The Forbidden City

At the heart of Beijing sits the Forbidden City, one of the greatest architectural achievements in human history. It's the largest palace complex on Earth. Constructed in the early 15th century as the hidden heart of imperial power, it was a city within a city — sealed off from the world, governed by rigid ritual, political intrigue, and absolute authority. How did a daring coup bring this colossal complex into existence? What was daily life really like behind its towering walls? And, how did it endure revolution, the rise and fall of dynasties, and catastrophe to become a symbol of China itself? Dan travels to the heart of Beijing to reveal its extraordinary story. You can learn more in Dan's History Hit TV documentary 'Beijing Central Axis: China's Medieval Wonder'. Sign up to watch at: https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. Produced by Mariana Des Forges and edited by Dougal Patmore You can email the podcast at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Snow?

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• 2:11Dan Snow?

  For centuries, this was the sound of Beijing. For the better part of 600 years, these mighty drums that surround me now in the upper story of the old Drum Tower kept time and did so across multiple dynasties. The drums signaled the start of the night watch and the changing of the guard. And so it remained until well into the 20th century, when western timekeeping took their place.

• 2:42Dan Snow?

  Today, the drums can still be heard. They're less functional now and more for ceremony, an ancient rhythm beating at the heart of a very modern city. And I really mean at the heart, because if you've ever been to Beijing, you'll know that nestled in its centre, surrounded by soaring skyscrapers and bright LED billboards, and densely packed neighbourhoods, lies the most extraordinary historic core. Laid out along a grand central axis, the Drum Tower where I am now is at one end, and the imposing Yongjingmen Gate, flanked by its carved stone lions at the other. In between them, at the very heart of the city, stands the largest palace complex in

• 3:27Dan Snow?

  the world, a place from which for centuries China's emperors ruled from behind impenetrable walls. This was a grand, mysterious court of ritual and ceremony, a place of political intrigue and brilliant ideas, of family rivalries, of love and death. This was a place where China's dynasties rose and fell, a place where modern China was forged.

• 3:58Dan Snow?

  You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit, and in today's episode, I'm in Beijing to uncover the story of the Forbidden City, China's imperial palace.

• 4:28Dan Snow?

  So I've come to the Jing Shan Park now, that sits between the Drum Tower and the Forbidden City, on that monumental line of imperial buildings that runs north-south through the heart of old Beijing. We think there's been a garden here since the 12th century, but it was really built up from the 15th century by the Ming and then the Qing, who occupied the city from then on. It was their backyard, literally, until the 1920s. This is where they had imperial ceremonies, and they would have quite literally lifted themselves up above the common people of China, this vantage point, this artificial hill towering above the city, from the top of which they could see out across the old city and their palace. They, I mean, you know, call me a revolutionary, but I think it's great that normal people have been allowed in, like me and my producer Mariana de Forj.

• 5:12Dan Snow?

  There's beautiful lots of trees, there's old people doing their qigong and doing their stretches, there are young people babbling away into their phones, there are middle-aged people babbling into their phones sadly as well, me. And the reason I am babbling into my phone is because I've come here to meet Dr Jeremiah Jenny. He called Beijing home for many years, he taught Chinese history here, you'll remember him from previous episodes of the pod about Terracotta Warriors and the Opium Wars. And we must have given him the taste for it, because he now has his own podcast by their own compass, so please check that out. Jeremiah, great to see you, man. Tell me about the occupation of Beijing, how far back does it go to settlement?

• 5:47Speaker 03

  Beijing is the capital of China today. But it's a really unusual place to have a capital city in modern times, never mind in previous eras, because it's one of the few capitals that doesn't sit on a major body of water. So why even have a city here? A lot of it has to do with Beijing's position compared to the rest of Chinese civilization. We look at a map of China today, Beijing kind of looks like it's in the middle or the northern third, but in fact, for much of Chinese history, this was a frontier outpost. It was the last stop before you crossed these mountains just to the north of Beijing. If you've ever been driving down the highway and you see a sign saying "Last stop for petrol, 150 kilometres", There really wasn't a sign outside of the cities in this spot that said,

• 6:32Speaker 03

  "Last stop of civilization for as far as you can walk," but there might as well have been. And so for much of the city's history, for as long as there's been people here, and there's been a city that we know of in this spot going back about 3,000 years. But for the first 2,000 or so of these years, it was maybe a regionally important city, but mostly it was a place where you'd gather your trade goods together, and you would head out to the pass. If you went left, those were the Silk Roads. Or in later dynasties, it was a place where you would gather your military together before you would head out these mountain passes, go right, and try to invade Korea, which was a favorite pastime of several earlier emperors. So if we think about Beijing being this frontier city, it really is interesting that the people from outside this frontier are the ones who put Beijing on the map as a capital.

• 7:16Speaker 03

  Beginning with a group called the Khitan in about the 11th century, and then they were replaced in the 12th century by another group from outside the frontier called the Jin. And both of these groups had come in, they had conquered progressively larger sections of North China. And for them, where we are right now, and what's today Beijing, this wasn't the last stop out for civilization, it was the first step in. And so they established capitals in this spot. And of course, the Khitan and the Jin were replaced by an even more famous group, and that was of course the Mongols, under first Genghis Khan and then his descendants. And his descendant Kublai Khan, when he established himself as the ruler over a vast area, including what's today China,

• 7:59Speaker 03

  he decided to move his capital to this spot. He built his capital right here as well. And that's really the beginnings of Beijing, the city that we visit today. The Mongols hadn't really been an urban civilization. How did they choose to build this new city? How'd they lay it out? So if you look at the footprint, you have the rectangular walls, you have the broad boulevards, the avenues, the gates, the palace in the middle, all very proper. But then also in the middle of that palace, you have large, open courtyards where they set up giant felt tents and yurts, structures that they're a little bit more comfortable with than, say, drafty palaces and things like that.

• 8:36Dan Snow?

  The Mongols occupied Beijing for roughly 150 years, until the mid-fourteenth century, when they were ousted by a Chinese group from the south, the Ming, who sacked the Mongol capital, then known as Dàdu. But when the Ming took control of their first emperor Hongwu, didn't establish his dynastic capital in the sacked ruins, instead, he moved it south, back to his home, to where the modern-day city of Nanjing now stands. Hongwu Emperor governed with an iron fist. He rebuilt the economy, he strengthened the military, he consolidated Ming authority after decades of foreign rule. But at the end of the fourteenth century, his successors quarrelled between themselves.

• 9:20Dan Snow?

  There was a vicious civil war within the family, and his southern capital was destroyed. His fourth son, Zhu Di, his skilful general, based on the northern frontier, well, he emerged victorious. He established himself on the throne in 1402 and took the name Yongle. It was a new century and a new era for the Ming.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  And so this new emperor Yongle decides, if I'm going to rebuild, and I have to rebuild, why don't I rebuild where my power base has long been? And his power base had long been in the north. And so he chooses to rebuild his capital on top of the old Mongolian capital, what had been the city of Dàdu, now Beijing. And Nanjing was demoted to secondary capital.

• 10:05Dan Snow?

  And how does he change a city?

• 10:07Speaker 03

  So, the act of building a capital, it establishes, you hope, this idea that you've received the mandate of heaven. You're not just a usurper, but you're the emperor, and it's been recognised by heaven, earth and humanity. And so one of the first things you're going to have to do is to rebuild the palace.

• 10:27Dan Snow?

  The Yongle Emperor set his sights on something monumental, a vast imperial palace anchored at the heart of an eight-kilometre north-south spine of royal landmarks, what we now call Beijing's central axis. In the fifteenth century, a project on that scale was staggering. To grasp the sheer ambition of it, Jeremiah is taking me to the Beijing Planning Exhibition Hall, home to an extraordinary scale model of Beijing that stretches across the floor of a vast atrium. So Jeremiah, you have brought me to this museum now and you promised that as a fellow model and map fan I was going to like this place and I am freaking out now. Describe what we've got here. It's about 20, 30 metres long?

