, for every guy that goes and has all these virgins, like, what type of life is it as a Muslim woman that you die and your eternity is up there having sex with all these guys? Like, it doesn't make any sense to me.

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  Well, it does one of two things. It makes them leave Islam, or remember, if you've been convinced that Allah's God and this is the only religion, well, hey, what choice do I have? You see, understand?

• 1:37:17Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  What, okay, if I have been duped and beyond any reason without convinced this is true, I'm stuck. What do you want me to do, Vinnie?

• 1:37:27Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 1:37:28Speaker 02

  This is how Allah, hey, Allah does what he wants. I'm just glad I'll be there. I won't be burning in the fire. See, this is the, why do I say you have to be careful demonizing all Muslims? Because many of them are victims of the system. Right? And I don't know, I was gonna say, but anyway, they're victims of the system. But coming to the explanation, I mean, explain 4:128. Now, remember, how many wives can the Muslim have? Two, three, or four. Yeah, see, I mean, you can have two, three, four.

• 1:37:54Speaker 09

  Okay, if you can handle it and be, yeah.

• 1:37:56Speaker 02

  Muhammad had eleven.

• 1:37:58Speaker 09

  Eleven.

• 1:37:59Speaker 02

  When he died, he widowed nine. Now, what makes it more tragic and disgusting? This is why I cannot believe if someone knows Jesus, he'd leave Jesus for Muhammad. So I say, if you want to really get people to never consider Muhammad, say, look what Muhammad did compared to Jesus. Jesus's beauty will show you how disgusting these teachings are. Right? Focusing on, look at Christ, look at, in fact, comparing Muhammad to Paul, the apostle, a glorious, holy servant of Christ, and all he was was a servant. If you see his lifestyle and his purity, he makes Muhammad look filthy and by comparison. Just Paul, who's not our God in the flesh, but nonetheless, not only in 4:128, if you go back, did Muhammad treat one of his wives unjustly.

• 1:38:43Speaker 02

  Every single wife of Muhammad, after he died, could never remarry again. That's in the Quran. You cannot have his wives after him. So he left some of them widows, Ayesha was 18, they say, and others in their 20s widows, and some of them lived to their 50s without ever being able to marry, have children. This is what he did to them. And you're telling me he's a mercy unto mankind? Seriously? And what does it tell you about a man who had nine wives and couldn't get any of them pregnant?

• 1:39:13Speaker 02

  They say that his first wife Khadija bin Khwailid, that was his first wife, she was 15 years his senior, she was actually his boss, he used to work for her. If we go with the, again, remember, we're going by the Islamic narrative. He used to work for her, and she was so impressed by his conduct, she proposed marriage. And he married her. According to Islamic tradition, she was a wealthy merchant woman, because she had married two wealthy men, and they died, left their fortune. And he used to be a caravan trader for her. So she was his boss, according to the Sunni tradition. He married her when he was 25, she was 40, and so she supposedly mothered all his children. But every son he had died as a toddler.

• 1:39:58Speaker 02

  None of his sons lived even to adulthood. Now, he only stayed with her until she died. Now, I want to explain to you why it is significant. After that, he went crazy, he started just collecting wives.

• 1:40:12Speaker 02

  All his children, not only the sons died as toddlers, but even his daughters, who got married later, died. The only child that outlived them was his daughter Fatima, who then died six months later, and she was married to Ali ibn Abu Talib, who's his first cousin, and hence you get the Shia and Sunni divide. Because Muhammad's lineage is traced to his daughter Fatima, because she gave him two grandsons, Hassan and Hussein. This is where the Shia trace Ahlul Bayt. So this has significance with the Shia and the Sunni, they don't get along. Fatima, right? Ali, who's supposedly the rightful successor mom, but he was robbed. She gave him his two grandsons, because he had no boys, he had no successors, Hassan and Hussein.

• 1:40:54Speaker 02

  Ahlul Bayt, the family line of Muhammad supposedly comes from that line, but with that said,

• 1:41:01Speaker 02

  oh supposedly, he got Khadija pregnant when she was 40, okay, we'll give him that. The other wives, he couldn't get any of them pregnant, but then he had a sex slave, Maria al-Qubdiya. Mary the cop, sent to him. He supposedly got her pregnant, she gave birth to his son Ibrahim, and he died when he was two. Okay, so, maybe, something happened, he got lucky with her. There's some questions whether that was really his son, but we don't get into that. My whole point is, of all these women, he only got one woman supposedly pregnant after Khadijah, son who died, none of the other women who can get pregnant, not even Aisha, who married at nine, left them all childless and widows, who could never remarry again. And he's a mercy unto women?

• 1:41:45Speaker 02

  Where's the mercy in leaving these women without a husband or children for the rest of their days? That's merciful? Women have needs, right? They want companionship, they want intimacy, they want children, and he left them with none of that. And you're telling me he's a mercy unto mankind? Now, to show you how cruel he is, that's where you're gonna come, 4:128. Now you're gonna see the cruelty of Muhammad. Now you're gonna see how this man is considered a mercy unto... I have no idea. Man, if he's merciful, then you and me, Vinnie...

