Dr. Orna Guralnik: Couples Therapy 101 (FBF)

Join Alex in the studio for an insightful interview with esteemed couples therapist, Dr. Orna Guralnik. Orna explains what to expect in couples therapy, when it’s the right time for you and your partner to go, and why there should be no shame in working on your relationship. They discuss how to have healthy disagreements, what a “lived in” relationship looks like, and how there’s usually more to an argument than meets the eye. Finally, they talk about the psychology behind why people are drawn to toxic relationships and ultimately stay in situations that don’t benefit them. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 1:43Alex Cooper?

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• 2:27Speaker 03

  What is up, Daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:36Alex Cooper?

  Dr. Orna Guralnik, welcome back to Call Her Daddy. I am in shock that it's been, I think it's three-plus years, right?

• 2:45Speaker 04

  Unbelievable. I sort of didn't feel like it was three years. It feels like a year and a half ago.

• 2:52Alex Cooper?

  Right? Yeah. I guess it's also because like we do stay connected and we do communicate through email, which makes me so happy. But we haven't literally seen each other in three-plus years, which is bananas to me. To anyone who is new here, Daddy gang, Orna is a psychologist and psychoanalyst, and she is the star on the docu-series Couples Therapy, where you counsel real patients about their lives in their coupled dynamic. And a new season is coming out.

• 3:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 3:24Alex Cooper?

  And Matt is screwed because when a new season of Couples Therapy comes out, I go MIA. I sit in my room and I binge the entire thing in one sitting. So, thank you.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  Okay, you have to explain to me how you process all of that information, like in one binge.

• 3:42Alex Cooper?

  I think it's because I get so invested in these people's lives. And I want to know, like, are they going to stay together? Are they going to progress? Like, what is the trauma that they're about to uncover? And like, I think it feels like the most real show I've ever watched. Like, you're so incredible at extracting information from people in a way that makes them feel comfortable. But also, like, you fall in love with these people.

• 4:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:06Alex Cooper?

  You know? And I love that we get to see their home life and we get to see them as like real humans. And it's not just this like fake facade of like a fun show to watch people talk about trauma.

• 4:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:15Alex Cooper?

  So I'll be binging.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  I'm very, very curious to talk to you after you watch the show.

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• 6:47Alex Cooper?

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• 7:29Alex Cooper?

  But couples therapy, I feel like everyone now is like, oh my gosh, get into therapy. It's the best thing. But couples therapy still has this negative connotation for couples. Why do you think there's such a big stigma around it?

• 7:43Speaker 04

  Well, I think first of all, there's this, I don't remember if we talked about it last time, but there's this like really intense firewall around couples in general. Well, people do not like to share the fact that they're having struggles and trouble in their couples' relationship with other people. There's some need to kind of preserve a certain kind of,

• 8:04Speaker 04

  some kind of facade of what a couple is like, especially when people get married.

• 8:10Speaker 04

  So, in that sense, it's not only the couples' therapy, it's just the idea that couples are having trouble is very scary for people. They don't want to talk about it. They don't want to expose it. It's almost like they're calling in bad spirits if they talk about it.

• 8:29Alex Cooper?

  It's a good point. And I also think there's a...

• 8:33Alex Cooper?

  Fear of if you share too much in a vulnerable moment, then when the next day you're fine and you're at the park and you're smiling, you almost feel this shame of like, oh, I'm embarrassed. And I feel like I can't recover from what I shared. Like, I definitely had moments in the very beginning of my relationship with Matt, where like, I would share with a friend if we had a fight. And then I felt a little awkward because I'm like, well, we're still together, but like, we worked through it. And, and then the friend is, is almost like wanting to check in on you and you kind of don't want to keep bringing it up. So it's like, there's this like social element of you don't need to, they don't see everything.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  Right.

• 9:12Alex Cooper?

  And when you share the bad, they also don't get to see that.

• 9:15Speaker 04

  You don't want to leave that bad impression. And also, you're responsible, you have another person's trust in your hand.

• 9:21Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  So talking about it, it's a little bit like, does your partner have the consent? Have they given the consent? It's complicated.

• 9:29Alex Cooper?

  How does someone know if they should start couples therapy with their partner?

• 9:34Speaker 04

  Funny, people ask me that. I'm not of the, of the school that believes that everyone should be in couples therapy and it's always good. I, I don't think so. I think there's a certain kind of window in which couples therapy is a good idea. If you're in a relationship and you feel like there's a certain kind of pattern that feels destructive and not like, not a growth pattern that keeps repeating, and you and your partner are trying different ways to change it and nothing's changing, you feel like you're kind of stuck and whatever you're doing is just either repetitive or making things worse, that's a good time to bring in a third person and, and try to get some perspective on it.

• 10:17Alex Cooper?

  Do you feel like if someone comes to you and is like, I'm terrified he's gonna cheat? And you're like, well, has he given you any reason to, that he's gonna cheat? And she's like, no, but my past and whatever. Then it's like, would you ever be like, so you probably need to go to individual therapy?

• 10:33Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:33Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 10:34Speaker 04

  Yes. That, that's not a good idea to go to couples therapy in that moment.

• 10:38Alex Cooper?

  Right before anything bad happens.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  Right. I mean, but people sometimes do that. It's like, they think of it as like premarital counseling, like, tell me how to like, avoid all the problems that life is gonna present me with. And it's like, there's no way. Life's gonna present you with problems and patterns are gonna emerge and you can't like, protect yourself against it. It's life. It's like, go in and live it. And, and when you need to get someone to help you. And then, on the other end of things, if people wait too long, sometimes it's too late, really. I mean, it's, it's a very sad thing, but you know, I, I see sometimes couple that come in after years and years of slogging it and, and kind of avoiding the problem or repeating

• 11:19Speaker 04

  issues. And by the time they come in, there, there's just like, not enough goodwill left in them, not enough love or not enough hope. And as much as they try, it's really hard to resurrect the relationship. So.

• 11:35Alex Cooper?

  That's interesting.

• 11:35Speaker 04

  So that's kind of the window for me.

• 11:37Alex Cooper?