• 11:08Speaker 03

  That's right. So what we have here is a model of the central axis of Beijing to scale, more or less. And you see all the major sites along the central axis, starting from the Yongding Gate at the far end, the southern end, through to what's today Tiananmen Square, the Forbidden City, the hill just north of the Forbidden City, Jing Shan, and then finally, originally ending at the two towers, the drum and bell tower that used to keep time in the imperial city.

• 11:35Dan Snow?

  So talk to me about the development of the axis. The Yongle Emperor, is he building on something that's gone before or is this a new idea?

• 11:41Speaker 03

  In some ways, the shapes of the walls, not quite as large, but more or less in the same place. The palace, the Forbidden City, more or less in the same place as Kublai Khan's palace, as far as we know.

• 11:54Dan Snow?

  So he's very much renewing what was already there and that includes presumably this idea of a central axis?

• 11:58Speaker 03

  That's right. So the central axis goes back to at least the idea of Kublai Khan's Dadi or Great Capital. And we can see on models and maps of that, an axis very similar to this one. Although, almost all the buildings, if not all the buildings, on the current central axis do date from the Ming period or the slightly later Qing Dynasty. We're talking about the 16th, 17th, 18th century. So what you ultimately have is this palace at the heart of this new capital, situated on this north-south axis. One of the guidelines they would use for sighting a palace, sighting an axis was of course, the North Star, Polaris. Ritual texts would say you had to do a sight line at night about the North Star. And in

• 12:40Speaker 03

  the Chinese cosmology, the North Star, everything revolves around the North Star in the heavens. This is the terrestrial equivalent, because all will orbit around the power of the emperor here in his palace.

• 12:54Dan Snow?

  And this grand palace became known as the Forbidden City. With its 9,999 rooms, allegedly, it is the largest palace complex in the world, still today.

• 13:07Speaker 03

  So between 1406 and 1421, it took about 16 years or so. Over 100,000 craftsmen, architects, and over 1 million laborers participated in the construction of these palaces. And what I find most interesting about that, thinking of modern logistics, is the first 10 years or so, there really wasn't any actual construction being done. It was all about bringing the materials here, the wood, the marble, everything that was needed, putting it in place, and then putting it all together.

• 13:39Dan Snow?

  Are they deliberately bringing products in from all over the empire to symbolize the oneness of the empire here?

• 13:45Speaker 03

  I think that might be some of it, but a lot of it is just they want the best of the best. And if they can source it locally, they will. But even though a lot of the best stone can be quarried in North China, where Beijing is located, it's still not in the immediate area around Beijing. So you still have this need to move impossibly heavy and impossibly large numbers of materials great distances. If it's wood, one of the great things about it, you float it down the river. And so wood can be transported a little bit easier than, say, stone. For stone, they had to get creative.

• 14:18Dan Snow?

  Did that involve dragging?

• 14:20Speaker 03

  When I take students to the Forbidden City, I always put the problem to them. You're an engineer in the Ming Dynasty, you have to move a 200-ton block of stone intact to the Forbidden City or to the building site. How do you do it? And the students always say, well, you have all these people, just have them drag it. I'm like, they just can't do that. So you have to reduce friction. And so one of the things that they would do to bring the stones to the Forbidden City or any major building site, they would do it in the winter.

• 14:47Dan Snow?

  No way.

• 14:48Speaker 03

  So either along frozen canals, or where canals wouldn't work, you would flood the road, let it freeze, and push it along these ice roads to move these incredible chunks of building materials great distances. And this era, the Ming Dynasty, is famous for its building projects. We think, of course, of the modern Great Wall. And one of the reasons why this is able to be done is because of the industrial production of materials beginning in the Ming Dynasty. You also have a very developed system of, at least at first, corvee labor that allows you to put a lot of manpower, a lot of human power into these projects.

• 15:26Dan Snow?

  It's like conscription, but not for the military, but for engineering projects.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, you pay your taxes through labor. And that was the way it was, at least in the earliest days of the Ming Dynasty. It is true when you look at places like the Forbidden City and you think to yourself, it is amazing what you can do if you have some of the best minds of the empire, some of the best materials in the empire, and an endless supply of inexpensive, non-union labor. It's amazing what you can accomplish.

• 15:52Dan Snow?

  And I suppose there was an ambition that would last a long time, and indeed it has.

• 15:57Speaker 03

  There's an idea that the site would be eternal. But one of the interesting things about the Forbidden City, and this is true of a lot of sites in China, the site is meant to be eternal. The buildings themselves are replaceable. And the idea is that many of the buildings are built with wooden columns. They're supporting great wooden beams, but wood will eventually wear out, and that's okay.

• 16:19Dan Snow?

  How long did it take to build this astonishing place?

• 16:21Speaker 03

  So the Forbidden City would have been constructed beginning around 1406. Construction ended around 1420, and it officially, if you will, opened in 1421. Although the grand opening was marred somewhat when, that same year, a lightning bolt struck the main ritual... They say it was lightning bolt. It caught on fire. The main ritual hall, what's today called the Hall of Supreme Harmony, burned down, which, if you're into cosmologic omens, and let's just say that the Chinese emperors were, that's not a particularly auspicious beginning.

• 16:58Dan Snow?

  But it's very striking, because 15 years isn't far off what a massive infrastructure build would take today. I mean, that wouldn't be unusual. So it's fascinating, isn't it, how we might have replaced humans with machines, but it's similar sort of timeframes.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  And the way it was built too, Dan, it's actually hard to replicate in the modern day, because many, most in fact, of these wooden structures, they're put together without nails, screws, metal brackets. It's all perfectly cut beams, brackets, columns, that are then put together, all made of wood, and they then all fit together perfectly.

• 17:36Dan Snow?

  When this enormous construction project was finally finished in 1421, there was astonishing procession. You can just imagine it swept the Yongle Emperor alongside his family and his court, his government, all the way up to the Forbidden City, to the Imperial Palace, and they were installed inside. They took up residence. I'm just entering now the first of these gigantic courtyards. And all around me, I can see these beautiful yellow roofs. The colour yellow was exclusively for use on imperial buildings. And if you look closely at the designs on these buildings, you can see the blue lapis lazuli. And you can see dragons, lots of dragons everywhere, the symbol of the imperial family. There's certain dragons with the right number of claws. They were reserved for the emperor himself.

• 18:19Dan Snow?

  And as you go further into the Forbidden City, you get to the grand central halls of the throne room, for example, which has got something like 13,000 dragons inside and out. The scale of this place is unimaginable, 980 buildings, something like 10,000 rooms, 720,000 square metres. You can fit Buckingham Palace into this site five times. It's said to be the most visited historic site in the world, something like 40,000 people a day. That's twice the number of people that visit the Colosseum in Rome. And on this freezing cold November day, it is already absolutely rammed with people.

• 19:01Dan Snow?

  Many of the women have obviously spent hours in wardrobe, hair and makeup, because like a significant proportion of them, dressed in Qing Dynasty outfits. Hair, headgear and makeup perfectly set. The costumes rented nearby, lots of stunning colours, lots of fur-lined garments, lots of Instagram boyfriends trailing along beside them, loaded down with photographic equipment. There's some content going to get produced here today. And I'm pleased to say that my superficial impression of this place is now going to be massively added on to by a conversation with Matthew Hu. He is a Chinese cultural heritage preservationist and expert,

• 19:44Dan Snow?

  and he's going to help me really understand what exactly is going on here.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  Matthew, how are you? Very good, thank you. Very good to see you. Yeah, very good to see you too. So it was originally called the Purple Forbidden City, as I understand it. What's the significance of that?

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Well, because Asian Chinese would like to believe that the Asian emperors, they were bequested with this power to rule the world because they represent this master principle defined by the constellations in the sky. And there are three groups of constellations in the middle of the heaven, and the middle one of the three is called a purple constellation. So that's where the god of heaven reside, as his heavenly palace. So the Chinese emperor, no matter which dynasty, they always consider themselves as the son of the heaven.

• 20:46Speaker 04

  So as the son of heaven, will never they build their own palaces. They would like to build a earthly mirror reflection of that heavenly palace. So that's why they call it the Purple Forbidden City. You enter through a magnificent gate, you are greeted with the river that flows, and what's the importance of the water there? It's actually both symbolic and also functional. The functional side of the water canal was to provide very important sources of water in case of fire, because most of the buildings were made of wood. In fact, the whole Supreme Harmony has been burned down four or five times over history.

