Anne Boleyn: Myths vs Reality

The life of Anne Boleyn has intrigued audiences for centuries. Everyone knows something about her time as Queen of England, and of course, her betrayal and execution. But her formative years in France remain a bit of a mystery. Joining us today is Estelle Paranque, an Associate Professor in History at Northeastern University London, and author of ‘Thorns, Lust and Glory: The Betrayal of Anne Boleyn’. She takes us back to where it all started and unravels the truth behind the story of Anne Boleyn. Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Dougal Patmore. We'd love to hear your feedback - you can take part in our podcast survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on. You can also email the podcast directly at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 0:00Dan Snow?

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• 2:57Dan Snow?

  The executioner was foreign. He was a Frenchman. The English used axes, the tools of butchers and woodsmen. There were too, too many examples of incompetent executioners, taking multiple swings at the nape of a traitor's neck. But this was a queen. The first queen to be executed since, well, the very, very distant and obscure past of Britain. She was Anne of England, Anne Boleyn, the woman who had driven Henry VIII to distraction,

• 3:37Dan Snow?

  the woman for whom Henry had upended his kingdom, broken with Rome and shattered Christendom. To end Anne's life, the Frenchman was recruited. A swordsman, deft, lethal, precise. It would be quick, at least. A final blessing, a last privilege of her brief status as the foremost woman in the realm. There was no head on the smashed, scarred block for this dullest execution. Instead, she knelt, bolt upright, hair tucked under a cap, eyes blindfolded, with the great men of the kingdom bearing witness.

• 4:18Dan Snow?

  When the blow came, it was swift and true. The Frenchman earned his fee.

• 4:26Dan Snow?

  As Anne's head hit the floorboards, Henry VIII was free. You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit, and this is a podcast about Anne. She has captivated people for centuries. She's been portrayed on the big and little screen time after time. Whenever we put one of our Not Just the Tudors podcasts up about Anne Boleyn, it smashes all the audience records. We remain obsessed with Anne. She wasn't a great noble. She wasn't a foreign princess. She was just a very, very clever, an ambitious woman who very improbably became Queen of England. And the first Queen of England to be legally executed.

• 5:10Dan Snow?

  But how exactly did this minor courtier's daughter rise to such dizzying heights? In this episode, we're going to go all the way back to the beginning. We're going to talk about Anne's formative years in various European courtly settings, where she mastered the art of politics and diplomacy and culture and love alongside Europe's elites. These experiences turned her in to the formidable, ambitious, intelligent, politically savvy woman who changed the course of English history. To help us tell that story, I'm very pleased to say we've got the one and only, the phenomenon that is Estelle Perrenque, Associate Professor of History at North Eastern University, London, and author of Thorn's Lust and Glory:

• 5:52Dan Snow?

  The Betrayal of Anne Boleyn. Enjoy.

• 6:17Dan Snow?

  Estelle, good to have you on the show.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for having me, Dan.

• 6:20Dan Snow?

  Anne Boleyn can be quite obscure, her beginnings. Do we know when and where she was born?

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Oh, that's such, that's such a terrific question. So many people disagree, you know, like fifteen oh one, fifteen oh seven. But for me, it's fifteen oh one.

• 6:33Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 6:34Speaker 04

  It's fifteen oh one because it makes sense for her time in France, like when we know she's in France, so she's about fourteen, fifteen. And that would make sense for her to be a lady in waiting at that age. If she was seven or eight.

• 6:48Dan Snow?

  Too young.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  I, I, I do think so. I, I do not see Thomas Boleyn sending his seven, eight year old to France or even to Macaulay before, say. Fifteen oh one for me.

• 6:58Dan Snow?

  Idea of my eight year old daughter by herself in France is just astonishing. But anyway, I digress.

• 7:05Speaker 04

  No, but you know, like fourteen, fifteen, it's already, like, you're considered more of an adult or a young adult, but it, it is totally possible, right? Seven or eight, I don't see it. I'm not saying it never happened, but I just think that it's highly unlikely.

• 7:17Dan Snow?

  And so she, we think so, we were going fifteen oh one.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:20Dan Snow?

  Born in, people say Hever Castle in Kent, or it could be, no, okay.

• 7:24Speaker 04

  Norfolk.

• 7:25Dan Snow?

  Norfolk, right. And that's important because she is part of that super dynasty of the Tudor period, which is the Norfolk's.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  Exactly. And also, like, obviously, eh eh from her mother's side, Elizabeth Boleyn is the Norfolk, right? But from her father's side, Thomas Boleyn, it's all these Irish lords as well.

• 7:45Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 7:46Speaker 04

  So a very, a big legacy. She's not, you know, everyone wants to believe that Anne Boleyn is a kind of a nobody. Uh, obviously, she's not Catherine of Dregon, she's not royal blood, but she's still very, someone with a big lineage herself. And I think we tend to forget that about her.

• 8:00Dan Snow?

  Right, so, so she's got um posh ancestors on her dad's side, but the Howard family of the Dukes of Norfolk on her mum's side. Who are, yeah, they're the power behind the throne right through this period. Um, what about, so what do you know about her childhood? So before she goes on her travels, what do, how would, how would a young girl like that have been raised in this period?

• 8:18Speaker 04

  Well, that's a very interesting question, because actually Ahiva Castle, we know that she went when she was young, and she spent her childhood there.

• 8:25Dan Snow?

  And people can still go visit that in today.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  And they can visit it. And they were pretty, at some point, they had the Boleyn Apartments, and it was an amazing exhibition by Kit McCaffrey and Dr. Winameson and Dr. Alison Palmer. And they did this amazing thing where they tried to make you feel like what it would have been like for Anne Boleyn to play with her brother and her sister, Jordan and Mary. And they had like reproduced like toys, like wooden toys and all these type of things and playing in the gardens because the Heva Castle, like obviously there's a castle, but that's that's the garden, so it's quite amazing as well. So there's all of this and you can really picture Anne Boleyn playing there with, you know, wooden toys and all this type of stuff and where she would have learnt a lot of skills.

• 9:10Dan Snow?

  And her uncle was the Duke of Norfolk, as we discussed. She's very well connected. What, when did she get an education there?

• 9:19Speaker 04

  She did, well, they started the education there, but actually, you know, it's her father at some point was like, you need to get a proper education. You know, there's also this big discussion, like, was Anne Boleyn the eldest daughter? You know, again, not a very controversial question, but a lot of historians will tell you, no, Mary Boleyn was the eldest. But because we don't know, for me, it's very hard to believe that Thomas Boleyn would have promoted Anne's education over his eldest daughter Mary. So for me, I believe that Anna was actually the eldest. It doesn't make no, it makes no sense to give her the, and it's because she would, he would have favoured her and he would have loved her more. But again, I think, first off, it's a bit harsh.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  I mean, if you have more than one kid, you should know that it's very hard to choose one.

• 10:06Dan Snow?

  Very difficult.

• 10:08Speaker 04

  So like, I don't see, I don't see how you would prefer, you know, this daughter over the other one. It makes no sense to me.

• 10:14Dan Snow?

  So we think she's the oldest, so she's

• 10:16Speaker 04

  I think so.

• 10:16Dan Snow?

  A lot of attention being paid to education.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 10:19Dan Snow?

  And why is that? Because he was very progressive or just because noble women ought to be, ought to know what's going on, be able to speak languages, read?

• 10:26Speaker 04

  I think there's a bit of this. I think, you know, he wanted to advance the Boleyn family, the name, his name, right? So we see he married Elizabeth Boleyn of Norfolk. So he really wanted to also push himself into that, to rise. But when you really think about it as well, I I mean, that's my opinion. And I'm gonna say something that's gonna sound a bit also controversial. I'm sorry, Dan. It's just a controversial.

• 10:47Dan Snow?

  That's why we got you on.