  Okay. What if someone's sitting here listening, Orna, and is like, I want to go to couples therapy so badly, but my partner refuses and has no interest?

• 11:47Speaker 04

  Common.

• 11:48Alex Cooper?

  How do you deal with that?

• 11:49Speaker 04

  There's one thing which is to get over the hump of starting therapy, which often one person is more resistant and more scared of doing that. And that, getting over that particular hump of just the beginning is not, I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, I, I can tell people, look, just like, ask your partner, give it a try, or barter. You know, say something like, if you come with me to couples therapy, I'll offer this for you. I'll, I'll go your way in some other way. You know, we can go like, take that trip I've always refused to do, or, I don't know.

• 12:22Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 04

  So getting people through the door is not that hard. But then it's the job of the therapist to make sure that both people feel like it's a safe place. It's a place where both of them can get something out of it. Because I think what often people are afraid of is that they're going to be dragged into a therapist's office, and they're going to be ganged up on, and everyone's going to try to force them to give up something that matters to them, to change in a way that they don't feel is right for them, or it's not going to be for them. And, you know, the, the job of the therapist is to make sure that you're really helping the couple, not one person. And I think once two people feel

• 13:06Speaker 04

  like they're really being heard and that they both have something to gain from it, they're gonna want to stay.

• 13:12Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. I think that's what is a huge misconception about couples therapy from the person that is not wanting to go and is kind of reluctant. Like, I think so many people are like, I'm literally going to get attacked.

• 13:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:26Alex Cooper?

  And I guess there, if you could like, explain to people maybe that are listening, like, what can they expect in couples therapy? Because you're right, I think people are terrified of it. I think that the person that sets it up, the other person is like, oh, there, you guys have a plan and I'm not in on it and you guys are gonna try to like, push me into a corner. Like, how would you explain it to someone who has never done it, but is a little trepidatious about going into it, but is like, Orna, what, what am I gonna walk into?

• 13:57Speaker 04

  That's a really good question. I think what I would say to people is like, think about therapy, about couples therapy as a place where you have the chance to really imagine what you want out of the relationship. And to have in the therapist, an ally of the relationship, someone who can help you and your partner get to something that you actually want, together. Meaning, it's not a situation where anyone should feel cornered. I mean, there are moments when people are gonna face difficult things about themselves

• 14:39Speaker 04

  and be asked to grow and expand and maybe give more than they're used to. But the ultimate idea is that you're, you're there to gain. You're there to gain something that matters to you. And if that's not happening in therapy, you're not in the right place.

• 14:56Alex Cooper?

  I think that's incredible to hear, though, because I think anyone that hasn't been raised around therapy being a healthy, happy, positive thing, it's a really intimidating experience to even conceptualize because you're picturing someone staring at you, judging you.

• 15:14Speaker 04

  Right.

• 15:15Alex Cooper?

  And that is intimidating because vulnerability is intimidating in the first place. And to have someone that's like a specialist, I could see someone who's not aware of how a therapist actually acts towards you could be like, oh, this bitch is gonna fucking judge me and it's gonna tell me I have all this trauma.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  And it's gonna be painful.

• 15:34Alex Cooper?

  Yes. And why are we opening all this up? I'm fine right now.

• 15:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:38Alex Cooper?

  And it's like, well, you're fine until the next fight starts. And then you go back to your patterns because of whatever happened in your childhood, when you were in your home, the way your parents treated you, that you, like, it's all connected.

• 15:48Speaker 04

  Like, why people don't go, for example, to have a mammogram or a colonoscopy, that they're both like afraid that it's gonna be painful.

• 15:56Alex Cooper?

  Fear.

• 15:57Speaker 04

  And they're afraid of like, what they're gonna find out. And that is not what happens in therapy.

• 16:02Alex Cooper?

  So true.

• 16:03Speaker 04

  It's, it should feel, I mean, it's not like, you know, Luna Park, it's not like fun, fun, but it should feel like an enriching, good experience of like, being heard, understanding someone else, kind of in a richer, deeper way.

• 16:17Alex Cooper?

  There's clarity.

• 16:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, and truth.

• 16:19Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. So I'm curious, I feel like a huge part of the show is people come to you and are trying to learn how to manage conflict. I mean, it's like, that's every relationship. How do we fight? How do we communicate? How are we gonna handle these things? What is the biggest mistake that you see people making when arguing with their partner?

• 16:44Speaker 04

  There's people, I don't know if to call it a mistake, but I think where conversations go wrong, where conflict goes wrong, is first of all, just on the simple level of, level of agitation. Like, again, like I was talking earlier about like a window, like a good window, there's a good window in which decent conversations can happen. And that's when you're not either too upset or too activated or too wounded, that you can't actually process. And then the conversation is not a real conversation. It's just like either a crying,

• 17:20Speaker 04

  screaming, whatever match. And on the other end, you can, people can feel so shut down or hopeless, that they're not really engaging. There's, they're withdrawing from the conversation. So, so the, maybe the most basic thing for people for a good conversation, for good conflict, would be to make sure you're in the right zone. You're not too shut down and you're not too over, whatever, agitated.

• 17:50Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 04

  The other big, kind of still tactical issue is, and, and this is, it might seem just tactical, but it's actually pretty deep. Are you noticing when you're busy trying to convince your partner of something? And when are you actually trying to understand them?

• 18:16Alex Cooper?

  Shots fired. Yeah.

• 18:19Speaker 04

  Right. It's huge. It seems like it should be simple, right?

• 18:22Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 18:22Speaker 04

  But it's huge. And I see it in my couples. I actually just had a session with a couple this morning, where they kind of realized that difference and what, how it will change things if they really move into deep listening mode rather than convincing, convincing.

• 18:42Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 18:42Speaker 04

  And it changes everything.

• 18:43Alex Cooper?

  It does, because it's like, when you're in those moments, you almost have blinders on where you're like, I will get him to understand my point. Hell or high water.

• 18:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:54Alex Cooper?

  And he's on the other side being like, I need her to understand what I'm saying. And so you're just like, hitting a wall and it's balancing back at you and you feel crazy and you're like, no, how don't you hear me? And then it's like, if you can get to a better, yes, you're literally, nothing is penetrating. It's like.