• 21:31Speaker 04

  So the one we saw today is the fifth or sixth version of it. But the symbolic aspect of that water canal is that if you look from above, it looks like a bowl, the shape of a archery bowl. So you will see five bridges. These marble bridges symbolizing five arrows shooting to the earthly world that governed by this heavenly sun. And each arrow symbolizing one virtue that has been for many centuries embraced by Confucianism.

• 22:10Speaker 04

  So like benevolence, for example, so that's one of the five virtues. So you need to be good to your people, so that the world will be in harmony. So that's the whole purpose of why they eventually named the main hall of the palace as the Hall of Supreme Harmony. So that's really an art of keeping balance.

• 22:32Dan Snow?

  So you go across that canal. Would you say the heart of the Forbidden City is the building that's raised highest of all? And that is what we call now the Hall of Supreme Harmony?

• 22:41Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 22:42Dan Snow?

  What happened in there?

• 22:43Speaker 04

  That's the place where the emperor had his court audience. Traditionally, that's supposed to be a throne hall. So there's a golden throne in the middle of the palace. It's paved with this kind of golden bricks. And it's a very colorful, shining, and the emperor would be the only one sitting. So all the other courtiers, ministers would be on both sides, flanking the emperor. And each one of them will be bowing, koto, and they will report to the emperor. So that would be the place where most of the important decisions, policies being made in the imperial time. And the morning audience in the past was very early.

• 23:28Speaker 04

  So basically, the emperor would get up and got ready for this morning audience, maybe at about three or four o'clock in the morning. So they'll have to get up, get dressed, had a little something to eat, maybe a dumpling. You can imagine that all the courtiers, they will get up even earlier because they have to come into the palace. So maybe two o'clock, they'll have to get up.

• 23:52Dan Snow?

  It looks like a fortress in some ways, doesn't it? Big moat, big walls. Are those ceremonial defenses? Do you think they were ever intended to withstand a siege?

• 24:01Speaker 04

  I think it's mainly ceremonial. And in fact, foreign envoy coming to Beijing, he would come through one gate after another, following a very narrow but long procession.

• 24:14Speaker 04

  About one kilometer before he could actually reach the main gate of the Forbidden City. That's a statement that you are getting closer and closer to the emperor. And eventually you see a grand building with this main gate. And once you go in, you see on such a big open plaza, you see the Hall of Supreme Harmony. So that was terrifying. All the trade deals you came up with, you maybe, oh, forget about it.

• 24:44Dan Snow?

  Yeah, I was determined to give him a piece of my mind. Now I'm not so sure. Why did it get the name Forbidden City? Is that historic or is that?

• 24:54Speaker 04

  I think it was because that was forbidden. They were not allowed to go in without permission. Only certified personnel could enter. The Forbidden City was actually divided into two halves. So the front half is the outer court. And the second half is the inner palaces. So one is a space dealing with state affairs. So it's more official. But the second half is more personal. So it's the family space. So family time would be the second half. Once you get to the living quarters, the size of the buildings is smaller. And behind the living quarters, of course, that's the garden area.

• 25:39Speaker 04

  That's even more fun because you have a lot more unique stuff. It's a lot less regulated. In the Imperial Garden, in the living quarters, you see a lot more plants. You have to picture in your mind would be those animals that the emperor raised as pets. So they raise cranes, for example. They do have cats and dogs, but some of the unique stuff would be cranes. And deer, they are both symbolic animals for longevity and also related to immortals. But we consider the forbiddency as the residence of the imperial family.

• 26:23Speaker 04

  It hosted twenty-four emperors over the past six centuries.

• 26:29Dan Snow?

  I've been to lots of palaces in Europe and often there's very grand staterooms, but some of the kitchens and the back areas are a bit shabby, even the domestic spaces. What's your sense of the thousands of rooms in this post?

• 26:40Speaker 04

  It really depends on the financial status of the empire. I think in the peak era, I think it's relatively well-furnished everywhere. But of course, for the kitchen, for the servants' area, for hierarchy reasons, they couldn't be over-decorated. Basically, every bit of the house has a regulated way of being decorated. One place that I love most is the Imperial Library. That's a two-story building covered with black-colored glazed tiles. The reason that we used the black tiles was because black symbolizing water

• 27:24Speaker 04

  in the Chinese Five Elements Theory. So we have gold, wood, water, fire, and earth. So the five elements, black symbolizing water. And as a library, of course, made of paper. The building itself, already very easy to be burned down. The paper books, very good burning materials. So they covered that with black tiles. And inside was Chinese version of the encyclopedia created by Amber Chenlong. I believe the total number of characters for this encyclopedia piece was about eight hundred million Chinese characters.

• 28:05Speaker 04

  So it takes any scholar, perhaps a lifetime really, to read them. But it's very comprehensive. It covers almost every aspect of Chinese life. So we have three and a half sets. So that's one of the most interesting places I would suggest. Because most people tends to, just to go through the central axis line, but skip this little courtyard, which has this beautiful library. And of course, in front of the library, there's a water pond. Oh, that there is. To make sure that they have enough supply of water. What a treasure. In the living quarters, on each side of the emperor's residence, on the east side and on the west side, there were six palaces, built for the concubines.

• 28:50Speaker 04

  One of these six, on the east side, was burned down in the late Qing dynasty. And in 1905, the Qing court was considering to create our own constitution. So we are trying to build up our constitutional monarchy. But how to do that? So they send a delegation to travel overseas to study. From your experiences, from the French, German, Japanese, they traveled to many countries over maybe 14, 15 months. But they came back, not only with their study of the political system, but also come back with some interesting findings

• 29:33Speaker 04

  about how the Western people entertain themselves. So they came back with an idea of Western aquarium. So they actually thought, you know, maybe we can entertain the Empress Dowager and the emperor with this aquarium thing. Because I'm sure the ministers who represented the Chinese emperor on this year-long journey were quite impressed with some of the aquariums you had. They're cool. So they actually hired a Western designer. But unfortunately, it's a long decision-making process. And ordering this kind of places, according to the size of this courtyard, also very difficult.

• 30:16Speaker 04

  So by the time they come up with the skeleton pieces.

• 30:21Speaker 04

  It's nineteen eleven. So revolution broke out. So never were able to complete that project. Very sad. But that's a very interesting piece because when they designed the building, they designed it. It's a hybrid of both Western and Chinese aesthetics. So it has a forbidden-like building. Or your bell tower, like you go to church, you have a little bell tower. That top looks like a dome. And so you have a staircase. It's like a building surrounded with a mini moat. But once you go in, you actually have take steps to go down. One level down, go to basement level.

• 31:05Speaker 04

  And there's glasses on four sides. You can look out. And on this canal, in this canal, you have perhaps all kinds of weird fishes or turtles or maybe even crocodiles that you can raise. And so the emperor can enjoy looking at all these different species. That's a lovely creation, but never being completed.

• 31:31Dan Snow?

  The Forbidden City served as China's imperial palace for more than five hundred years. As Matthew explains, it was home to twenty-four emperors, fourteen from the Ming Dynasty, followed by ten from the Qing. And those early Ming years marked something of a golden age, a period of prosperity and cultural blossoming as China reasserted itself after decades of foreign Mongol rule. This is Jeremiah Jenny again.

• 32:00Speaker 03

  So the Ming Dynasty rules China officially from thirteen sixty-eight until sixteen forty-four. I think a lot of what we see in the later imperial period, the Ming set the foundations of, not just physically in Beijing and the Forbidden City, but also in terms of how they approached the organization of the bureaucracy, the role of the emperor. When we take a look at the era as a whole, what we do also see is an amazing era of literature, cultural flourishing, painting. It's when the economy of what we think of as today China becomes a lot more sophisticated, a lot more urbanized. There's a lot going on, apart from the fact that we have very often some very weak and ineffectual emperors sitting in the Forbidden City.

• 32:43Dan Snow?

