Will MetaMask Drop a Token? Breaking Down the Biggest Wallet Merge Ever

MetaMask and MyCrypto are teaming up to build the ultimate crypto wallet. Revamping efforts on security, user experience, as well as features & integrations, this is a massive moment in the world of non-custodial crypto wallets. As the passport to Web3, improving and innovating the crypto wallet is increasingly vital as the entire industry continues to scale outwards. Building a secure and intuitive flow for asset management is do-or-die for the crypto space. With Dan Finlay from Consensys and Taylor Monahan from MyCrypto, we're exploring the implications of this monumental merger and what it means for the broader crypto user experience. ------ 📣 ZERION | Trade Across 7 Networks and 500+ protocols https://bankless.cc/Zerion ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum 🍵 MATCHA | SMART ORDER ROUTING https://bankless.cc/Matcha 🚀 SLINGSHOT | LAYER 2 SOCIAL TRADING https://bankless.cc/Slingshot 🏦 GEMINI | TURN FIAT INTO CRYPTO https://bankless.cc/Gemini 🦁 BRAVE | THE BROWSER NATIVE WALLET https://bankless.cc/Brave 🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING https://bankless.cc/UniGrants ------ Topics Covered: 0:00 Intro 6:00 The MetaMask MyCrypto Merger 13:57 Power & Responsibility 17:58 What Happens Next? 24:08 By the Numbers 25:57 What is a Crypto Wallet? 32:33 The Passport to the Metaverse 35:44 More Merger Details 43:30 What's After Swaps? 47:58 Aggregators and Bridges 52:44 The Layer 2 Metamask 57:03 Polynya's Social Recovery Question 1:02:58 Vitalik's Light Client Question 1:06:00 Wen $MASK Token? 1:11:14 Closing & Disclaimers ------ Resources: Dan on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danfinlay?s=20 Taylor on Twitter: https://twitter.com/tayvano_?s=20 The Announcement: https://medium.com/metamask/welcoming-mycrypto-to-metamask-8ee46e2ae740 ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hey, Bankless Nation. Welcome to another State of the Nation episode where we talk about something big that is happening in crypto. This week, the news is big. This is the biggest wallet merge ever, I think. I'm calling it that. As far as we're aware, this is the biggest one ever. This is between MetaMask and MyCrypto. David, what are we talking about today?

• 0:29David Hoffman?

  Yeah, everyone uses MetaMask. How can you not know what MetaMask is? So anytime something happens to MetaMask, it's a really, really big deal. And the veterans of the crypto industry might also remember when they were loading up their wallets into MyCrypto to participate in ICO drops or any other crazy shenanigans that we did during that era. And so we have two veterans of wallet designers. We have Dan Finlay and Taylor Monahan coming to tell us all about what is the perhaps the biggest merger in wallet history. And so that is a story in of itself. And everyone kind of wants to take a peek behind the scenes of MetaMask and what they are up to, which is exactly what we are going to be doing today on today's State of the Nation.

• 1:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's gonna be awesome. These two wallets and user interfaces got me into the Ethereum space, what got me into crypto. So I'm really excited for this merger, the coming together. I don't know if it's gonna be called CryptoMask, MetaCrypto, or MyCryptoMask. We'll have to ask our guests in a minute. And if you have a question, also, let us know what you want us to ask in the YouTube comments. David and I monitor those and we ask questions. Guys, a few housekeeping items before we begin. The first is, we gotta let you know about the Permissionless Conference. That is a conference that I am attending, David is attending. We think this is gonna be the biggest DeFi conference of the year, probably ever. Super excited about the agenda we have planned. Get your tickets, is all I can say. Anything you want to add to that, David?

• 1:58David Hoffman?

  I'm absolutely stoked for this conference. The content calendar is coming together very, very nicely. Bankless and beers will be a thing. And so perhaps Ryan and I have this chariots of fire running across the moment stage at this brewery. I don't know.

• 2:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're gonna meet for the first time.

• 2:12David Hoffman?

  We're gonna meet for the first time. Maybe you guys want to attend for that. There might be a PoAP. But yeah, you gotta come. You gotta come. Gotta come to the event.

• 2:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, go check that out, guys. We'll include a link in the show notes. Also, our friends at Xerion, while we're on the topic of wallets and MetaMask and getting into DeFi, the gateway to DeFi, want to talk a little bit about Xerion. They are friends and sponsors, and you might use them on the daily. If you don't, you should. I use them on a daily basis. If you connect your wallet to it, you'll notice some incredible new feature ads. What is this? This is not my wallet, by the way. But you could click here on all networks. You could see all of the different networks your assets reside on. So this is Ethereum, this is Optimism, so Layer 2s. We've got Avalanche, other EVM chains. They're adding more all of the time. Also, this nifty little feature, bridging.

• 3:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  We are in the midst of the great migration from Ethereum mainnet to Layer 2s, okay? And if you want to bridge your tokens, Xerion has a feature for that, where you can just bridge from Ethereum to Polygon, or look, Binance, better yet, Optimism, Arbitrum, some other chains as well. You can make that happen at Xerion. We'll include a link in the show notes, so you can go check that out. Connect your wallet today. Completely bankless, by the way. No bank has control of your assets when you're using Xerion. It's just you, your private keys, and the Xerion user interface.

• 3:36David Hoffman?

  The way we like it.

• 3:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's the way we like it, right, David?

• 3:39David Hoffman?

  Absolutely. Wouldn't have it any other way.

• 3:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wouldn't have it any other way. Alright, guys, we're gonna be back in just a few minutes. Oh, no, no, dude, I gotta ask you the question. I almost forgot.

• 3:50David Hoffman?

  Yeah, this is a good one.

• 3:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  What's the state of the nation today, David? I want to hear what you say.

• 3:54David Hoffman?

  The state of the nation is alliterating. MetaMask, MyCrypto merger. So, Ryan, today on the State of the Nation, we are alliterating. We don't really have to unpack that one too much.

• 4:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  There might be some depth there that David uncovers in like a 10,000-word piece that he publishes on Bankless later on, or maybe there's no depth. Maybe it's just alliteration. That's what we're doing this week, right?

• 4:15David Hoffman?

  We're alliterating.

• 4:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Stay tuned to find out. Guys, we will be back in just a moment with Taylor and Dan talking about this epic merger. But before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible.

• 4:26David Hoffman?

  Slingshot is a decentralized trading platform that combines the performance and ease of a centralized exchange with the openness and transparency of DeFi. Slingshot aggregates liquidity from all of DeFi in order to find the best price on thousands of crypto assets. Every token on Slingshot comes with a price chart and trade logs to give you insights into the market's activity in real time. Slingshot is available on Polygon, Arbitrum, and Optimism, saving you from the high gas fees and low transaction fees of the Ethereum L1. There are no fees to trade on Slingshot, and any positive slippage is given to the users. Trading on Slingshot is a social experience. You can even set your chat avatar to your favorite NFT, or soon, a Slingshot 2099 NFT avatar. Once you bridge your assets to Polygon, Arbitrum, or Optimism, go to app.slingshot.finance to trade,

• 5:09David Hoffman?

  and use the chat box to share your trades with others, and find other tokens to ape into. The Brave browser is the user-first browser for the Web3 internet, with built-in privacy and ad blocking to keep you in charge of your digital footprint. Inside the Brave browser, you'll find the Brave Wallet, the first secure crypto wallet built natively inside of a Web3 crypto browser. Web3 is freedom from big tech and Wall Street. More control and better privacy. But there's a weak point in Web3: your crypto wallet. The Brave Wallet is different. Brave Wallet is built natively inside the Brave browser, no extension required, which gives the Brave Wallet an extra level of security versus other wallets. With the Brave Wallet, you can buy, store, send, and swap your crypto assets, and you can even manage your NFTs and connect to other wallets and DeFi apps, all from the security of the best privacy browser on the market.