• 19:12Speaker 04

  And people get increasingly frustrated. Both sides get increasingly, because it's not a conversation.

• 19:17Alex Cooper?

  It's not. On the show, you say, and this is kind of what we're talking about, but I think this is like a huge thing for my listeners that they always write in about. You talk about how there is usually so much more to the fight than what the couple is actually specifically arguing about in that moment. How does one step back and see the bigger picture? Because it's difficult.

• 19:39Speaker 04

  Very. I think.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  I think the, you know, when, when it's in the heat of the moment, when, when the iron is hot, I think it's a lot to ask of people to really know always what's going on and what might be feeding the superficial fight. I think maybe a realistic thing to ask of people is to have a voice in there that says to, one says to oneself, I'm sure it's not only about this. There must be other things going on for me that I'm not exactly aware of right now. I'm gonna, if I need to, if I feel like I'm getting too, you know, there could be signals that you're getting too heated about something that shouldn't be. And then you can say to yourself, maybe I should pause, think about it for a while and come back

• 20:26Speaker 04

  to the conversation, not in the heat of it.

• 20:29Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  But just to maintain this kind of kernel of curiosity, I have an unconscious, there might be other things going on here. There are signals that, that you give yourself when you're like, when you get too excited about something, too upset. Like, there's a feeling that you get when, when something else is going on.

• 20:47Alex Cooper?

  Yep. I love that in the show, though, when you have those moments with someone because, again, I think like sometimes in romantic relationships, there's a dynamic that you're trying to sustain. And like, the ego does come into play sometimes. And so I understand when I watch people on the show, like, one person doesn't want to give it up. But then when you ask the brilliant question of like, can we pause for a minute? What do you think this, what else is this about for you? Like, what hap, like, what was your relationship with your mother?

• 21:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:18Alex Cooper?

  And then all of a sudden, the person goes down a spiral of like, well, she never gave me attention and I was always fighting for attention for my mother. And then all of a sudden, before she even finishes the sentence, she's like, oh, I guess it's because she, she never is looking at me in a way that I feel like I'm having to like, ask her for attention. Like, it's all these inner dynamics that we had growing up.

• 21:39Speaker 04

  I know that when it's in the moment, when your, when your partner triggers you, let's say in the way your mom triggered you, it's very hard in those moments to like, step out and say, oh, it's my mother issues that are playing out right now. Because it feels so real and so intense in the moment.

• 21:59Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 22:00Speaker 04

  It's hard. It's hard for people to do.

• 22:02Alex Cooper?

  Do you have any advice? Like, how do we check in on ourselves and determine if we're picking a fight quite literally just for the thrill of conflict? Like, I think people do love conflict.

• 22:14Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 22:16Alex Cooper?

  Give us some advice, Orna.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, I like that you're saying that, the thrill of conflict, because I talk to people about that.

• 22:23Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 22:25Speaker 04

  People don't usually like to acknowledge that.

• 22:27Alex Cooper?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:28Speaker 04

  I think what I would say is, first of all, it's great to acknowledge that there is such a thing as the thrill of conflict.

• 22:38Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 22:40Speaker 04

  And I'm gonna say something even slightly provocative. There's nothing bad with that.

• 22:46Alex Cooper?

  Okay, Orna.

• 22:48Speaker 04

  I know. Like...

• 22:51Alex Cooper?

  Who is she?

• 22:53Speaker 04

  No, I'm not like, I don't think like the, I mean, people are different in what they need in their relationship, but I think sometimes people who need to have fights or, or pick on each other, or let out some steam through the relationship, or I think that's okay. I mean, it's, relationships are not supposed to be this kind of hallmark, picture perfect, like, sweetness thing.

• 23:20Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 23:20Speaker 04

  It's, it's a place where people live.

• 23:22Alex Cooper?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  Um, and discharge on each other, um, and use each other, and in small ways betray each other and recover. I, I think that's life. And, and I think for people not to be so hard on each other for using each other in that way, for, for living in the relationship. It's just like, you know, I often talk about the fact that I don't, I don't use like, I don't even use coasters on my furniture. I'm like, furniture is to be used. Like, like, leave a stain and cut through the board and, and it's like, that's what it's here for.

• 23:59Alex Cooper?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:00Speaker 04

  And relationships are like that, too. You want the relationship to be an alive place. I think where it gets, um, problematic is if you're really hurting each other.

• 24:10Alex Cooper?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:12Speaker 04

  And if there's something too pernicious about it, or if like, the thrill of injury is what takes over, or of retaliation or injury, that's when I'm like, I draw the line and I'm like, no, that is not, you're not there to like, um, abuse each other.

• 24:29Alex Cooper?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:30Speaker 04

  And not every fight isn't abuse.

• 24:33Alex Cooper?

  That's a really great point, because I think when couples say like, oh, we had a fight, like, most of the time, you could also change it to like, we had an argument or like, we had a disagreement.

• 24:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:45Alex Cooper?

  And I think when, you're right, though, like, it, it can be healthy to have fights because you're working through something. But there is a difference between a fight and then something that is like, absolutely abusing the relationship and is getting you nowhere, and it's just to push and hurt. But I love what you said, though, um, about how there should be conflict and these relationships, like, we're living in them. I think we've watched, growing up, for decades and decades, like, historically, when you think of romantic relationships, they're held on a different pedestal than every other relationship in our life. Like, who the hell has a perfect relationship with their parents, with their

• 25:26Alex Cooper?

  siblings, with their friends? Like, of course, you're gonna have conflict disagreements, growing pains with friends and family. Why do we think that that wouldn't also be true and present in romantic relationships?

• 25:40Speaker 04

  The person you're the closest to.

• 25:42Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, that you have to like, live with and wake up with and like, load the dishwasher with.

• 25:49Alex Cooper?

  Right. Right. And I think that's like, it, it's, it's helpful to talk about that to make people feel better of like, of course, no relationship is perfect. But when your primary dynamics were in the household you were growing up in, of course, families are gonna fight. Now, your new family that you're building, of course, there's gonna be problems. But it's how do we actually like, address the problems? Is it to be cutting and to go beneath the bell and to make the person feel bad? Or is it like, you're talking through a disagreement and like, you're gonna sit at the table all night till you guys can find a way to come back together?

