Special Forces & Paramilitary Contractor | Erik Lawrence | Ep. 339

Erik Lawrence has served with the U. S. Army Special Forces and/or U. S. Government for over 20 years. Erik's new book: https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Support-Veterans-Navigating-Overcoming/dp/1961989204/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=toOfo&content-id=amzn1.sym.bc3ba8d1-5076-4ab7-9ba8-a5c6211e002d&pf_rd_p=bc3ba8d1-5076-4ab7-9ba8-a5c6211e002d&pf_rd_r=144-9783160-8516900&pd_rd_wg=mszY4&pd_rd_r=dbb39b8c-da48-4b00-aa43-ed6a2ec7c52b&ref_=aufs_ap_sc_dsk All of Erik's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Erik-Lawrence/author/B0BV7GWVWV?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=14e0a35a-37bb-41cc-ac4d-08f1736a421b ___________________________________________________ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured —————————————————————- Today's Sponsors: GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 50% OFF!!! Mando ⬇️ https://shopmando.com Promo code "TEAMHOUSE" for 40% off your starter pack. LUCY⬇️ https://lucy.co/HOUSE Use the code "House" for 20% off your first order! ____________________________________ Order Jack Murphy's book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" today! ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse —————————————————————— To help support the show and for all bonus content including: https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse -AD FREE AUDIO -AD FREE VIDEO -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Team House merch: ⬇️ https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample Want to sponsor the show? Email: ⬇️ [email protected] Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 3:09Speaker 04

  Special Operations.

• 3:13Speaker 04

  Covert Ops.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  Espionage. The Team House. With your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

• 3:30Speaker 05

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to episode 339 of The Team House. I'm Dave Park, here with Jack Murphy. Today, tonight, we're welcoming a good friend of ours, Erik Lawrence. Eric is former Special Forces and security contractor extraordinaire. We're also going to talk a bit about his book, Fire Support: A Veteran's Guide to Health, Healing, and Life Beyond Service, which is a phenomenal reference guide for all things

• 4:01Speaker 05

  mental, physical, and kind of spiritual health. You know, so anyway, Eric, thanks and welcome to the show.

• 4:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, appreciate it guys. It's always weird to be on here where most of my buddies have already been on your couch in one way or another.

• 4:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Well, you're kind of, they set the stage for you.

• 4:25Speaker 06

  Oh, right.

• 4:27Jack Murphy?

  And you're joining us from the beautiful, where are you right now?

• 4:30Speaker 06

  I'm out in the middle of nowhere, Arizona.

• 4:33Jack Murphy?

  Okay, looks nice.

• 4:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, water fasting, like a super genius.

• 4:38Jack Murphy?

  In Arizona?

• 4:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:43Speaker 05

  How many, how many days have you been on this water fest?

• 4:46Speaker 06

  I'm on day eight right now.

• 4:49Speaker 05

  Wow, well.

• 4:50Speaker 06

  I do it once a year.

• 4:51Speaker 05

  And we will, and how long will it last for you?

• 4:56Speaker 06

  I'll probably get hungrier because I'm bored around day 10.

• 4:59Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 5:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, you lose all your hunger, so it's not a bad deal, but you just miss flavor.

• 5:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll get into that because I know that that's kind of part of the detox and everything else that, you know, you champion. Let's talk a bit about you to start out with. What's your origin story? How did you grow up and what led you to the military?

• 5:25Speaker 06

  Well, my favorite line from a Steve Martin movie, you know, I was born a poor black child. But I was born in West Virginia, you know, seventies, good, rough time to grow up there. And you grew up hard and quick, so as soon as I could, I joined what we called the Army. And, and ran away from there. So.

• 5:48Speaker 06

  You know, it's a great place to learn all your outdoor skills and makes the Q course fairly simple at that point in time. Uh, because we know what, what other selection courses are run right there in my backyard. So, uh, it was a good place to grow up.

• 6:06Speaker 05

  And when you went into the Army, did you know about special forces or was it just you wanted to go to the Army?

• 6:13Speaker 06

  Well, that's where I had a smart neighbor who was in the 19th group. And I went straight in, so I had actually never been in another unit. Was in 19th when I was 17 years old. Uh, got tabbed at 21, E6 at 21, and then said, I'm going to first group.

• 6:32Jack Murphy?

  What, what year did you join the Army?

• 6:34Speaker 06

  Wasn't ecstatic about that. Say again?

• 6:36Jack Murphy?

  What year did you join the Army?

• 6:42Speaker 06

  Yeah. I'm sorry, what year was that? 1987. Oh, okay, okay, interesting.

• 6:48Speaker 05

  So you started, you went through SFAS and the Q as part of second and 19th?

• 6:55Speaker 06

  Correct, yeah, it was like selection number four. There were like ham sandwiches and it was atrocious. I mean, they really hadn't figured out what they were doing yet.

• 7:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. And so as soon as you got your long tab, you pretty much bailed on the guard and went to act, went to first group?

• 7:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, all the old guys, I mean, my whole team almost was Vietnam guys.

• 7:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:22Speaker 06

  They're like, get out of here, this is fine, you can come back.

• 7:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:26Speaker 06

  You know, and you're a 21-year-old E6 in 19th group back in the 90s, there's nothing to do.

• 7:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:34Speaker 06

  So, yeah, I immediately rolled into first group there.

• 7:38Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then what was that like for you going to first group, going out to Washington State?

• 7:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, I went, I loved Washington. I was on a mountain team, which is the best spot in the world to be on a mountain team. You know, we had no money, we had no budget, but the climbing team, if they said, hey, just come back in a month or two, we would.

• 8:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:00Speaker 06

  You know, but we'd run out of beer money. But we got a lot of training in, a lot of hiking in, a lot of really good mountain ops.

• 8:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:09Speaker 06

  Because you have the whole west coast there to work on.

• 8:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:14Speaker 06

  And then I rolled over to SOT team. It's always like CQB, it really likes blowing things up, hence why all my TBIs are helping me right now. Did that for quite a while, you know, great teammates, obviously. And then we got tired of going to Korea every trip. Because second battalion of first group was the Korea battalion. I transferred over to first in Okinawa.

• 8:39Speaker 06

  Then my luck and everybody else's second battalion's luck that showed up in first battalion, they changed their mission to Korea. So our first trips, we're all just looking at each other with a Glock in our mouth or a Beretta in our mouth going, really? Find a curb here, you know, and hopefully run into it.

• 8:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was, it was just fucking bad karma, man.

• 9:02Speaker 05

  In, in first group, there was like one battalion that was like Korea and Alaska, right? And then the other was like Thailand every trip.

• 9:09Speaker 06

  That was us, yeah, they had all of Asia and we had Korea.

• 9:14Speaker 06

  Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, you know, the nice places.

• 9:19Speaker 05

  Right.

• 9:20Speaker 06

  You know, I got frostbite in first group. It's like, how do you do that? But, uh, yeah, and then I was on the CIF there in Okinawa, which was obviously a good time. I really, uh, really did well there like that, did a lot of, a lot of the breaching. And, uh, man, we've really got to get smarter about breaching, which I hope they are.

• 9:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:43Speaker 06

  I spend half my time as TBI doctors now.

• 9:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:47Speaker 06

  Breaching is just no joke.

• 9:49Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 06

  So, uh.

• 9:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, we'll definitely talk about, about that because I think that's a big thing, you know, we, we've talked about it, uh, with, uh, Vining. Chuck O'Connor. Yeah, Chuck O'Connor, uh, and, uh, Vining, like, uh, you know, the overpressure that, none of us knew, like, we've.

• 10:10Speaker 06

  We had no idea.

• 10:11Speaker 05

  We've all eaten like hundreds of door breaches.

• 10:15Speaker 06

  We'd see how close we could get.

• 10:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 06

  Super geniuses.

• 10:20Speaker 05

  So was, you know, you, you mentioned being on, uh, on an SOT team and then going to CIF. That was pretty much a natural progression, right? That.

• 10:27Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 10:28Speaker 05

  The SOT became the CIF.

• 10:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, SOT is kind of like Sephardic light. It's the same course, just longer.

• 10:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 06

  And obviously you got to, you know, command directed mission.

• 10:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 06

  Which was good. I mean, you know, and all your buds from there.

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• 10:58Speaker 08

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• 12:40Speaker 06

  All went elsewhere, you know, to progress. So it's part of, you know, loan collection.

• 12:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:48Speaker 05

  And so what was, you know, from that time that you were in from eighty seven, eighty eight, you know, through your time in, you know, up in Korea and then out in Okinawa and, and everything. What were, aside from Korea, what were the, the missions, what was the mission set for first group at that time? Was, were there real world?

• 13:09Speaker 06

  Lot of FID, lot of FID. No, we, even in a SIF, we'd get spun up for something.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 06

  But they had cold feet back then. They were scared to get committed. They would make up excuses. You know, if there was a coup somewhere, we'd show up a week later.

• 13:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 06

  Like, okay, B team's been here a week.

• 13:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:28Speaker 06

  You know, what they're gonna do. But, uh, yeah, it was just really risk averse. It was very annoying.

• 13:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:35Speaker 06

  And, uh, pretty much why I wanted to get out.

• 13:39Speaker 05

  And so around, what year was it that you started looking at getting out?

• 13:44Speaker 06

  Uh, it was eighty seven, yeah, eighty seven, or no, sorry, God bless America, ninety eight.

• 13:49Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 13:50Speaker 06

  Ninety eight. Yeah, we had Big Mo as our battalion commander, Mo Holland. And, uh, I taught him some army regulations he didn't know, and he wasn't too happy about it. I found out you could, if you were not gonna reenlist, you could, uh, request a new ETS date. So I did that, and, uh, he was not polite about that, but in a week later, he signed it. And he goes, you'll be back. I said, sir, I won't be back. And then after nine eleven, I saw him up in, uh, up at, uh, oh, what the hell's that airfield? The big one there in, in Afghanistan, Dave.

