The First Rule of Mastery: Dr. Michael Gervais On How To Stop Worrying About What People Think of You

Obsessive worry about what others think of you may keep you safe—but it will also keep you small. In our evolutionary past, belonging to a tribe was crucial for survival, as rejection posed a near-death peril. Although societal dynamics have evolved, our brains still assess how others perceive us, giving rise to the Fear of People’s Opinions. The crux of the fear hinges on the learned behavior of identifying ourselves as separate selves—masquerading like we are individuals in a social world—rather than recognizing that we are social animals who have learned to identify as separate selves. Here to guide our dance through this carnival of life is Dr. Michael Gervais. Dr. Gervais, a leading expert in human performance psychology, returns for his fifth appearance to discuss his new book, The First Rule of Mastery: Stop Worrying About What People Think of You, which is all about liberating yourself from the opinions of others. The rubric is to turn the spotlight inward, understand your purpose and values, and create a structure that aligns with them, muting the extraneous noise of the outside world. With decades of experience in high-stakes environments, Dr. Gervais is toppling the pathologized psychology model. His clients include the NFL’s Seattle Seahawks, Olympic medalists, MVPs from major sports, world record holders, musicians, and corporate leaders. Beyond this, he hosts the instructive Finding Mastery Podcast and has been featured by every major media outlet. Today’s conversation delves into Dr. Gervais’ transition from working with athletes to corporate leaders, emphasizing the power of vision and imagination, mental skills, the pervasive Fear of People’s Opinions, and the profound concept of purpose. I hope this conversation proves educational and formative on your intellectual journey. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Timeline Nutrition: TimelineNutrition.com/RICHROLL Squarespace: Squarespace.com/RICHROLL Momentous: livemomentous.com/RICHROLL Go Brewing: GoBrewing.com/RICHROLL Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:06Michael Gervais?

  We are capable of so much more. Let's figure out how to unlock the best of our people.

• 1:11Rich Roll?

  Today, my friend, host of the fantastic Finding Mastery podcast, Dr. Michael Gervais, returns. To Mike, the single greatest constrictor of human potential is fear of other people's opinions.

• 1:26Michael Gervais?

  We're masquerading like we are individuals in a social world. It starts with, I think, your relationship with yourself.

• 1:33Rich Roll?

  This thesis is more fully articulated in his fantastic first book, The First Rule of Mastery.

• 1:41Michael Gervais?

  The process of using one's imagination is a real powerhouse. It's a fundamental commitment to work from the inside out. You can do it on your own. It's harder.

• 1:52Rich Roll?

  If you are a chronic people-pleaser like myself, or you're just looking to lead a more self-actualized, high-performance life, this one is appointment listening.

• 2:03Michael Gervais?

  You can think about you as an individual. Who do you want to become?

• 2:06Rich Roll?

  Are you actually asking me that question right now?

• 2:09Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 2:19Rich Roll?

  So good to see you.

• 2:21Michael Gervais?

  Oh, it's great to be here.

• 2:22Rich Roll?

  It's been a minute.

• 2:23Michael Gervais?

  It has been.

• 2:24Rich Roll?

  I think this is the fifth time that you've done the show, though.

• 2:27Michael Gervais?

  I need to start with something, though.

• 2:28Rich Roll?

  Oh, no.

• 2:29Michael Gervais?

  I've been wanting to say this.

• 2:29Rich Roll?

  You do this every time.

• 2:30Michael Gervais?

  No, I do. I've been wanting to say this to you. There are a handful of people that fundamentally shape your life. And it was an experience that you created where you earnestly said, I want to ask you some questions. And there's this thing called the podcast. And so I was like, oh, that sounds good. But the way that you shaped our first conversation, the first time we met, was honest, it was curious. You are exceptional in what you do, but the way you created that space, I felt seen and understood and valued, and it was awesome. And so I said from that moment, I said, I want to create that same experience for other people, my friends. And so here we are, eight years later, with the Foddy Mastery Podcast.

• 3:15Michael Gervais?

  And you are one of those people that have changed my trajectory. So I want to say thank you.

• 3:20Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that. What you've built is, is really impressive and inspirational in its own right.

• 3:26Michael Gervais?

  That's fun.

• 3:27Rich Roll?

  And, you know, I remember that first experience and I think it was like, it was so early in my journey with all of this. And I was just excited to meet you and that you said yes. You know, I think I read an outside article about you and I was like, who's this guy? Like, I want to meet this guy. I figured out how to reach out to you and you actually agreed to do it. So I was thrilled.

• 3:47Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, right. Oh, that's fun. I didn't know that.

• 3:50Rich Roll?

  And it ended up being a meaningful experience for me as well, as well as for the audience. And then you reached out and you're like, tell me more about this podcasting thing. And I don't know how many years ago that was.

• 4:01Michael Gervais?

  I think it was like 2012.

• 4:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 4:04Michael Gervais?

  So maybe 2013.

• 4:06Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 4:07Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 4:08Rich Roll?

  Longer than that, more than a decade.

• 4:10Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, that's pretty cool.

• 4:11Rich Roll?

  Which is cool. And not only did you go off and, and build this amazing podcast, a lot of people say they're going to start a podcast, and a lot of people do. Very few stick with it, but it is impressive. And on top of that, you've created all of these other kind of tentacles that are ancillary and related to what you do on the podcast, not the least of which is reaching out into the corporate world. I think when I first met you, you were operating out of like a sports medicine clinic in Marina Del Rey.

• 4:43Michael Gervais?

  That's right.

• 4:44Rich Roll?

  And today, I think, how many people do you employ? Like 25, 30 people?

• 4:49Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, it's about 30, about 30 folks.

• 4:50Rich Roll?

  You're doing events all over the world, and your focus has expanded from individual athletes, Olympians, and professional sports teams to working with Fortune 500 companies and helping them learn about leadership and team building. So I guess I'm interested in what the parallels and differences are between those two worlds as somebody who kind of entered into this high-performance niche of psychology focused entirely on athletes from the beginning to now doing something that's not qualitatively different, but I would imagine in many ways distinguishable from those earlier days.

• 5:30Michael Gervais?

  So let's just like pull back the curtain a little bit. Early on, I needed to understand psychology. As a young 16-year-old athlete, like I needed it. I didn't understand how to get free when game day was happening. I didn't understand how to have access to my skills. And so, you know, the term choking. So I literally, no athletes have ever choked because we don't eat while we're performing. So there's no real choking.

• 5:56Rich Roll?

  I'll remember that.

• 5:57Michael Gervais?

  That's a bad joke. Okay, we'll just stay there for a minute. But we do choke off access to our abilities. And that is really how the mind can work. It can choke off your ability to get free, to express, to go for it, to get on the edge, to be okay with however it goes. So I needed to understand how the best in the world do that, how they get free. How they become their very best, sometimes the best in the world. And that led me down the path of studying the psychology of sport or the psychology of excellence. And then come to find out, after working 20 plus years with those folks, there's this thing that happens in leadership. And in leadership, they're as interested in being their very best,

• 6:40Michael Gervais?

  but equally, if not more important, is creating the right culture and the right systems for their people to be their very best. So that was the beginnings of the crosswalk from sport, from team, if you will. So it started individual, then it went to team. Then it started working with coaches and GMs and ownership and management. And then that was the crosswalk into leadership in business. The parallel in the crosswalk is pretty rich.

• 7:07Rich Roll?

  And so now you have these large events and you're working with large teams, like Microsoft, I know you're public about like working with them. And that seems like a very immersive relationship that goes all the way to the top, to the CEO, down through the various departments and working with department heads and how they create culture and kind of alignment in terms of purpose, which is a theme in the book that we're going to get to. Do you find that there's more overlap between working with athletes and like team leaders in corporations than one might suspect on first glance?

• 7:44Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, that's a fun conversation to have because initially, what I would have thought would have made a great athlete would not make a great leader in a corporate setting. However, there are certain skills that do translate. And so some of those similarities are clarity of vision. So athletes make a fundamental decision on how they're going to organize their life and go for the thing that matters to them. It's the fundamental decision that happens post-vision. So it starts with using your imagination in a way to create an amazing future, the thing that you want to co-create or bring into the world. Doesn't have to be about yourself.

• 8:28Michael Gervais?

  Athletes tend to think a little bit more about themselves. But the idea of it starting with a vision, then making fundamental decisions to build the capacities, the necessary skills to make that happen, that's kind of the basic mechanics. And so I don't even want to lose track that The process of using one's imagination is a real powerhouse. And if we don't invest in it, it can run wild and we lead to anxiety and depression and other ailments that take place with an unexamined, uncultivated way of using one's mind. And when you invest in it and cultivate and harness and garden your own inner world,

• 9:11Michael Gervais?

  you can have a sense of freedom and you can achieve extraordinary outcomes. So it does begin in some respects with the vision that you create.

• 9:19Rich Roll?

  It would seem that in the corporate context, imagination is something that's under indexed on. You know what I mean? It's not like-

• 9:28Michael Gervais?

  I think for many people, maybe not you, but for many of us.

• 9:31Rich Roll?

  Really, do we really want our workers spending a lot of time indulging in their imaginations? What we need them to do is X, Y, Z and perform and hit these metrics.

• 9:41Michael Gervais?

  Okay, so that is the extraction model. The origins of that is like the industrial revolution. Sit on this conveyor belt and do this thing repeatedly and do it faster. And so I'm going to extract the best of you. It started there and then it moved into something a little bit more cognitive and mental in the way that people are leading and thinking, using their mind rather than just kind of a widget on a conveyor belt. And what we ended up doing to folks for many years is extracting the best of them at the cost of knowing their family, at the cost of living the full life with flourishing and a sense of zest. And so they gave into the company rather than pouring into their loved ones. So the extraction model is going the way of the dodo.

• 10:23Michael Gervais?

  And we're moving to the unlock, where the best and deepest and brightest cultivators like Satya Nadella at Microsoft is that they're saying, no, the potential lies dormant in our people. So let's figure out, and this is his remit to me and the company, Finding Mastery, let's figure out how to unlock the best of our people. Where there's purpose, they know their purpose, we know our purpose, we align purposes. Where we help them understand how to be calm, how to have a sense of energy inside of themselves to meet the demands of the moment. Where they know how to have a sense of optimism about what could be, instead of being whipped around by the thrashing of the external world and all the dangers that ensue and all the

• 11:07Michael Gervais?

  risks and stresses and pressures. Let's work from the inside out. And so that is basically taking the psychology of excellence and cascading it through an organization. That's new leadership. That's modern leadership. Understanding how to apply psychology. Because it's no longer the extraction and don't think. The new language of programming is human language. All the coding that's happening is changing, right? It's no longer Python and this, that and the other. We're all going to be coders here in the next five years. And it's the way that we use our thoughts and our words, and if they can align with our actions, we've got something very powerful. And so we are literally coding the future as we go.

• 11:49Michael Gervais?

  And if people are unfulfilled and unfurished, I don't know if we're going to get to the place we want to go to.

• 11:56Rich Roll?

  Well, certainly, it's a better long-term strategy. And it begins with a change in how you relate to an employee, not as a fungible object that can be replaced like a widget on a conveyor belt, but as a fully fleshed out human being with all their own desires and fears and motivations, et cetera. How do you create a culture where people are excited to come to work and they feel like they can do their best work and flourish and they're seen for who they are? Which is a fundamental shift in kind of how the workplace operates. And you see it when you go into forward-leaning companies and you can taste it and smell it and see it. It's very palpable. Like I was in...

• 12:39Rich Roll?

  Zurich not too long ago, and I went to the headquarters for ON, On Running. It was a big partner of ours. I think you've done some stuff with them.

• 12:46Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, we did.

• 12:46Rich Roll?

  And it's just extraordinary when you go into a place like that and everyone is working, you know, at a different level. They're totally engaged with what they're doing. You can sense that they feel empowered and that they have agency over, you know, certain like areas of decision making that make them feel very connected to the work that they're doing. And it's inspiring to see that. And it shifts fundamentally how, you know, kind of whatever conventional perception you have about the workplace and supplants that like cubicle idea with a whole new idea of what a workplace can be.

• 13:22Michael Gervais?