  But like most royal courts throughout history, the Forbidden City was rife with scheming advisors and power-hungry aides. Quietly trying to climb the greasy pole.

• 32:53Speaker 03

  This was a dynasty that at one point misplaced an emperor. They went out to fight the Mongolians. And when they all rushed back to Beijing after being defeated, they looked around him and like, "Wait, I thought he was with you." They had left him behind on the battlefield. This was also a dynasty where they had an emperor who ruled for a long time, but spent the last 20 years of his rule in his bedroom because he just got tired of being an emperor and refused to come out. And here's the thing, whether you're talking about ancient Rome or Ming Dynasty China, if emperors refuse to play, or if emperors are not very good at politics, there are plenty of powers in the palace who are more than willing to step in. In the case of the Ming Dynasty, you have unscrupulous officials, corrupt eunuchs,

• 33:34Speaker 03

  imperial in-laws, all kinds of intrigue, which also makes the Ming Dynasty a very rich era for stories, novels, legends, and tales of people up to no good.

• 33:47Dan Snow?

  So it sounds to me like it's remarkable the Ming flourished for so long, because actually they do have a pretty good run of it.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  They do. A lot of that is due to a bureaucracy that's able to keep the government functioning, even if you have a relatively weak emperor. Although the Ming Dynasty, unlike their successors, the Qing, there was a critical flaw in this system. And that was the first emperor of the Ming Dynasty, the Hongwu Emperor, was an incredibly, if we will, effective ruler, brutal at times. But he, as a young man, fought against the Mongolians, fought in a civil war, was one of the first commoners to become emperor in over 1,500 years. So here's a guy who knows how to get things done. And when he installs himself as the emperor, one of the things he does, because he doesn't trust these

• 34:33Speaker 03

  elite, deep state officials, he abolishes the office that we might think of as prime minister, or the person who's kind of head of the government, and decides to take on the job himself. Which is okay if you are a paranoid doom-freak workaholic like the Hongwu Emperor, or even a highly effective, if brutal, despot like the Yongle Emperor. But as we go through history and we have emperors who wanted to be carpenters, or emperors who refused to come out of their bedroom, what you have then is a government that doesn't necessarily have that unifying executive figure, and that would often cause problems, allowing things like corruption, bureaucratic rot to set in.

• 35:12Dan Snow?

  Why eventually does the Ming project peter out?

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Part of it is that a succession of weak emperors, there's only so long the bureaucracy can hold things together. Having a weak emperor is okay when things are going fine, but when you start to have major problems, then you need strong leadership to fix those problems. And by the early 17th century, two problems emerged that will really test the ability of the Ming dynasty to hold on to power. The first one is a change in the climate, if you will. There are famines happening, and this is part of a process that we see reflected in other places, other historical contexts of a little ice age, if you will, in the early 17th century. This causes crop failures. And now in an effective government in China, you could move grain around, you could open up the granaries.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  But by this point, because of problems in leadership, that kind of relief was not forthcoming. And when people are hungry, they're very susceptible to suggestions like, hey, I'm a rebel leader, will you join my army? People will do a lot of things if it comes with the promise of food attached. And so not only do you have these problems of famine, but then you also have rising up very large, what the palace calls bandits, but again, we might call people who are so hungry, they will do anything. And these armies start roaming across the territory. And eventually, one of these large armies makes its way all the way to Beijing, one of these rebel armies, and takes the city in 1644.

• 36:41Dan Snow?

  You're listening to Dan Snow's History. There's more to come.

• 36:49Dan Snow?

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• 37:32Dan Snow?

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• 38:00Dan Snow?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. I never thought about the history of coffee. You make it, you drink it, nothing more to it. Then I've had a TikTok video about how people in the 1700s would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it. I love that sort of discovery, a detail. But suddenly you're imagining how people lived and drank and socialized. Now I wonder what all baffle historians about us? Mugs. It's a ceramic vessel, but crucially, it has a handle. Well, that's the joy of TikTok, folks. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 38:44Speaker 01

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• 40:28Dan Snow?

  Across the countryside, this famine and desperation sparked waves of rebellion. One man, Li Zhicheng, a former postal worker, emerged from the chaos, promising fair taxes and land for the poor. He raised a rebel army that swept across China, and in 1644, they marched on Beijing itself.

• 40:51Dan Snow?

  His forces entered the city, and the last Ming emperor, Chen Chen, fled and took his own life to avoid the dishonor of surrender. But it would not be Li Zhicheng's rebels who took power. To the northeast of Beijing, beyond the Wall, another army was waiting. The Manchu's poised to invade a weakened China. Caught between the rebels who controlled Beijing and an invasion force to the north, the Ming general Wu Sangui made a fateful choice. He opened the gates of the Great Wall. The Manchu army stormed through. They crushed Li Zhicheng's rebellion and seized Beijing.

• 41:36Dan Snow?

  The Ming era was over. The Manchu now claimed the Mandate of Heaven and ushered in a new imperial age.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  From 1644 until 1912, they rule this massive empire with modern-day China as its core.

• 41:56Dan Snow?

  Strange that the first emperor of that dynasty was actually a kid. That seems a little unusual. There's no dynamic family.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  To get into the family history, his father Hong Taiji was the son of another talented, almost like a Genghis Khan figure called Nur Haji. And his son Hong Taiji was an incredible military leader in his own right. But he dies just before all this happens. And so it's his young son who is officially on the throne. His brother's Dorgon, his widow, Sun Jor's mother, who is also playing a very strong role behind the scenes, often in league with Dorgon. The family dynamic is quite interesting, but it works.

• 42:34Dan Snow?

  And how are the Qing different to them? I mean, they're living in the same palace, so they're inhabiting that space. Do they try and present themselves as pretty Chinese from the off? Or are they proud of their differences?

• 42:43Speaker 03

  When you look at the documents written in Manchu, it is clear the Manchu see themselves as a distinct people, that their distinctiveness, being different, is what their power is. They look back at the Mongolians and they think, you know, what went wrong was when you all started thinking of yourselves as Chinese. We've got to keep our traditions. We've got to keep our martial vigor. We've got to keep our hairstyles. We're not going to necessarily impose our culture on the Chinese, but we're going to make sure that we are always Manchu's or people of the banners, as they would call themselves. The one thing they did impress upon the Chinese was they made every male get a haircut. And so the idea was to make sure they always knew who was on Team Qing. They made all Han Chinese males get the Manchu haircut,

• 43:28Speaker 03

  which was to shave your heads in the front and braid your hair long at the back, which when many Westerners started learning about China, they thought was the Chinese hairstyle. This was actually a hairstyle imposed on them. And for Chinese men, for whom long hair was a sign of masculinity and virility, this was an enormous humiliation. So the Manchu's came up with a slogan. "You can keep your hair, but you'll lose your head. Lose your hair, keep your head." And it wasn't the easiest sell. But the thing about having this queue, as it was called, with that long braid. Was you couldn't fake it. And so as a result, if you had the Q, you were loyal. If you didn't have it, you were a rebel.

• 44:11Dan Snow?

  Wow. Does life in the Imperial Palace here, for example, in Beijing, would there have been continuities between the Ming and the Qing?