• 14:30Speaker 05

  Bag, Baghrum?

• 14:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, Baghrum. I saw him up there. I said, I told you I wouldn't come back. And he was, he was giggling about it.

• 14:38Jack Murphy?

  Before we go into like post nine eleven, like before nine eleven, you spent some time in West Africa, right?

• 14:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, I left first group summer of ninety eight and within two weeks I was in Sierra Leone.

• 14:54Jack Murphy?

  Oh, okay.

• 14:55Speaker 06

  Back then, there wasn't very many special contracts like that going around and you kind of knew everybody that was doing something, you know, after nine eleven, everybody and their brothers are a pro, you know?

• 15:06Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 15:07Speaker 06

  But pre nine eleven, I bet there wasn't a hundred guys really doing work. And I got hired on to help with a State Department contract that where we we advised ECAMOG, which is the West African like NATO or UN force. Um, who is doing the peacekeeping and fighting in Sierra Leone and Liberia. So me and two other Americans, we entertained ourselves there for a couple of months, you know, fighting the REOF. And very interesting, a lot of lessons learned. I mean, learn more there in a couple of months than I did in group the whole time.

• 15:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 06

  Because we, the guys we were hanging out with were executive outcomes. I mean, these guys have been fighting since the seventies. And we'd be like, hey, let's do it this way. And they're like, no, we we lost like twelve guys and wherever doing that fifteen years ago. Like, okay, well, we won't do that. I'll just shut up and sit here.

• 16:09Speaker 06

  And very professional. I mean, I saw some of them twenty years later still in wars.

• 16:14Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:15Speaker 06

  So just great people, really great people. I still talk to some of them. I mean, Kobish Klaassen there in in South Africa, she's he's he's the merc of Africa right now, but a great friend of mine. So did that, did Liberia, I mean, quite a bit of work over there.

• 16:34Jack Murphy?

  What was, I have to like ask, like, what was that interface like for you as a State Department contractor with ostensibly, or they were, a South African private military contractor? Because I mean officially, our government's like, no, we don't approve of that, we don't like that, but...

• 16:50Speaker 06

  Well, there was no State Department in Sierra Leone. There was probably one, uh, case officer and the three of us, that was it.

• 17:03Speaker 06

  One time, uh, I answered the phone and it was Madeleine Albright, I'm like, can I help you? And she goes, what's going on over there? I'm like, I handed the phone off immediately to, to somebody else, I'm like, I'm not explaining the, the war of Sierra Leone to Madeleine Albright.

• 17:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, there was no one there. It was, it was the best war I've ever been in.

• 17:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 17:27Speaker 06

  Um, it was, you know, there was no amateurs.

• 17:32Speaker 06

  One time when we had to go, you know, go rescue the, the folks from the Liberian Embassy, we just showed up at the casino the night before and said, who wants to make some extra money tomorrow? And, uh, we had French, South African, British, you name it. It, it was who's who in the zoo the next morning at the helipad. And we took a rock, drew it out on the, on the hard deck and, uh, went and did it. That's the kind of guys you had back then.

• 18:01Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. How, how did you, um, guard against war tourism and, you know, guys claiming that they had been French Foreign Legion or this or that?

• 18:13Speaker 06

  We saw them, they wouldn't last a day or two.

• 18:15Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, they, they, they would be gone in no time. There were some, always, and they were typically French.

• 18:26Speaker 06

  So. But that was a great time. I mean, it was the nine to five war, too. So that was very polite. Um, you know, we had Russian crews with MI, uh, MI sevens. And, uh, they only flew in the daytime.

• 18:43Speaker 05

  And I gotta ask you then, to like, finish the story, like, how did the Liberian Embassy rescue go down?

• 18:49Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 18:52Speaker 06

  You, you've seen the typical State Department employees sometimes. I remember one come running across the hard deck to, you know how the MI seven or MI eights have those little steps on it? When she hit that step, I thought we were gonna spark rotors. And, uh, it was just like, God bless America, you know? It was, uh, it was entertainment, man. And, uh, we had it all secured and taken care of, but, uh, just you can't make some of this shit up. And, uh, we left the Marines, but we had to come back and get them. And, uh, nah, I wish we'd had videos back then, probably shouldn't have. But if we would have, that would just been a, uh, a reel you would have played and had done beer shots.

• 19:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:41Speaker 05

  And so you, we roll into nine eleven and are you still a kind of working under the same umbrella, the same, you know, security style contract and whatnot?

• 19:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, at the time I had a security company and I had the Black Heart International Logistics Company. So, uh, I would do different Iraq and Afghanistan contracts, you know, with varying roles. Uh, a lot of protection, a lot of, uh, advising and tons of, uh, logistical support. That was the main, the main avenue there.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, we did that for years, did rifle manufacturing. We got into way too many things, but that's kinda, you were chasing the dollar at the time, cause that was the heyday of contracting.

• 20:31Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

• 20:35Speaker 05

  And so, um, were you involved with like Afghanistan as soon as that kicked off and then Iraq as soon as that kicked off? Were you kind of focused on one theater?

• 20:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, I did a quick stint, um, training up the air marshals. They got a whole bunch of us, uh, pistol guys to immediately go out to Artesia and start tuning up the air marshals. So I did that for a couple of months while clearances were getting stood up. Um, soon as that happened, I was, I was in Afghanistan, probably summer of O2. And, uh, starting to do work there for a couple of years before the Iraq war kicked off. But that was a time to be there before it got too crazy. Um, yeah, I was, that was the pleasant time or two, you know, after Iraq kind of time in Afghanistan.

• 21:24Speaker 05

  When you say too crazy, do you mean, uh, too laden with, uh, bureaucracy? Or do you, uh, what do you mean by too crazy? When you say too crazy, do you mean, uh, too like laden with bureaucracy or?

• 21:39Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 21:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 21:41Speaker 06

  And you could, you could get away with anything at the time, you know? If you, you needed a badge, you made the badge. Next slide. You know, you, you just, you got, you got shit done, you know? And then years later, I'm like, we need a new war. This is just obnoxious, you know? And, uh, you just couldn't get anything accomplished.

• 22:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:02Speaker 06

  And, uh, I, I won't participate in that. And, uh, oh hell, speaking of that, I forgot I did seven months in Haiti before that. You talk about not getting anything done. Uh, it was Groundhog Day every day. Um, watching the, uh, charities fleece their pockets, you know? Um, it's just bureaucracy and, and corruption is disgusting. And we, we, both, all of us have seen that too many times.

• 22:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, it was wild. You know, you mentioned like, uh, Bagram and it's wild, you know, seeing, you know, Disney Drive, for instance, go from kind of the Wild West, right, to,

• 22:49Speaker 05

  to people getting chewed out for not wearing safety belts and, you know?

• 22:54Jack Murphy?

  They took the entire garrison overseas.

• 22:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, First Sergeant's out there writing speeding tickets for people on their little gators. Like, it, it's.

• 23:04Speaker 05

  Is like, is, is this, is this war? Is, what's going on here?

• 23:10Speaker 06

  Well, Dave, I think that's how we won it, right?

• 23:13Speaker 05

  Right.

• 23:14Speaker 06

  No, I don't think so.

• 23:16Speaker 05

  Right, yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 06

  Yeah. No, everybody just waits us out because they know our bureaucracy and bullshit will, will do, do their battle for them.

• 23:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 06

  You know, never destroy an, or never interrupt an enemy that's busy destroying himself.

• 23:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, they just wait us out.

• 23:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 06

  And you and I knew that. You knew they were gonna do that.

• 23:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 06

  We're not good at UW.

• 23:40Speaker 05

  No, we don't, we don't, it doesn't brief well. Like, it, it doesn't, it doesn't, the PowerPoints just don't, uh, you know, if you can't talk about how many bodies you stacked, or this or that, who, who want, who cares about it, what village was stabilized? What are the metrics for that?

• 23:58Speaker 06

  No, that's why I love SF, because we can go in there and, and fix all that and people not know we did it.

• 24:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 24:04Speaker 06

  You know, because we'll trick them into it. I don't care how. Trick them, pay them, whatever I need to do.

• 24:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 06

  But we don't have to heavy hammer them all the time. You know, all we did was make rebels. I used to stop the guys all the time for making more rebels.

• 24:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 24:17Speaker 06

  And, uh, we constantly would do it.

• 24:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. So, uh, so you spent, you know, you, uh, you did Haiti, you did Afghanistan, and then I, I'm assuming that with BHI, Iraq kicks off and you guys are involved in that too then?

• 24:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, almost as soon as it, it kicked off, I was over there organizing that, trying to, you know, work with the Brimmer, um, administration, doing all that because they were new to everything also. It's like we hadn't been in a war in a while.

• 24:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, right.

• 24:50Speaker 06

  And, uh, I'm a big SOP guy. I love SOPs, so I was over there pimping how to set stuff up quick. And we already had all the logistical, you know, trail figured out, so it was pretty easy. So I, I scored a couple of details over there, you know, to run those and, uh, you know, helped out with some other details. And just, you know, great guys. I mean, you find any kind of work, you want to stay with the bunch, you know, it's the guys you grew up with in the military.

• 25:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 06

  And if you're gonna get paid to drive around with machine guns with them, it's like, sure, let's go.

• 25:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 12

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• 28:26Speaker 06

  And, I mean, some legends, you know. Now it's funny to see the folks on your podcast once in a while, I'm like, they're heroes.

• 28:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:34Speaker 06

  You know, and folks have no idea what they've really done.

• 28:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I think that, you know, when I went out to the Second Battalion 50th Anniversary, like, one of the young Rangers there, because we've been going like five years now, right? So a young Ranger is like, "Yeah, I watched your show all through high school," which is crazy to me.

• 28:59Speaker 06

  Really?

• 29:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it's like, that's why I went in, like, listening to all these Rangers and all these, you know, soft guys and their stories. And it's the way we would have eaten up, you know, the Mackville Sog and, you know, and the Green Beret and, you know, and then he's, and I'm like, "Oh, that's awesome." And he goes, "Yeah, we haven't done a single combat deployment." I'm like, "Oh, dude, I'm sorry."