• 10:50Speaker 04

  But I think that Thomas Bolland also wanted Anne to have an education, but because it could serve him.

• 10:59Dan Snow?

  Hmm.

• 11:00Speaker 04

  Because when you think about, he's gonna send her, he's gonna use his own network with Cardinal Wolsey, his patron, his own network, to offer his daughter to Margaret of Austria in Mecklenburg, right? And we're here in fifteen thirteen, fifteen twelve, fifteen thirteen. So Anne Bolland would have been very young to be sent there. But why does he do this? He does it because obviously he wants Anne Bolland to learn French, a very important language, Dan.

• 11:29Dan Snow?

  Of course, uh, bien sûr.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  But also, he does this because for him, it's a way to promote her, but to have his ears and eyes in another country and to forge himself his personal rela-, well, is it really personal? It's always a bit political, isn't it? Political relationship with Margaret of Austria. And when everything's gonna change, you know, when the alliance between um, England and Spain is gonna be more complicated, he's gonna switch and that's where he's gonna send or ask to send Anne to France. So we see a father that obviously I think he, I think he, he believed in Anne's abilities. But we also have a father who was extremely ambitious, not in a bad way. I don't think he, he was using Anne as a pawn only.

• 12:16Speaker 04

  But with the aim of advancing the whole family.

• 12:18Dan Snow?

  Interesting. So his choices about education, where he'd send his children are also shadowing England's foreign policy at the time and imperial and relationships. Okay, so talk about Mecklenburg, Anne of Austria, who's she? Why, why, where, what's, why does she want some English kid? Um, to, to be, you know, a, a patron of.

• 12:35Speaker 04

  That is a very interesting question because actually it doesn't make a lot of sense that she would agree for Thomas Bolland to send his daughter. But that's because Thomas Bolland was sent as a special envoy. And I think he she liked him. And when he said, would you mind having, I would like my daughter to learn from you. And Margaret of Austria is obviously from this big, outbook family. She's the aunt of Charles the Fifth. She is like, so she's the governor of the Spanish Netherlands, a very, very strong woman. And why am I insisting on this? Because I want people to understand that Anne Bolland. Met a very strong and powerful woman at only twelve or thirteen years old.

• 13:15Dan Snow?

  And she's wielding power in her own right, as you say.

• 13:16Speaker 04

  Absolutely, she's, she's ruling.

• 13:18Dan Snow?

  Charles the Fifth, one of the most powerful men in European history.

• 13:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, if you say that, your French accent's very hard, but yes.

• 13:24Dan Snow?

  It's a difficult few to hear. I'm sorry, I'm not going to mention King Francis and his embarrassment at the hands of Charles the Fifth. I'm not even going to mention it. Not even mention it. So I haven't even mentioned it. But, so she's running what is now Holland and bits of Belgium.

• 13:36Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 13:37Dan Snow?

  For the, this empire.

• 13:38Speaker 04

  For this empire.

• 13:39Dan Snow?

  Right.

• 13:39Speaker 04

  And, and she's a very powerful woman. So when Thomas, I think she was like amused by the idea of, like, and I think she liked the fact that he was bold to ask. So she said yes. So he sent Anne there and Anne spent time with her. Now, what do we know actually about her time there? We, we don't know that much, but we have a surviving letter of Anne Boleyn during that time that she wrote in Meckelenburg to her father.

• 14:03Dan Snow?

  And Meckelenburg is where, sorry?

• 14:05Speaker 04

  Uh, it's in, well, now Belgium.

• 14:06Dan Snow?

  Now Belgium, okay, fine, yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 04

  So she wrote, um, to, um, her father and she's saying like how much she's learned French and how much she's, um, um, le- learnt, you know, the, the court rules of, eh, and, and that was very interesting because obviously here we, we see what Thomas Boleyn wanted and was trying to do. He was trying to make from a very young age Anne Boleyn politically a suit, politically aware of how power worked. And that's quite incredible. But obviously because of what's happening in Europe, things are going to become very complicated. Margaret of Australia is going to get very annoyed with English because

• 14:50Speaker 04

  someone is looking for a wife with the twelfth of France. Because Anne of Brittany died, the Queen of France died. And Henry X thinks, hmm, if I give my sister a married tutor. But but the Spanish are furious. He had promised Mary Tudor to one of of them. And and he's like, oh, you're gonna break that treaty, you're gonna break that agreement. And we know Henry VIII, of course he will break anything he wants to break. He's a breaker.

• 15:22Dan Snow?

  So there's two big power blocks in in Western Europe, like there's the French, then there's the Empire.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 15:27Dan Snow?

  Okay, so Anne Boleyn's been sent to the imperial side at the moment.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 15:31Dan Snow?

  But now Henry's turned it all on its head.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  Well, he well, Henry VIII, he he like for him, Anne Boleyn right now means not.

• 15:38Dan Snow?

  Oh, sure, of course, yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 04

  But he's like, looking at the, I mean, when I say Henry VIII, you know, we know it's also Cardinal Wolsey, who's really behind. You know, the power here, especially at that time. So here they're they're shifting kind of an alliance. They see an alliance possible with France. Uh it would put an end to the war, it would, you know, the the Italian wars, it's been bloody. And also it gives them energy, it gives them like, um. It gives a more importance to England on the European political scene.

• 16:09Speaker 04

  And Thomas Boleyn is like, oh, okay, Mary Tudor is gonna be sent. So Mary Tudor, not, you know, the the sister of Henry VIII. Is gonna be sent to France. And Thomas Boleyn says, I want Anne to go with Mary Tudor. But Anne is with Margaret of Austria, who's already. Quite annoyed with all of this. So he wrote to Margaret of Austria. Margaret of Austria obviously had to agree. I mean, she can't, you know, keep Anne Boleyn. But she's also very annoyed.

• 16:37Dan Snow?

  So she likes Anne Boleyn, she rates.

• 16:39Speaker 04

  She she said that she she thought she was very intelligent. We have also a letter of hers saying to Thomas that. Anne Boleyn is very intelligent. She loves spending time with her. She learns quickly. You know, it's something that actually Anne Boleyn hasn't come in with Elizabeth the first. When you really look at their education. They learn so fast.

• 16:55Dan Snow?

  So smart.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  Uh very, very smart. And so Margaret of Austria is going to agree. But Anne Boleyn can't get any time back to England to go to France. So here, uh then it's get very interesting here. Thomas Boleyn managed to secure the place of Anne Boleyn in Mary Tudor's, you know, um, court, like, you know, when she's sent to France. By sending Mary Boleyn, the second daughter.

• 17:21Dan Snow?

  Oh, a substitute.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  Exact, a substitute, exactly. And what I love is that in the manuscripts, we have Mademoiselle Boleyn, right? And so, because they don't know if it's Anne or Mary who's gonna go first and who's gonna arrive there. And at first, it's Mary. Anne is gonna arrive after, the coronation, actually, of Mary. So, but she arrives there and then something else happened. You know, like fate always strikes when you don't expect it to stri- to strike. Louis the twelfth is gonna die and Mary Tudor is a widow. And she has to go back, you know, like there's all this saga, she's gonna marry in secret Charles Brandon and it's gonna be.

• 18:01Dan Snow?

  That's right. So the, she's briefly the Queen of France.

• 18:04Speaker 04

  Briefly the Queen of France.

• 18:06Dan Snow?

  Sends his mates out to go and get her and then they get married. Unbelievable, Charles Brandon.

• 18:10Speaker 04

  Unbelievable.

• 18:11Dan Snow?

  So sneaky.