• 44:19Speaker 03

  The Forbidden City gets pretty well trashed in the transition, both from this rebel army that took over initially and when the Manchu's come in. But they do rebuild it. They rebuild it more or less the way the Ming Dynasty had it. Because they do understand, as distinctive as they are, the importance of being part of this political tradition. It's one of the things that the Qing emperors do very well. They've learned. They know that they have to keep their distinctiveness, but they also know they have to be part of this political tradition. One of the things they did in the Forbidden City was in the very back halls in the inner court, there's a palace called Kunninggong, and it's in the very back of the Forbidden City. In Ming times, it had a variety of uses, but in Qing times, they set up an altar for

• 45:04Speaker 03

  their own rituals, because the Manchu's had their own religion, which was kind of a shamanistic religion with totems. In fact, there's no connection as far as we know, but it wouldn't be completely unfamiliar to Native Americans in the Pacific Northwest. A lot of animal spirits. But it was something they didn't want the Chinese to always get wind of, because the Chinese would see this as being somewhat barbaric. So they would have their rituals in the back of the Forbidden City, where they would eat sacraments of semi-cooked pork and things that they just didn't want the Chinese to be aware of. And it made the palace quite filthy a lot of the time. So there were things that they were doing that were different than the Ming Dynasty would have done them, for sure. And they've become very good, particularly as we get to some of the later emperors, like

• 45:48Speaker 03

  the Kangxi Emperor, who rules from 1661. They've become very good at what we think of in the modern day as code switching, which means when there are Chinese officials, Han Chinese officials, are in the room, they can be the Confucian emperor. They can quote Confucius, they can write the poetry. In fact, they have to be better at this than maybe their Ming Dynasty predecessors, because Chinese officials are judgy. But when the Chinese officials leave the room and their Mongolian allies or their Central Asian envoys come in, well, then they don't talk about poetry. They don't wear their robes of emperor, they wear their furs and they talk about, hey, Borgata, when we're going tiger hunting, because I'm the better shot, remember that. On horseback, I'm always the better shot, because that's what matters.

• 46:30Speaker 03

  If you want to rule Central Asia, you got to be a khan. If you want to rule China, you have to be an emperor. The Mongolians knew how to be khans. The Ming knew how to be emperors. The Qing emperors, at their best, knew how to be both. And that was one of the things that made them so successful, despite the fact they were a conquest dynasty.

• 46:52Dan Snow?

  They're presenting two different faces to the world in a way. Well, there's their public face and their private face in the palace.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  They knew how to be what the room needed them to be, like all skillful rulers and statesmen often do. And they could do it in many languages. The Qianlong Emperor could speak Manchu Chinese. He was pretty good in Tibetan as well. And so you had these rulers who were able to interact with many different people from all over Asia, sometimes in their own languages. That's a pretty special skill, and I think that's one reason why they were so successful. Life in the palace for the Manchus, they adapted to palace life as best they could, given they were a semi-nomadic people. But they never totally grooved on the Forbidden City. There was always this feeling as that we inherited this enclosed space.

• 47:42Speaker 03

  They weren't wild about Beijing. One of the ways they changed the city was they moved most of the Han Chinese out of the northern city around the Forbidden City to the southern city, and moved the Manchus into the neighborhoods around the Forbidden City. So all these different neighborhoods belonged to the different banners of the Qing army. And the Chinese city, south of where Tiananmen Square is, was also where most of the markets, the brothels, the theaters, and all of the fun went. And so it has effect even on the cityscape. One of the other reasons they did this, not just because they wanted a certain segregation for political reasons, but also the Manchus had no experience with smallpox. And smallpox decimated the earliest generations of the Qing rulers. In fact, that first young emperor, Shunzhe Emperor,

• 48:25Speaker 03

  who was the young boy who was in 1644 brought down here, died rather young of smallpox. His son, the Kangxi Emperor, who would go on to become one of the greatest rulers in Chinese history, was chosen at eight years old to be the heir because he was one of the only sons to get smallpox and survive. It was lottery. And yet, he turned out to be a great emperor. And so they wanted that kind of segregation for health reasons too. But the Manchu also knew how to enjoy life in the palace. And one of the things they would do is, first of all, they would go on these long rides. And they established in the outskirts of Beijing, these gardens for themselves to use, the ones that became the summer palaces. So they would go out there, they would ride around, they would have banquets and feasts and tea parties,

• 49:09Speaker 03

  and all kinds of games and activities. They loved a good competition of horseback archery, which I don't know if you have ever tried it, is really hard. I tried to do it once when I was out in Inner Mongolia. And it was lucky that neither I nor the horse was shot. And they could do it at full gallop. Some of their banquets was a little bit different than what the Chinese might have enjoyed. They were very big on game, meat. And of course, if you were the emperor, as much as you might like your, you know, venison stew, the rules about eating could really take a lot of the fun out of the table. Because you would be presented with an enormous table of all these dishes,

• 49:52Speaker 03

  but you were only allowed one bite of any particular dish, lest you reveal a favorite food. And the idea was, once the emperor was finished with his one bite of any particular dish, the food would then be distributed to the rest of the household, down the line, down the pecking order, of the princes, the concubines, and down and down it goes. The leftovers would travel. You could order a full Manhan, Manchu Han feast in some restaurants in Beijing.

• 50:24Dan Snow?

  Well, the shadows definitely lengthening here in Beijing. And I'll tell you what, Mariana de Forj, I've been at our feet all day and we're looking forward to a a meal in a cosy restaurant. Because you will never go anywhere in the world where you will eat better than you do in China. The cuisine is absolutely out of control. Last time we were here, I put on a stone in weight. Every day, we went to a different place, ate different food. We had Peking duck from Beijing, we had spicy Dan Dan noodles from Sichuan. We had what they call Chinese hamburgers, little flatbreads with shredded meat from Xi'an. And today, well, we're going for another banquet. We're going to enjoy the dishes that the Qing emperors would have enjoyed in the banqueting hall at the Forbidden City.

• 51:09Dan Snow?

  Because the thing about the Qing is that they are reasonably close to us in time, so we can look back in recipes that have been preserved and we can really find out what they ate. This is obviously very important historical work, a research. Because how people eat, what they eat, when they eat, well, that tells us a huge amount about people and their customs, their belief systems, trade networks and rituals. I'm going to be joined by a very special guest at this dinner. His name is Thomas Dubois, he's a culinary historian and professor of Chinese at the Beijing Normal University. His newest book is China in Seven Banquets: A Flavorful History.

• 51:46Speaker 05

  Cheers. Great to see you, Thomas. Lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you.

• 51:50Dan Snow?

  Very excited about this.

• 51:51Speaker 05

  I'm extremely excited. And you tossed it the right way.

• 51:55Dan Snow?

  So we'll just start off by cheersing, and I don't want to get that bit wrong, because I understand that there's even some ritual and protocol around how you do that.

• 52:02Speaker 05

  The first thing is that you want to be lower than the glass of the person that you're clinking glasses with. And I've seen that turn into some, uh, some real acrobatics. I have more than once seen it end with people on the floor.

• 52:16Dan Snow?

  This is quite a special feast, I must say.

• 52:21Speaker 05

  And you'll notice that these fried meatballs are not oily. That's why they serve them on paper like this, so you can see it's almost like tempura.

• 52:29Dan Snow?

  Oh, I see.

• 52:30Speaker 05

  That they're not leaving an oil stain. So this is pork with bean flour, and that gives it a really beautiful texture.

• 52:40Dan Snow?

  While I'm asking you another question, I'm gonna just be eating here and listening to all your wonderful answers. It's heaven. What form do these would have feast taken? People in the West might be familiar with different courses, which are served and then cleared. Is that something that's recognizable in nineteenth century China? Or is it just a different concept of serving food?

• 53:00Speaker 05

  You would have sort of what you would call a jiao pai cai, the big, beautiful dish that sits in the middle of the table. Any kind of roasted meat would take that place. The meal doesn't revolve around that one dish in the way it would in the West. So the order that the food comes in, this is dictated by custom. It's also dictated by health. Sort of what is going to be digested in what order. So you wouldn't get the very heavy food at the beginning. You would open up your appetite like what we've got coming in right now. The cold dishes come in first. But generally, they would all be on the table at the same time.

• 53:37Dan Snow?

  Did the Qing, when would they have an imperial feast?

• 53:42Speaker 05

  So, any guest who would come, particularly a foreign guest. But that would also mean guests from the regions of China and Central Asia, like Tibet, like Mongolia. Any guest arriving would get a state banquet. And the emperor may or may not be there. And the rank of the guest would determine the rank of the banquet. Anywhere from one, two, three, or four would determine what is on the menu. First, the thing to note is that there are two banquets. There is a Manchu banquet, and there is a Chinese banquet, Mahan Qianxi. So the Chinese banquet is the one that we're going to be talking about. That would have a few dozen dishes. Overwhelmingly, the main ingredient of this banquet was pork.

• 54:28Speaker 05

  The flavor came from dried seafood. Overwhelmingly.