• 1:42:12Speaker 09

  We're in trouble.

• 1:42:13Speaker 02

  Osh, my goodness. Now, it says, "If a woman fears from her husband contempt or desertion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them." Now, the context is, Sada bin Zama. She was an older wife of Muhammad. Now, when he was married to Khadijah, he never got married. When she died, it says, that then he multiplied wives. Second wife was Aisha. My memory fails me if it was Um Salama, the first one, but nonetheless, he married her among the eleven wives. But he was no longer attracted to her. This is in the Muslim tradition, I didn't write this. Sahil Bukhari, Sahim Muslim, you know, they're writing this, so I don't want people to condemn me to hell.

• 1:42:57Speaker 02

  They can look at any commentary. And she feared that mom was gonna divorce her. There's even a hadith in Bukhari that says, she would go out to the call of nature, but because she was a huge fat lady, you wouldn't miss her, you know it's her. "Hey, what are you doing? We can see you." So it describes a huge fat lady. So she's a large woman and an older woman. She feared Muhammad is going to divorce her. So she made a deal with him. "Keep me as your wife, but you don't have to visit me." Because part of the deal was, he would have to visit these wives on successive days. But the Quran says it's up to him. He can choose not to. "You know, I'm not going to see you. I'm going to see you." The Quran says it's up to his discretion. That's chapter 33 of the Quran, verses 50 to 51.

• 1:43:42Patrick Bet-David?

  Which wife you want to see and which wife you don't want to see?

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, up to you.

• 1:43:44Patrick Bet-David?

  So there's not a set schedule calendar you have to follow?

• 1:43:47Speaker 02

  So that means you'd be thankful if he chooses to see you. Be grateful. So she comes to him and says, "Look, don't divorce me. Keep me as your wife." Now remember, each wife has to have her own house. And she cannot go out unless there's a need, and with his permission. So can you manage your under house arrest, pretty much? You can only go if it's a need, or he gives you permission. So he has 11 wives, 11 homes. They have to stay home until he says, "You can come out," or if it's something really like, "Hey, I gotta run to the toilet."

• 1:44:23Speaker 02

  This woman said, "Don't divorce me. Keep me as your wife. And the day assigned to me, you can give it to Aisha." So Aisha had two days.

• 1:44:33Patrick Bet-David?

  The nine-year-old.

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  Yep. And he left this woman in a house, all by herself, the rest of her days.

• 1:44:41Speaker 02

  And then Quran says, "Good agreement." If you agree to it, no problem. So his God said, "That's the deal. Go with it." Now, why did she want to be his wife? See, this is again, because the Quran says that all of Muhammad's wives will be his wives in paradise. So she was hoping that if he didn't divorce her, she'd end up with him in paradise. See the mindset?

• 1:45:02Speaker 02

  Please don't divorce me. Let me die as your wife. So at least in paradise, I'll be your wife. And he left this woman alone in a house without, you know, and having no children with her. All because he was not attracted to her and she knew it. And she said, "Don't divorce me." Now, if Muhammad was merciful, you know what? A merciful God and a prophet would say, "What are you crazy? I love you just as much as the first day I laid my eyes on. In fact, I love you more." "What do you mean? No, you're my wife and I'm gonna honor you." "Okay, good deal. Let's go for it." And it's sanctioned in the Quran.

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  See what it says? "If a woman fears from her husband contempt or desertion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them and someone's best." So if you agree to this? Alright, good deal. Go with it. But who wins in this deal? The men.

• 1:45:51Speaker 02

  The men are winning. The women are getting abused. I don't know how in the world this guy is a mercy unto mankind and when people tell me, "Respect my prophet," how can I respect such a man? Who has not only destroyed the people around him.

• 1:46:03Patrick Bet-David?

  Sam, how much, uh, when you walk in the streets, how often have Muslims approached you? You know, what kind of threats are you getting when you're out there saying what you're saying?

• 1:46:14Speaker 02

  Interestingly, TikTok and Instagram, the clips made me famous. Not because I wanted to. So if I'm going places, I'll get recognized, but Muslims, even if they recognize me, will try to avoid me. You know, because remember, they, unless it's a fanatic wants to kill me, they're not here to kill or go to jail. Right? So if they even recognize me, they won't come up to me. Right? Because again, this stereotype, not all Muslims are killers, not all Muslims are terrorists. So I haven't run into the wrong Muslims.

• 1:46:45Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:45Speaker 02

  I haven't run into them.

• 1:46:46Patrick Bet-David?

  Got it.

• 1:46:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, so thank God.

• 1:46:48Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, no, that's a very good thing. It's a very good thing. By the way, in regards to us Assyrians, uh, you know, the story about what happened with us? You're a good storyteller. You know how to break things down well.