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• 28:50Alex Cooper?

  been trying so hard to take care of myself during this pregnancy. And I think something that has been very helpful is actually learning about the things that now I will carry, not only just during this pregnancy, but I will continue to take care of myself in a way that I really never have before. I think sometimes as women, we don't have the tools or we don't know what we're supposed to be doing. And so we sometimes just freeze and we don't do anything. And since having Ritual in my life, it has been so nice to have this daily ritual where I'm actually taking care of myself and my baby, which feels great. So whether you're pregnant, postpartum, or looking for everyday trusted daily gut support, get clinically studied biotics to support your gut health with Ritual. My listeners

• 29:32Alex Cooper?

  can save 25% off their first month at ritual.com/callherdaddy. That's ritual.com/callherdaddy for 25% off your first month. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. I need to know, and this is for all the daddy gang out there that are like, don't call us out, why do some people find toxic relationships so exciting and so addicting?

• 30:03Speaker 04

  Hmm, hmm. Okay, ah, good question. How, how would we frame it? Um, I mean, the, the more kind of classical psychoanalytic way to

• 30:17Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  think about like, why people get pulled towards like abusive and toxic relationships is that it's some form of what we call in jargon, repetition compulsion.

• 30:27Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 30:28Speaker 04

  Where something is unresolved, let's say a past dynamic is unresolved, or past trauma, or a way that you were treated in an earlier stage of your life is unresolved and unworked through, and you're kind of looking for some way to repeat the same issue that you haven't resolved. Um, whether it's to master it, to, to come out of it better, or because there's just this kind of, um, compulsion to just repeat the same thing. So that's one reason people get stuck on, on toxic relationships. But there are other ways to think about it, like...

• 31:10Speaker 04

  Toxic relationships, one of the things they do and toxic relationships, I mean, sometimes it's too wide a term.

• 31:16Alex Cooper?

  Like, I think maybe not, I don't think we need to go as far as like, it's abusive. It's just like this very unhealthy, like this person is constantly playing games, constantly like, is there a version of like little gaslighting, like it's not full blown gaslighting? Like, you know what I mean?

• 31:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, it's, you know, I, I often try to like, when, when I talk to people about like, they're clinging on to relationships that are not good for them. Sometimes it's, um,

• 31:52Speaker 04

  when a person feels on some level damaged or bad about themselves or,

• 32:00Speaker 04

  shame about certain aspects of themselves. They at times go for situations that reinforce that view of themselves.

• 32:14Alex Cooper?

  Interesting, because as you were saying that, I was having a moment where I was thinking about when I was in college. I had been like super insecure when I was younger and I would go for these men that like,

• 32:28Alex Cooper?

  it was like, I was trying to get the, the guy that was so unattainable. And when I would get him, I was like playing the game back, but there was a part of me that like enjoyed it because it felt like it was like, validating to me, like you got him, like you did it. And it was almost like healing the wounds of me feeling like no guy wanted me when I was younger. And like, I would get picked on. And so when I would get these guys that was like the captain of the hockey team, it was like, I almost was going for like in my brain accolades of like, I want to get there to prove, it was more to prove to myself I can. I never felt fulfilled. I never felt happy, but it was like, I was replaying, oh, if I was younger, these are the things I wish I could have done.

• 33:12Alex Cooper?

  And then I got there, I'm like, oh, this isn't fun.

• 33:14Speaker 04

  Right.

• 33:14Alex Cooper?

  Like, I don't feel happy. I don't feel seen, but it was like an ego thing almost.

• 33:18Speaker 04

  Right. And you can, and that is, in a certain way, you're trying to repair something.

• 33:23Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 33:24Speaker 04

  But sometimes it's, I mean, you can, in a way, flip it and you can see people who are not doing it to repair, they're doing it actually to just keep telling themselves, I suck, I suck.

• 33:36Alex Cooper?

  And what do you, what is that mostly from childhood that creates that?

• 33:39Speaker 04

  It's a form, I mean, you can think of it as masochism, but it's, it's like, um, it's a, it's being stuck on a certain kind of repeat. It's, um, self negating, I mean, people do all sorts of neurotic things that are bad for them.

• 33:55Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 04

  For, I mean, that's why we have psychoanalysis. I mean,

• 33:59Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  There are many ways that people do things that are bad for them.

• 34:03Alex Cooper?

  Have you found through psychoanalysis, like any repeating pattern from childhood that would make someone constantly try to remind themselves of how they're not worthy, not good enough?

• 34:14Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 34:15Alex Cooper?

  Can you share? Just a couple of examples?

• 34:18Speaker 04

  Well, the classic example, I mean, it's kind of an extreme example, but think of the classic pattern of people who've been, let's say sexually abused as children. And then in teenage years, they're like, they enter like a series of like abusive, promiscuous relationships that just make them feel like shit, because that's the only way they can, they know how to think of themselves. It's like an endless self punishing cycle. It's very, I mean, it's like a very particular kind of dynamic with people who've had like early abuse. That it, it takes like deep work to move out of that pattern, but.

• 34:56Alex Cooper?

  You know, that, that's so helpful. Yeah. I think, because I think again, why I appreciate these type of conversations in the show is like, I think a lot of people who maybe have not even begun to like experience therapy or thought about it, or just wasn't a part of their upbringing, like that statement alone could, would be crazy to people. Like, hold on, so someone that was abused is now going to go and like, and.

• 35:21Speaker 04

  Put themselves in harm's way.

• 35:22Alex Cooper?

  Right. And they, it'd be like, wait, what? Like, I think they just never have sex for the rest of their life and they'd be shut down. That's just not the case, but I think these type of conversations help explain to people like the intricacy of trauma and how it unfolds in your adult life. But I appreciate you sharing that because I'm sure, I mean, one in every what, three women, like so many women listening to this show may be sitting there like, oh, my God, Orna.

• 35:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:50Alex Cooper?

  I think I'm.

• 35:51Speaker 04

  I think I'm doing that.