• 18:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's a good term. I would have said something else, but that's a good term done. And then they go back to England. And here's something happens. Mary Boleyn comes back to England with Mary. But here we have a little Boleyn who stayed. And what we don't know, we don't have it in the archives. I haven't found it. If someone else found it, bless you. Uh, I want you to find it or more stuff to find. But here she doesn't come back, she stayed. So someone has asked for her to be a lady-in-waiting of the new queen, Claude of France, the wife of Francis the first. And they accepted. They accepted to have this English woman. And I think again, it's Thomas Boleyn. Why?

• 18:57Speaker 04

  Because Thomas Boleyn has also been sent as a special envoy. And I think he's a very charming person. I think he's very likeable. And I think everywhere he goes, he knows how to flatter people in power. He creates a very strong bond. And then he asked for special favors. And it worked.

• 19:16Dan Snow?

  Extraordinary. And Anne can play the part because she's super smart.

• 19:19Speaker 04

  She's super smart. She doesn't really learn French, so it's not a problem. And and she's she's the same age, more or less, as Claude of France. So I think there's this bond as well with like young. You know, when I say young girls, young women together. And we know that they did get on because we have sources after that said that Anne Boleyn got on with Claude of France and René of France. Catherine of Medici tried to convince Elizabeth to have a special friendship because she said, your mother was a friend of Claude and René of France. René is the sister of Claude of France. And she said, so we should be friends too.

• 19:55Dan Snow?

  So that's that. So that we think of Anne Boleyn as just arriving at Henry VIII's court and being attractive and Henry, turning Henry's head and making him fall in love with her. But she's had this really interesting, important and unusual journey through European high politics.

• 20:16Speaker 04

  Dan, do you know that actually Anne is more travel, well travelled than Henry VIII or even Catherine of Aragon? Isn't it crazy? Because we think of Anne, you know, when you think of France, you think you think of Paris, right? Newsflash, France is not Paris.

• 20:33Speaker 04

  She went to the Mediterranean.

• 20:35Dan Snow?

  Really?

• 20:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:36Dan Snow?

  As part of the Queen's entourage to travel.

• 20:38Speaker 04

  Exactly. So in October fifteen fifteen, Francis the First had been in battles in, you know, in Italy and had his first victory in Marignano. And he comes back, you know, he's into Louise of Savoy. His amazing and wonderful mother, Francis the First's mother, decided to take the court to the south to celebrate him and to welcome him back. So here you have Claude of France, Louise of Savoy, Marguerite of Angoulême, Francis the First's sister. And the ladies in waiting, the court, that is going to go through like the Château de la Loire and go down Lyon, Toulon, Tarascon, and Orange, and obviously Marseille.

• 21:26Speaker 04

  Now, we never talk about this. It never appears anywhere in the books on Anne Boleyn. And I wonder why, because don't we understand like the impact? I want you to understand that each time these women stopped in a city, the, you know, the tapestries, the pageants were about women. It was about celebrating Louise of Savoy and Claude of France. And Anne witnessed that, witnessed women being powerful, influential, loved, praised. I mean, and she's, you know, fifty years old and she's like, oh my God. And then she sees the Mediterranean for the first time, the only time of her life. What an opportunity.

• 22:09Dan Snow?

  Is it an opportunity here for the English cause in France? If she is, she's learning, she's developing, she's growing. But is she able to represent English interests? Or is she able, is she playing, is she playing a role here on the stage?

• 22:23Speaker 04

  That is so interesting because like she's the lady in waiting to Claude of France. So technically, no, she, she, she's not, she's not an ambassador. She's not, she, but, but.

• 22:37Speaker 04

  We, we don't have the letters. But somehow Thomas Boleyn seems to know what's going on with Claude of France. To the point where Francis of, of first himself. So for example, there was one night where Claude of France was pregnant. She's always pregnant, but she was pregnant and she was really in lots of pain. And Thomas Boleyn knew about this. Who else would have told him? Who else would have spent time with Claude of France being, you know, in lots of pain while pregnant? Anne. So we know there is a big correspondence between them two. There's another thing, you know, I've been asked a lot about is like, do you think that, you know, Anne could have been an interpreter, you know, with the Field of Clothes of Gold or other kind of meetings with ambassadors? Yes, I do.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  And people are like, but Catherine of Aragon and Henri IV, they did speak French. Yes, but can we see the difference between speaking French and being fluent?

• 23:32Dan Snow?

  Yes, I'm familiar with that difference.

• 23:34Speaker 04

  It is a big difference. When you are completely absorbed in a country, you can understand when five, six people are speaking at the same time the language. When you, when you just speak the language, even if Henri IV was absolutely amazing with French, I'm sure he was, or Catherine of Aragon was absolutely amazing. Catherine of Aragon, such a powerhouse as well.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  But I'm sorry, I think Anne was needed. I think Anne played a role because I think she was able to understand everything that they were saying. I think you you're not the same when you become bilingual. You're faster, you understand better, you understand the jokes. She's she becomes culturally French. She spent seven years with them, with the French, poor her. No, I'm kidding. It's great.

• 24:18Dan Snow?

  And and so that and it's good for Thomas Boleyn because if he's getting this brilliant intel from the heart of the French state, it boosts his standing in in

• 24:26Speaker 04

  And his relationship, right? So he's like, so Francis really liked the fact that Thomas shows concerns and he knows. And they see them as friends. That's why when, you know, when they call back Anne Boleyn to England, we know that it's gonna be, there's gonna be a war, as obviously starting between uh France and England. But Francis is like very hurt. He's like, why are you calling her back? She's been with with us for seven years.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  And it's when he knew like something was, you know, obviously going wrong here. But I love the fact that we have Anne Boleyn. This nobody was actually witnessing grandeur and, you know, magnificent things from France because Paris Court is, I mean, I have to say like, it's the best court.

• 25:14Dan Snow?

  I know, it's it's difficult for us to admit, but yeah, we're the English are always a bit of a pale shadow.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  And I think so. I'm sorry, Dan.

• 25:21Dan Snow?

  And so let's talk, speaking of grandeur, let's, you mentioned Field of the Cloth of Gold. Just remind us what what happens there. Henry the Eighth meets King Francis. Whereabouts and why is it called Field of the Cloth of Gold?

• 25:31Speaker 04

  So the Field of the Cloth of Gold happens just outside of Calais because we know, unfortunately, Calais.

• 25:36Dan Snow?

  The mighty English Empire in France. Still little to little, little the town of Calais. Okay.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  Done killing me. But yeah, so it is a very important event because Francis the First and Henry the Eighth are basically, um.

• 25:53Speaker 04

  Showing that they are very good and strong friends. Here it's about the alliance. It's about showcasing the alliance that it's unshakable. And also, it's very rare, right? We know that it is an erdoff to have two kings like meeting and having this magnificent time together. So there's going to be tournaments, celebrations, festivities, obviously beer and probably wine.

• 26:17Dan Snow?

  Bit of wrestling.

• 26:18Speaker 04

  A bit of wrestling, a bit of wrestling. Do you want to talk about this? I mean, it's not good for the English.

• 26:24Dan Snow?

  No, what's.

• 26:25Speaker 04

  He lost, he lost, he lost.

• 26:26Dan Snow?

  Henry VIII wrestles Francis and loses, fine, okay.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  I know, exactly.

• 26:29Dan Snow?

  Let's keep, and there's wine fountains and there's.

• 26:32Speaker 04

  It's, it's, it's magnificent. It's such a, a beaut-, a very expensive time for, I think for both courts, actually. It ruins them both.

• 26:41Dan Snow?

  And Anne is part of this.

• 26:42Speaker 04

  Anne is there.

• 26:43Dan Snow?

  You're saying pos-, pos-, really, a key part, yeah.

• 26:45Speaker 04

  And Elizabeth Boleyn are there, and Anne is there. She's on the French side.

• 26:50Dan Snow?

  Yeah, extraordinary.