• 1:47:01Speaker 02

  I don't know if I can.

• 1:47:03Patrick Bet-David?

  What happened to Assyrians? We used to have a country, you know, the fall of Babel. What happened to us?

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  If you're asking me from a theological perspective, because Old Testament history... Because it's not just prophecy, it's history. Well, we're told in the book of Nahum. If you're asking me now, just as a Christian. All right, let's see the political landscape from the revelation God has given. Because that's the only source I have, right? I mean, if we can conjecture all we want, your opinion is just as good as mine. But if I believe the Bible is God's word, and this is God's perspective, he's a reality. The Lord will often destroy nations who've reached a limit of sin of how much he tolerates. The Bible says there's like a debt ceiling. There's so much sin he tolerates, and then that's over for you. So we're told in the book of Nahum, this is the judgment of Nineveh.

• 1:47:51Speaker 02

  He says, because of the Assyrians being steeped. And it's not just Assyrians, see this thing. God does this with all the nations. You can just start reading from Isaiah, chapter 10 on, all the way you're gonna see, all the way to 19. God is talking about the judgment of all the nations, like, you know, the Moabites, the Ammonites, the Babylonians. Because why? God owns them all. This is where people misread the Old Testament. They go, oh, this book is the Old Testament, and he's the God of Israel. If you read the Old Testament, God keeps saying, I'm the God of all nations. The reason why I'm working through Israel is to move them to worship me. This is the theme in the Old Testament. And point of fact, I want to ask you guys a question as I answer this one. When is the last time you were told that there's another group set to be God's people in the Old Testament, besides Israel?

• 1:48:35Speaker 02

  Because you're told that Israel is the people of God, right? When is the last time someone told you that very Old Testament says there's another group that is set to be the people of God? It's the very passage every Assyrian and his mother quotes that talks about Assyrian Egypt. In Isaiah 19, 23 to 25, specifically 25, it goes, Egypt, my people. Assyria, the work of my hands. Israel, my inheritance. Does that sound like a tribal God?

• 1:49:04Speaker 02

  He says, "Egypt is my people." So when we read the Old Testament, sometimes we're misreading it due to particular theological dispositions or political points of view. The God of the Old Testament is quite clear. The response of Israel was to be his priest to lead the nations to him. And do you know the one group of people that are the most attacked in the Old Testament? Are the Israelites. Now, what that tells me is this is a brutally honest record. Because if you're making up stories, you're gonna sugarcoat things, right?

• 1:49:35Patrick Bet-David?

  Are you talking about the forgotten nation of prophecy by John Boko?

• 1:49:39Speaker 02

  No, no, I'm not talking about the book.

• 1:49:40Patrick Bet-David?

  You're not talking about that?

• 1:49:41Speaker 02

  I'm talking about Isaiah 1923 to 25.

• 1:49:42Patrick Bet-David?

  I get that, but he talks about that in the book, right?

• 1:49:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's trying to focus on Assyria. I actually met him. I think he went to be with the Lord. Good man. I don't know if he's still around. I saw him years ago. But my point being, I'm not talking about future per se. God in the Old Testament talks about the nations, and His love for them, and His desire to save them. He doesn't talk about Israel. The role of Israel in the Old Testament, as I'm preparing to answer your question, because I want to give a context to the Old Testament. Because if I just say, "Well, God says He's gonna destroy and innovate." "Oh, look at this, this Old Testament..." No. God says to the Israelites, "You see what I do to nations? I'm gonna do worse to you if you don't toe the line." That's why I know this book is... Look, if I'm making up a book, I'm gonna make myself look as good as possible. The people that are the thorn in God's side,

• 1:50:28Speaker 02

  that God has the hardest time with, are the Israelites. So that tells me, this is a brutally honest record that's not trying to sugarcoat and make one people superior. On the contrary, God keeps reminding them, "Don't you dare discriminate against the Gentiles." If a Gentile comes and live in your midst, treat him as a native Israelite. He's not less than you. And I can give you the receipts. So with that in the context, because what is God's heart for Assyria? He doesn't want Assyria to die. Isaiah 1923 to 25 tells you, "There'll be a highway between the land of Egypt and Assyria." And then he goes, "Assyria, the work of my hands."