• 35:52Alex Cooper?

  And how do you even begin to like, what, just therapy and talking through it?

• 35:57Speaker 04

  I know the work of therapy. I mean, there are other ways that people deal with issues, but in psychoanalytic, in psychoanalytic work, what we do is we, I mean, this is like, yeah, it's different with each person, but, um, you, basically the idea is that you try to go back and revisit the actual experience and help the person now with their more mature mind really tend to what happened to them, to the injuries, to, to what was missing. Try to imagine how things could get better. Like you really try to tend to all the areas that were disavowed and neglected over the years and, and heal.

• 36:39Alex Cooper?

  And I understand why that sounds absolutely terrifying to people.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:45Alex Cooper?

  Like, people with that type of trauma or any type of trauma, you're like, hold on, Orna, I'm supposed to go back and relive it?

• 36:52Speaker 04

  Right.

• 36:52Alex Cooper?

  Are you crazy? Like, I put it away, I tucked it away.

• 36:55Speaker 04

  Right.

• 36:55Alex Cooper?

  But I think what people realize when they come out on the other side of it is there's such power and resilience you feel within yourself when you can go back and you can start to take control over your own life and not let this thing that happened to you

• 37:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:12Alex Cooper?

  define you.

• 37:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:13Alex Cooper?

  Because it does start to define you when you don't.

• 37:15Speaker 04

  Right.

• 37:16Alex Cooper?

  Address it. It comes up in your romantic and your friendships and every part of your work life. Um, and that's when it gets terrifying.

• 37:23Speaker 04

  And people, it's so important for people to feel like they're not, like you're saying, defined by bad things that happened to them in the past, that they have some freedom, some degrees of freedom out of that.

• 37:34Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. Back to couples, how big of a role does sex play in a healthy relationship?

• 37:43Speaker 04

  Um, it's funny, I just saw something in the, in the Times today that I haven't read yet, but about like people that are talking about how sex is not that important in their marriage. I think it varies a lot. I think not only is sex like a, you know, this kind of domain that could, goes anywhere and people have like all possible things in their mind and in their bodies and then that can transpire between them and sex is like a huge terrain. But, um, the importance of sex and like what meaning people assign to sex in their relationship varies a lot.

• 38:22Speaker 04

  I think for some people, having an ongoing connection through the body, through sexuality is incredibly grounding.

• 38:36Speaker 04

  And without that, they feel, um, unmoored.

• 38:43Speaker 04

  And for other people, it's not like their main, it's not where they live, it's not where the essence of their life is. I mean, for some people, it might be like in the far out intellectual domain and, and the body is kind of a sort of byproduct that they tag along, but they really live in their mind and they want to live there with their partner. It really varies a lot between people.

• 39:08Alex Cooper?

  Cause I've had conversations with friends and I have a large spectrum, as you would expect, like I have one friend that's like, my parents weren't overly affectionate, so I don't find myself like, I don't like need sex, I actually just like crave more conversation.

• 39:27Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 39:28Alex Cooper?

  Whereas I have other friends that are like, oh, I, like, the only way I know that we're like in a good place is if like we've gone too long without sex. I'm like, what's wrong with us? Like, are we disconnected?

• 39:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:37Alex Cooper?

  And I, though I'm curious, if you have a couple where one is on one side of the spectrum and one is on the other, that then, that's tough, right?

• 39:47Speaker 04

  Tough, definitely. It's tough. Um, if, if people come into the relationship on, with very different, let's say, love languages or inclinations, that is tough. What's interesting is that, um, couples might start off not that different from each other. I mean, one might be more physically affectionate or have like a stronger libido or like find sex is like where they express themselves and the other maybe a little less. Sometimes what happens, and that is a problem, is that people work out other tensions or difficulties through, in that arena, and then they polarize.

• 40:33Speaker 04

  So someone could, I mean, the bedroom is often where people sadly work out other agendas. So someone could be like mad at their partner for, I don't know, like not picking up the slack or taking care of the kid or whatever, and withhold sex. It's easy for them to withhold sex because that's not exactly their mode of operating. But for the other party, it might feel like the worst kind of punishment and like the most threatening thing to do. And then, and then you get into the dynamic of polarization. So they may not have started so different, but it's, they're working out some other issue through, in that domain, and that is a problem.

• 41:16Alex Cooper?

  Well, that's also a problem because the person that is not, let's say, as this is just, I'm just throwing this out there, sexual, that's not the actual right term, but if the person that's not as sexual in the relationship has the power, right? Because they're holding the keys to the sexual relationship.

• 41:32Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:32Alex Cooper?

  And the person that wants it is then at times probably feeling like, I'm such the pursuer constantly.

• 41:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:39Alex Cooper?

  I feel like I'm being rejected. I feel like I'm not getting the love I want.

• 41:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:44Alex Cooper?

  Where the other person is like, all you care about is sex.

• 41:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:47Alex Cooper?

  Cause you just keep coming to me for it. But then they're like, well, because you never come to me for it. And they're like, because you're always wanting it. And it's like, how the hell do you like, how do you approach a conversation, I guess, when you're in these dynamics with these couples to like bring them back to center?

• 42:06Speaker 04

  There's no one size fits all. I mean, it really with each couple, it's a different thing.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  But what I find happens a lot in couples therapy is that you have to try to separate if people are trying to negotiate other issues in a way to pull it out of the bedroom.

• 42:26Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 42:27Speaker 04

  If you've got issues that you're working on, if you're resentful about other things, just try not for the bedroom to be the arena where you're like working it out. Unless it really is about the bedroom.

• 42:37Alex Cooper?

  Right. If you both have just complete different sex drives, like how do you approach a conversation with your partner if you are dissatisfied in the bedroom? Like, how do we, because that's a tough conversation and can be awkward.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  Tough conversation, and I would actually probably start off by assuming, I mean, unless it's a very verbal couple, I would actually not start with language.

• 43:01Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  Um, a lot of sexual needs and differences, it's great to resolve. I mean, if you're gonna try to work on it, to do it in real time through the body, like signal through the body through nonverbal ways, what you want, what you need. Experiment with things. And I guess it depends on the couple, like what works for them, working it out in real time or working it out, like when you're not in the middle of a sexual encounter, when vulnerabilities are high, passion is high. It's a tricky thing to use language in those moments.