• 26:51Speaker 04

  She's with Claude. But it's the first time she's gonna meet Henry and Catherine of Ragon. I would like it here just to remember, you know, because people are like, always think that it starts with a big rivalry between the two queens Catherine and Anne. No, it starts with a big respect, a big allegiance from Anne. I mean, let's not forget that the Boleyns were like, uh, really respected Catherine of Ragon. At that time, like fifteen, twenty, fifteen, there's no problem, right, between Anne Boleyn and Catherine of Ragon at all. So it starts like on something very good, very promising, and obviously it's gonna go downhill. But, but here we have Anne that is gonna witness as well these two kings.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  And I wonder sometimes, you know, I don't know if you do that when you, when you do work on your own research, but sometimes I wonder, do you think like she was like, I can see their similarities because they are so similar in the type of men they were, like very, you know, warrior kings, Renaissance king. Very narcissist. Like.

• 27:54Dan Snow?

  Yeah, charismatic but narcissistic as well.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  Both, both of them, both Francis and Henry. And I wonder if she realised that, witnessed that, um, we will, I guess we will never know because we can't interview her, but uh. But that's something I've always wondered when I, when I was working on her.

• 28:11Dan Snow?

  The Phil the cloth girl, the diplomacy, there's lots of fancy words, but not much lasting legacy. Cause England, France will end up going to war.

• 28:19Speaker 04

  Well, we, I mean, we always do, don't we?

• 28:21Dan Snow?

  Yeah, sure.

• 28:22Speaker 04

  The French and English, we, we love each other and we love to hate each other.

• 28:25Dan Snow?

  Yep.

• 28:25Speaker 04

  So it's, we fall in and out of love constantly. And I think that's exactly what happened. But I thought they, no, but they really tried, you know, that they actually, and maybe it's and, and, and uh, Francis, the first relationship is so remarkable. Because it's, there's lots of, you know, of breakups, but they always come back together, don't they? It, it, it is interesting when you just look at, because yeah, there's gonna be like a fallout again, but then they're gonna be friends again. A fallout again. So I don't know, it's, it never, it never lasts.

• 28:57Dan Snow?

  But after this, but, but when, during one of their periods of falling out.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 29:01Dan Snow?

  A, Anne, Anne is summoned back from France.

• 29:04Speaker 04

  She's, she has to leave France, yeah. So she, they.

• 29:06Dan Snow?

  Because England and France are about to go to war.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, and Thomas Boleyn asked her to come back before, obviously, like, uh, there's this fallout. So that's when Francis, the first like, oh my God, what's going on? Why are you asking your daughter to come back?

• 29:21Dan Snow?

  Interesting.

• 29:21Speaker 04

  Because, and so that was the first warning for French, something, something up is, is about to, to happen, right? And so like Anne comes back and we have this idea that Anne's come back and she, you know, she's still, you know, Henry's heart as soon as she comes back. That's not really true, is it? She comes out fifteen, twenty one, uh, she's still very much a nobody, but they're trying to put her as a lady in waiting too. Catherine of Aragon, so she's placed into Catherine of Aragon household, right?

• 29:50Dan Snow?

  Because she's now an accomplished.

• 29:52Speaker 04

  Oh, she's done it with Margaret of Austria, with Claude of France. She, she's so, I mean, she's the perfect lady in waiting, apart from the fact like, what happens next?

• 30:01Dan Snow?

  Yeah, yeah, until that point. Uh, just to finish off thing in France, scurrilous misogynistic rumours about her, her sort of sexual adventures in France, do we have any evidence for any of that?

• 30:12Speaker 04

  No, never happened, all right?

• 30:14Dan Snow?

  Okay, fine.

• 30:14Speaker 04

  No, we forget something about Anne. We have this image, it comes from like her detractors way after. Anne is a very pious and religious woman. She is a very Catholic. In France, she also meets Margaret of Angoulême. France is the first sister. And we also, Margaret of Angoulême, everyone is thinking, oh my God, you know, obviously this big reformist. Yes, she loved reformed ideas, but especially in the fifteen, late fifteen thirties and fifteen forties. Anne is dead by then. In the fifteen twenties, you know, and late fifteen tens, Margaret, yeah, she, she reads some books. But she's not a, a full reformed person.

• 30:58Dan Snow?

  She's not what we might, a, a beginning of a Protestant.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  No, she's not.

• 31:02Dan Snow?

  She's not on that journey.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  And I think we have a big problem with that, Dan, and I'm gonna have a go on your podcast, I'm sorry. But I think people don't just change their religion like, ah, you know, oh yes, today I'm gonna be a Protestant. It takes such a long time for you to read books. It's not because you read a book like, oh my God, yes, I'm gonna become Protestant. It takes a long time for you to change your mind about something so important as religion. We're talking, they all believed in God. It's not, it's not, you know, it's part of their daily life. Anne Boleyn is extremely Catholic. Her family is extremely Catholic. There's no other way. Now, is she interested in the conversation? Did she hear some stuff that were interesting? Probably Anne loved reading.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  Margaret of Angoulême loved the idea of women being well educated. So I think Anne benefited from this, but I don't think she changed her mind about religion and then came back to France and tried to change everyone's, you know, everyone else's mind. I don't think that happened at all.

• 32:01Dan Snow?

  Here's to Dan Snow's history. We're talking about Anne Boleyn, more coming up.

• 32:11Dan Snow?

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• 32:53Dan Snow?

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• 33:36Dan Snow?

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• 35:16Dan Snow?

  Okay, so she's arrived at the English court. She is, she's not burning with some secret prostant zeal that she's picked up on the continent. So she's, and she's now waiting to meet Queen Catherine of Aragon?

• 35:27Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 35:28Dan Snow?

  How does that go?

• 35:30Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, the evidence, probably it went well. It went well until it didn't go well, until... And again, again, I know the thing that's going to be very controversial, but I want to debunk the myth that Anne Boleyn pursued Henry the Eighth. Anne Boleyn is not the homewrecker that everyone thinks she is. Now, but like, we have to stop with this. She didn't care about Henry the Eighth. She, she wanted to marry Henry Percy. So the Earl of Northumberland, very important family. Obviously, they were not sure about, you know, him marrying a Boland, you know, it was a bit below their status. But that, that's beyond the point. There's also Cardinal Wolsey that stopped that marriage because Henry the Eighth was starting to be interested in Anne Boleyn.

• 36:13Dan Snow?

  Oh, I see. Okay. So you've got a Percy, it's one of the great families of England. They, they have got a burgeoning romance.

• 36:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:20Dan Snow?

  They're falling in love at court. And Henry the Eighth, Henry the Eighth actually orders that to.

• 36:24Speaker 04

  Well, there, there is kind of like evidence that Cardinal Wolsey is not, is trying to do everything he can to make sure that it stopped. Maybe he's the one who suggested that the Bolands were not high standard, you know, as high standard as the Persis, so maybe it should not happen. Whatever we know, what happened for sure is that that marriage never happened. And then, then Anne Boleyn was kind of offered, well, would you like to be my mistress?

• 36:47Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 36:48Speaker 04

  You know, and, and, and she's like, no.

• 36:50Dan Snow?

  And this was normal in this period, that kings would take mistresses?

• 36:54Speaker 04

  Yes, well, he had mistresses before, Bethblunt, who had children, Henry Fitzfry, like a.

• 37:00Dan Snow?

  And they would be like Anne from sort of aristocratic backgrounds, gentry and noble families?

• 37:05Speaker 04

  Well, it really depends, depending on the kings and depending on, but actually, I don't think Bethblunt was.

• 37:10Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 37:10Speaker 04

  From a very nice background and he, he gave her lots of lands and, and wealth. Actually, it's very interesting with Henry the Eighth. Uh, if you compare him to Francis the First, who, you know, he was shacking every, any woman he could. Uh, well, Henry the Eighth, I think is someone who's more, um. He pick, I mean, I hate the guy.

• 37:27Dan Snow?