  You're feeling exactly the thing that I'm talking about. You can get there by accident. You know, like that can happen, but that's not my experience. It's like really intentional and very thoughtful. And let's say 1980, executive team would get together, maybe a, you know, big firm consultancy would come in and they'd shape their culture and they'd have their values and they would have their mission and purpose. And they'd put them on, you know, big stickers on walls, right? Or maybe even make them some sort of emblem on, on whatever. So words in the hallways is not how it works. Like words on walls is not how this works. That's good. It's the beginnings of wanting to create something special. But the leaders really become chief repeating officers about what

• 14:04Michael Gervais?

  we're pointing toward, being honest about leading from the values and virtues that the organization has established to be important. And then having the real resource of psychological skills be part of the rhythm of business. Let me map back. That last piece is significant. Big sport is about 10 to 15 years ahead of big business. Right? So in big sport, elite sport. 10 to 15 years ago, let's go 15 years ago. You can go 50 years back, even to modern times. And you ask a coach or an athlete, is the mental part of the game important? And what do they say?

• 14:42Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 14:43Michael Gervais?

  Of course it is. And then 15 years ago, okay, so what are you doing to invest in it? And they'd say, well, we've, we've got a sports psych now. Like you're across the hall or across the town. And I think some athletes, you know, go to him or her.

• 14:56Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Or that's where they go when they fall off a cliff.

• 15:00Michael Gervais?

  That was like 15 years ago.

• 15:01Rich Roll?

  And it's crisis management.

• 15:02Michael Gervais?

  Right.

• 15:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:03Michael Gervais?

  Okay. So then go like 10 years ago. Yeah, it's the same question, is it important? They go, yeah, yeah, of course. And we've actually got someone in the building. That's not good enough. It's good, but not good enough. And now it's up to leadership to say, hey, this is rad. This is a competitive advantage. Invest in you. We see you as a full person. Go get this thing. It's going to show up on the field. It's going to show up at home. Like, go invest in you. We want you to be your very best.

• 15:29Rich Roll?

  But the onus is still on the individual to take that up.

• 15:33Michael Gervais?

  That's right. So leadership creates air cover. And if they do that right, you get a little bit of backfill from the athletes or the individuals to go invest extra. Okay, now what's happening? If you pull back the curtain on an elite performing organization in sport, psychology is in the rhythm of business. It's in the hallways. It's in practice. It's folded into, to the way weights are moved, the way that bodies are moved during practice. It's in film room. It's on the sidelines. It's on the bus. It's folded into the rhythm of business. And that's where we're pointing, hopefully, for modern business, is to put it in the rhythm of business.

• 16:12Rich Roll?

  And what does that look like specifically? Like, my only kind of cultural reference point is watching Billions and seeing that character who has her office in there and all the traders come in and she helps them, you know, sort of get their heads straight so that they can be high performers. And she certainly plays a crucial role, like she's indispensable in their success equation. But in the context of something like Microsoft or these other companies that you're working with, like, is there somebody who's stationed there all the time? Like, how do you weave that in so that it just is a piece with their workday and part of the culture? Like, on some level, you're performing a bit of an inception, right?

• 16:54Rich Roll?

  Because it's one thing for the boss to say, this is our purpose. And then you have people who are like, look, man, this is just my job. Like, you want me to tell you that that's my purpose too? Fine, I'll tell you that. But like, is it really?

• 17:05Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, right. My purpose is really my family. And I'm just here to make some money. That's where you start to get some breakdown in things. And that's okay. That is really okay if that's the case for the person. Your point is well taken, or your question is well taken, which is like, how does it really work? The Billions model is cool. It's working with the influencers and the decision makers at the head of the organization. And it's still kind of a one-off model. Like, go into that wonderful room that's a little scary, you know?

• 17:32Rich Roll?

  And it's still like a therapeutic session.

• 17:34Michael Gervais?

  That's right. That's good, not great. So what great is, this is my bias, of course, right? Is that what I was able to do with the Seattle Seahawks and the head coach, Coach Carroll, is we would work the coaches. So the coaches would be hydrated with psychological skills themselves. And then the extension is we'd show them, or I would show them, how to pass that on to their athletes. So no longer, like, old sports psychology is, I'll tell you the story. When I first got, my first team I was part of, head coach goes, this is gonna be great. I got someone for you to work with. And I'll tell you what, if you can make a difference, it was hockey. If you can make a difference with him, whoo, like, man, we'll be a lot better.

• 18:18Michael Gervais?

  And huh, like, if you could make a difference. I didn't realize this was the quote unquote head case across, that's how they thought of this athlete. High talent, extraordinarily gifted, good work ethic, but just couldn't quite figure out how to get free and be confident. And there was that choking thing I was talking about. And then because of that tension, they thrash. That's what happens. Like, when you're unsettled, you know this better than anybody. You start to thrash and relationships are compromised and you're caught in a little bit of a swirl in the culture, if you will. And you can't get those noses and toes pointed in the same direction. So I was like, okay, put me in, coach. Like, oh, great. So now I'm walking down the hallway with that person and the other athletes and everyone else in the organization was like, oh, if you're talking to Gervais.

• 19:04Michael Gervais?

  I guess you're a head case.

• 19:05Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 19:06Michael Gervais?

  That's old. That can't work anymore.

• 19:08Rich Roll?

  It's pathologized.

• 19:09Michael Gervais?

  That's right. So then a little bit better is like when the coach says, look, I want you to work with the absolute best. And he's excited or she's excited. And now you start to pair sports psychology with competitive advantage, you know, leading from the front. If you're not doing that, you're kind of getting left behind a little bit. So that's a bit better. The ideal mechanism is when the coaches or the leaders in the organization understand how to practice five mental skills, let's say. And they know how to teach and translate those. These are basic. These are not complex. Breathing is not complex. There's some complexity to the actual mechanics, but teaching it is not hard to do.

• 19:52Michael Gervais?

  But carving out three minutes at the top of agenda for your organization to down regulate, that is an exponential moment for organizations to do it across a company. We're going to down regulate for three minutes, let's say, across 200,000 people in our organization three times a day. Oh, competitive advantage hit. And so that's what we're doing at the Seattle Seahawks, is working with the coaches, making sure that they were well hydrated with psychological skills, and they knew how to translate it and pass it on to the athletes.

• 20:23Rich Roll?

  Right. And so now you're laying that template in a corporate landscape and doing something similar.

• 20:28Michael Gervais?

  Yeah. And what's happening in the corporate world is that we have invisible limits. We have blind spots. We have things that, because we're so mired in the culture, that it's hard to see them. And so one of the great gifts that somebody outside of yourself can give you is like, hey, have you ever noticed? Like, what do you think? Like, could this be something that's a little bit of a struggle for you? Like, oh, yeah, like, we've been banging our heads on that for a while. Oh, okay. Well, here's a way to think about maybe solving that. And then we backfill it with psychological skills. So it's like, It's not, again, it's not complicated, but humans are complex.

• 21:12Rich Roll?

  But it is a total reframe. If you're walking into a conventional organization where, you know, basically the employees underneath a certain department head are being driven almost entirely by making sure that their jobs are in good stead and that they have the approval of the department head and are kind of acquitting their responsibilities in accordance with those expectations, irrespective of whether they think it's a good idea or not. And that kind of calcifies any kind of evolution of a corporate entity, right? I would think that that's like a major peril for most companies when they reach a certain size and scale.

• 21:52Michael Gervais?

  That's where, you know, the reinventing is really important and constantly staying on that front edge of who are we becoming? And are we being honest with the resources we're providing people? And you can think about you as an individual, who do you want to become?

• 22:07Rich Roll?

  Who do I want to become? Are you actually asking me that question right now?

• 22:10Michael Gervais?

  I thought about like just letting it be rhetoric and then I saw your eyes light up and I thought, let me just pause. Yeah. Who do you want to become?

• 22:17Rich Roll?

  I don't want to derail your point. We can circle back to that.

• 22:20Michael Gervais?

  But so you can ask it as an individual and then you can also ask it at the team level or the organizational level. And that's, that starts with like using your imagination. Who are you working on becoming? And without that, without a vision or a set of bellwethers to be able to know if you're lining up your thoughts, words and actions in alignment with that purpose or that vision, the external world will own you. It will pull you. It will stress you. It will create distractions. If we don't know how to work from the inside out, we will play and live life on the terms of other people. And that's really dangerous. And I think that people are tired of it.

• 23:03Michael Gervais?

  That's the great opportunity, I think, right now for people is to say, who do you want to become? Backfill it with the psychological skills to help you be about it. And then do what athletes do every day is amongst and with people that are wanting to take their job, their friends, their peers, and somebody that wants their position on the team and coaches that determine if they're going to get playtime or not, that every day they are going to the messy edge.

• 23:34Michael Gervais?

  At that place where they could fall into a thousand pieces, or unlock something special, and they go there every day amongst those that want their job, know what's good, what's ugly, what's not acceptable, even in front of people that can decide, you're with us or you're not. The NFL stands for not for long. And what they do, not really, but what those athletes do is a radical risk-taking every day, incredibly vulnerable. And we look at them and think like, they're kind of born that way. But we don't do that. We don't go every day and get to our emotional edge. We play it safe. We play it small. We get busy as opposed to intentional. We lie to ourself and numb ourself.

• 24:18Michael Gervais?

  And we stay on the surface rather than going to the places that they go, which is right at that edge where they could fall apart, or be just right in the presence of a slipstream of unlocking something special, the next level of their expression. That is to be regarded.

• 24:42Rich Roll?

  In order to foster a culture or an environment that is not only permissive for people to walk up to that edge, but actually encourages it is a special thing, right? And that's almost like a hat trick in the corporate world, right? How do you create a culture where there isn't a fear of reprisal? If you extend yourself perhaps beyond your remit to do something special or to express your purpose and feel safe in doing that, like there's a safety net and that this is something that's encouraged rather than discouraged?

• 25:21Michael Gervais?

  When you said hat trick, do you mean like you scored three goals?

• 25:23Rich Roll?

  I just mean, I mean like a very difficult thing to accomplish or achieve.

• 25:28Michael Gervais?

  Oh, I think you're spot on. And we say in the corporate world, we, you know, people say, fail fast, fail forward, fail often, failure is where you learn. But

• 25:39Rich Roll?

  That's not reality.

• 25:40Michael Gervais?

  No.

• 25:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, if they do that, they'll be, you know, taken to task for it.

• 25:44Michael Gervais?

  That's right. And in sport, that's what practice is really about, getting to that edge. Two stories here, I asked an Olympian. Looks like she's going to be competing in 2024 in Paris. So she was in Olympia last year, she remade the team. And I said, what is a great practice for you? And she says, oh, very clearly, top of the tongue, she says, knowing what I need to get better at. So every practice she goes into her day, getting to the edge, to see where things break down, to know what she needs to get better at. So if I were to ask you, I don't want to put you on the spot, but if I were to ask somebody like you, what do you need to get better at? And again, it's not necessarily how athletes do what they do, because that is pretty special, how they move,

• 26:29Michael Gervais?

  but the intentionality to be very clear about what they're working on getting better at. And if I were to say physically, let's play the game. I can use me in this as well. And I say, where's the pain in your body? And you'd say, I don't know, my left hip? Where's the pain in your body? I have no idea.

• 26:45Rich Roll?

  My lower back.

• 26:46Michael Gervais?

  Low back, right? And I say, how are you working on your low back? You'd say.

• 26:50Rich Roll?

  I have a couple of practitioners that I see and a whole series of exercises that I do and all kinds of proactive sort of little things that I do throughout the day to ameliorate the pain and, you know.

• 27:03Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, and you've got a plan.

• 27:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Michael Gervais?

  And you're working it. And then I say, great. Emotionally or mentally, what are you working on?

• 27:11Rich Roll?

  Hmm, oh, so many things.

• 27:13Michael Gervais?

  Okay, so pause.

• 27:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Michael Gervais?

  It just feels different to talk about it. We're still in that kind of place where it's a little bit more, it's definitely more invisible. The world of psychology is invisible. But didn't it feel just a little different to say, oh, I'm working on less depression, less anxiety, more joy, whatever it might be? Did it feel that way for you?

• 27:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's definitely a little bit more constriction. And I say that as somebody who's pretty open about this stuff. Like, most people aren't. I have no problem telling you, like, oh, you know, I need to work on being a better friend, or I need to let go of my perfectionism. And like, I succumb to, you know, all manner of the things that you talk about in this book to this day. You know, like, like, this was written for me in so many ways. Like, how do I divorce myself from so many of the lures that I know are leading me astray? And at times I feel powerless to combat. Like, I'm comfortable even publicly talking about this kind of stuff, but I'm also very aware that that is not the usual case with most people.

• 28:09Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, so just getting. Heroes like you in the world that are the cool kids waving their arms saying, "Hey, I'm working physically and I'm working on the emotional side and both matter to me and I can talk about both and I have a plan to work both." That's what great athletes do is they're clear about what they want to unlock and get better at and they have a plan to back it up, whether it's technical, physical, or mental. And then the failing thing to your earlier point, you know, I was with Formula One for a handful of years and new leader comes in, new managing director comes into the team, has 500 of the brightest engineers, you know, as part of the team and he's addressing the full team.