• 5:53David Hoffman?

  Whether you're new to crypto or a seasoned pro, it's time to switch to the Brave Wallet. Download Brave at brave.com/banklist and click the Wallet icon to get started. Arbitrum is an Ethereum scaling solution that's going to completely change how we use DeFi and NFTs. Over 250 projects have already deployed on Arbitrum, and Arbitrum's DeFi and NFT ecosystems are growing rapidly. Arbitrum increases Ethereum's speed by orders of magnitude for a fraction of the cost of the average gas fee. When interacting with Arbitrum, you can get the performance of a centralized exchange while tapping into Ethereum's level of decentralization and security. If you're a developer who wants low gas fees and instant transactions for your users, visit developer offchainlabs.com to get started building your application on Arbitrum. If you're a user, keep an eye out for your favorite DeFi apps or NFT projects building on Arbitrum.

• 6:38David Hoffman?

  Many of your favorite apps are already live, with many more coming over soon. You can find these apps at portal.arbitrum.1, and you can bridge your assets over to Arbitrum using bridge.arbitrum.io in order to experience DeFi and NFTs the way it was always meant to be: fast, cheap, and friction-free. All right, Bankless Nation, we are back to discuss the MetaMask MyCrypto merger, the triple M. Here we got Dan Finlay, who has been building MetaMask at Consensys for like six years now, and also taught me everything I needed to know about Merkel trees in his DevCon Zero talk, which I think happened in Seattle, which burned into his brain. That's not all that Merkel trees can do. And we also have Taylor Monahan, who is the founder and CEO

• 7:23David Hoffman?

  of MyCrypto, which started being everyone's first wallet during the ICO era of Ethereum, an extremely challenging time to be a wallet operator. And Taylor has taken these veteran lessons all the way through and through Ethereum's history to where we are now today, which is a merger between MetaMask and MyCrypto. So Dan, Taylor, welcome to Bankless and congratulations on the guys, on the merge, guys.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks so much. It's been a long time coming.

• 7:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, it has been a really, really long time coming, and I'm excited to finally get to talk about this and see what's, see what's up next for us.

• 7:58David Hoffman?

  Wait, that's a malphas. So how long have you guys been talking? Like, how long? You said this is a long time coming. Is this always part of the plan? Or is this?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  I meant it in two senses. I meant, I meant both like, we've been like, kind of building wallets alongside each other for so long that it almost, it almost just feels like it's kind of built up to this. And then also, yeah, we've been like, you know, like tossing around the idea of what this could possibly turn into for, yeah, I don't know, like, what, like six months or something? Like, it's like, you know, figuring out if we could conceive of it working was like, I think, the most important part.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, we didn't talk to anyone else about it until we were like somewhat confident in the success of it. And particularly for like the teams, as I'm sure most people are aware, like, the hardest thing about doing a merge is the people and bringing them together. And so that was sort of our focus. And I do remember, for timeline sake, at one point, I was like, okay, once we get through EIP 1559, then we can really talk about this. So that's how long it's been.

• 9:09David Hoffman?

  You know, one other thing that both of your, your solutions, both your projects have in common is you like the customer support. The front end helped us customer support for crypto.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Which I'm sorry for.

• 9:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes, and Taylor, I know my crypto then called my Ether Wallet was so key during like 2017 ICO. I mean, it's what everyone used, what I used. And I remember reading, like, basically, you're doing help desk stuff on Reddit forums for people. Like, it was an incredible time. And then MetaMask, Dan, you know, no different. If there's an issue with my transaction didn't go through, block spaces, you know, gas fees are too expensive.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Where'd my money go?

• 9:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Anything in the front end. Yeah, it looks like Dan is shuddering, like, just thinking about this.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have some very shared trauma.

• 10:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so you've got some shared trauma. Is that a unifying thing, being the help desk, the front customer support of Ethereum, of crypto?

• 10:09Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I would put it like, like, when you go through something like that together, it's like you're bonded for life. And the people that were sort of on the front lines in 2017, like, those are still some of my best friends to this day. Like, the people like that we, you know, the fishers and the scammers came out of nowhere.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  That group of people that all, like, stood together trying to solve this problem and fix stuff, we're still all very close. And like, in particular, me and Dan, just because we're also trying to run a wallet thing and build the future of everything and keep people safe. You know, you just, you have that, that shared experience and that, I don't know, loneliness. Like, no one understands me, but we understand each other. It's fantastic.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  I feel like it transforms you when you go through it, because like, it teaches you so much about what this ecosystem is and what it's made of. And like, when you're helping these people, like, there's like so many different people with so many different, you know, you thought you just taught some people at some hackathon, and then suddenly, you know, it's a grandma in Kansas. Or, you know, it's like, you know, like an artist in Lagos, or, you know, and you're just like, you're just like, oh, okay, how did you get into that? You know, or like, what's your problem? Or like, what's your, you know, where are you at in this journey? And like, understanding all the different ways people can, can. Kind of like mess up and lose their money or something. I think it like builds up like this like reverence.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Like, like it was, it was all fun building in like 2016, 2016. It was like, yeah, add some, add some APIs, add some features we have like.

• 11:51Speaker 03

  Changes in the world, baby.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was, it was fun. And, and what's funny is like, you know, there's like some APIs that we made that are like, they were like kind of half baked. Those are, those are 2016 APIs. Like, you know, it was easy going times, you know, the, the bar was a little bit lower. But, but man, yeah, like, once, once it gets real, once, once you like have, you know, a certain, there's, there's like a level where people like, you, you, you realize like, for some people, this is their whole life, you know, and, uh, you know, like, I mean, and I, I don't, I'm not advising people, put their whole life savings into crypto if they don't understand it. But some people are doing that, you know? And you gotta, if you're a wallet, you should be building as if people are doing that. And, uh,

• 12:32Speaker 02

  and there's just this reverence for it, uh, for the process and for, for like, you know, the, the experience and like what it means to have this like digital asset manager that, uh, that I think, I think that we have a shared kind of reverence for, a, a certain respect for like, where the bar is at to keep users safe. And, uh, yeah, so, so it's, it's kind of easy. I find, I find that we like, agree about a lot of product principal decisions. Like when we're talking about pretty much any, you know, little feature like someone's like, you know, oh, you know, you should, it'd be really nice if you were, you know, uh, whatever. And then like we, we tend to consistently, you know, like, uh, I don't know, like auto detecting NFTs is like one of those things where it's like,

• 13:13Speaker 02

  it's really easy to want that as a user. Um, the failure modes though are not obvious to everyone. But for somebody who's like seen thousands and thousands of people get fished in a million different ways, you know, like, uh, yeah, like we, I, I think we just have like an eye for the ways that it's just like, oh, oh, just constantly seeing things go wrong. And, and it's, it's a rare kind of insight and I, I so, so respect how much of a tailor's got. And she, she shares it liberally too. Like, like I'm, I'm definitely quieter on Twitter, but you know, she makes it very obvious, uh, and, and tries to help other people see it that, you know.

• 13:52Speaker 03

  I try. Yeah, I try. I yell at people and hope that they're listening to me.

• 13:57David Hoffman?

  So I actually want to dive into that because you guys, Dan, you talked about the alignment between the building, the ethos of both of your guys' wallets. And so I want to understand what that, what that is. What is the thing that both MetaMask and MyCrypto are super aligned on? And how is that going to guide the product moving forward?