  Sermon on a horse.

• 37:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, he.

• 37:31Speaker 04

  He picks one at a time, right? So like, he's like you and then you and then, but then I'll kill you, right? Like, you know, I, I don't know which one is best.

• 37:38Dan Snow?

  He's a romantic on one level, isn't he? He sort of falls in love.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  It's what people say.

• 37:42Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 37:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, but I think that there might be a bit of truth in that. But he's still like, for me, a, a massive monster, but that's.

• 37:49Dan Snow?

  Okay, well, we can all agree on that. But yes, but it'd be not like Francis. He's not, uh, he's not just having sex with people and then just getting rid of them straight away. Okay.

• 37:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not, he's, he's not, or, or at least we don't have the evidence that he's doing that, right? We don't have that evidence. So he, he's gonna pursue Anne Boleyn. He's like very interested in her. I think it's the fact that she's, she's well travelled, she's well educated, she's different.

• 38:12Dan Snow?

  Yeah.

• 38:13Speaker 04

  But Anne is like, okay, what are you offering me here? To be the second woman? You know, I've always felt like Anne Boleyn was so modern for her time. But honestly, if you have a friend and she tells you, Dan, you know, I met someone, he's married. And I told him, no, you you leave your wife and then you marry me. You'd be like, you go, girl. Good for you. You don't want, right? But like, because here, you know, it's a queen and you're like, oh.

• 38:40Dan Snow?

  Do the right thing.

• 38:41Speaker 04

  What a bastard. Like, you're not nice. You're you're stealing him. She's not stealing anyone. She's like, you want me? You divorce your wife. I want the whole thing. I want to become queen. And then, yes, it's, I mean, I I. You know what? I don't know if she promised that she would have a son. But obviously, that was. You know, like saying you don't have any, right? With Catherine, that you know, we might have one.

• 39:03Dan Snow?

  Yeah, sure.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  So.

• 39:05Dan Snow?

  Okay, should we just also, you've mentioned her her sister, you think younger sister, um.

• 39:10Speaker 04

  Mary Boleyn.

• 39:10Dan Snow?

  Mary at this point. Has has Henry the Eighth also had an affair with her?

• 39:14Speaker 04

  Oh, Dan, you're gonna hate me. More contro- more controversy for you. I don't buy it.

• 39:19Dan Snow?

  You don't buy that?

• 39:20Speaker 04

  And I want to tell you why.

• 39:23Speaker 04

  Because of the evidence. The evidence we have, the real one that we can really rely on, is Henry the Eighth himself, once he wants to get rid of Anne. He said, well, actually, we can't really be married, you know, when, you know, fifteen thirty five, fifteen thirty six, like, he's like, ah. Because I had a an affair with with Mary. So he's doing what he did to Catherine of Aragon, you know, when he was like. You actually slept with my brother and that's why we don't have a son. He's doing that again. Do I really believe him? That after so many years, now he's saying that, yes, you know, he had an affair with Mary? I'm not saying it's impossible. I just say that. I just find it so convenient. And also, we know that the other sources we have, so Nicholas Sanders and stuff, it's in fifteen seventies.

• 40:05Speaker 04

  So under Elizabeth the First's reign. And I think it's to discredit Elizabeth, as to kind of really tarnish.

• 40:12Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 40:13Speaker 04

  Her legitimacy. Saying, you know what?

• 40:15Dan Snow?

  Your mother's.

• 40:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, Mary Boleyn, Anne Boleyn, your family.

• 40:20Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 40:20Speaker 04

  So I don't, I, I mean, I'm, again, I'm not saying the, it's not entirely, that it's not possible, maybe it is, lots of historians actually believe that Mary Boleyn was a mistress, and maybe she was. But I found it very convenient that it was used against Anne Boleyn, and it was used against Elizabeth the first, so I'm just, I'm just a bit cautious about it.

• 40:38Dan Snow?

  Okay, interesting. So, but either way, Henry wants to make her his mistress, she is saying no.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  She's saying no.

• 40:44Dan Snow?

  That's quite remarkable, isn't it?

• 40:46Speaker 04

  It is remarkable. It is so remarkable. And she lived also to Hever Castle and is gonna write. I mean, people cause it love le- letters. Can we stop with that? They're lust letters, right? It's like, and he's talking about her breasts and stuff. I'm sorry, you send me a letter where you talk about my breasts, it's not love letters, is it? I mean, you see what I mean? Like, so it is massively lust, okay? But he's pursuing her, and I think the fact that, you know, he sent her gifts, she rejects the gifts.

• 41:11Dan Snow?

  Wow. Does she want to be queen at this point? It's a bit, it's sort of unimaginable. I mean, it's quite a stretch, isn't it? That, that a anointed king would marry somebody, would fall in lust with someone and marry them, to get rid of his wife and marry them? It's just feel.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  It is unheard of.

• 41:24Dan Snow?

  Yeah, it's unheard of, yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  It's unheard of. It is, it is quite, uh, something.

• 41:29Dan Snow?

  So what do you think she's going for at the moment? What's her plan?

• 41:31Speaker 04

  I think, I think I thought she's just saying no.

• 41:34Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 41:34Speaker 04

  And I think that, uh, her game is like, or is to be able to find a suitor for her later on, and I think she's just not interested in playing that game with him. But because he keeps pursuing her, I think at some point she did fall in love with him.

• 41:49Dan Snow?

  Ah.

• 41:50Speaker 04

  And then I think that then she's like, yeah, okay, well, I, I want it all. I want, I want the whole package. So, you know, we have a very, the, the, the break with room really starts in fifteen twenty seven, right? It's all when the, all this discussion about the annulment with Catherine, you know, when she's humiliated at court. All it start in fifteen twenty seven, when we start the idea that maybe Henry should not just rely on the Pope and what he's saying. And during that time, fifteen twenty seven to fifteen thirty two, when they actually get married, fifteen thirty three with Anne Boleyn's coronation and then the birth of Elizabeth. Quite a long time, five, six years together, where, and it's, it's like they, they become very close.

• 42:34Speaker 04

  He's like, he's completely devoted to her, isn't it? Like he, it almost seems like he loves her. I don't believe he can love anyone, but, um, and she does, I think, really love him. And they kind of this power couple together. And it's where, like, the reformed ideas that she read, it's like it, that's starting to grow on her. Like to be like, okay, well, um, and there's Thomas Cranmer that's playing a role that's talking about, you know, maybe we don't have really to conform to the church, you know, in Rome. They call him no longer the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, you know.

• 43:10Dan Snow?

  So that's, so Anne is going through her own, on her own personal journey with, with this man she loves. And she's thinking, I'd like to become queen. And as it happens, there is this intellectual ferment in, in, ferment in Europe at the moment around changing church practice, reform, we call Protestantism. So both, it's sort of working on a bit of a twin track. She's like, hang on a second. This, this is, this might, the idea of reforming religion and reforming my personal life and prospects.

• 43:38Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 43:38Dan Snow?

  Sort of linked together here.

• 43:39Speaker 04

  But it's also for Henry, right? It's also, Henry the Fifth is like, why am I listening to someone?

• 43:44Dan Snow?

  Yeah, this guy in Rome.

• 43:46Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 43:47Dan Snow?

  Who's saying I can't get divorced.

• 43:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, be, just because Charles the Fifth obviously sacked Rome and is in control, Charles the Fifth, the nephew of Catherine of Aragon.

• 43:55Dan Snow?

  Yes, let's go through this bit. So Charles the Fifth is super emperor we talked about, who I promised not to mention.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know.

• 44:00Dan Snow?

  He has, he has captured Rome. He's got the Pope hostage.

• 44:03Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:04Dan Snow?

  Unfortunately, he is the nephew of Catherine of Aragon.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  And there's no way he's gonna let the Pope agree on an annulment.

• 44:10Dan Snow?