• 29:18Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 29:19Speaker 05

  Sorry, bro. Sorry, man.

• 29:21Speaker 06

  That's hard to walk around battalion that way.

• 29:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, right? But, but yeah, you know, it is fascinating, I think, a lot of times, you know.

• 29:32Speaker 06

  I just saw Greg Birch took over. I just saw that little note. Remember him?

• 29:38Jack Murphy?

  He was my Command Sergeant Major at 375.

• 29:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, I think he just took the whole regiment. So.

• 29:45Speaker 05

  What?

• 29:45Speaker 06

  Great guy. Yeah, I just saw it today.

• 29:47Speaker 05

  I mean, he did become the regimental sergeant major, but that was like two thousand and six or seven or something.

• 29:54Speaker 06

  Oh, I might be, I might have hit something wrong. You know, I've been fastened, so.

• 29:58Speaker 05

  Okay, yeah, no, no, no worries.

• 30:00Speaker 06

  TBIs.

• 30:00Speaker 05

  Yeah. Sergeant Major Birch is an amazing guy, though. Um, but he's, he's, he's out there. He's retired now.

• 30:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, good. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that's probably true. Years. I get all those years mixed up. I really do. Cause I still think I'm like twenty nine.

• 30:17Speaker 05

  I, yeah, the same. Same. Yeah. And I think another part of that is,

• 30:26Speaker 05

  you know, I admire people have like solid memories and remember a lot of very specific things, but for me, it's like, kind of like one big green blur, you know?

• 30:34Speaker 06

  Yeah. I have to have somebody else mention something and then I'll, it'll spark me, you know?

• 30:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 06

  But a lot of that I tried to forget. People like, you remember this guy? I'm like, nope, not at all.

• 30:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 06

  Damn sure not their last names, you know?

• 30:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. So what, what did you like? You know, you, when you were in Afghanistan, you thought we need a new war and then you got a new war. You got Iraq. What was your overall impression of the efforts in Afghanistan, in Iraq as time progressed? And as you were not only a witness, but a participant in these wars?

• 31:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's the problem. I was going between them and I used to always call it the bill of two wars. Cause incredibly different tactics.

• 31:21Speaker 05

  Right.

• 31:22Speaker 06

  I mean, there's things you could get away with in Afghanistan. You wouldn't even dare in Iraq.

• 31:26Speaker 05

  Right.

• 31:27Speaker 06

  You know, you'd get a double stacked AT mine under you. So it was just so hard to go back and forth. And shift gears.

• 31:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 06

  Cause I considered Afghanistan as fairly civilized compared to Iraq and Syria.

• 31:44Speaker 06

  Um, so yeah, it was just, we weren't, we weren't ready for prime time on a lot of it, you know? And, uh, just too risk averse. Um, um, there's a time and a place for that. But when, when something's got to get done, you gotta hit them hard, you know?

• 31:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:00Speaker 06

  Those were just two distinctly different wars.

• 32:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 06

  And, uh, they would send us back and forth between them like they were, you know, a, a National Guard weekend, you know? I'm like, this is not cool.

• 32:15Speaker 05

  And then.

• 32:16Speaker 06

  And we still didn't learn, I don't think.

• 32:19Speaker 05

  And then what did you?

• 32:23Speaker 05

  What was your impression, if you had one, of the ROEs as they started, as they changed, as they changed, as they changed?

• 32:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, try to, try to deal that with your host nation, you know? So, you know, if you got your, your host guys helping you on your detail, what's their idea of an ROE?

• 32:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 06

  You know, so you, you're, you're totally put in a position that I don't think's attainable or winnable. And, uh, truthfully, we just kind of ignored it. And, you know, if a tree fell in the woods.

• 33:03Speaker 06

  I learned that in Africa.

• 33:04Speaker 05

  Yeah. You know, you mentioned that like Africa was uh, an interesting wake up call for you, where you tried to take, you know, the, the SF, uh, you know, sort of SOPs into a war with warriors who had been fighting for a long period of time. And they're like, no, like, we tried that 15 years ago or whatever. Well, how was that then taking what you had learned in Africa into Afghanistan and Iraq with, you know, with, uh, US service members or former US service members who were also going on?

• 33:46Jack Murphy?

  You know, RO, not ROEs, but SOPs developed during Vietnam and afterwards.

• 33:52Speaker 06

  Well, I, I think it greatly helped. I mean, I was light years ahead of the guys.

• 33:56Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 06

  Um, I always used to tease them like, don't worry, I remember my first war too.

• 34:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 34:01Speaker 06

  But, um, I, I was boogered up in, uh, Sierra Leone, you know, because I thought I knew my shit. I was just two weeks out of group.

• 34:08Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 06

  And, uh, now here's the funny part. When I was flying into Sierra Leone, I didn't know anything about it. It was two weeks. I didn't have time to do an area study or even read a book. So I'm in, uh, Ivory Coast at a hotel staying to fly the next day. And I'm in a bar eating steak and I look across and I see a team over there getting littered, drinking out of the op fund. I'm like, okay, you know, they got the little bag. Everybody carries the op fund in, you know? So I see them drinking out of it and I finished my meal and I walk over there. I'm like, where are you jackasses from? And they're like, oh, we're third group. We just left Sierra Leone. I'm like, oh, really? Oh, and, uh, they sat down and gave me my intel brief, you know, half littered.

• 34:53Speaker 06

  But they actually, the only time in my life I've heard of such a, an issue, they were ordered to show up at the airfield at like O-Dark thirty and just leave. They were on a FID there. And they left their weapons and commo. Were ordered to. And when I got there the next day, I got their weapons and commo and I got in a helicopter. I flew out to the ocean and I threw it out. So it's the last thing I wanted there, but they left.

• 35:22Speaker 06

  I, I've never in my life heard of such an order.

• 35:24Jack Murphy?

  That's, that's bizarre. Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're saying that they, they didn't like leave it at the embassy. They left that like a team house somewhere.

• 35:32Speaker 06

  There was no embassy.

• 35:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:33Speaker 06

  They left them with my cutout. You know? Yeah, I, I had one thirty sevens. I'm like, dude, I know, I know how to run a one thirty seven, but I know you're not allowed to leave one unattended.

• 35:43Jack Murphy?

  So it was like, it was like, it was like the gardener was, uh, maintaining positive control over the weapons and commo.

• 35:50Speaker 06

  As a case officer.

• 35:53Jack Murphy?

  Well, that's better than, I was gonna say better than nothing.

• 35:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, I couldn't believe it. I'm like, I got AKs and PKs and Mag 58s. I don't need American weapons in Africa.

• 36:05Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 36:06Speaker 06

  How you gonna feed that, you know? So I dumped them in the ocean. I didn't want to have anything to do with it.

• 36:11Jack Murphy?

  Right. Wow. I mean, did they, did they fly that team out commercial and that's why they couldn't travel like that?

• 36:17Speaker 06

  Well, no, they C-130 them, sorry. No, they had C-130 show them up like in the middle of the night, left their host nation.

• 36:24Jack Murphy?

  Dude.

• 36:24Speaker 06

  Very irritated.

• 36:26Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 36:26Speaker 06

  And they showed up in the Ivory Coast and started drinking.

• 36:31Jack Murphy?

  As one does.

• 36:32Speaker 06

  Team back in the day.

• 36:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:36Jack Murphy?

  It, it, it makes you wonder. I mean, it makes you wonder. It makes you wonder like, because that was a State Department decision, right? That's not, nobody, nobody at the group level is saying, hey, leave your sensitive items behind.

• 36:51Speaker 06

  No, never heard of it in my life.

• 36:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you're right. That's, that's something that like the State Department decided without like considering all of the ramifications of like, no, get them out right now.

• 37:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:01Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you're, you're probably right.

• 37:04Speaker 06

  Yeah. No, it was strange. Every day over there, I could write a book about.

• 37:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 06

  Every day. We, no, the best one, this is the best one of the whole trip. We're, we're, me and my buddy, uh, were gassing up the helicopters one day over at the main international airport. You know, they offload on the little stairs because they don't have terminals. And here comes a, a E1 Marine or E2 Marine walking off there with his duffel bag and his greens. I'm like, John, I think he's in the wrong place. And, uh, we go over there and get him. He thought he was going to Liberia. I'm like, well, you're in Sierra Leone actually. And, uh, you can't get there from here. So we kept him for a week. And we made him work with us. And I would love to meet that young Marine and get his story because it would be epic.

• 37:56Speaker 05

  That's wild.

• 37:57Speaker 06

  He didn't want to leave.

• 37:58Speaker 05

  I bet.

• 38:00Speaker 06

  We had him in civilian clothes, carrying a mag 58. Partying every night, flying every day. I would, I don't even know his name. I don't even remember his name.

• 38:12Speaker 05

  I.

• 38:13Speaker 06

  He can call me anytime.

• 38:15Speaker 05

  Did, uh, how did you guys manage? I mean, did he manage to, ob- obviously like whoever was waiting for him in Liberia thought he was AWOL.

• 38:25Speaker 06

  Well, we, we called the embassy.

• 38:26Speaker 05

  So you got, you hooked him up?

• 38:28Speaker 06

  We took him later.

• 38:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:29Speaker 06

  We, we weren't going there all the time.

• 38:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 06

  It was like a week, week and a half later, we made a special trip and took him to the embassy down there before we evacuated it.

• 38:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:38Speaker 06

  So, yeah, yeah, we, we, we let them know.

• 38:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 06

  Cause we, we talked to the embassy all the time down there, cause they were scared.

• 38:48Speaker 05

  That's wild. Yeah, I'd love to hear that kid's story. I mean, he's not, obviously not a kid now.

• 38:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 06

  No, yeah.

• 38:55Speaker 05

  Forty, fifty, yeah.