• 14:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that for the, I think both me and Dan have undergone a, I don't know, a transformation and evolution from like the very early days to where we are today. And I think a lot of other people will get there eventually. But it's a, the wallet is like probably the most key piece of, of infrastructure, of product in the entire space. For me, like I was like, yeah, just build a paper wallet generator. Yay. Okay, it's just this thing that allows you to sign things, like whatever. That was sort of my first, like the first couple of years of building.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  That's what it was like. And then in 2017, it turned into like, oh, okay, like the wallet has the ability to protect, but everyone else is sort of like driving people into the ecosystem, right? Like everyone else is promoting their ICOs, bringing people in, and the wallet is like the sort of the last stop where, you know, we have this opportunity to save users. And today I realize it's, it's like the wallet is not only the last stop or like the last trusted space or the one place where we could save a user from like interacting with a scam or, or doing something else. But it also sort of has this responsibility of giving people the power to interact with these things.

• 15:40Speaker 03

  And because of that, the wallet also has like the ability to abuse that power, right? And that's why I think it's really, really important that the people who are building wallets and the teams and, and people who are using wallets all sort of understand just how integral it is that, you know, things are built in the correct way, that the focus remains on empowering the user and giving them choice, that it does not. Uh, you know, we don't go into like censoring transactions or babysitting like we actually we we really need to educate and empower people. Um, if if there's any chance that we're gonna build like a a different world, let alone a better world. Um, and Dan understands this, like he's had some blogs out recently where

• 16:24Speaker 03

  uh, like his response to the the the Moxie article was when I was like, he gets it. That's what's in my head that I haven't had a chance to like get out into words yet. Um, and yeah, I think that the next couple of years I think are gonna be increasingly important as well because um, again, you know, whenever the the market cycle cycle, it's uh, there's like this flood of users who don't really understand what's happening. They're really, really excited for the potential and it's during that uh, the sort of the down periods where um, people actually understand like the values and understand why this is important. Um, and I think that, yeah, next couple of years are gonna be fun ones.

• 17:04David Hoffman?

  The, this is exactly what you said. This entire industry is completely pinned on top of private keys. Private keys are just the the thing that unlocks everything. First, it unlocks people like being able to hold crypto. But it really does so much more than that, right? And I think people are starting to get an idea of what that means with NFTs, right? Where, you know, these NFTs are starting to become tools of identity. Uh, but also the trustless verification of signing private keys can unlock so many new superpowers. Which means that all of the superpowers that people are able to access because of private keys all resides inside of the wallet that they choose to use. Which gives wallet designers an immense amount of responsibility for how they choose to design their systems. And so

• 17:47David Hoffman?

  while I think maybe people coming in from to this industry who are brand new are like, oh yeah, this could be the best wallet ever. They don't understand the magnitude of the question that they just asked or the request that they're that they're making. So, um, question, a question to you guys is now that you guys have merged, what is in store? Like what comes next? What happens to my crypto? What happens to MetaMask wallet? And is this changing the trajectory of of MetaMask in any particular way?

• 18:15Speaker 02

  You want to do it, Taylor?

• 18:18Speaker 02

  I think it's gonna, I mean, we're in the process of merging. So we're like, our teams are like getting acquainted, getting to know each other, finding their place. You know, we're not sunsetting the MyCrypto products because they're like total bastions of stability for a lot of people who need like, you know, that derivation path that nobody else uses with that, you know, wallet that doesn't support it otherwise, or you know, or just like a million of the other features it provides. But yeah, there's a lot of things that become possible. I mean, kind of to tie in the last topic, it's like being that last bastion of trust for a person when they're interacting with stuff. Like, I sometimes think of us as like, we're like your digital lawyer, like, oh, this is what,

• 19:03Speaker 02

  this is what that'll mean, you know? And the thing is that the amount of knowledge your ideal lawyer would have is like boundless, you know? So being able to have this expertise, like, you know, we've now got twice as many experts on 1559, you know, we've got twice as many experts on hardware wallets now.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  You know, and, and now we've got experts on maintaining a desktop app. So that's, you know, a little bit of a trajectory shifter, for sure. So, yeah, yeah, Taylor, what other ones are jumping out at you?

• 19:37Speaker 03

  Um, God, it's tough because everyone's asking us what we're doing with the products. And we've been so focused on just making sure that the teams are going to be aligned and like that every individual has like a place and like they have, they're empowered to like continue, you know, creating value and more value and that kind of stuff. So on the product end, it's kind of like, it just hasn't been our focus, but I think there's some obvious sort of next steps are where we're coming. One is, I think that the... The potential for a desktop application with MetaMask is an obvious one. We've been working on, uh, like we have our existing desktop app, but we've also been working on this new, uh, sort of very lightweight signer. That's just like the core, uh, I guess the core of a lot.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  Um, and we can build that out. Um, and that acts more similar to how MetaMask acts, where you basically have, uh, like a website or a app that is, is where you're, uh, getting the information that you need and you're constructing the transaction. And then the desktop, uh, applet, I guess signer thing that we're, we're building. Um, that's just that, that final piece. And so its responsibility is sort of just this, the, I guess the last mile, right? Where you sign it and you want to know what you're signing. Um, and, uh, uh, the desktop just, it enables a lot of, I guess, functionality that, that the browser does it.

• 21:03Speaker 03

  Um, the other thing is, you know, MetaMask has a, a list a mile long of things that we can improve upon, things that can be cleaned up. Um, it, it, some of it is, is like indirect response to users and support tickets and that kind of stuff. Uh, some of it is, uh, the mile long list of Twitter commentary that floods in literally every single day. Um, and I think it's really important that we, uh, you know, in, as the team is scaling up, as the users are just like streaming through the front door, uh, we get better at prioritizing like how all of these different desires, um, fit into both the short-term plan and the long-term plan, right?

• 21:46Speaker 03

  Because we have to balance the bugs and the security issues or the privacy issues with, um, you know, the really influential guy on Twitter who decided that today was the day where he was gonna unleash the, the tort of complaints on Sudan. Um, and yeah, I think working together on all of these things, it's like, it's not just like new fancy things. It's also just really, really improving what we already have.

• 22:11David Hoffman?

  What about the branding? What's happening to the MyCrypto branding? Is MyCrypto turning into MetaMask? Or are we keeping the MyCrypto branding? What's going on there?

• 22:20Speaker 03

  The, I honestly assumed that MyCrypto, the MyCrypto brand would like be slowly phased out in favor of MetaMask. But you can't tweet the word MetaMask right now without being like, just having a pile of reply bots on you.

• 22:36David Hoffman?

  Oh, my God. Yeah. So for the listeners, I tweeted out like the link to this livestream via Twitter. And like instantaneously, seven bots came and said, hey, like, do you need MetaMask support? Email this scam email or fill out this scam.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Instant support form.

• 22:50David Hoffman?

  Yeah, then which obviously is requesting for private keys. That must be a mess.

• 22:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we're keeping the MyCrypto brand alive for now because we can still tweet.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  I think we can reclaim, you know, I mean, part of this is like a symptom of how Twitter works, where it's just like really easy to impersonate anyone. But, you know, we've got some ideas for how we can continue to combat the fishers. I don't want to like, you know, let the fishers get a head start on our countermeasures. But it is a cat and mouse game. And, you know, also, you know, we're getting some excellent security thinkers at MyCrypto that'll, that'll help us build out better, you know, response and defensive capabilities for our users. So I'm stoked about that, too. Also, though, you know, just Taylor, since you bring up like, I don't know, like, is the brand trash? Like, or is it the best PR? It's like, it's the word you can't say. I don't know. I'm undecided on this.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  It's like, but yeah, it's almost, it's almost become a joke. And it's almost become like an inoculation where like, everybody knows they're like, oh, you said the word. And like, if you're in on that joke, then you're, you're kind of like mentally inoculated against the tactic. And so I think there's something healthy going on in the, in the community there.