• 1:51:09Speaker 02

  The Book of Jonah is all about God wanting no nation to perish, not even the Assyrians, because he said to Jonah, "Give them forty days, forty days and the great city of Nineveh will be destroyed." But when they turned to national repentance, God turned back from his wrath. And then Jonah says something interesting. If you go to Jonah, chapter four, verses one to three, if you open up specifically two, look what he says. He goes, "See, I knew this is the kind of God you are. And that's why I wanted to run, because I wanted you to destroy them, because I knew if they repented, you would forgive them, because that's the kind of God you are. You don't want anyone to perish." His hatred for the Assyrians was so great, that he knew if he reached them and they turned, God would spare them, because God loves all people. And this is the God of the Old Testament.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  Because people always go to the New Testament. No, I'll show you from the Old Testament, it's the same God. So if you open up Jonah, chapter four, verses one to three, you're gonna see it. So this is the context in which I will put the Book of Nahum. Jonah four, and Jonah knows it. Now, when I look at you handsome warriors, I can see why he wanted you guys wiped out. You were a thorn in the side of his people. But look what he says. Jonah four, verses one to three. You can open up just Jonah, chapter four. Yeah, that's it. You don't need to put chapter four, I think. You just put Jonah and then four. It's like, man, I can't keep up with this guy. It's not my fault you're not Assyrian, brother. Now watch your... But to Jonah, this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. Angry at what? He didn't destroy the Ninevites.

• 1:52:35Speaker 02

  He didn't destroy all the Jelus, right? He prayed to the Lord. "Isn't this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home, meaning, isn't that what I reasoned myself, that if they turned, you would spare them? Now why? That is why I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, Lord, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live." He hit depression, that you didn't wipe out the enemies of my people.

• 1:53:08Speaker 02

  You see the God of the Old Testament doesn't want the enemies of Israel to be destroyed. A very timely message for today. He wants all peoples to be saved. I want you to see this Old Testament. The God of the Old Testament says, "I don't want the nations surrounding Israel to be destroyed. I want them to turn to be saved because I created them and I love them. They're my creatures. Don't you dare look down upon them because they're not an Israelite." Jonah's the one who wanted to wipe them out. But then God gives him a lesson, a parable. It's scorching heat, if you read it, and we won't need to read all of it, but just... And then he makes a gourd miraculously to give him shade, and he's like, "Ah, comfort it."

• 1:53:50Speaker 02

  Then he commands a creeping, crawling thing to nod, and it withers away overnight. And then it says that the heat pounded him, and he's like, "God, let me die from this heat." Now look what God says, look. We're gonna read from verse 8. "When the sun rose, God provided scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah's head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die and said, 'It would be better for me to die than to live,' because of the heat." Now watch verse 9. "But God said to Jonah, 'Is it right for you to be angry about the plant? You're concerned that a plant die, huh? A plant? But you didn't give a damn that over 100,000 people were gonna die? You had more concern for a plant than a human soul created in my image?" That's what he says. Right? "Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?" "It is," he said.

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  "And I'm so angry, I wish I was dead, because it was, you know, shielding me from the heat." "But the Lord said, 'You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight.'" Now watch. "And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than 120,000 people, who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and also many animals? You didn't want me to care for them? Because they're your enemies, but doesn't mean they're my enemies. Don't make your enemies my enemy. Just like I created the plant, I own it, I created them. And I didn't create them for destruction, I created them to live."

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  See, this is the heart of God. This is God. So when I tell you what he did to the Ninevites, it's not because he hated them. Because God does it to all peoples. He even did it to the Israelites. Their judgment was they were exiled out of the land. The first time, and the second time because of rejection of Jesus said it. Because you rejected me, I'm gonna reject you. Temple will be destroyed, land will be destroyed. For over nineteen hundred years. They were left in exile. What sin does the Bible say they committed that would have resulted? In them being exiled for over nineteen hundred years because the sin that resulted in destruction of the first temple? It says, bloodshed, immorality, idolatry. So then he brought the Babylonians, right?

• 1:56:02Speaker 02

  Started around 604, first deportation at 597, then 586. They burned the temple and destroyed Jerusalem. But he returned them seventy years. So no matter how great their sin was, it only lasted seventy years. But whatever sin they committed during the second temple was so heinous that God scattered them for nineteen hundred years. That means their sin during that period was greater than their sin in the first period. Now, what's the point I'm trying to show you? God does to Israel what it'll do to the nations. See, he's impartial, unbiased, and fair. Just because you say you're an Israelite doesn't mean I'm going to wink or look over your sin. No, all of you are my creatures, and I'm gonna hold you more accountable. Do you know why? Because they don't know me, you do.

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  That's what he says in Amos, chapter three. So I'm gonna give Bible here. If they want to argue with me, say, hey, Amos, can you rewrite this? I don't like what you said. In Amos, chapter three, verse one or two. He says to Israel, of all the families on the earth, I only know you. And that's why I'm gonna punish you for your sins. Amos, chapter three. Here's the word that the Lord hath spoken against you, oh, children of Israel. Against you, oh, children of Israel. Against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, you only have I known of all the families of the earth. Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities. No, I'm not gonna give you a free pass. Your judgment's gonna be worse than the Assyrians about who don't know me. See, this is the God of the Old Testament. So why did he destroy Nineveh? Because sadly...

