SYSK TRENDING - What Makes Someone Credible

Why do you believe some people almost immediately, while others make you skeptical? You might assume credibility comes down to expertise, experience and having the facts on your side. But there is much more going on. Research shows that we respond to subtle signals that can make someone seem more believable — sometimes before we’ve really considered what they’re saying. Even more surprising, some of the things people do to appear credible can actually make them less convincing. And many of the signals that influence us have little to do with the actual message. Understanding this matters more than ever. Every day we have to decide which experts, politicians, salespeople, coworkers, influencers and strangers we should believe — and which ones we shouldn’t. Stephen Martin is a visiting professor of behavioral science at Columbia University and an expert on influence and persuasion. He is co-author of Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don’t, and Why (https://amzn.to/2MDAtej). He joins me to explain the surprisingly subtle characteristics that make people seem credible, why they work on us, and how understanding them can help you become more persuasive — and a little harder to fool. PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS MONARCH: Write your own money story with Monarch! Use promo code SYSK at ⁠https://Monarch.com⁠ to get your 1st year of Monarch Core half off at just $50 AQUATRU: Head to ⁠https://AquaTru.com⁠ now and get 20% off your purifier using promo code SYSK AquaTru even comes with a 30-day best-tasting water guarantee or your money back! WAYFAIR: Ready to upgrade your home for way less? Head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Wayfair.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less. QUINCE: Find your next Fall favorites at Quince! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too! DELL: Built for those who want better. The Dell XPS, built for you! INDEED: Get a $75 Sponsored Job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Indeed.com/PODCAST⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Carruthers?

  I thought I had a pretty good idea of where my money was going. And then I started using Monarch. And it turns out, there's a big difference between thinking, you know, and actually seeing it all laid out in front of you. I've spent some time with Monarch now. I've connected everything and really tested it out. And I like it a lot. Your accounts, investments, savings goals, spending, they're all there in one place. But what really got my attention is Monarch doesn't just show you what's happened. It helps you spot what's happening right now. They have an AI weekly recap, and it can flag a spending spike or a change in your net worth or upcoming expenses,

• 0:44Mike Carruthers?

  things that are surprisingly easy to miss on your own. And I found that once you actually see the numbers, you look at your money differently. If you've ever wondered, where exactly is all my money going? I think you'll find Monarch pretty eye opening. Write your own money story with Monarch. Use code SYSK at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code SYSK.

• 1:22Mike Carruthers?

  Why do you believe some people almost instantly, while others make you skeptical, even when they seem to know what they're talking about? We like to think credibility comes from expertise, experience, and having the facts on your side. And those things certainly matter. But it turns out there are other, less obvious signals that determine whether people trust you and believe what you say. And some of the things we do to make ourselves sound more credible can actually have the opposite effect. Understanding how credibility works is especially important today when we're constantly trying to figure out who and what to believe. And that's why today's SYSK trending topic is, what makes someone credible?

• 2:06Mike Carruthers?

  And how can you be more credible yourself? Stephen Martin has studied the science of influence and persuasion, and he's going to explain what the research reveals about earning people's trust. And we'll get to that right after this. There's probably no better endorsement for a company than this. I keep buying their stuff. That's exactly what's happening with me and Quince. It started with their clothes. I've bought sweaters, polos, pants, jeans, shoes, a belt. And Quince has become one of the first places I look when I need something new to wear. And my wife and son buy from Quince too, all the time.

• 2:48Mike Carruthers?

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• 3:30Mike Carruthers?

  We shop at Quince, and I absolutely recommend you try it. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, please let them know it was something you should know. It's the best way to support our show.

• 4:00Mike Carruthers?

  Have you ever wondered why you're more likely to believe some people and less likely to believe others? What is it that makes some people more credible or appealing or likable? This is such a fascinating topic because we like to believe, or I like to believe, that I'm a good judge of character, that I can tell when someone is believable and trustworthy and worth listening to. But there's a lot going on under the surface. Stephen Martin has been studying this for quite a while. He's a researcher, a visiting professor of behavioral science at Columbia University. And he's the author of a new book on the topic called, Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don't, and Why.

• 4:44Mike Carruthers?

  Hi, Stephen. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Well, thank you, Mike. It's good to join you.

• 4:49Mike Carruthers?