• 54:32Dan Snow?

  So I've noticed this feast that you've laid out before us here. It's not what you might describe as spicy, which I would have thought would be pretty common in this part of the world. Are we too far in the north of China for that to be true?

• 54:43Speaker 05

  North China is not a spicy kind of place. Not in terms of the cuisine, anyway. The main taste you want to have is a balance of taste. But if there is one main taste that drives through all of this, it's xian, savory. So in Japanese, it's called umami, just how you know it in English. For a meat-heavy cuisine, that's really the taste that comes out in soy sauce and all of the sauces and all of the meat preparations. That's the main taste that is driving this banquet. So if you look at the food we've got on the table, one of the main spices that you would get, or one of the main flavors you would get in North China, is this sesame paste.

• 55:24Speaker 05

  And sesame is particularly in the provinces to the south of us, in Shandong. It's one of the main tastes that you would have in sweet and savory dishes. A lot of the spices that we have would be things like star anise, which is a main taste of five spice powder. The Sichuan peppercorn is what we have in this dish of green beans, and it's that numbing peppercorn. So the ones that are really important to Chinese cuisine, that are native to China, star anise, ginger. Ginger was supposed to be a great favorite of Confucius. And sesame. Dishes like chilies, like white pepper. These come in over the course of hundreds of years,

• 56:08Speaker 05

  some from Central Asia, some from Southeast Asia. But that's why you don't see them in all Chinese cuisines, like you do, for example, with soy sauce or fermented beans in general.

• 56:22Dan Snow?

  Where are the banquets taking place? And how far away is the sort of emperor's private dining?

• 56:28Speaker 05

  Where the banquets are taking place, they would often, if you have a lot of guests being invited, if you're in the city, if you're in Beijing, you might set up, inside the palace walls but outside of the buildings, you might set up a special dining venue because you might have hundreds of people showing up. So essentially, a very lavish tent. And the Qing emperors, if you're going out of Beijing to entertain guests, say, in the Manchurian homeland, then you absolutely would be doing this in a tent.

• 57:02Dan Snow?

  Oh, interesting.

• 57:03Speaker 05

  Or you would be doing it partially outside. There's a long tradition of extremely fancy picnics.

• 57:10Dan Snow?

  Which is, I suppose, a little bit more in keeping with their step ancestry.

• 57:13Speaker 05

  Yes, absolutely. And a good deal of what would be served, particularly if you go further north, would be very similar to traditional Manchurian, Mongolian step cuisine. So a lot of lamb.

• 57:27Speaker 05

  One thing that would not be on the menu would be beef. The Qing royal family did not eat beef.

• 57:33Speaker 05

  A lot of people in China don't. The same reason that a lot of Qing court didn't eat beef was because of Buddhist reasons mixed with Confucian ethics. And behind that whole story is the fact that cattle help people on the farm. So this is an animal that helps people. You should treat it essentially as a family pet. And mourn it when it dies. In reality, most people would eat the animal when it dies, but the discourse is still there, and it did reach all the way to the palace.

• 58:07Dan Snow?

  So I'm helping myself to a large bit of this cabbage, named after the Qing emperor. What's he actually eating day to day?

• 58:14Speaker 05

  A lot of the emperors had very simple tastes. Particularly the early emperors. Remember that a dynasty is usually started by a military figure, by a soldier. Soldiers tend to have very Spartan habits. So the first few emperors of any dynasty, the Ming and Qing, were certainly not exceptional. So one of the examples that I can think of is the Yongzhong Emperor, who was the early 18th century Qing emperor. And he was famous for making friends with Buddhist monks. For eating vegetarian when he could. Just very Spartan from the way he dressed, from the way he just lived his daily life. And you think about it, if you're eating this every night, this is delicious to have tonight.

• 58:59Speaker 05

  Do you want to have it tomorrow?

• 59:00Dan Snow?

  Yeah, yes, I do.

• 59:04Dan Snow?

  I get your point. It wouldn't be good for me.

• 59:06Speaker 05

  And when you can, you eat simple. You prize the fact that you can control what you eat. This is something that I think people don't appreciate about the emperors is they weren't sort of Louis-style monarchs. They were, in a sense, they were very much prisoners of custom. So they didn't have a lot of choice in what they ate. A lot of what they ate was decided by court dieticians.

• 59:30Dan Snow?

  Oh, wow.

• 59:31Speaker 05

  If you're not in a formal dining, this kind of atmosphere. It wasn't lavish, every meal lavish for the sake of being lavish.

• 59:39Dan Snow?

  Can I just ask a quick question? What on earth was this strip-like, rather cartilaginous material here?

• 59:47Speaker 05

  Well, that's some part of our duck.

• 59:49Dan Snow?

  It's a piece of duck.

• 59:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, this is the skeleton of our duck that's been cut up and fried.

• 59:54Dan Snow?

  OK.

• 59:56Speaker 05

  So after you get the duck, you get to decide what happens to the carcass. And you can make it into a soup. You can serve them as noodles. Those are the two main choices. But the soup is lovely. It's a white, milky soup. And that's from the marrow in the bones.

• 1:00:11Dan Snow?

  So nothing at all goes to waste?

• 1:00:12Speaker 05

  Nothing goes to waste.

• 1:00:13Dan Snow?

  And would that be true of these great feasts?

• 1:00:14Speaker 05

  It was absolutely shared out. The idea of wasting food, even in an ostentatious occasion like this, is absolute anathema. There are records, some historical records, of how these feasts actually worked. An example would be, not the ones that happened in the palace, but ones that were probably very similar to them. You would come as a very important person with a giant revenue in tow. Maybe dozens of people, maybe hundreds of people. So when McCartney showed up in 1793, he brought his own parade with him of porters, of assistants and whatnot. And this is part of the prestige of the visitors, how many people come in tow.

• 1:00:58Speaker 05

  So one of the big questions you have with these historical banquets, how many people were invited? Because we know how much food there was, but we don't know how many people were eating. The main historical record that talks about these banquets. Would describe them again in rank of one to four, Manchu or Han, whatever. Any permutation of these is going to have at least 20 pounds of pork. A ridiculous amount of pork. And that is not a table. My theory about this is that this is per person.

• 1:01:36Dan Snow?

  Whoa.

• 1:01:37Speaker 05

  And the reason it's per person is because you were expected to take the leftovers to your retinue that came with you in tow. There are even records from the very early Qing dynasty, so of the emperors that just first sat on the throne. So the ones who were really sort of connected to the, to society and armies and battles and weren't cloistered in the palace, that they would invite their Mongol and Manchu allies to have these giant feasts. And these giant feasts were all meat, 100% meat.

• 1:02:11Dan Snow?

  Wow.

• 1:02:12Speaker 05

  And there are visitor descriptions of people taking meat away from the banquet, taking it home in whatever they had. So, you know, people didn't bring Tupperware with them, but they would take off their, wearing these furs, they would take off their furs and wrap as much meat as they could inside. And so the southern observers, you know, more elite, more cultured people who are viewing these and who are writing it all down, are, what in the world is happening? They're wrapping this giant chunk of roast lamb in a fur coat and taking it home. So that's the economy of feasting. You are not feasting for one.

• 1:02:53Dan Snow?

  Just imagine General Wu sitting there at a big feast thinking, what did I do? I've let these barbarians in. Now we're all doing takeout. Then should we pass the beer over to you guys?

• 1:03:04Speaker 05

  This is becoming, only relatively recently becoming common, you would drink something cold with dinner.

• 1:03:10Dan Snow?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:03:11Speaker 05

  Because this is just considered to be bad for your digestion.

• 1:03:14Dan Snow?

  Speaking of alcohol, what role does that play at the, at a banquet?

• 1:03:17Speaker 05

  Huge, immense. Is interesting because alcohol and drinking culture is one of the earliest things we see in China. China developed it at about the same time that ancient Egypt developed it. But drinking culture in the Confucian texts and in China revolves around drinking but not getting drunk. So this is the statement that is always said about Confucius. And if it's good enough for Confucius, it's good enough for anyone. That's one of the basic rules. Is that Confucius liked to drink. So he wasn't a Puritan, but he never got drunk. Didn't drink to excess. And that's the social ideal of drinking in China. This is how we toast.