• 28:51Michael Gervais?

  And these are engineers and computer scientists and, and, and from MIT and Harvard and like brilliant minds behind the scenes of the driver. And so he addresses his vision, he addresses how he wants to go about creating a culture and what he thinks the reasonable goals are and the lofty goals and has this beautiful kind of moment, because it's called 30 minutes on the factory floor, sharing it all. And people nod, you know. And then one engineer stands and he claps a little bit longer than everyone else and people are starting to walk away and he's got a little slow clap and he's looking at the new boss. And the boss makes eye contact with him. And the boss says,

• 29:37Michael Gervais?

  "What's going on?"

• 29:39Rich Roll?

  Like a slow clap, like a mocking slow clap?

• 29:42Michael Gervais?

  Yeah. He says, "Yeah." And the engineer says, "Those are good words."

• 29:48Michael Gervais?

  And so the leader says to me, he goes, "I knew right then I had to be about it because I was going to be called out, I was going to be held to a standard. I needed to lead from authenticity." So he goes into the post-first race. And after the first race, fail fast, fail forward, fail often, da, da, da, da. He says, "Okay, everybody, it was a tough race. I want to talk about the two mistakes I know I made and I need to get better. I don't know if anyone else saw them, but I made this mistake here and this mistake here. I know how to solve the first one. I need your help on how to solve the second one. It's a blind spot for me. I don't know how to do it. That's my report. Who's up?" Set the standard right there, didn't prep anyone for it, but held the standard that we all make mistakes. And if we're going to the messy edge, that's gonna happen. That's how the unlocks take place.

• 30:33Michael Gervais?

  And you and I don't have to do it physically or in a race car. We can do it emotionally every day. It can happen in conversations with friends or loved ones about what's really happening, about what really is going on inside. And when you do that, that messy razor's edge is so alive and so scary, you could fall into a thousand pieces or unlock the relationship that you wanted to have with that person.

• 30:59Rich Roll?

  Beautifully put. I think most people's, and I would include myself in this default setting, is to double down on the things that we're good at and blind ourselves to our weak spots. And the elite athlete has that reflex to move towards the weaknesses because they understand that their performance is going to be dictated by developing those weaknesses into strengths. But in our day to day lives, we're not necessarily compelled or challenged in a way that kind of pushes us towards our weaknesses. And it's very easy to just keep doing the thing that we know we're good at and kind of hold those weaknesses over here and pretend they don't exist or that they're not really undermining who we want to be.

• 31:45Michael Gervais?

  There's lots of ways to go after what you're talking about. As a tactic, the way I like to work with folks, remember, my training is in sports psychology, the psychology of excellence. And if you think about all the skills that go into you being your very best, maybe even great at something. Say we have a list of nine. There's usually more, but this is just for the sake of conversation. There's three you're really good at, three that are pretty good, and then three that relatively you struggle with. Now, those bottom three might be better than 99% of the world, but those are a relative stack. Just as a thought experiment, if you were working with an athlete on whether it's physical, technical, or mental stack that we're talking about of skills,

• 32:29Michael Gervais?

  where would you start? Would you help them be better? Like Shaquille O'Neal, let's help you be a better force underneath the basket. Or obviously, when he played, he was terrible at free throw shooting, right? He really struggled there. Would you help him on his free throw? Or would you help him on something in the middle?

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  In order to answer that question, you need a more comprehensive kind of roadmap or blueprint of how that person operates, because if there's some kind of mental tweak, perhaps that needs to be addressed fundamentally first before you even get to the free throw thing.

• 33:02Michael Gervais?

  I like that. I like that. So let's assume that this person is a great learner. They want to get after it. They're okay being in the messy edge. You know, let's just assume that they're a good learner. This is just philosophically, you know, for tactics. Would you start with reinforcing what they're great at, what they're okay with, or what they struggle with?

• 33:19Rich Roll?

  With what they struggle with.

• 33:21Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, that's what I thought you were going based on the last part of your conversation. And there's no right or wrong here. Where I go is right in the middle of the stack, and I go towards the top of the middle. So I'll go to number four. And the reason I go to number four is because now there's this like interesting slipstream that I've found for folks, is that they start working on something and they become better at it, because they're close to being good at it. They become better at that, and they're like, "Oh, oh, like I can get better at some other stuff, too." And so then you start moving down the stack. That's how I go about it.

• 33:54Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. But I would have thought, and part of the reason why I said the weak thing, let's use free throws as the example, is because they're so bad at that, there's much more room for improvement.

• 34:08Michael Gervais?

  Room for improvement, yeah.

• 34:08Rich Roll?

  And the velocity of that improvement seems like an easier lift that would create that encouragement and that level of engagement with their own ability to change and evolve.

• 34:18Michael Gervais?

  I think that that is super reasonable, and I've seen that show up plenty of times. What happens privately is they're like, "Oh, man, I'm not very good at free throws."

• 34:27Rich Roll?

  Thing they hate, so they're dreading it.

• 34:29Michael Gervais?

  Now we've got a spotlight on the thing that they don't like. Fine, that's totally fine to do. But then there's this hyper fixation on things I'm not good at.

• 34:39Michael Gervais?

  And that's not the psychology that got them there. The psychology that got them there was like, I'm a force underneath the basket. Give me the rock. And if we start to shift that to focus on the things they're not good at solely or majoritively, then the psychology starts to change like, man, maybe I'm never going to be able to unlock this. Like, I'm not good at this.

• 34:59Rich Roll?

  That's interesting.

• 35:00Michael Gervais?

  So it's an interesting just potential pivot between where you go.

• 35:03Rich Roll?

  Now that makes a lot of sense.

• 35:04Michael Gervais?

  Isn't that kind of fun as a thought stem to think through?

• 35:07Rich Roll?

  But fundamentally, and you referenced this a minute ago, is this preset or our kind of fundamental disposition around how we interface with our own sense of purpose, our own value set and what motivates us. Are we extrinsically motivated or are we internally driven? And this provides the foundation for this book, your first book. Congratulations.

• 35:32Michael Gervais?

  Thank you.

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  Which is all about like liberating yourself from the opinions of others and turning that spotlight inward to try to understand what your purpose is, what your value set is, and creating a structure where you're driven internally in accordance with those to kind of mute out the extraneous noise of the outside world as a roadmap towards mastery. And I guess the first question that I would ask you is like, of all the things, like mastery is your world. Your podcast is called Finding Mastery. Like, this is what you obsess about and think about and practice and teach.

• 36:13Rich Roll?

  Why is it this kind of subject terrain that's providing the on-ramp to your very first book? Like, you could have picked a lot of ways to communicate your ideas around mastery, but you're focused on this very singular concept as kind of an introduction to your world and how you think about high performance.

• 36:33Michael Gervais?

  I love the question because I think a lot of people are quietly asking themselves, Gervais, why'd you write a book on this? And I appreciate that you're actually asking it. Many people have not asked this question.

• 36:45Rich Roll?

  It seems like the obvious first question.

• 36:47Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, good. So I'll tell you, the reason being, because I think it is the greatest constrictor of one's potential. I think this obsessive, private worry about what somebody else is thinking about me is the great.

• 37:04Michael Gervais?

  Unnamed, unexamined constrictor of potential. And it is like David Foster Wallace shared in his poem. There's three fish. There's an old fish swimming one way and two young fish swimming the other way. And the old fish, as he passes by, says, "Morning, boys. How's the water?" And the two young fish swim on. And then one brave of the young fish says to the other, "The hell is water?" And I think that's what is happening. It's like this navigation of, am I being accepted by others? Am I being rejected by others? Is the water that we are swimming in? It is so foundational to safety and survival that we've almost forgot to label it.

• 37:45Michael Gervais?

  We've got the fight, flight, freeze mechanism to ready us without even having to think. From a warring tribe, from a wildebeest, from a saber-toothed tiger, from whatever is perceived to be dangerous, we don't even have to think and our body readies. And that's because our brain is optimized for survival. Belonging is safety. Belonging is survival. So there's this other general thing that's taking place in our brain, the 3.2 pounds of tissue, that is, it's scanning the world for things that are dangerous and trying to figure out how to be okay. And one of the great dangers, the near-death sentence, is if you and I are in a tribe, let's go back 200,000 years ago, and Rich and Mike are doing their thing.

• 38:28Michael Gervais?

  And let's say that, I don't know, you sharpen the arrows and I got the bows just right. And each time we go hunting, we come back and arrows are broken and we miss our target and the tribe is hungry. And let's say another time we're out gathering and I'm coming back with rotten whatever and like you're off, you know, doing something else in your ADD moment and you don't come back with the right berries either. Over time, underperformance has led to rejection. And once we're kicked out of the tribe, that rejection is a near-death sentence because you and I can't forge and fend and fight and hunt and gather, just the two of us, or maybe our spouses, maybe like three kids and then maybe a cousin and an uncle. It's too much. So, safety.

• 39:15Michael Gervais?

  Is part of belonging. And so what ends up happening, we've got this general mechanism in our brain to take the temperature of other people, to make sure that we're okay in their eyes. Well, that getting kicked out of the tribe now is no longer a death sentence or near death sentence. It's just, doesn't feel good. So, but we still have the mechanism to tune, to see if we're okay in the eyes of other people, because we are petrified to be rejected. And that's what's happening. And I was 16 years old. I saved up enough money to buy my first car. It was a Mazda B2000 pickup truck. I could throw my surfboard in the back and I felt great about it. It was like a $2,000 truck. And there was a car driving and they were on my left-hand side.

• 40:00Michael Gervais?

  They were going in the same direction. They were gonna pass me. And I remember sitting up, grabbing the steering wheel like a cool kid would, and thinking to myself, they're gonna see how cool I am in my new car. Like, I'm gonna show up bright in this moment. So as they're passing me, I looked to the left and they didn't care. They didn't even look. They had no clue that I existed. I did not matter at all to them. And I had this lightning bolt moment. What am I doing with my life? I'm a 16-year-old kid and I'm having this existential moment like, this is embarrassing. I just did all of this performance to be looked at by somebody favorably that I didn't even know.

• 40:42Michael Gervais?

  What is that? And I was so embarrassed by it. I didn't talk about it. I just kept it private. And I knew that I was doing it throughout my life. And I was so embarrassed that I was playing a secondary game. And socially, I was fine. I could fit in at a lot of places. And it helps when dad's an alcoholic and mom's codependent and you gotta figure out how to navigate.

• 41:04Rich Roll?

  There's an interesting brew that creates a psychologist.

• 41:09Michael Gervais?

  Right, yeah. And so you figure out how to tune to others, but I was doing it a lot. And then come to sit with Best in the World and they talk about like not letting others down, not wanting to blow it, not wanting to da, da, da, da. And there's this all this narrative about how important opinions of others is to their life and well being and sense of self. So I wrote an article and the article was on HBR 12 months later and it was on this, like this number one constrictor, this obsessiveness about how you're perceived by others. And they called me 12 months after and they said, uh, you're the number one downloaded article.

• 41:49Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 41:49Michael Gervais?

  So you hit a nerve.

• 41:50Rich Roll?

  I read it. It's great.

• 41:51Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 41:52Rich Roll?

  I didn't look at the date on it. I was just assuming that came out after the book as part of like getting the book out.

• 41:57Michael Gervais?

  No, that happened like-

• 41:58Rich Roll?

  That was well before.

• 41:59Michael Gervais?

  Like three years ago.

• 42:00Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 42:01Michael Gervais?

  So they called and they said, let's write a book. And I was like, man, I'm wrestling alligators right now. Like, life is hard. I do not have that bandwidth to do it. And they said, no problem. Let's come back around. And I was like, thank you. They called 12 months later and they said, it was number one downloaded again? Like, there's a real nerve here. So I felt like I wasn't alone. I wasn't alone with this obsessive worry that kept me safe but small, that kept me playing the second game that didn't have a sense of freedom in it. And I had shed a lot of it because I'd worked at it a long time. I still have some of it. I'm not free from it completely. Like, I'm not the enlightened one here. That's you.

• 42:42Rich Roll?

  Definitely not.

• 42:43Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 42:43Rich Roll?

  So I- Don't play that game with me. I know what you're doing.

• 42:46Michael Gervais?

  I'm still working at it and come to find out I'm not alone. Just naming it is healthy for people.

• 42:52Rich Roll?