• 38:57Speaker 06

  Twenty-five years later.

• 38:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:59Speaker 06

  But yeah, I, he's, he's, I bet he's a, a legend in the Corps.

• 39:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 39:05Speaker 06

  Nobody will believe him though.

• 39:06Speaker 05

  No, that's the thing. Nobody's gonna believe that shit at all. That's the kind of thing people lie about all the time.

• 39:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 39:13Speaker 05

  And it's like.

• 39:14Speaker 06

  He's the real deal.

• 39:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. That's funny.

• 39:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that's great. That, that would make like a great movie or something.

• 39:20Speaker 06

  Oh, I can still see him getting off the plane right now. I mean, he's comical. Both our jaws dropped. We're like, what the fuck is that? It's a Marine.

• 39:31Speaker 06

  Flawless.

• 39:32Jack Murphy?

  Who, to, uh, put a little bit of, of like a, a finger on it, I mean, we, we had this conversation about how you learned so much from that conflict and working over there. Like what were, like some specific like lessons learned that you kind of carried over into subsequent deployments? Um, but what, whether it's like operational planning or reconnaissance or tactics?

• 39:53Speaker 06

  Tactics, I mean helicopter use. I mean, we were getting shot at all the time. And you know, oh, we'll do a speedball. They're like, don't you dare do a speedball. You land, you land as quick as you can, unload that bird and get the hell out of there, you know? And yeah, just helicopter operations under fire are different than when you're not under fire.

• 40:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 40:17Speaker 06

  Um, you need to be very competent. You need to know how the doors work. Everything works. You need to know your load plan. You don't have time to sit there and figure it out. And that's the choppers we were using in Afghanistan, too, and some in Iraq. So I, I was, I was a pro at the MIs.

• 40:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 06

  Um, cause then things can lift anything if you have a little bit of runway.

• 40:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Uh, Dimitri, our producer is asking us to talk about what a speedball is. Do you want to answer that, Eric? Or do you want me to?

• 40:47Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, that was our, our resupply. They prepackage a, a resupply of ammo, food and water and essentially throw it out of the helicopter.

• 40:55Jack Murphy?

  It's, it's usually like MREs and.

• 40:57Speaker 07

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• 41:12Speaker 08

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• 41:23Speaker 07

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• 41:28Speaker 09

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• 41:34Speaker 07

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• 42:23Speaker 05

  Water and ammunition stuffed into a duffel bag, right? And the bird just comes down, hovers 10 feet off the deck, they push it out, and then they fly away.

• 42:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. Which makes a very good target.

• 42:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, they're like, safer to land, drop it off, and then take off again.

• 42:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 06

  Because we had a lot of SA7 problems over there. And, you know, they weren't competent, which was gold. But there's always lucky.

• 42:50Speaker 05

  Right, right, the golden BB, you know?

• 42:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, totally. I mean, it was comical. Two or three of us could make 300 or 400 of them run away. And that make you feel good, but you're like, wow, what if they actually knew what they were doing?

• 43:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:05Speaker 06

  They would annihilate us. But they were pretty much all on drugs and just savages. A lot of savagery.

• 43:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, they were doing some nasty stuff at that time. You guys and the executive outcomes guys did the world a favor by beating them back.

• 43:24Speaker 06

  Unheard of. I mean, you just don't even want to know what they were doing over there.

• 43:29Speaker 05

  Yeah. What, you know, you mentioned the MI being an airframe used in both in Africa and Iraq and Afghanistan. Do you feel as though the US should have given that a harder look? Especially like, especially like in Afghanistan with the elevation issues? You know, and a lot of our birds having issues with lift and whatnot?

• 43:55Speaker 06

  Maintenance. Maintenance, we had no down days with those. One time, we, we needed a new engine. So they found one in a warehouse that had been in a warehouse for like ten years, put it in. One day we needed a windshield, they flew out to a shot down helicopter. Pulled the windshield off, put a new one on and we flew off. I mean, we had zero down hours.

• 44:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 06

  Everything's hydraulic, or not hydraulic, cable.

• 44:22Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:23Speaker 06

  And they were beasts. I, I think we should have them a hundred percent.

• 44:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 06

  They're a beast and they cost nothing compared to anything we have.

• 44:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 06

  And if you could fill it up and you had a little bit of runway, you could take off.

• 44:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, great helicopter.

• 44:45Speaker 05

  So, you know, was there anything in particular that happened in either Afghanistan or Iraq? That, uh, that, you know, you want to talk about any cool stories, funny stories? Anything that kind of like triggers you at, at times?

• 45:03Speaker 06

  Well, what triggered me was that pullout.

• 45:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, well.

• 45:07Speaker 06

  That was astonishing.

• 45:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:10Speaker 06

  Uh, you, you couldn't have done that any worse.

• 45:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:13Speaker 06

  You know, and, and I know some of the people that were involved with that, you know? And I'm like, you made that decision? Astonishing, while we still don't have Bogrom, which I hear they're gonna give it back. Which, who knows what that deal is?

• 45:25Speaker 05

  Right.

• 45:26Speaker 06

  Um, you know, just incredibly bad. And I've been talking to some of the young kids that were over there during that. And they're having problems.

• 45:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:35Speaker 06

  Cause what they saw was atrocious.

• 45:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 06

  And, uh, our boys in the tiger stripes were the only ones that kept that airfield from falling.

• 45:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:45Speaker 06

  And, uh, without those guys, that host nation unit there. It would have been really bad, even though it was pretty horrendous.

• 45:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 06

  So, uh, I, I try to pigeonhole all that stuff. I mean, we had great guys, but I think we lost them for no reason. You know, I've been to too many of the Arlington funerals there. I'm like, this was bullshit, you know? Uh, I, I wanted to leave Afghanistan in oh five.

• 46:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:11Speaker 06

  Cause I'm like, we're done.

• 46:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:12Speaker 06

  Like we're, we're, you, you're not taking Afghanistan. Come on.

• 46:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 06

  You're an asshole to think you are.

• 46:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:18Speaker 06

  And, uh, you know, I, I'm in to get in and get out. You know, and then just have the grids, just keep sending JDAMs later. I don't care. But, uh, a lot of this stuff, I think we perpetrated. So I'm, I'm kind of against the whole Ukraine angle and the Yemen angle and all that. I'm like, we're making messes out of the place.

• 46:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 06

  And I'll, I'll take their arguments on that. I'll, I'll take them to task.

• 46:45Speaker 05

  I think the, um, you know, the, it, it wasn't until we had, um,

• 46:54Speaker 05

  Frode's ex-wife, that was the first time I think I ever heard the, the term moral injury.

• 47:00Jack Murphy?

  She's gonna be back at the end of the month.

• 47:02Speaker 05

  Fantastic. Yeah.

• 47:04Jack Murphy?

  With, with a bunch of people who got the, uh, TBI legislation written into the NDAA this last year.

• 47:10Speaker 05

  It's fantastic.

• 47:11Jack Murphy?

  She'll, she'll be here on like the, like, I think the 26th. I'll, I'll, I'll check it out, but yeah, later this month.

• 47:17Speaker 05

  But, um, um, and, and, but that was the first time I had ever heard the term moral injury. And I think that that is a very good term, uh, or very a, a precise term for what a lot of veterans and people involved with Afghanistan felt with that pullout.

• 47:39Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I know you're gonna have to do it, but do it like you actually are adults and you plan something.

• 47:46Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 47:47Speaker 06

  Uh, it was, it was just obnoxiously embarrassing.

• 47:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:50Speaker 06

  And gave everybody else a green light, you know, like you can't even leave a place. You can't invade it.

• 47:57Speaker 05

  Right. Right.

• 47:59Jack Murphy?

  Uh, Dee says it's April 24th is when, uh, Kate Rockline and

• 48:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:04Jack Murphy?

  some of the other folks, uh, who were involved in that legislation will be in here.

• 48:08Speaker 05

  And, and I'm sorry, Kate, like for, you know, you, you're not, you're somebody more than Frode's ex-wife. That's just, I

• 48:15Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no, I get it.

• 48:16Speaker 05

  We couldn't recall your last name and I was, I'm sorry for that. Um, but, um, but yeah, it's so

• 48:25Speaker 05

  what was, uh, so barring what triggers you, I, I shouldn't have said that, but are there any like, um,

• 48:35Speaker 05

  Other memories that you'd care to share that that maybe aren't, you know, as traumatic? You know, I'm sure there were good times too, right?

• 48:43Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, it was great times. I mean, you know, when you get to work with the guys that are solid. I mean, that's what everybody misses more than any of this PTSD stuff, I think.

• 48:54Speaker 05

  Right.

• 48:54Speaker 06

  Is just working with competent guys under pressure.

• 48:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:58Speaker 06

  With with real world issues.

• 49:00Speaker 05

  Right.

• 49:01Speaker 06

  You know, we're not used to just sitting around on a park bench in a park. You know, and I think that causes more of us issues than anything.

• 49:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:11Speaker 06

  But no, there was great stuff over there, but a lot of it was.

• 49:17Speaker 06

  You know, bookmarked by being limited by their either risk aversion or incompetence or pretty much ignorance.

• 49:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:28Speaker 06

  They didn't know how this kind of warfare was.

• 49:31Speaker 05

  Right.

• 49:32Speaker 06

  And that makes people scared. And that means, you know, the best times was is when when when the boss would say, hey, come back in a week or two. Roger that.

• 49:42Speaker 05

  Right.

• 49:42Speaker 06

  I'll I'll find something to do. You know, and you go around and you you sort things out. Drop off all the phones to a local O D A and do it again.

• 49:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 06

  And, you know, it's just big boy rules early.

• 49:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:56Speaker 06

  Nowadays, I don't think the boys are having that much fun.

• 49:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 06

  I think there's there's too many people watching and you're you're just too limited, but back early. You could actually, you know, be a professional.

• 50:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 06

  And look at a situation and go, this is how we should handle this. Two other people agree, you go and do it.