• 1:04:02Dan Snow?

  Before you do, can I just check that you're not committing some? Because as the highest status male here, should I be toasting you first?

• 1:04:09Speaker 05

  I should go first, local.

• 1:04:11Dan Snow?

  In that case, how about it?

• 1:04:13Speaker 05

  Okay, so first, how you hold your glass. So if this is a Baijiu glass, it would be the same shape, but it would be a lot smaller. You hold it by the bottom like this. The left hand goes under the bottom. So this is again a sign of respect, just like how we clink glasses. I would hold it up like this. I would say a few words to welcome our guest. So simply, welcome to Beijing. It is extremely nice to meet you. And thank you for letting me be part of this program. And I would hold it up like this. You would do exactly the same with your left hand on the bottom. And as the person who offers the toast, I am required to drink the whole thing.

• 1:04:55Dan Snow?

  Oh.

• 1:04:56Speaker 05

  Not so much with beer, but with hard alcohol. And I would say to you, you don't have to drink the whole thing. Just drink as much as you can, just have a sip. But me, as a show of respect, I drain mine. So, welcome to Beijing.

• 1:05:11Dan Snow?

  Thank you very much. And then I would, would I reply? Now is a good time to reply?

• 1:05:15Speaker 05

  Now is a nice time to reply.

• 1:05:16Dan Snow?

  So I will hold my glass by the stem with my right hand. I will place my three fingers, my left hand underneath the bottom. I'll say, thank you so much for coming on this episode of the podcast. I cannot think of a more enjoyable meal that I've ever had, both in terms of the food that's consumed and the conversation that was had. Thank you so much, unforgettable.

• 1:05:35Speaker 05

  And then I would respond with ganbei.

• 1:05:37Dan Snow?

  Perfect, okay, ganbei.

• 1:05:38Speaker 05

  Ganbei.

• 1:05:42Dan Snow?

  You're listening to Dan Snow's History at This More Coming Up.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  This is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The coolest flex at brunch these days is not the Bloody Mary with the bottomless Goldflake caviar topping. It's not whipping out your wallet to pay. It's not having a wallet at all. Jack's been an Apple Card user since 2019. That's the same year he tossed his wallet in the trash. Because Apple Card holders earn 2% daily cash back on purchases made using Apple Pay. It's the only credit card designed for the iPhone. I tap to pay with Apple Card at the grocery store, at the gas station, at restaurants. And yes, I use it at my second home, the farmer's market. Jack tapping to pay with his Apple Card with Apple Pay is his favorite thing to do. And the pleasant vibration and chime sound means I just got 2% daily cash back on my latest purchase. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Apple Card, issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  Blood donation is now more inclusive. More LGBTQ+ individuals are able to donate blood with the American Red Cross due to FDA guidelines that eliminate eligibility questions based on sexual orientation. The Red Cross celebrates this historic change and welcomes those who may be newly eligible to donate blood. There's a place for everyone in the mission of the Red Cross, including you. The Red Cross is committed to achieving a blood donation process that treats all potential donors with equality and respect while maintaining the safety of the blood supply. Join us and help save lives. To learn more and make your appointment to donate blood, visit redcrossblood.org/LGBTQ. That's redcrossblood.org/LGBTQ.

• 1:07:34Dan Snow?

  By the late 18th century, the Qing court was part of a booming global trade network. As Thomas said, "receiving visitors from as far as Britain." The British weren't even allowed inside the Forbidden City. The emperor issued a high-handed edict. "Our celestial empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks no product within its borders. There is therefore no need to import the manufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce."

• 1:08:04Dan Snow?

  Instead of ships arriving from Europe full of manufactures, they arrived laden with silver. The Chinese would sell European merchants silk and porcelain and tea, of course, which had become an obsession in England. But this would become a problem. China's trade was one-sided. By the late 18th century, silver was leaving Britain faster than it could be replaced. The British desperately looked for other ways to pay their bills. And eventually, the British gaze fell on opium. This addictive substance was sent to China in enormous volumes to address the balance of trade. It was devastating for the Chinese. This is Jeremiah again.

• 1:08:49Dan Snow?

  The Qing dynasty just have the longest death rattle in history.

• 1:08:54Speaker 03

  It was a bit of a perfect storm. You get to the 19th century. The Qing Empire is facing a threat, an existential threat that it really could not have anticipated. I mean, how do you foresee an industrial revolution in one part of the world? And policies in that part of the world that then see the rest of the planet as potential colonies and markets? And so you have increasingly aggressive imperial powers, Britain, France, eventually the United States, Germany, Russia, Japan, all wanting their peace of China. The people who were in charge in this era, children and then regents, often their mother or their great aunt, just could not keep things together.

• 1:09:38Dan Snow?

  People will have heard you talk on this podcast about the Opium Wars. And people might be familiar with the broad term. But roughly speaking, what happens in those wars? And importantly, what is their legacy? What's their effect on China?

• 1:09:49Speaker 03

  Sure, so beginning in 1840, you actually have a series of wars between different foreign powers and China. The first ones are wars over the opium trade. But then you have other wars involving, for example, The Qing Empire's involvement in Vietnam, which brings them into a war with the French. You have the Boxer War, in which groups from within China rise up against the foreigners. And this then causes the foreign powers to send, eight different countries to send armies into China. And after each of these wars, you have treaties that are signed that are, in some cases, literally, other cases figuratively, signed at the point of a gun. And these treaties greatly favor the foreign powers.

• 1:10:32Speaker 03

  So they're stripping the sovereignty of the Qing Empire away, piece by piece, even as the corruption in the court becomes worse and worse. It's impossible to imagine any state surviving this kind of situation.

• 1:10:44Dan Snow?

  I think in a way it is amazing that China still exists, given how many other states were partitioned, conquered, and whose histories were radically changed by this period of European imperialism.

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  In the early 20th century, there were reformers and revolutionaries who would use the term "to be Poland-ed." Where they would refer to the erasure of Poland from the map of Europe with the idea that this could very well happen to China. It could be carved up like a melon. They knew what was happening with the scramble for Africa. They knew what was happening in the rest of the world. And they had no reason to believe that they would not be next. And one of the things that would inspire some of these revolutionaries, that would ultimately topple the Qing, was this belief that they might be the last generation of Chinese civilization. If we don't do something, that's it. Five thousand years, we'll be the ones to turn off the lights. So we better act, and we better act soon, and we better act radically.

• 1:11:36Dan Snow?

  So of all the wonderful things you've told me about Chinese history, and I don't want to be too derivative here, but the Qing, you've got corruption at court, poor leadership, succession of emperors, out of touch. You've got groups within China rising up for all sorts of reasons, and you've got a massive external threat. Now that, in the past, has spelled the end of a dynasty. Is that what we see at the end of the Qing?

• 1:11:58Speaker 03

  Right, and I think what happens too is that people will pick and choose the real cause based upon where they're standing. So many historians outside of China... Have said, "Well, you know, the Qing government fell because of all the corruption and the mismanagement." So the foreign imperialism, that was a problem, but it was really kind of a surface issue. It was the rot from within. It would not have stood in any case. And of course, the Chinese would say, "Well, it's only due to the foreign powers coming in." But of course, like most things in history, it's not that neat. It's a lot of different factors. And it's hard to think of any dynasty that faced that kind of threat all at the same time.

• 1:12:36Dan Snow?

  What happened the last few years of the Qing? We are in early 20th century now.