  Well, I think what's brilliant about that, it's not surprising that that, that hit a nerve, and by HBR you mean the Harvard Business Review, because there's two things going on. Like, it does provide this lens into the world of mastery, which is your specialty, but it's also something that almost all of us can relate to. It's a universal experience. So whether you're interested in mastery or not, or perhaps you're just curious about the human condition and the human psyche in general, like, this is something- That we can all find commonality around.

• 43:26Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Rich Roll?

  Because I think it just it imperils and kind of affects us in various ways throughout our life. Like that story that you told, I have many versions of that. And, you know, worrying about other people's opinions. I've gone through acute stages of my life where that was very paralyzing. Yes, it's a vestige of this evolutionary trait that kept us alive. But it's also very hard to shake. And today, you know, I shouldn't be concerned about these things at all. But it's still, you know, kind of commandeers me in certain ways that I wish it didn't. And I think that now, because of social media and the way that we kind of interface with each other in our digital lives, it's more acute than ever. And it's also a very, you know, kind of tricky town square that we all inhabit,

• 44:11Rich Roll?

  where being ostracized from the village kind of does feel real, like you say the wrong thing. And then suddenly there's a, you know, cascading set of consequences that can actually spill out into the real world and affect you in dramatic and negative ways. And I think it has everybody's sphincters tightened a little bit, you know, and like thinking long and hard about what they're going to say or not say. And there's that sense of constriction, like, how do I, how do I do this? How do I interface with this? And I think it's put us in contact with that ingrained impulse that we have around how we, you know, participate as, as a community. And what is the real threat versus the perceived threat?

• 44:53Michael Gervais?

  Amen. That sense of community, we are more like a coral reef than a nail banged into a board as an individual sense of self. Like, we are more like a coral reef. We need each other in so many different dimensional ways. And it's not just like, oh, I don't want to be caught saying something that I'm going to piss off other people, so I'm going to monitor myself. There's a function of that, certainly.

• 45:19Rich Roll?

  Or it's also, what can I say that's going to get the court of opinion clapping in my direction?

• 45:24Michael Gervais?

  That's, okay, yes, on both of those. And then I do think that the fear of rejection is more important than, than the desire to be accepted. So I think the fear of rejection is the stronger motivator. However. I think it shows up in our relationships with our parents, even as adults. I think it shows up.

• 45:42Rich Roll?

  A hundred percent.

• 45:43Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 45:43Rich Roll?

  You know, to this day.

• 45:44Michael Gervais?

  This is why we get pissed off because I'm like.

• 45:47Rich Roll?

  How many decisions have you made to impress either your mother or your father over the course of your life that were not necessarily in alignment with your own sense of purpose?

• 45:57Michael Gervais?

  It's gross. Why am I doing that? I can answer it as a psychologist, as a self-examined psychologist. The other piece is like, I think we do with our spouses. We do with our friends. So these are intimate relationships. It's not just performing for them.

• 46:12Michael Gervais?

  It's thinking about, is she going to be okay if I say this? Now, what I need to do is go back to my first principles. And am I going to be about my first principles or conform or contort them for the approval of the person that has demonstrated like, I'm in it with you. Like, let's do the long-term thing here. Let's really know each other and go deep. Let's build a life together. And still, am I conforming in some kind of way to not piss off or upset the apple cart or, you know, like, it shows up in super slippery ways.

• 46:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, in those really subtle ways that perhaps are the most nefarious.

• 46:51Michael Gervais?

  That's it.

• 46:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:52Michael Gervais?

  So there's freedom. There is a better way. And part of that is like, know whose opinions really matter to you. For me, I need a round table of eight. You could have 12, you could have four, you know, but like, what is your round table? What is the criteria for them to be at your round table? And for me, it's twofold. Happy to share them, but I'd love to hear yours. Like, what would be the criteria of the people to be at your round table that you, you say, listen, your opinion matters to me deeply?

• 47:21Rich Roll?

  Well, I have different people for different areas of my life. So I have a roundtable around my sobriety. I have a different roundtable around things like parenting, professional decisions that I have to make, relationship stuff. There's different people that I call on for different reasons. And I would say it's more than eight, but I don't know that I've defined it and written it down and said, this is my roundtable.

• 47:47Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 47:48Rich Roll?

  But, you know, I go to AA and I have different roundtables of people who are very important to me that help keep me on track and that are a sounding board for many of my decisions. I have a formal men's group every week that I sit down with a group of eight guys. And that's where we share non-sobriety oriented stuff. In my case around, you know, parenting dilemmas that I butt up against or relationship stuff. I've been with my wife 23 years. Like, what does this look like now? How do I keep this alive? And how do we stay, you know, energized in our marriage and, you know, continue to cultivate that level of intimacy? Or I have a big professional decision I need to make.

• 48:30Rich Roll?

  Like, I only share those decisions with a very select group of people that I'm very intentional about, you know, that.

• 48:39Michael Gervais?

  I love this.

• 48:39Rich Roll?

  Like, I don't, you don't just spew it out and let everybody's opinions roll in.

• 48:43Michael Gervais?

  That's right.

• 48:44Rich Roll?

  That creates paralysis and confusion and you're over indexing on certain people. Cause everybody's got an opinion about everything, right? So now more than ever, like you go online, God forbid you share like, should I do this online? Like, you're gonna get a zillion different opinions from who knows who these people are. And on top of that, are we really meant to know everybody's opinion on everything all the time? Every second of every single day?

• 49:09Michael Gervais?

  No, of course not.

• 49:09Rich Roll?

  It doesn't make me feel good, like.

• 49:11Michael Gervais?

  It could be fun to crowdsource. There can be some wisdom in crowdsourcing.

• 49:14Rich Roll?

  Sure. Like, create a poll or something like that. But I think it's much more effective to identify the people who you really trust, who you know have your best interest at heart and are going to really consider.

• 49:29Rich Roll?

  The question at hand and aren't afraid to give you the hard answer.

• 49:33Michael Gervais?

  Okay, so these are the criteria, whatever table it might be, we're having a similar criteria. The ones when I thought deeply about it is there's two vectors. One is they have built time under tension with me and I know that they care. I know that they have an understanding of my micro and massive traumas in my life. They have context to the person who I want to become and be more often. It's not an opinion that's out of context and they've demonstrated with time under tension that they really care about my wellbeing. And then on this other side, it's they've been in the amphitheater where there's real stress and pressure and they know the defaults that happen in those conditions.

• 50:17Michael Gervais?

  So it's the context of both of those that I go, I'm at home. I can be so vulnerable that you know how to take care of me in my most vulnerable state because you know, you know, the person I want to be and you know, the traumas I've had, so it's in context. And like my wife is my best friend. We've been married 28 years and people used to ask me early in my career arc, like, what are the commonalities or what are the traits of the greats? Like, what are the ones that hang together? It was something that I thought deeply about and I did a lot of investigation around it and I'm less interested in answering that and I'm more interested in pointing to who are your trusted partners? Like, forget about what they do, who has your back?

• 50:59Michael Gervais?

  Unconditionally, positive regard, sees you, knows you and is going to ride with you to help you be your very best, even when it's hard. And there's a reason 50% of marriages or more fall apart, right? Because the depth is not taken care of and this is the depth that I'm talking about watering and knowing. So those are the criteria for me. They care and they understand what it feels like to be in high pressured.

• 51:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and that understanding demands a level of experience in whatever it is that you're running by them.

• 51:32Michael Gervais?

  And vulnerability, you have to bring you into the conversation. If you and I just beer and pizza.

• 51:39Rich Roll?

  Should I do this or this?

• 51:40Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 51:40Rich Roll?

  And I don't have context.

• 51:41Michael Gervais?

  Right.

• 51:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Michael Gervais?

  I've never shared like my ache with you, then it's out of context. You're just standing at the surface with the beer, pizza, and chicken wings, whatever kind of conversation. That's just, I know that you don't do beer, pizza, chicken wings. I understand, but just for fun, the surface level conversations.

• 51:57Rich Roll?

  Sure. So if somebody's listening to this, and this is a new idea for them, how does one go about corralling their own roundtable?

• 52:05Michael Gervais?

  Okay, like you could just borrow maybe those two vectors, like who's demonstrated that they really care, or the beginnings of that. Maybe you want to give them a seat and that they have a sense of what it's like to be in heavy environments, because that's where we fall apart. Okay, so just some, some sort of semblance of those two. And then what I would say is start with that exercise, then move to one of the three best practices to know yourself better. Mindfulness, journaling, or conversations with people of wisdom. Start with one of those so that you can work increasing awareness of how you work from the inside out. One of those three are great practices.

• 52:46Michael Gervais?

  And then I would examine the performance-based identity that you might be inhabiting. So we live in this performance-obsessed world, certainly in the West. It makes perfect sense that for generations, we have a performance-based identity, which is examined by I am what I do and how well I do what I do, as opposed to I am me. I am who I am rather than what I do. So examine the performance-based identity. We take a deep dive in the book on this, but the crosswalk is from performance-based identity to purpose-based identity. What is your purpose? Get crystal clear with what your purpose in life is. I would triple down on that.

• 53:39Rich Roll?

  So a couple of things. So switching to purpose is essentially what you're saying is the path going from somebody who is extrinsically motivated to internally driven.

• 53:52Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 53:53Rich Roll?

  That's how you bridge that gap. But when you use the purpose with a capital P, that flummoxes a lot of people. That's paralyzing in its own right.

• 54:02Michael Gervais?

  Totally.

• 54:02Rich Roll?

  I don't know what my purpose is.

• 54:03Michael Gervais?

  Totally, yeah.

• 54:04Rich Roll?

  You're telling me, "Oh, I can't do anything until I know what my purpose is?" What is my purpose? And you could spend years, you know, chewing the cut on that and making no progress. So how do you get somebody off the dime on trying to figure out what that is in their own life?

• 54:19Michael Gervais?

  Thin slicing. I agree with you. The magnificent, you know, exploration of my grand purpose in life can feel very overwhelming. Okay, so bring it way down, you know, and thin slicing is like, what is my purpose today? And just practice that a week, two weeks, a month, whatever. But practice thin slicing. What is my purpose today? What is the thing that matters to me that has meaning and it's a little bit bigger than me? And I'm going to need all day to get this thing kind of delivered or done. So those are the three criteria for purpose. It has personal meaning, it's bigger than you, and it's future oriented. So if you thought about in the most time bound way, the thinnest slice you could, what is my purpose today?

• 55:04Michael Gervais?

  Practice that until you're kind of ready, like, what is my purpose for this week? This is not a goal. There's not goals. It's not checklist. Purpose has like a soul to it. What is my purpose for this week? And then after you've practiced week purpose for a while, move up to month, move up to quarter, move up to year. And then, you know, as you're doing that, it will happen. Maybe just trust my words for a little bit, like, it will happen if you practice just about anything, but if you practice this, you'll become more familiar with it. You'll feel the fabric of that question and your grand life purpose will become just a bit more clear.

• 55:39Rich Roll?

  One of the challenges in answering that question, I think, tracks back to an amazing insight that you share in the book that really struck me, which is that our relationship with this idea of purpose is driven in the West by this rugged individualism kind of notion, as opposed to its true context, which is that purpose is revealed in our relationship with others. And when we think about the context of our own community and the kind of dynamics in which we operate, that is a more fertile soil to kind of imagine purpose and develop it, as opposed to, "I'm here, standing alone, it's me and manifest

• 56:24Rich Roll?

  destiny, you know, and I'm gonna stake my claim and this is my purpose, and it's just up to me." Because that's, you know, back to the evolutionary thing. Like, you say in the book, "We are not individuals who have learned to be social, we are social animals who have learned to identify as separate selves." And, you know, that is like at the crux of not just the purpose conundrum, but this whole notion that drives fear of other people's opinions.

• 56:54Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, we're masquerading like we are individuals in a, in a social world. Like, we've kind of got the ordering sideways here. And so, if you think about a pebble in a pond, and you think about the ripple that takes place from that, at the center is your relationship with yourself. This is how I see it, at least, in my simple way. Some people might say your relationship with God starts at the center. I put your relationship with yourself there. And if it's informed by God, great, but it's the relationship with yourself. Then the next ring, you could decide what you put in the next rings, but it is about relationships with. And I go with experience, with other people, with Mother Nature, with machines. And so, there's relationships that are at the foundation of this whole

• 57:36Michael Gervais?

  thing of life. And I don't have this exactly dialed in yet, but I'm thinking that one of the ways I want to express mastery of self... Is a love affair with the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown, present moment? If you could have a love affair with the unfolding present moment, like, there's a sense of real, you used a word from earlier, agency and efficacy and a sense of power and a sense of not needing controls, but giving in to the unfolding present moment and having a love affair with that unknown, that to me, I think, is mastery of self. But that is a relationship with experience. And so, it starts with, I think, your relationship with yourself.