  I love this topic because I have long thought that there's something to this whole idea of why we listen to who we listen to. How did you get interested in this?

• 5:00Speaker 01

  I've been working in the behavioral sciences and persuasion sciences for a number of years. And we often kind of get together our organization, you know, little lunchtime meetings. And we talk about situations that occur in everyday life that just don't seem to make sense, you know. So one of them is this situation, I think, that many of us will have faced, where you have an idea and you go tell someone about that idea, maybe a colleague at work or a friend or a neighbor. And they look at you in that strange way as if you're talking crazy. And then you find out a couple of days later that someone else has come along with the exact same idea that you've had. And those same people are now enthusiastically embracing it. And we kind of thought, well, that's interesting, isn't it?

• 5:44Speaker 01

  That someone can say something and it be dismissed. Someone else can come along and say the exact same thing and it be accepted. It can't be the content of the message. You know, we're often told that in order to get, you know, our message heard, in order for someone to believe us, we need a good case to make. But what we're finding increasingly, I think, in society is, who delivers the message is sometimes as important, and actually, in certain cases, Mike, even more important than the merits of what's actually being said. And that intrigued me. And so we started looking at it a couple of years ago and unearthed this trove of research.

• 6:28Mike Carruthers?

  And if you had to boil down that trove of research into a couple of sentences or a generalization, what is it?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  I think the generalization would be increasingly, looking and sounding right is often more important than actually being right.

• 6:42Mike Carruthers?

  Well, and I think we all sort of know that on a fundamental level of, you know, if someone were to tell you something and they're dressed in rags and their speech isn't particularly good, isn't going to hold much water with you versus if a guy in a beautiful suit and, you know, was very articulate, said the same thing. I mean, we all have a sense that that guy's going to be much more persuasive than the other guy. But it's more than that, right?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Well, it is. And that's a really neat example. You know, when you say those words, "we have a sense", that's what a lot of the research that we've uncovered and studies of our own have actually found, that some of the inferences that we're making in deciding who we should listen to and who we shouldn't are occurring within milliseconds. You know, there's a feature or a characteristic of a messenger that just seems to connect with us in some way. And we almost instantaneously start to believe and want to listen to what they have to say, again, regardless of its truth or wisdom. So that "have a sense" that you've just used, that terminology is exactly right.

• 7:54Mike Carruthers?

  And is it subjective or objective? In other words, do I have my own criteria for who I'm more likely to believe? Or are there objective criteria that make someone believable to everyone?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Well, essentially, what our research finds is that there are certain innate characteristics that a messenger is able to signal to an audience that immediately puts them in a position where they're more likely to be listened to. And those innate characteristics are largely divided into two groups. There are societies' hard messengers, and they're the messengers that typically an audience would see as having some sort of status over them. And as a result of that elevated status, they're more inclined to be listened to. And there are messengers in contrast that are softer. They have a connectedness with their audience. And it seems to me that increasingly,

• 8:52Speaker 01

  what we are using to determine who to listen to is, are these cues? You know, does this person have some form of status? Do they have some sort of connection? And as a result, that might incline me to infer all sorts of things about them that will increase the chances that I'll listen to them.

• 9:08Mike Carruthers?

  So you've identified exactly what these traits are. So let's go over them.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Our research finds there are four hard messenger traits. Those messenger traits are socioeconomic position, so someone's standing in society. Competence, which is a messenger's ability to be able to convey that they are an expert or they have some perceived expertise. Dominance. Dominant messengers are the kind of personalities that want to win at all costs. They're not interested in collaboration. They're interested in just winning. You know, everything is a game where the victor wins the spoils. And the fourth hard messenger trait is physical attractiveness.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  The idea that a messenger who has features of beauty and attractiveness is more inclined to be listened to. The four soft messenger traits. The first is warmth. So this is a messenger's ability to show that they have some similarity and connection with their audience. They don't seek to exert their status. They communicate their benevolence.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  The second is vulnerability. Certain messengers who perhaps don't have these hard traits are able to be listened to by expressing or signaling some sort of vulnerability they have, some weakness. That allows us to connect or an audience to connect with them. Trustworthiness is the third. Trustworthiness is essentially an audience's perception or confidence in predicting that a messenger has their best interests at heart. Confidence is, trustworthiness rather, is our confidence in predicting others' future behaviour. And the final one is charisma. And charismatic messengers are those communicators who are able to, you know, essentially mobilize

• 11:02Speaker 01

  whole groups of people behind a unifying vision or goal. They use overt hand gestures. They have what psychologists call surgency, you know, a very clear positivity to their communication. So those are the eight traits, four hard, four soft.