  Which, which is weird because traditionally popes allowed kings to get annulled quite, it wasn't the end of the world.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I mean, I mean, yeah, I, I honestly think if it wasn't for Charles the Fifth, it would have gone through.

• 44:19Dan Snow?

  So the Pope would be like, fine, get divorced, I don't care, annul and then marry someone else, which is not that unusual. Okay. So, but because of the family politics, the popes can't do it.

• 44:27Speaker 04

  Can't do it.

• 44:27Dan Snow?

  And then Henry's like, what? Who's the Pope anyway?

• 44:31Speaker 04

  Well, it's more, oh, first, okay, that, that's where it gets interesting. And that's where I think is, let's talk about the French side here, because the French have a huge involvement in that. Francis the First was like, hmm, he's interested in Anne Boleyn. I know Anne. Anne was in France. Oh, that would be interesting to have, uh, uh, you know, a queen.

• 44:50Dan Snow?

  Very useful.

• 44:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, that could be like, we, she's a Francophile. She loves the French. She's gonna favor, she's already starting to favor the French anyway. He's like, oh, I love, and he hates the Spanish, obviously. And so he's like, that's great. And so he gets involved. So he's like, okay, wait, because he, he's very Catholic, Francis. Yeah. How do you think he was also very Catholic anyway?

• 45:10Dan Snow?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Speaker 04

  And they talk, and, and Francis is like, let me see if my theologians in Paris can agree that you can, you know. That you can get the, so there's lots of things that happens actually in France. And they all agree that he can get an annulment, that it should be, it should be possible.

• 45:25Dan Snow?

  Yeah. So King Francis is like, hey, Henry, I think you can get annulled.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  But he doesn't just do that, Danny. He sends special envoys to Rome to convince the Pope. Did you know, actually, that I find, I find it crazy.

• 45:39Speaker 04

  They try until the, until they really fail, until there was no way they could work. That makes me think that Anne Boleyn really, really, really, really wanted the Pope to recognize her. Which shows that despite the fact that she might have been interested in reformed ideas. She's still extremely Catholic, even in fifteen twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine, thirty. And she still wants to be recognized as, you know, as a Catholic queen of England. To a point where in fifteen thirty four, I call it like the impossible mission. Where Jean Du Billlet, a French ambassador, but also he's a bishop, is gonna be sent by Francis the First. To Rome, he love, Jean Du Billlet loves, uh, Anne Boleyn. He, not, not in a weird way. He just, he just, he just adored her.

• 46:23Speaker 04

  And he, he sent that and he's gonna try all he can to make the Pope agree. An annulment. You know who stopped it? Who betrayed him? Henry the Eighth.

• 46:33Dan Snow?

  What?

• 46:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, Henry the Eighth sent, didn't send the special envoy. He had to send to back, to back up Jean Du Billlet. And Jean Du Billlet got betrayed by the Spanish there, the Spanish bishop, the Italian bishop. And he was waiting for Henry to send him the, the backup he needed. And Henry, you have letters of Henry telling him, yeah, yeah, I'll do it. I'll send them now. He never does. And that tells me. That's Henry's break with Rome.

• 47:02Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 47:03Speaker 04

  And Anne actually never wanted the break with Rome.

• 47:07Dan Snow?

  So Henry's decided I'm through with the Pope.

• 47:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we we talk also about excommunication, you know, the fear of. Doesn't happen right away, does it? It takes a long time for him to be excommunicated. It's like, bring it on.

• 47:21Dan Snow?

  Interesting.

• 47:22Speaker 04

  It is a very complex time politically. But what I found, ah ah for me, when I was doing the research, it was heartbreaking to see how the French tried so hard to make her the legitimate Queen of England. And when when they failed, at that time, that was, you know, that was the last thing they could try. Then obviously like, you're on your own.

• 47:42Dan Snow?

  If Francis of France had managed to stop the Reformation happening in England, and Anne Boleyn had been crowned Catholic Queen of England, what a world we'd be living in now.

• 47:52Speaker 04

  I know.

• 47:54Dan Snow?

  Extraordinary.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  It didn't happen because of Henry VIII. It's definitely his Reformation. But but not a religious one, or not righto. You know, he doesn't, he doesn't become Protestant. He's a Catholic until his death.

• 48:07Dan Snow?

  He's Catholic, but he does, he's fighting with the Pope, rejecting the Pope.

• 48:11Speaker 04

  But, yeah, for his own authority, head of the church.

• 48:14Dan Snow?

  Which is, which people have been doing for, Henry the Second did that. I mean, everyone's fighting. Philip of, Philip of France. I mean, that guy, he fought the Pope the whole time. Okay, so it's not yet a kind of deep rooted transformation of British, English religious society.

• 48:29Speaker 04

  Not yet, not yet. It comes later.

• 48:30Dan Snow?

  That will come later. Okay, so we've got, we're in the fifteen thirties now. Henry decides, that's it, I'm not, I don't need the Pope's permission, I'm I'm annulring my marriage.

• 48:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So so but no, so that's why it's interesting. Fifteen thirty two, there's the, so there's the meeting in Boulogne and Calais between Francis the First, Henry VIII, and Anne Boleyn.

• 48:52Speaker 04

  There's, you know, celebrations as well, festivities, and Henry VIII tells Anne Boleyn, you do not come to that. She disobeyed him, went, and we knew for a fact she had a discussion at that time with Francis the First. What we don't know is what they said each other. But what we know is that once they left Boulogne and Calais and went back to England, Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn got married.

• 49:18Speaker 04

  And obviously, we're going to have a baby. You know, like later, nine months later, there's Elizabeth. Then Anne Boleyn is crowned Queen of England, first June fifteen, um, thirty-three. And all I'm talking about is after, the French didn't stop, they still tried. You know, Francis the First could not believe what happened, he was like, and I, that's why I don't really know what, like, what he told her, for her to feel like, okay, um, we're gonna do it. Because he must have said, I will back you, I will support you. And I think she misunderstood him, like, support, like, I'm on your side.

• 49:54Dan Snow?

  Yeah.

• 49:55Speaker 04

  But he can't go against the Pope, Francis the First, because he's trying to get his second son to marry the Pope's niece, Catherine of Medici, so he's like, please don't up. So, you know, it, it, no, but you have to understand that everyone has their own agendas. And I think Francis the First really liked Anne Boleyn as a person. He was like, don't mess with my plans. And everything I told you about Jean de Belhaud going to, to Rome is in fifteen thirty-four. So it's a year after Anne Boleyn being crowned in England and everything. She's still looking forward to be like, recognized by everyone. She wants to, and so that's crazy because we don't talk about this. We, we assume that, boom, fifteen thirty-three, you have to break with Rome. That's not true, it goes on for longer.

• 50:41Dan Snow?

  More Anne Boleyn after this.

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• 51:23Speaker 02

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• 52:05Speaker 02

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• 52:21Dan Snow?

  She's still to be recognized. It's actually Henry who's thinking, I don't even want the recognition.

• 52:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's like, at that point, he's like, I don't care.

• 52:27Dan Snow?

  How popular or otherwise is their marriage in England?

• 52:31Speaker 04

  Well, it depends, obviously. There are lots of supporters of Catherine of Aragon. Obviously Catherine of Aragon, the way she was humiliated, like castaway. Like, I mean, let's face it, it's been horrendous for her from 1527 to until her death.

• 52:44Dan Snow?

  Embarrassing.

• 52:45Speaker 04

  Absolutely. But there are people that do like Anne. You know, when people are like, oh, you know, our coronation, everyone was like, no one cared. And that's not true. People loved having a party anywhere. And, and she had, obviously, you know, we don't talk enough about Anne and what she did for the people, but did you know, Dan, that she supported the poor? That she had charities set up? Did you know as well that Anne Boleyn, when she died, had lots, lots of debts? Do you know why? Because she was a very good, well, a very nice landlady, not good financially. Because if one of her tenants were like, oh, I can't pay this amount. She was like, no, it doesn't matter. You'll pay, you'll pay next time, babe. No, but do you imagine Anne Boleyn being like this? No, we never talk about the fact that she was, yeah, yeah, she, she had a bad temper. She could be annoying.