• 58:19Rich Roll?

  Hmm. To get there, you need a couple of other things that you talk about in the book, which is, you know, a learner's kind of approach to the world. You can call it a growth mindset and curiosity.

• 58:31Michael Gervais?

  Hmm. Yeah, so, we all have seeds. We're more like a gardener than we are just about anything else. And what are we tilling? What are we tending to? And if we're tending to learning, we're tending to exploring, we're tending to figuring things out, then those plants grow, those seeds, they grow. So I think that most of us, and I'll talk about myself here for a minute. For much of my life, I was critical, hard on myself. I was judgmental. I was pessimistic. I was tilling those seeds and they were growing. And so, before I knew it, I was, first year in college, and I was waking up to brush my teeth and my hands were shaking. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know that I was living with anxiety.

• 59:16Michael Gervais?

  I had no idea what that was. I was wondering, is this a neurological thing? Like, what's going on? And I was racing in my day because I was not enough. And if we take on the gardener analogy and we just take a moment, like, what are you tilling? And what are you hydrating? And what are you growing? What seeds are you cultivating inside of yourself? I think there's a rich metaphor to be played forward and... I want to be more curious than a learner because there's so much good stuff that I don't understand. And I'm fascinated by making connections with people, with self, with ideas. So I've just got to show up and be a learner.

• 59:54Rich Roll?

  It's a more joyous liberated way to live.

• 59:58Michael Gervais?

  It's not a new idea though, right?

• 59:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know, but it's so hard to access. Like when I look at, let's just drill down on this idea of the performance-based identity. This gets expressed in three negative ways. A contingent self-worth, meaning like your self-worth is basically dependent upon what other people say it is. A looming fear of failure. Doom is just around the corner. You're one click away from disaster.

• 1:00:23Michael Gervais?

  You better step it up now. You better be great.

• 1:00:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And perfectionism. And I read this and it's like, you know, ding ding ding. You know what I mean? Like, I got some work to do, buddy. And like, I'm in a much better place with this. I'm kind of half justing because I have contended with this and overcome a lot of it, but it comes up all the time. And, you know, you and I are in a business that's oriented around certain kind of metrics that get socially shared and you can't help but fall into comparison, even with the self-awareness that it's not in your best interest to do it, or that it doesn't really mean anything. And here you are, writing a whole book about why you need to stop worrying about what other people think, but there's nothing that's

• 1:01:09Rich Roll?

  going to be more provocative or bring that up in a more acute way than to write a book and then share it with the world. Because of course you want the book to be enjoyed by a lot of people and you want it to be received well and be meaningful. And the irony of all of that, like, how have you, you know, kind of navigated that?

• 1:01:29Michael Gervais?

  Well, the subtitle is not "Stop Caring About What People Think." It is not that. The subtitle is "Stop Worrying." So the worry piece is under my control and so I can do something about it. And so I do care about people that are on the roundtable and I do care about some others, you know, because... They are influential and they can open doors and close doors. So I do care. And so it's not like I'm callous in any way, or removed, or aloof, or enlightened. I'm not a narcissist. This book is not for enlightened sociopaths or narcissists. Okay. They've got a different model that they're working on. This is for the rest of us. Okay. So if you think about the mechanism of FOPO, fear of people's opinions,

• 1:02:10Michael Gervais?

  is that there's an anticipation, like, driving up here. I could have spent a lot of time thinking about this conversation and what you're going to think about me and I need to be just right and I want to be perfect. And man, I'm not okay if he doesn't think I'm okay. And what is this huge audience going to think about? Or I can spend my time in another way. But the anticipation of what another's going to think is the bulk of FOPO.

• 1:02:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was really well stated in the book. It's not the negative opinion shared per se. It's the anticipation that that might occur. That creates all of the stress and anxiety and, you know, toxic brew of neurochemicals that, you know, fuck us up.

• 1:02:52Michael Gervais?

  That's exactly right. And then, so the second phase is checking. So that when I'm actually now in front of you, I am reading micro-expressions because I want to be connected to you. But I'm not doing it to see if I'm okay. I'm doing it to be okay with you. Right? There's a different tone to that. And so it's like checking in. Did I say the right thing? Did I not say the right thing? What's he thinking? Oh, gosh, he didn't like that. Oh, he did like that. Okay, now I'm okay.

• 1:03:16Rich Roll?

  He reads micro-expressions really well. Like, I better really be on my game because he's going to see through my bullshit immediately.

• 1:03:22Michael Gervais?

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 1:03:23Rich Roll?

  And he knows the truth and like.

• 1:03:26Michael Gervais?

  Sometimes that's, you know, it feels.

• 1:03:28Rich Roll?

  X-ray vision over there.

• 1:03:30Michael Gervais?

  But it's just, we all are actually pretty good at it, you know, if we care. But I've spent a lot of time sitting in rooms with people that are highly skilled at presenting themselves in a strong way, if you will.

• 1:03:40Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And being able to see through it.

• 1:03:43Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:03:43Rich Roll?

  And like, I got this guy's number.

• 1:03:45Michael Gervais?

  They want me to. When you close a door and you're going to go do work with a psychologist or sports psychologist, you want to grow. But you also don't know if it's safe yet. So the classic rookie mistake is like, you create a safe environment and then it's kind of bullshit talk for 45 minutes. And the last five minutes of a session, somebody walks out and they're like, hey, uh. Maybe we should be talking about like that time I was fill in the blank and big trauma. It's like, oh, man, we wasted a lot of time to get to that. But anyways, non sequitur here. So there's the anticipation phase is the checking in. Am I okay? Then there's the responding phase. And I think there's five parts of the responding. So

• 1:04:26Michael Gervais?

  let's say that I get a slight hint from you that I'm not okay. And this matters to me. I've got to be okay in your eyes. Like that I'll conform, I'll contort, which is like, I'll abandon my first principles. I'll laugh at a joke that is not fucking funny to me. It's actually offensive. But I want to be safe with you. There's a problem in this. I'll start to critique you. So I'll become offensive. So you don't critique me, I'll critique you. Or I'll critique somebody else, and you and I can partner in that critique. So now we're closer. I might just flat out disconnect from you because it's just too much. I'm so afraid of what you're going to think of me, and I so value you that

• 1:05:09Michael Gervais?

  I'm going to pull away. And I'm just not going to be around much. So there's a predictable handful of things that happen when you're operating from FOPO, when you're operating from a fear of another person's opinion.

• 1:05:20Rich Roll?

  Hmm. The antidote is found how?

• 1:05:24Michael Gervais?

  Well, so I think the first is to make a fundamental commitment, just like athletes do, to get better. And to work from the inside out. That is the number one antidote. Mindfulness would be certainly the second. Like, learn how you're working. Psychology is the study of self. That's where it starts. Study yourself. Know how thought one, two, and three creates feeling or emotion A, B, and C. Like, know yourself. Know your tripwires. Know where you speak to yourself in a way that builds you and backs you, where you can be free to be you. Understand the first principles that matter to you above all else,

• 1:06:08Michael Gervais?

  and know the thoughts and behaviors that line up for those first principles. And if you can do that in service of purpose, you got kind of the whole buffalo lined up. It's a fundamental commitment to work from the inside out is the anecdote.

• 1:06:22Rich Roll?

  This is such an insidious thing, like I'm just reflecting on my own life and the decades that I was sort of unknowingly betraying myself to conform or to do the thing that would get the approval of my dad or my peers without having any understanding of what my values were or what I even felt was authentically me. Because when you live in that space for a protracted period of time, you're so divorced with that inner voice that the notion of even connecting to it or listening to it seems entirely foreign until you reach some crisis

• 1:07:02Rich Roll?

  point that forces you to reckon with it for the very first time. And that's a very disorienting experience. Perhaps that's the moment when people find themselves in the office of someone like yourself for the very first time, trying to make sense of what's happening. So-

• 1:07:18Michael Gervais?

  Or they're calling their friends, saying, "I'm fucked up."

• 1:07:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:20Michael Gervais?

  You know, or they feel really alone.

• 1:07:22Rich Roll?

  Or they're just privately, you know, contending with it to the point of, you know, severe mental issues.

• 1:07:28Michael Gervais?

  That's right.

• 1:07:29Rich Roll?

  Because they're so afraid of raising their hand.

• 1:07:32Michael Gervais?

  That's right. Because we're conditioned to look a certain way rather than be a certain way. And we are obsessed with performance. Grades happen that way. Force ranked stacks in youth sport happen. We want to give everyone an award, but really, we're only kind of interested in the winners. And like, it's a tough world to navigate, period. And I don't think the world is safe. It is not designed for you to be your very best. The world is quite hostile. There are bad actors, there's good actors, there's selfish people across most communities. It's not designed for you to flourish. And so, if you're gonna play the game according to the world's standards, I think you get whipped around quickly. And that's why we talk about right now, there's a human energy crisis. People are more stressed, more anxiety,

• 1:08:15Michael Gervais?

  more depressed, more addicted, more suicidal than we've had in the last, call it 20 years. It's not that the external world has changed that much. It's that finally, people are saying, "Holy shit," like- I'm a mess because I've been playing this game, this obsessed culture with performance. I've drank that poison and that's never gonna fill me. And so I've been drinking this poison for a long time. Who am I and what the fuck am I doing here? And once you get down into that kind of organizing foundational type of thinking, there is a better way to go through life. And I don't think I know a better way other than to hit my head on the concrete. I need pain. That's what I needed. And I just want to be there, hopefully, for

• 1:09:00Michael Gervais?

  people that, you know, don't fall too far to hit their head in the concrete, that it's a game over. But like, that they can feel their pain and do it in a way that is healthy.

• 1:09:10Rich Roll?

  Did you see the David Beckham mini doc?

• 1:09:13Michael Gervais?

  I did. I did.

• 1:09:15Rich Roll?

  It's impossible to read your book without reflecting upon like that guy and how he navigated in the most extreme way, the opinions of other people to basically be able to perform at the highest level. And of all, like, I learned so much about this guy. I thought I understood his career, but I was shocked to discover so many things about this human being that I didn't know.

• 1:09:40Michael Gervais?

  Superendearing.

• 1:09:41Rich Roll?

  And his level of mastery when the entire world turned against him is extraordinary. To be able to tune out the absolute loudest voice one could possibly imagine and decide that, you know, his motivation was going to be internally driven and that it was up to him. And then to be able to like, show up and actually do it. I mean, you must have been like, out of your mind, watching that.

• 1:10:09Michael Gervais?

  I loved it. Yeah. What a moment for people to really see what it's like to be on the world stage and the risk that goes with that. They told that story in a just a beautifully endearing. Way. And so, yeah, I watched it with my son and my wife, the three of us watched that like in a great learning moment. You know, he's navigating the social world at age 15.

• 1:10:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:10:31Michael Gervais?

  Tough. Remember when you were 15?

• 1:10:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, at such a young age to be thrown onto the world stage.

• 1:10:36Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Rich Roll?

  And, you know, he's a human and there's obviously, he has missteps and it's the tapestry of life and all its colors, but for him to kind of persevere and prevail in the ways that that he did was, you know, really kind of a remarkable case study for all the things that you're talking about.

• 1:10:53Michael Gervais?

  Hundred percent agreed.

• 1:10:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The converse of that is a story that I read just the other day. I don't know if you saw this. It was a Wall Street Journal article about this guy, Dave Hollis. Did you see this?

• 1:11:05Michael Gervais?

  No.

• 1:11:06Rich Roll?

  Do you know who Rachel Hollis is?

• 1:11:07Michael Gervais?

  I know Rachel. This is her.

• 1:11:08Rich Roll?

  So this was her ex-husband who passed away. And it's really a cautionary tale about what was going on in the last stages of this guy's life. By all accounts, somebody who had a very unhealthy relationship to other people's opinions on social media that was driving some errant behavior and so addicted to the metrics and the approval that it's directly correlated with that guy's, the end of that guy's life. Like he was found dead in his bed with alcohol, fentanyl and cocaine in his system with his phone on his chest. And it's this unbelievable cautionary

• 1:11:46Rich Roll?

  tale about the influencer economy and kind of what social media and this outsized relationship with approval and, you know, other people's opinions, like extrinsic metrics to the nth degree can have on somebody's mental health that would like drive them to their death.

• 1:12:07Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:08Rich Roll?