• 11:21Mike Carruthers?

  So give me some examples of how in real life this works.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  You know, one of the examples, a pop star, you know, someone that's rich and famous, has that socioeconomic position, starts to communicate via WhatsApp and Facebook information about health, you know, whether or not you should vaccinate your child, whether or not you should get a flu jab. And people start to believe the evidence that they are hawking, despite the fact it's contrary to all the established medical evidence. So there's an example of how someone's position in society inclines audiences to listen to them, regardless of the fact that their information is, in this instance, just fake.

• 12:03Mike Carruthers?

  And there is, I think, somewhat of a backlash. I mean, you often hear people make fun of celebrities who speak out on social issues, not because they know much about those social issues, but because they're celebrities.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  But they're probably celebrities that we don't necessarily like or see some sort of connection with. That's the key there. There's a tribalism to this as well, Mike, you know. There's a study that actually my co-author, Joseph Marx, ran in his laboratory, where they had people come in and they presented people with information. And sometimes the information came from people that they saw as similar to them. And sometimes they were presented with information, the same information, but from someone that was dissimilar to them, but was an expert. And the experiment was really looking at, when we're presented with information, are

• 12:58Speaker 01

  we more inclined to listen to someone who is similar to us but wrong than someone who is correct but dissimilar to us in that instance? And what he found in the research was that actually, people are much more inclined, often, to believe fake news and falsehoods, provided it comes from someone that is actually similar to them. So that's really concerning and unnerving, if you think about it, that we're using these tribal cues to determine who we should listen to, regardless of its truth or wisdom.

• 13:30Mike Carruthers?

  Has that always been, or is this more of a new phenomenon, or is it changing, or what?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think there's probably been the case that it's always been there. But one of the things that I think is certainly now clear to us is that it's increasing in its intensity. And I think the primary reason for that is that we're just inundated with information, Mike. There's so much for us to pay attention to. There's so much information that's directed to us. You know, we simply don't have the time and the mental resources and capacity to work out who is telling the truth and who isn't, who we should listen to and who we should not. And so I think increasingly, Mike, what we're doing is we're using these characteristics,

• 14:18Speaker 01

  these messenger traits, you know, how rich and famous someone is, how dominant they are, how trustworthy they may be. In certain cases, just how attractive they are, to quickly determine whether we can and should pay attention to someone or whether we should just ignore them and get on with our busy lives.

• 14:35Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, I'd like to talk about attractiveness, because it does seem that we're more likely to pay attention to somebody who's beautiful. Stephen Martin is my guest, and the name of his book is Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don't, and Why. A big thank you to today's sponsor, Vinted. I think most of us have what I call "someday clothes." "I'll wear that someday. That'll fit better someday. Someday, I'll have a place to wear that." Meanwhile, it's been hanging in the closet for three years. Vinted offers another possibility: Sell It. Every day, people can sell clothes they're no longer wearing and make some extra money.

• 15:19Mike Carruthers?

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• 15:59Mike Carruthers?

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• 16:06Speaker 02

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• 16:37Mike Carruthers?

  So Stephen, let's talk about attractiveness, and I assume by that you mean objective, physical beauty, as well as how people dress and how people groom themselves. But it does seem that we're more likely to believe those people, we're drawn to these people. Why are we so taken by that?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Well, we're taken by it because attractive, and we're talking about physically attractive messengers here now, have what we call in psychology "mate value." They essentially are attractive to us because we see that there's some evolutionary quality to being with them, to being in some form of relationship. And that seems to have spilled over into modern-day life, you know. There are individuals in society that have been genetically blessed at birth, and as a result, they are afforded an advantage in life, the attractiveness bias. We see it in recruitment, for example.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  You know, as much as they try not to recruit as a human, and they'll often be more inclined to look towards a more attractive applicant than a less attractive or an average-looking applicant, even when their skill sets are the same. So it's an inherent bias within us. And that's how it plays out in everyday life. You know, we look to attractive messengers, so no surprise that they're often used in advertisements. And what's really interesting is that we can even put a price on attractiveness. So economists have estimated that being born attractive is worth about 10% to 12% in additional earnings over a lifetime.