• 53:30Speaker 04

  She was, she didn't treat well Princess Mary, Catherine of Aragon. Of course, they wanted the same man, right? They loved the same man. But she was so loyal, so when you were her friend and on her side, she, you know, she was hundred percent loyal to you. And she was so good with her people, with charities, the poor, she was really trying. A good woman lady as well, like she always on the, oh, we're having a hard time. Well, you'll pay me later. And that's why she ended up with lots of debts, unfortunately, but um, I mean, she was dead, so who cares?

• 54:04Dan Snow?

  Exactly, who cares?

• 54:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know.

• 54:06Dan Snow?

  Die with debts, that's my, that's my policy. Uh, she has a child, but it's, uh, very disappointingly, a girl.

• 54:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, the best queen.

• 54:15Dan Snow?

  Who turns out to be the best queen in the history of England? Exactly, fine, best monarch, not just best queen.

• 54:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 54:20Dan Snow?

  Although, hang on a second, we have done an episode with our Irish colleagues who, who would beg to differ on that one, but.

• 54:25Speaker 04

  I know, I know, and they're right though.

• 54:27Dan Snow?

  They're right as well, but certainly someone who's um, often thought to be what the best monarch in English history, Elizabeth. But at the time, she's second daughter, they wanted a son, she's a footnote.

• 54:39Speaker 04

  It is, it is tough.

• 54:40Dan Snow?

  Does that, when did their relationship start to go sour?

• 54:43Speaker 04

  It's, well, people will tell you it's when Elizabeth the first was born, that's not true. I mean, not that time, so seventh September fifteen thirty three, we have Elizabeth, and obviously it's a big disappointment, right? But Anne Boleyn truly loved her daughter, ca- cared for her, um, showered her with gifts, but even Henry the Eighth, at the time, he really loved, and he thought, all right, okay, he thought, she's healthy, it's our first baby, she's healthy. Because the problem with Catherine of Ragon, and I think people don't really discuss that, is the fact that most of her children, some of them died unfortunately in infancy, right? But a boy like Henry died, he was one or two years old. So it, it, all her baby, apart from Princess Mary, were kind of

• 55:25Speaker 04

  sick or ill, and he was like, okay, first kid, first healthy kid.

• 55:31Dan Snow?

  Yeah.

• 55:31Speaker 04

  So he was like, okay, we, so at that point, there's no, he's disappointed, must be like a slap in the face. But at the same time, he's like, okay, we can make it work. So they keep, they keep trying, but they keep having fights because obviously, it's that Anne Boleyn is, she has an opinion about everything, love her, but she's starting to, Ash, did you know that she voiced her concerns about the dissolution of monasteries?

• 55:53Dan Snow?

  Okay.

• 55:53Speaker 04

  So she didn't like what he was doing, and she told him and Thomas Cromwell, she confronted both of them, saying like, you're doing that for money. And they hated that. They hated that what she she was, you know, fighting for the dissolution of monastery. She was sending money to the monks that were losing their homes and stuff. They hated that she was doing all of this. So they had lots of fights and the fights were public. We have fight massively public between Henry the Eighth and Anne Boleyn. So imagine in private, I don't even want to imagine. But they always seem to make up. And so you, there's no, you know, it doesn't fall. It's up and down, up and down, up and down.

• 56:32Speaker 04

  And she gets pregnant again. But um, a miscarriage, okay. And again, oh, another miscarriage. And again, she's pregnant again. And this time, it's fifteen thirty, January fifteen thirty six. But this time, seventh, January fifteen thirty six, Catherine of Ragon died. Anne Boleyn is five months, four, five months pregnant, twenty weeks, you know, I mean, we can't really know for sure. You see what I mean? Like quite showing. But not too much either. Miscarriage. And here we see the fetus was a, was a boy.

• 57:10Speaker 04

  And not that time. It's not, I think, January fifteen thirty six to what's gonna happen, April and May fifteen thirty six, or her downfall. That happened so quickly. You have Henry the Eighth and I, what, what's, you know, I've had enough. And people pushing Jane Seymour.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  In his arms. And Anne is starting to get jealous because I call her a substitute French princess in my book, but she's not French. She doesn't bring, you know, a dynastic alliance.

• 57:40Dan Snow?

  Interesting, okay.

• 57:41Speaker 04

  Her relationship with Henry the Eighth is the reason why she's Queen of England, why she's so important. So losing that, like losing his affection, is losing everything.

• 57:51Dan Snow?

  Yeah, she can't fall back on being an important foreign.

• 57:53Speaker 04

  No, it's like she can't be. And Catherine of Ragon is now dead. So before, it's why it's so, for people to understand that. As long as Catherine was alive, she was safe. Because for the Catholic, he was already married to Catherine. For the reformed or people who believe that there was more than Catholicism, he was married to Anne, right? But if she died, people were like, the Catholics were like, well, he can remar, they don't believe in Anne Boleyn's marriage. Right? Like he can remar, and everyone is telling him, get rid of her. And it's, how do you get rid of her? And the problem with her is that with with Anne is that she's gonna be, she's gonna make a very big enemy out of Cromwell. She actually is going to threaten him indirectly.

• 58:35Dan Snow?

  And now Thomas Cromwell, people will know from the the books and the wonderful TV shows, is is Henry's chief minister at this point, his fixer.

• 58:43Speaker 04

  He's, yeah, and he's the most powerful man in England. Uh, he's gonna, you know, he's so powerful, he controls everything. And Cromwell's had enough of Anne. At first, he obviously supported her. I mean, at first, he he's behind her. But then he's like, he doesn't like the fact that she has an opinion on everything. He doesn't like that she voiced her concerns about the dissolution of monasteries. She voiced her concerns about what he was doing, you know, basically, and and.

• 59:10Dan Snow?

  And presumably you can also see Henry falling slightly out of love with her.

• 59:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, also like thinking, I need to make my king happy, right? Uh, my to make my king happy, I need him to have a son. And for but Cromwell is starting to also he blames Anne for what happened to Woolsey. You know, he thinks that she played a role in in his downfall and Woolsey was his master and patron. So there's like kind of like, uh. He's starting to get annoyed with her and Anne is going to indirectly threaten him.

• 59:40Speaker 04

  And you don't threaten Cromwell unless you do it, you get rid of him.

• 59:46Speaker 04

  Or if you threaten him, you you're done, because then he was, she threatened him in March. By approach, he was gone, you know, like she was arrested. So you can see here that he was like, okay, what's awful though, Dan? It's obviously what's going to happen to her and how they're gonna think about of a downfall. Henry the Third wanted the downfall. He's the one who's gonna tell Cromwell, get rid of her, I've had enough. And Cromwell, how? Find a way.

• 1:00:19Speaker 04

  And you know, I I know many people realize that story, but Anne Boleyn, the end of April. Uh so Eustace Chapuis, who is the imperial ambassador, the man of childhood fifth, you know, the big guy, the emperor. Even him didn't understand what was going on at the end of April. He's like, the king and the queen, so um well, he doesn't mean the concubine. Anne Boleyn are supposed to go to Rochester. But here, I see the Privy Council meeting. And no one is telling me what's going on. You know, he's always hearing it and he's everywhere. And he has no clue what's going on. And Anne is, the the date where she uh she's supposed to go to Rochester with Henry the Eighth.