  I bring that up.

• 1:12:09Michael Gervais?

  You're nailing it.

• 1:12:09Rich Roll?

  Simply to say that this is like a very real thing with very real world consequences. It's not a small thing.

• 1:12:16Michael Gervais?

  It's not. And freedom will not be understood by the limited time that we have here if we're playing the secondary game to be approved or not rejected by other people. And so, yeah, thank you for the sober reminder of like what the extreme looks like.

• 1:12:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:33Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:33Rich Roll?

  What's happening neurochemically in our brains when we're engaging with this fear of other people's opinions?

• 1:12:42Michael Gervais?

  When we're actually in the anticipation

• 1:12:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the anticipatory phase.

• 1:12:47Michael Gervais?

  It's basically, it looks, I would imagine, we haven't done a clinical trial or study on it, but it would look exactly like anxiety does. And so you'd have that right kind of cocktail where there's an urgency that's taking place to get something just right. And there's the right levels of cortical arousal with some cortisol and adrenaline. And so there's all of those mechanisms in place that amplify the experience. There's an attunement to get it right. And it can be actually addicting in some respects because there's an aliveness that comes with it. And you hear people talk about anxiety and depression. They don't want it, but there's an aliveness that comes with both of those that sometimes they don't want to shed.

• 1:13:29Michael Gervais?

  There's a tenderness that can happen with some depression, deep depression. Like I'm talking about mild or moderate. There's a tenderness that happens. There's a, an availability to feel in ways that you haven't felt before, but you just can't get out of it. You can't remove yourself from it. So that's the opposite. The anxious state that I'm talking about, the cocktail there, is that there's an urgency to get it just right. The energy level is really high and that can feel wonderfully stimulating. But the problem is that you can't down regulate it well. And it's this chronic elevated hum that is an exhausting experience. And then when you're actually in the presence of the other person's opinion that you're

• 1:14:10Michael Gervais?

  trying to get favor for, you get basically whipped around by that intensity and it's tiring.

• 1:14:17Rich Roll?

  What is the healthy version of being motivated by the opinions of others? Because it's not hard to imagine, take a quarterback on a, on a football team, like, I want to win for my team. I want to win for the fans or the rock is like, I do this for the fans. I work hard because I want you to, you know, it's like, there's something healthy about not being utterly self referential in why you're doing what you're doing, but doing it for a purpose that extends beyond your own kind of selfish regard.

• 1:14:48Michael Gervais?

  Oh, I think you're nailing purpose. People can be very clever in how they cloak purpose, you know? So is the purpose really about creating an experience for other people where they see a better version of themselves?

• 1:15:00Rich Roll?

  It just sounds better to say it that way.

• 1:15:01Michael Gervais?

  It sounds better, right? So I don't think there is a healthy version. When the primary operating system is the need to be accepted or the fear of rejection. I don't think that that is healthy in the becoming. To be connected to other people is the fabric of the coral reef of humanity. But when it's a self-centered, self-preserving mechanism primarily, do they like me? Are they rejecting me? I don't know a healthy version. But I can say you can facilitate, you can use that mechanism, that model, if you will, to potentially be the best in the world at something. The best in the world oftentimes have just enough anxiety, just enough OCD, just enough narcissism, just enough perfectionism,

• 1:15:46Michael Gervais?

  where they are compelled to go the distance and to go to the dark caves of high performance and to suffer in those places just a little bit longer than anyone else will. You can find yourself on the world stage with lots of money, lots of fame, lots of attention, whatever the value proposition that you're going for is. And you literally, you might be the best in the world. I'm not sure that you're gonna be healthy, but it'll take you to that place. There is a better way. You can have a purpose. You can be connected to other people. You can know that you are going to need to go to the edges on a regular basis and have a community of people that you're processing with and doing it with that is not self-centered only.

• 1:16:28Rich Roll?

  Right, but good luck convincing that person that there's a better way.

• 1:16:32Michael Gervais?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:32Rich Roll?

  That's gotta be the ultimate hard case, right? Because everything in their life has been a successful byproduct of these unhealthy tendencies. There's no way you're gonna disabuse that person, that they should let go of that and that there's a better way when, you know, the world is just raining gold upon them.

• 1:16:49Michael Gervais?

  We did this study. My mentor, she designed a study in the NBA where the hypothesis, if you will, is that people that had a sense of what they're gonna do post-career would fare better while they're in the league. Okay? And what she was gonna do is provide a quick little questionnaire, like, what do you wanna do next? And then if they said, I wanna be a pilot, well, then the team was going to figure out how to get off-season some pilot lessons or, you know, hook them up with a pilot that could show them the ropes or whatever. So there's a little bit of an internship slash harvesting of what that thing could be. All right. I can't remember the exact numbers, but let's just say it was an equal split. I don't think it was that people said, oh, I know what I want to do.

• 1:17:33Michael Gervais?

  It's pilot versus people said, why are we talking about this? I'm here.

• 1:17:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I can't indulge in that.

• 1:17:40Michael Gervais?

  Are you kidding me?

• 1:17:41Rich Roll?

  To even imagine what comes after is going to undercut my ability to be the absolute best in this very privileged situation that I find myself in right now.

• 1:17:51Michael Gervais?

  And so in that group, there was two main narratives. One narrative was I can't afford that time. Like I'm hanging on and I'm going to do everything I can to be here. It's a short window. I'm all in here. I'll deal with the consequences of not knowing what the hell I'm going to do later. Okay. And the other narrative was like, why would I bother? I made it. I'm here. This is the good life. Okay. So what she found and they found is that folks that nested what they're going to do next, perform better based on duration and had a better experience when they reflected post their time in the career. So it was on the folks that are like, why would I bother? It was shorter and they played with more anxiety.

• 1:18:36Michael Gervais?

  So that's a really interesting finding.

• 1:18:38Rich Roll?

  And what do you make of that?

• 1:18:40Michael Gervais?

  Know what's next. Have an idea of like where you're pointing to and the things that are interesting and compelling for your future. Go back to almost our first part of our conversation, using your imagination to see a future that is not time bound by the things that you're doing right now, but later. That's a rite of a passage for adulthood is to use your imagination in a powerful way. And I a thousand percent agree because when everything's kind of rolling and the train is going, it feels like it's going in the right direction. Even me, I'm like, wait, wait, wait, hold on. This is working now. And so it's hard when that energy is taking place to be thoughtful about later and maybe even a divergent path.

• 1:19:24Michael Gervais?

  So this is where that insight that I've shared with you before is that the reason people change is because of pain and how we grow is being uncomfortable. And so just kind of be ready and open, you know, when there's the pain that's there. And sometimes if people. Want a relationship with you, you can help induce pain. And I'm talking about emotional pain. The honesty of like feeling what it's like to be unsettled. But that's for the brave.

• 1:19:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's a whole different thing.

• 1:19:50Michael Gervais?

  That's a different deal. Yeah. Kind of raise the standard before you actually hit your head on the concrete.

• 1:19:55Rich Roll?

  Right. I want you to tell the story about the other mentor of yours, because it gets into a whole other new area that I want to explore with you.

• 1:20:05Michael Gervais?

  I should separate these two out because my deepest, longest, richest mentor, his name is Gary de Blasio, and he's known me since I was 15 years old. And he's been there for all the versions of me. That's not the other mentor I'm mentioning now, which I mentioned in the book. So this was a professional mentor. And he was one of the reasons I went to the PhD program I went to. And he helped me a lot. I learned a lot from him and I'll keep him nameless. I learned a lot from him. And he trusted me and he got me going in the field. And it was, I have such regard for how much he helped me. And so some time had gone by, I was in my career, kind of like maybe 10 years into it. I don't know the exact numbers.

• 1:20:49Michael Gervais?

  And, and I was working with a professional fighter in the UFC. And we did a great camp. It was a three month camp. It was the head coach. It was me and his strike coach. And we did some great work together with the athlete. And he had a championship fight. We practiced everything, pre rehearsal the night before, full rehearsal where we walked through everything. And, and not including all the three months of real work, you know, time under tension every day on mindset, technical and physical training.

• 1:21:19Rich Roll?

  Including whose hands he's going to shake? What is the walkout to the octagon?

• 1:21:24Michael Gervais?

  We did all of that.

• 1:21:25Rich Roll?

  Like all of that.

• 1:21:26Michael Gervais?

  Yeah. To the point where when he would walk up the five steps to get into the octagon, like we got all to that, to the details you were talking about, but we didn't practice where we were going to go. So I just followed the head coach. So the athlete goes into the octagon. All of that was dialed in, but I hadn't taken care of myself yet. Okay. So I follow the coach. This is now unfolding with, I don't know, 18,000 people in the arena and that, all that kind of buzz energy. And I'm like, oh shit. So I just follow the coach up. And I actually didn't know where our corner was, what we're supposed to do. So I just follow the head coach. And as we're walking up the, the same five steps that the athlete did, we have to cut in the line of the camera.

• 1:22:07Michael Gervais?

  And I follow him and he's like, yeah, right here, we're here. And so, okay, now I'm at home. And so the fight happens, great event. On my way home, my mentor calls. And I was like, oh, man, like, maybe he saw the fight or something. Like, maybe he was just checking in, I don't know. But I didn't know what was up, but he says, he goes, okay, nice job, dude. But what are you doing in front of the camera? Like, get yourself in the background. Like, that's not where we're supposed to be. And he didn't say all that. He just gave me a quick little shot that says, what are you doing in front of the camera? And then I internalized all of it and created this narrative. I've let him down, I've let the industry down, I'm breaking a rule, I'm not supposed to be here. Maybe I'm not even supposed to be at public events where there is cameras because psychology

• 1:22:52Michael Gervais?

  happens in the back room, not in the front room. And it was really unsettling. It was a problem for me. And I wanted to bring psychology forward, this beautiful science to help people be at home with themselves, wherever they are. And I wanted to bring it forward and I wanted to share like how the best in the world work. And then I just felt like I got gut punched. So I retreated to the, to the background. And I thought, I don't want to look bad in front of him. I don't want to let him down. And I certainly don't want to do something becoming for the whole field of professionals that I respect.

• 1:23:26Rich Roll?

  Does his perspective represent, yeah, the entire field's perspective on what you're doing?

• 1:23:31Michael Gervais?

  Well, he was so big in my life, like, of course it did. You know, like, he was big in my life. And so I just got small. I retreated to the background, still doing, loving my work and caring about the people I'm working with, but I just damped down that idea to celebrate the psychology, the process and the psychology. So much so that maybe it was another five years later. I was kind of afraid to reengage with him. So the relationship kind of fell out. And then five years later or so, I saw him at a conference and I was like, oh, man, he's, he's out there thinking I'm a kook and, you know, like, he was watching me present. And while I was presenting on stage, man, I had this near panic attack moment as soon

• 1:24:15Michael Gervais?

  as I made eye contact with him. I didn't put this part in the book. And I was on stage about to be run over with emotions. And I made a decision. Do I shape my presentation for his approval?

• 1:24:29Michael Gervais?

  Or do I stay true to my experience? And I said, no, I gotta stay true. And it feels like a hero moment, but thank God I'd done all this inner work, like for 20 plus years to be able to navigate that moment. Cause I'm certain that if I hadn't done the work, I would have shaped it for him. And after I got on stage and kind of that, that post glow happens that there's a, I don't want to say a line, but there's a gathering of folks that want to talk to you. You know exactly what I'm talking about. And he was kind of nested in the back of that room, disinterested in me.

• 1:25:03Michael Gervais?

  And so after, I don't know, 20 conversations or so, the room had quieted down and I walked over to him. And there was only like 50 people in the, it was a small audience. I walked over to him and I was like, oh, he never cared once. Just like that driver I was telling you about early in the conversation, like I made this story up. He didn't bring it up. He probably didn't even know. He was probably really disappointed and hurt that I had gone away for five years. And I had like abandoned all the trust that he had shared with me for one fucking comment. That I made up the magnitude of that to be something that shaped me in a way that I just didn't want to blow it again. And so, man, I feel sorry for him and I haven't squared the relationship. I still haven't.

• 1:25:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you talk about seeing him and how, you know, he's this larger than life figure in your consciousness. But in fact, he was sort of frail and, you know, kind of a bit of a sad sack in the way that you kind of describe him in that context. And so much so that you didn't even bring it up to him, like, cause you were planning on like, I'm going to go and talk to him about this so we can clear the air. And then realizing like, oh, there's not even any point to doing that.

• 1:26:15Michael Gervais?