• 1:57:31Speaker 02

  God doesn't have grandchildren. So you can claim the faith, but the faith is yours. It's not your child. Unless he believes and continues, your blessing won't be your child's blessing. Because if he turns from the Lord, then that generation will be in wrath. So although the generation of Jonah repented, the next generation went back to their polytheistic paganism. God says, "Now I have to scatter you." So number one, they were scattered because God only tolerates so much sin before he brings judgment on a nation and replaces them. This is in Scripture. I can show you. It says, "Look, why didn't he, for example, why didn't he drive out the Canaanites at the time of Abraham? He says it, because the sin of the Amorite has not been made complete.

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  If you go to Genesis 15, 16, he says, "I'm waiting for their debt ceiling to hit." Genesis 15, 16, it says it. If you can open up, Genesis 15, 16. So he waited 400 years. Now, that tells you the mercy and compassion of God. So Genesis 15, 16, and the four generation, meaning four hundred years in the context, it's four generations, 100 years. Your dead sons will come back here, "For the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure." Warning, there's so much sin I'll tolerate from a nation, but I'll wait patiently to see if you're gonna turn. But he's already telling them, he won't. They won't. But I'm a fair God. I don't just rush to judgment because I don't want anyone to be destroyed. It's gonna take them 400 years when I say enough is enough. I'm done. I can't handle this.

• 1:59:01Speaker 02

  400 years, you know what that means? Each generation of children grew up to be just as wicked as the generation before. And if you want to know their atrocities, he mentions it in Leviticus 18. Leviticus 18, he tells them, "This is what the people did in the land, and that's why the land is throwing them out." And he says, "Israel, if you do the same, I'll do the same to you." And he says what they did: bestiality, incest, homosexuality, infanticide. He goes, "Because of these sins that I put up with for 400 years, I'm disgusted. They gotta go. But I'm gonna evict you if you do the same thing." It's in Leviticus 18. So this is the context of the punishment of all the nations. But who comes first on the list of punishment? The Israelites. Why? Because...

• 1:59:47Speaker 02

  The greater the blessing, the greater the accountability. The more you know, the more you're accountable. So if the Assyrians didn't know God like Israel did, yeah, they'll be punished. But who do you think is going to be punished more severely? If you have two sons, and you instruct one son not to do something, but you didn't tell the other one. And they both do the thing you don't want, you'll be angry with both, but who you'll be angry with more? The one you told, right? God is selling Israel, you're the ones who are making me more angry than any other nation. Because you know better, they don't, and you're supposed to influence them, but what you're doing is, you're driving them away from me. How are they driving people away from God? When you go worship their God, you know what you're telling them? My God is not a big deal, because if he was, I wouldn't be worshiping yours.

• 2:00:32Speaker 02

  I like your God better. So when you do that, what are you telling them? That I'm a God that doesn't compare to theirs. So this is why he destroys the Nivah, but now...

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  Why? Well, it's the opposite. Even though we don't have a land, the fact that we haven't wiped out is a testament of God's goodness to us. We survived, brothers, we've survived impossible odds. Not only did we live under the yoke of Rome, then later there came the Zoroastrians. A lot of people don't know that in the 5th century, even the church at large ostracized us. They condemned us as heretics. So when I say us, because the church of our ancestors, what do I mean? This is going to be related to your questions, I have to unpack this. In the 400s, because of Nestorius, remember I mentioned Nestorius? Because he was accused of teaching there are two persons of Christ. The Assyrians were now identified with that teaching.

• 2:01:26Speaker 02

  So the church at large says, "You are heretics, you're not Christians, the hell with you." So now, we didn't have the backing of the Byzantine Empire.

• 2:01:35Speaker 02

  But we're under the duress of the Persian Empire. Then Islam rises, so we had it bad from every angle. So now I'm going to ask you, how do we survive against impossible odds if Christ wasn't preserving our people?

• 2:01:49Speaker 02

  Do you know at one time in history, the largest church in the world was the Assyrian Church of the East? This is a fact.

• 2:01:56Speaker 02

  We reached all the way to China. They even found Aramaic script, Syrac script, that is attributed to the Nestorian Church. But Nestorian Church is the church of your ancestors, my ancestors. This is a testimony that God has not abandoned Assyria. Because if he did, you wouldn't be here as an Assyrian, speaking your Assyrian mother tongue, and the Assyrian church would have been wiped out of the planet.

• 2:02:19Patrick Bet-David?

  So what are the likelihood that Assyrians get their country back in the middle of Iraq, similar to what Israel did? What's the likelihood?

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  Ah, you're talking to a guy who's very pessimistic.

• 2:02:30Patrick Bet-David?

  How was your relationship? I saw you and, because we had Marmari here, we had you, and we had Wonderful, and we had Janko here. It was a great conversation. I'm trying to find a way to put a leadership-type event together for Assyrians to come together. What happened with you and Janko?