• 50:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 06

  And, you know, there's there's nothing wrong with that, but that's that's a lot of freedom. And they trust you for your judgment. I always said that you're not you're not paying me to do the job, you're paying me to have good judgment.

• 50:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:27Speaker 06

  And, you know, I think we always did a good job there. I mean, you've had plenty of the other guys on here. I'm sure I'm sure they'll say or have said the same thing. And that that's what I remember, you know, there's good, good jobs, bad jobs. But being trusted with that is always impressive.

• 50:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:48Speaker 06

  Nobody knows.

• 50:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 05

  When did, uh, when did things start winding down for you personally? And, and was there a reason that they did?

• 51:06Speaker 06

  That was its own special nightmare. So while I was doing all those trips, I was still running those other companies. So you talk about over tasking to, to deal with your own anxiety or traumas.

• 51:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:20Speaker 06

  You know, I was working myself into the grave.

• 51:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:23Speaker 06

  And, uh, today's my son's birthday, but I remember that little jackass. One day I had sold the company in 2013 and two days later I got divorce papers. And I'm like, what the fuck's going on here? My son walks by, he goes, Dad, you didn't see that coming? I'm like, no, obviously, you know, supposed to hook a brother up here, been a little busy. And, uh, yeah, it just, you know, you know, it doesn't come in threes, it comes in piles. Sometimes. So I got out of the contracting, sold that company. Um, and just had to, had to rebuild everything, you know? I was a bitter man for a while, hence you'll notice that in the book. I admit it.

• 52:07Speaker 06

  Um, but you know, there's just, we didn't understand any of this, uh. I don't, I don't even like the term PTSD. It's just when you get disappointed. You know, you don't need to know the reason you're disappointed. But when you work like a slave and then everything crumbles down, you're like, how and why did that happen? You know, but that's just the life lesson. You know, you gotta roll with it.

• 52:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:35Speaker 06

  And, uh, years later, it makes total sense. Now, I have no problem with it. You know, it was a very hard lesson, but I learned a whole lot to help a lot of other people with.

• 52:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:44Speaker 06

  For the time I was like fucking near ambush. And, uh, just kept running from ambush to ambush.

• 52:53Speaker 05

  So let's talk about the book a little bit. I mean, let's, if we can, let's start with your journey. Um, when, you know, whether, because we're talking about so many different things, right? We're talking about post-traumatic stress, we're talking about operator syndrome, we're talking about, um, not being around the guys, living on the edge with this pure mission anymore. We're talking about TBIs, like, there's such a, a morass, a stew of stuff that's combined. How do you pull it apart? And it's also insidious that sometimes, like, we don't even realize we're going through it, right?

• 53:35Speaker 05

  Until somebody else, until somebody else goes, hey, like, that's not normal.

• 53:43Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, these days I can ID a guy by just looking at him.

• 53:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 06

  And I'll sit him down, and I'm like, hey, talk to me. And I'll get him into treatment immediately. And people that I have no, I don't, I don't know them from Adam, but I can, I can see it like reading a book.

• 53:59Speaker 05

  Just like the affect?

• 54:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's intuition or something, I don't know, but I can see it in a guy's eyes. You know, they're just, they're just dead, you know? And I can turn them around pretty quick. I mean, I, I think I can, I'm, you know, tooting my own horn. But, you know, I've always wrote books because I hate relearning something. So in, in all units I was in, I would write SOPs that I wasn't asked to write. I'm like, I don't care, you know, we're gonna write the breaching SOP or the, I wrote a JSOP for, uh, First Battalion and the 353rd, you know, the MH53s. Because I'm like, we're a joint unit.

• 54:44Speaker 06

  No one knows how to do repelling ops, or resupply ops, or jump op, you know? We just didn't have a manual on it. I'm like stunned. We have to have an SOP on everything. You know, and I've done tons of the weapons manuals, because I despise the old FM's with pencil drawn guns. You know, so I redid all that for a lot of the different organizations. But with this one, these were, I took my notes, because I don't want to recross bridges.

• 55:11Speaker 05

  Right.

• 55:12Speaker 06

  And I just kept writing my own notes.

• 55:14Speaker 05

  Right.

• 55:15Speaker 06

  And I kept, I think it kept my busy mind good to go too, but I want to be able to always hand something to somebody else if I don't have time to explain it. So then this thing turned into a beast. I mean, it's 500 freaking pages without one picture. So, um, I, I just want guys to have a place as a reference book to get the, the, the quick on it and then detailed search on their own, you know? They don't have to read the whole book. They can read a couple paragraphs.

• 55:48Speaker 05

  Well, and that's, I mean, and that's the thing is that the book is, it's not, it's not laid out like a self-help book. It's, it's laid out so I can go, you know, in alphabetical order, like by, and I can go, uh, post-traumatic stress, let me look it up. And then a list of, you know, and all, all the different things, but.

• 56:06Jack Murphy?

  That, that's the book they should give guys when they're ETSing.

• 56:09Speaker 06

  I know. It's a transition book.

• 56:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:12Speaker 06

  Because in the back, I, uh, I have all the reference books I read for this. I mean, I read, I don't even know how many freaking books to, to steal this information from. Um, so I want them to look in the back, find the book and then go for it. But, you know, uh, I remember a Marine commandant a long time ago said, put your TM's and FM's by the bathroom. And, uh, more education through more defecation. I was like, that's moronically simple but true, you know? So they're just like a, a one bathroom trip vignette of each subject.

• 56:46Speaker 05

  And you know, and

• 56:47Speaker 06

  So if that's too much, I can't help you.

• 56:49Speaker 05

  Well, and, and honestly, that's a good point, not to minimize this book in any way. But this book is great bathroom reading. Because, because you don't, there, there, there's no, like, there's no, oh, where was I last time? Like, whether you could just open it up and go, oh, niacin. And just start reading about niacin and, oh, fuck, like, this might be something I want to look in, you know? It, it's, it's, it's great for that, you know, um, it's a great reference.

• 57:20Speaker 06

  Our guys are smart, but they still have short attention spans.

• 57:23Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 57:24Speaker 06

  You know, it's just the way the times are right now with these damn telephones.

• 57:28Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 57:28Speaker 06

  So, yeah, I wrote it that way, you know, and I really wanted to write the real self-help book. But I ran into so many of these that I would need to explain so much, that book would have been diluted. So I wanted to write this one first and writing the other one that I actually wanted to write years ago. You know, and how I'm doing it and what I do today, what I do this week, what I do that month, you know? Like, sit out here and be thirsty.

• 57:57Speaker 05

  So, Eric, let's, let's, if you don't mind, let's like, let's talk about like, your journey. Did you know, at what point did it come to your awareness that, whether it was post-traumatic stress? Whether it was TBIs, whether it was, you know, moral injury, that, that something was off kilter?

• 58:19Speaker 06

  Well, it was an example I saw.

• 58:23Speaker 06

  I was like maybe a nineteen-year-old, you know, in the guard there and one of the old Vietnam guys took me hunting one day. So we're out there hunting and I come around and I see him sitting over there on a log, just crying his eyes out. I didn't know what the fuck was going on. So I didn't know what to do. I just pulled back, waited until he settled down, you know, half an hour later and I walked over like nothing happened. I had no idea. I'd never seen anything in my life. And he was an old hundred and first and SF guy, you know, hard, hard fighting guy, hamburger hill guy. And I never saw it again. And then one day, I took my son hunting. He was like one or two and he fell asleep. And I broke down like a bitch. And I'm like, what is going on here?

• 59:08Speaker 06

  And that's when I started to talk to the old guys. Said, hey, what, what the hell is going on here, man? And I didn't believe him for a long time.

• 59:18Speaker 06

  You know, but it's just, there's no, there's no easy way, you know, you're, you're in it or you're out it.

• 59:24Speaker 05

  What, what did, what did the old timers tell you? Like, how was, I think it's very interesting because of their generation and they didn't have access to all the treatments we have.

• 59:32Speaker 06

  Right.

• 59:33Speaker 05

  The way they looked at it or dealt with it, um, or lived with it is maybe a little bit different than us. I'm just curious to hear what you learned from them.

• 59:41Speaker 06

  It wasn't anything I would give as advice.

• 59:46Speaker 06

  Just suck it up. It'll get better.

• 59:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 06

  Drink, um, ignore it. No, it was horrible. I mean, they, they had no way to deal with it.

• 59:54Speaker 05

  Right.

• 59:55Speaker 06

  You know, here, here they had the VFW where you had cheap beers. Well, that's a great idea. Let's all have issues and then go drink until we're littered and not spend much.

• 1:00:05Speaker 05

  And, you know, and, you know, we talk about the moral injury of the withdrawal from Afghanistan. But regardless of that, we lived in an age, or we live in an age where probably because of the shame of the way Vietnam veterans were treated, everybody, regardless of whether they believe it or not, everybody is very quick to say, thank you for your service. Right? So when you, when you talk about

• 1:00:35Speaker 06

  It means nothing though.

• 1:00:36Speaker 05

  When, when you talk about Vietnam veterans, you're talking about

• 1:00:41Speaker 05

  That wasn't a thing and they and you want you want to talk about moral injury. You're talking about coming back to a culture that that was very against what you were doing there. And and even if people were against what we were doing in Iraq or Afghanistan, they still want to they don't want to. It's not personal. It's like, no, thank you. I appreciate what you did. I just don't agree. But they didn't even have that, right?

• 1:01:09Speaker 06

  Correct. Yeah, no, it had to be the worst.

• 1:01:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:11Speaker 06

  Had to be the worst, but I don't like the superficial stuff. I mean, I've had a lot of people go, Eric, what do you need? How can I help?

• 1:01:19Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:01:19Speaker 06

  Those are the those are the supporters you need, you know? And I've been amazed by that, you know, and and I've gotten a lot of my buddies help that way. You know, I'll call those same people up and go, hey, I got a buddy. He this has to be done. And they won't even flinch. They just, what does he need?