  I still had like a little bit too much fire in me about it. You know, I still wasn't, I wasn't healed from it in any way. And probably not as I'm talking to you about it now, only because I, I feel sadness and remorse on how I treated myself and how I treated him. And at the same time, I haven't honored that experience with him.

• 1:26:36Rich Roll?

  But the story is potent and salient because it brings up the extent to which we empower other people in irrational ways that end up dictating big time life decisions in our own life. And, you know, these individuals who kind of lord over us in conscious and unconscious ways that, you know, bend the arc of our lives unnecessarily. And then to develop an awareness that, yes, you know, you have not been at the helm of your own life and you've, you've given this person so much power and for what, you know?

• 1:27:09Michael Gervais?

  Exactly.

• 1:27:09Rich Roll?

  Is to, you know, to help us realize, and you get into this in the book, like how we over index on other people's opinions. And we, we don't realize that, you know, everyone's walking around self obsessed. We think that they're judging us and thinking about this. They're thinking about their own lives. They're not thinking about us at all, just like the car that pulled up to you.

• 1:27:31Michael Gervais?

  That's right.

• 1:27:31Rich Roll?

  When you were 16. And all the social science supports this. And then on top of it, we have all these cognitive biases around thinking that people see the world that way that we see it, or that they're understanding us in the way that we think they're understanding us. And all of this stuff, it's this weird stew that just is like Vaseline on the lens of our, of how we perceive the world.

• 1:27:57Michael Gervais?

  Oh, the color of your language right now. Yes, yes, yes, all of that. And I just feel so excited that you're seeing it in this way because I'm like, yes, yes, yes, that it's how I lived it. I've seen a lot of people live it and there's good science to support it. And one of those bits that you're talking about is called the spotlight effect. Thomas Gilovich at a Cornell did a, ran a really interesting bit of research where, you know, it's dubbed the spotlight effect because we are walking around thinking that the world is looking at us. Is my hair okay? Is my shirt okay? Is, are my words okay? When in fact, you're doing the same for you, thinking about your hair and your shirt and your words. And so we end up being these weird kind of ships passing in the

• 1:28:38Michael Gervais?

  night, not really connecting because we think everyone's focused on us. It's quite tragic when you think about the aloneness that comes with that. And that's what happened. He said that thing, it was probably for him more than me. And I took it about all being me. And it's a dangerous proposition. Can we listen to the opinions of others too much?

• 1:28:56Rich Roll?

  Was that also like layered on top of this other kind of maybe sense that you were breaking ranks with your profession simply by pursuing psychology in a different way? Set aside the public spotlight aspect of it, but just to break free of this paradigm that psychology is about kind of treating disorders and instead looking forward towards how psychology could be leveraged for human performance. I mean, that in and of itself was, we sort of take it for granted now. There's a lot of movement and energy around this field that you're in, but at the time that you were beginning, this was still kind of a maverick move that I suspect the hardened, you know, kind of leather

• 1:29:39Rich Roll?

  elbow patched, you know, herringbone jacket wearing psychologists might not have smiled upon.

• 1:29:47Michael Gervais?

  To say the least. And I still think we're in some of that because there still is some of that keep it out of the narrative of what's happening. Like, let me be more clear. I'm kind of dancing around my words is that the laws of psychology and the ethical codes, there's a privilege and sanctuary that you're honoring for that person. So everything that if you and I are doing work stays in the sanctuary. That's called confidentiality and privilege is the fact that we're even having the conversation. So you hold privilege. And so by law, I cannot even say that I know you. If I were to see you in a grocery store, I have to pretend like you don't exist unless you acknowledge me. That's weird.

• 1:30:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is weird.

• 1:30:30Michael Gervais?

  That's weird. That's not healthy. Because now you're in your own world like, man, I love Gervais and like, I love the work we're doing. Why is he not making any eye contact? And like, I think he looked at me, but so it's like this weird thing. And so you gotta get ahead of it and say, hey, have I seen you in the grocery store?

• 1:30:48Rich Roll?

  Look, I understand the roots of that. There's a similar paradigm in Alcoholics Anonymous. Like, there's anonymity and privilege and confidentiality. Like, these are all rooted in ideas that make sense. They just get, they get stretched and kind of practiced in odd.

• 1:31:06Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:07Rich Roll?

  In odd ways.

• 1:31:09Michael Gervais?

  I have this conversation with people that if I work in a private way with them ahead of time, I'm like, listen, and I say that grocery store analogy. I go, I can't help myself. I'm coming up, I'm giving you a hug. Do you like hugs? I like hugs. Yeah, alright, cool. You know, so I do my best to work with, you know, the natural relationships and as long as-

• 1:31:30Rich Roll?

  The guy who's kicked back in his like poker face.

• 1:31:35Michael Gervais?

  No, that is not my style. Yeah, right. No, yeah. We're in it. It's intense and it's fun and like, and it happens in it. Like when I'm working with a sports team, it's happening on the bus in the hallways. I purposely don't have offices when I'm working with the sports team. So it's much more organic that way. So.

• 1:31:53Rich Roll?

  There's a great African proverb that you have in the book that opens one of the chapters that says, "The lion does not turn around when the small dog barks."

• 1:32:07Rich Roll?

  We're so obsessed with other people's opinions when in truth, we should be honoring our own sense of what we're doing. And it goes to the roundtable piece, like yes, there are certain people, you need input and we can all benefit from getting feedback, you know, from people who are worthy of that time and energy, but the extent to which we sort of ruminate on people's opinions that don't matter is insane.

• 1:32:36Michael Gervais?

  I think that that's a good way to say it. And oftentimes, if you think about the analogy between feeling like a puddle versus the ocean, and this is an ancient kind of Zen koan, is like, be the ocean, but oftentimes we feel like a puddle. And somebody, anybody in this case, could jump in with two feet into your puddle and displace you completely. And you're completely kind of turned upside down, if you will. But when you feel like the ocean and you are that type of magnitude and breadth and- I mean, a tanker dropped in the middle of the ocean is not really going to displace the power of the ocean. So be more like the ocean, be more like the lion than the

• 1:33:18Michael Gervais?

  barking dog or the puddle. And that takes practice. That's part of what the inner work is, is to be more like the ocean, the mountain, you know, the lion, as opposed to something small that's easily displaced.

• 1:33:32Rich Roll?

  Part of this practice, or a practice as a way into kind of connecting with these ideas that you suggest, is contemplating your own mortality.

• 1:33:42Michael Gervais?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, it's been around a long time.

• 1:33:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:45Michael Gervais?

  But yeah, it's a good way.

• 1:33:47Rich Roll?

  The Stoics. But I like the Tyler Durden example, of him jacking up the convenience store guy. Like, everybody who's seen Fight Club, he goes in and he robs the convenience store clerk and takes his wallet and asks the guy what he wants to do with his life. He says a veterinarian, but he abandoned it, or whatever. And what does he say? He's like, "I'm taking your license. I'm going to come back in six months. If you're not a veterinarian, I'm going to kill you." And Edward Norton's like, "I can't believe he did that." And Tyler Durden's like, "What do you mean? It's the best day of this guy's life."

• 1:34:21Michael Gervais?

  Right. Like, he now knows. He's got a real choice to make. And I love that. Like, I've had a practice for a long time that I also share in the book, that when I say goodbye to people, I want to practice the fragility of relationships. So now it's going to be weird. You're gonna, when we say goodbye, you're gonna be like, "Oh, I know what he's doing."

• 1:34:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Michael Gervais?

  But when I say goodbye to you, I'm gonna mean it, like I don't know if I'll see you again. And that gives me just a thin slice moment to honor our friendship and the time we spent. And it also prepares me, in a practice way, for the next engagement I'm going to have with somebody else, the next relationship, the next conversation, to be all in it with them, too. So it can sound morbid, because one of us is going to die at some point. The time that we have together, I want to make sure I'm in it, because I don't know how long we'll be able to do it together. So I just practice when I say goodbye, like, "I hope I see you again," you know? And like, if this is the last

• 1:35:15Rich Roll?

  How does that go when you do, you go out in the world and you do that with, you know, people that don't know you as well?

• 1:35:21Michael Gervais?

  That's quiet. They probably don't know. It's for me, not for them. And it's to prepare me better to be highly focused, highly attuned in my relationships with people, because that time is precious.

• 1:35:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Who in your mind, like, I guess, I don't know, in the sports world is an amazing example or practitioner of these ideas, somebody who is just on their game in full connection with their mastery, with a healthy relationship with their own value system and purpose, detached from the unhealthy side of being influenced by other people's opinions, like, who's out there, like, rocking it?

• 1:36:02Michael Gervais?

  I don't know who to point to.

• 1:36:03Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:36:04Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, I don't know who to point to.

• 1:36:05Rich Roll?

  Because you must watch sports like a film director watches movies, where you're just, you're seeing with x-ray vision, you're kind of looking at it differently.

• 1:36:13Michael Gervais?

  And I've been privileged to be in the inner workings of so many lives that have been the best in the world at what they do, and I think some have done a really nice job, and I'll tell you who I want to put on the pedestal here to answer your question, is I want to put Alex Anold there. And I want to put him there, but I don't know well enough the actual fabric of his relationships with his loved ones. I leave it a little open. I think he's the most significant athlete in our era. I think he's the one that I think about that has done and moved into territory that the rest of the world thought was incredibly stupid or dangerous or could not be done. And so I have great regard and respect for that, but I don't know the fabric of his relationships with others.

• 1:36:58Rich Roll?

  I think his relationships with others are pretty good. I mean, he's a very unique individual, not just as an athlete, but psychologically. I think it's a great choice, because if you really look at this guy, like, his internal barometer or compass is just super attuned. Like, he knows who he is, he knows what he's doing, he knows what he's trying to achieve, and he's not unaware of the world's perception of him, but it doesn't seem to at all impact him in any kind of negative way. Like, his connection with his North Star is like... Impenetrable.

• 1:37:36Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, it sounds like you've had a chance to spend some time with him.

• 1:37:39Rich Roll?

  A little bit. I mean, not a ton, but yeah, he's been on the show a bunch of times.

• 1:37:42Michael Gervais?

  Same here. And like, I think he's the most significant athlete of our time. And so I love that you have that texture, which I don't quite have for him. I hope so. That's right. That's really right.

• 1:37:54Rich Roll?

  That's a good choice. I like that. See, you were like, I don't know how to answer that. And then you just rocked it with an awesome choice.

• 1:38:00Michael Gervais?

  So who do you put up there?

• 1:38:02Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, throwing it right back at me. Wow, it's hard to top Alex. I mean, I would think I'm not like, watching a ton of sports. So you're probably catching me off guard. I mean, who else would be? I think what Kai Lenny is doing right now would be up there as well.

• 1:38:21Michael Gervais?

  I would.

• 1:38:21Rich Roll?

  You've had him on as well, right?

• 1:38:23Michael Gervais?

  Kai is a special human.

• 1:38:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:25Michael Gervais?

  I think he's the, he's the new leader, you know? He's not the like, look at my brass that I've shined up. He's like, I'm a learner, I'm a beginner, I'm an explorer. And he is rad, you know, from the soul out. He is awesome. I love that choice. I really.

• 1:38:41Rich Roll?

  I pulled that out of my ass.

• 1:38:42Michael Gervais?

  Nice job. Really nice job.

• 1:38:44Rich Roll?

  This idea of being in kind of emotional connection with our own mortality and kind of understanding the temporality of everything and the limited, you know, kind of lifespan that we have and how we all kind of squander time. I mean, this is our greatest resource and it's the one we least protect, right? We can understand that intellectually and we can read the Stoics and we can listen to Steve Jobs give his commencement speech and do all that kind of stuff. But for some reason, the human brain has difficulty translating that into kind of any real palpable emotional experience. Like, it seems to fade quickly.

• 1:39:24Michael Gervais?

  That's right.

• 1:39:24Rich Roll?

  Like, what is that? Why can't we just hold on to that and bring that into our conscious awareness? Yes, I can say to you when you leave, I hope I see you again and mean it.

• 1:39:34Michael Gervais?

  And mean it.

• 1:39:35Rich Roll?

  But I'll snap right back to, you know, whatever bullshit is like circulating in my mind.

• 1:39:40Michael Gervais?

  If you practiced it for a week. With every time you said goodbye to someone and you meant it, you'd be closer to honoring the fragility of the relationship and you would be more tuned. This is maybe one reason Alex is so tuned, because he knows that mistakes cost lives and he's lost a lot of friends. And so he's probably more tuned than most of us because he works in highly consequential environments. And so we don't practice it. I got snapped back by a musician and I was like, man, like, if I could just, like, that's amazing how you can sing. And he says, have you practiced? I was like, no, I think I'm tone deaf. He goes, yeah, but have you practiced?