• 1:12:40Speaker 03

  So in the early 20th century, what you have is a succession of child emperors. Beginning in 1861, there's a young emperor that comes to the throne, but the real power is the boy's mother. When this young emperor conveniently dies before taking the throne on his own, his mother appoints her nephew, the boy's cousin, to be another boy emperor. And when this one grows up and starts to get ideas of his own, she locks him in a palace. And then just before she dies, to make sure he doesn't do anything that she wouldn't like after she is gone, just before she dies, she has him poisoned. And then, as her last act, installs yet another child emperor on the throne. And this is, of course, the last emperor, Pu Yi,

• 1:13:23Speaker 03

  the subject of a very famous movie, The Last Emperor. And so when these rebellions and these revolutions break out in the early 20th century, who's in charge? This woman, the Empress Dowager, who controlled the power behind all these children for all those years? She's gone. There's a boy emperor on the throne. There's really no one that could withstand the immense popular and elite forces that were arrayed against it. And so in 1911, when a relatively minor uprising breaks out in the city of Wuhan, well, there's no one to stand up against it. And it spreads because everyone thinks, "Well, it's no point saving this dynasty." And by February 1912, the court has negotiated abdication.

• 1:14:05Speaker 03

  And not only has the Qing dynasty, which has been ruling China since 1644, gone, but you could argue 2,000 years, going back to the first emperor of Qin or so, of a dynastic system that's just blown away.

• 1:14:20Dan Snow?

  On the 1st of January 1912, China became a republic. Nanjing, in the south, was designated the provisional capital. You get a weird phase where Pu Yi, the emperor, is still living in the Forbidden City, but he's restricted certain parts of it.

• 1:14:37Speaker 03

  Pu Yi was allowed to live in the Forbidden City under certain restrictions because he was still a young boy. And he lived there for the next 12 years until 1924. But by that point, China had changed politically. It had been divided up. It'd become a failed state with warlords competing over everything. And the idea of having a growing emperor rattling around the Forbidden City makes too tempting a target. In 1917, there had been an attempt by a warlord to restore Pu Yi to power, even though Pu Yi wasn't involved in it. He quickly backtracked after they bombed the Forbidden City from the air, one of the first aerial bombings in Beijing. And then in 1924, when another warlord came in, he finally said, "Listen, you guys got to go." And they kicked Pu Yi and his family out of the palace once and for all.

• 1:15:22Dan Snow?

  The 18-year-old Pu Yi took refuge at the Japanese embassy and then settled in the port city of Tianjin to the southeast of Beijing. And we've got to finish his story because it really is extraordinary. He was later made emperor of the puppet state of Manchu Ko in Manchuria by the Japanese. At the end of World War II, following the Japanese surrender, he was captured by Soviet forces. As he attempted to flee to Japan, he was taken to the Soviet Union as a prisoner of war. In 1950, they handed him over to the new communist government in China, who imprisoned him in a re-education camp for nearly a decade. When he was finally released in 1959,

• 1:16:07Dan Snow?

  he essentially lived the rest of his life as a commoner in Beijing, working as a gardener. It's a wild story. The Forbidden City, meanwhile, was turned into a public institution. And in 1925, the Palace Museum was opened. This was the first chance ordinary people had to see behind the great walls, into the once mysterious and hidden halls of imperial power that had ruled theirs and their ancestors' lives for centuries.

• 1:16:37Speaker 04

  People flooded into the palace to have a pic. They never had a chance to really get a sense of what the emperor, his residence would look like, so they would like to see that. So that was a quite a historical moment.

• 1:16:53Dan Snow?

  Did it make people think, "This is ridiculous, what we're even thinking here", or did it make them almost nostalgic for that scale and grandeur and order of the empire? Do you have any sense?

• 1:17:05Speaker 04

  The most popular thinking in people's mind in early 1920s, that was right after the revolution, was perhaps that, you know, what corrupted life, you know, this Manchu imperial family had lived. Because one very popular slogan proposed by Dr. Seung-sung during the revolution was "驱除鞑虏，恢复中华", "鞑虏" referring to the Manchu barbarians. "Kick out the Manchu barbarians. Let's restore the Chinese civilization."

• 1:17:46Speaker 04

  So that was a popular slogan in 1910, 1911, 1912.

• 1:17:51Dan Snow?

  When I'm walking around the Forbidden City, the Imperial Palace, I'm so aware that you could only be in Beijing, you could only be in China. So special, because so many cities now, so many places are so homogeneous. There's coffee shops, there's steel, there's glass and concrete.

• 1:18:07Dan Snow?

  Earlier today, the importance of preserving that heritage and how special it is to have something so unique.

• 1:18:14Speaker 04

  I think that Chinese people, of course, appreciate that we had such an important piece of beautiful heritage preserved and managed so well today. That's why getting into the Forbidden City, getting into the Palace Museum, was on the priority list of almost all tourists. And that's also why getting a ticket was so difficult in the past 10 years. That shows two things. One is that people's interest in culture are becoming greater. For the first half of the Chinese reform era, after 1978,

• 1:18:54Speaker 04

  people's main focus, almost everybody, was on developing our economy. But for the past 20 years, two decades, I think this shift was very obvious, that people from all walks of life started to focus on going back to the tradition, to understand the root of our culture.

• 1:19:23Dan Snow?

  The Imperial Palace, the Forbidden City, was declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 1987, recognised, obviously, for its astonishing cultural and historical importance. But as of the summer of 2024, the whole central axis of Beijing is a World Heritage Site. It's not hard to see why. On this chilly November evening, that low sun is now flashing off the curved roofs of the towers that surround me. I'm standing between the bell tower and the drum tower now, on the central axis. It's a pedestrianised area, so it's a bit like a square, really, a village square, except I'm right in the heart of one of the world's busiest cities. There's some concession stands, lots of families out enjoying the last of the sunlight.

• 1:20:06Dan Snow?

  Kids have just been picked up from school, by the looks of it, by their grandparents. There's a few people playing hockey on rollerblades. We've got a man dancing with long scarlet silks. I could only now be in Beijing. I couldn't be anywhere else in the world. And in a country where so much has changed so rapidly, you feel, when you're standing here, like you're transported to the imperial age of China. You call me nostalgic, but it does feel so much more harmonious with the natural landscape, more so than the skyscrapers that surround the rest of the city and every other city in the world today. And that is why I'm such a massive believer in preserving these monuments, these heritage spaces. They're spaces that tell the story of civilizations through the ages.

• 1:20:51Dan Snow?

  They remind us that we have customs, traditions that make us different from each other and make each one of those traditions special. And just judging by the people around me, they're places where we want to congregate, we want to flock to. We find them stimulating and comforting and enriching.

• 1:21:10Dan Snow?

  It's one of my favourite things to, as you all know, take you along to these extraordinary places, have the adventures there and learn more about how our world was made from the most historic sites, from the places where history happened. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review so that other people can find it and enjoy it too. I'll be making a few other podcasts while I'm here in Beijing over the coming weeks. You can hear me talking about the rise and fall of the Ming Dynasty. We're going to go into that in a lot more detail. We only just skirted over the period in this episode. And if you want more on the central axis of Beijing, please check out our film on our video subscription service, our History Hit TV channel. The link is in the show notes to sign up. I highly recommend it. Thanks for listening, everyone. Bye bye.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  This is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The coolest flex at brunch these days is not the Bloody Mary with the bottomless gold flake caviar topping. It's not whipping out your wallet to pay. It's not having a wallet at all. Jack's been an Apple Card user since 2019. That's the same year he tossed his wallet in the trash. Because Apple Card holders earn 2% daily cash back on purchases made using Apple Pay. It's the only credit card designed for the iPhone. I tap to pay with Apple Card at the grocery store, at the gas station, at restaurants. And yes, I use it at my second home, the farmer's market. Jack tapping to pay with his Apple Card with Apple Pay is his favourite thing to do. And the pleasant vibration and chime sound? Means I just got 2% daily cash back on my latest purchase. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  Apple Card, issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  Blood donation is now more inclusive. More LGBTQ+ individuals are able to donate blood with the American Red Cross due to FDA guidelines that eliminate eligibility questions based on sexual orientation. The Red Cross celebrates this historic change and welcomes those who may be newly eligible to donate blood. There's a place for everyone in the mission of the Red Cross, including you. The Red Cross is committed to achieving a blood donation process that treats all potential donors with equality and respect while maintaining the safety of the blood supply. Join us and help save lives. To learn more and make your appointment to donate blood, visit redcrossblood.org/lgbtq. That's redcrossblood.org/lgbtq.

• 1:24:00Dan Snow?

  Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard III. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.