• 1:01:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Speaker 06

  You know, so it's so much better now. And and part of the pisser is, I mean, there's forty five thousand veterans organizations now. So it's like, where does a guy even go? So that's the part I have to write a little better in the book. I'm going to do an annex on it.

• 1:01:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Speaker 06

  Because where does a guy start? You know, and most of these foundations only do one thing.

• 1:01:58Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:01:59Speaker 06

  So if you don't need that one thing, they don't help you. I'm like, well, that's the wrong answer, you know, and in the front of the new edition of this, I I put in there like, hey, if you're going to help guys. This is how you have to triage it, you know, just don't do it to feel good.

• 1:02:14Speaker 05

  Right. So so let's talk about if you you're okay talking about it, let's talk about your journey and the triage because again. We are talking about post traumatic stress and TBIs and opera. Like there there are so many different things going on, right? And how you know, we talked about, you know, how many door breaches we've all eaten on these direct actions.

• 1:02:39Speaker 06

  Hundreds.

• 1:02:40Speaker 05

  Just and and and the effect of that TBI and where does the TBI end and the post traumatic start? And and and how do you pull it apart and how do you treat this multi? Not only multi symptomatic, but multi origin, right? This multi.

• 1:03:00Speaker 05

  Um, cause.

• 1:03:02Speaker 06

  It was complex, it was very complex, so.

• 1:03:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:05Speaker 06

  And that's where there was no path, you know?

• 1:03:07Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:03:07Speaker 06

  And that's where I've kind of guinea pigged myself on so many of these different modalities. As kind of a reason to keep kicking, you know? Because uh, you get wore out, because some of these modalities, if you get them out of order, it actually is worse than if you didn't do them. Because it gives you hope. And then it doesn't work.

• 1:03:30Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:03:30Speaker 06

  So now you're like, holy shit, I just wasted forty-five days in Mur. Thirty minutes a day, five days a week. And I don't feel any.

• 1:03:40Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:03:42Speaker 06

  It really makes you go, who the hell's running this, you know? So I think what I've been trying to do is to figure out a triage method to teach guys. See, I still got my speech impediment. But uh, I'm going to a different brain treatment center uh, next month. For an actual whole month. So I'm still writing the triage protocol. But what I've learned recently, and it's, it's hard to, it's hard to nail that, Dave. Um. But what I've discovered recently is you have to realize your consciousness. And that, in my suspect, in my view of what happened is, we're just put into this meat suit for this trip.

• 1:04:26Speaker 06

  And I think that helped me a lot going, okay, well, I'll get to do this again somewhere else. I just hope I don't show up in Haiti or somewhere. And. And it lets you go, okay, I understand. Then I gotta fix my reality, how do I change what's good and bad in my reality that I get to choose? Then now how do I fix the body? Because we've damaged it so much. And there's breaches and SPG nines and mortars and IEDs.

• 1:04:56Speaker 06

  There's no way around it. You know, you're you're not tough enough, toughen out overpressure.

• 1:05:00Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:05:01Speaker 06

  Um, a- and I'm finding some of these modalities work, but I think we're doing them in the wrong orders. So that's why I want to finish these last couple. And then really be harddicked about forcing these organizations to do it in a triage manner. Cause these guys have to know that there's there's light at the end of the tunnel. It's not just, we're sending you to one. You know, it's like some of these, they'll send you fishing for a weekend. It doesn't fix a TBI.

• 1:05:30Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:05:30Speaker 06

  You know?

• 1:05:31Jack Murphy?

  What what do you, what do you see as the triage order? Cause like I, I remember talking to one person at one point who told me that they found with veterans, the first thing they have to treat is the substance abuse. Because that will, that will kill them right off. That's the thing that's gonna kill you first, right?

• 1:05:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, and that's where I've been lucky. I don't smoke, drink, I don't do any of that. You know, I'm pretty boring. But yeah, if you don't do that, you're boogered. You you can't get a Gaida. Cause you constant inflammation and I call it a daily detox. You know, we, we have so many chemicals in us or heavy metals in us or, or just shitty food. You can't get the brain to work right if it's constantly inflamed. And, uh, I mean, do you think how many times you sucked up an RPG exhaust? None of that's good for you.

• 1:06:20Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:06:21Speaker 06

  You know? I remember a breach in Okinawa one time where we used FLSC, which is a, a shaped charge, but it's lead encased. And it's, it's vaporizes into lead and I'm like, shouldn't we put our mask on? And they're like, hey, shut up, new guy. Just run through the breach.

• 1:06:35Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:06:36Speaker 06

  I'm like, freaking lead.

• 1:06:38Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:06:38Speaker 06

  It's, it's yellow.

• 1:06:39Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:06:40Speaker 06

  And, uh, so it took me two years to detox heavy metals and chemicals.

• 1:06:44Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Yeah. How many times you run shoot houses, right? And, and like the, like it's not, the fumes and, and the toxins aren't going anywhere.

• 1:06:55Speaker 06

  Yep. Yeah, you bang any house, you you imagine what you're gonna smell in there.

• 1:07:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's astonishing, but I think detox is critical. But that is not cheap. I mean, you have to do a blood detox. You gotta do, you know, your muscle tissues, your lymphatic system. And that's where I harp in this book, the lymph system. If we can clean up the lymph system, we won't get sick.

• 1:07:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:07:23Speaker 06

  We'll be able to detox quickly. People, I mean, I argue with doctors that don't even understand the lymph system. And I'm just like, whatever.

• 1:07:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:07:32Speaker 06

  You know, but that's where I start. And if you can't do that, the rest really doesn't work.

• 1:07:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:07:39Speaker 06

  Because if you're in constant inflammation, the brain, you know, you'll create a cytokine storm and you'll just be overwhelmed by emotions that your limbic system is just crushing. You know, you can't function. So how can you make a good decision on who you need to call?

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• 1:09:22Speaker 06

  For help, when your limbic system is so out of balance.

• 1:09:25Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:09:26Speaker 06

  You have to have somebody walk by and go, hey, stop.

• 1:09:28Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:09:29Speaker 06

  Let me help you.

• 1:09:29Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:09:30Speaker 06

  And we're bad about that. You know that.

• 1:09:33Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, and I think that

• 1:09:41Speaker 05

  for a lot of people that all the, all of the things that, that is, is effective are also the things that keep, that keep them from like, you know, getting help, right? That, that you might have resources or you might have people to reach out to, but

• 1:10:01Speaker 06

  They won't.

• 1:10:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:03Speaker 06

  Yeah. I've had to intervene too many times.

• 1:10:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:05Speaker 06

  Because I wish somebody would have intervened with me.

• 1:10:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 06

  And grabbed me by the hair.

• 1:10:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 06

  You know, because I had tons of my buddies and your buddies too, Dave, that, that we worked together for years and nobody said anything.

• 1:10:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, we knew something was wrong. But we all just let everybody go.

• 1:10:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:23Speaker 06

  Because we're tough guys. And I don't do that anymore. I'll sit somebody down and say, hey, this is what I think. And if you blow me off, you blow me off. If not, we start working on it.

• 1:10:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Speaker 06

  I'll find you help.

• 1:10:36Speaker 05

  So what was it for you? Was there a moment, was there a thing like, like, did somebody grab you? Were you, was?

• 1:10:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Speaker 05

  How did you?

• 1:10:48Speaker 06

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:10:48Speaker 05

  What happened? If you don't mind.

• 1:10:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was, I was training a great client out in Montana. Every summer I would teach shooting out there. She's like a Katherine Hepburn type, you know, you don't mess with her. And she'd come down the range one day and I was gonna do some shooting and she goes, you're not, you're not okay, Eric. I said, oh, I'm fine, man, you know? She goes, Eric, shut up. You're gonna go see my doctor in San Francisco. Uh, figure it out. And I went down there and, uh, full boat, you know, whatever he needed was the order. And it took me weeks to, to just start the detox program on the heavy metals and doing the brain evaluations and doing the, you know, my balance was boogered up, you know, uh, center of gravity was off.

• 1:11:35Speaker 06

  Just so many things we, we ignore and we, we, uh,

• 1:11:41Speaker 06

  Make up the difference and don't know that it's bad. And it was just very realistic. And one day he gave me this little little gel pill to put under my tongue. He goes, come back in tomorrow morning, put that in your tongue tonight. I said, okay. I come back next day. He goes, how you feel? I'm like, dude, I feel really weird. And I go down through these symptoms. And he goes, Eric, I hate to break it to you, but that's what normal feels like. I'm like, oh, okay. He goes, when's the last time that happened? I'm like, can't remember. He goes, okay, well, this is going to take a little longer. And yeah, it was oxytocin.

• 1:12:20Speaker 05

  Really?

• 1:12:20Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was about as

• 1:12:25Speaker 05

  Just

• 1:12:26Speaker 06

  jarring as you can get.

• 1:12:27Speaker 05

  Just, just the natural bonding chemical of the brain.

• 1:12:31Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 1:12:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:12:32Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:12:35Speaker 06

  Yeah. So that, that got me on it. I mean, as Dr. Azalino, he's, I mentioned him right up front of the book, you know, thanking him for teaching me all this stuff and then putting up with me because I was a bear back then. I mean, I was rough. And he has some great modalities, but you know, he's only one man.

• 1:12:54Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:12:55Speaker 06

  But he has a great clinic out in San Francisco and he'll tune you up quick. I mean, I just sent one of my buds out there that, you know, had some Dane Bramage. You don't remember the old Saturday Night Live with that one, but Dane Bramage. And miraculous change in two weeks, just incredible improvements.

• 1:13:18Jack Murphy?

  And so how did the book come about? Like you must have reached a point in your own treatment that you felt like you wanted to share some of these experiences with others, right?

• 1:13:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah. As I said, I always write everything down, whether I publish it or not, who knows? I've got tons of books I've never published.