• 24:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, it's crazy. It's like, so you guys have been at this for six years, which is like an absolute, like you're the adults of the space. Okay. A lot of people coming in, like myself included, you know, a little bit are still toddlers, you know, and you guys are sort of the adults of the space. And MetaMask and MyCrypto as well, they're no longer kind of, you know, can't be niche products, right? We're talking about some serious daily active users. And Dan, I was curious, like, what are the latest MetaMask daily active users? Or maybe like monthly active users?

• 24:40Speaker 02

  I know the monthly's offhand. I don't know the daily's offhand.

• 24:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Tell me the monthly.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Actually, I think, so, so, sorry, we crossed a big number and we didn't like celebrate it, but we crossed to the 30 million. So we're like 32 million now.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. I didn't know there's a, the audience has mics.

• 24:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's an audience to the left of David that's just out of camera. You can't see. Yeah, they watch every show live.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Talking plants.

• 25:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then daily active, I think we're, we're like eight or nine million, something like that.

• 25:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  30 million. Okay. Nine million dailies, 30 million monthly. That, that's absolutely insane growth. And, and so like, as, as we turn and talk a little bit about, you know, the future of wallets, I also just want to get us grounded in, in terms of your philosophy of how you think of a wallet and what you build next, right? And I'm wondering if there's some analogies from the past that we use here, or what your analogy might be, Dan and Taylor, right? It's like, because there's kind of a question of, is MetaMask going to turn into an ecosystem? What is it going to be? Is it going to be sort of a, is it like a browser? Are you like, is MetaMask Netscape? Is like Internet Explorer? Is it an operating system?

• 25:53Speaker 02

  We love comparing it to Netscape.

• 25:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Linux or Windows? Okay. So like, what is your analogy for this thing? Or is it a totally separate category, something new? We know it is like Netscape in that it's the first place you send your friends. You get in crypto, like you go to Coinbase, whatever, and then you want to do real crypto stuff, you go get a MetaMask wallet. So like, what's the analogy from your perspective? Maybe start with Dan.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Okay, so I think that what we are is something like a distributed user agent. So user agent is the word that you use for like when a computer is trusted to act on your behalf. So your operating system, you know, you plug in a USB thing, you're trusting the computer, the operating system to keep you safe from whatever you just plugged in. Hopefully it's good at that. The truth is, you know, most operating systems, you install an app, it kind of owns you, right? So they're kind of poor user agents that are working on it though. Browsers are another user agent, like it's right there in the HTTP headers is like, you know, it's like user agent string Mozilla, you know? So browsers are, they're keeping you safe from things that you don't trust.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  But both of those are these kinds of local user agents where you've got some stuff locally on your machine right here and it's controlling the permissions. Now browser, you're loading some remote content and, and you know, you're beaming some info back and forth. So you're, you're getting more distributed, but, but then once we added crypto in, now we've got this kind of agency, this kind of like user decision-making and computer power that is not on your computer anymore and it's not on any one person's computer. So it's not suitable for a password. And so you need to be able to make these, you, you need a process on your computer that's able to help you make informed decisions for a distributed network.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically that, so it's, it's kind of just like a operating system kernel or something. It's like a permissions manager. And, uh, you know, I think a lot of people, you know, you think about it first as a wallet. So you're like, it's financial, but I think we've already seen it's, it's way bigger than just finance. You know, it's like people are inventing new, I mean, even if you're just talking about finance, people are inventing new derivatives all the time, but then they're also like voting on stuff. And then they're also like selling art and then they're like, you know, making, you know, DAOs based on, it's like, so, so the, the metaphor of just money doesn't actually hold up for it at all. It's, it's way bigger than that. It's way more general. So it's, it's this kind of distributed authority.

• 28:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Dan, I kind of feel like you're saying Netscape. Like I'm gonna still use that one. Like I, it's like.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  I mean, I mean, it is also, it's similar. Uh, yeah, similar. One difference is that we don't provide the window. Right? So, uh, ideally your wallet can let you interact with applications from any host. So, you know, you could, you know, you could sign into a native desktop app using Wallet Connect today, right? And you can, you can sign in on a, uh, yeah, to a website, um, via mobile. I think it's just a matter of time before we're doing like NFC login and stuff like that. Like, I think the operating system is bigger than a window. It's like literally just like this fabric of digital agreements between us. Um, so, so kinda, but, but it's like the permissions part of, of Netscape kinda. And then just blow that out between all possible ways of interacting with other software.

• 29:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  I see. What do you think, Taylor? What would you add to that?

• 29:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that the reason it's really hard to like come up with a really sort of a one-to-one analogy is that, uh, one, you, you know, the difference between the operating system and the browser historically is, uh, there isn't this like financial layer to it. And money does change things. Um, the reason that like, uh, there are so many scammers and so many people trying to steal your crypto is that, uh, it's, it's money, like crypto's money. Um, and so that adds like a whole new layer. Um, and then the biggest, uh, I guess realization that people are probably starting to understand more tangibly today with NFTs and the like is, um,

• 30:00Speaker 03

  what the, the sort of the things that we're interacting with, they are, uh, anything, like it's infinite, right? So similar to how like, I guess the browser can access this content or load up this content and that content can be anything. Um. The, you know, what MetaMask is interacting with can also be anything. However, it's, it's much more. Uh, it's not just content, it's much more personal. So, you know, you could be, uh. In the same way that right now, like you go and you visit a DAP and you send some. Uh, you send some ETH somewhere, or you put it over a bridge, or you lend it out, or whatever it is.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  You're, you're not only like, uh, giving this, this thing control over your finances. Uh, it's also, you know, with NFTs, it's, it's not literally money, it's these, uh, anything from like a JPEG or a collectible or a store value, or whatever you wanna say. But it could also be like, uh. Your identity, uh, it could be like, uh, uh, your, your like relationships or your personal sort of like network, right? You could be like, uh, uh. Sharing little nuggets, or the entire, sort of your entire social graph with the network, um. Uh, access.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  Like, you know, that could or could not be like mapped to, uh, the in-real-life reality that we live in. Um. There's things that are just like fundamental to our personal being. And so. I think when we visit a website, it's a much more passive experience in general. Um, yes, like you can log in and yes, you can like put your name in there and stuff, but. Um, the wallet is, is ultimately gonna be a thing, be a thing where when you sign a transaction, you're giving. Some piece of yourself, right? Whether that's a piece of your, your financial identity or a piece of your literal finances, all the way to like. Yeah, your work identity, your gamertag, like, you know, or, or your level on that game.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Uh, and I think that it's really important for people to understand that. Um. Uh. What exactly this stuff is that, that you're giving permission? Uh, or the wallet is controlling the permission to, or whatever you wanna say. Uh, whatever that stuff is, is like, whatever people dream up, it could be literally anything. And that's a really, uh. Mind-boggling concept.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  To realize as a wallet builder.

• 32:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  It is super mind boggling and the stakes are so much higher. It's almost like as we transition, as humanity transitions into this digital future in the metaverse, right? Your ETH address almost becomes like your home address. And like when you're, when you're signing things, you're like inviting someone to come into your home. Like, that's how personal this space sort of is, only it's in the digital world.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  Right. And that's what I think like the wallet as like this analogy to this like thing that's in your pocket that has your, like your cash in it, has your credit cards in it, maybe has like your library card in it. I think it's a good first analogy because it is like giving this access to these things. But it really, I like your house analogy because that's what it is, right? It's like everything that you, that you are, that you experience, that you have, that you own, that you've borrowed, tokens that represent something that you've borrowed on a different chain. You know, like just, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot.

• 33:36David Hoffman?