• 2:02:51Speaker 02

  Well, I don't, because your platform is huge, and the way people want to find out details, they can't. But I want to say something, and I know George is going to listen to it. Two things about George. He's Christian, and he's Assyrian, and because of that, I love him. More so, I love him because he's Christian. You can be a Christian, not a sin, and I love you. He is a passionate young man. He reminds me of me over 20 years ago, when, because I didn't have, I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm just saying, I didn't have someone to disciple me, and I was just learning and growing in my faith. Right? So, and I became very passionate. See, there's something we call the beginner's zeal, where you think you've discovered something, and you become so zealous, you want to convert the world.

• 2:03:35Speaker 02

  But in so doing, you do more damage than good. That was me. That was me. Back then, that was me. I did a lot of damage, because I thought I knew better. "Hey, man, you're pagan, what are you doing? Hey, what you got?" I didn't know, but my intention was sincere. George is a bright young man, who loves Jesus Christ, and he's going to grow and be on fire for the Lord. But we got to give him time.

• 2:03:59Speaker 02

  Just give him time. Because only God knows what kind of knowledge you'll have when he's 53. Remember, I'm 53. So, give him some time. There was a misunderstanding, and that's fine.

• 2:04:11Patrick Bet-David?

  Have you guys spoken since, or no?

• 2:04:12Speaker 02

  Not really spoken, but I wouldn't mind speaking to him, because I have no animus towards him. I can't, for two reasons. Number one, because he's Christian.

• 2:04:20Patrick Bet-David?

  What was the issue?

• 2:04:22Speaker 02

  The issue was about, you know, the traditions of the church. Because if my journey is very complex, I came out of...

• 2:04:27Patrick Bet-David?

  Purely over traditions, that's all it is.

• 2:04:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, uh... These traditions that these ancient churches hold to. You know, like the Eucharist becoming the body and blood of Christ, or Mary perpetual virginity. Why do you guys believe it's not in the Bible? See, that's where I was 20 years ago. One thing I can tell you, guys, this is a fact.

• 2:04:46Speaker 02

  The more you study church history, the more you're going to see. This is a fact, before God I will answer, if I'm lying. The ancient churches that have been there from the beginning, and I want to tell you, the change of church, Catholic church, I know that's demonized by the world. I don't care what the world thinks. Syrian church, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, these churches have been there from the beginning. And the fullness of the truth, the correct application Christianity is found in these churches. Sadly, they're in schism. I came to that conclusion studying church history, meaning the second, third, fourth centuries of what Christians taught. I was shocked. It troubled me, and people who know me can testify.

• 2:05:28Speaker 02

  I had a dilemma in my hand. Either all of these Christians were heretics, which would be blasphemy. Because that means Jesus failed the church, and that's blasphemy. Christ said he'd be building his church. The Spirit would be guiding the church. And the apostles would appoint leaders filled up the Spirit to preserve the truth. And Christ taught this will be an unbroken chain. So, they cannot be false teachers, because that means then Christ failed. That means they were the true Christians. But then they taught stuff that, as a Protestant, I was taught are false heretical doctrines. So, that led me in one or two of them. Either they're false teachers, and it's happening, or my teachings are not ancient, not biblical, because we're misunderstanding the Bible.

• 2:06:13Speaker 02

  And so it took me 10 years to want to just say, you know what? I gotta go back to the ancient churches. And so that shocks a lot of people when you're taught sola scriptura, totus scriptura.

• 2:06:21Patrick Bet-David?

  That's the pure conflict.

• 2:06:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:23Patrick Bet-David?

  That's it.

• 2:06:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:24Patrick Bet-David?

  There's nothing more than that.

• 2:06:24Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:06:25Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah, I'm a big fan of him. Very big fan of him.

• 2:06:28Speaker 02

  God bless him and preserve him.

• 2:06:28Patrick Bet-David?

  And I'm a big fan of you. Uh, I think he is an incredibly, uh, you, because when you think about the Assyrian community and you think about Avengers, you said something very interesting earlier, which I fully agree with. You said, you know, if I want to debate an atheist, I'm the wrong guy. Bring somebody else because I don't know nothing about athe- I didn't study atheism. But if you bring me against Muslims Quran, I've studied it. I'm a good guy to come in, but I've know guys that are, uh, millionaire Christians who know nothing about the Bible and I know, you know, that whole thing that you're talking about, right? This is a, this is a guy that was mainstream youth with Logan Paul in that entire community

• 2:07:09Patrick Bet-David?

  as an Assyrian guy who chooses to, chooses his faith over fame, walks away, does his thing and is doing his best to be amicable with everybody. I'm, I'm so impressed by him, him and his wife, what they're doing.

• 2:07:22Speaker 02

  Praise the Lord.

• 2:07:22Patrick Bet-David?

  And then with you, I, I, I see you as a, as an animal. You're a very unique animal, very, uh, extremely necessary.

• 2:07:32Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 2:08:03Speaker 12

  Build your front end, back end and product logic in one place with Base44. Describe what you're building and how it should work. You build the interface and the logic behind it in the same place, including authentication, backend and hosting. Then go deeper. Define access levels or connect an external API using plain language to build and iterate. Spend less time assembling infrastructure and more time getting your product live. Go to base44.com.