• 43:38Alex Cooper?

  It's so tricky because, I mean, unless you're in deep, deep therapy, like you've got to be very careful because you can completely shut down. And like, I, I agree to not like gender it, but like, it, it, let's say it is the woman coming to the man, like it can just make them feel so shut down where they're like, how long have you been thinking about this? You're dissatisfied, they're feeling emasculated, or roles reversed, the man comes to you and you're feeling like, oh my God, have you not been enjoying the sex every time we're having sex? Who are you thinking of? Like, sex is a very, very vulnerable thing in a relationship. And I think you're, I never thought about it that way. You're right. It's like, if you can address it first with your body, like, let's say the person is dissatisfied because every, I'm making this up, like, every time you're having sex with

• 44:22Alex Cooper?

  your partner, you're feeling like it's, you're disconnected, like you're having physical sex, but it just feels physical and there's no connection. Okay, well, instead of saying that, like, you're right, Orna, like, maybe you're, when is the last time in the morning are you hugging and kissing before you each leave for work? Or no, you're just kind of ships in the night and you see each other. And then of course, when you're having sex, of course, it doesn't feel intimate and special. Are you hugging? Are you touching? Do you hold hands? Like, you want more connection of intimacy when you're having sex? Put intimacy throughout the rest of your relationship first before, like, you're right, like, lead with that. And then all of a sudden.

• 45:00Speaker 04

  Or even do it while you're intimate, while you're having sex. I mean, there are ways that people can increase that kind of intimacy while they're having sex, not through words.

• 45:09Alex Cooper?

  Right, looking at each other, kissing while you're having sex. Like, maybe you guys have ever kissed while you're having sex. That could feel a little like isolating where you're like, this could be anyone. So, I love that advice because I do feel a lot of people write into me, just like, I literally don't know how to tell my partner, like, I'm not happy. I think that's like a very non daunting way to go about it. It's like first, just slowly trying to make those steps yourself within the relationship and you don't have to have this big like blow up conversation.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, why blow up at all? I mean, when we're talking about sex, I mean, there's the other thing, which is like, frame things as requests as opposed to as complaints. I mean, that's always a good piece of advice, which is like, translate what's bothering you into a request, into an ask, rather than a complaint. I mean, the outcome could be very different.

• 46:03Alex Cooper?

  Can you give us an example of like, how it would be bad to say it versus a good way to say it?

• 46:07Speaker 04

  Like, you never kiss me versus, let's kiss.

• 46:15Alex Cooper?

  It sounds so simple, but it's so not that simple when you're in the moment and he's like doing the dishes and you're like, okay, here I go, here I go. Why don't you kiss me? Ever? When we have sex, you never kiss me. I don't know the last time that you've made out with me, we're having sex and he's literally like mid dishwasher.

• 46:33Speaker 04

  What happened?

• 46:34Alex Cooper?

  What, what just happened? And meanwhile, it's like, you also, I think something I learned in therapy a lot, and we did it in couples therapy, was like, something that you have been holding on to, that's why it's so good to not hold on to things for too long in a relationship, because then you've had 19 conversations with yourself. And they have no idea you've been thinking this. So then when it comes out, it can literally feel like a war and the person is like, oh my God, what is happening? I thought our sex life was great recently. Yeah. So you're right. It's like, hey, you know what? I would love to make out when we're having sex. I was thinking about that. Like, I love making out with you, why don't we do it when we have sex? Like, making.

• 47:12Speaker 04

  I wouldn't even say, why don't?

• 47:14Alex Cooper?

  Oh, don't say why don't, nope.

• 47:15Speaker 04

  Let's.

• 47:16Alex Cooper?

  Let's. Shall we?

• 47:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, shall we?

• 47:19Alex Cooper?

  To the bedroom.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  As opposed to why don't we?

• 47:22Alex Cooper?

  But it's, I love these conversations with you, Orna, because when we are going on our day to day lives, like, it is hard to remember all of these things. And sometimes it's good to just have these slow down conversations of like, all of us are the way we are because of everything that's come before us within our lives. And when you're standing across from your partner, it is not just the day we met on our first date and forward. It's like, no, no, no, life existed before this person and what happened to you. I'm curious, like, when we talk about past trauma, because I think this is something that's like a misconception, I think a lot of, most people assume, we're talking about extreme situations, which we can, of course, we could do a whole episode on extreme situations

• 48:07Alex Cooper?

  like abuse, but can you talk about other types of childhood dynamics that can impact us in adulthood?

• 48:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, um, of course. I mean, first of all, there's, you know what, I mean, I think it's quite popular now to talk about like attachment styles. But the very first patterns of relatedness that we establish with the people that take care of us, often parents, not always, they will influence the rest of our lives. They will set the kind of expectations we have. For example, a simple and very important thing, like, if you need something and you make an ask to the world, will the world respond? Or not?

• 48:59Alex Cooper?

  Like you're saying, if you asked your parents when you were younger for help on something and.

• 49:04Speaker 04

  Before even ask for help, like your diaper was wet and you started crying, how long did it take for your parent to get there and change your diaper? If you were colicky and you had like incredible stomach aches, was it even possible to help you with it? Sometimes it's really difficult to help colicky babies and they start off the world with some idea that when I'm in distress, the world can't always help me.

• 49:32Alex Cooper?

  Oh my God.

• 49:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's like, it's really like basic stuff of like what, what to expect from like the world, like, do I have that like incredible trust that when I'm in distress, help will come? Those are really early things that get established and they're not always because of neglect or abuse. Sometimes it's just like, again, I mean, you can be a colicky baby or you could have all sorts of ways that your system is dysregulated and it's very hard to take care of you as a baby. And then you start off with a pattern of, I don't know what to call it, mistrust or some way that the call and response is.

• 50:13Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 04

  Not established well.

• 50:15Alex Cooper?