  The analogy that comes to my mind is a Harry Potter Horcrux. Taylor, you said that when you sign something, like you give away a piece of yourself. Well, usually we're interacting with contracts that we trust, right? Like, I'm okay with me giving a little, giving access to my soul to like Uniswap or something. Like, I'll let Uniswap trade my tokens when I press the buttons. But everyone needs to be cognizant that when like they sign a message that they're, or and they're, or they're giving some approval to something, somehow, somewhere, that approval is to do whatever you're allowing it to do to your wallet, which could be anything, right? So it's, it's like, you know, it's signing away a little bit of yourself saying like, I trust you with this. Uh, please, please don't scam me.

• 34:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Have you guys ever considered calling the proof transaction soul bonding?

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Bond soul?

• 34:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. Do you want to bond your soul to Uniswap?

• 34:26Speaker 02

  I mean, I like having playful language in there and it'd be cool if we allowed like theming so that people could like subscribe to like the playful language that appealed to them. You know, because like, like, let's say if there's a transaction where we're not able to make it coherent. You know, you might as well be bonding your soul because you're you're taking a total leap of faith on whatever this application is, you know, and people do that way more often than we're comfortable with. And it's like, I think it's one of the most important roles for the wallet is is enabling those like, it's it's like, you know, 90% of interactions are stuff we get. It's like, oh, token transfers, bidding on an NFT, yada, yada. It's like, what, you know, but then there's that, that, those latest things. And those are the exciting things and we need like pioneers to like,

• 35:11Speaker 02

  yeah, basically leap their soul into these abysses and then let us know if it hurt.

• 35:22David Hoffman?

  Yo, was that mushroom poisonous?

• 35:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically. Yeah, we're like, we're at the like eating poisonous mushrooms phase of trying out.

• 35:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm loving the analogies on this episode.

• 35:35David Hoffman?

  Guys, we want to get into a lot of like the product roadmap and trajectories of the ecosystem as a whole. But just a few more details on the merger. After the this merger is completed and the teams have cohered, how big will MetaMask be? How many like employees are we talking about right now?

• 35:54Speaker 02

  It's it's a, we just crossed over 50.

• 35:57David Hoffman?

  Wow, wow.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  And I was thinking.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of rules. But there's like, yeah, there's, yeah, I mean, that's like security. That's like internal tools. That's like, you know, it's between mobile and extension and the shared libraries and our snaps initiative, you know, but.

• 36:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, but you still have, so that's the core MetaMask team, right? And then there's also, I think people don't really understand the structure because I didn't understand the structure. But you also have customer support, which is sort of its own adjacent. It's like a Venn diagram. There's overlap, but it's it's sort of managed in its own way, which is really efficient and nice and also creates some problems. And then there's also like Codify that is again its own little team, right? Like

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're they're working on a lot of different kinds of just ecosystem enhancing features like the swaps feature in MetaMask. And so it's like another group in consensus that we just collaborate really closely with and like increasingly is becoming like, you know, a proper part of the team. Like we think of them as one, but we don't count them in our headcount.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that's what I was gonna say is that the headcount is weird because the reality is that there aren't these like very hard lines in the sand between, say, MetaMask, Codify and support. However, if you look at the the, I don't know, the HR documents, there is a very hard line in the sand. So it's a I haven't got my head around how big it is now. It's kind of insane.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:33David Hoffman?

  And this question

• 37:34Speaker 02

  kind of Daftokers.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, that too.

• 37:38David Hoffman?

  This next question, I think, came from Tim Baco, might have come from Danny Ryan. Sorry to whoever asked it on Twitter. But my crypto uses an open source license, but MetaMask uses a proprietary one. So does that mean that my crypto's license is changing or what's going on with that?

• 37:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, let me figure this out.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  Does it mean that? I don't know that offhand. It might mean that, or we can figure out an exception for it. I think we haven't had that conversation yet.

• 38:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, so just like a comment on MetaMask license is like, like we we want to be as as open as possible. I think when we when we closed down our license, it was partly because we were about to release our first monetization strategy. And we were getting forked upstream of our own product, meaning you're being competed by with by a platform that could distribute us before we could get to our customers. So we were nervous that we just wouldn't even get a chance to to make any revenue at all. If we come up with any Any way or any agreement with like the distribution channels. I think we'd be really excited and eager to just like drop the license again.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  I think, I think long term intellectual property licenses aren't going to succeed just because the internet makes everything just so easy to copy. And I mean, source code's open. You can, you can copy it and distribute it on your own if you wanted to. You know, it's very easy to violate the license. I just can't advise that, you know. But, uh, but you know, like I, I, I think that long term, we're trying to make tools that, that enable building new social constructs that facilitate. Yeah, new, new ways of ma- making money and new ways of doing business. And yeah, sorry, sometimes we, uh, haven't innovated in the social layer before our technological layer like. Required revenue and stuff. So I think it's kind of like a first mover disadvantage in a way because like.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  You know, like, of course MetaMask wanted to be a DAO when we started, but there were no wallets to build a DAO with yet. We like had to do the traditional route. But you know, I think we've got support from consensus to like. Try to, you know, we, we know that, you know, exit to community is a hard road or whatever, but I, I believe that we have desire to. And it's, it's really a matter of like figuring out the path. So, so yeah, people who think about exiting the community, who think about new ways of running businesses, keep those ideas flowing. Because I think, you know, they're going to be the foundation of like everything in the future.

• 40:08David Hoffman?

  Well, exit, sorry, go ahead, Taylor.

• 40:11Speaker 03

  I just want to add on a little bit of context, like, uh. MetaMask is really the first wallet that is actually like successfully monetized period. And I think that it's really easy for people to, uh, especially with the consensus name as well, like. Look at it as, uh, I don't know, like this traditional thing, this big bad corporate dude in the room. Or like, oh, they have so much money, what are they doing like that, those types of ideas. But I think it's, it's important to realize that one, um, wallets historically have not monetized at all. And if they have, it's been basically, um, acquiring users to push those users to a secondary product. So like one of the older, oldest probably Bitcoin wallets, blockchain, their revenue doesn't come from their wallet.

• 40:56Speaker 03

  Their revenue came from their block explorer, right? And advertisements that were served there and stuff. And the wallet was just a, uh. Yeah, it was a user acquisition tool to push towards the Block Explorer and also towards later on like lending, just in OTC desk and stuff. So for MetaMask to do this as a wallet and to monetize, I think is an important thing for the industry because as we discussed, the wallet is so, so, so important and key. And it's important that's aligned with users, not that it's just a user acquisition tool for something else. And I think that now we will see in the next coming years, we've already seen it a little bit.

• 41:40Speaker 03

  Now other wallets can can raise money on MetaMask's numbers, right? And say, this is the path. And if we get this many users, this is a sense of like the money and the revenue that we can do and they can raise money and that's better for everyone in this ecosystem.

• 41:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  I want to just like underline that point and then we're gonna have to, you know, cut to sponsors, but maybe like tease the next. When you guys say like, basically in 2021, wallets and MetaMask got its business model. And prior to 2021, it felt like wallets were a public good and suffered from the public good problem of being underfunded, yet like you guys were taking on so much support for the industry. Now you have a business model and that thing is cranking. How do we know this? Because we can see the revenue flows on chains. We're talking cumulative $300 million collected in fees since inception. I can look at that on Dune Analytics and we might after the break. So we'll cover that in a little bit when we come back, David. And I think you've got some other things to cover too, right?

• 42:39David Hoffman?

  Oh, gosh, we have actually saved some of the best questions for the second half, including like, well, after swaps features, what feature comes next? Because I've got some ideas, especially in the world of many, many layer twos and bridges. Perhaps a bridge feature is coming, maybe? I would, I would like to pick your guys' brain on that. We have a question from Vitalik about light clients and we have other questions about social recovery and just other things of that nature. So we're gonna ask all of those questions, which is gonna be super, super exciting, right after we talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. When you shop for plane tickets, you probably use Kayak, Expedia, or Google to come Compare ticket prices. So why would you limit yourself to just one exchange when you trade crypto? When you make your trades, you want to make sure you're getting the best possible price on your trade. And that's why you should be using Matcha.