• 18:19Mike Carruthers?

  How important is confidence? It seems to me that if a person sounds like they know what they're talking about and acts like they know what they're talking about, I'm more likely to believe they know what they're talking about.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  You're exactly right about that. When we see a messenger or a communicator that has confidence, it's pretty easy to then start to infer that they have levels of competence as well. Because if you're competent at a task, or knowledgeable or expert about a subject, it kind of makes sense that you would speak confidently about it. And so we see that. We see that connection. We hear someone speak confidently, and we start to make all these inferences that they're probably more competent. But that's not necessarily the case, you know, sometimes. So I think you're exactly right about that.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  That competence and confidence connection is a very real one.

• 19:21Mike Carruthers?

  So explain how trustworthiness works in this.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  It's pretty hard sometimes to work out accurately who we should pay attention to and who we shouldn't. And so if we see cues of trustworthiness in an individual, that might incline us to listen more to them as well. And trustworthiness is an interesting one, because sometimes communicators and messengers are able to increase our perception of their trustworthiness by admitting drawbacks and weaknesses about the things they're talking about. They signal that kind of weakness, and as a result, we make some sort of inference that the very next thing they're going to say is more truthful, more trustworthy.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  So that's an interesting one to me. But what's particularly interesting is this idea that I do think that we often fall into the trap of confusing trustworthiness with truthfulness. They're clearly not the same thing. And we've found in the research, Mike, situations where messengers can actually lie outwardly to an audience, and their trustworthiness levels to certain groups actually goes up in those instances. So we do confuse those two.

• 20:42Mike Carruthers?

  If you know some of this stuff, if you know any of this stuff, does it help you overcome it, or it just is what it is?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yes, a really good question. I the the answer I'd like to give is that knowing more about these traits will defend you all of the time. But I can't really give that as an answer because the fact is, you know, we are, you know, so overwhelmed with information that a lot of this, you know, a lot of these traits are, you know, we rely on them so much that we often don't notice them. Um, so I'd like to think that, you know, if you, uh, you know, read a little bit more about these traits, perhaps read the book or even do the test and find out what type of messenger you are, uh, you can defend yourself. Uh, but I'm, I'm, I'm skeptical that you're going to be able to defend yourself all of

• 21:35Speaker 01

  the time. Um, but knowing a little bit about these traits, a little more about these traits and how they operate and how we often fall foul of certain messengers in society, I think that's got to be a, a good thing overall.

• 21:46Mike Carruthers?

  So we draw conclusions, we make assumptions, judgments about people based on just one of these single traits?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Based on a single trait. As a result of seeing that trait, we start to think, well, there's probably lots of other things I don't like about this person or wouldn't believe about this person. So, you know, classic example, when we meet someone, uh, maybe in a cocktail party or at, uh, you know, a conference, you know, and we come to learn that the person we've just met knows someone that we also know, and we like that person. It's very easy then to, to think, well, because this person knows someone that I like, this person's probably likable too. So you've got that kind of halo effect that's actually going on. And, and of course, that also works in reverse. We might meet someone at a cocktail party, find that we have someone in common that we dislike, that I dislike.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  It's very easy for the, for me then to make some inference that I, I dislike this person. So not only are we using these traits in, in a singular way to determine who we should listen to or not, once we see one of them, it's very easy, very easy for us to then start to make, you know, all sorts of inferences about other things about them as well, um, that have nothing to do with that initial trait. That's the really, um, kind of interesting and, and, and, and surprising thing here.

• 23:06Mike Carruthers?

  Well, as soon as you said that, it just makes all the sense in the world because, yeah, if I meet somebody and we both know Bob, well, now I like you better because you know somebody I know and, and I like Bob and you like Bob, so I must like you.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. But if you dislike Bob?

• 23:23Mike Carruthers?

  I don't like you much either.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  I don't like, you don't like me much either. Exactly.

• 23:28Mike Carruthers?