  But I think it's important to just like highlight that for a minute because I can imagine a lot of people listening are like, oh, I don't have trauma compared to my friend. Like, my friend went this through this or was abused when she was younger or did it. And like, I don't have trauma. It's like, everyone has something that, we all are the way we are because of our upbringing. And I think that when we, instead of being like, well, my stuff is not as bad, take care of yourself and also recognize like, hey, if you find yourself in a pattern in romantic relationships, we're like, why do I keep doing this? Oh, and it does kind of show up at work too, like, I'm always pulling away when someone's being nice to me. I can't take a compliment or I can't, like, as simple as that. Where does that come from? And I think when we start to ask ourselves the questions, yes, it leads us down this

• 50:59Alex Cooper?

  like little dark path, but it's exciting to know that there is an answer.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:05Alex Cooper?

  And you can resolve it.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  And the answer could be like really interesting, actually, to go down that path and try to figure out. It's actually, it's really interesting.

• 51:14Alex Cooper?

  It is, it's fascinating. That, I mean, that's why I told you, when I binge this show, that's my answer. When I binge couples therapy, it's because why I love it and I can sit and I can handle it is like, one, because that's just how my mother raised me, like, let's talk for 19 hours and then some. But it really comes down to like, I'm fascinated by the human experience of like, we all grow up and like, what triggers did we experience to make us afraid of intimacy or overly intimate and overly trusting or reserved or outwardly like very dramatic in moments and people see it as dramatic, but really what is it? Is it a cry for attention? Because you like.

• 51:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:55Alex Cooper?

  It's interesting.

• 51:56Speaker 04

  It's endless.

• 51:57Alex Cooper?

  Like, I love it.

• 52:14Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. So the other day I was just scrolling on my phone and one of those one year ago today notifications popped up. I usually don't pay much attention to them, but when I saw it was from my Napa trip with Lauren. I obviously had to go back through every single photo. I remember we drove up to Napa for a weekend and found the cutest farmhouse on Airbnb to stay in. The location could not have been more perfect. It was right by a vineyard and overlooked this beautiful golf course, which yes, Matt was very jealous of. During the day, we went wine tasting like a little cute couple.

• 52:59Alex Cooper?

  Then we brought our favorite bottles back to the house at night for cozy, long girl talks on the couch. Obviously, I haven't had a drink in forever since being pregnant, so I cannot wait for wine nights again soon with my girlfriends. And now that holiday travel season is finally here, all of my group chats are going off with everyone trying to coordinate dates and just figure out where we're going to stay and where we're going to go next. But looking back through those photos reminded me that some of the best parts of a trip happen back at the house, right? Like, that's why I love booking a home on Airbnb. It literally gives everyone space to just spread out and it makes every trip feel more relaxed.

• 53:44Alex Cooper?

  You can even order groceries, which I love, for your trip through Airbnb and have everything from breakfast essentials to holiday snacks delivered after you arrive. If you're planning your Thanksgiving trip or any holiday travel this season, definitely check out Airbnb before you book. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Stouffer's. Let me tell you something, when I am hungry and I am trying to figure out what to eat, sometimes you can just actually become so, you're angry. You're like, I am busy, I'm hungry, I'm getting hangry, I'm getting angry, what can I eat? I need something hot and delicious and low maintenance. Well, introducing Stouffer's dinners are not only delicious, they're done in a flash.

• 54:27Alex Cooper?

  Serve up their classic lasagna, chicken pesto, or carbonara for two. Whatever you're craving, Stouffer's is your hot, delicious, easy meal fantasy. When the clock strikes dinner, think Stouffer's. You can see all the delicious options at Stouffer's.com. Question I think is very interesting is, I actually had this from a fan, which is, where should someone draw the line between being supportive of their partner versus taking on way too much of their partner's trauma as their own?

• 54:57Speaker 04

  I think that the question itself is an important one. There's a difference between, there's a difference between caring for another person and taking care of them and getting kind of enmeshed symbiotic, lost in someone else, which is not actually an act of care.

• 55:22Speaker 04

  It's something else.

• 55:25Speaker 04

  It's, I guess, what in lay language is called kind of codependency. You know, it makes me think a little bit about raising children. Doing everything for them is not always the best thing. Figure out like, what do they need for their own independence and development? When are you overdoing for your child because of your own issues? Like, in a way, using your child to work through something versus seeing them for who they are? And when do they need a bit of support? And when do you need to step back and let them do their own thing? I mean, that's kind of a very good learning ground for this difference between like overdoing

• 56:08Speaker 04

  it and doing it right out of care. I think there are many reasons why people get codependent that are not about care for the other person.

• 56:20Alex Cooper?

  Share with me.

• 56:21Speaker 04

  I mean, you can come, like, a million reasons why, like getting lost in someone else because you don't want to face something in yourself, you're escaping like your own stuff, insecurities, all sorts of avoidance tactics. I think maybe what I'm trying to say is that it's important to try to ask yourself, am I getting super involved because I care for the well-being of this person? Or am I answering some need of mine here? Hard, hard to decipher.

• 56:53Alex Cooper?

  That's what I was going to say, because like, is it, is it fucked up to say, like, someone that has like, secure attachment would probably never get themselves completely down a rabbit hole in that situation? Because they would be like, hold on, love you so much, but like, you need help and I can't get this. You where maybe it immediately turns on a light for someone of like, I'm needed, I'm wanted, they need me. And then it becomes codependent because again, back to the beginning of this episode, it's just feeling actually something within them to take care of that person. And of course, they think they love them and they're trying, but it also is like completely filling their cup by being like, they need me and I'm here and I'm the caretaker and

• 57:35Alex Cooper?

  I didn't have that when I was younger, so now I'm going to take on that role, like whatever it is.

• 57:39Speaker 04

  That's a really great way of describing it, yes.

• 57:42Alex Cooper?

  But do you think it's almost like, in a way, also to help someone with that question is like, is this too dramatic to be like, it's almost like when, if you're dating someone that has a substance abuse problem, you literally are, cannot help that person to a certain extent. Of course, you can drive them to rehab, but they have to walk in the doors, they have to participate in the healing and you're not a professional to help the healing. So when someone has this trauma, you can be there and cry with them and hold them, but it only goes to a certain extent where you're then both being brought down. And if anything, you could be prohibiting them from actually seeking real help because there's this like codependency of like, we're going to do this together.