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• 44:46David Hoffman?

  Uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on Ethereum that lets you trade any token at the current market price. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries, just autonomous code on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy. The Uniswap Grants Program is accepting applications for grants. Do you have something of value that you think you want to contribute to the Uniswap ecosystem? No matter how big or small your idea is, you can apply for a unique grant at uniswapgrant.org and help steer Uniswap in the direction that you think it should go. Thank you, Uniswap, for sponsoring Banklist. All right, guys, we are back with the MetaMask team. And as we alluded to right before the sponsor break, the MetaMask swap feature has generated

• 45:28David Hoffman?

  millions of dollars, almost 300, I think actually over $300 million since inception, which is fantastic. And so Dan and Taylor, what are the next big products coming out of MetaMask? What's going to follow a $300 million revenue inside of like three or four months or however long it's been introduced? What comes after swaps?

• 45:50Speaker 02

  First off, I'll just say to Taylor's last point, like, we're not going to go the point, the direction of pushing people to add, because I think that like a wallet's responsibility is to not influence people's buying decisions. And so one thing I think we've always been really, really like, strong minded about is like, we're trying to make product decisions that empower users to be making informed decisions, but are not like influencing them, are not like facilitating dopamine rushes and addictions towards like, you know, compulsive trading or anything like that. Like, it took a long time for us to figure out swap designs where we felt like it was ethical.

• 46:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's very Web3 of you, by the way, Dan.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:28David Hoffman?

  Very true ethos.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Now, if we, if we do swaps and we've, or sorry, bridges, and we have experimented, and we had an internal hackathon, and we have like a basic one, you know, we had a basic, you know, hackathon level and working. But if we want to do that, like, we want it to be resilient, and a lot of times that would mean like, not relying on just one bridge, perhaps. Like, so, so I think one way we're thinking about it is, how can we make either an aggregation of bridges, or make it user extensible or something? People who know a lot of our past product direction, like, know that, pretty big fans of extensibility, like, like, the only way we're going to explode as, you know, with as much ingenuity as the community has, is if we let people just kind of add to the options in real time.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  So, so I do think that bridging is a super legitimate case, because it's just one of those things where the user shouldn't have to think about it at all. Like, at the end of the day, like, you should not have to care about whether you're on layer two or not, like, maybe when you're first getting in, knowing the risks of where you're keeping your money. Maybe that's like worth having, but then beyond that, it's just like having it, right? So bridging bridging is credible, maybe aggregated yields or lending or something like that. Things where we can help people like choose from a lot of options. Those are, those are on the table, but, but they're like going to be supplementary to the core product, which is like helping people interact with new stuff, use DAFs and help other people be creative.

• 47:58David Hoffman?

  So there are tons and tons of bridges out there. We had like a panel that had like five of them on, on for just a layer two bridging conversation. And then there's also a pretty strong handful of bridge aggregators as well that are just aggregating the bridges. And now that MetaMask has this insane amount of revenue coming in via the swaps feature and this pretty healthy treasury. Is there a world where MetaMask just buys an aggregator and just injects it right into the app?

• 48:28Speaker 02

  Any bridge aggregators watching, feel free to reach out.

• 48:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, I, I have a follow up on that. So on, on the, on the subject of bridging, right? So this is also where we get into, you know, some education territory or like some risk management territory. Okay. Because like, obviously we just came off of last week, feels like it was months ago. Last week, there was a $300 million, something in that range, bridge hack on the Solana wormhole bridge. And so part of our discussion in the bridge panel was like, hey, there are all of these different bridges, but users don't know which bridges carry, like what degree of risk. Taylor, do you have any thoughts on that? As somebody who's been like educating user interfaces in the space, you know, for six years. How do we deal with something like that?

• 49:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  How do you communicate to a user the risk level of the bridge that they're about to cross?

• 49:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is, that's the big question. And it's not just about bridges. It's not just about like, uh, I guess like educating people about where their money is. This applies to basically everything that the user is doing. Um, and one of the the things that I have been thinking very deeply about for years now is how do we empower each individual user? Um, as like that individual person that they are so that they can make an informed decision and actually give informed consent to the applications or the protocols that they're they're interacting with. Um, because one of the most challenging things as a wallet is like, we have people who are brand spanking new. We have people who are, uh,

• 50:06Speaker 03

  yeah, who don't speak English, who are in in countries that I've never heard of. We have, uh, and then we have all the way up to like the most experienced people and like Vitalik is, you know, like that that's a crazy sort of spread of demographics. Um, and so when we're thinking about bridges or we're thinking about features in general, um, it's all about giving the user the ability to understand the right choice so that they can make it for themselves because we can't know what, uh, what a individual user's risk tolerance is. Um, and one of the explorations that I did, I think last year, uh, with design was like, can we have like a, like a risk mode like wrapped that our advanced users can like turn on, right? Where they're like,

• 50:51Speaker 03

  yeah, just give it all, give it all to me, give me all the most like cutting edge fun stuff like, uh, would that be a feasible sort of, uh, thing that people would would find valuable? Um, and the answer is like, well, they'll probably get wrapped, so maybe not, but but it did sort of unlock this, uh, this pattern of thinking where, uh, we just, we can't know what the user, like what their risk tolerance is. We can't know if this, uh, like the account that they have in their MetaMask, is that all of their money? Or have they over invested? Have they overextended their personal situation? And that's that's their entire thing? Or is this, uh, you know, one?

• 51:31Speaker 03

  One thousandth of what they hold on just Ethereum, you know, and they also have assets spread out everywhere else. And so those are the sorts of uh things we're thinking about. Uh I think it applies to bridges, it applies to signing transactions, right? So we've been working really hard, both of both of our teams separately have been working really hard on uh getting people more insight into their transactions. Um and that's that uh. Yeah, that will only carry us forward uh as we see more and more of uh. As we see the technology just being built faster, right? Like it's insane that in. What, three, four years? We've gone from like uh.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  We've gone from like, I think Vitalik after the Dow was like, don't put more than ten million dollars in a smart contract. And now there's like. Billions and billions in a single smart contract just sitting there. Like, it's it's absurd, it's insane.

• 52:29David Hoffman?

  I would imagine spanning the gamut between like allowing and enabling somebody's grandmother to use crypto. And and also at the same time, enabling Vitalik Buterin to also use crypto, having to span both of those things. Uh it's a tall order. Um and one of the things that we are about to span right now are all the chains. Um and right right now, all the layer twos have this nice fantastic dropdown menu where you can go down and just in MetaMask. Put down the dropdown menu and select your new layer two. Um is that the final form of what a layer two MetaMask looks like? Or as we go through this great layer two migration?

• 53:07David Hoffman?