• 1:01:01Speaker 04

  Gets delayed and she waits and she waits. And when the finally you come to get her. It's not to get her, to send her to the Tower. You've been arrested for high treason. What? I thought I was going to Rochester. That's it. You know, do you do you see what like? How your world flipped upside down?

• 1:01:19Speaker 04

  With what they what they did to her. And then she's to the Tower of London, second May, fifteen thirty six.

• 1:01:27Dan Snow?

  And she discovered uh quite the rap sheet against her. It's adultery.

• 1:01:34Speaker 04

  Incest.

• 1:01:35Dan Snow?

  Incest.

• 1:01:35Speaker 04

  High treason.

• 1:01:36Dan Snow?

  High treason. Bit of witchcraft in there?

• 1:01:38Speaker 04

  Well, they, well, it it's what Henry the Eighth said, like it's they.

• 1:01:41Dan Snow?

  But still.

• 1:01:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Dan Snow?

  Pretty and cons- well, conspiring, high treason, so conspiring to kill the king.

• 1:01:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:47Dan Snow?

  That was any uh any truth into any of those allegations?

• 1:01:51Speaker 04

  Absolutely not, nothing. They have absolutely nothing. And incest with her brother. You know, when you look at the source about like um the trial of Anne Boleyn, where all the accusations are made against her. You have to imagine, first of, you you have to imagine Anne in front of all these men. Her uncle, Duke of Norfolk, is there. Most of the men that have a seat. She put them there. You know, they were part of the Boleyn faction. There's Cromwell that, you know, with whom they've obviously worked together for a long time. And here she's listening to what they say. So like that she. And it's how it's written. She violated the mouth of her brother.

• 1:02:35Dan Snow?

  Oh.

• 1:02:36Speaker 04

  Anyway, no, worse than that. Honestly, you you read. So you have the dates and the places where she would have had. You know, there's there's so many men. There's Marx mentioned, the the musician, there's um the old music instructor. There's Henry Norris. There's so many, you know, all the men that are gonna die. And they said to her that two weeks, it's it's not funny, but twenty first September fifteen thirty three. It said in the trial, you went Hampton Court shagging Henry Norris in the garden of Hampton Court.

• 1:03:08Speaker 04

  She gave her the seventh September fifteen thirty three Greenwich. You you are impure. You you you you're not allowed to go anywhere after giving birth for six weeks. So they're saying she went on a boat, went to Hampton Court of all the places, went to see Henry Norris. Ah, I just want sex right now. And when in a garden in of all places, right? Oh, take me here. I mean. Insane. Do you know, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna paraphrase what Anne said. So I'm gonna listen to all that.

• 1:03:40Speaker 04

  And then he said, you know what? I get it. You want me dead. Oh, no, he she said, he wants me dead. Fine, but please, save the lives of these innocent men who did nothing.

• 1:03:55Speaker 04

  At a time where it was her trial, she knew that, you know, it was an endgame, it was a foregone conclusion. She didn't think about saving herself. She wanted to save the men that were accused with her. Doesn't it tell you everything you need to know about Anne? Hon- honestly, I think we do not talk about this enough.

• 1:04:13Dan Snow?

  Well, I'm glad we're talking about it now.

• 1:04:14Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:04:15Dan Snow?

  Uh, so she was found guilty. The men in question were killed. Her her um efforts were not successful.

• 1:04:21Speaker 04

  Absolutely not, yeah.

• 1:04:21Dan Snow?

  Uh, including her brother. Now, she was killed at the Tower of London. Did Henry get married the same day? I can't remember.

• 1:04:29Speaker 04

  No, he's hunting. He with Jane's him on the same day and he married her ten days later.

• 1:04:34Dan Snow?

  He married her ten days later.

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  Can you imagine for Jane as well? Like, you know, we love beating all these wives against one another, but like, can you imagine? Oh, great.

• 1:04:41Dan Snow?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Speaker 04

  I'm next. That's lovely.

• 1:04:44Dan Snow?

  And they sent the final bit of the French Connection. They sent a someone to get a French executioner to do the do the job on Anne.

• 1:04:52Speaker 04

  But what's very interesting is obviously. We know that it doesn't take, you know, it's not a two hour, you know, kind of travel time, right? But her trial is on the fifteenth of May, she's executed on the nineteenth of May. So for the guy to arrive, he was already asked to come way earlier than that. You know, they didn't, you know, you couldn't call someone, say, okay, she's guilty, please come. And you know, when you think about like the arrest, second of May, uh, and then the execution nineteenth of May, do you realise how quick it is?

• 1:05:22Speaker 04

  But what doesn't he tell you? It tells you that he doesn't want the news to spread. He doesn't want France to know. The French, you know, so the, the, I mean, the French ambassador was not a huge, at the time was not a huge fan of Anne Boleyn. But his secretary, uh, Lancelot de Cal, who's gonna write the life and death of Anne Boleyn and is gonna record, he's a witness of her death. Um, he, he wants everyone to know in France what Henry the Eighth did. Henry the Eighth is gonna try to censor that book and Francis de First is gonna say, okay, I will not let it get published, but he doesn't stop. The, the book to be circulated in the French court because it shows Henry the Eighth's cruelty.

• 1:06:04Speaker 04

  It shook Europe. Francis de First after that is like, I'm not sure I want you to marry, you know, someone from France, you know, like my daughter, no, it's not gonna happen. My sister, no, not gonna hap- you know, no one's gonna happen because it's like when Marie de Guise, you know, he wants to marry Marie de Guise after Gene Seymour, um, died. And Marie de Guise said, my, my neck is too small, you know, I don't, I don't, yeah, no one wants to marry Henry the Eighth. He's a murderer. There's no other explanation. But what's so interesting about Anne is that obviously she's executed at the Tower of London. But can I tell you a little story when she was imprisoned?

• 1:06:45Speaker 04

  She thought about two people, eh eh eh, you know, um Kingston, the one in charge of the tower, met her a few times and twice she was crying. She was crying for Elizabeth, her daughter, leaving her behind. So she's gonna ask uh Chaplain, Matthew Parker, to, he promised to her, I will look after her, and he did. Well, as as as much as he could. But the second time she was still crying and Kingston is like, why are you crying? And I'm thinking about my mother. She's gonna gonna lose two of her children. And you know what? It's not the worst thing that happened, actually, Dan. For me, the worst thing is that you have to imagine the Bolins, so Thomas and Elizabeth are back at Hever Castle. Do you know who arrived at Hever Castle?

• 1:07:29Speaker 04

  Cromwell and his men, and they destroyed everything that Anne possessed. That's why we don't have her letters. That's why everything has been destroyed and it's so hard to get to her words. That's why also the work of Kate McCaffrey is so important, you know, with the Book of Hours. Because Anne gave that to her ladies-in-waiting and they passed it on women, you know, the women protected Anne's legacy.

• 1:07:54Speaker 04

  But otherwise, everything else has been destroyed because Crom- Henry the Eighth ordered Cromwell to destroy everything. Probably he didn't want, you know, the letters or stuff that could be remembered. And isn't it good now that we're still talking about her right now in your podcast?

• 1:08:11Dan Snow?

  In defiance of Henry the Eighth.

• 1:08:13Speaker 04

  Exactly, a tyrant.

• 1:08:15Dan Snow?

  Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and doing that.

• 1:08:17Speaker 04

  Thank you, Dan.

• 1:08:21Dan Snow?

  Thanks so much for listening, folks. We really hope that this has helped you better understand what's going on, given you a bit of context. And if you think your friends, family, colleagues would enjoy that, then please, please do share with them. Whatever your podcast player, whatever you're listening on, it will let you share this as a link or even a WhatsApp message. That sharing is the lifeline of this podcast and what keeps us going. So thank you for listening and thanks for sharing. Join us next time for another episode of Dan Snow's History.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

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• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Apple Card, issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 1:09:45Speaker 03

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• 1:10:45Dan Snow?

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