• 1:13:36Speaker 06

  You know, they're for me. And if I have a friend that needs that information, I'll give it to them personally. But this one, I just wanted There's so much out there, but I don't see it in one place. I don't think that's annoying. So, you know, I've always had a book team to back me up, you know, I contract them so they know when I hand them a pile of something, they're gonna come out with a book. And I said, we're doing this one. And I would love to illustrate it, but I just keep writing more subjects. I think the subjects are more important than an illustration. So, you know, I just want, you can grab one book and hopefully as a veteran or some one of that type

• 1:14:18Speaker 06

  can see the subject they need to learn about and then start peeling the onion.

• 1:14:26Jack Murphy?

  It's awesome. Where can people go to find it?

• 1:14:29Speaker 06

  Oh, it's on Amazon. Yeah, it's Amazon. Yeah, easy to find.

• 1:14:33Speaker 05

  Uh, the book again, for those of you who may not have caught it is Fire Support, A Veteran's Guide to Health, Healing, and Life Beyond Service.

• 1:14:43Speaker 05

  Looks like an FM, uh, so it's, um, you know. It's very familiar territory for many.

• 1:14:54Speaker 05

  Uh, we have it linked, right?

• 1:14:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, the link will be in the description.

• 1:14:59Speaker 05

  So, uh, so, you know, you talk about, I know you, you, uh... You know, I don't know if you want to talk about what we did before the show, like the thing that you felt helped you the most.

• 1:15:14Speaker 05

  But how do people pull apart or where do they start when it comes to, is this

• 1:15:24Speaker 05

  post-traumatic stress, is this TBIs, is this, like, I'm feeling like this, you know?

• 1:15:33Speaker 05

  Whether it's, you know, I can't get out of bed or I'm gonna pull this dude out of his car, uh, you know, for honking at me, like, it comes in a lot of different ways, right?

• 1:15:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, I've done all that.

• 1:15:44Speaker 05

  Yeah. Um, but, but...

• 1:15:48Speaker 05

  Where would you say people start? Men and women, you know, who are, and you know, civilians go through a lot of this too. Maybe, maybe not, you know, you know, obviously, they probably don't have a lot of overpressure injuries. You know, uh, you know, mixing in with that post-traumatic stress. But where do people start? Like when they?

• 1:16:11Speaker 06

  I, I think relationships. I mean, the, the, those closest to you see it.

• 1:16:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:19Speaker 06

  But they don't know what to do about it.

• 1:16:21Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:16:22Speaker 06

  I mean, I used to all the time. I mean, when I was coming back from those trips, I would always force the office to, uh, let me stay in like Romania a week or Germany for a week so I wouldn't go straight home.

• 1:16:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Speaker 06

  Cause I couldn't do it. We, we were going home far too quickly.

• 1:16:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Speaker 06

  Um, World War II, you know, they can take a ship back. They see you in a couple of months.

• 1:16:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:45Speaker 06

  Um, but nowadays hindsight, I, I saw it all back then and the folks that worked with me saw it too. Once again, it was like, it was like that Vietnam mentality of, eh, it'll work out or, you know, he's just cranky. You know, and that's not it at all. You know, it's, it's, that's the beginning of it. And you have to identify that and go, okay, hey, what's causing that? But if you're doing that and it's a malfunctioning limbic system, you're not consciously doing it.

• 1:17:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:17:17Speaker 06

  You know, and that's why I don't fault guys for that. You know, I'm like, they're not doing that on purpose. Who, who the hell would do that on purpose?

• 1:17:23Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:17:25Speaker 06

  And, and that's the harmful part that, you know, it, it takes a long time to rebuild those relationships. Once you get better, but they have to realize you didn't wake up saying, hey, I'm gonna be a cranky asshole today and piss everybody off.

• 1:17:40Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:17:40Speaker 06

  That's just not normal. Hate to break it to you, you know, I perfected it, but you know, it wasn't on purpose, you know? Hell, the name of the company was Black Heart International. You, you don't pick your own call signs, you know?

• 1:17:54Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:17:54Speaker 06

  So, figure that one out.

• 1:17:56Jack Murphy?

  That's the BH, BHI that we're talking about?

• 1:17:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:18:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Jack Murphy?

  Aren't these Black Heart International?

• 1:18:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's my books right there, man. Where'd you get them?

• 1:18:08Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:09Speaker 06

  Those are old ones.

• 1:18:11Speaker 06

  All those are ancient, dude. That's like Model 1.

• 1:18:14Jack Murphy?

  My earplug out.

• 1:18:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's the old models, man.

• 1:18:19Jack Murphy?

  Sorry, Eric. I had to plug myself back in. I love these manuals, man.

• 1:18:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Jack Murphy?

  These are great.

• 1:18:24Speaker 06

  I did those a long time ago.

• 1:18:25Jack Murphy?

  Dude, these are like-

• 1:18:26Speaker 06

  I've got like forty of them out now.

• 1:18:28Jack Murphy?

  Are there really?

• 1:18:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, I did all the weapons systems.

• 1:18:31Jack Murphy?

  I got the RPG, the PK, uh, the AK, the Makarov, and, uh, and the Dishka. These are like the best manuals out there, man. I didn't know this was you.

• 1:18:47Speaker 06

  Dave, those are the ones Texas made me write in six fucking weeks.

• 1:18:53Jack Murphy?

  These are great. And people can still find these out there?

• 1:18:58Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:18:59Jack Murphy?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 1:19:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, I've- Jack, I've probably got forty of those now. I mean, I'm down to- All kinds of little handbooks. Panona and I did a bunch of the little flip handbooks for like M4 Glock and all that.

• 1:19:14Jack Murphy?

  Dude, I'm gonna-

• 1:19:14Speaker 06

  They used to sell by the bushel.

• 1:19:15Jack Murphy?

  I'm gonna go look for them. Um-

• 1:19:17Speaker 06

  Texas sucked ass, though.

• 1:19:20Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, dude-

• 1:19:21Speaker 06

  Dave, you know how many copies they buy?

• 1:19:24Speaker 06

  One set. Seriously? They're using the same set still.

• 1:19:30Jack Murphy?

  Dude, for folks out there, like, I've been through all the FM's and everything myself and- Including the ones that, the newer ones from Special Warfare Center, which are not bad, but those ones, the Black Heart International ones are the best. Like, legit, full-color photographs, easy-to-understand instructions and diagrams. They're the best ones made. That's no bullshit.

• 1:19:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, I just got tired of all the bad ones out there.

• 1:19:56Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:56Speaker 06

  And I'm like, you know, I have a camera. Watch this. And I owned all the guns, because we used to teach a lot of the foreign weapons courses. And, uh, yeah, those are great books, man. I like them. But, uh, we did a full NATO set and a full COMBLOC set.

• 1:20:12Jack Murphy?

  Fuck, yeah. Awesome.

• 1:20:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:20:14Jack Murphy?

  I'm gonna go look for them right now after we get out of here.

• 1:20:16Speaker 06

  Those.

• 1:20:20Jack Murphy?

  Super cool.

• 1:20:21Speaker 06

  I'll, I'll send you some more.

• 1:20:23Jack Murphy?

  Okay. Um, what else do we want to get into?

• 1:20:27Speaker 05

  No, so you, you know, you're on an eight day water fast. Tell us, or, or.

• 1:20:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, sorry, I was having some dinner there.

• 1:20:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, no, uh, no, but you're on day seven or eight of a water fast that'll last however long. Tell, like, tell us about that. Tell us, like, in terms of what you've learned, what do you think the, the, the top priorities are? Because you've talked about detoxing. You've talked about, you know, all this shit in our lymphatic system and our bodies that we've been exposed to. Um, and again, like this is, we're talking about veterans and, and, and vet adjacent people right now. But this is good for the general population, I'm sure.

• 1:21:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:21:11Speaker 05

  So.

• 1:21:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm gonna turn that book into a general pop book, too.

• 1:21:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:21:15Speaker 06

  I just, you know, want to focus on the guys first.

• 1:21:17Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:21:17Speaker 06

  But all the civvies are like, hey, I want this. I'm like, a human is a veteran, too.

• 1:21:22Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:21:22Speaker 06

  You can use it.

• 1:21:23Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:21:24Speaker 06

  Um, but my daughter, uh, had cancer when she was one. She had eye cancer. So that's when I really went down the cancer rabbit hole.

• 1:21:34Speaker 06

  So that, that taught the detox and all this and that, but fasting is the ultimate detox. I mean, your body, when it's, when it's not eating bullshit or any food, it will eat up anything it doesn't need. And that's, I'm hoping damaged parts of my brain. That's my newest guinea pig. That's why I'm on this one. Cause I did a spec scan, which scans and shows reactive and, and non-active parts of your brain. And I'm like, uh, the doctor had explained it to me. If those damaged parts are still up there and you get some type of, uh, trigger, it'll cause a cytokine storm up there to once again take over your limbic.

• 1:22:16Speaker 06

  And you're kind of out of control to a point. That's where these people have these super issues. But I'm thinking, well, through autophagy, if we can eat those up, they won't be there.

• 1:22:27Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:22:28Speaker 06

  So I'm kinda sucking this up to see if I can make some of that go away on my next brain scan.

• 1:22:35Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:22:35Speaker 06

  I'm getting one next month. So as I said, I guinea pig myself all the time.

• 1:22:39Speaker 05

  And particularly with, I mean, if we're talking about other parts of the body, you know, autophagy is one thing. When we're talking about the brain, though, and neuroplasticity and the idea that the brain can

• 1:22:48Speaker 06

  Totally.

• 1:22:49Speaker 05

  create new pathways, then the brain, like autophagy in the brain, potentially is great. I potentially has a greater result than anywhere in the body, right?

• 1:23:01Speaker 06

  Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I mean, we all have fat we don't need, but we all have scar tissue. We all have any, everybody has some kind of cancer tumors and they may be microscopic. But, you know, you can eat those up.

• 1:23:18Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:23:18Speaker 06

  A buddy of mine had breast cancer and I put him on a pretty rigid two month thing. And by the time he got to the surgery, the tumors were gone.