  How is MetaMask going to adapt and and change to live uh to allow users, enable users to be living this many, many multi-chain world?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've been we've been thinking about it a a lot for a long time and uh. We've finally got like some, I think, really strong designs that we really love that we think are going to carry us well into the multi-chain world where. Um yeah, you should be able to see all your assets uh in one place and yeah, possibly all your accounts if you want to look at all your accounts at once. And uh even different types, hardware wallets, contract accounts. You know, on their various chains, but like distinguishing visually when those accounts are a different type, or if those assets are on a different chain, or if like, you know, if you you can't just roll together like ETH and Solana ETH and expect that to be a good long-term UX. That's that's the kind of thing where,

• 54:00Speaker 02

  oh, it's gonna look like the best UX at first. And I could totally see people being like, oh, why don't you do that? Like this wallet shows those as the same asset, right? And then you get half wrecked. And you're like, you know, and that's one of those learning moments. But but I do I do think that there's a path to letting people make that choice themselves. So like, we've got the idea of, you know, you should be able to still have a portfolio view. And if you want to deliberately treat things as one asset, like, like, you should be able to also. So, yeah, yeah, the the network dropdown menu is basically like a legacy design thing. It was it's practically left over from a time that I feel like we started and thought Ethereum would just carry

• 54:42Speaker 02

  everything. And, you know, that is just so so long gone that, you know, we, you know, I think we did a great job of, you know, kind of coming up with the compromises that built on top of what we have, coming up with like an API for adding new networks to your menu. And that's that's good enough to carry us for a little while. And, you know, it's like, like, most of our usage today is not, you know, is on non-Ethereum networks. So so clearly, it's like working as like a monkey patch, but for the that full future where we're just like swimming and, you know, various types of digital authority from various sources, like, yeah, it'd be cool if you have like an asset manager that just kind of gracefully handles all of it for you.

• 55:21David Hoffman?

  Is there is there a world where MetaMask expands beyond EVM chains and starts to talk to other blockchains like Solana or Terra or anything that doesn't run on on an EVM?

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, these days, just to be in Ethereum wallet means running some non-EVM stuff, right? Like from like Fuel Labs' rollups to, I mean, even really Starkware and ZK Sync, while they're getting like, you know, let's say, very close to, you know, you can compile your solidity to them. They're not true VM machines. So, supporting Ethereum L2s requires us being dynamic enough to support like arbitrary execution environments. And so, yeah, we're working on our, we've got our extensibility system, SNAPS, in now a totally public auto-updating beta called Flask. So developers can play with that. And yeah, you can, you can build the beginnings of a Solana support for MetaMask today if

• 56:17Speaker 02

  you wanted to. Now, it's, it's going to be a little while longer. We're refining a lot of those APIs to make them integrate smoothly into the UI. Like, right now, they don't actually add a much UI. They, they give you the ability to add an API to websites. So you can kind of start with DApps and prompt the user for consent, which is like, kind of our core, our core job is like, talk to DApps and get consent from the user and then interact with private keys. And so that's what SNAPS can do today. But it's going to keep on integrating more and more deeply with the wallet. And long-term, I, I think that our support for all chains is going to be pretty much equivalent. It's just going to be like your wallet. Is this like, you know, it's like your collection of the chains that you subscribe to, the accounts you keep on those, and the assets that they contain.

• 57:03David Hoffman?

  And this next question comes from Polynaya. Any social recovery features coming in the future, perhaps?

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, social recovery is, it's been like one of those things where for so long, it, I remember, like, at the UX Summit in Toronto in like 2017, people were like saying that research showed people will never accept social recovery. So I'm super grateful to wallets like Argent who are like validating it. And, and I, but I think that the design space for user consensual recovery mechanisms is actually huge. And so that's, again, a reason that I'm excited about building an extensibility system, because we're going to build a system where- You can add arbitrary smart contracts. Now, average person isn't gonna onboard and then start picking out plugins.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  So there's gonna be an important phase where we like choose validated solutions and recommend them to people. And, and I think there's like a really important responsibility for like stepping users through like what their risk preference is like. You know, hey, do you happen to have a perfect memory? Have I got a solution, you know, or, or do you have some friends you can trust? But you know, not everybody even has those things. You know, so, so social recovery is, is an excellent tool. I don't think it's a cure all, but I think that it like points at like a, a much better direction long-term for all sorts of wallets.

• 58:25David Hoffman?

  And then, sorry, Taylor, you wanna go ahead?

• 58:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I was, I, I just wanted to say one thing, sorry. Is with the possible flow, Dan, be like, let's say you're, you're, you're setting up Metamask for the first time. You get your seed phrase, that sort of thing. And then there's some kind of a button, which is like, oh, here's, you know, third-party smart contract that's, you know, semi-trusted, but it could be a list. It could be one, it could be multiple, where you can activate social recovery. Not necessarily something that Metamask builds, but these third parties kind of extend or snap into the Metamask ecosystem. Is that right? These third parties, you know, smart contracts?

• 58:59Speaker 02

  What I'm saying is that when we're ready, you won't even need to back up your seed phase in the first place. Well, I mean, I like, my, my point is just like, during onboarding, we should be able to give people options, right? The seed phrase is, the secret recovery phrase, sorry, is a, we're, we're trying to normalize that because you understand what the heck seed phrase means.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Depending on people's risk preferences, if people are willing to keep a secret, maybe the secret recovery phrase is the right solution. But if they're going social recovery right off the bat, they're like, oh yeah, no, I've got three friends who are crypto, you know, natives, and they all have their accounts backed up, so I trust them and I trust their ability to have their accounts backed up. If we can establish that, then yeah, we don't need you memorizing keys, we just need to know who your friends are. So, so yeah, like I think, I think that like.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Collaborating with the user to figure out the best solution for them is probably the long term answer.

• 59:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think to provide a little bit more context about basically everything that Dan says. Dan doesn't, isn't thinking about like what the experience is today and what the experience is tomorrow, right? So like when we think about like, okay, social recovery is a thing. So MetaMask can add an option to this one view that exists today so that the user can have a choice. No, no, we're talking about like, there's a multitude of ways to access your account. One of them is the secret recovery phrase, one of them is social recovery. But there's also a whole bunch of current technologies and future technologies that are coming down the pipeline that will enable people to access or sign transactions, right? Not even access secrets, just sign transactions.

• 1:00:36Speaker 03

  So what Dan wants to sort of set up is not specifically putting social recovery in that one view of MetaMask, but enabling an extensible system where anyone who builds something that's worthwhile can add it to MetaMask. And then anyone who finds that thing to be valuable, whether it's like a safety thing or whether it's accessing a new experimental high-risk DeFi thing, they'll be able to do so. And as the individual, they'll be able to access these different things. And that doesn't necessarily impact every MetaMask user, right?

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  When we're talking about 30 million users, like it's a big decision to add a single bridge, right? The consideration is not just like, is this risky or not? The consideration is also like, you know, what, what does it mean for MetaMask to put that in and support their development? It also means, what does it mean to essentially vouch for them and their credibility? And the same applies to not just bridges, to everything. So by sort of decentralizing the, like the very feature set and also making MetaMask this sort of core element in which every user Has their individual sort of like set of things.

• 1:02:01Speaker 03

  That is, that's where like, that's where we're headed. We're not just like trying to add social recovery, you know what I mean? And it's not going to be a short path. It's a, it's a long-term vision, but it's really exciting.

• 1:02:13David Hoffman?

  It sounds like Netscape is getting extensions.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we're getting there. And, and one other, just an example of how like the design space like goes way beyond even social recovery accounts is like, not all things even fit the account paradigm. So like, take the tornado cash voucher, for example, you go into tornado cash, you deposit some ETH and then you get a new secret to keep track of. And it's like, right now, what do you do with that? You like?

• 1:02:37David Hoffman?

  David's a desktop.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  I don't know, like, it's like your wallet's keeping a little encrypted vault, you know? I have password manager is probably a better solution for now, but like, like being able to just hold all your digital assets, like, you're regardless of like how they're controlled is like, I think a, a long-term really, really strong, you know, guiding light for us.

• 1:02:58David Hoffman?

  Okay, one more question before the fun one that everyone wants us to ask, which I think people will know is coming is that this one's from Vitalik Buterin, so you know it's a good one. When like client verification for MetaMask?