• 1:40:24Michael Gervais?

  And I'm not tone deaf, but you know, like, I can't hit a note. And he goes, yeah, but how much time do you practice? I go, no, no, I don't practice. But like, he's like, this is like a kind of a stupid conversation. So I'm not saying that to you. I'm saying like, we don't practice it. And that real denial of fragility of life serves a purpose. Because we could be overrun by just how fragile life is. And all we do is kind of, you know, niche down in such a way that we don't do very much. We don't explore, we don't leave our kids' side. You know, we don't leave our spouse's side because like, we want to be with them and they're the ones. And so it can, it can become overwhelming. So I think that the denial mechanism there is serving a dual purpose.

• 1:41:07Rich Roll?

  Right, that idea of practice. We look at somebody who can sing well and we just believe that that's God's gift to them. And it's just, they came out of the womb that way.

• 1:41:17Michael Gervais?

  That's right.

• 1:41:17Rich Roll?

  And we don't appreciate that. It's its own act of mastery over many, many years. We don't have that same relationship with other people who are good at things. We understand it took a long time for them to get there. But with certain talents, yeah, we have blind spots around that. And, you know, similarly, you talked about the evolutionary kind of underpinnings of these fear impulses. But the other piece is the learnability of all of this. So when practiced, you know, there's this, well, I'm just wired this way. Like, I can't help it. Like, I'm just, you know, I can't help thinking about all these other people. What you're saying is, no. There is a method that if you practice it, you can kind of transcend this crippling thing.

• 1:42:00Michael Gervais?

  Oh, 100%. Like, we can get better a lot. You know, where do we put our gaze and our attention and our time? And what resources will we muster to get better at something? And honestly, like, I am totally biased in what I'm about to say. But I cannot imagine the path of becoming your very best in this limited time, unknown amount of time that we have, without having somebody in your life that is as unbiased as they possibly can to commit to seeing you, supporting you, and challenging you. And that's their job. That's their role. I'm describing what I would consider to be a great psychologist. And if that feels unavailable for whatever reasons, somebody in your life that commits to seeing you,

• 1:42:45Michael Gervais?

  supporting you, and challenging you to be your very best, paid or unpaid, is a radical accelerant. You can do it on your own. It's harder.

• 1:42:54Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:42:55Michael Gervais?

  Right? You can become a better version of yourself not having to rely on another person to help you. We are more like a coral reef than we are the hammered nail. But one of the dangers in life is thinking that I need someone to act or do something for me to be okay. So one of the great insights is to not have the other person love me, but actually for me to give love to others. And so the directionality is significant. And so we become powerful when we know how we want to be in life and relationship with others, and we're not dependent on the other person being just right or just so. So I just can't imagine how to become one's very best

• 1:43:40Michael Gervais?

  without a partner in that process.

• 1:43:42Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, because the accountability piece, the necessity of honesty and the kind of mirroring back, you know, to point out your blind spots. Like, you can't perform this in your own mind because... You're trying to solve a problem with the same mind that created it, right? Which is like an old trope, right?

• 1:44:03Michael Gervais?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:44:04Rich Roll?

  And, and part of the process of getting better and, and transcending these patterns and identifying these blind spots is a bit of a surrender. Like, you have to surrender that illusion of control that you believe you have over these things, and that requires vulnerability and a level of honesty that's uncomfortable. But that's part of it in and of itself, just the act of being able to be vulnerable and honest with another human being and trusting them is like half the game.

• 1:44:34Michael Gervais?

  Yes.

• 1:44:34Rich Roll?

  Altogether. It doesn't even matter what you're saying, like, like, you have to be able to do that in order to even get to the part that's the acute problem that you're trying to solve.

• 1:44:44Michael Gervais?

  So, every year, my inner circle and the, the team at Finding Mastery would do the Year of, and so it's an individual promise that you're making. It's not a resolution, but it's like an intention and a focus for the year. And so for me, the last two years in a row, because I didn't quite have the experience I wanted on the first time, this year, 2023, was the Year of Play. And I wanted to do it more like a panda bear. I wanted to go through life, like, I didn't have predators out there and I could be free and big and play and, like, the Year of Play. And so, my wife is committed to helping me be my very best, and I am in return to her as well. And so, when blind spots are, are noted, I can be defensive, or I can be more like a panda.

• 1:45:29Michael Gervais?

  And that was the kind of the image that I wanted to have when she says, "Hey, whoa, really?" You know, and those, those moments, like, how many times? And so, the way I want to do it is, is a good example, is, so she gave me a moment where she was like, "Hey, you, you're saying one thing and doing another." My reflexive nature is like, "Oh, really?" You know, like, like, defensive, right? And so, this moment that we had, and it was that, and, and I said, "Oh, God, I'm trying so hard. Thank you, thank you." And I've got this big smile, and I just wanted to inhabit being a panda with her. And she looks and she's like, "Oh, I got diffused." Like, "Okay, cool." You know, and so now, I'm, you know, like, so I just think this idea of being playful in these relationships is materially important.

• 1:46:13Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:46:14Michael Gervais?

  And, um, I'm an intense, serious person, and I like that. But I want more range and I want more dimension and I want to have more fun and I want to play more. And so I just bringing this up because it doesn't have to be so serious.

• 1:46:28Rich Roll?

  Right. That's a really good point. Wow. That's interesting. So what is 2024 then? We're not quite there for you to figure that out.

• 1:46:36Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, I don't, I might do it again. Like the year of play again. I've really liked it. And so I feel like I've done pretty good at it. And I think I can still get better. And so when we first met, you inspired me, I haven't shared this with you. It was the year of roots and reach.

• 1:46:52Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:46:54Michael Gervais?

  And so it was after we met. And so roots, be grounded, stay true to your roots, a meditative practice about roots, being connected to first principles, all of that was, is still something I do on a regular basis. But then I was going to extend out to reach because I wanted to build a community of people that are exploring and sharing. And I'm going to share and celebrate how some of the brightest minds like you work from the inside out. The brilliant psychology of excellence, roots and reach, not just reach, not just roots, but roots and reach. I did that for like four years in a row. And so you were part of that, that inspiration.

• 1:47:30Rich Roll?

  Cool. Yeah. Well, you inspired me towards play.

• 1:47:33Michael Gervais?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:34Rich Roll?

  I'm just walking around grinding my teeth, you know, like I just, you know, I need a lot more levity.

• 1:47:39Michael Gervais?

  Pandas are pretty cool now.

• 1:47:40Rich Roll?

  In my relationship to like everything that I'm doing. I get overwhelmed and then I get grave about everything. And obviously that's a cross purposes with the kind of experiences that I'm trying to create here and everything, right? You know, sometimes it's hard to connect with that joy or, you know, what it is that inspired you in the first place to even do this.

• 1:47:59Michael Gervais?

  With the practice.

• 1:48:00Rich Roll?

  Holding on to that. Yeah. Like I need a, an accountability partner on my roundtable for that, right? Can I solicit you for that?

• 1:48:06Michael Gervais?

  A hundred percent. Yeah.

• 1:48:08Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:48:08Michael Gervais?

  Back and forth. I appreciate you.

• 1:48:10Rich Roll?

  One more thing before we round it out. Obviously, you're somebody who believes deeply in the human capacity for change, for positive change. I think a lot of people walk around lacking a sufficient appreciation for their own agency to change their lives. So imparting, I think it would be instructive to share a few thoughts just about, about that capacity, like. What is the nature of change? And what is the best way for somebody who's thinking about or on the precipice of trying to access a better version of themselves? Like, how do they begin to think about what this could look like and take the first step into practicing it?

• 1:48:54Michael Gervais?

  Very cool. If people knew what I knew, based on my unique life experiences and what I've studied and the rooms I've been in with some of the leaders of human potential, they would know this single idea. We are capable of so much more. And there is so much more room to grow, to give, to build, to become. And this becoming, to have a love affair with experience, like we talked about before, and to have a love affair with who you are becoming more often, it's awesome. And we are capable of so much more. And I would just start with like, thinking about what you are capable of. Like, what does the good life mean to you?

• 1:49:37Michael Gervais?

  And using your imagination in that way is where this begins. And if you can have some partners along the way that understand it with you, it does get easier, because it's easy to slide back to the habits of thinking that you've developed over your 20, 40, 50 years of life. And part of the change, whatever change you want in your life, is changing how you think, is changing how you behave. And that is not an easy thing to do to change your thoughts, because they're invisible. So I need to make them public. And I need to be clear about them first to myself, and then clear with other people that have my back and will support and challenge me in that order. And so, start with your imagination about who it is that you want to be and who you want to become.

• 1:50:22Michael Gervais?

  And so much is possible. We must put in real work to create the skills and capabilities for that version of you to become. And then I'll add one more component, which is, just for fun, how many versions of you do you think you're on? What version of Rich are you on?

• 1:50:42Rich Roll?

  Well, there's broad slicing and thin slicing.

• 1:50:45Michael Gervais?

  Yeah. Let's go broad. Let's go kind of big versions.

• 1:50:49Rich Roll?

  Let's see.

• 1:50:52Rich Roll?

  I think version four.

• 1:50:54Michael Gervais?

  I love. Okay, so most people do somewhere between four and six. And I think it's really interesting. People don't say like 200 or 50. It's like somewhere between, we've had four to six massive upgrades or versions of ourselves. Now, there's a 4.1, a 4.4, whatever. But so you're saying version four. And then maybe one way to think about next, the turning of the leaf of the new year is an interesting time. But if you thought about V5, what is V5? It doesn't need to be V10, but what does V5 look like? And use your imagination to push right to the edges where you're like, is that really possible for someone like me who's had, you're about 35, right?

• 1:51:38Michael Gervais?

  About 35 years of trauma and experience.

• 1:51:41Rich Roll?

  25 years of that, but go ahead.

• 1:51:43Michael Gervais?

  Me too. Yeah. So, so like, is that really possible? And then sharing that with your inner sanctum. That's it. It's a pretty cool way to do it. And so what does V5 look like? Maybe make that commitment, the year of as the primary capability that you're trying to build for V5 to be honest and true in quiet moments and consequential moments.

• 1:52:05Rich Roll?

  That's a great frame. I've already done some of that, but I think what you shared kind of brings it into focus in a technicolor way where I have like a context to drill down on it in a more meaningful way.

• 1:52:19Michael Gervais?

  Cool.

• 1:52:19Rich Roll?

  So, thank you.

• 1:52:20Michael Gervais?

  Thank you.

• 1:52:21Rich Roll?

  This is great, man.

• 1:52:22Michael Gervais?

  Yeah, it's really fun.

• 1:52:24Rich Roll?

  You're so good at this podcasting thing. Thought about starting a podcast?

• 1:52:27Michael Gervais?

  I learned it from you. Yeah.

• 1:52:29Rich Roll?

  Finding Mastery Podcast. Anybody who's listening to this probably is already, you know, listening to your show as well. But, um, you know, Michael, your show is a goldmine. And the work that you put out into the world and just your spirit and sensibility, the way that you share and kind of comport yourself with what you do, I think is really kind of a remarkable thing. And I commend you for that. I'm inspired by your example and I'm a fan. And if there's anything I can do to further, put further wind in your sail, I'm, I'm always here for that. So, thank you.

• 1:53:02Michael Gervais?

  That is not lost on me at all. And so, thank you for, thank you for that. Thank you for so much that you've already done.

• 1:53:09Rich Roll?

  Absolutely. And the book is great. The First Rule of Mastery, Stop Worrying About What People Think of You, available everywhere, USA Today, bestseller.

• 1:53:19Rich Roll?

  And perennial bestseller, I'm sure.

• 1:53:21Michael Gervais?

  Appreciate it.

• 1:53:22Rich Roll?

  As time will tell. Yeah, I loved it. And it's just a great way in to start thinking about mastery in a way that I would have not have thought this would have been your first book. But I'm so glad that it is, because I think, like I said at the outset, it just casts this wide net that allows everybody to come in, you know, and there's this welcome mat that everybody can relate to.

• 1:53:41Michael Gervais?

  That's a great way to hear about it. So, thank you.

• 1:53:43Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Until next time.

• 1:53:45Michael Gervais?

  Very cool.

• 1:53:46Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 1:53:46Michael Gervais?

  Cheers.

• 1:53:47Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:53:55Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voice of Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a

• 1:54:37Rich Roll?

  review and/or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic

• 1:55:19Rich Roll?

  and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Salis. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by created by Tyler Pyatt, Tractor Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.