• 2:08:33Speaker 02

  Because I'm shaped like a buffalo, is that what you're saying?

• 2:08:35Patrick Bet-David?

  No, man, there's something very different about you. There's something very different about you that you're a complicated human being. No, no, you're very complex. Because when I publicly said I want to bring you on, I wish you could see what text messages I get, what things people send me. You have to watch this video. You sure you want to have this gun? Do you know what happened when it has passed? Do you know what's going on? All this stuff that's sent my way, right? And I get it. I mean, you know, I'm not, you know, this guy's not a representation of this, that guy's not a representation of this. Listen, I don't know why God uses complex human beings to do the impossible. I don't know why, but he's always done that.

• 2:09:20Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay, if you would have told me, you know, who's going to be the guy that's going to go up against the establishment? It's going to be a guy like Trump? I would have said, you know, you're out of your mind. But he chose him. Okay, is he a man of faith? Is he going to go out there and, you know, sit with you in a conversation about Bible and he's going to be able to hang? No, that's not him. Is he a guy that's going to be? No, but watch what he's doing right now with all the different dealings. I think he chooses complex people. And I think you're a complicated individual yourself, but brilliant. Those two typically go together. You look like you want to say something.

• 2:09:52Speaker 02

  No, I want to comment. The Bible pretty much tells you why he does that. So no man becomes a center of attention but Christ. The Bible says he takes broken vessels so that people know the power is not in you, it's from God. Because God does the impossible with individuals that no one would think would be possible that they could be used. So he can get the glory. This is in 1 Corinthians 1, 18 and 31. Says it right there. 1 Corinthians 1, 18 and 31. God wants to show his glory by taking humans who are oppressed, rejected, looked down upon, so that people know that can't be him. There's something in him that's doing it, driving, so he gets the glory.

• 2:10:34Speaker 02

  So that not only does he get the glory, but no man becomes an idol. So this is what has been disgusting me on. On the social media, everyone who has some type of gifting, in the eyes of others, draws a cult following. And this is wicked and evil on the side of God. God doesn't want cult of personality, he doesn't want idols. He wants you not to focus on the person because he's going to disappoint, I'll disappoint you, right? In fact, even now, as you're talking about it, as I said, coming to this broadcast, I've never been attacked spiritually in my life than prior to the same event. Stuff of my past, my ex-wife lies and slander being used to discredit me. That hasn't happened to me in years. There's something about you

• 2:11:18Speaker 02

  and your, that Satan came after me. I got so tired, I almost wanted to give in and say, man, maybe I shouldn't be here. It was that bad. So the warfare is real because we are imperfect. In fact, if you read the Bible, the greatest characters of the Bible are some of the worst sinners imaginable. You go look at David. David committed adultery, murdered the man to cover up his sin. Go look at Solomon. Go look at it. Because God is telling you, look, your eyes shouldn't be on them. They're flesh like you, they'll disappoint you. Your eyes be on me, who works through sinners to give you hope, that if this sinner can be forgiven and be used, I can use you to. And secondly, as long as you keep your eye on me, I will exalt you. But if you exalt yourself, I will have to

• 2:12:03Speaker 02

  humble you, because I'm not putting you in the business to have people be your followers. I'm putting you in the business to make them followers of Jesus Christ. And I'm going to give you a principle from 2 Corinthians, what Paul says. He was afraid he was getting puffed up. Because Paul was a super apostle. He did more, he says it, I've done more miracles than the other apostle. He wasn't boasting. And I reached more people. But then he says something, this is why he's my hero. When I read Paul, man, he's my hero. I can't hold his sandals. And he was a maggot in comparison to Christ. But look what he says in 2 Corinthians 12. So when I, I mean, the man, he just wanted to be forgotten and wanted

• 2:12:42Speaker 02

  everyone to see Jesus. He didn't want you to focus on him. Stop focusing on me. Focus in on the Lord who loves me and saved me and gave me what I deserve here. 2 Corinthians 12.

• 2:12:55Speaker 02

  Look at 6 to 10, what he says. Now, he's talking about the context as he's talking about a man, and he's talking about himself, by the way, but he's talking about him as third person because he doesn't want attention. He goes, "I know a man, whether in the body or not, I don't know if he, I left my body or my body, who 14 years earlier was caught up to the third heaven, paradise again. It's him, but he doesn't want to say it's him. And he, but he doesn't know, did God take me in my body? Or is it an out of body experience? It doesn't matter. He saw inexpressible things, things that cannot be expressed. Now, look what he says. He gives it away, basically. "For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool, for I will speak the truth." But I refrain, here's the key.