• 1:23:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:23:28Speaker 06

  They still butchered him. I'm like, okay, good job. But no, I've got some modalities that people were like crazy about, you know, the, the radio frequency stuff. Totally believe in it. Seen it work. The Royal Rife machines totally works. You can kill most diseases and cancers with the, with the frequency.

• 1:23:50Speaker 06

  That's a Havana syndrome and all this. They're like, oh, we don't know what it is. I'm like, you liars. We invented this.

• 1:23:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, we invented all that.

• 1:24:01Speaker 06

  But detox, man, I mean, fasting is, I mean, it clears your mind. I mean, my mind gets hyperactive when, after day three or four.

• 1:24:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:24:09Speaker 06

  It kills all the parasites in you. Everybody, what parasites? I'm like, your dog and cats get parasite medicine, right?

• 1:24:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Speaker 06

  Or why are you special? Um, so no, I, I feel light years better after fast.

• 1:24:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:24:26Speaker 06

  It's just good to do as a maintenance, you know?

• 1:24:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Someone told me, and I was pretty skeptical of what he told me, but now I'm listening to you. Maybe he was on to something, that fasting is actually a way to head off Alzheimer's disease.

• 1:24:41Speaker 06

  Of course, I think so.

• 1:24:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:42Speaker 06

  I think it's because you haven't detoxed enough and you've got plaque up in there. Well, you know, I totally think so.

• 1:24:51Speaker 06

  It's people who's never detoxed. Why does it happen later in life?

• 1:24:55Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:24:55Speaker 06

  It's accumulation. We are a filter. Our whole body is a host, a system of filters. If you never clean a filter and your car's 75 years old, how's it gonna run on Iraqi gas?

• 1:25:11Speaker 06

  It's no brainer. I totally believe it to be that.

• 1:25:14Jack Murphy?

  And especially considering that for many of us, half the food that we eat isn't even food. It's not even real food.

• 1:25:24Speaker 06

  You have to change that.

• 1:25:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Speaker 06

  Gotta eat whole food, man.

• 1:25:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, I, I, you know, we all love it, but it's not good for us. We have to eat the whole foods. Don't go to the inside of the grocery store. Stick to the edges. Call it a day.

• 1:25:39Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:39Speaker 06

  Treat it like fuel, man. Don't treat it like entertainment.

• 1:25:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:44Speaker 06

  And, uh, go straight Korean. You can't, can't be, that's about as keto as you can get.

• 1:25:49Jack Murphy?

  Korean?

• 1:25:49Speaker 06

  Um, but just think of yourselves as filters, you know, you do a liver flush, you do, you know, this and that. When you see the results, you gotta go, man, that's, something's gotta be there, you know? There, there's just no way that's good for me.

• 1:26:04Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:04Speaker 06

  If I don't clean it out, you know? I mean, we can get very grotesque into this. I have many examples, but you know, you gotta do that spiritually too with some of these plant meds. You know, I was, I've never done any dope in my life and then I went straight to ayahuasca. I'm like, holy shit, you know, jumping right in.

• 1:26:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Speaker 06

  And, um, that got rid of a lot of stuff. You have no idea what it is.

• 1:26:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:29Speaker 06

  You know, past traumas and this and that, and I, I saw things that.

• 1:26:34Speaker 06

  Broaden the horizon, you know, and then when you get into DMT, that's where you're gonna learn your consciousness. I mean, I wouldn't believe people of what I discovered uh, doing that, and it helped immensely, immensely. But you gotta go to the proper practitioners, you know, you can't be uh, just making this shit up in the back alley.

• 1:26:57Speaker 05

  It it can't just be at a rave somewhere?

• 1:26:59Speaker 06

  No, pretty sure.

• 1:27:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, it it's it's fascinating stuff. I mean, so in addition to the book, is there, uh, are you on social media? Is there any place people can follow you, follow your work?

• 1:27:17Speaker 06

  Not really. I mean, I'm on Instagram, but just to pimp the book.

• 1:27:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:27:20Speaker 06

  I uh, I loathe all that stuff.

• 1:27:23Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:27:23Speaker 06

  And uh,

• 1:27:25Speaker 06

  uh, no, I don't keep up on any of that stuff, but I'm I'm on there per se. But I still have the websites, you know, for the books and if somebody does want something done that they wanna pay enough to do it, I'll do it.

• 1:27:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:27:41Speaker 06

  Just working on healing and helping other people right now. I started a foundation, really haven't got it running too hard yet, but I kinda get tired of some of these foundations that will only do certain things for guys when they need five other things.

• 1:27:53Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:27:54Speaker 06

  You know, so when I get money in there and a guy needs five things, I get him five things.

• 1:27:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:27:59Speaker 06

  You know, not just, well, we only do this one. I'm like, well, that's not gonna work. So that's kinda like what I'm up to right now, and it's, I haven't really had time because I've been dealing with a bunch of my TBI stuff. And uh, but as I get time, I'll I'll do a lot more of that.

• 1:28:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:28:19Speaker 05

  And the book is on Amazon and there'll be a link down in the description.

• 1:28:23Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:28:38Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:28:49Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:28:54Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:29:00Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:29:20Speaker 10

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• 1:29:49Jack Murphy?

  For anyone who wants to check that out. Anything else we want to jump into?

• 1:29:56Speaker 05

  No, Eric, it's been awesome, man. It's, it's, you know.

• 1:29:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, I appreciate it.

• 1:30:00Speaker 05

  No, we, we do appreciate it.

• 1:30:02Speaker 06

  I'll come up to New York one day. I'm not a fan of New York, but I'd like to see you guys.

• 1:30:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, man, please do. We'd love to have you.

• 1:30:07Speaker 05

  I'm not a fan of New York either, so.

• 1:30:11Speaker 06

  I remember.

• 1:30:14Speaker 12

  Got a couple of questions.

• 1:30:15Speaker 06

  Get you a helmet, Dave, riding the subway.

• 1:30:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:30:17Jack Murphy?

  We have a couple of viewer questions for you, Eric.

• 1:30:20Speaker 06

  Oh, jeez.

• 1:30:21Speaker 12

  They're not that bad. From Matt, what is your proudest moment in your life? And thanks for coming on today, he said.

• 1:30:29Speaker 06

  Oh, man. There's a couple of them, but I obviously can't bring them up here. But I learned out, they're like, hey, we, we just briefed POTUS on what you guys did. And I'm like, what's a POTUS? And that's how hillbilly I was back in the day. So, I mean, there's some great ones, but, you know, not for this podcast, but one day maybe.

• 1:30:52Jack Murphy?

  All right, one more question. What's it like building and selling a government contracting company?

• 1:30:59Speaker 06

  Well, I would have done it a lot differently. I would have had a board of advisors and I would have cashed out 10 times more. But back then, I was so hard-headed and so correct that I didn't listen to a lot of smart people. I did okay. But, you know, I could have done 10 times. You know, I mean, just look at Mike Knoll there at Blackwater or Blackhawk. Mike had a great team. I mean, he was always one to answer the phone if he called and he'd tell you anything you need to hear. But he cashed out at 180, you know, and a great guy doing it. He didn't have to cut throats. He didn't have to, you know, be corrupt. Ran

• 1:31:40Speaker 06

  a good business, but he had really good advisors. So, you know, hindsight, crystal clear. I didn't have enough smart guys going, Eric, stop doing that.

• 1:31:54Jack Murphy?

  Well, that's, that's it. All done on questions. I hope people will go and check out the book. I have to go and start like searching for your manuals again now that I know that they're all out there. But thank you, Eric. Really appreciate this interview.

• 1:32:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, thanks for dragging me out to do it because I was kind of dragging my feet a little bit. The D stayed on me.

• 1:32:17Jack Murphy?

  Well, you come through New York, we'd love to have you. You come on in here and shoot the shit a bit.

• 1:32:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, I gotta see if I got any warrants up there first, but yeah.

• 1:32:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, you might want to check that out.

• 1:32:28Speaker 05

  I, I know some people. Well, probably, maybe we can fix those.

• 1:32:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, please. Thanks for having me, guys.

• 1:32:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, thank you, brother. We deeply appreciate you, man.

• 1:32:39Jack Murphy?

  And thanks, everyone who joined us tonight. And we'll see all of you guys next time. We got two episodes coming up on Wednesday. I don't know how they're going to be released. Dee will have to work on that, but we got more coming for you.

• 1:32:52Speaker 06

  We're working hard over here. So like and subscribe.

• 1:32:57Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show. If you've been watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this, you can check out our Patreon. It is patreon.com/the Team House. And for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of The Team House ad-free. The same goes with our affiliated podcast Eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons, McMulroy. That one, you will also get all of those episodes ad-free. And you support the channel and the show, and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has helped this company, this small business survive, especially during our early years. And you are

• 1:33:42Jack Murphy?

  what continues to help this thing going, even as we navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. So we really appreciate all of you guys. There's going to be a link down in the description to that Patreon page. And there is also going to be a link to our new merch shop. So if you guys want to go and get some Team House merchandise, we got stickers, and we also have patches. And I should mention, if you sign up for Patreon at $10 a month, we will mail you this patch as well. So we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale on the merch shop. And additionally, they got t-shirts up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all that

• 1:34:25Jack Murphy?

  good stuff. So please go and check them out and support the show. We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you.

• 1:34:34Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:34:48Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:34:59Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 1:35:05Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:35:10Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:35:30Speaker 13

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• 1:36:07Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:36:21Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:36:32Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:36:37Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:36:43Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:37:03Speaker 13

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• 1:37:39Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:37:54Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way, that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:38:05Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you are not alone.

• 1:38:10Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:38:16Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:38:36Speaker 13

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• 1:39:12Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:39:26Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:39:37Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:39:43Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:39:48Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 1:40:08Speaker 10

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• 1:40:39Speaker 00

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Zolir 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolir, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolir. Zolir may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolir should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic Allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. ZOLAR is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or hardened circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolar.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about ZOLAR.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  This is an advertisement for ZOLAR paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:41:39Speaker 13

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.