• 58:25Speaker 04

  Right.

• 58:26Alex Cooper?

  You can't, you can't do that together.

• 58:28Speaker 04

  I agree.

• 58:28Alex Cooper?

  They need, they need a you.

• 58:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, yeah, or a me or an AA situation, or yeah.

• 58:37Alex Cooper?

  More questions from our fans. What are some signs the relationship is moving too fast?

• 58:45Speaker 04

  You know, a relationship has ideally, I'm saying this and I'm immediately contradicting myself in my mind, but okay, let me say the first thing. A relationship has typically like a developmental arc. It takes a lot of time to get to know another person. I always feel like with my patients, it takes me two years to feel like I know this person.

• 59:07Alex Cooper?

  Really?

• 59:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:09Alex Cooper?

  My God, I wonder how my therapist feels about me.

• 59:11Speaker 04

  How long have you been seeing them?

• 59:13Alex Cooper?

  Over two years, for sure.

• 59:14Speaker 04

  I feel like there's a moment in which suddenly it's like, oh, all the pieces are coming together, now I get this person. It takes a long time to get to know a person.

• 59:29Speaker 04

  And I think the idea of like moving too fast is when you assume you know more than you do.

• 59:38Speaker 04

  When you think you got it, you understood everything about them, you get it, they understood you and in a way, you're blocking all the areas that create the discomfort of realizing, I don't know that person, that person doesn't know me, which is scary. It's uncomfortable, it's scary. I think people sometimes have an inclination to want to avoid that and rush so that they don't sit through the discomfort of like otherness and unfamiliarity and awkwardness, which is part of getting to know a person. There's going to be a lot of awkwardness.

• 1:00:19Alex Cooper?

  So much awkwardness.

• 1:00:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Alex Cooper?

  And I like that you're saying that because I have had women write in being like, Alex, I'm officially 30. I'm like, you're so young, enjoy it. And it's like, no, no, no, I've got to find a husband. And I'm always so worried because it's like, listen, I think there's moments also where we completely project our wants onto someone and they could be literally sitting at a dinner with you being like, yeah, so I have this trauma and you're like, oh my God, you know where we should go this weekend? We should go to Cancun. And they're literally like, you're just putting on them what exactly you want. I want a husband, you look great, you played the part. And it's like, we sometimes just approach a relationship based off of what we want from it and need from it.

• 1:01:04Alex Cooper?

  And we completely neglect the fact that the person across from us is like, I-

• 1:01:08Speaker 04

  A stranger.

• 1:01:09Alex Cooper?

  Yes, a complete stranger.

• 1:01:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Alex Cooper?

  And it's like this honeymoon phase. I think the honeymoon phase can be so tumultuous in the long run if you elongate it for too long. And the honeymoon phase is on you to decide when it, the bubble pops and you're like, so.

• 1:01:28Speaker 04

  Actually, who are you?

• 1:01:29Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, literally. Like, tell me about your childhood. Like, what, what are you insecure about? Like, what is something that has been like one of the biggest hardships in your life? Like, it's-

• 1:01:41Alex Cooper?

  Daunting, but again, like you can hear an answer from someone and be like, oh, I don't want to be with you because of the way you're telling me you handled that with this. Oh my, I couldn't relate to that at all. But sometimes people go, sometimes people, I mean, you've probably seen it. How long have you seen people go in a relationship where you can sit down with them and they're married for like 30 years and you're like, do you guys know each other?

• 1:02:03Speaker 04

  I know. I know.

• 1:02:05Alex Cooper?

  Like, how does that happen?

• 1:02:06Speaker 04

  It's actually shocking to me. It's shocking to me.

• 1:02:09Alex Cooper?

  Like, that's possible, right?

• 1:02:11Speaker 04

  It is possible. I mean, it's like people who, like their spouse says, I want to get divorced. And I'll ask them, like, somebody can show up for therapy and say, my, my spouse wants to divorce me. And I'm like, what, what have they been, what have they been saying to you over the years that will help us understand? And they're like, I don't know.

• 1:02:33Alex Cooper?

  What is that?

• 1:02:34Speaker 04

  That is, um, self-absorption.

• 1:02:38Alex Cooper?

  How long does it usually take in therapy to come out?

• 1:02:41Speaker 04

  A while.

• 1:02:42Alex Cooper?

  Really?

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  A while.

• 1:02:43Alex Cooper?

  I, and I think as we're wrapping up, oh my God, I sound like a therapist. As we're wrapping up, you're like sobbing. I have done that with my therapist sometimes. And we're wrapping up, Alex. I'm like, wait, my life's in shambles. I appreciate you walking us through that, though, at the end there, because I feel like the whole thesis of this episode is like, truly trying to dive underneath all these decisions that we are taking on our day to day, just at face value. Oh, he treated me like shit. Oh, she did this. Oh, shit. Why?

• 1:03:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Alex Cooper?

  There's always an answer. Sometimes we don't want to know it, but it can give you a lot of peace when you do get underneath it and you know it. Thank you so much. This relationship that we have makes me so happy.

• 1:03:23Speaker 04

  Me too.

• 1:03:24Alex Cooper?

  Oh, it does?

• 1:03:25Speaker 04

  Me too.

• 1:03:25Alex Cooper?

  Okay, I don't annoy you. I'm like emailing you like, hi, Orna.

• 1:03:28Speaker 04

  No, I have like a deep, great fondness for you. Yeah.

• 1:03:31Alex Cooper?

  Don't make me cry.

• 1:03:32Speaker 04

  No, it's.

• 1:03:33Alex Cooper?

  No, I really appreciate you and everything you do. And I think this show is truly revolutionary. We don't get to see therapy working from a start to finish moment. And obviously, I know it's not finished, but we don't get to see the like, breaking down of humans and like, watching these inner dynamics come from beginning to wherever they're left, whether it's breaking up or staying together. And so I think what you guys are doing is amazing and I'm addicted. So I'll be watching.

• 1:04:00Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:04:16Alex Cooper?

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