• 2:13:36Speaker 02

  "Lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me." See that line right there? "I don't want anyone to make me a superstar. So I fear when I tell you the things I've done, you're gonna idolize me. I don't want you to idolize me. See, that's why I have to be careful what I say, lest I impress you to focus on me and I will disappoint you." That's what he's saying. I don't know of any Christian, myself, I disappointed so many people. I don't know if I'm right. I always think I'm right, and they're wrong, but that's the other side too. They're right. We're just biased. Yeah. Now, watch what he says. "Why do sometimes God allows you to struggle with demons?" Here's the wisdom of God. "Unless I should be exalted above measure

• 2:14:20Speaker 02

  by the abundance of revelation." Meaning, "Unless I thought I was a super Christian, because I was getting so much revelation, more than Peter and John. "Lest I feel, look, look at me, I'm the man. So when people tell me I'm brilliant, it's not, I'm trying to be fake humble. I don't want to believe it, because I'm afraid I'll get puffed up." Mm-hmm. You see that? Mm-hmm. Because the same gift that God gave me, you can take it away. But here, I want to, not believe, I want to finish this. "A thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan, to buffet me lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing, I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me." God, I can't handle this. Remove this agent of Satan. He doesn't tell us how Satan's attacking him, but Satan attacks. But he doesn't tell us how. Was it a disease? He doesn't say. Yeah. He goes, "But God, I can't handle it."

• 2:15:05Speaker 02

  Look at Jesus' response. I pleaded with the Lord three times, pardon me. And he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness." Now, the depth of that one statement. "My favor is all you need to endure. I'm not going to deliver you, but I won't let it consume you. I will preserve you through it, but I'm not going to take you out of it." You know why? Because I want you to know you're nothing without me. When you realize how weak you are, then you're going to appreciate it's my power, it's not you. That's the wisdom of Christ. And that's why he says, "Therefore, most gladly, I will boast in my infirmities." I won't talk about how great I am, I'm going to talk about how weak and wicked and useless I am. Why?

• 2:15:49Speaker 02

  So that you know it's the power of Christ that's giving me the grace to do this. Therefore, I take pleasure in infirmities and reproaches and needs and persecutions and distresses, for Christ's sake, for when I am weak, then I am strong, then I know where my strength lies. Not in me, not in my money, not in my political connections. That's all going to go. But if you have Jesus, that's forever. See, this is why sometimes we go through hell to remind you, "Hey, Patrick, get off that horse." I'm not saying, but get off that horse. You are what you are because I was pleased to put you in the right circumstances. But I can't take it away like this.

• 2:16:19Patrick Bet-David?

  I fully believe that. This was great. I wish I had more time. I got 11:30 meeting I got to run to, the guys are texting me. I would like to do another one with you because I probably have 20 other topics I haven't gone into. But this was, this was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. Where can people? I do think you're on Menek now. Did you guys talk about Menek?

• 2:16:39Speaker 02

  They want to set me up on that.

• 2:16:40Patrick Bet-David?

  Okay, so we're going to put the link below for Menek. I'm sure a lot of people are going to want to talk to you. And then where would you like people to go to to learn more about you?

• 2:16:48Speaker 02

  That's a good question. If they can handle political incorrectness and a lot of back and forth, they can go to Shemunian. S-H-A-M-O-U-N-I-A-N. Like I said, it's going to be a lot of-

• 2:16:58Patrick Bet-David?

  Is it a website or YouTube?

• 2:16:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's YouTube channel. But like I said, a lot of controversial issues, things coming up that unfortunately has to come up. But there it is. See that Fester? That's my twin brother right there.

• 2:17:08Speaker 09

  Is it really?

• 2:17:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:17:09Speaker 09

  I'm joking.

• 2:17:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 2:17:11Patrick Bet-David?

  Put the link below, Rob, for folks to go learn more about you. I look forward to our next one.

• 2:17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:18Patrick Bet-David?

  Truly, I look forward to it.

• 2:17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:19Patrick Bet-David?

  This was an amazing conversation. I'm so glad we did it. I'm glad you kept your word and came down. Because I know we've been trying to do this for a long time.

• 2:17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, but thank the Lord. And if you have more questions, I'm here tomorrow or whatever day.

• 2:17:29Patrick Bet-David?

  No, we'll figure it out.

• 2:17:30Speaker 02

  As long as Vinnie's here doing stand-up comedy, but sitting down, brother.

• 2:17:33Speaker 09

  I will.

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  All right.

• 2:17:34Patrick Bet-David?

  Take care, everybody. Bye-bye, bye-bye.

• 2:17:36Speaker 09

  Hey, guys, Vincent O'Shaughnessy here. I recently released a new shirt for my faith-based line, Faith Over Fear. There's a cross on the front and Hebrews Chapter 11, Verse 1 on the back. As Christians, we've never seen Jesus face to face, but we believe. That's what having true faith is, trusting when we can't see. And if you walk by faith, you have absolutely nothing to fear. Go to VTmerch.com, pick up a shirt. We have hoodies. We even have a female line. Rock the shirt, rock it with purpose, and let the world know who you stand with. Peace and love.

• 2:18:06Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 2:18:36Speaker 13

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