  So how can you, if you can, how can you take this knowledge that you have and then become more appealing, more attractive, more trustworthy? How do you do that?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Some of these traits are innate. So it's, you know, it's, it's kind of quite difficult to make yourself considerably more physically attractive. Dominance, which is another one of the hard traits, seems to be a dispositional personality trait. But there are certain things that we can do that increase, and importantly, increase in a, you know, a legitimate way, you know, so it's, it's not about, you know, um, pulling the wool over people's eyes and, and, and unethically manipulating people. But there are certain things that we can do. So it's possible, for example, to become more charismatic. Uh, there are certain things that you can do. There's training you can undertake to

• 24:22Speaker 01

  become more charismatic, and we know from the research that charismatic messengers are more inclined to be listened to. There are things we can do to ensure that our competence is properly signaled. You know, I did a study in London a few years ago where we got real estate agents to arrange for their expertise to be introduced before they spoke to a client, uh, rather than them talking about their expertise to the client directly. So it's, it's pretty hard to be, you know, in a position where you say, well, I'm an expert, this is why you should listen to me. But if someone else does it, then that seems to be fine. That elevates people's perception of your competence and your trustworthiness. So there

• 25:06Speaker 01

  are certain things that we can do, but I think it's also important in balance to also point out that there are certain things that are just inbuilt here. Um, you know, dominance, for example, as I, as I, as I said, uh, is, is largely, uh, an innate characteristic, uh, attractiveness too.

• 25:25Mike Carruthers?

  And when you meet somebody or you watch somebody and you see somebody and one of those things grabs you, one of those eight things grabs you, is that your anchor now? Is that, that is now who I think this person is? And is it hard to move from that?

• 25:42Speaker 01

  That's exactly what's happening there, Mike. Yeah. Uh, because in that short period of time when you meet someone, you, you, you want to be in a situation where you can say, is this person on my side? Am I going to benefit from knowing this person? Should I be listening to them? Are they a threat to me? You know, does it make sense for me to listen to them, to follow their advice, to engage with them? These are really, really difficult questions to answer. And so we will use one or other of these traits to very, very quickly, often within milliseconds, decide whether or not I listen or whether I ignore.

• 26:19Mike Carruthers?

  So it, it sounds like, from what you're saying, that, you know, when, when we are trying to make an impression, make a presentation, make, make ourselves likable, whatever, it isn't really who you are, it isn't what you say, it's how you're perceived.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  It is. It's all about perception. You're, you're exactly right. Um, there's, there's lots of examples we found, uh, both in the book and in, in the research where it's the perception of a characteristic that's actually carried sway. Um, you know, here's one bizarre example. There was a, there was a report in a, an American hospital where an individual, a patient, who was complaining of a painful ear, a, a middle ear infection this patient had. And so the nurse called the duty doctor, the doctor came and examined the patient,

• 27:18Speaker 01

  um, saw that the patient had an inflamed middle ear and prescribed some anti-inflammatory ear drops. And you think, okay, there's nothing strange about that whatsoever. Seems like a perfectly rational course of treatment. Except the doctor then, on the prescription pad, instead of writing fully, place three drops in the patient's ear, abbreviated the word right. And the abbreviation in, in medical terms for the word right is simply the letter R, capital letter R. So the prescription pad now reads, place three drops in patient's R ear or rear.

• 27:55Mike Carruthers?

  [laughing]

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Now that makes, that makes no sense whatsoever. But this is a doctor and the doctor is a competent messenger. That's what we're trained to believe. We, you know, they, they even have the stethoscope and, and the white coat to prove it. And so that's exactly what the nurse does. The, the nurse perceives that to be the right thing, um, and, you know, asks the patients to basically adopt the position and administers these drops. It makes no sense whatsoever, except when you consider it in the context of these messenger effects. When a competent messenger or someone perceived to be competent speaks, what would otherwise make no sense whatsoever, you know, suddenly becomes something that might need

• 28:42Speaker 01

  to be paid attention to. So, so you're exactly right. It's, it's about perceived traits. They don't necessarily have to be real. We just spot them and we act accordingly.

• 28:53Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it's so interesting because I think we like to think that it's our message that is most important, that if we have a strong message, people will believe us, listen to us. And clearly, there's so much more to it than that. Stephen Martin has been my guest. He is a visiting professor of behavioral science at Columbia University, and his book is called Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don't, and Why. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Thanks for joining me, Stephen.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Thanks, Mike.

• 29:23Mike Carruthers?

  And that's all for today's SYSK Trending episode. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening to Something You Should Know.