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, really. It's been such a really long dream and, uh, you know, we had a project called Mustakala and we had, we had a small team working on it back in the MetaMask is a public goods that is underfunded days. And they were, you know, it probably should have been a, you know, 20-person team, but it was three people and they, they were stretched very thin. And so we, we did not achieve that goal, but a lot of those people went on to bigger teams and started working on those bigger clients. And, uh, you know, so some of those ideas went into TurboGaff. Some of those ideas are going into Laconic that should be launching soon. I'm super eager for those. The truth is that our team isn't really working on like protocol development.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  So we're kind of like, hey, you know, you, you tell us, you know, like I, I think we're incredibly eager to, to support whatever options users could want. And especially once we have like, let's say a desktop client, being able to like let a user turn on various types of clients. So be a real option for us.

• 1:04:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Can we can we just zoom out for a minute because we asked that in a protocol researcher Vitalik language when like client verification, but I want to zoom out for so everyone understands they they might have heard this is like there's kind of a meta mass dependency on Infura, for instance, or like third parties to serve the chain. And if these API services go down, we can't use meta mass that that sort of thing. That's what Vitalik means by like client verification. Is that right, Dan?

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's it's a way because because today, if you want to run a Ethereum client and like not have to trust Infura for your data, you have to run this much more heavyweight process, right? The Ethereum protocol, I think, was designed to take up a whole personal computer. So that person is not running that on their phone. And so yeah, plugging into Infura or some, you know, centrally hosted thing ends up being the norm. Light clients imply that there's a lighter process that the user might keep on their device, you know, their laptop, phone, desktop, whatever, that might just be a little more practical. You know, a thing, though, is, you know, meta mass does let you connect to any source of information even today. So if there

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  were a viable light client today, you know, please ship it as a desktop app, write a simple guide to how to point meta mass to it. We could be doing it already. Of course, if that gets validated, we'll be very eager to fold it into the product. But but yeah, like, like, we are not really doing that protocol development in-house presently. So we're really counting on and hoping for people working on, you know, stateless client design and stuff like that, and very, very eager for it to come along.

• 1:05:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Guys, this has been a lot of fun, absolutely fantastic to have you both on. Really excited about the merger and how many more millions of monthly active users we can onboard to crypto and onboard to web three. That's that's what this is all about. And I wish I could blame this last question on the chat. I'm sure they've asked, but the secret is David and I really wanted to ask as well. And I feel like this is fair game, Dan, because you you mentioned the term exit to community. So we got to ask, when masked token, is that a thing? Is that coming? Is there anything you can say about that?

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  I can probably say that it's not enough of a thing that you should be getting excited about it right now.

• 1:06:29Speaker 03

  Yes, do not change your behavior because someone on the internet told you this and that.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  If some new account messages you and lets you know about the upcoming airdrop, you're probably lying.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  We've got, we've got ideas for tokens and you know, and we're, we've got permission to explore those ideas. But you know, the truth is like, like we were saying about, you know, our job is to keep users safe. So when we endorse something like it, it has the potential to just absolutely undermine all of our credibility. So like, we're gonna, if we do anything, we're gonna do it because we got it right. You know, and a lot of the utility, you know, a lot of the token ideas we have, they might not be the things that people would be excited about. You know, I think people would be excited to just get an airdrop in their wallet. Well, you know, like I said on a recent interview, like unfortunately, we've done okay at keeping our users private. So we actually don't know who are all our users are.

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  You know, there are things we could do, you know, they're, you know, but those things become gamable as soon as people circulate. They're like, just use swaps a lot. It's like, okay, well, if we're trying to do a fair drop, we're not gonna over rely on that. You know, we're, we're not trying to pick something that you can game. So, you know, just make responsible decisions for yourself and we, if we choose to do any token to enable our product, we'll get it to you in the most responsible way possible. Don't try to game it. Don't try to, don't trust links sent to you on Twitter. Just like, let it be a surprise when it unexpectedly happens in the very distant future.

• 1:08:03David Hoffman?

  It sounds like.

• 1:08:06David Hoffman?

  Taylor's really like, pump the brakes, guys. So it sounds like you guys are approaching the token with the way that you approach everything else. Every other feature about Metamask, which is with caution, with patience and with saying no before you say yes. So it sounds like you guys are into the concept or possibility of a token and are ready to say yes to it. If the, if the idea is right and if you guys discover the optimum use case in a way that aligns with you guys' ethos and treat your guys' users the way that you want to treat them.

• 1:08:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Alleged token.

• 1:08:38David Hoffman?

  Alleged token.

• 1:08:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think. Yeah, that that's probably the most fair take. I just want to emphasize like uh not only do we have like pretty severe PTSD from years of people uh uh uh making empty promises in return for tokens that then end up users of our products and emailing our support, right? Like not only that, but we've also seen like the variety of ways that uh incentives can just like kind of muck everything up and and end up uh I guess more exploitative than than uh empowering. And so when I think about like a token, when I think about uh I guess the goal of all of this, right?

• 1:09:23Speaker 03

  Uh I think about how will this improve the user's life, like an individual user's life? And I got that doing an airdrop improves everyone's life, you know, dropping free money on people's spaces, but you know, it's uh it's got to be fair. Uh I think it's got to be empowering. Um and I think it really has to be careful about the incentives that that we create. We don't want to create an incentive to uh say uh you know, a third party, an outside malicious person. We don't want to create that incentive for them to to attack every MetaMask user, right? And we don't necessarily even want to uh like kind of put every MetaMask user on blast by saying, hey, there's a MetaMask user, go get them.

• 1:10:08Speaker 03

  And so these are all the sort of concerns that we have. Um and I think that lastly, I just want to comment that uh some of the most important people, I guess, uh in this space to MetaMask as a product are not uh necessarily the users, like they're they're who get the most attention, but DApp developers are probably like uh insanely important. Um and it's it's because there is something to do on Ethereum that MetaMask has the users it does. Uh and it's also because there's things to do on Ethereum that users have things to do, right? And money to make and games to play. So um. How I'm sort of like looking at the different potentials and thinking about this is like,

• 1:10:53Speaker 03

  you have these distinct groups and they all interact in certain ways. How can we create something that empowers all of them and makes all of them better? And also like funds, good things coming forward, right? Not just dropping free money, but actually, I don't know, incentivizing good building and best practices.

• 1:11:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, there you go, guys. No mask token to announce today, of course. Maybe it's on the distant horizon. We don't know, but if MetaMask does it, they're going to do it right, is the comment. Maybe it's outside.

• 1:11:26David Hoffman?

  And hopefully they'll do a livestream with us.

• 1:11:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, exactly. Come back on that day if such a day were to occur in the future. Anyway, guys, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for talking about wallets with us. Such an important application for crypto. We really appreciate it.

• 1:11:43Speaker 03

  Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Also, we forgot, if you want to work for us, because we're like always hiring, please like get in me or Dan's DMs because we're growing our team like a lot, a lot, a lot, especially security and DevRel, marketing and communications people.

• 1:11:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  As we say so often in crypto, get a job in crypto. 2022 should be the year you get a job in crypto. Like, we have sustainable business models, okay? Like, we have recurring revenue. Get a job. So we will link to you Taylor and Dan's Twitter accounts and hopefully you get some interested applications in your DMs. Of course, guys, risks and disclaimers. None of this has been financial advice. This entire journey is risky. ETH is risky. Bitcoin is, DeFi is. You can definitely lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.

• 1:12:38David Hoffman?

  Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcast, and community as a Bankless Premium subscriber to get the most out of your Bankless experience. You'll get access to our market analysis, our alpha leaks, and exclusive content, and even the Bankless token for airdrops, raffles, and unlocks. If you're interested in crypto, the Bankless community is where you want to be. Click the link in the description to become a Bankless Premium subscriber today. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the channel for in-depth interviews with industry leaders, Ask Me Anythings, and weekly rollups where we summarize the week in crypto and other

• 1:13:23David Hoffman?

  fantastic content. Thanks, everyone.